Show your Support for Palestine!

[Moon unit]

Not normally a fan of anything to do with Celic' football club and their Green Brigade numpties...but was heartened to see their show of support for Palestine the other night!
would love to see some Palestine flags shown at ER on Sunday as a show of support against the slaughter that is currently happening to the innocent people of Gaza. Before anyone pipes up about being political, this show of support is about showing compassion and a humanitarian display as hundreds of young children have lost their lives in past few weeks!..

[Northernhibee]

Not normally a fan of anything to do with Celic' football club and their Green Brigade numpties...but was heartened to see their show of support for Palestine the other night!
would love to see some Palestine flags shown at ER on Sunday as a show of support against the slaughter that is currently happening to the innocent people of Gaza. Before anyone pipes up about being political, this show of support is about showing compassion and a humanitarian display as hundreds of young children have lost their lives in past few weeks!..

:agree:

[MrSmith]

Yeah I'm in support of the Palestinians too.

[cleanyman]

No chance.

Not at the fitba

[WestEndHibee]

Not normally a fan of anything to do with Celic' football club and their Green Brigade numpties...but was heartened to see their show of support for Palestine the other night!
would love to see some Palestine flags shown at ER on Sunday as a show of support against the slaughter that is currently happening to the innocent people of Gaza. Before anyone pipes up about being political, this show of support is about showing compassion and a humanitarian display as hundreds of young children have lost their lives in past few weeks!..

:agree::agree:

[Thecat23]

Not normally a fan of anything to do with Celic' football club and their Green Brigade numpties...but was heartened to see their show of support for Palestine the other night!
would love to see some Palestine flags shown at ER on Sunday as a show of support against the slaughter that is currently happening to the innocent people of Gaza. Before anyone pipes up about being political, this show of support is about showing compassion and a humanitarian display as hundreds of young children have lost their lives in past few weeks!..

It's a tough one, it's disgusting what's happening out there it really is. But should we be bringing Palestine flags into a football game? Not saying it's wrong mate just that people like to watch football to get away from the everyday stresses of life.

When this starts to flow into the game it causes more arguments IMO and it then sadly does get political. Plenty places to show your support social sites etc, ER for me isn't one.

Nothing against anyone bringing a flag but I wont be.

[Ozyhibby]

I've no problem with it but can see a good flag debate starting.
:-)

[ballengeich]

Admin please move this. I'll respond once it's on the appropriate forum.

[TowerHibs]

If u feel that passionately about it then get out and rally with the men and women that do it every week up the town. Politicians and media are not going to take note at the fitba.

[Moon unit]

It's a tough one, it's disgusting what's happening out there it really is. But should we be bringing Palestine flags into a football game? Not saying it's wrong mate just that people like to watch football to get away from the everyday stresses of life.

When this starts to flow into the game it causes more arguments IMO and it then sadly does get political. Plenty places to show your support social sites etc, ER for me isn't one.

Nothing against anyone bringing a flag but I wont be.

Don't believe in ramming views Down people's throats , just the odd flag to show compassion!
the situation there is horrendous! I knew some people would harp on about keeping politics out of football...but innocent kids are dying, I understand your view and other but I would always like to consider our club to be compassionate.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Nothing to do with sport what so ever. If you are moved to support the Palestinians or indeed not support them, then please find the correct place to do it.

Easter Road is not that place.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Admin please move this. I'll respond once it's on the appropriate forum.



totally agree:agree:

[machibby]

Before anyone pipes up about being political, this show of support is about showing compassion and a humanitarian display as hundreds of young children have lost their lives in past few weeks!..

Don't forget Syria, found this rather sobering infographic.
http://www.countthekids.org/syria/

[Moon unit]

If u feel that passionately about it then get out and rally with the men and women that do it every week up the town. Politicians and media are not going to take note at the fitba.
For your info I have attended the rallies...how do you know politicians and media won't take notice?

[Thecat23]

Don't believe in ramming views Down people's throats , just the odd flag to show compassion!
the situation there is horrendous! I knew some people would harp on about keeping politics out of football...but innocent kids are dying, I understand your view and other but I would always like to consider our club to be compassionate.

It's got to the point I can't read about it as I have a son myself and seeing fathers hold their children is heartbreaking.

I'd be happy to see something on the official site supporting them or even set up a charity like the Dnipro one!

But like I say bud, people will always bring politics into it whether we like it or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FranckSuzy]

Hate to say it but it's not for me. It's terrible what is happening there but IMHO, there's enough political 'nonsense' attached to football already, so it should be at a non-sporting arena that those who wish to show their support can do so.

[Iggy Pope]

Can I ask though? Where is Jeremy Kyle (Vine was my preference ) with his absolute view on this?

[Scouse Hibee]

Not normally a fan of anything to do with Celic' football club and their Green Brigade numpties...but was heartened to see their show of support for Palestine the other night!
would love to see some Palestine flags shown at ER on Sunday as a show of support against the slaughter that is currently happening to the innocent people of Gaza. Before anyone pipes up about being political, this show of support is about showing compassion and a humanitarian display as hundreds of young children have lost their lives in past few weeks!..

It's a tough one this mate, there are plenty of other opportunities to show your support for Palestine and I'm sure you do however I'm not convinced about bringing this into a football stadium and the politics associated with it.

[trev the hat]

Disgusting scenes on the news & nothing short of war crimes IMO but football is not right place for showing support. Plenty of rally's demonstrations have been happening in Scotland in support of the Palestinians in last few days.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/glasgow-aberdeen-protest-israel-s-gaza-assault-1-3482116

[Moon unit]

Nothing to do with sport what so ever. If you are moved to support the Palestinians or indeed not support them, then please find the correct place to do it.

Easter Road is not that place.

If the display of a flag offends you ..I will not bring a flag
but what offends me is the lets pretend this is not happening attitude...."nowt to do do with our precious Fitba"

[jdships]

Admin please move this. I'll respond once it's on the appropriate forum.

:thumbsup::agree::agree:

[Sir David Gray]

It's got nothing at all to do with football and should have no place whatsoever within the confines of a football stadium.

I have very strong views on this topic, which I won't post on the main board, however you can find them easily on the Holy Ground if you wish.

I do not support any sort of political statement being made at a football match, regardless of whether or not it's something I sympathise with.

I go to the football to watch Hibs and that's it. If I wanted to protest about a political cause, I would attend a demonstration.

[.Sean.]

The Palestine/Israel conflict has the square route of **** all to do with football so for that reason I'm out.

[Baldy Foghorn]

If the display of a flag offends you ..I will not bring a flag
but what offends me is the lets pretend this is not happening attitude...."nowt to do do with our precious Fitba"

It has nothing to do with football though, I sure 100% are sympathetic to what's happening world wide, but flags at the match, not for me......

[Moon unit]

:thumbsup::agree::agree:

This was never meant to be a political post but a humanitarian one, also I never meant to upset anyone!..if you wish to remove it do so , I will not comment further, but hope the message struck a chord with some!
GGTTH.

[half.time.draw.]

The Israelis are responding to indiscriminate bombing.
They need to be strong or we will see real genocide in that region.

[O'Rourke3]

FWIW despite the legitimacy of the demo in this case, having created a precedent, then many un(il)legitimate causes will then claim parity. I may be being very uncharitable here but can't help thinking that's at the back of the GB motivation. :tin hat:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Admin please move this. I'll respond once it's on the appropriate forum.

I respect your point of view. But personally I feel it's very much a football matter, although I'm not keen on the idea of the flags. It's up to the admins, and traditionally topics like this go into the Holy Ground.

Thats usually disappointing because, it tends to be a smaller group of people that join the debate. I think people with less interest in politics are more inclined to join in on the main board. I think the topic needs contribution from all types of fan, because it reflects on us as a group.

[clerriehibs]

The Israelis are responding to indiscriminate bombing.
They need to be strong or we will see real genocide in that region.

The israelis are murderous *******s.

[poolman]

Not normally a fan of anything to do with Celic' football club and their Green Brigade numpties...but was heartened to see their show of support for Palestine the other night!
would love to see some Palestine flags shown at ER on Sunday as a show of support against the slaughter that is currently happening to the innocent people of Gaza. Before anyone pipes up about being political, this show of support is about showing compassion and a humanitarian display as hundreds of young children have lost their lives in past few weeks!..


Keep this away from here

[poolman]

I respect your point of view. But personally I feel it's very much a football matter, although I'm not keen on the idea of the flags. It's up to the admins, and traditionally topics like this go into the Holy Ground.

Thats usually disappointing because, it tends to be a smaller group of people that join the debate. I think people with less interest in politics are more inclined to join in on the main board. I think the topic needs contribution from all types of fan, because it reflects on us as a group.

Very much a football matter

WTF You must be on something

[LioNeilMessi]

Raises awareness I suppose. Alternatively you could donate the flag money to a Gaza aid charity (not done it myself so can't advise which charity).

[Baader]

It is horrific what is going on over there - and complex in its history too. But I always feel that linking wars like that in any way to the too-often fickle world of football belittles what is a genuine humanitarian crisis. Should we be flying Ukranian or Dutch flags in support also?

[Sir David Gray]

Don't believe in ramming views Down people's throats , just the odd flag to show compassion!
the situation there is horrendous! I knew some people would harp on about keeping politics out of football...but innocent kids are dying, I understand your view and other but I would always like to consider our club to be compassionate.

Three innocent Israeli kids were kidnapped and murdered last month by Palestinian militants, which was the incident which triggered this latest spell of violence.

Why not wave a few Israeli flags in support of their families as well?

[Sir David Gray]

The Israelis are responding to indiscriminate bombing.
They need to be strong or we will see real genocide in that region.

:agree: Spot on but I would get ready for a major backlash on here if previous discussions I've had on this topic are anything to go by.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Very much a football matter

WTF You must be on something

Thanks for your robust challenge.

I meant in respect of the way it's impinging on football. As I said, I don't like the idea of flags at the game, but if others feel its appropriate, they should be able to debate it with as many fans as possible.

Hope that clarifies it.

[Baader]

I meant in respect of the way it's impinging on football. As I said, I don't like the idea of flags at the game, but if others feel its appropriate, they should be able to debate it with as many fans as possible.

Engaging in political debate is something to be encouraged. I just don't believe the place to do it is at a football match.

[heretoday]

Why bring a political issue into a football ground? Just because there is a crowd there? You are as well taking your flag to a theatre or a rail station. There's crowds there too. When we are at the football we like to escape from the world for a bit.

[Just Alf]

No chance.

Not at the fitba


:top marks

[Just Alf]

Three innocent Israeli kids were kidnapped and murdered last month by Palestinian militants, which was the incident which triggered this latest spell of violence.

Why not wave a few Israeli flags in support of their families as well?


You're not wrong.... but then again a Palestinian kid was kidnapped and forced to drink petrol before being set alight..... the whole thing is a nightmare

[lord bunberry]

Why show support for this conflict and not others, is the loss of life in Gazza more tragic than the loss of life in other conflicts.

[Pete]

Why show support for this conflict and not others, is the loss of life in Gazza more tragic than the loss of life in other conflicts.

Exactly. Look at the news feeds from Africa and the horrors that go on there. The situation in the Middle East isn't nice but as a planet, we have more pressing issues and places to sort out when it comes to suffering.

It shouldn't have anything to do with football though. It'll get to the stage where the games will kick off at 3.15 as the first 15 will be taken up by a weekly slot involving speeches on racism, sexism and homophobia, followed by an applause, followed by a silence, followed by a moment to think about world conflict and capped off with a moment to reflect on our lives and think about how we can improve society as a collective.

:dizzy:

It's a game of fitba' and in all honesty I just want to turn up and watch some sport.

[Lewis77]

The Israelis are responding to indiscriminate bombing.
They need to be strong or we will see real genocide in that region.

What do you think Israel has been doing to Palestine? Palestinians now live under a system which is akin to apartheid. Israel continues to occupy and colonise Palestinian land in direct violation of United Nations resolutions, of the International Quartet Road Map, of the commitments that leaders of Israel have made at Camp David and Oslo promising that Israel would withdraw from occupied territories, which they have failed to do. These are facts my friend.

Israel are herding Palestinians into an overcrowded walled off area where they are deprived of free trade and denied freedom of travel. Palestinians can't travel on Israeli only roads within Palestinian land! What would you do if you were Palestinian?

Just look how Palestinian territory has diminished since the formation of the State of Israel. Look how many Palestinians have died, how many Palestinian refugees there are in Jordan and other surrounding nations, it's not thousands, it's millions! Once again, what would you do if you were Palestinian?

Now the UK government won't back a U.N. investigation into human rights abuse in Gaza?

It's like a spell has been cast over a great sway of people that either refuse or simply can't see what has and what is happening. The irony is staggering!

Also I don't believe the original posters intent was to take a side, more to show support for a people who are enduring horrendous persecution at the hands of another. Once more, the irony is staggering!

Why won't folks just wake up to what is and has happened? Is it down to some misplaced sympathy for Jewish folk post world war two? I had a grandfather and two uncles who fought the Nazis and I've been brought up to recognise persecution under slight of hand politics. Once again, the irony is staggering!

[Gatecrasher]

No Thanks, keep this stuff away from ER IMO.

[Scott Allan Key]

You're not wrong.... but then again a Palestinian kid was kidnapped and forced to drink petrol before being set alight..... the whole thing is a nightmare

He might be wrong. Police in Israel did not respond to calls for help from missing teenagers. Most suspicious.

If children mean nothing to them in Gaza, what's the likelihood they would kill their 'own' for political capital and to steal the Gazan gas reserves?

They knowingly bombed a school, disabled home, hospitals, places of worship. Jeremy Bowen has recently stated the Gazans are not and never have used human shields. And why would they? IDF have clearly shown they will actively target innocent women, men and children. Families. How would one feel if it was your own?

It isn't? Oh? I'm alright Jack.

The anti-Muslim rhetoric has worked. They're not human to the apologists and we're better off dealing with problems that involve fellow humankind.

FWIW, I am completely opposed to targetting civilians whether it is by initially Mossad funded Hamas or any other group.

As for football flags, no thanks. Some Rangers' dafties wave Israeli flags at Celtic fans waving Palestinian flags. And never the twain shall meet. Which is the only way there will be peace if people recognise each others as potential equals and not by racial or tribal identities.

[hibsbollah]

Not normally a fan of anything to do with Celic' football club and their Green Brigade numpties...but was heartened to see their show of support for Palestine the other night!
would love to see some Palestine flags shown at ER on Sunday as a show of support against the slaughter that is currently happening to the innocent people of Gaza. Before anyone pipes up about being political, this show of support is about showing compassion and a humanitarian display as hundreds of young children have lost their lives in past few weeks!..

On one hand, I'd feel proud of my club if a few individuals chose to fly the Palestinian flag. Its your right to do so. On the other hand, the problem is, in the context of scottish fitbaw it has become just another piece of sectarian tokenism, thanks to the old firm, and the meaning would be diluted.

My advice would be to write to your mp or donate to a charity is probably the best course of action if you feel moved by what you're seeing in Gaza.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Engaging in political debate is something to be encouraged. I just don't believe the place to do it is at a football match.

Neither do I. I do think that others might disagree, and might have benefitted from having it discussed on the main board though.

After all, there are other non- football topics that manage to stay on there, like the advert for staff for the Easter Road bookies.

[Pretty Boy]

Not for me.

I attend rallies in support of the Palestinian people regularly, there's another being organised for Edinburgh shortly if anyone is interested, but this doesn't belong at the football. You have a big cross section of the population with a wide range of views and it's just likely to cause grief.

[Pretty Boy]

Political flags at the football risk making you look daft anyway.

Remember these dafties when Rangers played in Israel, Nazi salutes and an Israel flag. There's not a facepalm big enough.

[Pretty Boy]

The Israelis are responding to indiscriminate bombing.
They need to be strong or we will see real genocide in that region.

We are all ready seeing real genocide in the region.

Some response though 800 Palestinians dead in under 3 weeks with about 30 Israelis yet it's the Palestinians guilty of 'indiscriminate bombing'?

[Betty Boop]

The israelis are murderous *******s.

Yes. The most moral army in the world (pass me the sick bucket) using flechette missiles on civilians, in one of the most densely populated areas in the region, bombing schools, hospitals and mosques, and firing on ambulances as they try to reach the injured.

[ballengeich]

We are all ready seeing real genocide in the region.

Some response though 800 Palestinians dead in under 3 weeks with about 30 Israelis yet it's the Palestinians guilty of 'indiscriminate bombing'?

There are many valid criticisms that can be directed at Israel, but genocide is not one. The country's Arab population has increased from around 150,000 in 1948 to over 1 million now. If that's genocide it's the most unsuccessful genocide in history. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary to find out what the word means.

If you want to find an aspiration to genocide read the Hamas charter. From the safety of Qatar the organisation's head is urging his subordinates to sacrifice more of themselves. The loss of life is sad, but in a conflict the weaker side loses more people - that's not genocide. Why do Hamas undertake action involving war crimes which they know will bring retaliation which will kill a number of their own fellow citizens? The people with the least concern for the lives of Gaza's people are its own corrupt, racist leaders.

[stoneyburn hibs]

It's nothing to do with football but IMO any outlet to show support for the Palestinians during this latest round of genocide should be used. Even to try and get the message across to the British government, who say or do nothing regarding the Israeli slaughter of ordinary people.

[Betty Boop]

There are many valid criticisms that can be directed at Israel, but genocide is not one. The country's Arab population has increased from around 150,000 in 1948 to over 1 million now. If that's genocide it's the most unsuccessful genocide in history. Perhaps you should consult a dictionary to find out what the word means.

If you want to find an aspiration to genocide read the Hamas charter. From the safety of Qatar the organisation's head is urging his subordinates to sacrifice more of themselves. The loss of life is sad, but in a conflict the weaker side loses more people - that's not genocide. Why do Hamas undertake action involving war crimes which they know will bring retaliation which will kill a number of their own fellow citizens? The people with the least concern for the lives of Gaza's people are its own corrupt, racist leaders.

So to punish Hamas which in case you've forgot, is part of a Unity Government with Fatah, Israel has to bomb and shell the civilian population of Gaza ? Why doesn't Israel withdraw from the occupied territories, lift the blockade, stop the assassinations, and start meaningful negotiations with the new Unity Government ?

[hibsbollah]

The people with the least concern for the lives of Gaza's people are its own corrupt, racist leaders.

What laughable nonsense. So Israel has more 'concern' for the Palestinians than Hamas? Do you have access to any news outlets? Did you see the carnage at the school yesterday? Does Israel bear no responsibility for its actions, ever, in this biased, partial world you inhabit? I would like to see, just for a change, you and your ilk to step outside your apologists bubble and call an atrocity an atrocity, regardless of the provocation.

[ballengeich]

Yes. The most moral army in the world (pass me the sick bucket) using flechette missiles on civilians, in one of the most densely populated areas in the region, bombing schools, hospitals and mosques, and firing on ambulances as they try to reach the injured.

In contrast of course to the peaceful Palestinian combatants who've handed flowers to their Israeli neighbours over the decades. As an aside, you seem to have agreed with Clerriehibs' summary of an entire nation of millions of people in one sentence. Try replacing the word Israeli by some other national group and reflect on how you'd react to the statement.


So to punish Hamas which in case you've forgot, is part of a Unity Government with Fatah, Israel has to bomb and shell the civilian population of Gaza ? Why doesn't Israel withdraw from the occupied territories, lift the blockade, stop the assassinations, and start meaningful negotiations with the new Unity Government ?

Why doesn't Hamas stop its attacks on Israel's civilian population, abandon its aspiration to genocide and accept Israel's existence?

[ballengeich]

What laughable nonsense. So Israel has more 'concern' for the Palestinians than Hamas? Do you have access to any news outlets? Did you see the carnage at the school yesterday? Does Israel bear no responsibility for its actions, ever, in this biased, partial world you inhabit? I would like to see, just for a change, you and your ilk to step outside your apologists bubble and call an atrocity an atrocity, regardless of the provocation.

I'm quite prepared to call atrocities by either side. My point about Gaza's leaders is that they undertake attacks on Israel's civilian population in the knowledge that at some point there will be retaliation in which a number of their own population will die. These deaths are then useful for propaganda. To me, that's the action of people with no concern for their own fellow citizens.

[hibsbollah]

I'm quite prepared to call atrocities by either side. My point about Gaza's leaders is that they undertake attacks on Israel's civilian population in the knowledge that at some point there will be retaliation in which a number of their own population will die. These deaths are then useful for propaganda. To me, that's the action of people with no concern for their own fellow citizens.

Its this kind of fatuous anti-logic that allowed Blair and Bush to claim that every civilian death in consecutive wars are the culpability of the enemy. Those pesky insurgents deliberately station themselves next to schools and hospitals, or dare to respond with virtually obsolete military hardware)so we wring our hands and regretfully blame the evil leaders of these dead civilians for their deaths. (The Luftwaffe used the same rationale to defend civilan deaths in the blitz...Why are all those Eastenders living next to the docks anyway if not to act as human shields?).

Thankfully the UN is unequivocal, it is the responsibility of an army to ensure that innocent civilians are not affected by military intervention. And by any measure of scale, Hamas rocket attacks on civilians are not in the same ballpark. The IDF are clearly committing a warcrime under any application of these tests. Those dead children of the last few weeks are as innocent as if they attended Sciennes or Leith Academy, instead of Ramallah or Gaza or equivalent.

Its all disgusting.

[Betty Boop]

In contrast of course to the peaceful Palestinian combatants who've handed flowers to their Israeli neighbours over the decades. As an aside, you seem to have agreed with Clerriehibs' summary of an entire nation of millions of people in one sentence. Try replacing the word Israeli by some other national group and reflect on how you'd react to the statement.



Why doesn't Hamas stop its attacks on Israel's civilian population, abandon its aspiration to genocide and accept Israel's existence?

Can't speak for Clerriehibs but I think he was speaking about the IDF ? Do you really think Israel as an occupying force has the right to demand anything ?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Its this kind of fatuous anti-logic that allowed Blair and Bush to claim that every civilian death in consecutive wars are the culpability of the enemy. Those pesky insurgents deliberately station themselves next to schools and hospitals, or dare to respond with virtually obsolete military hardware)so we wring our hands and regretfully blame the evil leaders of these dead civilians for their deaths. (The Luftwaffe used the same rationale to defend civilan deaths in the blitz...Why are all those Eastenders living next to the docks anyway if not to act as human shields?).

Thankfully the UN is unequivocal, it is the responsibility of an army to ensure that innocent civilians are not affected by military intervention. And by any measure of scale, Hamas rocket attacks on civilians are not in the same ballpark. The IDF are clearly committing a warcrime under any application of these tests. Those dead children of the last few weeks are as innocent as if they attended Sciennes or Leith Academy, instead of Ramallah or Gaza or equivalent.

Its all disgusting.

At least Bomber Harris was honest.

[lord bunberry]

What always amazes me about this conflict. Is that it manages to polarise opinion as much as it does. The fact is for there to be peace both sides must be totally committed to ending the conflict. Both sides are engaging in acts of war, both sides say they want an end to the conflict, but both sides set conditions on peace that they know that the other side will never agree to. If there was compromise on both sides the killing could stop tomorrow, it's got way past who's right and who's wrong, innocent people have been dying for decades and will continue to die until the two sides reach a compromise.

[allmodcons]

Interesting thread with some really strong views on both sides of the divide.

I have genuine sympathy for the people of Palestine and the predicament they find themselves in. It doesn't half puts things into perspective when you see the daily 'goings on' in that part of the world.

The Israelis are brutal in defence of their territory. For me, this stems from a sense of shame at the helpless situation they found themsleves in when faced with Hitler and his attempt to 'cleanse' the world of Jews. I can see why the Israelis are the way they are! Having confronted their past the have a mentality now that says "never again". They trust nobody and, given their recent history, I can see why.

That said, what they are doing to the Palestinian people is just plain wrong. Here we have a situation where the military might of a highly sophisticated army is indiscriminately bombing, killing and maiming an unprotected civilian population. There can be no justification for this but, I continually ask myself, why Hamas won't stop lobbing rockets into Israeli territory? For me, this gives the Israelis an excuse to carry on with the brutal suppression of the Palestinians?

Maybe someone with a little more knowledge of the subject can answer the question. Why does Hamas not want to agree to a ceasefire and put a stop to, what is, without doubt disproportionate Israeli retaliation?

[Betty Boop]

Interesting thread with some really strong views on both sides of the divide.

I have genuine sympathy for the people of Palestine and the predicament they find themselves in. It doesn't half puts things into perspective when you see the daily 'goings on' in that part of the world.

The Israelis are brutal in defence of their territory. For me, this stems from a sense of shame at the helpless situation they found themsleves in when faced with Hitler and his attempt to 'cleanse' the world of Jews. I can see why the Israelis are the way they are! Having confronted their past the have a mentality now that says "never again". They trust nobody and, given their recent history, I can see why.

That said, what they are doing to the Palestinian people is just plain wrong. Here we have a situation where the military might of a highly sophisticated army is indiscriminately bombing, killing and maiming an unprotected civilian population. There can be no justification for this but, I continually ask myself, why Hamas won't stop lobbing rockets into Israeli territory? For me, this gives the Israelis an excuse to carry on with the brutal suppression of the Palestinians?

Maybe someone with a little more knowledge of the subject can answer the question. Why does Hamas not want to agree to a ceasefire and put a stop to, what is, without doubt disproportionate Israeli retaliation?

Have a read of this.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39212.htm

[ballengeich]

Can't speak for Clerriehibs but I think he was speaking about the IDF ?

Perhaps. If so it could have been more accurately put.

Do you really think Israel as an occupying force has the right to demand anything ?

I think that Israel has the same right as any other country to demand that its neighbours don't attempt its destruction. There's no justification for some of the things it does, but some people forget the nature of some of its enemies.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Interesting thread with some really strong views on both sides of the divide.

I have genuine sympathy for the people of Palestine and the predicament they find themselves in. It doesn't half puts things into perspective when you see the daily 'goings on' in that part of the world.

The Israelis are brutal in defence of their territory. For me, this stems from a sense of shame at the helpless situation they found themsleves in when faced with Hitler and his attempt to 'cleanse' the world of Jews. I can see why the Israelis are the way they are! Having confronted their past the have a mentality now that says "never again". They trust nobody and, given their recent history, I can see why.

That said, what they are doing to the Palestinian people is just plain wrong. Here we have a situation where the military might of a highly sophisticated army is indiscriminately bombing, killing and maiming an unprotected civilian population. There can be no justification for this but, I continually ask myself, why Hamas won't stop lobbing rockets into Israeli territory? For me, this gives the Israelis an excuse to carry on with the brutal suppression of the Palestinians?

Maybe someone with a little more knowledge of the subject can answer the question. Why does Hamas not want to agree to a ceasefire and put a stop to, what is, without doubt disproportionate Israeli retaliation?

The history of Zionism stretches back to before Hitler though, and so does anti semitism. That said, they use the holocaust to excuse too much, and tend to forget that other people died as a result of the Nazis, as well.

These days, when we discuss the war, it tends to focus on those killed in the gas chambers. But Britain lost many lives, and suffered great damage, would that justify us attacking Hamburg again, "just in case".

It wasn't Hitler that invented the saying "an eye for an eye", and it could be argued thar they maybe think that approach works for them, but others could say it doesn't do them any favours.

I think their behaviour is shameless, immoral and cruel, and whatever their history, they cannot be justified in the way they act. Sorry, I am very cynical about Zionism and believe that they are capable of anything, including murdering their own people to provoke a war.

[hibsbollah]

Maybe someone with a little more knowledge of the subject can answer the question. Why does Hamas not want to agree to a ceasefire?

Hamas demand the end of Israels seven year old blockade of the occupied territories first. This blockade has made normal functioning of a state impossible because of daily power cuts, no running water, food shortages, no trade etc. Since the military coup there last year, Egypt too has also effectively blockaded Gaza by closing the Rafah border crossing, meaning Gaza is nothing more than a prison. The 'terror tunnels' we hear so much about that lead from Gaza to Egypt are a direct result of the blockade.

So there has been an economic and racial war, very much like what happened in the bantu system in apartheid south africa, that predates current hostilities. And of course the Arab Israeli conflict predates the existence of Hamas and the rise of 21st century Islamism. In those days, the secular PLO were the 'obstacles to peace'.

[TheReg!]

We are all ready seeing real genocide in the region.

Some response though 800 Palestinians dead in under 3 weeks with about 30 Israelis yet it's the Palestinians guilty of 'indiscriminate bombing'?


I hear what you are saying mate however the Palestinians are just as guilty of indiscriminate bombing as well as the IDF, the only difference is the IDF have the Iron dome shooting down the Majority of the rockets. I have no time for either tbh, Israel have really taken the piss but if the shoe was on the other foot i guarantee the Palestinians would be as bad if not worse than the Israelis, its a giant **** sandwich that the both have to bite to sort this out.

PB, i think it may have been you who summed it up by saying the Old Firms nonsense with the set of flags has just watered it down to there bigotry levels.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think that Israel has the same right as any other country to demand that its neighbours don't attempt its destruction. There's no justification for some of the things it does, but some people forget the nature of some of its enemies.

Are you saying there is no justification or not? Your last sentence isn't entirely clear.

[ballengeich]

Its this kind of fatuous anti-logic that allowed Blair and Bush to claim that every civilian death in consecutive wars are the culpability of the enemy. Those pesky insurgents deliberately station themselves next to schools and hospitals, or dare to respond with virtually obsolete military hardware)so we wring our hands and regretfully blame the evil leaders of these dead civilians for their deaths. (The Luftwaffe used the same rationale to defend civilan deaths in the blitz...Why are all those Eastenders living next to the docks anyway if not to act as human shields?).



I did not claim that innocents are responsible for their own sufferiing. I pointed out that Hamas repeatedly undertake policies that damage their own people more than their supposed enemies. If I had the misfortune to be a citizen of Gaza I'd want leaders with more concern for my safety.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I did not claim that innocents are responsible for their own sufferiing. I pointed out that Hamas repeatedly undertake policies that damage their own people more than their supposed enemies. If I had the misfortune to be a citizen of Gaza I'd want leaders with more concern for my safety.

Sounds fair, I wasn't particularly impressed by the answers from either side on TV last night.

[hibsbollah]

I did not claim that innocents are responsible for their own sufferiing. I pointed out that Hamas repeatedly undertake policies that damage their own people more than their supposed enemies. If I had the misfortune to be a citizen of Gaza I'd want leaders with more concern for my safety.

I know what you said. Their 'supposed' :hilarious enemies (your phrase) have been raining bombs down on innocent civilians for weeks now. If I had the misfortune to be a citizen of Gaza I'd be blaming the IDF for dropping the bombs. And so would you.

[ballengeich]

Are you saying there is no justification or not? Your last sentence isn't entirely clear.

Israel does things which can't be justified.

My last sentence was directed at people who look only at Israel's wrong actions. As has been pointed out in other posts the debate then becomes like an old firm dispute.

[Jack]

44 ongoing armed conflicts in the world just now, the Israeli – Palestinian conflict is a comparatively small one.

Not to mention the countries that have lost civilians; men, women and children as a result of these conflicts who aren't even involved.

How many flags should we fly?

I think I know how many!

[heretoday]

Interesting debate on this thread.

Keep it away from ER though eh?

[stoneyburn hibs]

44 ongoing armed conflicts in the world just now, the Israeli – Palestinian conflict is a comparatively small one.

Not to mention the countries that have lost civilians; men, women and children as a result of these conflicts who aren't even involved.


How many flags should we fly?

I think I know how many!

It's every year that the Israel pound the Palestinians

[Lucius Apuleius]

Anybody want to fly a flag for the hundreds being bombed and murdered by Boko Haram on a daily basis? Or even for the 100 plus young girls still being held spmewhere?

[Jack]

It's every year that the Israel pound the Palestinians

1948 officially*.

To add to my previous post its not the longest running conflict either and nowhere near the largest loss of life.

My sympathies lie more with the Palestinians, based on the high number of broken/ignored UN Resolutions set against Israel since then which tells its own story through the decades.

My point was that each of these conflicts are equally sad in terms of human life. Do we, as a support, draw a line somewhere that says some conflicts are OK to become involved with and others are not, and who decides which side we align with?

As a support there is only one thing we all agree on, Hibs, and sometimes I wonder about that!



* The folk that keep these stats may have to reconsider the Russian and Ukraine situation, currently 2014, and reopen WW1.

[Sir David Gray]

In contrast of course to the peaceful Palestinian combatants who've handed flowers to their Israeli neighbours over the decades. As an aside, you seem to have agreed with Clerriehibs' summary of an entire nation of millions of people in one sentence. Try replacing the word Israeli by some other national group and reflect on how you'd react to the statement.



Why doesn't Hamas stop its attacks on Israel's civilian population, abandon its aspiration to genocide and accept Israel's existence?

First and foremost, Hamas is an Islamist organisation, whose number one goal is to obliterate the state of Israel and to establish an Islamic state in the entire region. They may masquerade as a legitimate government but they shouldn't fool anyone. At the moment they are pushing for things that seem perfectly reasonable, the blockade to be lifted, for Israel to pull their troops out of Gaza etc. However if/when this happens, they'll keep pushing until they exert more of an influence in the region and they will then attempt to achieve their long term aims. They have no interest in living peacefully side by side with Israel as its neighbour.

Hamas hates Israel with a passion and can't stand the fact that they are living next door to a Jewish state on land that they consider to be Islamic.

If they do the things that you suggest then they would need to rewrite their whole raison d'etre.


Interesting thread with some really strong views on both sides of the divide.

I have genuine sympathy for the people of Palestine and the predicament they find themselves in. It doesn't half puts things into perspective when you see the daily 'goings on' in that part of the world.

The Israelis are brutal in defence of their territory. For me, this stems from a sense of shame at the helpless situation they found themsleves in when faced with Hitler and his attempt to 'cleanse' the world of Jews. I can see why the Israelis are the way they are! Having confronted their past the have a mentality now that says "never again". They trust nobody and, given their recent history, I can see why.

That said, what they are doing to the Palestinian people is just plain wrong. Here we have a situation where the military might of a highly sophisticated army is indiscriminately bombing, killing and maiming an unprotected civilian population. There can be no justification for this but, I continually ask myself, why Hamas won't stop lobbing rockets into Israeli territory? For me, this gives the Israelis an excuse to carry on with the brutal suppression of the Palestinians?

Maybe someone with a little more knowledge of the subject can answer the question. Why does Hamas not want to agree to a ceasefire and put a stop to, what is, without doubt disproportionate Israeli retaliation?

As I've suggested above in response to ballengeich, Hamas has no interest in making peace with Israel.

They don't care about the people who are dying in Gaza. This is a group whose members have been known to blow themselves up in countless attacks on Israel in the past and who have even dressed their young children up in suicide bomb belts as means of propaganda.

We are talking about a group of people who have very little regard for the value of human life. In fact, to them, if you die whilst fighting against Israel you are considered a martyr.

All they're interested in is promoting their Islamist ideology. Everything else pales into insignificance.


I hear what you are saying mate however the Palestinians are just as guilty of indiscriminate bombing as well as the IDF, the only difference is the IDF have the Iron dome shooting down the Majority of the rockets. I have no time for either tbh, Israel have really taken the piss but if the shoe was on the other foot i guarantee the Palestinians would be as bad if not worse than the Israelis, its a giant **** sandwich that the both have to bite to sort this out.

PB, i think it may have been you who summed it up by saying the Old Firms nonsense with the set of flags has just watered it down to there bigotry levels.

Yep. Without their Iron Dome defence system, the loss of life on Israel's side would be huge.


So to punish Hamas which in case you've forgot, is part of a Unity Government with Fatah, Israel has to bomb and shell the civilian population of Gaza ? Why doesn't Israel withdraw from the occupied territories, lift the blockade, stop the assassinations, and start meaningful negotiations with the new Unity Government ?

This is the new Unity Government, which includes Hamas, which as an organisation was recently complicit in the kidnap and murder of three teenagers from Israel, indiscriminately fires hundreds of rockets into Israel on a daily basis and openly admits that one of its main aims is to wipe the Israelis off the face of the Earth and wants the entire region to be an Islamist caliphate.

These are the people you expect Israel to have meaningful negotiations with?

[Jack]

First and foremost, Hamas is an Islamist organisation, whose number one goal is to obliterate the state of Israel and to establish an Islamic state in the entire region. They may masquerade as a legitimate government but they shouldn't fool anyone. At the moment they are pushing for things that seem perfectly reasonable, the blockade to be lifted, for Israel to pull their troops out of Gaza etc. However if/when this happens, they'll keep pushing until they exert more of an influence in the region and they will then attempt to achieve their long term aims. They have no interest in living peacefully side by side with Israel as its neighbour.

Hamas hates Israel with a passion and can't stand the fact that they are living next door to a Jewish state on land that they consider to be Islamic.

If they do the things that you suggest then they would need to rewrite their whole raison d'etre.



As I've suggested above in response to ballengeich, Hamas has no interest in making peace with Israel.

They don't care about the people who are dying in Gaza. This is a group whose members have been known to blow themselves up in countless attacks on Israel in the past and who have even dressed their young children up in suicide bomb belts as means of propaganda.

We are talking about a group of people who have very little regard for the value of human life. In fact, to them, if you die whilst fighting against Israel you are considered a martyr.

All they're interested in is promoting their Islamist ideology. Everything else pales into insignificance.



Yep. Without their Iron Dome defence system, the loss of life on Israel's side would be huge.



This is the new Unity Government, which includes Hamas, which as an organisation was recently complicit in the kidnap and murder of three teenagers from Israel, indiscriminately fires hundreds of rockets into Israel on a daily basis and openly admits that one of its main aims is to wipe the Israelis off the face of the Earth and wants the entire region to be an Islamist caliphate.

These are the people you expect Israel to have meaningful negotiations with?

To be fair there are plenty in Israel with the same thoughts on Palestine.

The 1947 'United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine' maybe wasn't the best ever idea the UN, UK, USA have ever come up with.

[Just Alf]

To be fair there are plenty in Israel with the same thoughts on Palestine.

The 1947 'United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine' maybe wasn't the best ever idea the UN, UK, USA have ever come up with.

Totally agree, upto that point all sides were living in peace, what happened with the Nazi's in the years leading up to this decision would never have happened in Palestine for example, there was a real trust and honour among the different peoples of the area.

Mind you, if one group turns around and says we have more people coming so need more land and you're a wee farmer sitting on land your family has lived on for 150 years then I'm sure you'd be rightly hacked off if you were thrown off because you couldn't produce a bill of sale etc to show you actually own the land....... 2 wrongs don't make a right though.

[LiverpoolHibs]

First and foremost, Hamas is an Islamist organisation, whose number one goal is to obliterate the state of Israel and to establish an Islamic state in the entire region. They may masquerade as a legitimate government but they shouldn't fool anyone. At the moment they are pushing for things that seem perfectly reasonable, the blockade to be lifted, for Israel to pull their troops out of Gaza etc. However if/when this happens, they'll keep pushing until they exert more of an influence in the region and they will then attempt to achieve their long term aims. They have no interest in living peacefully side by side with Israel as its neighbour.

Hamas hates Israel with a passion and can't stand the fact that they are living next door to a Jewish state on land that they consider to be Islamic.

If they do the things that you suggest then they would need to rewrite their whole raison d'etre.

As I've suggested above in response to ballengeich, Hamas has no interest in making peace with Israel.

They don't care about the people who are dying in Gaza. This is a group whose members have been known to blow themselves up in countless attacks on Israel in the past and who have even dressed their young children up in suicide bomb belts as means of propaganda.

We are talking about a group of people who have very little regard for the value of human life. In fact, to them, if you die whilst fighting against Israel you are considered a martyr.

All they're interested in is promoting their Islamist ideology. Everything else pales into insignificance.

Yep. Without their Iron Dome defence system, the loss of life on Israel's side would be huge.

This is the new Unity Government, which includes Hamas, which as an organisation was recently complicit in the kidnap and murder of three teenagers from Israel, indiscriminately fires hundreds of rockets into Israel on a daily basis and openly admits that one of its main aims is to wipe the Israelis off the face of the Earth and wants the entire region to be an Islamist caliphate.

These are the people you expect Israel to have meaningful negotiations with?

Hi, FH. I told you that while I don't really post on here anymore, every time you brought this sort of stuff up I'd come on to remind you, and everyone else, what a disgusting anti-Semite you are and how even the most Judeophobic elements of the Palestinian resistance are considerably more comfortable with a continued Jewish presence in Palestine/Eretz Israel than you are. Do I really need to keep doing this or are you going to stop pretending you have any genuine empathy with the Jewish people?

Just in case it needs reiteration, you subscribe to a religious belief that requires all the world's Jews to move to Israel in order to bring about a massive war and the second coming of Christ which culminates in the conversion of one third of the Jews to Christianity and the incineration of the other two-thirds in Holy Fire.

Your Jew-hating lunacy far exceeds anything that Hamas or Islamic Jihad could ever hope to conceive.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Hi, FH. I told you that while I don't really post on here anymore, every time you brought this sort of stuff up I'd come on to remind you, and everyone else, what a disgusting anti-Semite you are and how even the most Judeophobic elements of the Palestinian resistance are considerably more comfortable with a continued Jewish presence in Palestine/Eretz Israel than you are. Do I really need to keep doing this or are you going to stop pretending you have any genuine empathy with the Jewish people?

Just in case it needs reiteration, you subscribe to a religious belief that requires all the world's Jews to move to Israel in order to bring about a massive war and the second coming of Christ which culminates in the conversion of one third of the Jews to Christianity and the incineration of the other two-thirds in Holy Fire.

Your Jew-hating lunacy far exceeds anything that Hamas or Islamic Jihad could ever hope to conceive.

Sorry, but I don't see anything in Trigs post to support the things you are saying about him. I don't know what the history between you pair is, but your post reads like a personal attack, and its out of order IMO.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Sorry, but I don't see anything in Trigs post to support the things you are saying about him. I don't know what the history between you pair is, but your post reads like a personal attack, and its out of order IMO.

Of course it's a personal attack, but it's not out of order. It's what he believes, he's been perfectly open about it in the past.

[Pretty Boy]

Sorry, but I don't see anything in Trigs post to support the things you are saying about him. I don't know what the history between you pair is, but your post reads like a personal attack, and its out of order IMO.

I'm in no way answering on behalf on LH but surely if someone uses a fundamentalist view of the Bible to support their stance on this conflict then they have to be prepared to be confronted about the contradictions that exist by doing so.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Of course it's a personal attack, but it's not out of order. It's what he believes, he's been perfectly open about it in the past.

I'll leave it to the admins. whether its out of order. You are going OTT, in my opinion, and it reads as quite nasty. Still, others might see it another way.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm in no way answering on behalf on LH but surely if someone uses a fundamentalist view of the Bible to support their stance on this conflict then they have to be prepared to be confronted about the contradictions that exist by doing so.

Yes, but is it fair to call someone's faith lunacy?

[LiverpoolHibs]

I'll leave it to the admins. whether its out of order. You are going OTT, in my opinion, and it reads as quite nasty. Still, others might see it another way.

It's not nasty, it's justifiably irate. 'Nasty' is offering apologias for Israel's slaughter of Palestinian children (and moreso, he does not recognise the Palestinian people whatsoever and has explicitly stated his support for subsuming the OPTs into a Greater Israel) in the defence of a religio-political belief that hopes for the annihilation of Judaism and the Jews.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Yes, but is it fair to call someone's faith lunacy?

If that faith involves actively promoting war, ethnic cleansing, catastrophe and annihilation then absolutely.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's not nasty, it's justifiably irate. 'Nasty' is offering apologias for Israel's slaughter of Palestinian children (and moreso, he does not recognise the Palestinian people whatsoever and has explicitly stated his support for subsuming the OPTs into a Greater Israel) in the defence of a religio-political belief that hopes for the annihilation of Judaism and the Jews.

So you're telling me what I think now? Maybe you don't think it's nasty, others might, and I do. But, recognising other people's right to a view I don't hold, I've said it's for the admins to decide.

[LiverpoolHibs]

So you're telling me what I think now? Maybe you don't think it's nasty, others might, and I do. But, recognising other people's right to a view I don't hold, I've said it's for the admins to decide.

What are you talking about?

[Phil D. Rolls]

If that faith involves actively promoting war, ethnic cleansing, catastrophe and annihilation then absolutely.

How are we defining lunacy today? Some might call any religious belief lunacy, when you think about it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What are you talking about?

Figure it out. It's clear enough in the post.

[LiverpoolHibs]

How are we defining lunacy today? Some might call any religious belief lunacy, when you think about it.

I don't particularly care how we define lunacy and I don't particularly care about dullards who call any religious belief 'lunacy'. I'm saying that actively promoting Greater Israeli expansionism and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in order to bring about a prophecy that foresees an apocalyptic war and the destruction of the Jews is lunacy. Q.E.D.


Figure it out. It's clear enough in the post.

No, it isn't. At no point have I told you, or tried to tell you, what you think.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I don't particularly care how we define lunacy and I don't particularly care about dullards who call any religious belief 'lunacy'. I'm saying that actively promoting Greater Israeli expansionism and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in order to bring about a prophecy that foresees an apocalyptic war and the destruction of the Jews is lunacy. Q.E.D.



No, it isn't. At no point have I told you, or tried to tell you, what you think.

Oh, OK then, I think it's nasty, and I think you're enjoying sticking the boot into another poster. :whistle:

I think his religion is no madder than one that advocates, no insists on, revenge for any offence; I think it's no madder than one that has a blue elephant as a god; and I think it's no madder than one that believes a woman can get pregnant without sexual intercourse.

If I was an admin. I'd empty you for the personal nature of your assault on
Trig (and we both agreed its a personal attack you made). But I'm not, so all I can do is point out the line that I think you've crossed.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Oh, OK then, I think it's nasty, and I think you're enjoying sticking the boot into another poster. :whistle:

I think his religion is no madder than one that advocates, no insists on, revenge for any offence; I think it's no madder than one that has a blue elephant as a god; and I think it's no madder than one that believes a woman can get pregnant without sexual intercourse.

If I was an admin. I'd empty you for the personal nature of your assault on
Trig. But I'm not, so all I can do is point out the line that I think you've crossed.

You can think what you like. You're wrong, though.

All I have done is attack him for views that he has been perfectly willing to admit on here in the past. I don't see what your problem with that is.

[hibsbollah]

Yes, but is it fair to call someone's faith lunacy?

You've come to this debate a bit late, to be fair. If you had trawled through this and similar threads over the years (not the best use of anyones time) you would see that FalkirkHibs bases his view of the Palestinian conflict through the lens of extremist religious fundamentalism. An apocalyptic christian version that is anti-rational, anti-science and anti-fact. And as polite as he is, his views mark him out as a racist, in my opinion. That's why when he comes on here and posts a load of pro-Israeli propaganda, even when its fairly easy to demolish with logic, its best not to bother. You can't debate with zealots.

[Betty Boop]

Rally at the foot of the Mound today at 1 for anyone interested.

https://www.facebook.com/scottishpsc

[Phil D. Rolls]

You've come to this debate a bit late, to be fair. If you had trawled through this and similar threads over the years (not the best use of anyones time) you would see that FalkirkHibs bases his view of the Palestinian conflict through the lens of extremist religious fundamentalism. An apocalyptic christian version that is anti-rational, anti-science and anti-fact. And as polite as he is, his views mark him out as a racist, in my opinion. That's why when he comes on here and posts a load of pro-Israeli propaganda, even when its fairly easy to demolish with logic, its best not to bother. You can't debate with zealots.

Maybe if I'd been involved in the debate earlier, I'd have a different perspective. As a late comer I saw an attack that was disproportionate to what was written. The forum has rules on personal attacks, and I thought it crossed the line.

I thought it fairer to explain to LH why I thought that. In fairness, and for balance, can you tell me a religion that is rational, scientific and based on fact?

[Pretty Boy]

Rally at the foot of the Mound today at 1 for anyone interested.

https://www.facebook.com/scottishpsc

Just got here just now.

Really decent turnout, circa 1.5-2k imo.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You can think what you like. You're wrong, though.

All I have done is attack him for views that he has been perfectly willing to admit on here in the past. I don't see what your problem with that is.

I just love the way you are so polite in your arrogance. I have never known you to concede any point, or criticism made of you.

I accept what you say though, if you say I'm wrong, I must be wrong. Think about it. ;)

[LiverpoolHibs]

Maybe if I'd been involved in the debate earlier, I'd have a different perspective. As a late comer I saw an attack that was disproportionate to what was written. The forum has rules on personal attacks, and I thought it crossed the line.

I thought it fairer to explain to LH why I thought that. In fairness, and for balance, can you tell me a religion that is rational, scientific and based on fact?

Of course it was disproportionate to what was written, this time. He trots out all of the well-worn hasbara talking points like yer standard IOF mouthpiece. The thing that really gets me, and why I told him a while ago that I would come on to call him out every time he did it, is when he talks about Palestinian anti-Semitism like hibs.net's very own Simon Pure. Failing to mention that he subscribes to doctrine that beats the Jew-hatred of your most hardcore Islamist hands down.

You keep claiming it was a personal attack. It was nothing of the sort. It was a response to the post he wrote that was informed by what he has explained in the past as motivation for his ultra-Zionism

[LiverpoolHibs]

I just love the way you are so polite in your arrogance. I have never known you to concede any point, or criticism made of you.

I accept what you say though, if you say I'm wrong, I must be wrong. Think about it. ;)

There's nothing arrogant in telling someone they're wrong when they're wrong.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You can think what you like. But what you think is wrong.

All I have done is attack him for views that he has been perfectly willing to admit on here in the past. I don't see what your problem with that is.

Fixed that for you.

Clearly, regardless of whether or not I believe something is nasty, you are the arbiter on whether I think rightly or wrongly. I've heard of the thought police, but I thought it was an Orwellian myth.

On that note, I think that calling someone's faith lunacy, when it seems no more lunatic than the faiths it is attacking, is bad logic and science, if not lunacy.


:crazy:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Of course it was disproportionate to what was written, this time. He trots out all of the well-worn hasbara talking points like yer standard IOF mouthpiece. The thing that really gets me, and why I told him a while ago that I would come on to call him out every time he did it, is when he talks about Palestinian anti-Semitism like hibs.net's very own Simon Pure. Failing to mention that he subscribes to doctrine that beats the Jew-hatred of your most hardcore Islamist hands down.


You keep claiming it was a personal attack. It was nothing of the sort. It was a response to the post he wrote that was informed by what he has explained in the past as motivation for his ultra-Zionism


You admitted yourself, in your first reply that it was personal. If attacking someone's faith isn't an attack on the person, what is?


But what I really objected to was you dismissing my feelings about how it sounded (my personal interpretation of the situation, based on my beliefs and experiences) as wrong.


Who are you to tell another person how they should feel; or what they should believe? It seems to me you are coming across as big a zealot as the guy you are attacking.


There's nothing arrogant in telling someone they're wrong when they're wrong.

Right, so a persons beliefs, even on a subjective matter such as what is nasty, have no validity. Instead they must be measured by the objective measure of what you believe to be right, sorry know to be right?

And you know it is right because that person has a different view on religion than you. So it is then OK to openly mock that person, because they don't agree with the one true version of the truth - the one inside your head.

Nothing arrogant in that at all.

[clerriehibs]

I think that Israel has the same right as any other country to demand that its neighbours don't attempt its destruction. There's no justification for some of the things it does, but some people forget the nature of some of its enemies.

Israeli politicians are murderous *******s.

The IDF are murderous *******s.

The wider Israeli popyulation; well, given 30k turn up at each of the (very few) funerals of murderous IDF *******s who've had their comeuppance, I think the Israeli nation as a whole is complicit, although undoubtedly there is a small minority who are decent and fair-minded.

The state of Israel came about because of immigrant terrorism against the indiginous Arabs, and a slack-jawed UN which granted these terrorists legitimacy, no doubt as a result of the Nazi atrocities.

So, a "Jewish and Democratic" state is created on land that had been primarily tyhe homeland of the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians were effectively ethnically cleansed (the Israelis sem to have no issue with adopting that practise of the Nazis) from their homeland.

Not happy with that, the Israelis continued with annexation and occupied territories settlement, which they still do.

Hamas and other extremist groups have only come about because of Israeli terrorism and supression.

What were the Palestinians meant to do? Lie back and take it up the arse and think of Allah? That seems to be your solution.

The yanks will do **** all, other than arm the IDF - there's a large Jewish vote at home to take care of.

The Brits will do **** all - there's one-sided special relationship to take care of.

UK foreign policy makes me sick.

[LiverpoolHibs]

Fixed that for you.

Clearly, regardless of whether or not I believe something is nasty, you are the arbiter on whether I think rightly or wrongly. I've heard of the thought police, but I thought it was an Orwellian myth.

On that note, I think that calling someone's faith lunacy, when it seems no more lunatic than the faiths it is attacking, is bad logic and science, if not lunacy.


:crazy:

You can decide what you like about the post and think that. That doesn't mean what you think is automatically correct just because you think it and feel it. I also think you've misunderstood the point Orwell was making with Thinkpol, but that's by-the-by.

It might be justified for you to have thought it nasty and/or disproportionate before you had the background explained to you. To continue to think that afterwards is, I'm afraid, wrong.

I'm not calling his faith lunacy, I'm calling an aspect of his faith that promotes conflict and hopes to see the incineration of two-thirds of the world's Jews lunacy. Again, you're quite entitled to think that it isn't lunacy . I'm not going to put you in prison or nuffink, m8.


You admitted yourself, in your first reply that it was personal. If attacking someone's faith isn't an attack on the person, what is?

But what I really objected to was you dismissing my feelings about how it sounded (my personal interpretation of the situation, based on my beliefs and experiences) as wrong.

Who are you to tell another person how they should feel; or what they should believe? It seems to me you are coming across as big a zealot as the guy you are attacking.

Right, so a persons beliefs, even on a subjective matter such as what is nasty, have no validity. Instead they must be measured by the objective measure of what you believe to be right, sorry know to be right?

And you know it is right because that person has a different view on religion than you. So it is then OK to openly mock that person, because they don't agree with the one true version of the truth - the one inside your head.

Nothing arrogant in that at all.

This is fascinating, or really weird, I dunno.

Is anyone ever allowed to tell someone what they think is wrong? I'm no-one, or rather I'm the same as anyone other rational being who is quite entitled to explain to another human being why they are right or wrong about something they think.

His faith isn't merely working on the spiritual plane, it is explicitly temporal. He is actively promoting an attitude to the conflict in the Middle East that, he thinks, will bring his end-times prophecy to fruition. He, and others like him, seek to exacerbate the conflict and oppose any sort of equitable resolution and reconciliation.

But if you don't think that needs challenged then, again, that's fine...

[clerriehibs]

I would assume a BBC article would be acceptable as fairly neutral -http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/78601.stm
Says it all about the birth of Israel and what kind of nation they are. They learnt a fair bit from Nazi expansionism.

[Jack]

I wish someone would invent a 'report post' button!

It might save a few folk a lot of grief.

[lEXO]

So you're telling me what I think now? Maybe you don't think it's nasty, others might, and I do. But, recognising other people's right to a view I don't hold, I've said it's for the admins to decide.

I don't see where he is telling you what you think either to be honest.

[Betty Boop]

Just got here just now.

Really decent turnout, circa 1.5-2k imo.

Aw just back, would like to have met you. I was holding the Unison banner, well some of the way. What a weight ! Anyhow great rally, especially enjoyed the speeches from Mick Napier and Aamer Anwar.

[Betty Boop]

You admitted yourself, in your first reply that it was personal. If attacking someone's faith isn't an attack on the person, what is?


But what I really objected to was you dismissing my feelings about how it sounded (my personal interpretation of the situation, based on my beliefs and experiences) as wrong.


Who are you to tell another person how they should feel; or what they should believe? It seems to me you are coming across as big a zealot as the guy you are attacking.



Right, so a persons beliefs, even on a subjective matter such as what is nasty, have no validity. Instead they must be measured by the objective measure of what you believe to be right, sorry know to be right?

And you know it is right because that person has a different view on religion than you. So it is then OK to openly mock that person, because they don't agree with the one true version of the truth - the one inside your head.

Nothing arrogant in that at all.

Is that you FR ? Stop being pissy ! :na na:

[Pete]

C'mon Trig. You're not going to stand for all that surely.

[Scouse Hibee]

Brilliant idea these rallies, on a busy afternoon in July let's bring the whole of Edinburgh city centre to a standstill, gridlock and frustration :grr:

I have no time for Mick Napier either ever since he made a nuisance of himself outside of my work for weeks on end with his facts wrong!

Edit, I realise my frustration today was nothing compared to the suffering of others just annoyed at the time.

[clerriehibs]

Brilliant idea these rallies, on a busy afternoon in July let's bring the whole of Edinburgh city centre to a standstill, gridlock and frustration :grr:

I have no time for Mick Napier either ever since he made a nuisance of himself outside of my work for weeks on end with his facts wrong!

Edit, I realise my frustration today was nothing compared to the suffering of others just annoyed at the time.

Ye gods.

[judas]

Why not take a Dutch flag in honour of the MH17 victims?

[Betty Boop]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ&feature=youtu.be

[Bristolhibby]

Why not take a Dutch flag in honour of the MH17 victims?

I think it's more to do with the ongoing oppression and murder, rather than the one off nature of the Malaysian Air murder.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Brilliant idea these rallies, on a busy afternoon in July let's bring the whole of Edinburgh city centre to a standstill, gridlock and frustration :grr:

I have no time for Mick Napier either ever since he made a nuisance of himself outside of my work for weeks on end with his facts wrong!

Edit, I realise my frustration today was nothing compared to the suffering of others just annoyed at the time.

I guess your the type of guy who complains about striking teachers/tube drivers for disrupting your life?

That's the point!

J

[Scouse Hibee]

I guess your the type of guy who complains about striking teachers/tube drivers for disrupting your life?

That's the point!

J

No, never use the tube and teachers striking doesn't affect me, gridlocking Edinburgh city centre on a Saturday afternoon however does!

[Bristolhibby]

No, never use the tube and teachers striking doesn't affect me, gridlocking Edinburgh city centre on a Saturday afternoon however does!

I was just making a point with those examples.

People sit up and take notice if a protest 'disrupts' their lives and is in their face. It makes the news, it gets exposure. That's the point.

500lb bombs landing on my home would be more of a disruption mind.

J

[Scouse Hibee]

I was just making a point with those examples.

People sit up and take notice if a protest 'disrupts' their lives and is in their face. It makes the news, it gets exposure. That's the point.

500lb bombs landing on my home would be more of a disruption mind.

J

I know all that mate, was just venting my frustration at how I felt at a particular time yesterday afternoon, I did edit my post as I realised that my my frustrations were insignificant due to other people's sufferings however the fact remains that I was ****** raging yesterday afternoon.

[Bristolhibby]

I know all that mate, was just venting my frustration at how I felt at a particular time yesterday afternoon, I did edit my post as I realised that my my frustrations were insignificant due to other people's sufferings however the fact remains that I was ****** raging yesterday afternoon.

No bother pal.

J

[clerriehibs]

I know all that mate, was just venting my frustration at how I felt at a particular time yesterday afternoon, I did edit my post as I realised that my my frustrations were insignificant due to other people's sufferings however the fact remains that I was ****** raging yesterday afternoon.

Well, that's all right then. You edited your post.

[Scouse Hibee]

Well, that's all right then. You edited your post.

I edited my post before you replied to it, you just never noticed!

[GoldenEagle]

Brilliant idea these rallies, on a busy afternoon in July let's bring the whole of Edinburgh city centre to a standstill, gridlock and frustration :grr:

I have no time for Mick Napier either ever since he made a nuisance of himself outside of my work for weeks on end with his facts wrong!

Edit, I realise my frustration today was nothing compared to the suffering of others just annoyed at the time.


I might be getting you mixed up with another poster but weren't you all for disrupting everyones post office deliveries only a few weeks back? :wink:

[Scouse Hibee]

I might be getting you mixed up with another poster but weren't you all for disrupting everyones post office deliveries only a few weeks back? :wink:

Not everyones only those who wanted a World Cup edition of the Sun, have never been to Palestine but was at Hillsborough so a bit closer to my heart :wink:

[Betty Boop]

Not everyones only those who wanted a World Cup edition of the Sun, have never been to Palestine but was at Hillsborough so a bit closer to my heart :wink:


We are all Palestinians in our thousands and our millions !

[Scouse Hibee]

We are all Palestinians in our thousands and our millions !

I'm a Scouser mate, breed of our own!

[GoldenEagle]

Not everyones only those who wanted a World Cup edition of the Sun, have never been to Palestine but was at Hillsborough so a bit closer to my heart :wink:

No worries mate..was just teasing a bit and didn't realise the personal element :aok:

[Scouse Hibee]

No worries mate..was just teasing a bit and didn't realise the personal element :aok:

:aok: I know mate.

[judas]

The problem with supporting Palestine through football in Scotland, is that it will simply sneak sectarianism in via the back door.

We've seen how it plays out with the infirm already. Celtic fans take Palestine flags and Rangers respond by taking Israel flags. Before you know it, you have a large collection of brain donors who think that the Irish question is being enacted in the Middle East.

Let's keep this out of the games. If you want to organise something, then by all means do it, but don't connects Hibs name to it.

[Bristolhibby]

The problem with supporting Palestine through football in Scotland, is that it will simply sneak sectarianism in via the back door.

We've seen how it plays out with the infirm already. Celtic fans take Palestine flags and Rangers respond by taking Israel flags. Before you know it, you have a large collection of brain donors who think that the Irish question is being enacted in the Middle East.

Let's keep this out of the games. If you want to organise something, then by all means do it, but don't connects Hibs name to it.

So because the knuckle draggers are tw@s we should do nothing?

I'm all for it. Show some solidarity, raise SE awareness.

J

[judas]

So because the knuckle draggers are tw@s we should do nothing?

I'm all for it. Show some solidarity, raise SE awareness.

J

No.

Do something by all means. Something more worthwhile than waving a flag at Easter Road.

The morons will hijack it (if you'll pardon the expression). Don't think for a minute this will coalesce into one big love in for the Palestininans. It will become counter productive.

[Just Alf]

The problem with supporting Palestine through football in Scotland, is that it will simply sneak sectarianism in via the back door.

We've seen how it plays out with the infirm already. Celtic fans take Palestine flags and Rangers respond by taking Israel flags. Before you know it, you have a large collection of brain donors who think that the Irish question is being enacted in the Middle East.

Let's keep this out of the games. If you want to organise something, then by all means do it, but don't connects Hibs name to it.

Bit in bold... I'm assuming you mean brain doners who've survived the operation? :cb

[judas]

Bit in bold... I'm assuming you mean brain doners who've survived the operation? :cb

Precisely my friend. It is indeed a phenomenon, but one I have seen.

I would ask if you are hungry? The 'doner' to which you refer is a composite meat material often placed inside a pitta bread and presented as food.

[Just Alf]

Precisely my friend. It is indeed a phenomenon, but one I have seen.

I would ask if you are hungry? The 'doner' to which you refer is a composite meat material often placed inside a pitta bread and presented as food.

Aargh! Blooming spel cheaquer!!!!!

:-)

[clerriehibs]

Israel - a disgusting nation of inhuman animals.

[Just Alf]

Israel - a disgusting nation of inhuman animals.


:agree: ..... looking at the time stamp, I'm guessing you had just watched the 10 o'clock news.

[Betty Boop]

Israel - a disgusting nation of inhuman animals.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/gaza-graveyard-sing-joyful-israeli-youths

[hibsbollah]

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/a-new-poll-israelis-veering-left.html#

I dont think those songs are representative of Israeli public opinion. You will always get the lunatic fringe, especially in the settler community, but Israelis have been moving to the left for a while now. This is surprising and positive when you consider the fear mongering propaganda they've been subject to.
The breaking the silence page I posted earlier (IDF vets against the occupation) is a good example.
Calling the people 'inhuman animals' and so on because of the actions of their Govt is playing into the hands of the warmongers.

[Betty Boop]

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/a-new-poll-israelis-veering-left.html#

I dont think those songs are representative of Israeli public opinion. You will always get the lunatic fringe, especially in the settler community, but Israelis have been moving to the left for a while now. This is surprising and positive when you consider the fear mongering propaganda they've been subject to.
The breaking the silence page I posted earlier (IDF vets against the occupation) is a good example.
Calling the people 'inhuman animals' and so on because of the actions of their Govt is playing into the hands of the warmongers.

Can't agree with you, I read in Haeretz that 86% of Israelis agree with the actions of Nuttyyahoo and his government, and strongly oppose a ceasefire. While IDF vets speaking out is to be welcomed, they are a tiny minority.

[hibsbollah]

Can't agree with you, I read in Haeretz that 86% of Israelis agree with the actions of Nuttyyahoo and his government, and strongly oppose a ceasefire. While IDF vets speaking out is to be welcomed, they are a tiny minority.

That sounds ridiculously high to me. Even given the usual phenomenon of high levels of support for leaders in wartime. Theres plenty of more optimistic polling out there.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/survey-most-israelis-palestinians-support-2-states/

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Have we had any response from Trig yet to the pasting he took on here at the w-end?

[clerriehibs]

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/a-new-poll-israelis-veering-left.html#

I dont think those songs are representative of Israeli public opinion. You will always get the lunatic fringe, especially in the settler community, but Israelis have been moving to the left for a while now. This is surprising and positive when you consider the fear mongering propaganda they've been subject to.
The breaking the silence page I posted earlier (IDF vets against the occupation) is a good example.
Calling the people 'inhuman animals' and so on because of the actions of their Govt is playing into the hands of the warmongers.
http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israelis-support-netanyahu-and-gaza-war-despite-rising-deaths-on-both-sides/2014/07/29/0d562c44-1748-11e4-9349-84d4a85be981_story.html

4% of Israelis may be reasonable anf decent.

The rest are inhuman, bloodthirsty animals.

[khib70]

http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israelis-support-netanyahu-and-gaza-war-despite-rising-deaths-on-both-sides/2014/07/29/0d562c44-1748-11e4-9349-84d4a85be981_story.html

4% of Israelis may be reasonable anf decent.

The rest are inhuman, bloodthirsty animals.
And you are 100% a hysterical racist stereotype merchant who knows the sum total of hee-haw about the situation.

Debate is one thing, but your repeated ranting and name-calling isn't worthy of the people you "support" or the perfectly reasonable people on here who support the Palestinian cause.

Grow up

[Canongatehibs]

Quite simply a breathtaking show of utter brutality by Israel.
I'd be all for a show of Palestine solidarity.
The world needs to know how brutal Israel is.

[Canongatehibs]

If u feel that passionately about it then get out and rally with the men and women that do it every week up the town. Politicians and media are not going to take note at the fitba.
I think politicians and media WOULD take notice of displays at the fitbaw.
Keeping it the minds. What it's all about.

[judas]

Israel - a disgusting nation of inhuman animals.

Do you regard yourself as an extremist?

[Betty Boop]

The US and UN condemn the attack on the UN school in Jabilya refugee camp for the second time. Along with the strike on a busy market, the IDF have lost the plot.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-un-school-hit-201473041918975321.html

[Betty Boop]

That sounds ridiculously high to me. Even given the usual phenomenon of high levels of support for leaders in wartime. Theres plenty of more optimistic polling out there.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/survey-most-israelis-palestinians-support-2-states/

Sky news reporting that polliing remains in the high 80s, in favour of support of military action.

[clerriehibs]

And you are 100% a hysterical racist stereotype merchant who knows the sum total of hee-haw about the situation.

Debate is one thing, but your repeated ranting and name-calling isn't worthy of the people you "support" or the perfectly reasonable people on here who support the Palestinian cause.

Grow up


You want racism, look at what the Israeli land-grabbers are doibg to the indiginous oeople. Ethnic cleansing, no more, no less.

It's ignorants like you that give the Israelis some sense of justification in maintaining the Gaza prison camp, and wading in and "cleansing" it periodically.

[clerriehibs]

Do you regard yourself as an extremist?

No Are you? Supporting Israel's behaviour is extremism of the worst kind.

[Sergio sledge]

Calling the people 'inhuman animals' and so on because of the actions of their Govt is playing into the hands of the warmongers.

:agree: the charge that the Israeli Govt level at people who criticise their actions is that it is anti-Semitism. Calling the entire Israeli people "inhuman animals" is racist and is exactly how the Govt want people to react so they can keep on with their "anyone who criticises us is anti-Semitic" rhetoric.

[clerriehibs]

:agree: the charge that the Israeli Govt level at people who criticise their actions is that it is anti-Semitism. Calling the entire Israeli people "inhuman animals" is racist and is exactly how the Govt want people to react so they can keep on with their "anyone who criticises us is anti-Semitic" rhetoric.

You're talking appeasement.


The Palestinians have suffered decades of displacement, land theft, property theft, murder and ethnic cleansing, and you want to speak politely of the Israelis, 95% of whom support the current murders.

Brilliant.

Note that "Israel" is not a race. It's a collection of people of various races who follow an ideology. To criticise an outcome of that ideology is not racist.

[Betty Boop]

Norman Finkelstein arrested in New York, during a pro Palestinian rally.






http://normanfinkelstein.com/

[LiverpoolHibs]

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/a-new-poll-israelis-veering-left.html#

I dont think those songs are representative of Israeli public opinion. You will always get the lunatic fringe, especially in the settler community, but Israelis have been moving to the left for a while now. This is surprising and positive when you consider the fear mongering propaganda they've been subject to.
The breaking the silence page I posted earlier (IDF vets against the occupation) is a good example.
Calling the people 'inhuman animals' and so on because of the actions of their Govt is playing into the hands of the warmongers.

I agree it's totally unhelpful language, here's an article explaining the polling.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/dissent-quieted-most-israelis-behind-gaza-war

It's nothing to do with Israelis being 'inhuman animals', though. It's necessary to understand that in Israel you essentially have a Junker state where the valorisation of the military ensures that practically every section of society rallies behind the IOF in times of war.

I'd agree with you that the figures are slightly too high, which is probably due to the regular call for the slaughter of leftists within Israel as well Palestinians, but not by much.

This is a society where a well-respected academic can seriously suggest (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israeli-professor-rape-hamas-militiants-mothers-sisters-deter-terrorist-attacks-1457836) the mass rape of Palestinian women to deter militant attacks.


Have we had any response from Trig yet to the pasting he took on here at the w-end?

Nope. He's been on the Commonwealth Games thread but seems to be giving this one a wide berth.

[hibsbollah]

Well im a bit of a polling geek so thats an interesting link. There is still a dichotomy between a variety of polls prior to and during the conflict (al monitor was reporting a narrow majority of israelis describing themselves as 'left wing or centre' and an increasing minority (24% iirc) calling for a return of the occupied territories). Its perhaps just a difficult place to get accurate data from. Certainly its just not credible that 95% of Israelis support current policies, however the war is being presented to them. Information is tightly controlled, and I would guess that includes hearing dissenting voices.

[Canongatehibs]

You're talking appeasement.


The Palestinians have suffered decades of displacement, land theft, property theft, murder and ethnic cleansing, and you want to speak politely of the Israelis, 95% of whom support the current murders.

Brilliant.

Note that "Israel" is not a race. It's a collection of people of various races who follow an ideology. To criticise an outcome of that ideology is not racist.

Excellently said.

Don't forget that Israel are wholly backed up, militarily, by the good old US of A. So its a double edged sword going through the poor folk of Gaza.

[clerriehibs]

Well well well ... exploitatuon of stolen assets ..

http://www.globalresearch.ca/srael-grants-first-golan-heights-oil-drilling-license-to-dick-cheney-linked-company/5347779

Some would liken that to the Nazis.

[judas]

No Are you? Supporting Israel's behaviour is extremism of the worst kind.

You are the one using the language of fanatical extremism. In fact your earlier comment in which you ring fence all Israelis is absurdly simplistic.

I do not support Israel. Nor Hamas. I would say sympathy lies mainly with ordinary Palestinians.

[clerriehibs]

You are the one using the language of fanatical extremism. In fact your earlier comment in which you ring fence all Israelis is absurdly simplistic.

I do not support Israel. Nor Hamas. I would say sympathy lies mainly with ordinary Palestinians.

95% of Israelis support the mass murder. You support who you want, I don't care what an appeaser thinks.

"Fanatical extremism"? You want to read up on how the state of Israel came about, and open your eyes as to how it maintains its existence.

[clerriehibs]

You are the one using the language of fanatical extremism. In fact your earlier comment in which you ring fence all Israelis is absurdly simplistic.

I do not support Israel. Nor Hamas. I would say sympathy lies mainly with ordinary Palestinians.


Speaking with some colleagues today, we think a full scale invasion of Russia (with nuclear deployment) is required. Russia has committed this act by proxy and with impunity because it has an economic hold on the West.

History is written by strong nations who act decisively. It's the reason we sit in our warm houses, with full bellies posting messages on our expensive hardware. Britain guaranteed our wealth for future generations through colonisation and such like and now fat liberals wet themselves in their pebble dashed new builds, because someone uses the word 'puffter' instead of 'gay' and someone else, has the temerity to laugh at women's football.

Now Russia is harbouring a massive resource, whilst committing atrocities. China needs gas, Europe needs gas and the US is almost bankrupt and losing its place after thinking it had won some 'cold war' - do you think that's air you're breathing?

A full scale invasion on several fronts would take Russia down a peg or two and ensure the wealth of the victors for generations to come.

Btw. I was in Russia once, so this isn't easy to say.



Who'd have thought it? Fanatically extreme language, as spoken by an absurd simpleton.

[Betty Boop]

The ceasefire collapses after three hours, after heavy fighting in Rafah. Two IDF soldiers killed and one captured.

[judas]

Who'd have thought it? Fanatically extreme language, as spoken by an absurd simpleton.

Excellent.

I was waiting for that.

:greengrin

[judas]

95% of Israelis support the mass murder. You support who you want, I don't care what an appeaser thinks.

"Fanatical extremism"? You want to read up on how the state of Israel came about, and open your eyes as to how it maintains its existence.

Moving back on to the subject.

I am also, very much at odds with Israel. I understand your anger and I find the death of children in particular absolutely chilling and frankly, tear inducing.

But I am curious (genuinely). Do you believe in a two state solution? And how do
you define an appeaser?

Also do you really believe 95% of Isrealis agree with mass murder? I mean was the question to the sample "Do you believe in mass murder"?

In essence - how would you resolve the crisis.?

If you wouldn't mind humouring an old simpleton Clerie, I really am interested in the subject and I feel I have a fairly good knowledge of Middle Eastern history (and the Arab Isreali Wars in particular) - naturally in the way an absurd simpleton does ;-) - Though my knoweldge is perhaps not as good as yours (I dont know).

Honestly looking for some engagement here.

[Sylar]

Moving back on to the subject.

I am also, very much at odds with Israel. I understand your anger and I find the death of children in particular absolutely chilling and frankly, tear inducing.

But I am curious (genuinely). Do you believe in a two state solution? And how do you define an appeaser?

Also do you really believe 95% of Isrealis agree with mass murder? I mean was the question to the sample "Do you believe in mass murder"?

In essence - how would you resolve the crisis.?

If you wouldn't mind humouring an old simpleton Clerie, I really am interested in the subject and I feel I have a fairly good knowledge of Middlie Eastern history (and the Arab Isreali Wars in particular) though perhaps not as good as yours.

Honestly looking for some engagement here.

Are you?

You've become involved in two threads now where the political/human cost has been absurdly high and on both occasions, your contribution/solution has been (i) 'tactical nuclear strike' and (ii) cruise missile to raise a nation/city to the ground.

I don't believe for a second you're seriously suggesting these things as a legitimate solution but if it's an attempt at 'comedy' it's awful. To me, it's flagrant provocation to illicit a response - add in the repetition and it's a classic example of trolling.

Ergo, it's no real surprise you're not getting any engagement here.

[judas]

Are you?

You've become involved in two threads now where the political/human cost has been absurdly high and on both occasions, your contribution/solution has been (i) 'tactical nuclear strike' and (ii) cruise missile to raise a nation/city to the ground.

I don't believe for a second you're seriously suggesting these things as a legitimate solution but if it's an attempt at 'comedy' it's awful. To me, it's flagrant provocation to illicit a response - add in the repetition and it's a classic example of trolling.

Ergo, it's no real surprise you're not getting any engagement here.

Notwithstanding the above, my questions still stand

[clerriehibs]

Excellent.

I was waiting for that.

:greengrin

Somewhat belatedly, I now appreciate from the above post that you are a pathetic troll, best left ignored.

[judas]

Somewhat belatedly, I now appreciate from the above post that you are a pathetic troll, best left ignored.

In the way that you have ignored me so far lol.

It's as I thought then - you dont have the answers any more than anyone else. Just misdirected hatred.

Bye.

[MSK]

Guys, can we get back on topic & cut out the petty point scoring ..ta

[khib70]

As the "regulars" on here know well, I strongly support the existence of Israel, and its right to defend itself. The reason I haven't said much on the subject here is that I'm not going to defend what's happening in Gaza because I can't. I'd be lying to you and more importantly to myself if I did. And I'm not going to get into arguments with people whose outrage is (with one or two exceptions) perfectly understandable.

The madness has to stop. That's my message to both sides

[Betty Boop]

As the "regulars" on here know well, I strongly support the existence of Israel, and its right to defend itself. The reason I haven't said much on the subject here is that I'm not going to defend what's happening in Gaza because I can't. I'd be lying to you and more importantly to myself if I did. And I'm not going to get into arguments with people whose outrage is (with one or two exceptions) perfectly understandable.

The madness has to stop. That's my message to both sides


I have the utmost respect for you Khib, even though we have very different views on the subject. Dd you have a good holiday? :greengrin

[Canongatehibs]

The 'work' Israel has undertaken recently will have set them back decades, possibly more.
Their people will be the ones who will suffer. Expect the mother of all backlashes.
Who now will want an Israeli as a 'friend'?

[Pete]

Disagree with what's happened to the Israeli performers at the fringe.

They are artists and artists should be allowed to perform as nationality shouldn't come into it. They are peaceful individuals who actually support a peaceful solution.

The situation in Palestine isn't acceptable but harassing a small group of performers is nothing more than bullying in my opinion. :no way:

[judas]

Disagree with what's happened to the Israeli performers at the fringe.

They are artists and artists should be allowed to perform as nationality shouldn't come into it. They are peaceful individuals who actually support a peaceful solution.

The situation in Palestine isn't acceptable but harassing a small group of performers is nothing more than bullying in my opinion. :no way:

It's a dilemma.

Attacks on Jews around the world are increasing and this is causing a marked increase in migration to Israel. This will compound the problem in the Middle East because you have a swell of angry new arrivals in Israel feeling persecuted and requiring accommodation. The pressure to grab more land under the usual false pretence will be greater than ever and the sides will polarise further - if indeed that is possible.

On the other hand, the magnitude of events in Gaza are bigger than art. In some respects, art in the midst if the crisis feels like a luxury. I can't help thinking about Maszlows Heirarchy.

I wonder, how can this crisis be resolved? It has to be a 2 state solution, with Israel rolling back it's borders.

[hibsbollah]

Disagree with what's happened to the Israeli performers at the fringe.

They are artists and artists should be allowed to perform as nationality shouldn't come into it. They are peaceful individuals who actually support a peaceful solution.

The situation in Palestine isn't acceptable but harassing a small group of performers is nothing more than bullying in my opinion. :no way:

Personally my sympathies lie elsewhere. As far as 'innocent victims of the conflict' are concerned, an Israeli theatre group being booed at the Fringe are near the bottom of the list.

[Betty Boop]

It's a dilemma.

Attacks on Jews around the world are increasing and this is causing a marked increase in migration to Israel. This will compound the problem in the Middle East because you have a swell of angry new arrivals in Israel feeling persecuted and requiring accommodation. The pressure to grab more land under the usual false pretence will be greater than ever and the sides will polarise further - if indeed that is possible.

On the other hand, the magnitude of events in Gaza are bigger than art. In some respects, art in the midst if the crisis feels like a luxury. I can't help thinking about Maszlows Heirarchy.

I wonder, how can this crisis be resolved? It has to be a 2 state solution, with Israel rolling back it's borders.

No a one state solution is the only answer, with Arabs and Jews living together in the the three areas, like any other multicultural country.

[frazeHFC]

Political flags at the football risk making you look daft anyway.

Remember these dafties when Rangers played in Israel, Nazi salutes and an Israel flag. There's not a facepalm big enough.


Absolute fannies. Seen them doing that a fair bit here too. One lad from my school stood at Tynie facing the Hibs fans doing a Nazi absolute half the game. Facepalm summed it up as well.

Politcs and football together? NO THANKS

[MSK]

Absolute fannies. Seen them doing that a fair bit here too. One lad from my school stood at Tynie facing the Hibs fans doing a Nazi absolute half the game. Facepalm summed it up as well.

Politcs and football together? NO THANKS:agree:

[Betty Boop]

http://normanfinkelstein.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/obamanation.jpg

[Pretty Boy]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qDerHXtYWJY

Lovely video of some distraught Palestinian children, 11 years old, being arrested and marched through the streets by some really brave heroes.

[frazeHFC]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qDerHXtYWJY

Lovely video of some distraught Palestinian children, 11 years old, being arrested and marched through the streets by some really brave heroes.

That's horrific! :bitchy:



Also :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/pieandbov/status/495694665103179776/photo/1

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BuEPqNEIEAAR1r9.jpg:large

[sidjames]

No a one state solution is the only answer, with Arabs and Jews living together in the the three areas, like any other multicultural country.

That's not possible. Islam wants to have its own monoculture dominating the world. It tolerates no other way of life. It cannot, will not peaceably live with others. Ask the Christian minorities in Islamic states. The cult of Islam like any other dictatorial regime has no place for compromise. And the Jews want to live in their own state with their own complicated rules of how life should be lived.

[Pretty Boy]

That's not possible. Islam wants to have its own monoculture dominating the world. It tolerates no other way of life. It cannot, will not peaceably live with others. Ask the Christian minorities in Islamic states. The cult of Islam like any other dictatorial regime has no place for compromise. And the Jews want to live in their own state with their own complicated rules of how life should be lived.

Except you have just jumped to the conclusion that BB must have meant Muslims when he said Arabs.

About 8% of the West Bank population is Christian, about 1% in Gaza and approximately 10% of the Arab population in Israel. If you count the spread of Palestinian people across the world, primarily the current Palestinian territories, surrounding Arab states and the Americas the Christian population is between 10 and 12%. Yasser Arafat, arguably still the face of the Palestinian cause, was married to a Christian lady.

There is masses of historical evidence of Jews, Muslims and Christians living in relative peace and cooperation in the region.

[hibsbollah]

That's not possible. Islam wants to have its own monoculture dominating the world. It tolerates no other way of life. It cannot, will not peaceably live with others. Ask the Christian minorities in Islamic states. The cult of Islam like any other dictatorial regime has no place for compromise. And the Jews want to live in their own state with their own complicated rules of how life should be lived.

I thought this was sarcastic at first. Do you really believe this total racist rubbish?

Historically Islamic states were, in fact, characterised by unusual levels of tolerance of the other monotheistic religions, if you look at Moirish Spain Almohad North Africa and the emerging Ottoman empire. It was the Christians who were rampaging about in the crusades, initiating pogroms beyond 'the pale', murdering the Jews of York and raising Orthodox Constantinople to the ground. Radical violent Islamism does exist in the twenty first century, it would be stupid to pretend it didn't, and Christians are being persecuted in many (mostly African) failed states like Sudan and Mali, but religious extremism is of minor importance to the Arab Israeli conflict.

The PLO and Fatah were secular organisations prior to Hamas taking control of Gaza, and strangely that didnt prevent the Israelis pounding Palestinian civilians in those days.

[ballengeich]

Islam wants to have its own monoculture dominating the world. It tolerates no other way of life. It cannot, will not peaceably live with others. Ask the Christian minorities in Islamic states.

I think you're making too much of a generalisation there. States in which Islam is the dominant religion vary immensely in how they treat minorities and always have done.



There is masses of historical evidence of Jews, Muslims and Christians living in relative peace and cooperation in the region.

Unfortunately, there is also a lot of historical (and contemporary) evidence of the opposite. The treatment of Christians in Mosul is a very recent example of sid's second point above.

A significant minority of Israel's Jews are descendents of people (or are the people themselves) who left Arab and other Islamic countries after Israel came into existence. I doubt whether many of them would fancy risking becoming a minority population again given what they experienced in the past and can see now in surrounding territories. I can't see a one state solution in the foreseeable future. Sadly, I also can't see how we get to two states living peacefully together any time soon.

[Hibrandenburg]

I thought this was sarcastic at first. Do you really believe this total racist rubbish?

Historically Islamic states were, in fact, characterised by unusual levels of tolerance of the other monotheistic religions, if you look at Moirish Spain Almohad North Africa and the emerging Ottoman empire. It was the Christians who were rampaging about in the crusades, initiating pogroms beyond 'the pale', murdering the Jews of York and raising Orthodox Constantinople to the ground. Radical violent Islamism does exist in the twenty first century, it would be stupid to pretend it didn't, and Christians are being persecuted in many (mostly African) failed states like Sudan and Mali, but religious extremism is of minor importance to the Arab Israeli conflict.

The PLO and Fatah were secular organisations prior to Hamas taking control of Gaza, and strangely that didnt prevent the Israelis pounding Palestinian civilians in those days.

I'd agree with most of that apart from the bit about religious extremism being only a part of the problem.

Religion on both sides is the foundation stone upon which both sides have built their culture, politics and it's what keeps them together and at the same time distinguishes one people from another and thus polarizing the whole region.

I know this is going off on a tangent but there are parallels to Scottish Football. A small minority of the smellies in the West are actually religious, however it's religion that's the magnet that polarizes both camps and ensures both poles are magnetically repellant to each other.

[TheReg!]

[QUOTE=hibsbollah;4114854]I thought this was sarcastic at first. Do you really believe this total racist rubbish?

@Hibsbollah, why do you call yourself this?? Is it because you support Hezbollah?

I think I'm right in saying that the elimination of the State of Israel has been one of Hezbollah's primary goals.

Do you really believe this total racist rubbish fella???

You come across as anti-Semitic in nearly every post you write on the matter!

[Betty Boop]

Except you have just jumped to the conclusion that BB must have meant Muslims when he said Arabs.

About 8% of the West Bank population is Christian, about 1% in Gaza and approximately 10% of the Arab population in Israel. If you count the spread of Palestinian people across the world, primarily the current Palestinian territories, surrounding Arab states and the Americas the Christian population is between 10 and 12%. Yasser Arafat, arguably still the face of the Palestinian cause, was married to a Christian lady.

There is masses of historical evidence of Jews, Muslims and Christians living in relative peace and cooperation in the region.

I'm a she lol

[Betty Boop]

But agree with you 100%

[judas]

[QUOTE=hibsbollah;4114854]I thought this was sarcastic at first. Do you really believe this total racist rubbish?

@Hibsbollah, why do you call yourself this?? Is it because you support Hezbollah?

I think I'm right in saying that the elimination of the State of Israel has been one of Hezbollah's primary goals.

Do you really believe this total racist rubbish fella???

You come across as anti-Semitic in nearly every post you write on the matter!

I think it's just a funny name is it not? A Hibs extremist perhaps? It's just a laugh and I don't think you need to worry about him being a terrorist.

I remember there used to be a guy on kickback (in the days when I cared enough to wind up yams) who was called The Dalry Lama. As far as I'm aware he didn't consider himself to be a venerated spiritual leader. Again, just a funny name.

[judas]

The single state solution is impossible - utterly.

A Constitution is formed around the majority religious view. The two extremes in this case could never be reconciled and a constitution reflecting both faiths could not be written.

And that's just one problem.

A two state solution with reset borders is the only solution.

But neither Hamas nor the Conservative Israelis would accept it. Why would the Zionists stop or reverse the habit of a lifetime, stealing other peoples land?

[Betty Boop]

[QUOTE=hibsbollah;4114854]I thought this was sarcastic at first. Do you really believe this total racist rubbish?

@Hibsbollah, why do you call yourself this?? Is it because you support Hezbollah?

I think I'm right in saying that the elimination of the State of Israel has been one of Hezbollah's primary goals.

Do you really believe this total racist rubbish fella???

You come across as anti-Semitic in nearly every post you write on the matter!

Deary me why are u getting all upset about someone's username ? Your antisemetic comment is just nonsense.

[Betty Boop]

A third school bombed. Where are the calls for sanctions on Israel? 1830 Palestinians killed since July 8th 80% of which are civilians.The International community must hold Israel to account and reign in this attack dog.A disgrace that the so called only democracy in the Middle East is slaughtering women and children with impunity as the world looks on.

[hibsbollah]

I'd agree with most of that apart from the bit about religious extremism being only a part of the problem.

Religion on both sides is the foundation stone upon which both sides have built their culture, politics and it's what keeps them together and at the same time distinguishes one people from another and thus polarizing the whole region.

I know this is going off on a tangent but there are parallels to Scottish Football. A small minority of the smellies in the West are actually religious, however it's religion that's the magnet that polarizes both camps and ensures both poles are magnetically repellant to each other.

I suppose you will never know for sure whether the enmity and killing would still be there if you took religion out of the equation. As I've said before, the parallels between Israel and the apartheid South Africa regime are very clear, and in that respect the Arabs are just 'blacks', regardless of any religious element. Like South Africa, The Arabs are despised by the racist minority in Israel because of perceived historic and genetic weaknesses, not religious superiority ; you hear this rationale being played out in the myth that Palestine was a squalid wasteland before the Zionists arrived; they had to be 'taught' how to make the land into wealth. (a hilarious deviation from the truth; the third crusade into Acre and Jerusalem only happened because Richard the Lionheart wanted access to the world's richest region, bar none; I was reading the other day that the tax revenues of Acre alone outstripped the whole of Britain in the 12th century). The Crusades were all about the cash.

And again, we've already gone over the PLO and Fatah not being religious. That didn't make them any less reviled by the Israeli state.

The issues that we come back to are economic power, land ownership and race. Although ironically, and perhaps deliberately, Israels murderous policies makes the extension of Islamic fundamentalism in the region more likely.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's not possible. Islam wants to have its own monoculture dominating the world. It tolerates no other way of life. It cannot, will not peaceably live with others. Ask the Christian minorities in Islamic states. The cult of Islam like any other dictatorial regime has no place for compromise. And the Jews want to live in their own state with their own complicated rules of how life should be lived.

Whilst I don't doubt your post is an attempt to troll, I also don't doubt you probably believe it.

That's sad for a variety of reasons but also very ignorant.

Islam is a loose description for many elements, many shades, many parts. In many respects there are parallels with Christianity, not just because they are monotheistic but in terms of how they have grown and developed.

I've posted before that if you study the philosophy of the Shia denomination, the second-largest Muslim grouping, at its heart it bears close resemblance to the development of Western thought around liberal democracy - Locke, Paine and Hume are comfortable bedfellows with the Shia scholars IMHO.

[Jack]

A third school bombed. Where are the calls for sanctions on Israel? 1830 Palestinians killed since July 8th 80% of which are civilians.The International community must hold Israel to account and reign in this attack dog.A disgrace that the so called only democracy in the Middle East is slaughtering women and children with impunity as the world looks on.

The calls would be for UN resolutions. Even if they got past the USA veto Israel would ignore them in the same way they have ignored all the other UN resolutions since 1948.

[Mibbes Aye]

The calls would be for UN resolutions. Even if they got past the USA veto Israel would ignore them in the same way they have ignored all the other UN resolutions since 1948.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't push for it.

[Jack]

Doesn't mean we shouldn't push for it.

My point is something else needs to happen, something different, I don't know what or else I'd be a multi millionaire Middle East Peace Envoy!

The UN is being, and in this situation always has been, totally and utterly ineffective.

Edit: In fact its worse than that. It is in effect condoning what's going on.

[--------]

Anybody want to fly a flag for the hundreds being bombed and murdered by Boko Haram on a daily basis? Or even for the 100 plus young girls still being held spmewhere?


Not sufficiently fashionable or topical, Lucius? :wink:

Just a random thought on the subject of anti-Jewish conspiracy theories - just about the ONLY part of the world where the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich's favourite bed-time reading on the Jewish World Conspiracy and the inspiration for the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem in Europe) are still taken seriously is in the Middle East among Arab and Islamist countries and authorities. This includes the Saudi education minsitry, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Sheikh Ekrima Sa'id Sabri, and our dear friends Hamas in their 1988 Charter.

So maybe genocide isn't so very far from their thoughts after all. A case of desire outrunning performance, perhaps?

That said, what the IDF is doing in Gaza's criminal, all right. But so is what Boko Haram's doing in Nigeria, and ISIS in Iraq and Syria, and a whole lot of other Islamist organisations throughout Africa and the Middle East.

[judas]

Not sufficiently fashionable or topical, Lucius? :wink:

Just a random thought on the subject of anti-Jewish conspiracy theories - just about the ONLY part of the world where the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich's favourite bed-time reading on the Jewish World Conspiracy and the inspiration for the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem in Europe) are still taken seriously is in the Middle East among Arab abd Islamist countries and authorities. This includes the Saudi education minsitry, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Sheikh Ekrima Sa'id Sabri, and our dear friends Hamas in their 1988 Charter.

So maybe genocide isn't so very far from their thoughts after all. A case of desire outrunning performance, perhaps?

That said, what the IDF is doing in Gaza's criminal, all right. But so is what Boko Haram's doing in Nigeria, and ISIS in Iraq and Syria, and a whole lot of other Islamist organisations throughout Africa and the Middle East.

Yes, yes and yes.

When does contempt for Jews become such that we forget about the extremist murderers on the other side?

[Lucius Apuleius]

Not sufficiently fashionable or topical, Lucius? :wink:

Just a random thought on the subject of anti-Jewish conspiracy theories - just about the ONLY part of the world where the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich's favourite bed-time reading on the Jewish World Conspiracy and the inspiration for the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem in Europe) are still taken seriously is in the Middle East among Arab abd Islamist countries and authorities. This includes the Saudi education minsitry, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Sheikh Ekrima Sa'id Sabri, and our dear friends Hamas in their 1988 Charter.

So maybe genocide isn't so very far from their thoughts after all. A case of desire outrunning performance, perhaps?

That said, what the IDF is doing in Gaza's criminal, all right. But so is what Boko Haram's doing in Nigeria, and ISIS in Iraq and Syria, and a whole lot of other Islamist organisations throughout Africa and the Middle East.

It appears not Dod. What Boko Haram are doing to Christians in Nigeria is absolutely shocking. Daily bombings of churches and schools, but no outrage. Nigeria is not alone with this problem. I have seen crucifixes ripped off the neck of Filipinos (fiercely Catholic in the main) when we docked in various places in Iran, Iraq or Saudi especially. Pictures of Jesus or the virgin Mary on their cabin bulkheads ripped off and trashed, and heaven forbid they found a bible. Yet we plead tolerance. Some of the islands in the Philippines now it is pretty damn dangerous to be a Christian. Indonesia? Malaysia? And this is before we start on some of the African nations. Persecution of Christianity is widespread in the world but we are happy to overlook it!

[Hibrandenburg]

It appears not Dod. What Boko Haram are doing to Christians in Nigeria is absolutely shocking. Daily bombings of churches and schools, but no outrage. Nigeria is not alone with this problem. I have seen crucifixes ripped off the neck of Filipinos (fiercely Catholic in the main) when we docked in various places in Iran, Iraq or Saudi especially. Pictures of Jesus or the virgin Mary on their cabin bulkheads ripped off and trashed, and heaven forbid they found a bible. Yet we plead tolerance. Some of the islands in the Philippines now it is pretty damn dangerous to be a Christian. Indonesia? Malaysia? And this is before we start on some of the African nations. Persecution of Christianity is widespread in the world but we are happy to overlook it!

That's the spirit! Show them the other cheek.

[Lucius Apuleius]

That's the spirit! Show them the other cheek.

Therein lies the problem, we do.

[Betty Boop]

Free Palestine Rally Sat at 2 the Mound.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Not got a link as I'm on my phone. Glasgow City Council are to fly the Palestinian flag at the city chambers.

[Future17]

Not got a link as I'm on my phone. Glasgow City Council are to fly the Palestinian flag at the city chambers.

Most random aspect of the story is that Glasgow is twinned with Bethlehem! :confused:

[Moulin Yarns]

This is 8 minutes long, but worth watching. Apologies if has already been posted.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/watch-irish-senator-condemns-gaza-massacre-nazi-talk-israelis

[--------]

That's the spirit! Show them the other cheek.

Well, actually, that's part of being a Christian - Matthhew 5:39.

I have become unwilingly convinced that the Palestinian confrontation allows many people to give vent to their anti-Jewish prejudice without laying themselves open to attack from their pals on the liberal Left. The number of people who don't believe the Holocaust ever happened - or that accounts are exaggerated - is growing these days. Holocaust denial is probably the most popular conspiracy theory in the world, after the fruitloops who think the FBI brought down the Twin Towers because they read a book once that said that the hole in the Pentagon wall wasn't the same shape as a Boeing 757's front elevation.

Palestine's on out TV screens and news websites (right at the top of the page) pretty well constantly, so it's easy to stoke up indignation/condemnation/demonstrations about it. You don't even have to know too much about the history to get wound up about it. Just wave a flag and chant a slogan.

BUT - Egyptian Coptic Christian teenage girls kidnapped and forced into marriage with Muslim men sometimes 50 years their senior - who cares? (This happens regularly in Egypt, with the knowledge anc connivance of the police and the law.)

The lassie in Ethiopia condemned to death by stoning for converting to Christianity from Islam - who cares? She's pregnant - who cares? Give her a stay of execution for two years until the bairn's on solid food - then stone her. Anyone who does care will have forgotten all about her by then. And when the US puts pressure on - her husband's a US citizen - and the cowards back down and let her go - that's imperialism interfering with local customs.

Nigerian churches burned - sometimes with the congregation still inside? Not newsworthy.

If I went to Saudi the authorities would steal my Bible on the basis that it's 'pornography'. If I were to explain to a Saudi citizen why I believe what I believe and why I'm a Christian and not a Muslim, and he reported me, I'm thrown out on my neck. (That's if they don't throw me in jail on a charge of insulting the Qu'ran. Which carries the death penalty, right? Or a public flogging? Nice people.)

And if the guy I spoke to DOESN'T report me, and someone else reports me and him, HE finds himself in TRULY DEEP **** with the Religious Police.

But the Saudis are trading partners - they buy weapons and torture equipment from UK firms, so we say nothing. They also buy booze in fairly large quantities, but that never reaches the lower orders, so we'll say no more about that.

And every day in life wee girls all over the Middle East, Africa, and the Indian Sub-continent are forcible held down by their mothers and aunties and older sisters and neighbours while another of her neighbours carves her genitals with a probably none-too-clean razor blade. Because it's the Muslim thing to do.

Who cares?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Next few pages should be quite enlightening.

[Stranraer]

Well, actually, that's part of being a Christian - Matthhew 5:39.

I have become unwilingly convinced that the Palestinian confrontation allows many people to give vent to their anti-Jewish prejudice without laying themselves open to attack from their pals on the liberal Left. The number of people who don't believe the Holocaust ever happened - or that accounts are exaggerated - is growing these days. Holocaust denial is probably the most popular conspiracy theory in the world, after the fruitloops who think the FBI brought down the Twin Towers because they read a book once that said that the hole in the Pentagon wall wasn't the same shape as a Boeing 757's front elevation.

Palestine's on out TV screens and news websites (right at the top of the page) pretty well constantly, so it's easy to stoke up indignation/condemnation/demonstrations about it. You don't even have to know too much about the history to get wound up about it. Just wave a flag and chant a slogan.

BUT - Egyptian Coptic Christian teenage girls kidnapped and forced into marriage with Muslim men sometimes 50 years their senior - who cares? (This happens regularly in Egypt, with the knowledge anc connivance of the police and the law.)

The lassie in Ethiopia condemned to death by stoning for converting to Christianity from Islam - who cares? She's pregnant - who cares? Give her a stay of execution for two years until the bairn's on solid food - then stone her. Anyone who does care will have forgotten all about her by then. And when the US puts pressure on - her husband's a US citizen - and the cowards back down and let her go - that's imperialism interfering with local customs.

Nigerian churches burned - sometimes with the congregation still inside? Not newsworthy.

If I went to Saudi the authorities would steal my Bible on the basis that it's 'pornography'. If I were to explain to a Saudi citizen why I believe what I believe and why I'm a Christian and not a Muslim, and he reported me, I'm thrown out on my neck. (That's if they don't throw me in jail on a charge of insulting the Qu'ran. Which carries the death penalty, right? Or a public flogging? Nice people.)

And if the guy I spoke to DOESN'T report me, and someone else reports me and him, HE finds himself in TRULY DEEP **** with the Religious Police.

But the Saudis are trading partners - they buy weapons and torture equipment from UK firms, so we say nothing. They also buy booze in fairly large quantities, but that never reaches the lower orders, so we'll say no more about that.

And every day in life wee girls all over the Middle East, Africa, and the Indian Sub-continent are forcible held down by their mothers and aunties and older sisters and neighbours while another of her neighbours carves her genitals with a probably none-too-clean razor blade. Because it's the Muslim thing to do.

Who cares?

According to the World Health Organization it is practised in Christian communities in Africa as well. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507121/)

[--------]

According to the World Health Organization it is practised in Christian communities in Africa as well. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507121/)

Indeed it is.

And it's a bloody disgrace that it is. But there have been a number of cases in a number of Muslim countries where a Christian girl has been raped, and the defence offered has been that she hadn't been circumcised so she was 'obviously' a prostitute and therefore fair game. And that defence is accepted by the court.

In an African village (like villages everywhere) everyone knows everyone else's business, and girls who are uncircumcised are at risk regardless of their religion.

Understandably, parents sometimes feel that conforming to the surrounding culture is the lesser of two evils.

[Pretty Boy]

According to the World Health Organization it is practised in Christian communities in Africa as well. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507121/)

Africa is a hugely tricky place when it comes to religion.

So many waters are muddied because of the fusion of religous beliefs from the likes of Islam and Christianity with more traditional African beliefs. That's not to excuse obscenities like female circumcision of course.

I'd recommend 'The Boy in the River' by Richard Hawkins as a good starting point if it's something you are interested in.

[--------]

Africa is a hugely tricky place when it comes to religion.

So many waters are muddied because of the fusion of religous beliefs from the likes of Islam and Christianity with more traditional African beliefs.

I'd recommend 'The Boy in the River' by Richard Hawkins as a good starting point if it's something you are interested in.


Meryl Streep did a documentary "The Cutting Tradition" about this. It was on the Community Channel a few weeks ago.

It's about FGM, and there are bits which aren't pretty. You might want to turn the sound down around the 10 minute mark.

Here it is. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUpToERm0q0

To be fair, there are folks who will say that Mohammed didn't command it, and it's much, much less common outside Africa, but it IS part of the culture of a certain stream of Islam, and I have no doubt whatsoever that ISIS and the Taliban and their pals would be all in favour.

[Stranraer]

Africa is a hugely tricky place when it comes to religion.

So many waters are muddied because of the fusion of religous beliefs from the likes of Islam and Christianity with more traditional African beliefs. That's not to excuse obscenities like female circumcision of course.

I'd recommend 'The Boy in the River' by Richard Hawkins as a good starting point if it's something you are interested in.

Hitch talks about it in God is not Great. I'm not greatly interested in FGM - I find stories about it extremely hard to read.

[Pretty Boy]

Hitch talks about it in God is not Great. I'm not greatly interested in FGM - I find stories about it extremely hard to read.

The book isn't solely about FGM although it is mentioned. It's more about African beliefs, traditions and -sadly- human sacrifice. A lot of this comes from a messy, and ultimately self serving, forcing together of local witchcraft beliefs and an extreme and literal interpretation of Christianity.

It's written by a Christian Doctor who spent time working in the Congo, lost a daughter there and became somthing of an expert on the belief systems. It's a very, very harrowing read.

[Stranraer]

The book isn't solely about FGM although it is mentioned. It's more about African beliefs, traditions and -sadly- human sacrifice. A lot of this comes from a messy, and ultimately self serving, forcing together of local witchcraft beliefs and an extreme and literal interpretation of Christianity.

It's written by a Christian Doctor who spent time working in the Congo, lost a daughter there and became somthing of an expert on the belief systems. It's a very, very harrowing read.

Have you got a link PB?

[Pretty Boy]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1447207904/ref=mw_dp_mdsc?dsc=1

[Stranraer]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1447207904/ref=mw_dp_mdsc?dsc=1

Ah Richard Hoskins. Cheers :aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

The book isn't solely about FGM although it is mentioned. It's more about African beliefs, traditions and -sadly- human sacrifice. A lot of this comes from a messy, and ultimately self serving, forcing together of local witchcraft beliefs and an extreme and literal interpretation of Christianity.

It's written by a Christian Doctor who spent time working in the Congo, lost a daughter there and became somthing of an expert on the belief systems. It's a very, very harrowing read.

It pains me to think that in 2014 there are still human beings that don't realise that religion is an invention to control them. Even more scary is the thought that we could be thrown back to the dark ages if these movements ever gain the upper hand again.

[Sir David Gray]

Hi, FH. I told you that while I don't really post on here anymore, every time you brought this sort of stuff up I'd come on to remind you, and everyone else, what a disgusting anti-Semite you are and how even the most Judeophobic elements of the Palestinian resistance are considerably more comfortable with a continued Jewish presence in Palestine/Eretz Israel than you are. Do I really need to keep doing this or are you going to stop pretending you have any genuine empathy with the Jewish people?

Just in case it needs reiteration, you subscribe to a religious belief that requires all the world's Jews to move to Israel in order to bring about a massive war and the second coming of Christ which culminates in the conversion of one third of the Jews to Christianity and the incineration of the other two-thirds in Holy Fire.

Your Jew-hating lunacy far exceeds anything that Hamas or Islamic Jihad could ever hope to conceive.

I've just got round to reading this thread again so I've just seen your words of wisdom.

Do you get an e-mail alert or something, every time I post on here about this topic? I don't think you've been on here since the last time this discussion cropped up about two years ago.

First of all, I'll gloss over the personal nature of this attack. I was under the impression that such posts were in breach of site rules so I'm slightly surprised that this post hasn't been deleted but I'm personally not bothered in the slightest by it as I realise it's just you being you.

Secondly, I have deliberately steered clear of making any references on this thread to the religious beliefs I have previously referred to in previous discussions on this topic and I have been discussing the matter from a purely secular point of view. It would have been nice if you could have debated the points I have made in this thread and kept the discussion on topic.


Sorry, but I don't see anything in Trigs post to support the things you are saying about him. I don't know what the history between you pair is, but your post reads like a personal attack, and its out of order IMO.

Cheers for this post but it's not something I'm bothered about in the slightest so no need for you to fall out with anyone over it. It's just LH's normal debating style.

He doesn't mean any harm, he just can't help himself.


Have we had any response from Trig yet to the pasting he took on here at the w-end?


C'mon Trig. You're not going to stand for all that surely.

As above, it's water off a duck's back.

I know what LH is like so his post comes as no surprise. I'm slightly surprised that it wasn't deleted but what anyone thinks about me doesn't bother me. I'm not on here to win a popularity contest.

[Sir David Gray]

That's not possible. Islam wants to have its own monoculture dominating the world. It tolerates no other way of life. It cannot, will not peaceably live with others. Ask the Christian minorities in Islamic states. The cult of Islam like any other dictatorial regime has no place for compromise. And the Jews want to live in their own state with their own complicated rules of how life should be lived.

:agree: In a nutshell.

As I've already said myself, earlier on in the thread, Hamas does not recognise the right of any Jewish person to live on the land which is currently made up of Israel and the Palestinian territories. It wants the entire land to be an Islamic caliphate, ruled under Sharia Law, and it will not accept any other alternative.

And yet Israel's supposed to hold "meaningful negotiations" with them, to quote one poster on here!

I sincerely hope the ceasefire can last beyond the original deadline of later on this morning, as some of the scenes coming from Gaza have been distressing. However I guess it all depends on whether Hamas will stop firing its rockets and I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

[hibsbollah]

:agree: In a nutshell.

As I've already said myself, earlier on in the thread, Hamas does not recognise the right of any Jewish person to live on the land which is currently made up of Israel and the Palestinian territories. It wants the entire land to be an Islamic caliphate, ruled under Sharia Law, and it will not accept any other alternative.

And yet Israel's supposed to hold "meaningful negotiations" with them, to quote one poster on here!

I sincerely hope the ceasefire can last beyond the original deadline of later on this morning, as some of the scenes coming from Gaza have been distressing. However I guess it all depends on whether Hamas will stop firing its rockets and I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

You're complaining about another poster calling you a 'disgusting antisemite'. Im not an admin, but statements such as 'Islam wants to have its own monoculture dominating the world' is deserving of deletion in my opinion. Its racist, because you are not differentiating between different beliefs within a religion. You can have an opinion about Hamas, or Isis, or the Taliban, or those mad Christians in the US who shoot doctors for carrying out abortions. But when you make ignorant and just factually incorrect statements about 'Islam' then you need to be called out for it. Your cloak slipped early in this thread when you stated your beliefs about the Jews and Cbristians and the end of days.

The truth is, you've shown that you hold antisemitic, Islamophobic and plain racist and bigoted views. I assume the reason the admins didnt delete LHs post is because it is self evidently true. The fact you don't know you are bigoted doesnt excuse you from being so.

[Stranraer]

:agree: In a nutshell.

As I've already said myself, earlier on in the thread, Hamas does not recognise the right of any Jewish person to live on the land which is currently made up of Israel and the Palestinian territories. It wants the entire land to be an Islamic caliphate, ruled under Sharia Law, and it will not accept any other alternative.

And yet Israel's supposed to hold "meaningful negotiations" with them, to quote one poster on here!

I sincerely hope the ceasefire can last beyond the original deadline of later on this morning, as some of the scenes coming from Gaza have been distressing. However I guess it all depends on whether Hamas will stop firing its rockets and I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Israel is an exclusively Jewish state and Hamas rockets one could argue are a result of Israeli occupation, illegal Jewish settlements being built and a crippling blockade.

[Moulin Yarns]

Israel is an exclusively Jewish state and Hamas rockets one could argue are a result of Israeli occupation, illegal Jewish settlements being built and a crippling blockade.

Palestine (in Green) currently and Palestine in 1988 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Palestinian_National_Authority_showing_Israel%27s_ 1948_and_1967_borders.svg/424px-Palestinian_National_Authority_showing_Israel%27s_ 1948_and_1967_borders.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Palestinian_National_Authority_showing_Israel%27s_ 1948_and_1967_borders.svg)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Palestinian_territories_%28West_Bank_and_Gaza_Stri p%29_showing_Israel%27s_1948_and_1967_borders.svg/424px-Palestinian_territories_%28West_Bank_and_Gaza_Stri p%29_showing_Israel%27s_1948_and_1967_borders.svg. png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Palestinian_territories_%28West_Bank_and_Gaza_Stri p%29_showing_Israel%27s_1948_and_1967_borders.svg)

[sidjames]

You're complaining about another poster calling you a 'disgusting antisemite'. Im not an admin, but statements such as 'Islam wants to have its own monoculture dominating the world' is deserving of deletion in my opinion. Its racist, because you are not differentiating between different beliefs within a religion. You can have an opinion about Hamas, or Isis, or the Taliban, or those mad Christians in the US who shoot doctors for carrying out abortions. But when you make ignorant and just factually incorrect statements about 'Islam' then you need to be called out for it. Your cloak slipped early in this thread when you stated your beliefs about the Jews and Cbristians and the end of days.

The truth is, you've shown that you hold antisemitic, Islamophobic and plain racist and bigoted views. I assume the reason the admins didnt delete LHs post is because it is self evidently true. The fact you don't know you are bigoted doesnt excuse you from being so.

"Racist" oh really. So to undermine a perfectly legitimate criticism of a sect or mob or gang of people who preach all or any kind of fantasist hokum makes one a racist. How dare you take that term and try and infer that.

A completely uncalled for cheap shot at reducing debate to in essence one of race.

[Stranraer]

Fighting resumes and another 10 year old Palestinian child is killed courtesy of an Israeli air strike.

[hibsbollah]

"Racist" oh really. So to undermine a perfectly legitimate criticism of a sect or mob or gang of people who preach all or any kind of fantasist hokum makes one a racist. How dare you take that term and try and infer that.

A completely uncalled for cheap shot at reducing debate to in essence one of race.

You're either too stupid to understand the concept being discussed or you're trolling. Whichever, you're now on 'ignore'.

[Hibrandenburg]

Fighting resumes and another 10 year old Palestinian child is killed courtesy of an Israeli air strike.

After Hamas broke the ceasefire. Hamas deliberately put Palestinian citizens in the line of fire and the more that get killed the better it is for Hamas. They're using their own people to invoke outrage at Israel and that is absolutely criminal. But it's obviously working for them and their war chest must be brimming again.

[Stranraer]

After Hamas broke the ceasefire. Hamas deliberately put Palestinian citizens in the line of fire and the more that get killed the better it is for Hamas. They're using their own people to invoke outrage at Israel and that is absolutely criminal. But it's obviously working for them and their war chest must be brimming again.

Netanyahu ordered another attack on the coastal enclave. Israel are the criminals and have murdered over 1000 people. Hamas aren't "lucky" enough to be funded by the US so their war chest as you put it is incomparable.

[sidjames]

You're either too stupid to understand the concept being discussed or you're trolling. Whichever, you're now on 'ignore'.

What a stunningly clever response. You must be so pleased with your cunning intellect.

You are on my ignorant list.

[stoneyburn hibs]

What a stunningly clever response. You must be so pleased with your cunning intellect.

You are on my ignorant list.

It was an apt response, if yourself or Morrisey had cared to look at the thread from way back then you would see where he is coming from.

[LiverpoolHibs]

I've just got round to reading this thread again so I've just seen your words of wisdom.

Do you get an e-mail alert or something, every time I post on here about this topic? I don't think you've been on here since the last time this discussion cropped up about two years ago.

No, I thought I covered that in the post; you do seem to need a great deal of reiteration. I don't really post on here anymore but still read the site. Arguing properly with you on this subject became the most mind-numbingly tedious, Sisyphean and pointless task conceivable, so you're welcome to post your thoughts on it without challenge from me - there are plenty of posters capable of taking you to task. However, I object deeply to your attempts to smear the Palestinian people with accusations of anti-Semitism when you hold the most despicable, Jew-hating, eliminationist beliefs possible.

And I'll continue to come on to remind you, and others, of that fact.


First of all, I'll gloss over the personal nature of this attack. I was under the impression that such posts were in breach of site rules so I'm slightly surprised that this post hasn't been deleted but I'm personally not bothered in the slightest by it as I realise it's just you being you.

More, to the point, you've glossed over the substantive points of my post in lieu of this poor-put-upon act.

It's not really a personal attack, is it? Unless you think that using vituperative language against someone who has utterly vile beliefs is necessarily a personal attack. If you do, I don't care. There's no reference to anything other than the religio-political beliefs that you've been happy to share on here in the past. The problem, for you, is that those beliefs make you everything that I said you were in that post.


Secondly, I have deliberately steered clear of making any references on this thread to the religious beliefs I have previously referred to in previous discussions on this topic and I have been discussing the matter from a purely secular point of view.

I couldn't agree with you more, and that's the problem. What you're describing is a process called 'dissimulation' that has been a favourite technique of anti-Semites, Christian Zionist end-timers and the far-right more generally for decades.

Pretend your Zionism is motivated by some deep empathy for Jews when really, in your head, you're working to bring about a huge war, the Second Coming and their destruction. Outside of your head (I don't like it very much in there, it's terrifying) you're actively opposing any sort of genuine, equitable solution to the conflict and attempting to exacerbate the problem.


Cheers for this post but it's not something I'm bothered about in the slightest so no need for you to fall out with anyone over it. It's just LH's normal debating style.

He doesn't mean any harm, he just can't help himself.

Awch, now you know that's not true. We used to have such lovely, peaceable arguments in the days before you revealed the genocidal motivations for your support of a bellicose Greater Israeli expansionism and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians


As above, it's water off a duck's back.

I know what LH is like so his post comes as no surprise. I'm slightly surprised that it wasn't deleted but what anyone thinks about me doesn't bother me. I'm not on here to win a popularity contest.

Given that you haven't actually denied anything that I wrote (because it's all true), what part of it do you think would merit having the post deleted?

[sidjames]

It was an apt response, if yourself or Morrisey had cared to look at the thread from way back then you would see where he is coming from.

So you agree with his comment that I am stupid or troll and racist.

That's a pretty serious accusation to level at anybody.

I'm pretty sickened by that.

[Stranraer]

It was an apt response, if yourself or Morrisey had cared to look at the thread from way back then you would see where he is coming from.

? Morrissey wasn't having a go at Hibsbollah...

[sidjames]

It was an apt response, if yourself or Morrisey had cared to look at the thread from way back then you would see where he is coming from.

So you agree with his comment that I am stupid or troll and racist.

That's a pretty serious accusation to level at anybody.

I'm pretty sickened by that.

[stoneyburn hibs]

So you agree with his comment that I am stupid or troll and racist.

That's a pretty serious accusation to level at anybody.

I'm pretty sickened by that.

So sickened that you posted it twice. Should have made it clear that I was defending HB's reply to FH. Regardless, stop being such a drama queen.

[Hibrandenburg]

Netanyahu ordered another attack on the coastal enclave. Israel are the criminals and have murdered over 1000 people. Hamas aren't "lucky" enough to be funded by the US so their war chest as you put it is incomparable.

Bulldroppings! Where do Hamas get their missiles, do they build them themselves?

They're being funded and every man, woman and child that dies fills their coffers.

It's absolutely disgusting and taking sides only causes more death. Both sides are as bad as each other and should be equally condemned.

[Stranraer]

Bulldroppings! Where do Hamas get their missiles, do they build them themselves?

They're being funded and every man, woman and child that dies fills their coffers.

It's absolutely disgusting and taking sides only causes more death. Both sides are as bad as each other and should be equally condemned.

Hamas rockets are nearly always rendered ineffective. Israel have a huge arsenal and I thoroughly condemn the Tel-Aviv regime for murdering nearly two thousand civilians. Israel has America on it's side and with their continued support Hamas are fighting a losing battle.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Hamas rockets are nearly always rendered ineffective. Israel have a huge arsenal and I thoroughly condemn the Tel-Aviv regime for murdering nearly two thousand civilians. Israel has America on it's side and with their continued support Hamas are fighting a losing battle.

The fact that Israel has the wherewithal to render Hamas rockets innefectual does not give Hamas any moral advantage.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hamas rockets are nearly always rendered ineffective. Israel have a huge arsenal and I thoroughly condemn the Tel-Aviv regime for murdering nearly two thousand civilians. Israel has America on it's side and with their continued support Hamas are fighting a losing battle.

So if an axe wielding maniac comes at you, you wouldn't use your gun?

[Jack]

So if an axe wielding maniac comes at you, you wouldn't use your gun?

I would use my gun but I wouldn't then go round to his house and blow it up with his wife and bairns in it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I would use my gun but I wouldn't then go round to his house and blow it up with his wife and bairns in it.

There's a good chance you might have already killed his wife and kids because he was using them as a shield when he attacked you.

[Jack]

There's a good chance you might have already killed his wife and kids because he was using them as a shield when he attacked you.

Not with my vastly superior equipment including a laser sighted weapon that can take out a object the size of an apple at over 1000 metres.

I also have other hardware I can fire off from many kilometres away that I claim is so accurate I could have it go in their bathroom window and out the back door on its way to a legitimate target. I have no excuses for not hitting my intended targets and wouldn't dream of targeting schools, hospitals or UN buildings.

[hibsbollah]

There's a good chance you might have already killed his wife and kids because he was using them as a shield when he attacked you.

Ah, the old 'human shield' argument again. Its as old as the hills, used by Hitler to justify bombing the east end cockneys. It makes as little sense now as it does then, especially in Gaza, one of the most densely populated strips of urban land in the world. There isnt the physical space for Hamas to operate like a chivalrous army on equal terms with Israeli warships, missiles tanks and depleted uranium shells (not to mention nuclear missiles).And of course, even if its true its an irrelevant argument, under the terms of the Geneva Convention its the responsibility of the attacking army to ensure civilians are protected.

[LiverpoolHibs]

The fact that Israel has the wherewithal to render Hamas rockets innefectual does not give Hamas any moral advantage.

You can argue about the morals but international law is unambiguous on the subject. During a conflict an occupied people has the right to carry out belligerent reprisals against a civilian populace. It's not pleasant, but it's legal.

This should be a major problem for Israel, the US and Britain in their statements during the conflict given the fact that, as nuclear states, they are the constant vetoes against removing the Doctrine of Belligerent Reprisals from international law. But no-one ever calls them on it.

And, conversely, an occupying power has absolutely no right under international law to use military force to maintain an occupation.

Israel does not have the wherewithal to render Hamas 'rockets' ineffectual. Hamas 'rockets' are ineffectual because they are ineffectual. Iron Dome is a complete myth. During Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9 three Israeli civilians were killed by projectiles fired from Gaza, during this conflict three Israeli civilians were killed by rocket fire from Gaza. The Iron Dome system was introduced in 2011...

The 'both sides are as bad as each other' stuff is totally mendacious, it ignores international law and effectively insists that the Palestinians accept the occupation/annexation of their country. It enables Israeli bellicosity.


So if an axe wielding maniac comes at you, you wouldn't use your gun?

Analogies like that aren't helpful. They obfuscate the issue.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not with my vastly superior equipment including a laser sighted weapon that can take out a object the size of an apple at over 1000 metres.

I also have other hardware I can fire off from many kilometres away that I claim is so accurate I could have it go in their bathroom window and out the back door on its way to a legitimate target. I have no excuses for not hitting my intended targets and wouldn't dream of targeting schools, hospitals or UN buildings.

Think you're over estimating the smartness of these so-called smart weapons. Or is this the old "why did the police kill him instead of just shooting the gun out of his hands" argumentation. Like I've said already it's completely disgusting that innocents are dying in their hundreds in this conflict and taking sides will only prolong the misery.

I've put my job on the line by refusing to operate in or out of Israel until this conflict stops. By doing so I'm not siding with Hamas but showing my disgust at Israeli tactics, if I could make a similar gesture against Hamas I would, they're as bad if not worse.

[Hibrandenburg]

You can argue about the morals but international law is unambiguous on the subject. During a conflict an occupied people has the right to carry out belligerent reprisals against a civilian populace. It's not pleasant, but it's legal.

This should be a major problem for Israel, the US and Britain in their statements during the conflict given the fact that, as nuclear states, they are the constant vetoes against removing the Doctrine of Belligerent Reprisals from international law. But no-one ever calls them on it.

And, conversely, an occupying power has absolutely no right under international law to use military force to maintain an occupation.

Israel does not have the wherewithal to render Hamas 'rockets' ineffectual. Hamas 'rockets' are ineffectual because they are ineffectual. Iron Dome is a complete myth. During Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9 three Israeli civilians were killed by projectiles fired from Gaza, during this conflict three Israeli civilians were killed by rocket fire from Gaza. The Iron Dome system was introduced in 2011...

The 'both sides are as bad as each other' stuff is totally mendacious, it ignores international law and effectively insists that the Palestinians accept the occupation/annexation of their country. It enables Israeli bellicosity.



Analogies like that aren't helpful. They obfuscate the issue.

No, using words like obfuscate obfuscate the situation.

I don't really give a toss about international law, both sides have treated international law with contempt unless it suited them. The sooner the world stops taking sides and starts condemning both sides, the sooner (if ever) this conflict will be starved of the oxygen that keeps fanning the flames.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ah, the old 'human shield' argument again. Its as old as the hills, used by Hitler to justify bombing the east end cockneys. It makes as little sense now as it does then, especially in Gaza, one of the most densely populated strips of urban land in the world. There isnt the physical space for Hamas to operate like a chivalrous army on equal terms with Israeli warships nuclear missiles tanks and depleted uranium shells (not to mention nuclear missiles).And of course, even if its true its an irrelevant argument, under the terms of the Geneva Convention its the responsibility of the attacking army to ensure civilians are protected.

So you're saying that Hamas don't use schools, mosques and public buildings to store and fire their missiles at Israel, it's just all Israeli propaganda?

[LiverpoolHibs]

No, using words like obfuscate obfuscate the situation.

No it doesn't.


I don't really give a toss about international law, both sides have treated international law with contempt unless it suited them. The sooner the world stops taking sides and starts condemning both sides, the sooner (if ever) this conflict will be starved of the oxygen that keeps fanning the flames.

Right, how does the world condemning both sides lead to an equitable solution to the conflict? How is that a better option than insisting upon the application of international law?