Malaysian Aircraft 'crashes' in Ukraine...

[Sylar]

A Malaysian aircraft flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has apparently 'crashed' in the Ukraine, near the Russian border...it was carrying 295 people.

This could be a major international incident if Russia or the Ukraine have shot it down!

[easty]

It really hasn't been a good year for Malaysia Airlines.

Cover up imminent if the Russians have done something terrible? :dunno:

[Sylar]

Various news outlets now reporting it was downed by a ground to air missile and that all 295 people are suspected dead.

Been nice knowing you all if it turns out to be a Russian missile.

[Sylar]

It's now being reported that a BUK missile system is suspected and that Ukrainian military personnel were not involved.

[easty]

It's now being reported that a BUK missile system is suspected and that Ukrainian military personnel were not involved.

Regardless of who shot it down, they'll be denying it.

[Sylar]

Regardless of who shot it down, they'll be denying it.

Without a doubt - was simply relaying from Interfax rather than attempting to exonerate any side :agree:

[stoneyburn hibs]

Various news outlets now reporting it was downed by a ground to air missile and that all 295 people are suspected dead.

Been nice knowing you all if it turns out to be a Russian missile.

Steady now, my flight home is tomorrow morning ( for the mock offended, im not making light of this)

[easty]

Say it's the pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine, who've been armed by Russia. Does that implicate Russia as the culprits, by proxy, or could the Russians distance themselves from that?

[whereswallace?]

Last week I got home from a holiday in Thailand. The biggest part of both the route there and home was via Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur using Malaysia airlines, the exact flight that was shot down today. I'm feeling a little bit thankful today. Unbelievable.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Say it's the pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine, who've been armed by Russia. Does that implicate Russia as the culprits, by proxy, or could the Russians distance themselves from that?

Yes and yes IMO

[The_Exile]

Why the f** is a passenger plane flying over a war zone?

Edit: Apparently 2 military jets were flying beside the passenger plane, wonder why? Surely not an escort? Perhaps the target was the military jets but they missed? Perhaps they thought "if it's getting an escort it must be a military transport or summin" and shot it down?

Mental.

[Betty Boop]

Jeezo whoever shot it down this is scary !

[silverhibee]

Why the f** is a passenger plane flying over a war zone?

Edit: Apparently 2 military jets were flying beside the passenger plane, wonder why? Surely not an escort? Perhaps the target was the military jets but they missed? Perhaps they thought "if it's getting an escort it must be a military transport or summin" and shot it down?

Mental.

Listening to Sky news and it is not deemed a war zone.

[The_Exile]

Just seen that also. Pretty staggering, sure I read somewhere that a couple of Ukrainian military planes had been shot at recently too.

[judas]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.

[brianmc]

Top trolling, well done.

[Monopolyguy]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.


Are you joking?

[degenerated]

Aye that sounds a cracking idea. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/18/yzu2arat.jpg

[Scouse Hibee]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.


Xbox or PS?

[steakbake]

A tactical nuclear strike?? No such thing. It's all in or all out. Should we tell all the innocent bystanders they should leave, like the Israelis do with Gaza?

Putin is going nowhere and the world has to work with him. Time for a bit of working things out instead of flexing imaginary muscles and going along for the ride to kill more innocent people.

[Beefster]

I wouldn't go as far as tactical nuclear strikes but, if it transpires that it was the separatists with Russian SAMs, I think that something needs to be done beyond sanctions. Maybe UN peacekeepers?

[Sylar]

Tactical nuclear strike :hilarious

I think someone's had too much Tactical Nuclear Penguin!

:troll:

[easty]

I wouldn't go as far as tactical nuclear strikes but, if it transpires that it was the separatists with Russian SAMs, I think that something needs to be done beyond sanctions. Maybe UN peacekeepers?

I understand where you're coming from, but if, say, the rebels in Libya - who I'm pretty sure I read that we armed in order to oust Gaddafi - had gone on to do something horrendous. Would we be held culpable for that?

[Pretty Boy]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.

And when they sent a 'tactical strike' right back, then what?

Time for the submarine commanders to open their letters of last resort would be my guess.

[easty]

Time for the submarine commanders to open their letters of last resort would be my guess.

Which asks the important question. What was better? The Hunt for Red October or Crimson Tide?

[Future17]

Any military response will ultimately lead to more civilian casualties - the answer to the murder of innocent people cannot be the murder of more innocent people.

I can't even begin to imagine how the victims' families will be feeling, but I would guess a lot of them would want some form of revenge or at least for the killers to be brought to justice. However, one of the reasons we elect representatives to deal with these events is so they will take a step back and act in the best interests of the majority.

I think the best we can hope that comes out of this is a mandate for unified international action to negotiate an end to hostilities in that part of the world.

[lord bunberry]

I wouldn't go as far as tactical nuclear strikes but, if it transpires that it was the separatists with Russian SAMs, I think that something needs to be done beyond sanctions. Maybe UN peacekeepers?

Sanctions would work better if they were meaningful, banning Russia from selling gas and oil would hit them hard but that's never going to happen and Russia know it.

[The_Todd]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5997416448/h27BA06B1/

[BroxburnHibee]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.

:hilarious that's a classic

[Time For Heroes]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.

Wow. Just wow.

[Johnny_Leith]

I have no idea if true and it's probably an urban legend that's now cropped up however apparently an Australian woman's brother and sister-in-law were lost on MH370 and her husband and step daughter were on MH17!!

Brutal, tragic and hopelessly depressing if true!

[Sir David Gray]

I have no idea if true and it's probably an urban legend that's now cropped up however apparently an Australian woman's brother and sister-in-law were lost on MH370 and her husband and step daughter were on MH17!!

Brutal, tragic and hopelessly depressing if true!

It's apparently true.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/two-australians-mh17-shot-down-ukraine-relatives-mh370

That is really sad.

[MoscowHibs]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.

What planet are you on. There is no way Putin authorised this. Rumours in Russia are that Putin himself may have been the target, as the aircraft he was coming back from Brazil some 30 minutes earlier in was not too dissimilar to the 777 in livery. Tell you what, if you want Britain obliterated off the planet, then let's just send a missile from here, and watch what Russia dae .:crazy:

[Beefster]

What planet are you on. There is no way Putin authorised this. Rumours in Russia are that Putin himself may have been the target, as the aircraft he was coming back from Brazil some 30 minutes earlier in was not too dissimilar to the 777 in livery. Tell you what, if you want Britain obliterated off the planet, then let's just send a missile from here, and watch Russia dae .:crazy:

I'm fairly sure that the rumour about Putin's plane has been debunked already.

[MoscowHibs]

I'm fairly sure that the rumour about Putin's plane has been debunked already.

The wife is Russian and the in laws were saying this morning that the media over there state that a witness saw a missile coming from a Ukrainian forces base, not the pro Russian side. They also state the 777 was intercepted by 2 Ukrainian fighters prior to the 777 going off radar. This witness has subsequently disappeared, which in all likelihood is to shut him up.There is a lot in this which doesn't add up, and indeed until such time as 100% fact is known I wish Obama and his cronies would stfu, as I believe they desperately want this to be Russian involvement.

[easty]

There is a lot in this which doesn't add up, and indeed until such time as 100% fact is known I wish Obama and his cronies would stfu, as I believe they desperately want this to be Russian involvement.

I agree with that. A lot of people far too eager to point the finger at Putin at the moment.

[MoscowHibs]

I agree with that. A lot of people far too eager to point the finger at Putin at the moment.

Absolutely. Some clown on Sky news stated last night that it pretty much must have been Russia as Putin was a trained liar as he is ex KGB. WTF has that got tae do with price o cheese.I had the fortune of meeting Putin some years ago when he was PM, on a visit to Cyprus. Very nice guy I thought, very good English and very polite. If indeed it is proven that this had sfa to do with Russia, the Obama's, Camerons and thon Aussie clown wont be quick to apologise that's for sure.

[Hibrandenburg]

What planet are you on. There is no way Putin authorised this. Rumours in Russia are that Putin himself may have been the target, as the aircraft he was coming back from Brazil some 30 minutes earlier in was not too dissimilar to the 777 in livery. Tell you what, if you want Britain obliterated off the planet, then let's just send a missile from here, and watch what Russia dae .:crazy:

That would be a nice little propaganda story to whip the masses into a frenzy. This has got Poland 1939 written all over it.

As for Putin being a nice guy? Well I think time will prove you very wrong.

[MoscowHibs]

That would be a nice little propaganda story to whip the masses into a frenzy. This has got Poland 1939 written all over it.

As for Putin being a nice guy? Well I think time will prove you very wrong.

Maybe aye, maybe naw, however he wont be any worse than Obama and his puppet Cameron. And as for comparing this situation to 1939, I think that is a bit far too fetched.

[Hibrandenburg]

Maybe aye, maybe naw, however he wont be any worse than Obama and his puppet Cameron. And as for comparing this situation to 1939, I think that is a bit far too fetched.

Really?

Whipping up frenzied propaganda in the motherland about the ill treatment of Russian ethnic minorities outside their own borders.

Sending troops with no insignia across the border to bolster the militants within that minority.

Dehumanization of minority groups within their society.

All these points fit in nicely towards a bigger picture that we're not quite seeing yet but as the pieces fall into place the end game will become apparent. Probably too late though.

Yes there are many parallels to 1938/39 but like then few want to see them.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Is it time to make a tactical nuclear strike on Russia?

I would certainly endorse it. I had some respect for Putin, but he's just gotten right up my nose with this one.

I know all the evidence isn't out yet. But I think a strike on a Russian Border town is the answer, we can ask the questions later.

Probably not the best idea, for so many reasons.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Really?

Whipping up frenzied propaganda in the motherland about the ill treatment of Russian ethnic minorities outside their own borders.

Sending troops with no insignia across the border to bolster the militants within that minority.

Dehumanization of minority groups within their society.

All these points fit in nicely towards a bigger picture that we're not quite seeing yet but as the pieces fall into place the end game will become apparent. Probably too late though.

Yes there are many parallels to 1938/39 but like then few want to see them.

Not much we can do about it either.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not much we can do about it either.

:agree: We could be mentally prepared for it though, rather than denying through wishful thinking that it's not happening.

[Phil D. Rolls]

:agree: We could be mentally prepared for it though, rather than denying through wishful thinking that it's not happening.

Yes, but Putin is well aware that there is neither the finance, nor the inclination to get involved in another war. Maybe it's time to let Germany get involved. :devil:

[RyeSloan]

Absolutely. Some clown on Sky news stated last night that it pretty much must have been Russia as Putin was a trained liar as he is ex KGB. WTF has that got tae do with price o cheese.I had the fortune of meeting Putin some years ago when he was PM, on a visit to Cyprus. Very nice guy I thought, very good English and very polite. If indeed it is proven that this had sfa to do with Russia, the Obama's, Camerons and thon Aussie clown wont be quick to apologise that's for sure.

Great post...see how many you catch on your hook.

Putin is of course a nice guy and very polite, not sure how anyone could think otherwise!

[Beefster]

I had the fortune of meeting Putin some years ago when he was PM, on a visit to Cyprus. Very nice guy I thought, very good English and very polite.

Good to hear. I've read some horrendous things about him in the press and I had a funny feeling it was all nonsense.

[lord bunberry]

Maybe aye, maybe naw, however he wont be any worse than Obama and his puppet Cameron. And as for comparing this situation to 1939, I think that is a bit far too fetched.

I don't think it's far fetched at all, the similarities are uncanny. In 1939 the Germans stirred up an uprising in Czechoslovakia then annexed it, they later faked a polish incursion into German territory and used it as an excuse to invade. The Russians appear to following the same strategy. They've already annexed part of the Ukraine, they're now accusing the Ukrainians of shooting down the plane because they thought Putin was on it, would anyone be shocked to see a Russian invasion of the Ukraine? I wouldn't.

[Hibs Class]

The wife is Russian and the in laws were saying this morning that the media over there state that a witness saw a missile coming from a Ukrainian forces base, not the pro Russian side. They also state the 777 was intercepted by 2 Ukrainian fighters prior to the 777 going off radar. This witness has subsequently disappeared, which in all likelihood is to shut him up.There is a lot in this which doesn't add up, and indeed until such time as 100% fact is known I wish Obama and his cronies would stfu, as I believe they desperately want this to be Russian involvement.

No offence intended, but in terms of reliability I'd place .net (& a good chunk of the internet) well ahead of Russian media. I'm sure all states are capable of disinformation, but I have little doubt that Russian claims right now are nothing more than outright lies, believed only by those that want to believe them in the face of the truth.

[easty]

No offence intended, but in terms of reliability I'd place .net (& a good chunk of the internet) well ahead of Russian media. I'm sure all states are capable of disinformation, but I have little doubt that Russian claims right now are nothing more than outright lies, believed only by those that want to believe them in the face of the truth.

Wether the Russian media are right or wrong, all the people sitting throwing accusations at Putin don't know the truth either. Putin is this, that and the other, and he may well be. I don't think it's fair to point the finger at him, over this horrible horrible incident, before we actually know the facts.

[Hibrandenburg]

Wether the Russian media are right or wrong, all the people sitting throwing accusations at Putin don't know the truth either. Putin is this, that and the other, and he may well be. I don't think it's fair to point the finger at him, over this horrible horrible incident, before we actually know the facts.

No matter what the truth is there are humans killing other humans on his watch. He has to take the rap.

[easty]

No matter what the truth is there are humans killing other humans on his watch. He has to take the rap.

For the plane being shot down? No, he doesn't.

[Hibs Class]

For the plane being shot down? No, he doesn't.

What's your rationale for saying Putin isn't to blame? Presumably you would agree that culpability goes beyond whoever actually fired the missile, so why do you exclude Putin from that?

[easty]

What's your rationale for saying Putin isn't to blame? Presumably you would agree that culpability goes beyond whoever actually fired the missile, so why do you exclude Putin from that?

I'm not saying he's not to blame. I'm saying we don't know who is to blame, simply countering the popular opinion that it's Putin, which seems to be "Putins mental, it was him what done it".

I'd also not blame him if it turned out that the rebels did it using weapons handed to then by Putin. I don't believe Russia would have handed over weapons knowing or thinking that a passenger plane would be shot down using them.

If you give a bunch of kids water pistols to go play with, and instead of playing with them the way you expected, they ran into a restaurant and sprayed everyone and their food. Would you be to blame for that? No.

[Sylar]

I'm not saying he's not to blame. I'm saying we don't know who is to blame, simply countering the popular opinion that it's Putin, which seems to be "Putins mental, it was him what done it".

I'd also not blame him if it turned out that the rebels did it using weapons handed to then by Putin. I don't believe Russia would have handed over weapons knowing or thinking that a passenger plane would be shot down using them.

If you give a bunch of kids water pistols to go play with, and instead of playing with them the way you expected, they ran into a restaurant and sprayed everyone and their food. Would you be to blame for that? No.

This is the argument gun-shop owners use in the States whenever someone goes on a mass shooting.

However, there is a difference between Moscow arming rebels fighting a cause they're sympathetic to with basic artillery/weaponry to arming them with an advanced SAM missile system, which requires expert operation. There is indeed doubt that rebels have the sufficient knowledge to launch such a system, thus casting doubt on whether or not these 'rebels' are indeed just plain-clothed Russian military.

What then?

[easty]

This is the argument gun-shop owners use in the States whenever someone goes on a mass shooting.

However, there is a difference between Moscow arming rebels fighting a cause they're sympathetic to with basic artillery/weaponry to arming them with an advanced SAM missile system, which requires expert operation. There is indeed doubt that rebels have the sufficient knowledge to launch such a system, thus casting doubt on whether or not these 'rebels' are indeed just plain-clothed Russian military.

What then?

And it's a fair argument. I'm not saying I agree with the right to bear arms. But where it's legal to own a gun it's not the fault of the gun shop owners, when a customer goes nuts.

If it turns out to be Russian military impersonating the rebels then that obviously changes things. I've yet to see or hear any actual evidence that's the case though. Innocent until proven guilty, unless it's Putin?

[Lucius Apuleius]

I'm not saying he's not to blame. I'm saying we don't know who is to blame, simply countering the popular opinion that it's Putin, which seems to be "Putins mental, it was him what done it".

I'd also not blame him if it turned out that the rebels did it using weapons handed to then by Putin. I don't believe Russia would have handed over weapons knowing or thinking that a passenger plane would be shot down using them.

If you give a bunch of kids water pistols to go play with, and instead of playing with them the way you expected, they ran into a restaurant and sprayed everyone and their food. Would you be to blame for that? No.

Disagree, as the root cause of them spraying the food was you giving them the water pistols.

[easty]

Disagree, as the root cause of them spraying the food was you giving them the water pistols.

No.

Who's at fault when, after a night necking JD and coke, a driver crashes his Corsa into someone on the way home?

The driver? Jack Daniels? Vauxhall? The barman?

[Phil D. Rolls]

And it's a fair argument. I'm not saying I agree with the right to bear arms. But where it's legal to own a gun it's not the fault of the gun shop owners, when a customer goes nuts.

If it turns out to be Russian military impersonating the rebels then that obviously changes things. I've yet to see or hear any actual evidence that's the case though. Innocent until proven guilty, unless it's Putin?

If they keep saying that, it will be true (which is basically what the US constitution allows them to do). It's like saying that if I can legally buy a gun, it's not my fault if I kill somebody with it.

If you don't sell somebody a gun, they can't use it. If you say it's alright to sell guns, then you are saying its alright to kill people with them.

[easty]

If they keep saying that, it will be true (which is basically what the US constitution allows them to do). It's like saying that if I can legally buy a gun, it's not my fault if I kill somebody with it.

If you don't sell somebody a gun, they can't use it. If you say it's alright to sell guns, then you are saying its alright to kill people with them.

The bit in bold is just rubbish. Pure rubbish. It's nothing like that, and you know it.

Your second point. I agree, but don't have a problem, with.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The bit in bold is just rubbish. Pure rubbish. It's nothing like that, and you know it.

Your second point. I agree, but don't have a problem, with.

We all have personal responsibility for our actions. To suggest that gun dealers have no responsibility for what people do with their merchandise is wrong. They have a choice about whether to sell guns, if nobody sold guns, nobody could use them.

(Actually, that's my second point isn't it?)

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not saying he's not to blame. I'm saying we don't know who is to blame, simply countering the popular opinion that it's Putin, which seems to be "Putins mental, it was him what done it".

I'd also not blame him if it turned out that the rebels did it using weapons handed to then by Putin. I don't believe Russia would have handed over weapons knowing or thinking that a passenger plane would be shot down using them.

If you give a bunch of kids water pistols to go play with, and instead of playing with them the way you expected, they ran into a restaurant and sprayed everyone and their food. Would you be to blame for that? No.

If you were the parent then yes, definitely!

[Hibrandenburg]

No.

Who's at fault when, after a night necking JD and coke, a driver crashes his Corsa into someone on the way home?

The driver? Jack Daniels? Vauxhall? The barman?

If the driver is an adult then ultimately he is responsible.

[Phil D. Rolls]

If the driver is an adult then ultimately he is responsible.

If the barman knew the guy was driving home, he also has some responsibility though.

[Hibrandenburg]

If the barman knew the guy was driving home, he also has some responsibility though.

As does his mother for not teaching him responsibility. What's your point?

[Phil D. Rolls]

As does his mother for not teaching him responsibility. What's your point?

I think the barman has the chance to stop the guy drink driving, by not selling booze, or telling the police. Doing nothing makes him complicit.

The values his mother taught him is a more abstract concept, and you could use alcohol impairing his judgement as an excuse.

The barman, is presumably sober, and able to make a direct connection between his actions - selling drink - and the potential for a mishap.

What were we talking about again?

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the barman has the chance to stop the guy drink driving, by not selling booze, or telling the police. Doing nothing makes him complicit.

The values his mother taught him is a more abstract concept, and you could use alcohol impairing his judgement as an excuse.

The barman, is presumably sober, and able to make a direct connection between his actions - selling drink - and the potential for a mishap.

What were we talking about again?

Ok, Putin is the barman.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Ok, Putin is the barman.

I say, he had to take some responsibility; he would say, "says who".

If he gave the weapons to untrained operators, I'd be very surprised. He's not as mad as people make out.

[harpo]

This is the argument gun-shop owners use in the States whenever someone goes on a mass shooting.

However, there is a difference between Moscow arming rebels fighting a cause they're sympathetic to with basic artillery/weaponry to arming them with an advanced SAM missile system, which requires expert operation. There is indeed doubt that rebels have the sufficient knowledge to launch such a system, thus casting doubt on whether or not these 'rebels' are indeed just plain-clothed Russian military.

What then?

Why would the Russians bring down a passenger jet?

What motive would they have?

[Hibs Class]

Why would the Russians bring down a passenger jet?

What motive would they have?

I haven't seen any suggestion that they fired on it knowing it was a passenger plane. Assumption is that they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane, supported by the mobile and social media intercepts in the immediate aftermath, before they realised their mistake.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I say, he had to take some responsibility; he would say, "says who".

If he gave the weapons to untrained operators, I'd be very surprised. He's not as mad as people make out.

What if the barman never knew he was going to drive?

[steakbake]

Why would the Russians bring down a passenger jet?

What motive would they have?

The Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine did, backed practically with Russian equipment.

Putin didn't order it, pull the trigger etc. IMO one of the separatists blew the plane out if the sky in a case of mistaken identity. You have digital footprints: news on the day- from their own social media channels - that the separatists had taken out a Ukrainian transportation plane, swiftly removed. Video of a surface to air missile unit being taken across the border into Russia a couple of hours after the flight was downed.

It was a case of mistaken identity, but it was a Russian separatist fighter using Russian built and supplied equipment that killed 290 people. Dutch police are having to negotiate with Putin's man who is the de facto pm of that region.

Certainly, that's the way it looks and there's little to back up any claims it was brought down by the Ukrainians.

[easty]

The Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine did, backed practically with Russian equipment.

Putin didn't order it, pull the trigger etc. IMO one of the separatists blew the plane out if the sky in a case of mistaken identity. You have digital footprints: news on the day- from their own social media channels - that the separatists had taken out a Ukrainian transportation plane, swiftly removed. Video of a surface to air missile unit being taken across the border into Russia a couple of hours after the flight was downed.

It was a case of mistaken identity, but it was a Russian separatist fighter using Russian built and supplied equipment that killed 290 people. Dutch police are having to negotiate with Putin's man who is the de facto pm of that region.

Certainly, that's the way it looks and there's little to back up any claims it was brought down by the Ukrainians.

That's the most likely explanation in my opinion. I just don't think that means Putin is to blame. Very different from when the US shot down the Iranian airways plane.

[RyeSloan]

That's the most likely explanation in my opinion. I just don't think that means Putin is to blame. Very different from when the US shot down the Iranian airways plane.

But Putin is clearly the orchestrator of the destabilisation of Eastern Ukraine, he is clearly supply materiel, advice and men (a number if Russian special forces troops have been identified in the 'rebels' midst) and defacto support to their cause (which just happens to be aligned to Russia's interests)....yet Putin is not to blame?!

I'm struggling to understand just how you come to that conclusion I really am. What do you think would happen in Ukraine is Putin decided tomorrow to withdraw all support to the rebels?

[Betty Boop]

The Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine did, backed practically with Russian equipment.

Putin didn't order it, pull the trigger etc. IMO one of the separatists blew the plane out if the sky in a case of mistaken identity. You have digital footprints: news on the day- from their own social media channels - that the separatists had taken out a Ukrainian transportation plane, swiftly removed. Video of a surface to air missile unit being taken across the border into Russia a couple of hours after the flight was downed.

It was a case of mistaken identity, but it was a Russian separatist fighter using Russian built and supplied equipment that killed 290 people. Dutch police are having to negotiate with Putin's man who is the de facto pm of that region.

Certainly, that's the way it looks and there's little to back up any claims it was brought down by the Ukrainians.


What about our own government ? Still selling arms to Russia, despite calling on France to halt the delivery of fighter jets to Moscow. :rolleyes:

[steakbake]

What about our own government ? Still selling arms to Russia, despite calling on France to halt the delivery of fighter jets from Moscow. :rolleyes:

Well, indeed. The death industry.

[easty]

But Putin is clearly the orchestrator of the destabilisation of Eastern Ukraine, he is clearly supply materiel, advice and men (a number if Russian special forces troops have been identified in the 'rebels' midst) and defacto support to their cause (which just happens to be aligned to Russia's interests)....yet Putin is not to blame?!

I'm struggling to understand just how you come to that conclusion I really am. What do you think would happen in Ukraine is Putin decided tomorrow to withdraw all support to the rebels?

Why shouldn't he support the rebels exactly? Where have you read that Russian Special Forces are in with the rebels? I read something a while back about a "guy with a beard from the rebels" who looked like a "guy with a beard from Russian Special Forces", but it was in no way clear that they were the same person, in fact it's quite possible 2 people have beards in that area of the world.

Did Putin order the shooting down of the airplane? Did he hand over weapons to the rebels and tell them to go do whatever they wanted? So far, I've read nothing to suggest that he did either. All I've read is Putin is a bad man so lets blame the bad man.

As for - What do you think would happen in Ukraine is Putin decided tomorrow to withdraw all support to the rebels? I don't see how that's relevant to whether Putin is at fault for the plane being shot down.

[RyeSloan]

Why shouldn't he support the rebels exactly? Where have you read that Russian Special Forces are in with the rebels? I read something a while back about a "guy with a beard from the rebels" who looked like a "guy with a beard from Russian Special Forces", but it was in no way clear that they were the same person, in fact it's quite possible 2 people have beards in that area of the world. Did Putin order the shooting down of the airplane? Did he hand over weapons to the rebels and tell them to go do whatever they wanted? So far, I've read nothing to suggest that he did either. All I've read is Putin is a bad man so lets blame the bad man. As for - What do you think would happen in Ukraine is Putin decided tomorrow to withdraw all support to the rebels? I don't see how that's relevant to whether Putin is at fault for the plane being shot down.

I didn't say he ordered the shooting down of the plane.

What I am saying is that he is instigating and supporting the insurgency in Ukraine. He is also clearly allowing military materiel to be supplied to them across Russian borders.

Add in the fact that using these SAM's takes technical expertise then you could early surmise that in all probability Russia is providing technical as well as practical assistance to the rebels.

Therefore the situation on the ground is very much a creation of Russian geopolitical aims so the fall out of those actions should, quite fairly, fall at the door of the person responsible for them...Mr Putin himself.

[RyeSloan]

And as for the special forces...Russia denied exactly the same in Crimea then lo and behold admitted it had indeed had Russian personnel on the ground .

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKL6N0N921H20140417?irpc=932

[easty]

I didn't say he ordered the shooting down of the plane.

What I am saying is that he is instigating and supporting the insurgency in Ukraine. He is also clearly allowing military materiel to be supplied to them across Russian borders.

Add in the fact that using these SAM's takes technical expertise then you could early surmise that in all probability Russia is providing technical as well as practical assistance to the rebels.

Therefore the situation on the ground is very much a creation of Russian geopolitical aims so the fall out of those actions should, quite fairly, fall at the door of the person responsible for them...Mr Putin himself.

He's not instigating it. He is supporting it, and whats the problem with that? We supported the rebels in Libya. We gave them equipment and trained them.

The situation on the ground is not a creation of Russian aims. It's due to the bad decisions of the Ukrainian government.

[easty]

And as for the special forces...Russia denied exactly the same in Crimea then lo and behold admitted it had indeed had Russian personnel on the ground .

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKL6N0N921H20140417?irpc=932

I'm aware of that, but "Look, they did this before" is not a good argument.

[RyeSloan]

He's not instigating it. He is supporting it, and whats the problem with that? We supported the rebels in Libya. We gave them equipment and trained them. The situation on the ground is not a creation of Russian aims. It's due to the bad decisions of the Ukrainian government.

You mean the bad decisions of the Ukrainian government that was in the pocket of Putin that caused the independence square protests?

There is not much point in discussing this further if you don't believe the hand of Russia is behind the insurgency..it's almost a copy book play from the Crimea. Armed rebels appear, quick fire 'referendums' held, separation demands made, Russia backing the right of the 'people'...but if you believe all that happened without orchestration from Russia in Eastern Ukraine then so be it!

[RyeSloan]

I'm aware of that, but "Look, they did this before" is not a good argument.

Aye ok...you do know one of the rebel leaders is an ex Russian army colonel yeah?

[judas]

Speaking with some colleagues today, we think a full scale invasion of Russia (with nuclear deployment) is required. Russia has committed this act by proxy and with impunity because it has an economic hold on the West.

History is written by strong nations who act decisively. It's the reason we sit in our warm houses, with full bellies posting messages on our expensive hardware. Britain guaranteed our wealth for future generations through colonisation and such like and now fat liberals wet themselves in their pebble dashed new builds, because someone uses the word 'puffter' instead of 'gay' and someone else, has the temerity to laugh at women's football.

Now Russia is harbouring a massive resource, whilst committing atrocities. China needs gas, Europe needs gas and the US is almost bankrupt and losing its place after thinking it had won some 'cold war' - do you think that's air you're breathing?

A full scale invasion on several fronts would take Russia down a peg or two and ensure the wealth of the victors for generations to come.

Btw. I was in Russia once, so this isn't easy to say.

[Just Alf]

"Nuclear deployment"

Oh ma sides!!!

:faf:

[over the line]

Speaking with some colleagues today, we think a full scale invasion of Russia (with nuclear deployment) is required. Russia has committed this act by proxy and with impunity because it has an economic hold on the West.

History is written by strong nations who act decisively. It's the reason we sit in our warm houses, with full bellies posting messages on our expensive hardware. Britain guaranteed our wealth for future generations through colonisation and such like and now fat liberals wet themselves in their pebble dashed new builds, because someone uses the word 'puffter' instead of 'gay' and someone else, has the temerity to laugh at women's football.

Now Russia is harbouring a massive resource, whilst committing atrocities. China needs gas, Europe needs gas and the US is almost bankrupt and losing its place after thinking it had won some 'cold war' - do you think that's air your breathing?

A full scale invasion on several fronts would take Russia down a peg or two and ensure the wealth of the victors for generations to come.

Btw. I was in Russia once, so this isn't easy to say.

Light the blue touch paper and stand well back! I think you might get the reaction you are looking for, I feel some on here might disagree with you a tad? :eek:

I admire your belief in a no nonsense approach and your conviction........ buuuuuut, not too keen on a nuclear war I have to say. :what:

Or is it just a wind up? Can't make my mind up.

[Hibrandenburg]

Speaking with some colleagues today, we think a full scale invasion of Russia (with nuclear deployment) is required. Russia has committed this act by proxy and with impunity because it has an economic hold on the West.

History is written by strong nations who act decisively. It's the reason we sit in our warm houses, with full bellies posting messages on our expensive hardware. Britain guaranteed our wealth for future generations through colonisation and such like and now fat liberals wet themselves in their pebble dashed new builds, because someone uses the word 'puffter' instead of 'gay' and someone else, has the temerity to laugh at women's football.

Now Russia is harbouring a massive resource, whilst committing atrocities. China needs gas, Europe needs gas and the US is almost bankrupt and losing its place after thinking it had won some 'cold war' - do you think that's air your breathing?

A full scale invasion on several fronts would take Russia down a peg or two and ensure the wealth of the victors for generations to come.

Btw. I was in Russia once, so this isn't easy to say.

Good ladd, now get yourself along to the careers office and sign the dotted line. I'll sleep much easier at night knowing keyboard warriors like your good self have our national safety at hand.

[The_Todd]

Speaking with some colleagues today, we think a full scale invasion of Russia (with nuclear deployment) is required. Russia has committed this act by proxy and with impunity because it has an economic hold on the West.

History is written by strong nations who act decisively. It's the reason we sit in our warm houses, with full bellies posting messages on our expensive hardware. Britain guaranteed our wealth for future generations through colonisation and such like and now fat liberals wet themselves in their pebble dashed new builds, because someone uses the word 'puffter' instead of 'gay' and someone else, has the temerity to laugh at women's football.

Now Russia is harbouring a massive resource, whilst committing atrocities. China needs gas, Europe needs gas and the US is almost bankrupt and losing its place after thinking it had won some 'cold war' - do you think that's air your breathing?

A full scale invasion on several fronts would take Russia down a peg or two and ensure the wealth of the victors for generations to come.

Btw. I was in Russia once, so this isn't easy to say.

It'd take the entire planet down a peg or twenty.

You're full tilt barking.

[Sylar]

Second time in this thread that this 'judas' roaster has advocated nuclear war...

Evidently not happy enough at the lack of response first time he tried it.

:troll:

[Geo_1875]

Speaking with some colleagues today, we think a full scale invasion of Russia (with nuclear deployment) is required. Russia has committed this act by proxy and with impunity because it has an economic hold on the West.

History is written by strong nations who act decisively. It's the reason we sit in our warm houses, with full bellies posting messages on our expensive hardware. Britain guaranteed our wealth for future generations through colonisation and such like and now fat liberals wet themselves in their pebble dashed new builds, because someone uses the word 'puffter' instead of 'gay' and someone else, has the temerity to laugh at women's football.

Now Russia is harbouring a massive resource, whilst committing atrocities. China needs gas, Europe needs gas and the US is almost bankrupt and losing its place after thinking it had won some 'cold war' - do you think that's air you're breathing?

A full scale invasion on several fronts would take Russia down a peg or two and ensure the wealth of the victors for generations to come.

Btw. I was in Russia once, so this isn't easy to say.

Excellent :wink:

I think you've upset our Liberal friends just a little bit.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Speaking with some colleagues today, we think a full scale invasion of Russia (with nuclear deployment) is required. Russia has committed this act by proxy and with impunity because it has an economic hold on the West.

History is written by strong nations who act decisively. It's the reason we sit in our warm houses, with full bellies posting messages on our expensive hardware. Britain guaranteed our wealth for future generations through colonisation and such like and now fat liberals wet themselves in their pebble dashed new builds, because someone uses the word 'puffter' instead of 'gay' and someone else, has the temerity to laugh at women's football.

Now Russia is harbouring a massive resource, whilst committing atrocities. China needs gas, Europe needs gas and the US is almost bankrupt and losing its place after thinking it had won some 'cold war' - do you think that's air you're breathing?

A full scale invasion on several fronts would take Russia down a peg or two and ensure the wealth of the victors for generations to come.

Btw. I was in Russia once, so this isn't easy to say.

You head out first, we will be right behind you.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Are people actually taking judas' post seriously?

[Hibs Class]

Are people actually taking judas' post seriously?


With the possible exception of Judas himself, probably not. That said, this isn't really a thread for comedy so who knows.

[Just Alf]

You just cant make this up .... actually.... someone has :rolleyes:

http://humansarefree.com/2014/07/busted-mh-17-was-in-fact-lost-flight-mh.html

[StevieC]

I am meant to be travelling to Ukraine next month, I hope that Russia holds off on its all out assault until October!

I am double checking what I am covered for with my Travel Insurance.