What the hell is going on?

[Lucius Apuleius]

We still signed Heffernan and Zoubir on deadline day to address perceived gaps in the squad. Worked out a treat

A bit selective brother Tyler. The ones we signed earlier were rubbish too.

[Borderhibbie76]

I think you are being severely disingenuous in this post mate, I understand the siege mentality style thinking but to suggest Kris Boyd or Darren McGregor wouldn't be welcome at Easter Road or even that Zaliulas isn't better than what we have or James Keatings, who banged in 15 goals in this League last year...its easy to say how many would improve, the point is ALL teams seem to be striving to improve their squads and are actively doing so.

For the record I'd rather Stubbs took his time and signed the right players than rush through any old signing for the sake of it however the manager and the CEO just have to accept that actions will speak louder than words for many at the moment, the fans have been battered from pillar to post for years, trust and patience will be afforded in time but for now trust will unfortunately have to be earned and patience is something I doubt most Hibees have right now and quite rightly so
What a great post mate...1 of the best ive read on here for ages and sums up the current situation perfectly.
Unlike previous years, I like many hibbies am no longer prepared to put up my money upfront and "wait and see" what happens re player recruitment. I have done this for the last X no of years and blind loyalty has now run dry. LD and co need to start delivering to show us their ambitions and get us to part with our cash. She stated on day 1 her aim was promotion...ive seen very little to back this up so far in terms of building a squad capable of competing with them 2 and even Falkirk to a lesser extent. No matter how many times the quality over quantity mantra is repeated...we r not in a good place right now and I think we will struggle without decent additions. Why should we continue to pay top prices for STs when other teams are showing more ambition on terms of recruitment? Fwiw, I did email these thoughts over 3 weeks ago to the club in a polite and concerned manner and not even had a response, despite LD promising more transparency and better communication with fans!

[CockneyRebel]

What a great post mate...1 of the best ive read on here for ages and perfectly sums up the current situation.Unlike previous years, I like many hibbies am no longer prepared to put up my money upfront and "wait and see" what happens re player recruitment. I have done this for the last X no of years and blind loyalty has now run dry. LD and co need to start delivering to show us their ambitions and get us to part with our cash. She stated on day 1 her aim was promotion...ive seen very little to back this up so far in terms of building a squad capable of competing with them 2 and even Falkirk to a lesser extent. No matter how many times the quality over quantity mantra is repeated...we r not in a good place right now and I think we will struggle without decent additions. Why should we continue to pay top prices for STs when other teams are showing more ambition on terms of recruitment? Fwiw, I did email these thoughts over 3 weeks ago to the club in a polite and concerned manner and not even had a response, despite LD promising more transparency and better communication with fans!

It doesn't sum up the situation at all, only as you see it.

[HibbyAndy]

He will get 15+ £20 quid charity bet?

No danger he will get 15+ goals, The guy is absolute woeful. I'l take your charity bet but make it £100.

[Borderhibbie76]

It doesn't sum up the situation at all, only as you see it.
It sums up how a lot of fans are currently feeling including myself

[CockneyRebel]

It sums up how a lot of fans are currently feeling including myself

How many is a lot? Until you can prove a majority you should just say IMO. (IMO)

[Borderhibbie76]

How many is a lot? Until you can prove a majority you should just say IMO. (IMO)
Ur clearly looking for an argument but u wont be finding 1 here...this is a forum mate and we r all allowed to post opinions etc..If u havent grasped the fact that a lot of hibs fans are unhappy atm then u cant have read many threads on here...or the fact we r struggling to sell ST's might be another clue??

[Spike Mandela]

How many is a lot? Until you can prove a majority you should just say IMO. (IMO)

I would say that at least 3000 season ticket sales down would suggest many are feeling this way.

Having paid my season ticket early and £400 to boot I must admit I wasn't expecting at this stage in pre season to be still watching Nelson, Stevenson, Jones, Handling and the like trying to be football players.

I had hoped fresh start and plenty new faces to augment the youthful potential in our team. It still feels same old, same old to me at the moment.

[Zazu62]

Lewis Stevenson at LB, Nelson at CH and jones and Craig swanning about in midfield . Nah, yer alright.

[Nutmegged]

Two and a half yards with no goalie,. in a derby, obviously was not the 'ammunition' he really needed maybe?

Meh, it was a terrible miss but strikers miss chances, the important thing is to keep the chances coming, if you give a half decent striker 3/4 chances in a game the chances are he'll take at least 1

[CockneyRebel]

I would say that at least 3000 season ticket sales down would suggest many are feeling this way.

Having paid my season ticket early and £400 to boot I must admit I wasn't expecting at this stage in pre season to be still watching Nelson, Stevenson, Jones, Handling and the like trying to be football players.

I had hoped fresh start and plenty new faces to augment the youthful potential in our team. It still feels same old, same old to me at the moment.

But more than 5k STs bought so plenty people don't agree with the (IMO) too early doom and gloom scenario.

[Keith_M]

But more than 5k STs bought so plenty people don't agree with the (IMO) too early doom and gloom scenario.


The majority of those tickets were bought months ago, before Hibs were relegated. It hardly reflects the general feeling about our current situation.

I have a question for you. Do you genuinely think we would have sold that many if STs were put on sale from the day after we were relegated?

----

FWIW, My view of our situation is mixed.

I've been encouraged that our new CEO has said the right things: More emphasis on the Football side of things; Openness with Supporters; Our aim should be to win the league.

I'm also encouraged that our new Coaching Team seems to have strong views on playing Football the right way and have ditched the Hoofball. AS has also said he wants to sign quality. We have even had a reasonably encouraging pre-season so far, though we have yet to play decent oppostion.

On the down side: We should not be playing in the First Division (Championship); Season Ticket sales have almost completely stalled since relegation; Our Season Ticket pricing Policy and current lack of signings are not encouraging new Sales. We are still VERY short in many positions, including Goalkeeper and a decent Striker.

[#2 Double Tap]

Its all too quiet!

[livi hibby]

I bought three season tickets before we went down and still happy to pay the amount they have asked for but not to happy at the idea of watching the same guys that got us here only two signed so far if its stays that way I wont pay for season tickets next year I want to see us win this league at a canter not interested in what else goes on at the club at this moment in time just whats on the pitch

[mcfly]

I have no doubts that the chief exec is saying the right things.

However we have released about 15 players and signed 2 so we must be sitting on a decent pot of money so im expecting at least 2-3 quality players.

I'm sorry but I'm not buying into the new board etc until I see some intent so over to you AS and LD

[Borderhibbie76]

The majority of those tickets were bought months ago, before Hibs were relegated. It hardly reflects the general feeling about our current situation.

I have a question for you. Do you genuinely think we would have sold that many if STs were put on sale from the day after we were relegated?

----

FWIW, My view of our situation is mixed.

I've been encouraged that our new CEO has said the right things: More emphasis on the Football side of things; Openness with Supporters; Our aim should be to win the league.

I'm also encouraged that our new Coaching Team seems to have strong views on playing Football the right way and have ditched the Hoofball. AS has also said he wants to sign quality. We have even had a reasonably encouraging pre-season so far, though we have yet to play decent oppostion.

On the down side: We should not be playing in the First Division (Championship); Season Ticket sales have almost completely stalled since relegation; Our Season Ticket pricing Policy and current lack of signings are not encouraging new Sales. We are still VERY short in many positions, including Goalkeeper and a decent Striker.
That's pretty much spot on mate...the positives are the fresh approach of LD and AS and laying the foundations in terms of coaching set up. But we need some action and encouraging signs in terms of player recruitment, that alone will convince Hibs fans to but ST's. IMO the pricing policy is completely wrong and was very short sighted of Hibs as Im certain reduced prices would have lead to more ST sales...TBH to me it reeks of Petrie no matter how much LD claims it was solely her decision. But the decision has been made so over to you LD and AS, start tempting ST sales by showing some ambition and a bit of statement of intent!!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

That's pretty much spot on mate...the positives are the fresh approach of LD and AS and laying the foundations in terms of coaching set up. But we need some action and encouraging signs in terms of player recruitment, that alone will convince Hibs fans to but ST's. IMO the pricing policy is completely wrong and was very short sighted of Hibs as Im certain reduced prices would have lead to more ST sales...TBH to me it reeks of Petrie no matter how much LD claims it was solely her decision. But the decision has been made so over to you LD and AS, start tempting ST sales by showing some ambition and a bit of statement of intent!!

"Reeks of Petrie"...

I think you'll find that one of the first things LD was consult widely on STs. It was then discussed at a meeting of Working Together. I think she was in between a rock and a hard place. But I understand overall feedback was that those paid would in the main like the club to keep the money paid/signed up for. There was also the option of money's going to kicks for kids.

I hate that phrase and the negativity that goes with it as a hindrance to our great club. Time to change the record and mindset IMO. It's LDs call and right lot wrongly she'll take responsibility for it and rightly so.

[Onion]

"Reeks of Petrie"...

I think you'll find that one of the first things LD was consult widely on STs. It was then discussed at a meeting of Working Together. I think she was in between a rock and a hard place. But I understand overall feedback was that those paid would in the main like the club to keep the money paid/signed up for. There was also the option of money's going to kicks for kids.

I hate that phrase and the negativity that goes with it as a hindrance to our great club. Time to change the record and mindset IMO. It's LDs call and right lot wrongly she'll take responsibility for it and rightly so.

If that's true, then there was little harm in offering a refund to those who bought their STs. The fact remains these tickets were bought in expectation of Prem football (no Huns, no Yams) and complete refresh of the first team. What we've got is a threadbare squad of leftovers who relegated the club. Petrie's DNA all over this mess.

[Pete]

If that's true, then there was little harm in offering a refund to those who bought their STs. The fact remains these tickets were bought in expectation of Prem football (no Huns, no Yams) and complete refresh of the first team. What we've got is a threadbare squad of leftovers who relegated the club. Petrie's DNA all over this mess.

If you were to ask someone to describe our current situation in the most depressing, negative and harmful way possible then you would be hard pressed to top this.

If people who think this way are actually hibs fans then why bother? It can't bring you any joy.

[Forza Fred]

If you were to ask someone to describe our current situation in the most depressing, negative and harmful way possible then you would be hard pressed to top this.

If people who think this way are actually hibs fans then why bother? It can't bring you any joy.

The OP called it a 'threadbare squad'

I this regard I think his description is absolutely accurate.

[BoltonHibee]

If you were to ask someone to describe our current situation in the most depressing, negative and harmful way possible then you would be hard pressed to top this.

If people who think this way are actually hibs fans then why bother? It can't bring you any joy.

What's he stated that's not actually true? Depressing maybe, truthful though.

[Turkish Green]

If people who think this way are actually hibs fans then why bother? It can't bring you any joy.
I am another that thinks this way. Watching Hibs does not bring me any joy at the moment. Why do we bother? Why did 18,000 bother to turn up for the 2nd Hamilton game? HOPE.

I am hoping LD and AS will turn TB's abject failure around and put a team on the pitch that is a pleasure to watch and brings promotion. HOPE.

i will always have HOPE but that does not mean that I ignore the blatantly obvious: that Hibs' current squad is threadbare to say the least.

[Ronniekirk]

The answer is simple The Winds of Change have swept through and Transformed our Back room Staff . Post Hoofball we are now playing the ball on the Deck and the Evidence is there for all to see if you go along to any of the Friendlies coming up .
Leeann has been working away doing what she can to divert money from other Budgets to the First Team so unless we shift more Season Tickets or get an Influx of new Sponsorship money then Stubbs knows what lFunds he has at his Disposal .
The big issue for me was always going to be how do we attract new players to the Club and how do potential signing targets view us and our chances of coming straight back up with Sevco and Hear7s in the mix . Stubbs has begun to indicate a Frustration at lack of new signings and has said a few deals are still on the Table for Players and he is prepared to wait a few more days to see if they get over the line . A flurry of early Quality Signings was what we needed but changing Managers mitigated against this happening .
I have no idea what Hearts are paying Thier new recruits ,but it could be that they are in a position to pay better wages than we are offering .They have shifted over 11 000 Season Tickets so Players know they will play in Front of a decent sized crowd and given their record against us maybe just maybe , these things are starting to impact on players hedging their bets about coming to us as they are not convinced we are coming straight back up so won't sign two year deals . This is all pure speculation but I am at a loss as to why there hasn't been more activity on the Transfer Front .
Those that are considering buying a Season Ticket are still in the main saying I haven't seen enough intent by the Board .Intent being getting a few more Quality Players in .
So what the Hell can we now do ? The answer is as suspected now look to young loan players from Everton They may well have potential but at some point we may need to roll up our sleeves to grind out results and to many young players as we know leads to inconsistent performances over a season .
There is still time but unless the current contracts offered are accepted soon we are clearing going down to second choice players .

So while the Times They Are A Changing ,at present the Wind may be Blowing against us .

i have my Season Ticket and my Son will probably get one at end of month under the new payment plan so let's hope we get these signings over the line this week .

[greenpaper55]

What should be happening is Sir Tom, putting his hand in his pocket and paying for some decent players after all it was his total support for the "conduit" that has got us in this mess. As usual though it seems that it's the fans that have to bail that pair out once again and it's no surprise that many are sticking two fingers up to them !.

[ian omand]

What should be happening is Sir Tom, putting his hand in his pocket and paying for some decent players after all it was his total support for the "conduit" that has got us in this mess. As usual though it seems that it's the fans that have to bail that pair out once again and it's no surprise that many are sticking two fingers up to them !.

This, he has had a very easy ride through all of this, in my opinion, and if he
had confidence in the recently appointed people, then why not, as someone
proposed on here a few weeks ago, put up the equivalent of 10000 season
ticket monies to allow them to compete with the huns and diet huns.
This money to be repaid if/when our season ticket sales top 10000.
Instead he and the conduit hide behind LDs skirt and let her take all the flak
and frustration from fed up Hibs fans.

[Lucius Apuleius]

What should be happening is Sir Tom, putting his hand in his pocket and paying for some decent players after all it was his total support for the "conduit" that has got us in this mess. As usual though it seems that it's the fans that have to bail that pair out once again and it's no surprise that many are sticking two fingers up to them !.


This, he has had a very easy ride through all of this, in my opinion, and if he
had confidence in the recently appointed people, then why not, as someone
proposed on here a few weeks ago, put up the equivalent of 10000 season
ticket monies to allow them to compete with the huns and diet huns.
This money to be repaid if/when our season ticket sales top 10000.
Instead he and the conduit hide behind LDs skirt and let her take all the flak
and frustration from fed up Hibs fans.

Eh, naw he shouldn't. Would you pump money into a football team apart from being a customer? Especially when the talk is of a takeover. You will also have to explain to me the economics of putting up the equivalent of 10,000 STs and then pay him it back when we reach 10k. How does the club get any money?

[Phil D. Rolls]

What should be happening is Sir Tom, putting his hand in his pocket and paying for some decent players after all it was his total support for the "conduit" that has got us in this mess. As usual though it seems that it's the fans that have to bail that pair out once again and it's no surprise that many are sticking two fingers up to them !.

Out of order. You might not care for what he has done for Hibs, but saying we are having to bail out Farmer, when it was him who saved us, makes me feel sick.

A great message to send out to anyone that might invest - "don't ever expect anyone to say thanks".

I don't know how old you are, but I'm wondering what you would have been saying to Farmer in 1990.

[ian omand]

Eh, naw he shouldn't. Would you pump money into a football team apart from being a customer? Especially when the talk is of a takeover. You will also have to explain to me the economics of putting up the equivalent of 10,000 STs and then pay him it back when we reach 10k. How does the club get any money?

As has been said in the past by Petrie, all season ticket money is given to the manager
to fund transfers.
It is not impossible that a club like Hibs could sell 10000.
So if the owner of this business were to hand over this amount
of cash and the supporters realised that he had serious ambitions
for his business then it is possible that they would respond by
investing in said season tickets.
Of course he could always do absolutely nothing and sit back and
watch as the fans decide that the quality offered for the price charged
coupled with the humiliations experienced over the past few years
was too much.

[Turkish Green]

What should be happening is Sir Tom, putting his hand in his pocket and paying for some decent players after all it was his total support for the "conduit" that has got us in this mess. As usual though it seems that it's the fans that have to bail that pair out once again and it's no surprise that many are sticking two fingers up to them !.


This, he has had a very easy ride through all of this, in my opinion, and if he had confidence in the recently appointed people, then why not, as someone proposed on here a few weeks ago, put up the equivalent of 10000 season ticket monies to allow them to compete with the huns and diet huns. This money to be repaid if/when our season ticket sales top 10000. Instead he and the conduit hide behind LDs skirt and let her take all the flak and frustration from fed up Hibs fans.

Obviously you guys were not around in 1990 when the club went into receivership and it looked like it would go out of business altogether.

STF never committed to investing into the club he only committed to saving the club. Which he has done for nearly 25 years. It is not his fault that so far no legitimate money men have come along to buy the club from him. While I dislike RP immensely I will not argue that he has been extremely prudent with the club's fiances.

What will be, will be. Criticising STF is bang out of order.

[blackpoolhibs]

As has been said in the past by Petrie, all season ticket money is given to the manager
to fund transfers.
It is not impossible that a club like Hibs could sell 10000.
So if the owner of this business were to hand over this amount
of cash and the supporters realised that he had serious ambitions
for his business then it is possible that they would respond by
investing in said season tickets.
Of course he could always do absolutely nothing and sit back and
watch as the fans decide that the quality offered for the price charged
coupled with the humiliations experienced over the past few years
was too much.

:agree: Lack of leadership from the very top has us where we are today. We are constantly told STF has no real interest in running the club, is it any wonder apathy has set in for some, when the people in control have no real desire to be there.

And when anyone dares to ask just why STF still wants to own the club, we are constantly told better the devil you know, or be careful what you wish for?

Well i just wish we had someone who owned us that wanted to own the club, and that person took an active part in running and leading us.

I also never wished for Hibs to be playing in the Championship. Perhaps the dire shape we are in now has flushed out some new investors, and also made STF aware that he's had enough and there are folk out there who want to run the club a damn site better than he has?

[Peevemor]

:agree: Lack of leadership from the very top has us where we are today. We are constantly told STF has no real interest in running the club, is it any wonder apathy has set in for some, when the people in control have no real desire to be there.

By whom?


And when anyone dares to ask just why STF still wants to own the club, we are constantly told better the devil you know, or be careful what you wish for?

Well i just wish we had someone who owned us that wanted to own the club, and that person took an active part in running and leading us.

I also never wished for Hibs to be playing in the Championship. Perhaps the dire shape we are in now has flushed out some new investors, and also made STF aware that he's had enough and there are folk out there who want to run the club a damn site better than he has?

So you believe that others have wanted to run the club badly?

[southsider]

Out of order. You might not care for what he has done for Hibs, but saying we are having to bail out Farmer, when it was him who saved us, makes me feel sick.

A great message to send out to anyone that might invest - "don't ever expect anyone to say thanks".

I don't know how old you are, but I'm wondering what you would have been saying to Farmer in 1990.
I heard we are in debt to STF for a further £2.5 million which will be shown in the forcoming accounts as a directors' loan. We only offered Jamie McDonald £875 a week. He is getting £1100 from Falkirk. We are skint whilst still paying Butcher and Malpas. What we have to do is insist he stays in Edinburgh, report for duty every day before getting sent home. Give him a real hard time so he quits (Malpas too).

[blackpoolhibs]

By whom?


There has been talk of this for years, from all sorts of folk supposedly in the know?


So you believe that others have wanted to run the club badly?

I don't believe anyone wants to run the club badly, but it has been run very shoddily in my opinion. So much so we find ourselves where we are today.

[Gordy M]

I heard we are in debt to STF for a further £2.5 million which will be shown in the forcoming accounts as a directors' loan. We only offered Jamie McDonald £875 a week. He is getting £1100 from Falkirk. We are skint whilst still paying Butcher and Malpas. What we have to do is insist he stays in Edinburgh, report for duty every day before getting sent home. Give him a real hard time so he quits (Malpas too).
We must have been paying some wages and compensation if we have lost 2.5 million in one year???? I though hibs paid poor wages and wouldnt fork out on players? Something doesnt add up? Could you expand where the money was lost?

Edit - just re-read that, has he given us another 2.5 million this year?

[GoldenEagle]

I heard we are in debt to STF for a further £2.5 million which will be shown in the forcoming accounts as a directors' loan. We only offered Jamie McDonald £875 a week. He is getting £1100 from Falkirk. We are skint whilst still paying Butcher and Malpas. What we have to do is insist he stays in Edinburgh, report for duty every day before getting sent home. Give him a real hard time so he quits (Malpas too).

Hibs never offered McDonald anything.

[southsider]

We must have been paying some wages and compensation if we have lost 2.5 million in one year???? I though hibs paid poor wages and wouldnt fork out on players? Something doesnt add up? Could you expand where the money was lost?

Edit - just re-read that, has he given us another 2.5 million this year?
Just passing on the info i was told. The accounts will be out very soon but seemingly we are loosing money hand over fist.

[southsider]

Hibs never offered McDonald anything.
Not what player himself has been saying.

[Pretty Boy]

Am I the only one feeling quite positive about Hibs at the moment?

Lot of changes in the background, couple of decent signings and more to follow, Booth back and looking good, Craig looking like the player we thought we had, Nelson looking better, Hanlon fit again, a passionate manger who seems to have an idea how he wants the team to play, no nasty off field headlines lately.......

A long way to go but we are slowly moving the right direction imo.

[Gordy M]

Am I the only one feeling quite positive about Hibs at the moment?

Lot of changes in the background, couple of decent signings and more to follow, Booth back and looking good, Craig looking like the player we thought we had, Nelson looking better, Hanlon fit again, a passionate manger who seems to have an idea how he wants the team to play......

A long way to go but we are slowly moving the right direction imo.

Totally agree mate, i also think that people are overestimating the quality of the championship(hope i dont regret typing this:greengrin) but i think even with no more signings we would finish in the top 3/4. With proper management and coaching i think we have some good players at the club. Add a few more faces and i think we will certainly be challenging this year.

[Nutmegged]

Out of order. You might not care for what he has done for Hibs, but saying we are having to bail out Farmer, when it was him who saved us, makes me feel sick.

A great message to send out to anyone that might invest - "don't ever expect anyone to say thanks".

I don't know how old you are, but I'm wondering what you would have been saying to Farmer in 1990.

I think Hibs fans have consistently shown their gratitude towards the man, no doubt he did save the club and most will be externally grateful for that but times move on, you can't just stand still and watch the club sink and say nothing just incase you hurt the feelings of a man who did once save the club.

You cannot expect fans to be held over a barrel for the rest of their lives - also who cares if fans were around in 1990, what about the 20 year old fans who have been going religiously for the last 12/13/14/15 years, does their opinion not mean as much simply because they weren't born when Farmer saved Hibs? They quite possibly don't feel suffocated with affection as they weren't around to witness what he did so they can make a judgement on what he has done since...they might have the most unbiased view of all

[Dave-O]

Obviously you guys were not around in 1990 when the club went into receivership and it looked like it would go out of business altogether.



Oh yes he was, every rally, I know for a fact cause I was with him, he phoned me the minute the story broke, he's even still got one off the balls kicked off the stage at the usher hall rally, so please dont go making silly statements to get your point over, the minute anyone on here calls for STF to help out in our hour of need everyone cites 1990, whilst were all grateful for what he did back then, it's the now and the future that needs addressed.

[Ozyhibby]

If we were as skint as some are trying to make out then why would we be expanding the back room team as much as we are. Or why would the decision have been made to get rid of butcher, which was an expensive business.
We will be losing money just now but so long as it does not continue for long then it will be manageable. We paid off a £1m of debt last year, so it would not be the end of the world if we had to borrow it back.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I heard we are in debt to STF for a further £2.5 million which will be shown in the forcoming accounts as a directors' loan. We only offered Jamie McDonald £875 a week. He is getting £1100 from Falkirk. We are skint whilst still paying Butcher and Malpas. What we have to do is insist he stays in Edinburgh, report for duty every day before getting sent home. Give him a real hard time so he quits (Malpas too).

Are we able to do that, and is there not a chance it could end up a bit of a circus?

Mind you they'd make great clowns to entertain the fans before the match. At half time, Terry could go round asking people what painting they would like to be, and at the end, Maurice could use his catchphrase to encourage folks to go home.

Let's face it, that's all they did last season.

[Lucius Apuleius]

As has been said in the past by Petrie, all season ticket money is given to the manager
to fund transfers.
It is not impossible that a club like Hibs could sell 10000.
So if the owner of this business were to hand over this amount
of cash and the supporters realised that he had serious ambitions
for his business then it is possible that they would respond by
investing in said season tickets.
Of course he could always do absolutely nothing and sit back and
watch as the fans decide that the quality offered for the price charged
coupled with the humiliations experienced over the past few years
was too much.

Not disagreeing with that. I am asking where the money is coming from if STF loans the amount for 10k and then gets paid that money back when we reach it. That is all the money gone away again as far as I can see.


Am I the only one feeling quite positive about Hibs at the moment?

Lot of changes in the background, couple of decent signings and more to follow, Booth back and looking good, Craig looking like the player we thought we had, Nelson looking better, Hanlon fit again, a passionate manger who seems to have an idea how he wants the team to play, no nasty off field headlines lately.......

A long way to go but we are slowly moving the right direction imo.

Not at all, I am with you. Also totally fed up listening to so much frign negativity.

[Caversham Green]

I heard we are in debt to STF for a further £2.5 million which will be shown in the forcoming accounts as a directors' loan. We only offered Jamie McDonald £875 a week. He is getting £1100 from Falkirk. We are skint whilst still paying Butcher and Malpas. What we have to do is insist he stays in Edinburgh, report for duty every day before getting sent home. Give him a real hard time so he quits (Malpas too).

So he's already done what people are calling for him to do? It won't be a director's loan though - he's not a director.


Just passing on the info i was told. The accounts will be out very soon but seemingly we are loosing money hand over fist.

The financial year hasn't ended yet so the accounts are unlikely to be published in the next three months at least.

[Ozyhibby]

So he's already done what people are calling for him to do? It won't be a director's loan though - he's not a director.



The financial year hasn't ended yet so the accounts are unlikely to be published in the next three months at least.

Don't our accounts usually come out in the summer?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Oh yes he was, every rally, I know for a fact cause I was with him, he phoned me the minute the story broke, he's even still got one off the balls kicked off the stage at the usher hall rally, so please dont go making silly statements to get your point over, the minute anyone on here calls for STF to help out in our hour of need everyone cites 1990, whilst were all grateful for what he did back then, it's the now and the future that needs addressed.

The future does need to be addressed, but there is no validity in rewriting history. We were grateful just to have a club, no harm in saying "thank you, but it's time to move on". It's a bit sickening to hear the implications that we are propping up Tom Farmer though.

[Ozyhibby]

Don't our accounts usually come out in the summer?

Just checked, 8th Sept last year.

[Caversham Green]

Just checked, 8th Sept last year.

That's quite quick for a 31 July year end - easy seen we have accountants running the club :devil:.

[--------]

Obviously you guys were not around in 1990 when the club went into receivership and it looked like it would go out of business altogether.

STF never committed to investing into the club he only committed to saving the club. Which he has done for nearly 25 years. It is not his fault that so far no legitimate money men have come along to buy the club from him. While I dislike RP immensely I will not argue that he has been extremely prudent with the club's fiances.

What will be, will be. Criticising STF is bang out of order.

Well, I was, and I agree with them.

I think if the fans had realised that STF's idea of 'saving' Hibs was to preserve the club like some sort of museum exhibit rather than running it as a living breathing football club, we wouldn't have been nearly as enthusiastic as we were. I certainly wouldn't have been.

To be fair, the period up to the arrival of Rod Petrie saw the club doing fairly well - at least the focus under chairmen like Dougie Cromb was on the football and not on the bottom line of the account sheet. But since Farmer put Petrie in charge - and allowed him to buy into the club, which effectively made him irremovable - the club has stagnated.

We have wonderful 'infrastructure' - stadium and training ground - but the football on offer has been getting worse and less attractive and less effective and competitive for years. The 'bones' of the club are great, but there hasn't been a lot of living flesh and blood on those bones since Tony Mowbray left.

THAT is certainly the responsibility of Farmer and his moustachioed Igor.

Prudent with the club's finances? I don't think so. Every season since Mowbray we've been movIng good players out and bringing in large numbers of 'replacements', most of whom have been embarrassingly and laughably inadequate. Money has been wasted bringing in new managers every 18 months - money spent paying compensation to the club from which we've signed the guy, money spent enticing him into the job, money spent allowing him to 'bring in his own team' (see above - 'embarrassingly and laughably inadequate'), money spent paying compensation when club and manager finally 'part by mutual consent' - whatever that means. MONEY WASTED.

And the one constant is the annual chorus from Igor - if the long-suffering fans (for fans, read 'paying customers') don't dig deep into their pockets to fork out another £350-400 a head for an ST to watch players as yet un-named and unsigned, Igor won't be able to put into action the latest instalment of his masterplan to save the Hibees. The fans have done this again and again, and been rewarded with mediocrity at best, at worst, utter rubbish.

BUT SAINT TOM AND THE BLESSED IGOR MUSTN'T BE BLAMED OR EVEN QUESTIONED - IT'S ALL BEEN THE FAULT OF THE NASTY FANS WANTING TO SEE A TEAM THAT CAN WIN THINGS.

(LIKE THE ODD GAME NOW AND AGAIN?)
BAD DOGS! NO BISCUITS! :slipper:

There's a world of difference between 'running the football club as a business' - which is what we've been suffering for the past ten years or so - and 'running the football club in a business-like manner' - which is what a lot of Hibs fans have mistakenly assuned STF and RP have been doing.

'Running the football club in a business-like manner' to my mind means applying the financial and other resources of the club to achieve the main purpose of a football club - the fielding of as good a team as possible within the limits of those resources. Do this within an effective publicity and public relations framework, and you'll attract people to come to the stadium to watch the team. This will increase the club's turnover, allow the coaches a better budget for players' wages, and thereby improve the team. Which will place more bums on seats in the stadium, increase the club's turneover, give the coaches a better budget, and so on ...

STF and RP seem to have either missed the point about fielding as good a team as possible being the purpose of a football club, or they haven't the faintest clue how to go about it. I can safely say this because they've been failing miserably in this endeavour for the last seven years at least.

Their primary concern seems to have been balancing the books regardless of the deterioration in the team and the increasing alienation of the support.

But how dare the supporters allow themselves to feel alienated? We are the twice-blessed recipients of STF's charitable largesse, dispensed through his avatar Igor the Hirsute. Or so some would have us believe.

So no, criticism of STF is certainly NOT 'bang out of order'.

[The Leith Dutch]

We are skint whilst still paying Butcher and Malpas. What we have to do is insist he stays in Edinburgh, report for duty every day before getting sent home. Give him a real hard time so he quits (Malpas too).

We wanted rid of him and we had him under contract.
We either fulfil the contract or compensate him for it's termination.

As he was employed as manager it's pretty much impossible to get him in to the club in any other role.
If we tried to make him leave he'd almost certainly take legal action - and win - for constructive dismissal.

For the record - I too want him gone.....the man is a classless welt who has failed to man up for his colossal failings.
Sadly, we need to do it with the minimum of cost for HFC

[Phil D. Rolls]

[QUOTE=Doddie;4102865]


AND SAINT TOM AND THE BLESSED IGOR MUSTN'T BE BLAMED OR EVEN QUESTIONED - IT'S BE ALL THE FAULT OF THE NASTY FANS WANTING TO SEE A TEAM THAT CAN WIN THINGS. LIKE THE ODD GAME NOW AND AGAIN.
BAD DOGS! NO BISCUITS! :slipper:


Made me laugh.

But, with the benefit of hindsight, was there any alternative to Tom Farmer?

[--------]

[QUOTE=Doddie;4102865]


AND SAINT TOM AND THE BLESSED IGOR MUSTN'T BE BLAMED OR EVEN QUESTIONED - IT'S BE ALL THE FAULT OF THE NASTY FANS WANTING TO SEE A TEAM THAT CAN WIN THINGS. LIKE THE ODD GAME NOW AND AGAIN.
BAD DOGS! NO BISCUITS! :slipper:


Made me laugh.

But, with the benefit of hindsight, was there any alternative to Tom Farmer?


Not at the time, I agree.

But 25 years is a heck of a long time to be looking for someone to come in and take the club on.

Almost makes me wonder if he wasn't really looking.

[TornadoHibby]

We wanted rid of him and we had him under contract.
We either fulfil the contract or compensate him for it's termination.

As he was employed as manager it's pretty much impossible to get him in to the club in any other role.
If we tried to make him leave he'd almost certainly take legal action - and win - for constructive dismissal.

For the record - I too want him gone.....the man is a classless welt who has failed to man up for his colossal failings.
Sadly, we need to do it with the minimum of cost for HFC

You would have thought that getting us relegated would have been in his contract as a sackable "offence" perhaps? :dunno:

[overdrive]

Not disagreeing with that. I am asking where the money is coming from if STF loans the amount for 10k and then gets paid that money back when we reach it. That is all the money gone away again as far as I can see.

The supporters. Using a made up number of £2.5m as the average net income generated from 10k season ticket sales...

1. Hibs receive £2.5m as a 'loan' from STF
2. Hibs sell STs and when they reach sales of 10k they have received £2.5m from supporters in the forms of sales. Total money in the bank £5m.
3. This triggers the repayment to STF of £2.5m. Total money in the bank £2.5m (less any of it that has been spent)

This obviously ignores any interest etc. that may be payable on the 'loan' or indeed what happens if/when we don't sell 10k STs.

[Phil D. Rolls]

[QUOTE=Jeremy Kyle;4102869]


Not at the time, I agree.

But 25 years is a heck of a long time to be looking for someone to come in and take the club on.

Almost makes me wonder if he wasn't really looking.

Break his tenure down into five year periods, and it paints a different picture.

90 - 95 : League Cup win, League Cup runners up.
95 - 00 : Period of stagnation under Miller, followed by disaster when replacing him.
00 - 05 : McLeishes Team, SC runners up, 6 - 2
05 - 10 : Mowbrays Team, Training Ground (spit); League Cup Winners.
10 - 14 : Spiral of Stagnation and Decline under successive dud managers, horsed in two SC finals, relegation, stadium finished.

Ok, I've been selective, and others could argue that we should really have done better (ignoring the fact that it is one of the more successful 25 year stretches in our history). However, I'd argue that for 20 of those years things were going OK, with attendances rising, and its only the last five that have been disaster.

Its clearly time to move on, but that should not be in rankerous circumstances.

[Lucius Apuleius]

The supporters. Using a made up number of £2.5m as the average net income generated from 10k season ticket sales...

1. Hibs receive £2.5m as a 'loan' from STF
2. Hibs sell STs and when they reach sales of 10k they have received £2.5m from supporters in the forms of sales. Total money in the bank £5m.
3. This triggers the repayment to STF of £2.5m. Total money in the bank £2.5m (less any of it that has been spent)

This obviously ignores any interest etc. that may be payable on the 'loan' or indeed what happens if/when we don't sell 10k STs.

And the point of that would be what?

[BVB Hibs]

And the point of that would be what?

It's not that bad an idea in fairness. It means we have the ST money in the account early in order to sign players and we know exactly the budget constraints we'll be placed under. I'd assume it'd be 10000 ST sales, and anything less TF would cover, and anything more would go straight to the club. More people would, hopefully, buy ST's as it shows the club has ambition in the money they're willing to spend that season and that the owner is willing to invest in the company. STF pays potentially nothing, Hibs have financial certainty for the transfer budget, we can bring more players in early and more STs should be sold. It's a win on all fronts.

[Beefster]

You would have thought that getting us relegated would have been in his contract as a sackable "offence" perhaps? :dunno:

Have you any examples of when that's happened before?

[BSEJVT]

I think Hibs fans have consistently shown their gratitude towards the man, no doubt he did save the club and most will be externally grateful for that but times move on, you can't just stand still and watch the club sink and say nothing just incase you hurt the feelings of a man who did once save the club.

You cannot expect fans to be held over a barrel for the rest of their lives - also who cares if fans were around in 1990, what about the 20 year old fans who have been going religiously for the last 12/13/14/15 years, does their opinion not mean as much simply because they weren't born when Farmer saved Hibs? They quite possibly don't feel suffocated with affection as they weren't around to witness what he did so they can make a judgement on what he has done since...they might have the most unbiased view of all

Ah and there you have it the ingratitude of todays youth to their forbearers in all its glory.

Maybe another slant on your viewpoint would be that it states quite openly the I want everything and I want it now attitude of much of todays youth, without any consideration of what it took to get them what they wanted.

Without those from the 90's who you don't care about there would be no Hibs, the club itself wouldn't have been saved anymore than a derelict building would be. It was saved for what it represented to the community.

What your view does lack is any historical context or appreciation of the clubs place in society and in the Leith, Edinburgh & wider community's and is incredibly disrespectful.

No-one is arguing that since the League Cup win in 2007 things have been anything other than a disaster.

Like many others I was brought up with the Tornadoes team and truth be told, anything since then other than a few short lived hurrahs has been pretty poor by comparison.

Age tells you that in actual fact the Tornadoes team and the short lived hurrahs are actually not at all what most of this clubs history has been like and the crap that we have watched since 07 is much more the like normal fare we and our predecessors have had to put with.

That crap though wouldn't have been there to watch but for STF, as there was no other horse in the race.

Without him some children wearing the green today might be wearing maroon.

I have heard all the we wouldn't have let the club die stuff, but Third Lanark supporters will have said that too. Talk is cheap action isn't.

STF isn't absolved from criticism, but IMO he has done far more than he said he would (which wasn't much) with the club and how he can be criticised for not disposing of it when it was someone else's to buy rather than his to give away beggars belief.

The one certainty is that whoever owns Hibs our fortunes will wax and wane pretty much as they always have in the shadow of the old firm, whose financial strength pretty much guarantees that.

Can and should we have done better than we have?

We should undoubtedly have done much better, but that improvement would translate into better results and league placing, not trophy laden glory

IMO anyone who expects a massive transformation from our pre 2007 form to fighting it out for League Cup and European glory from any change in ownership is severely deluding themselves.

Whenever STF relinquishes control over Hibs, we would do well to remember what he has done for us and to look at most of our competitors recent history and thank god we had him and not many of their erstwhile owners.

[overdrive]

And the point of that would be what?

It's not my idea. I was merely setting out the arithmetic and pointing out that in theory the Club wouldn't be out of pocket as you appeared to be suggesting. Presumably the idea is that it would provide some sort of certainty as to funds available for signings which would allow us to get players in earlier.

Not a bad idea in theory but as I mentioned previously, what would be the repercussions of us not meeting the 10k? Would we have to pay back the full amount loaned? Would we have to pay back the difference? Both would leave us in adverse position financially if we had already spent the budget which assumed 10k of sales.

[blackpoolhibs]

And the point of that would be what?

1 A show of intent by the owner.
2 The supporters think we have someone who cares.
3 Supporters buy season tickets on that news.
4 The team get their targets earlier.
5 The team gel quicker.
6 The team are ready for the START of the season.
7 Crowds would be bigger.
8 Everyone would be behind the club.
9 Positivity improves
10 Atmosphere.
11 Countless more.

The reason we have so few season ticket sales is because of folk feeling disillusioned.

STF putting his hands in his pockets before disaster happens, would probably have saved him putting his hands in his pockets after it does.

Now of course we might not reach the 10 thousand figure and there would be a shortfall, but not doing so is costing hundreds of thousands if not millions, and you never know, if he had done this last season, we could have been in a cup final or qualified for Europe?

Both result in higher crowds, not less as is the case now?

[Tyler Durden]

Ah and there you have it the ingratitude of todays youth to their forbearers in all its glory.

Maybe another slant on your viewpoint would be that it states quite openly the I want everything and I want it now attitude of much of todays youth, without any consideration of what it took to get them what they wanted.

Without those from the 90's who you don't care about there would be no Hibs, the club itself wouldn't have been saved anymore than a derelict building would be. It was saved for what it represented to the community.

What your view does lack is any historical context or appreciation of the clubs place in society and in the Leith, Edinburgh & wider community's and is incredibly disrespectful.

No-one is arguing that since the League Cup win in 2007 things have been anything other than a disaster.

Like many others I was brought up with the Tornadoes team and truth be told, anything since then other than a few short lived hurrahs has been pretty poor by comparison.

Age tells you that in actual fact the Tornadoes team and the short lived hurrahs are actually not at all what most of this clubs history has been like and the crap that we have watched since 07 is much more the like normal fare we and our predecessors have had to put with.

That crap though wouldn't have been there to watch but for STF, as there was no other horse in the race.

Without him some children wearing the green today might be wearing maroon.

I have heard all the we wouldn't have let the club die stuff, but Third Lanark supporters will have said that too. Talk is cheap action isn't.

STF isn't absolved from criticism, but IMO he has done far more than he said he would (which wasn't much) with the club and how he can be criticised for not disposing of it when it was someone else's to buy rather than his to give away beggars belief.

The one certainty is that whoever owns Hibs our fortunes will wax and wane pretty much as they always have in the shadow of the old firm, whose financial strength pretty much guarantees that.

Can and should we have done better than we have?

We should undoubtedly have done much better, but that improvement would translate into better results and league placing, not trophy laden glory

IMO anyone who expects a massive transformation from our pre 2007 form to fighting it out for League Cup and European glory from any change in ownership is severely deluding themselves.

Whenever STF relinquishes control over Hibs, we would do well to remember what he has done for us and to look at most of our competitors recent history and thank god we had him and not many of their erstwhile owners.

I think that's quite an unfair response to the post you quoted. The poster in no way disrespected fans from 1990 who helped save Hibs. They simply said that younger fans views shouldn't be discounted because they weren't around.

Generalisations about the youth of today....not particularly relevant IMO

[Lucius Apuleius]

It's not that bad an idea in fairness. It means we have the ST money in the account early in order to sign players and we know exactly the budget constraints we'll be placed under. I'd assume it'd be 10000 ST sales, and anything less TF would cover, and anything more would go straight to the club. More people would, hopefully, buy ST's as it shows the club has ambition in the money they're willing to spend that season and that the owner is willing to invest in the company. STF pays potentially nothing, Hibs have financial certainty for the transfer budget, we can bring more players in early and more STs should be sold. It's a win on all fronts.

Unless, potentially, of course your name is Tom Farmer.

[Feed McGraw]

Ah and there you have it the ingratitude of todays youth to their forbearers in all its glory.

Maybe another slant on your viewpoint would be that it states quite openly the I want everything and I want it now attitude of much of todays youth, without any consideration of what it took to get them what they wanted.

Without those from the 90's who you don't care about there would be no Hibs, the club itself wouldn't have been saved anymore than a derelict building would be. It was saved for what it represented to the community.

What your view does lack is any historical context or appreciation of the clubs place in society and in the Leith, Edinburgh & wider community's and is incredibly disrespectful.

No-one is arguing that since the League Cup win in 2007 things have been anything other than a disaster.

Like many others I was brought up with the Tornadoes team and truth be told, anything since then other than a few short lived hurrahs has been pretty poor by comparison.

Age tells you that in actual fact the Tornadoes team and the short lived hurrahs are actually not at all what most of this clubs history has been like and the crap that we have watched since 07 is much more the like normal fare we and our predecessors have had to put with.

That crap though wouldn't have been there to watch but for STF, as there was no other horse in the race.

Without him some children wearing the green today might be wearing maroon.

I have heard all the we wouldn't have let the club die stuff, but Third Lanark supporters will have said that too. Talk is cheap action isn't.

STF isn't absolved from criticism, but IMO he has done far more than he said he would (which wasn't much) with the club and how he can be criticised for not disposing of it when it was someone else's to buy rather than his to give away beggars belief.

The one certainty is that whoever owns Hibs our fortunes will wax and wane pretty much as they always have in the shadow of the old firm, whose financial strength pretty much guarantees that.

Can and should we have done better than we have?

We should undoubtedly have done much better, but that improvement would translate into better results and league placing, not trophy laden glory

IMO anyone who expects a massive transformation from our pre 2007 form to fighting it out for League Cup and European glory from any change in ownership is severely deluding themselves.

Whenever STF relinquishes control over Hibs, we would do well to remember what he has done for us and to look at most of our competitors recent history and thank god we had him and not many of their erstwhile owners. You make some good points, but I will not accept that what we have been watching since 2007 is " normal fare" for Hibs supporters of ANY generation. I am 58 and have never seen such consistently rubbish football season after season, even when we`ve been bad before in my lifetime it has never been IMHO as dismal and soul destroying as these last few seasons.

Oh, and I have renewed my ST. :greengrin

[Lucius Apuleius]

1 A show of intent by the owner.
2 The supporters think we have someone who cares.
3 Supporters buy season tickets on that news.
4 The team get their targets earlier.
5 The team gel quicker.
6 The team are ready for the START of the season.
7 Crowds would be bigger.
8 Everyone would be behind the club.
9 Positivity improves
10 Atmosphere.
11 Countless more.

The reason we have so few season ticket sales is because of folk feeling disillusioned.

STF putting his hands in his pockets before disaster happens, would probably have saved him putting his hands in his pockets after it does.

Now of course we might not reach the 10 thousand figure and there would be a shortfall, but not doing so is costing hundreds of thousands if not millions, and you never know, if he had done this last season, we could have been in a cup final or qualified for Europe?

Both result in higher crowds, not less as is the case now?


I don't know mate. History will tell us he did dip into his pocket quite frequently. Frequently enough for us? Of course not. I can however understand his point of view as well. No matter how much money I had throwing a few million away would not be palatable. bear in mind we keep hearing about this supposed take over. Would he put more money in knowing he is about to sell the club? No of course not. I am not going to harp on about Farmer, we both thank him for what he did and we both think his time is at an end. I just don't see how someone would expect him to throw a couple of million in at this point. Personally I would have liked to have seen greater marketing and whatever else was necessary over the last 25 years to generate income so as we did not have to rely on fans. However the bottom line is most football clubs main source of income is from their supporters. We still have way way more STs that everybody else in the division bar the obvious two. I do still think we have quality ( quality based upon the league we are in) before we start in earnest. As I have said before the same argument is regurgitated in various guises on every thread. I have drawn a line in the sand and moving forward. Yourself and others are not ready for that. That is fine and you are entitled to that. I bought a ST when I could only make two or three games a season. I bought my ST when I retired and missed half the games because of changed dates and this f'n disease. I am not ready to stop buying it yet when there is a chance I can get to a few games.

[TornadoHibby]

1 A show of intent by the owner.
2 The supporters think we have someone who cares.
3 Supporters buy season tickets on that news.
4 The team get their targets earlier.
5 The team gel quicker.
6 The team are ready for the START of the season.
7 Crowds would be bigger.
8 Everyone would be behind the club.
9 Positivity improves
10 Atmosphere.
11 Countless more.

The reason we have so few season ticket sales is because of folk feeling disillusioned.

STF putting his hands in his pockets before disaster happens, would probably have saved him putting his hands in his pockets after it does.

Now of course we might not reach the 10 thousand figure and there would be a shortfall, but not doing so is costing hundreds of thousands if not millions, and you never know, if he had done this last season, we could have been in a cup final or qualified for Europe?

Both result in higher crowds, not less as is the case now?

Difficult to argue with much of this IMO! :agree:

[BVB Hibs]

Unless, potentially, of course your name is Tom Farmer.

Nothing is a given if the owner was to do this, hence all the potentially. It would undoubtedly be a positive development, as more money to the club early in the season would be a good thing. It would be speculation on the part of STF, because he might not get his money back, but it would show fans he's willing to take some personal financial risk for the sake of Hibs. Blackpoolhibs got it in one, not all of those benefits are a certainty, but would be very likely in the case of such a move. Positivity breeds positivity and all that.

[Russ]

Ah and there you have it the ingratitude of todays youth to their forbearers in all its glory.

Maybe another slant on your viewpoint would be that it states quite openly the I want everything and I want it now attitude of much of todays youth, without any consideration of what it took to get them what they wanted.

Without those from the 90's who you don't care about there would be no Hibs, the club itself wouldn't have been saved anymore than a derelict building would be. It was saved for what it represented to the community.

What your view does lack is any historical context or appreciation of the clubs place in society and in the Leith, Edinburgh & wider community's and is incredibly disrespectful.

No-one is arguing that since the League Cup win in 2007 things have been anything other than a disaster.

Like many others I was brought up with the Tornadoes team and truth be told, anything since then other than a few short lived hurrahs has been pretty poor by comparison.

Age tells you that in actual fact the Tornadoes team and the short lived hurrahs are actually not at all what most of this clubs history has been like and the crap that we have watched since 07 is much more the like normal fare we and our predecessors have had to put with.

That crap though wouldn't have been there to watch but for STF, as there was no other horse in the race.

Without him some children wearing the green today might be wearing maroon.

I have heard all the we wouldn't have let the club die stuff, but Third Lanark supporters will have said that too. Talk is cheap action isn't.

STF isn't absolved from criticism, but IMO he has done far more than he said he would (which wasn't much) with the club and how he can be criticised for not disposing of it when it was someone else's to buy rather than his to give away beggars belief.

The one certainty is that whoever owns Hibs our fortunes will wax and wane pretty much as they always have in the shadow of the old firm, whose financial strength pretty much guarantees that.

Can and should we have done better than we have?

We should undoubtedly have done much better, but that improvement would translate into better results and league placing, not trophy laden glory

IMO anyone who expects a massive transformation from our pre 2007 form to fighting it out for League Cup and European glory from any change in ownership is severely deluding themselves.

Whenever STF relinquishes control over Hibs, we would do well to remember what he has done for us and to look at most of our competitors recent history and thank god we had him and not many of their erstwhile owners.
:not worthMagnificent post. I seem to remember fans back then saying they would be happy to see us just survive and would follow our team no matter where they played or what league we were in, those fans seem to have very short memories indeed.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think that's quite an unfair response to the post you quoted. The poster in no way disrespected fans from 1990 who helped save Hibs. They simply said that younger fans views shouldn't be discounted because they weren't around.

Generalisations about the youth of today....not particularly relevant IMO

I think both posts were good. It's maybe time for some of us older folk to acknowledge that our fear of going bust has blinded us to alternatives. Somebody that's only lived 20 years is as oblivious to our concerns, as we are to the clubs difficulties in the 1880s.

I only hope that Tom Farmer is treated with the respect he deserves for what he did at a time when a lot of us thought it was the end.

[WestStandMoaner]

I think Hibs fans have consistently shown their gratitude towards the man, no doubt he did save the club and most will be externally grateful for that but times move on, you can't just stand still and watch the club sink and say nothing just incase you hurt the feelings of a man who did once save the club.

You cannot expect fans to be held over a barrel for the rest of their lives - also who cares if fans were around in 1990, what about the 20 year old fans who have been going religiously for the last 12/13/14/15 years, does their opinion not mean as much simply because they weren't born when Farmer saved Hibs? They quite possibly don't feel suffocated with affection as they weren't around to witness what he did so they can make a judgement on what he has done since...they might have the most unbiased view of all

Well said, I was there in 1990 and will always be grateful to STF but having an owner that shows no interest in football is killing the very club he saved.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Well said, I was there in 1990 and will always be grateful to STF but having an owner that shows no interest in football is killing the very club he saved.

It's interesting to try and imagine where we'd be now, if we'd had to start again from nothing. I think I prefer the way it went until recently, but there's every chance we'd be in exactly the same position as we are now.

[Russ]

:agree: Lack of leadership from the very top has us where we are today. We are constantly told STF has no real interest in running the club, is it any wonder apathy has set in for some, when the people in control have no real desire to be there.

And when anyone dares to ask just why STF still wants to own the club, we are constantly told better the devil you know, or be careful what you wish for?

Well i just wish we had someone who owned us that wanted to own the club, and that person took an active part in running and leading us.

I also never wished for Hibs to be playing in the Championship. Perhaps the dire shape we are in now has flushed out some new investors, and also made STF aware that he's had enough and there are folk out there who want to run the club a damn site better than he has?

You were obviously around when STF saved the club and like the rest of us must have been elated that he came along when he did and saved us, because as you know there was only one alternative if he didn't. To now constantly berate the guy at every turn to invest more money etc etc etc, while you yourself downed tools and stopped going when the team needed you and your like the most reeks of hypocrisy.

[WestStandMoaner]

You were obviously around when STF saved the club and like the rest of us must have been elated that he came along when he did and saved us, because as you know there was only one alternative if he didn't. To now constantly berate the guy at every turn to invest more money etc etc etc, while you yourself downed tools and stopped going when the team needed you and your like the most reeks of hypocrisy.

This is the other problem, Farmer and Petrie have split the support and to unite the support they must go, we can argue all day about who replaces them but unless Farmer is going to invest then we need to find a new investor, hence new owner.

[blackpoolhibs]

You were obviously around when STF saved the club and like the rest of us must have been elated that he came along when he did and saved us, because as you know there was only one alternative if he didn't. To now constantly berate the guy at every turn to invest more money etc etc etc, while you yourself downed tools and stopped going when the team needed you and your like the most reeks of hypocrisy.

I have stopped going because the club do not excite me anymore, and the football has been absolute pish. So in my opinion its not worth the time and effort to go.

STF did save us, but for what, this?

Nobody and i mean nobody has not thanked him for doing what he did, but that time has gone and its time he went too.

[Nutmegged]

Ah and there you have it the ingratitude of todays youth to their forbearers in all its glory.

Maybe another slant on your viewpoint would be that it states quite openly the I want everything and I want it now attitude of much of todays youth, without any consideration of what it took to get them what they wanted.

Without those from the 90's who you don't care about there would be no Hibs, the club itself wouldn't have been saved anymore than a derelict building would be. It was saved for what it represented to the community.

What your view does lack is any historical context or appreciation of the clubs place in society and in the Leith, Edinburgh & wider community's and is incredibly disrespectful.

No-one is arguing that since the League Cup win in 2007 things have been anything other than a disaster.

Like many others I was brought up with the Tornadoes team and truth be told, anything since then other than a few short lived hurrahs has been pretty poor by comparison.

Age tells you that in actual fact the Tornadoes team and the short lived hurrahs are actually not at all what most of this clubs history has been like and the crap that we have watched since 07 is much more the like normal fare we and our predecessors have had to put with.

That crap though wouldn't have been there to watch but for STF, as there was no other horse in the race.

Without him some children wearing the green today might be wearing maroon.

I have heard all the we wouldn't have let the club die stuff, but Third Lanark supporters will have said that too. Talk is cheap action isn't.

STF isn't absolved from criticism, but IMO he has done far more than he said he would (which wasn't much) with the club and how he can be criticised for not disposing of it when it was someone else's to buy rather than his to give away beggars belief.

The one certainty is that whoever owns Hibs our fortunes will wax and wane pretty much as they always have in the shadow of the old firm, whose financial strength pretty much guarantees that.

Can and should we have done better than we have?

We should undoubtedly have done much better, but that improvement would translate into better results and league placing, not trophy laden glory

IMO anyone who expects a massive transformation from our pre 2007 form to fighting it out for League Cup and European glory from any change in ownership is severely deluding themselves.

Whenever STF relinquishes control over Hibs, we would do well to remember what he has done for us and to look at most of our competitors recent history and thank god we had him and not many of their erstwhile owners.

Youth? I wish, I'm 32 but was 8 in 1990, they're some of my earliest memories from following Hibs.

You have very selective reading, I must say, I honestly have no idea why you would do that unless you just want to promote your own agenda, not once have I ever had the "I want everything and want it yesterday" attitude and any Hibernian supporter who actually accuses another fan of having that mantra then they really need to catch a reality check, one thing Hibs fans can never be accused of is being spoiled with success.

who said I don't care about "those from the 90s"...thats a bizarre take on what I said, I'm externally grateful to those fans who went before me, a lot of my family included and indeed what Sir Tom Farmer did for us, however I don't feel fans post 1990 should be talked down to in the manner in which you do, you seem to have sone kind of superiority complex simply because you were born in an earlier decade, that is whats wrong with this attitude, I don't think I've ever seen or heard a Hibs fan of ANY age be anything other than grateful for what Farmer did, lets nail that one OK.


Like I said, Farmer the savior allowed all the 20 year old Hibs fans to support the club week in week out for the last 15+ years, that doesn't mean those same fans shouldn't hold him accountable - he is the head honcho, leaders are supposed to lead, in the grand scheme of things what would be the point of saving Hibs just to let it toil and flounder years later? No-one but no-one wants that, thats not a stinking attitude, its a realistic view.

Times change, people change, Tom Farmer was a hero and will always be a hero for what he did in 1990 that shouldn't however mean that every Hibs fan should have their arm twisted around their backs for the rest of their lives, we shouldn't feel guilty about being critical about the club we love, if we don't critique it in an open and honest manner among our own fans in our clubs forum then what and where is an acceptable platform?

Fans, particularly those who go week in week out to watch the team have every right to be critical of the way things have been done, regardless of age.

Farmer saved us 24 years ago, I'm almost certain even he at the time wouldn't have thought it'd be used as a noose around the neck of any fan who dared question him in the years ahead.

[rcarter1]

It's interesting to try and imagine where we'd be now, if we'd had to start again from nothing. I think I prefer the way it went until recently, but there's every chance we'd be in exactly the same position as we are now.

Im all for fully respecting STF, but I imagine if we had gone to the wall back then, we would quite possibly be in better shape than we are by now. Or we might not exist at all. STF has been a guardian, not a hands on passionate owner. It appears that no one with any credibility has come forward in the last 25 years.

[BSEJVT]

Youth? I wish, I'm 32 but was 8 in 1990, they're some of my earliest memories from following Hibs.

You have very selective reading, I must say, I honestly have no idea why you would do that unless you just want to promote your own agenda, not once have I ever had the "I want everything and want it yesterday" attitude and any Hibernian supporter who actually accuses another fan of having that mantra then they really need to catch a reality check, one thing Hibs fans can never be accused of is being spoiled with success.

who said I don't care about "those from the 90s"...thats a bizarre take on what I said, I'm externally grateful to those fans who went before me, a lot of my family included and indeed what Sir Tom Farmer did for us, however I don't feel fans post 1990 should be talked down to in the manner in which you do, you seem to have sone kind of superiority complex simply because you were born in an earlier decade, that is whats wrong with this attitude, I don't think I've ever seen or heard a Hibs fan of ANY age be anything other than grateful for what Farmer did, lets nail that one OK.


Like I said, Farmer the savior allowed all the 20 year old Hibs fans to support the club week in week out for the last 15+ years, that doesn't mean those same fans shouldn't hold him accountable - he is the head honcho, leaders are supposed to lead, in the grand scheme of things what would be the point of saving Hibs just to let it toil and flounder years later? No-one but no-one wants that, thats not a stinking attitude, its a realistic view.

Times change, people change, Tom Farmer was a hero and will always be a hero for what he did in 1990 that shouldn't however mean that every Hibs fan should have their arm twisted around their backs for the rest of their lives, we shouldn't feel guilty about being critical about the club we love, if we don't critique it in an open and honest manner among our own fans in our clubs forum then what and where is an acceptable platform?

Fans, particularly those who go week in week out to watch the team have every right to be critical of the way things have been done, regardless of age.

Farmer saved us 24 years ago, I'm almost certain even he at the time wouldn't have thought it'd be used as a noose around the neck of any fan who dared question him in the years ahead.

Guilty as charged on some of your post.

The whole debate is polarising opinion and people read stuff into things that isnt there, because it pushes their particular button.

My apologies.

Let me be clear that no one Hibs supporter has more right to an opinion or comment than another.

I do think though that historical context puts our recent under achievement in some perspective.

I will reiterate though that it annoys me how much flak STF takes, it's entirely his decision how much he invests into Hibs.

If people aren't happy it's up to them to buy him out. I haven't seen any semblance of a realistic offer to do so, plenty naysayers putting the boot in, but other than paper talk, nada.

It's easy to criticise and of course he is open to criticism, but some of its is fantasy island stuff, why should he put a penny more in, what's to stop those seeking him to do so putting in some if their own?

Would they? Should they? What effect would it have? They are probably more interested in Hibs than he is!

No-one would disagree that what's gone on post 2007 is remotely acceptable but it's not deliberate and we are certainly not the only club in the world to have spectacularly under achieved in that period or indeed any other.

STF has proved time and again in his business dealings that he is a very competent businessman.

I doubt anyone disbelieves he wants anything other than the best for Hibs within the confines of how much he is prepared to support them.

Unfortunately there are far more intangibles in sport than business and far greater expectations.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Positivity breeds positivity and all that.

Not on here it doesn't.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I remember Ron Brown MP saying Hibs should be a fans cooperative.

[TornadoHibby]

Guilty as charged on some of your post.

The whole debate is polarising opinion and people read stuff into things that isnt there, because it pushes their particular button.

My apologies.

Let me be clear that no one Hibs supporter has more right to an opinion or comment than another.

I do think though that historical context puts our recent under achievement in some perspective.

I will reiterate though that it annoys me how much flak STF takes, it's entirely his decision how much he invests into Hibs.

If people aren't happy it's up to them to buy him out. I haven't seen any semblance of a realistic offer to do so, plenty naysayers putting the boot in, but other than paper talk, nada.

It's easy to criticise and of course he is open to criticism, but some of its is fantasy island stuff, why should he put a penny more in, what's to stop those seeking him to do so putting in some if their own?

Would they? Should they? What effect would it have? They are probably more interested in Hibs than he is!

No-one would disagree that what's gone on post 2007 is remotely acceptable but it's not deliberate and we are certainly not the only club in the world to have spectacularly under achieved in that period or indeed any other.

STF has proved time and again in his business dealings that he is a very competent businessman.

I doubt anyone disbelieves he wants anything other than the best for Hibs within the confines of how much he is prepared to support them.

Unfortunately there are far more intangibles in sport than business and far greater expectations.

I think you miss the most obvious way that supporters can react to not liking what is (not) being done to improve onfield performances and results without asking the fans to fund the after effect of yet another poor selection of a manager decision by RP don't you? :dunno:

That is to choose not to renew or buy a ST and attend games if and when they feel like it on a PATG basis! :agree:

I personally believe that is what many are doing and a bit more considered thought into the economics of keeping the ST prices at a higher rate than last years rate when we were in the SPFL by the Club would have produced a better overall result in terms of cash raised from supporters pre season! :agree:

Better to get bums on seats as soon as possible than play around with payment plans which don't really offer a significant financial saving to those using them per se IMO. :agree:

[tamig]

I remember Ron Brown MP saying Hibs should be a fans cooperative.

Ron wanted everything to be a co-operative did he not?

[Hibs90]

Bet if you were to ask any Hibs fan under the age of 14 or so most wouldn't be able to tell you who Hibs owner is. Time for a change, however I don't think 'Hibernian Forever' is the way.

[sahib]

I think you miss the most obvious way that supporters can react to not liking what is (not) being done to improve onfield performances and results without asking the fans to fund the after effect of yet another poor selection of a manager decision by RP don't you? :dunno:

That is to choose not to renew or buy a ST and attend games if and when they feel like it on a PATG basis! :agree:

I personally believe that is what many are doing and a bit more considered thought into the economics of keeping the ST prices at a higher rate than last years rate when we were in the SPFL by the Club would have produced a better overall result in terms of cash raised from supporters pre season! :agree:

Better to get bums on seats as soon as possible than play around with payment plans which don't really offer a significant financial saving to those using them per se IMO. :agree:

If we must have cash free turnstiles why can't we have smart cards which you could charge up for four games say or some multiple. This would give some cash up front.
Iirc, back in the day up to circa 1970, was there not just a handful of season ticket holders (centre stand mainly). Teams used to survive fine apart from Thirds obviously

[greenginger]

I remember Ron Brown MP saying Hibs should be a fans cooperative.


We could have had the Crystal Meths, Methodist as Chairman. :greengrin

[boab1875]

Youth? I wish, I'm 32 but was 8 in 1990, they're some of my earliest memories from following Hibs.

You have very selective reading, I must say, I honestly have no idea why you would do that unless you just want to promote your own agenda, not once have I ever had the "I want everything and want it yesterday" attitude and any Hibernian supporter who actually accuses another fan of having that mantra then they really need to catch a reality check, one thing Hibs fans can never be accused of is being spoiled with success.

who said I don't care about "those from the 90s"...thats a bizarre take on what I said, I'm externally grateful to those fans who went before me, a lot of my family included and indeed what Sir Tom Farmer did for us, however I don't feel fans post 1990 should be talked down to in the manner in which you do, you seem to have sone kind of superiority complex simply because you were born in an earlier decade, that is whats wrong with this attitude, I don't think I've ever seen or heard a Hibs fan of ANY age be anything other than grateful for what Farmer did, lets nail that one OK.


Like I said, Farmer the savior allowed all the 20 year old Hibs fans to support the club week in week out for the last 15+ years, that doesn't mean those same fans shouldn't hold him accountable - he is the head honcho, leaders are supposed to lead, in the grand scheme of things what would be the point of saving Hibs just to let it toil and flounder years later? No-one but no-one wants that, thats not a stinking attitude, its a realistic view.

Times change, people change, Tom Farmer was a hero and will always be a hero for what he did in 1990 that shouldn't however mean that every Hibs fan should have their arm twisted around their backs for the rest of their lives, we shouldn't feel guilty about being critical about the club we love, if we don't critique it in an open and honest manner among our own fans in our clubs forum then what and where is an acceptable platform?

Fans, particularly those who go week in week out to watch the team have every right to be critical of the way things have been done, regardless of age.

Farmer saved us 24 years ago, I'm almost certain even he at the time wouldn't have thought it'd be used as a noose around the neck of any fan who dared question him in the years ahead.

agree with you 100% there. Those at the top are the reason we are in the position we are in and are certainly not immune from criticism despite doing brilliant things before. criticism is required in times like these, even though we love the club.

[Forza Fred]

If we must have cash free turnstiles why can't we have smart cards which you could charge up for four games say or some multiple. This would give some cash up front.
Iirc, back in the day up to circa 1970, was there not just a handful of season ticket holders (centre stand mainly). Teams used to survive fine apart from Thirds obviously

Yep, season tickets were then only for a few in the centre stand.....at least up until1974 when I departed

Never had one myself, but my old man did

Still remember his seat number........J 35

It was a paper pull out thinggy

[Criswell]

[QUOTE=Doddie;4102865]Well, I was, and I agree with them.

I think if the fans had realised that STF's idea of 'saving' Hibs was to preserve the club like some sort of museum exhibit rather than running it as a living breathing football club, we wouldn't have been nearly as enthusiastic as we were. I certainly wouldn't have been.


Great Post! You have just articulated superbly what myself, and I suspect, many other supporters are thinking.

[Russ]

agree with you 100% there. Those at the top are the reason we are in the position we are in and are certainly not immune from criticism despite doing brilliant things before. criticism is required in times like these, even though we love the club.

I would say it was the clowns who protested after the cup defeat at ER to our neighbours who are to blame. If Fenlon hadn't left after that game I'm pretty certain he would have guided the fannies in his team to another inglorious Scottish Cup run and a respectable 7th or 8th in the league.

We then could have got rid of him and been sitting pretty with , oh well it's all ifs and buts but then again so is 99% of the posts on this board.

[Russ]

I have stopped going because the club do not excite me anymore, and the football has been absolute pish. So in my opinion its not worth the time and effort to go.

STF did save us, but for what, this?

Nobody and i mean nobody has not thanked him for doing what he did, but that time has gone and its time he went too.

Poor you having to suffer absolute pish, here's me thinking it was only me who has suffered in my lifetime watching Hibs. Those depressing seasons in the 80's can't have seen much of you either then eh.

[basehibby]

If we must have cash free turnstiles why can't we have smart cards which you could charge up for four games say or some multiple. This would give some cash up front.
Iirc, back in the day up to circa 1970, was there not just a handful of season ticket holders (centre stand mainly). Teams used to survive fine apart from Thirds obviously

:agree: good points - a ST doesn't make sense for me although a card charged up in advance maybe would. In any case, STs have only become commonplace in Scotland with the advent of all seater stadia and the reduced capacities that resulted - this effect has been eroded for many due to the increased capacity at ER allied to the range of sheight KO times we are subjected to by TV. IMO the board should abandon their mantra of the manager's kitty being purely based on ST sales - many fans like to walk up anyway but this season there will be a lot more choosing that option because of the general feeling of disgust at the collapse witnessed last term. The reality is that there is plenty of potential for average gates in excess of 10,000, however, basing the player budget on 5 thousand -odd could end up becoming a self fulfilling prophecy!

[blackpoolhibs]

Poor you having to suffer absolute pish, here's me thinking it was only me who has suffered in my lifetime watching Hibs. Those depressing seasons in the 80's can't have seen much of you either then eh.

Quality reply, another one who's never heard of folk just having enough? I dare say if i still lived near the ground, i'd be there every week, but i just cant be bothered taking the time or indeed the effort it takes me to get there and back now.

Continued amateur dramatics stating how you have suffered, well don't include me in that. I loved watching us even when we were pish, the whole day was exactly that, a day out on the pish with my mates. The football was secondary, it was what i did.

Not anymore., but when its more enjoyable and its worth taking 14 hours out my day, i will return. And i wont need your permission either.

[Fife-Hibee]

Well, I was, and I agree with them.

I think if the fans had realised that STF's idea of 'saving' Hibs was to preserve the club like some sort of museum exhibit rather than running it as a living breathing football club, we wouldn't have been nearly as enthusiastic as we were. I certainly wouldn't have been.

To be fair, the period up to the arrival of Rod Petrie saw the club doing fairly well - at least the focus under chairmen like Dougie Cromb was on the football and not on the bottom line of the account sheet. But since Farmer put Petrie in charge - and allowed him to buy into the club, which effectively made him irremovable - the club has stagnated.

We have wonderful 'infrastructure' - stadium and training ground - but the football on offer has been getting worse and less attractive and less effective and competitive for years. The 'bones' of the club are great, but there hasn't been a lot of living flesh and blood on those bones since Tony Mowbray left.

THAT is certainly the responsibility of Farmer and his moustachioed Igor.

Prudent with the club's finances? I don't think so. Every season since Mowbray we've been movIng good players out and bringing in large numbers of 'replacements', most of whom have been embarrassingly and laughably inadequate. Money has been wasted bringing in new managers every 18 months - money spent paying compensation to the club from which we've signed the guy, money spent enticing him into the job, money spent allowing him to 'bring in his own team' (see above - 'embarrassingly and laughably inadequate'), money spent paying compensation when club and manager finally 'part by mutual consent' - whatever that means. MONEY WASTED.

And the one constant is the annual chorus from Igor - if the long-suffering fans (for fans, read 'paying customers') don't dig deep into their pockets to fork out another £350-400 a head for an ST to watch players as yet un-named and unsigned, Igor won't be able to put into action the latest instalment of his masterplan to save the Hibees. The fans have done this again and again, and been rewarded with mediocrity at best, at worst, utter rubbish.

BUT SAINT TOM AND THE BLESSED IGOR MUSTN'T BE BLAMED OR EVEN QUESTIONED - IT'S ALL BEEN THE FAULT OF THE NASTY FANS WANTING TO SEE A TEAM THAT CAN WIN THINGS.

(LIKE THE ODD GAME NOW AND AGAIN?)
BAD DOGS! NO BISCUITS! :slipper:

There's a world of difference between 'running the football club as a business' - which is what we've been suffering for the past ten years or so - and 'running the football club in a business-like manner' - which is what a lot of Hibs fans have mistakenly assuned STF and RP have been doing.

'Running the football club in a business-like manner' to my mind means applying the financial and other resources of the club to achieve the main purpose of a football club - the fielding of as good a team as possible within the limits of those resources. Do this within an effective publicity and public relations framework, and you'll attract people to come to the stadium to watch the team. This will increase the club's turnover, allow the coaches a better budget for players' wages, and thereby improve the team. Which will place more bums on seats in the stadium, increase the club's turneover, give the coaches a better budget, and so on ...

STF and RP seem to have either missed the point about fielding as good a team as possible being the purpose of a football club, or they haven't the faintest clue how to go about it. I can safely say this because they've been failing miserably in this endeavour for the last seven years at least.

Their primary concern seems to have been balancing the books regardless of the deterioration in the team and the increasing alienation of the support.

But how dare the supporters allow themselves to feel alienated? We are the twice-blessed recipients of STF's charitable largesse, dispensed through his avatar Igor the Hirsute. Or so some would have us believe.

So no, criticism of STF is certainly NOT 'bang out of order'.

Best post ive read in ages. 100% agree

[TornadoHibby]

Have you any examples of when that's happened before?

Performance targets are commonly used in contracts of employment such that a poor performing manager can be removed from post relatively quickly and without significant cost in terms of "compensation for loss of office" if they haven't been performing their duties in a proper and reasonable and competent way! :wink:

It's not just a football manager "issue"! :agree:

[Barman Stanton]

So 2 weeks today this thread was started and we have signed 2 players. And we have still not signed a goalkeeper. We are in far worst shape than the team that couldn't beat Hamilton over 2 games. So much for 3 players in every position. A few injuries and we will struggle to fill the bench with players who have played first team games. Get the finger out Hibs!

[Onion]

Well said, I was there in 1990 and will always be grateful to STF but having an owner that shows no interest in football is killing the very club he saved.

The irony is that over these 24 years few Hibs fans have called for the owner to pump money into the club. We've all obediently bought into the "self-sufficient" argument while our competitors have enjoyed trophies and ruined their businesses. The problem was he left a visionless, incompetent in charge who has squandered and wasted.

[southern hibby]

[QUOTE=Russ;4103184]I would say it was the clowns who protested after the cup defeat at ER to our neighbours who are to blame. If Fenlon hadn't left after that game I'm pretty certain he would have guided the fannies in his team to another inglorious Scottish Cup run and a respectable 7th or 8th in the league.

Well I must be a clown ( then some ) as I handed I'n my season ticket until Fenlon left Hibs. I can honestly say I would do it again.

Yes we got to two cup finals but as my memory recalls we got well and truly spanked on both occasions. I've watched Hibs all my life and I am sorry if certain fans are happy to except mediocre as the norm, but I feel I needed to do something. We talk on here of them standing by for years under Romanov, watching their club waste money they never had. We laughed and joked how they could sit by and let it all happen. Well I decided enough for me and tried to do what I feel was correct to get change and better results.

I could buy a season ticket for next season but I feel I have spent enough money with no returns from Hibs but promises etc etc etc. Give me the quality that the board are promising and I'll make a promise to Hibs I'll buy a season ticket.

GGTTH

[Lucius Apuleius]

[QUOTE=Russ;4103184]I would say it was the clowns who protested after the cup defeat at ER to our neighbours who are to blame. If Fenlon hadn't left after that game I'm pretty certain he would have guided the fannies in his team to another inglorious Scottish Cup run and a respectable 7th or 8th in the league.

Well I must be a clown ( then some ) as I handed I'n my season ticket until Fenlon left Hibs. I can honestly say I would do it again.

Yes we got to two cup finals but as my memory recalls we got well and truly spanked on both occasions. I've watched Hibs all my life and I am sorry if certain fans are happy to except mediocre as the norm, but I feel I needed to do something. We talk on here of them standing by for years under Romanov, watching their club waste money they never had. We laughed and joked how they could sit by and let it all happen. Well I decided enough for me and tried to do what I feel was correct to get change and better results.

I could buy a season ticket for next season but I feel I have spent enough money with no returns from Hibs but promises etc etc etc. Give me the quality that the board are promising and I'll make a promise to Hibs I'll buy a season ticket.

GGTTH

Would still rather have got to the finals than not.

[Keith_M]

Would still rather have got to the finals than not.



Given the choice, I'd rather we had lost the semi-final in 2012 than endure the humiliation of that Final. Maybe that's just me.

[J-C]

Given the choice, I'd rather we had lost the semi-final in 2012 than endure the humiliation of that Final. Maybe that's just me.

I'm with you here, hate the snidey 5-1 finger thing at every opportunity by them, really grinds my gears.

[HH81]

[QUOTE=southern hibby;4103351]

Would still rather have got to the finals than not.

Correct. How many people wake up on cup final day and think I wish it was us. Yes we were crap both games but if you don't get there you have no chance of winning it.

[HH81]

So 2 weeks today this thread was started and we have signed 2 players. And we have still not signed a goalkeeper. We are in far worst shape than the team that couldn't beat Hamilton over 2 games. So much for 3 players in every position. A few injuries and we will struggle to fill the bench with players who have played first team games. Get the finger out Hibs!

Just goes to show what a shambles player recruitment has been this summer. If someone at Hibs wants to contact me i will give them names of several conference players that would love a chance to play for us. They would be good enough too.

[GreenCastle]

Just goes to show what a shambles player recruitment has been this summer. If someone at Hibs wants to contact me i will give them names of several conference players that would love a chance to play for us. They would be good enough too.

While it's been a struggle - it's hardly LD or AS fault.

They are picking up the pieces from previous regimes.

If we had a half decent scouting network in place we wouldn't be starting from scratch nearly.

Just shows what a shambles the club has been the last few years sadly and it's finally taken relegation to have a clean sweep and re-assessment of what needs to be done properly.

I know who I feel should be held accountable!

[southern hibby]

I'm hoping we can find a manger and a team who can take us all the way to the final and win it.

We can do it we really can, if we got together the board, management and fans all wanting the same goals ( pardon the pun) all with the same agenda. It could be achieved.

I've done my part with years of pain, suffering, under achieving and money spent. Give me some hope of fielding a team that can look interested, looks at least half fit, doesn't hide when it gets tough. A CREATIVE MIDFIELD PLAYER who can pass more than 10 yards. Just give me a few quality signings to build the team around and as I said before. Hibs can have my money.

My money is there ready to be spent but I want a change this season from being promised quality to actually getting it. I want to be entertained I want to challenge and if I see that is being sought then I will invest.

Hibs board the ball is I'n your court. GGTTH

[TornadoHibby]

I'm hoping we can find a manger and a team who can take us all the way to the final and win it.

We can do it we really can, if we got together the board, management and fans all wanting the same goals ( pardon the pun) all with the same agenda. It could be achieved.

I've done my part with years of pain, suffering, under achieving and money spent. Give me some hope of fielding a team that can look interested, looks at least half fit, doesn't hide when it gets tough. A CREATIVE MIDFIELD PLAYER who can pass more than 10 yards. Just give me a few quality signings to build the team around and as I said before. Hibs can have my money.

My money is there ready to be spent but I want a change this season from being promised quality to actually getting it. I want to be entertained I want to challenge and if I see that is being sought then I will invest.

Hibs board the ball is I'n your court. GGTTH

I don't think that you are alone with those sentiments but the Club seem to have taken the "heads in the sand" approach to ST pricing and how successful that is likley to be in comparison to a perhaps more enlightened commercial approach to pricing which would be more likely to get more bums on seats and more quickly. :agree:

It's time for those responsible for where we are as a Club to stand up and say that they were responsible for where we are and outline what they propose to do about it both strategically and operationally IMO. :agree:

Actually, this should have happened already and we should be moving towards getting AS some quick cash to let him bring in the quality that the Club will need to get out of this league at the first time of asking bearing in mind the player signings at the other two "prime candidates" for promotion according to the pundits! :agree:

[One Day Soon]

While it's been a struggle - it's hardly LD or AS fault.

They are picking up the pieces from previous regimes.

If we had a half decent scouting network in place we wouldn't be starting from scratch nearly.

Just shows what a shambles the club has been the last few years sadly and it's finally taken relegation to have a clean sweep and re-assessment of what needs to be done properly.

I know who I feel should be held accountable!


Certainly not AS' fault - though you would think it might have been possible to bring players in a little quicker.

LD cannot be wholly excused from responsibility here though. When she came in there was a choice to make - keep Butcher or get rid. She chose to get rid. That's fine but there are consequences to that.

Firstly if we are still paying Butcher's salary and that of Malpas it restricts the capacity of AS to afford players he may want - that's a consequence of the choice she made. Secondly by having the witch burning that most fans seemed to want we not only got rid of the manager but also the prospect of the plans he had in place to empty out the squad and bring in replacements from the list Marsella had earmarked.

So, people got to feel good (rightly or wrongly) about Butcher going only to be faced with the hangover after the party and that hangover is that a brand new manager was always going to take time to find and appoint, then take time deciding who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to bring in, find the players to bring in, try to negotiate those players in and then (and we clearly cannot yet be doing this) have the new squad doing pre-season training together and learning the new manager's playing style.

There was no way AS was just going to take Marsella's list and say 'aye fine, lets go with these guys.'

So, Devil's Advocate here - if we'd kept Butcher then every no-mark would be gone and he would have had a fresh start with his own squad. Of course they might STILL have ended up playing sub-hoofball. On the other hand a hand picked squad with full pre-season and playing the system he wanted might have been driving season ticket sales and showing expansive fast attacking football.

Its all about opinions eh? Mine is that we are too mentally weak, too thin in squad, too late in the training/squad development cycle and still too speculate to accumulate/risk-averse for some reason to have a realistic chance of coming up next season. It isn't going to be about beating The Rangers and Hearts next season, it is going to be about beating all the other teams week in and week out and the key thing in doing that is having a strong enough squad to survive the injuries and suspensions - especially as every other team will regard the top three as cup final games.

If it helps I think we were probably 5crewed either way, with marginally less risk in holding on to Butcher. Not that this was a particularly attractive option.

[--------]

[QUOTE=Doddie;4102870]

Break his tenure down into five year periods, and it paints a different picture.

90 - 95 : League Cup win, League Cup runners up.
95 - 00 : Period of stagnation under Miller, followed by disaster when replacing him.
00 - 05 : McLeishes Team, SC runners up, 6 - 2
05 - 10 : Mowbrays Team, Training Ground (spit); League Cup Winners.
10 - 14 : Spiral of Stagnation and Decline under successive dud managers, horsed in two SC finals, relegation, stadium finished.

Ok, I've been selective, and others could argue that we should really have done better (ignoring the fact that it is one of the more successful 25 year stretches in our history). However, I'd argue that for 20 of those years things were going OK, with attendances rising, and its only the last five that have been disaster.

Its clearly time to move on, but that should not be in rankerous circumstances.


"Selective" is the word I would choose as well. The recent history of the club doesn't fall into neat 5-year segments as you suggest.

Miller had us third in 1995; we were relegated in 1999. McLeish got us to third and the Cup Final in 2001. In 2001-02 we narrowly escaped relegation after McLeish left us and the loss of TV revenue dropped us right in the doo-doo. Williamson got us to the League Cup Final in 2004. Mowbray got us to third again in 2005. Collins came along in 2006 after TM left, and got us to the LC Final in 2007 (same season - arguably he had the advantage of Mowbray's good management to help him along).

We had flirted with relegation a couple of times during that period without going down, so this was a bit of a yo-yo period. What wasn't in dispute was that we were seeing good players on the pitch and the team was able to produce respectable results - even under Williamson who was working under the severe financial restraints imposed by STF and RP in the aftermath of the loss of the TV revenue.

The background to the events on the field during this etime was the building of the stadium as it is now, and the acquisition and building of East Mains. Finance was always apparently available for those projects, but not the team budget. Radical rebuild was OK if it rtelated to the material infrastructure of the club, not when it related to the team on the field, which, unless I've spent the last 50 years totally misunderstanding the sport of association football, is the be-all and end-all of any football club. THE TEAM.

The process of stagnation and decline has now been going on for seven years, not five. It seems to have begun during Collins' time, when we lost a number of extremely good players who were never replaced. Well, they WERE replaced, by the rubbish Collins and Craig brought in, an expenditure from which we've never recovered IMO. Collins left, was replaced by Mixu, who inherited a poisonous dressing-room culture (he's said so himself since leaving in his own turn. HIS transfer dealings took the team another rung down the ladder; then Yogi came in and repeated the process; then we had Calderwood, Fenlon, and Butcher. Of the last three only PF seems to have had some idea of how to coach footballers.

The constant through all of this has been the control of the club resting in the hands of STF and RP. No on else has been CONSTANTLY involved in the running of the club and the decision-making at the club throughout this period.

I don't suggest that they're the only guiulty parties, but if the same #1 and #2 own and run the club, and are responsible for all appointments, whci ultimately those two were, then I can't see how anyone can reasonably object to them being held ultimately responsible for the state of the club right now.

One last thing.

"However, I'd argue that for 20 of those years things were going OK, with attendances rising, and its only the last five that have been disaster."

That's a bit like saying that the maiden voyage of the Titanic really went OK - it was only the last 2-3 hours that were disaster. What has happened under Butcher has its seeds in what went before. Cause and effect working out through a long period of mismanagement.

The seeds of trouble have been there to see for at least 7 years. Actually, the signs were just beginning to show during TM's last 18 months. The focus of the board under RP was on the rebuild of the stadium and the acquisition of East Mains, not on the team. Petrie has been chairman for 10 years, since 2004. He was appointed by STF and has been backed and kept in place by STF.

I would suggest that Petrie's time at Easter Road has been a decade of decline, mismanagement, and confusion. STF was doing not too badly until he appointed him. Since then, it's been a slow decline from reasonable efficiency pre-Petrie to utter incompetence now.

[GreenCastle]

Can someone clarify please..

Is Marsella still here ? If so what is his role?

Is Combe now the main GK coach?

Is Scott Thomson still involved?

[ian omand]

[QUOTE=Jeremy Kyle;4102883]


"Selective" is the word I would choose as well. The recent history of the club doesn't fall into neat 5-year segments as you suggest.

Miller had us third in 1995; we were relegated in 1999. McLeish got us to third and the Cup Final in 2001. In 2001-02 we narrowly escaped relegation after McLeish left us and the loss of TV revenue dropped us right in the doo-doo. Williamson got us to the League Cup Final in 2004. Mowbray got us to third again in 2005. Collins came along in 2006 after TM left, and got us to the LC Final in 2007 (same season - arguably he had the advantage of Mowbray's good management to help him along).

We had flirted with relegation a couple of times during that period without going down, so this was a bit of a yo-yo period. What wasn't in dispute was that we were seeing good players on the pitch and the team was able to produce respectable results - even under Williamson who was working under the severe financial restraints imposed by STF and RP in the aftermath of the loss of the TV revenue.

The background to the events on the field during this etime was the building of the stadium as it is now, and the acquisition and building of East Mains. Finance was always apparently available for those projects, but not the team budget. Radical rebuild was OK if it rtelated to the material infrastructure of the club, not when it related to the team on the field, which, unless I've spent the last 50 years totally misunderstanding the sport of association football, is the be-all and end-all of any football club. THE TEAM.

The process of stagnation and decline has now been going on for seven years, not five. It seems to have begun during Collins' time, when we lost a number of extremely good players who were never replaced. Well, they WERE replaced, by the rubbish Collins and Craig brought in, an expenditure from which we've never recovered IMO. Collins left, was replaced by Mixu, who inherited a poisonous dressing-room culture (he's said so himself since leaving in his own turn. HIS transfer dealings took the team another rung down the ladder; then Yogi came in and repeated the process; then we had Calderwood, Fenlon, and Butcher. Of the last three only PF seems to have had some idea of how to coach footballers.

The constant through all of this has been the control of the club resting in the hands of STF and RP. No on else has been CONSTANTLY involved in the running of the club and the decision-making at the club throughout this period.

I don't suggest that they're the only guiulty parties, but if the same #1 and #2 own and run the club, and are responsible for all appointments, whci ultimately those two were, then I can't see how anyone can reasonably object to them being held ultimately responsible for the state of the club right now.

One last thing.

"However, I'd argue that for 20 of those years things were going OK, with attendances rising, and its only the last five that have been disaster."

That's a bit like saying that the maiden voyage of the Titanic really went OK - it was only the last 2-3 hours that were disaster. What has happened under Butcher has its seeds in what went before. Cause and effect working out through a long period of mismanagement.

The seeds of trouble have been there to see for at least 7 years. Actually, the signs were just beginning to show during TM's last 18 months. The focus of the board under RP was on the rebuild of the stadium and the acquisition of East Mains, not on the team. Petrie has been chairman for 10 years, since 2004. He was appointed by STF and has been backed and kept in place by STF.

I would suggest that Petrie's time at Easter Road has been a decade of decline, mismanagement, and confusion. STF was doing not too badly until he appointed him. Since then, it's been a slow decline from reasonable efficiency pre-Petrie to utter incompetence now.

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/top%20marks.gif

[Thecat23]

Can someone clarify please..

Is Marsella still here ? If so what is his role?

Is Combe now the main GK coach?

Is Scott Thomson still involved?

Yes scout.

Yes.

Not that I know of no.

[GreenCastle]

Yes scout.

Yes.

Not that I know of no.

Thanks for update.

[WestStandMoaner]

[QUOTE=Jeremy Kyle;4102883]


"Selective" is the word I would choose as well. The recent history of the club doesn't fall into neat 5-year segments as you suggest.

Miller had us third in 1995; we were relegated in 1999. McLeish got us to third and the Cup Final in 2001. In 2001-02 we narrowly escaped relegation after McLeish left us and the loss of TV revenue dropped us right in the doo-doo. Williamson got us to the League Cup Final in 2004. Mowbray got us to third again in 2005. Collins came along in 2006 after TM left, and got us to the LC Final in 2007 (same season - arguably he had the advantage of Mowbray's good management to help him along).

We had flirted with relegation a couple of times during that period without going down, so this was a bit of a yo-yo period. What wasn't in dispute was that we were seeing good players on the pitch and the team was able to produce respectable results - even under Williamson who was working under the severe financial restraints imposed by STF and RP in the aftermath of the loss of the TV revenue.

The background to the events on the field during this etime was the building of the stadium as it is now, and the acquisition and building of East Mains. Finance was always apparently available for those projects, but not the team budget. Radical rebuild was OK if it rtelated to the material infrastructure of the club, not when it related to the team on the field, which, unless I've spent the last 50 years totally misunderstanding the sport of association football, is the be-all and end-all of any football club. THE TEAM.

The process of stagnation and decline has now been going on for seven years, not five. It seems to have begun during Collins' time, when we lost a number of extremely good players who were never replaced. Well, they WERE replaced, by the rubbish Collins and Craig brought in, an expenditure from which we've never recovered IMO. Collins left, was replaced by Mixu, who inherited a poisonous dressing-room culture (he's said so himself since leaving in his own turn. HIS transfer dealings took the team another rung down the ladder; then Yogi came in and repeated the process; then we had Calderwood, Fenlon, and Butcher. Of the last three only PF seems to have had some idea of how to coach footballers.

The constant through all of this has been the control of the club resting in the hands of STF and RP. No on else has been CONSTANTLY involved in the running of the club and the decision-making at the club throughout this period.

I don't suggest that they're the only guiulty parties, but if the same #1 and #2 own and run the club, and are responsible for all appointments, whci ultimately those two were, then I can't see how anyone can reasonably object to them being held ultimately responsible for the state of the club right now.

One last thing.

"However, I'd argue that for 20 of those years things were going OK, with attendances rising, and its only the last five that have been disaster."

That's a bit like saying that the maiden voyage of the Titanic really went OK - it was only the last 2-3 hours that were disaster. What has happened under Butcher has its seeds in what went before. Cause and effect working out through a long period of mismanagement.

The seeds of trouble have been there to see for at least 7 years. Actually, the signs were just beginning to show during TM's last 18 months. The focus of the board under RP was on the rebuild of the stadium and the acquisition of East Mains, not on the team. Petrie has been chairman for 10 years, since 2004. He was appointed by STF and has been backed and kept in place by STF.

I would suggest that Petrie's time at Easter Road has been a decade of decline, mismanagement, and confusion. STF was doing not too badly until he appointed him. Since then, it's been a slow decline from reasonable efficiency pre-Petrie to utter incompetence now.

SPOT ON http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/top%20marks.gif

[Smartie]

Certainly not AS' fault - though you would think it might have been possible to bring players in a little quicker.

LD cannot be wholly excused from responsibility here though. When she came in there was a choice to make - keep Butcher or get rid. She chose to get rid. That's fine but there are consequences to that.

Firstly if we are still paying Butcher's salary and that of Malpas it restricts the capacity of AS to afford players he may want - that's a consequence of the choice she made. Secondly by having the witch burning that most fans seemed to want we not only got rid of the manager but also the prospect of the plans he had in place to empty out the squad and bring in replacements from the list Marsella had earmarked.

So, people got to feel good (rightly or wrongly) about Butcher going only to be faced with the hangover after the party and that hangover is that a brand new manager was always going to take time to find and appoint, then take time deciding who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to bring in, find the players to bring in, try to negotiate those players in and then (and we clearly cannot yet be doing this) have the new squad doing pre-season training together and learning the new manager's playing style.

There was no way AS was just going to take Marsella's list and say 'aye fine, lets go with these guys.'

So, Devil's Advocate here - if we'd kept Butcher then every no-mark would be gone and he would have had a fresh start with his own squad. Of course they might STILL have ended up playing sub-hoofball. On the other hand a hand picked squad with full pre-season and playing the system he wanted might have been driving season ticket sales and showing expansive fast attacking football.

Its all about opinions eh? Mine is that we are too mentally weak, too thin in squad, too late in the training/squad development cycle and still too speculate to accumulate/risk-averse for some reason to have a realistic chance of coming up next season. It isn't going to be about beating The Rangers and Hearts next season, it is going to be about beating all the other teams week in and week out and the key thing in doing that is having a strong enough squad to survive the injuries and suspensions - especially as every other team will regard the top three as cup final games.

If it helps I think we were probably 5crewed either way, with marginally less risk in holding on to Butcher. Not that this was a particularly attractive option.

This is a cracking post and one that I agree with almost entirely (I think you're a bit harsh on the current squad - if supplemented with suitable additions, and not even too many at that then I actually think they'll be fine - I agree that this year is not about the games against the big 2 but would hope that we should have enough about us to consistently do well against the rest.)

I think LD has taken a bold and difficult step in order to go down this path. It suggests a real, proper long-term plan, dare I say it a "5-year plan". These are plans to get you where you need to be in a certain space of time, but not sooner. We are moaning right now, and probably with good reason because of the lack of transfer activity, but it is better to wait and get the right people rather than get the wrong ones in now. It is most certainly not a 2 month plan, otherwise we'd have kept Butcher and gone with his signings, backroom staff etc.

The problem is that we have let it get so bad before embarking down this path that good player recruitment is going to be hellishly difficult, almost impossible. Fans have lost faith and whilst keen in principle to stump up season ticket money want to see action first, a dangerous stand-off.

I really wish that we'd decided to go down this path years ago - essentially a continuation of Mowbray/Williamson and working with the youths instead of the journeymen/blame the manager approach that we've gone with for far too long.

This would simply never have been accepted though, because I think that the other problem we have had has been a culture of very high expectation from the fans, brought about (amongst other things) from the sale of our best players for good fees that we should have expected to be invested in the team and very high ticket prices bringing about a high (and not unreasonable) expectation as to what should happen on the pitch.

It's going to be tough for LD and AS but if they work well with what they've got - and they've shown early promise that they're going to be able to do so - then they should win the support of the rest of the fans, and we can then put our recent misadventures behind us and go on to greater success.

[Nutmegged]

[QUOTE=Lucius Apuleius;4103358]

Correct. How many people wake up on cup final day and think I wish it was us. Yes we were crap both games but if you don't get there you have no chance of winning it.

No-one likes to lose but I'd rather lose in the Final than get papped out at the first time of asking or in any other round, Yes its heartbreaking when you lose a Final, Jeez we should know but the Cup run offers us hope, it gives us excitement, it adds to the whole experience, give me a Cup run taking us to the Scottish Cup final anytime.

Scottish Cup Final day is special, its the last day of the Season, its Saturday afternoon, the Sun is usually scorching, its the perfect situation -of course the results have been devastating, more so the actual performances but getting there...wow great memories, take last year as an example, Beating Hearts at Easter Road, Gary Deagan's strike and Williams penalty save against Aberdeen, the Leigh Griffiths game at Rugby Park then the comeback of all comebacks against Falkirk in the Semi Final, it was an unbelievable run we had, so entertaining, galling that it ended in a whimper but give me the choice of a Cup run and I'll snap your arm off dor it

[dp00]

.... Without a signing 😬

[CRAZYHIBBY]

Expect many more

[Pretty Boy]

I really felt what the boards were lacking at the moment was another thread about lack of signings.

Can't believe no one else has mentioned it, well done.

[scuttle]

Expect many more

What signings

[Nando™]

Another day closer to our next signing.

[Lago]

And Hearts say squad now complete for season.

[Cropley10]

And Hearts say squad now complete for season.

Excellent. Let's hope someone starts congratulating Hearts on their achievement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

And Hearts say squad now complete for season.

Unlucky for them.

No equivalent of a Pedantic Hibee deadline day thread for those scaffs.

[Lago]

[QUOTE=Jeremy Kyle;4102883]


"Selective" is the word I would choose as well. The recent history of the club doesn't fall into neat 5-year segments as you suggest.

Miller had us third in 1995; we were relegated in 1999. McLeish got us to third and the Cup Final in 2001. In 2001-02 we narrowly escaped relegation after McLeish left us and the loss of TV revenue dropped us right in the doo-doo. Williamson got us to the League Cup Final in 2004. Mowbray got us to third again in 2005. Collins came along in 2006 after TM left, and got us to the LC Final in 2007 (same season - arguably he had the advantage of Mowbray's good management to help him along).

We had flirted with relegation a couple of times during that period without going down, so this was a bit of a yo-yo period. What wasn't in dispute was that we were seeing good players on the pitch and the team was able to produce respectable results - even under Williamson who was working under the severe financial restraints imposed by STF and RP in the aftermath of the loss of the TV revenue.

The background to the events on the field during this etime was the building of the stadium as it is now, and the acquisition and building of East Mains. Finance was always apparently available for those projects, but not the team budget. Radical rebuild was OK if it rtelated to the material infrastructure of the club, not when it related to the team on the field, which, unless I've spent the last 50 years totally misunderstanding the sport of association football, is the be-all and end-all of any football club. THE TEAM.

The process of stagnation and decline has now been going on for seven years, not five. It seems to have begun during Collins' time, when we lost a number of extremely good players who were never replaced. Well, they WERE replaced, by the rubbish Collins and Craig brought in, an expenditure from which we've never recovered IMO. Collins left, was replaced by Mixu, who inherited a poisonous dressing-room culture (he's said so himself since leaving in his own turn. HIS transfer dealings took the team another rung down the ladder; then Yogi came in and repeated the process; then we had Calderwood, Fenlon, and Butcher. Of the last three only PF seems to have had some idea of how to coach footballers.

The constant through all of this has been the control of the club resting in the hands of STF and RP. No on else has been CONSTANTLY involved in the running of the club and the decision-making at the club throughout this period.

I don't suggest that they're the only guiulty parties, but if the same #1 and #2 own and run the club, and are responsible for all appointments, whci ultimately those two were, then I can't see how anyone can reasonably object to them being held ultimately responsible for the state of the club right now.

One last thing.

"However, I'd argue that for 20 of those years things were going OK, with attendances rising, and its only the last five that have been disaster."

That's a bit like saying that the maiden voyage of the Titanic really went OK - it was only the last 2-3 hours that were disaster. What has happened under Butcher has its seeds in what went before. Cause and effect working out through a long period of mismanagement.

The seeds of trouble have been there to see for at least 7 years. Actually, the signs were just beginning to show during TM's last 18 months. The focus of the board under RP was on the rebuild of the stadium and the acquisition of East Mains, not on the team. Petrie has been chairman for 10 years, since 2004. He was appointed by STF and has been backed and kept in place by STF.

I would suggest that Petrie's time at Easter Road has been a decade of decline, mismanagement, and confusion. STF was doing not too badly until he appointed him. Since then, it's been a slow decline from reasonable efficiency pre-Petrie to utter incompetence now.
I would agree with 90% of your post, however I would suggest that the decline at ER has been going on for many more than 10 years, what has masked it to a degree has been the over all decline in Scottish football. It is only in the last few years that Hibs have fallen faster than the rest of the pack.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I am sure AS and his team are doing all they can to get player's in, yes we all want them in now, but it is not always that easy.....Keep the faith!!!!

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Unlucky for them.

No equivalent of a Pedantic Hibee deadline day thread for those scaffs.

I'm hoping we don't make any deadline day signings either, it just gets in the way of a good thread. Complete inconvenience if I'm being honest.

[One Day Soon]

I'm hoping we don't make any deadline day signings either, it just gets in the way of a good thread. Complete inconvenience if I'm being honest.


Actually when is it? I need to put it in the diary now and keep it clear.

[Turkish Green]

And Hearts say squad now complete for season.

They will be stale by August. Still exciting times ahead for Hibs.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I really felt what the boards were lacking at the moment was another thread about lack of signings.

Can't believe no one else has mentioned it, well done.

Time since last signing clock to follow... And/Or hours until the window SLAMS shut.

[eastterrace]

I am sure AS and his team are doing all they can to get player's in, yes we all want them in now, but it is not always that easy.....Keep the faith!!!!

we might have a chance to get some players in seeing hearts have now got there squad completed. roll on the signings.

[Scouse Hibee]

I'm quietly confident that Stubbs will bring in some real quality, he has said that just adding to the squad to make up numbers is pointless and the players he brings in will really bring something extra to the squad. I'm happy to wait and let him deliver on his promise.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Actually when is it? I need to put it in the diary now and keep it clear.

No idea to be honest. I'm sure someone said it was a Friday this year.

[jdships]

I'm quietly confident that Stubbs will bring in some real quality, he has said that just adding to the squad to make up numbers is pointless and the players he brings in will really bring something extra to the squad. I'm happy to wait and let him deliver on his promise.

:thumbsup::agree:

[Speedway]

I am sure AS and his team are doing all they can to get player's in, yes we all want them in now, but it is not always that easy.....Keep the faith!!!!

Yet the yam managed it.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Yet the yam managed it.

Have they signed much quality? I never take much notice of the peasants

[Gerard]

Another day closer to our next signing.

:top marks

[Forza Fred]

I am sure AS and his team are doing all they can to get player's in, yes we all want them in now, but it is not always that easy.....Keep the faith!!!!

I'm afraid faith is maybe not abundantly available these days given past history with the club

Just as we did with Infrastructure several years ago - ie invest and get it right - so we appear to have done with our back room staff, hopefully

Unfortunately the common denominator again is that the playing staff appear to lag behind in the 'reform' process

Ultimately, what we want is a solid performing team on the park to celebrate, not pictures of stands or whether we have the best CEO/ Physio in the land.

I have come to the conclusion that it is very unlikely that we will be promoted at the end of this season based on the current squad,and expectations of incoming players based on our dealings to date, so am not going to get overly excited from this point.

That doesn't make it ok though and I do wish we were closer to finalising a decent squad...but as I say,I guess we'll have to wait until this time next year.

[Jonnyboy]

Yet the yam managed it.

I guess that depends on your definition of quality, Speeders

[The_Horde]

And Hearts say squad now complete for season.

Excellent. They've shown their hand early. Now we know what we have to beat!

[Forza Fred]

;4103895']Excellent. They've shown their hand early. Now we know what we have to beat!

We knew in past seasons

We just had difficulty in doing it

[Ronniekirk]

I guess that depends on your definition of quality, Speeders

Your definition of stunning was spot on ,but I think we need to acknowledge that Stubbs is indicating he is finding it frustrating trying to get his quality of player signed up .So in that regard am still cautious but there is time yet

[Jonnyboy]

Your definition of stunning was spot on ,but I think we need to acknowledge that Stubbs is indicating he is finding it frustrating trying to get his quality of player signed up .So in that regard am still cautious but there is time yet

I accept that Ronnie. I just don't think Hearts have signed any class players!

[gorgie greens]

we might have a chance to get some players in seeing hearts have now got there squad completed. roll on the signings.

Now the bookies dont get it wrong Often but they think its a 2 horse race so were as well keeping what little money we have and spend the season being put in our rightfull place,or make some key quality signings and give the thieves a run for their money,i know what i want out of those two

[Ronniekirk]

I accept that Ronnie. I just don't think Hearts have signed any class players!
To be honest jonnyboy neither do I just beginning to worry a wee bit at lack of progress as if players are choosing at this stage not to come to us we can't do a lot more as changed manager ,got in new Backroom staff and changed style of football ,so would of hoped that in itself would of made us more attractive proposition .Accept Being in Championship makes things more difficult but if ever there was a year to be in it this is it as more Media attention etc I know we will make several more signings but the less games the starting eleven have to play together the longer it could take team to gell ( forget about hair pun )

[sahib]

we might have a chance to get some players in seeing hearts have now got there squad completed. roll on the signings.

Well done Hearts, obviously got a bit of cash.
We will see which approach was best over the coming season.

[Hibernian Verse]

What's Deek up to these days? Surely he could do a job? :confused:


































:na na:

[FranckSuzy]

Whilst obviously we were the runners up again in 2013, it did galvanise the support after THAT game plus playing in the final got us into Europe. Oh wait.....:greengrin

[Glory Lurker]

If we'd lost the semis in 2012 and 2013, they would have been tagged on to the long list of disappointments over the years. I'd have forgotten them soon enough. My Hibee life would not have been any the poorer. Unfortunately we won them.....

[Iggy Pope]

If we'd lost the semis in 2012 and 2013, they would have been tagged on to the long list of disappointments over the years. I'd have forgotten them soon enough. My Hibee life would not have been any the poorer. Unfortunately we won them.....


Jesus Heroin Christ!

[WestCoastHibby]

Just goes to show what a shambles player recruitment has been this summer. If someone at Hibs wants to contact me i will give them names of several conference players that would love a chance to play for us. They would be good enough too.

Why don't you just be proactive and send your list in....??

[Glory Lurker]

Jesus Heroin Christ!


Opinions, eh?

[lord bunberry]

Now the bookies dont get it wrong Often but they think its a 2 horse race so were as well keeping what little money we have and spend the season being put in our rightfull place,or make some key quality signings and give the thieves a run for their money,i know what i want out of those two

The bookies think it's a one horse race, the rangers are 4/9 with hearts at 100/30 and hibs 6/1 and any price the rest

[Stonewall]

Certainly not AS' fault - though you would think it might have been possible to bring players in a little quicker.

LD cannot be wholly excused from responsibility here though. When she came in there was a choice to make - keep Butcher or get rid. She chose to get rid. That's fine but there are consequences to that.

Firstly if we are still paying Butcher's salary and that of Malpas it restricts the capacity of AS to afford players he may want - that's a consequence of the choice she made. Secondly by having the witch burning that most fans seemed to want we not only got rid of the manager but also the prospect of the plans he had in place to empty out the squad and bring in replacements from the list Marsella had earmarked.

So, people got to feel good (rightly or wrongly) about Butcher going only to be faced with the hangover after the party and that hangover is that a brand new manager was always going to take time to find and appoint, then take time deciding who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to bring in, find the players to bring in, try to negotiate those players in and then (and we clearly cannot yet be doing this) have the new squad doing pre-season training together and learning the new manager's playing style.

There was no way AS was just going to take Marsella's list and say 'aye fine, lets go with these guys.'

So, Devil's Advocate here - if we'd kept Butcher then every no-mark would be gone and he would have had a fresh start with his own squad. Of course they might STILL have ended up playing sub-hoofball. On the other hand a hand picked squad with full pre-season and playing the system he wanted might have been driving season ticket sales and showing expansive fast attacking football.

Its all about opinions eh? Mine is that we are too mentally weak, too thin in squad, too late in the training/squad development cycle and still too speculate to accumulate/risk-averse for some reason to have a realistic chance of coming up next season. It isn't going to be about beating The Rangers and Hearts next season, it is going to be about beating all the other teams week in and week out and the key thing in doing that is having a strong enough squad to survive the injuries and suspensions - especially as every other team will regard the top three as cup final games.

If it helps I think we were probably 5crewed either way, with marginally less risk in holding on to Butcher. Not that this was a particularly attractive option.

Do you think the players Butcher had earmarked would still have come given that we had been relegated?

You may be right that we won't come straight back up but the way I look at it we appear to have a strategy and footballing vision at the club for the first time since Mowbray. TB was emptied because he wasn't the right person to deliver on LDs vision for the club not as a knee jerk reaction to relegation.

I have a sneaking suspicion that had RP been making the decision then TB would still be our manager and where that would have taken us is anyone's guess. I would say we are screwed either way (at least for this season) but there was marginally less risk in getting rid of Butcher, but only if it's part of a long term strategy for the club. One which is delivered.

[Forza Fred]

Do you think the players Butcher had earmarked would still have come given that we had been relegated?

You may be right that we won't come straight back up but the way I look at it we appear to have a strategy and footballing vision at the club for the first time since Mowbray. TB was emptied because he wasn't the right person to deliver on LDs vision for the club not as a knee jerk reaction to relegation.

I have a sneaking suspicion that had RP been making the decision then TB would still be our manager and where that would have taken us is anyone's guess. I would say we are screwed either way (at least for this season) but there was marginally less risk in getting rid of Butcher, but only if it's part of a long term strategy for the club. One which is delivered.

The mistake we made was in not sacking Butcher immediately

He got the final say in getting rid of Thomson and McPake, whomI think would have been handy additions to our threadbare squad at this level

That we kept him for a couple of weeks put us right behind the 8 ball, a nd we are paying for that now

It's not As's fault that he was recruited so late

[Forza Fred]

The bookies think it's a one horse race, the rangers are 4/9 with hearts at 100/30 and hibs 6/1 and any price the rest

I would have thought Falkirk's odds would have been the same as ours?

[Steve20]

I'm quietly confident that Stubbs will bring in some real quality, he has said that just adding to the squad to make up numbers is pointless and the players he brings in will really bring something extra to the squad. I'm happy to wait and let him deliver on his promise.

Most of our recent managers have said the same. Time to soup talking about it and actually do it. Other clubs have managed to bring in their targets by now. Why can't we? Deadline might be over a month away but players should be in by start of the season. No point bringing in the 'quality' if we're already 6-7 points behind.

[Turkish Green]

The mistake we made was in not sacking Butcher immediately

He got the final say in getting rid of Thomson and McPake, whomI think would have been handy additions to our threadbare squad at this level

That we kept him for a couple of weeks put us right behind the 8 ball, a nd we are paying for that now

It's not As's fault that he was recruited so late

Did LD ever have to sack a manager at Motherwell? Was TB her first.

With 20/20 hindsight I am sure RP/LD would have had TB's replacement ready. I am still of the opinion that when LD went into the meeting with TB it was not with the sole intention of sacking him (he could have been sacked over the phone 10 days before) but when TB would not buy-in to LD's plan the die was cast. 17 days were wasted between the Hamilton game on 25 May and TB's sacking on 10 June.

AS has to live with the collateral damage from TB's reign. It may take some time to fix.

[Scouse Hibee]

Most of our recent managers have said the same. Time to soup talking about it and actually do it. Other clubs have managed to bring in their targets by now. Why can't we? Deadline might be over a month away but players should be in by start of the season. No point bringing in the 'quality' if we're already 6-7 points behind.


The season has not started yet so who says we won't have players in by the start of the season?

[overdrive]

Did LD ever have to sack a manager at Motherwell? Was TB her first.

With 20/20 hindsight I am sure RP/LD would have had TB's replacement ready. I am still of the opinion that when LD went into the meeting with TB it was not with the sole intention of sacking him (he could have been sacked over the phone 10 days before) but when TB would not buy-in to LD's plan the die was cast. 17 days were wasted between the Hamilton game on 25 May and TB's sacking on 10 June.

AS has to live with the collateral damage from TB's reign. It may take some time to fix.

Sacked Jim Gannan

[Lucius Apuleius]

We knew in past seasons

We just had difficulty in doing it

Yet season before last IIRC we were unbeaten against them?

[Keith_M]

.....another Dollar.

[Turkish Green]

I would have thought Falkirk's odds would have been the same as ours?
That's not how the poor bookie works. Odds are generally determined by how many punters (and with how much) back a team. Rangers even with a team of auld yins would still be odds on due to the mogal horde that follows them.

I suspect there has been more bets placed on Hibs than Falkirk which is why their odds are shorter. And probably the euphoric yams have placed wads of cash on their team which is why their odds are shorter than Hibs.

Personally, I would never bet on something where you have to wait 10 months for the outcome.

[Nutmegged]

I think Leeann Dempster took her time in replacing Butcher because she came tothe conclusion that they were going to have to keep hin on the pay-roll, at least until he gets himself a new job - I'd imagine both Leeann and Petrie were tooibg and throwing over spending money on two managers and two sets off backroom staff or one manager (Butcher) and giving him more funds for players.

maybe two weeks was a tad too long but I genuinely believe this was the dilemma that held up proceedings

[Keith_M]

Maybe Dempster took her time in making a decision on Butcher because she's aware that making rash decisions can often cost much more in the long run. It's entirely possible that she both wanted to do what was right for Hibs and also give Butcher the opportunity to demonstrate whether he bought into her vision for the club. It seems like he didn't, so she moved on to another option.

FWIW, I think the decisions she has made about signing up Stubbs and the Coaching Staff will benefit Hibs in the long-term... if the fans at least give them a chance.

[lord bunberry]

I would have thought Falkirk's odds would have been the same as ours?

Falkirk were 28/1 the last time I checked.

[Jones28]

If we struggled to attract a decent caliber of player when we were in the doldrums the premier league then it must be 10x harder with relegation.

Pleased that Stubbs isn't taking anyone and everyone though. Hearts seem to have signed what was available as quickly as possible.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Hearts and Hearts seem to have signed what was available as quickly as possible.

Hearts and there New Management have been working on this coming season since before they were employed, Hibs well, they have been working on this season as little over 3weeks.

We will get there, but we aint going to be coming out the blocks sprinting that for sure.

Remember 4th place gets you into the play off position.

[--------]

I'm quietly confident that Stubbs will bring in some real quality, he has said that just adding to the squad to make up numbers is pointless and the players he brings in will really bring something extra to the squad. I'm happy to wait and let him deliver on his promise.

Me too. :agree:


Yet the yam managed it.

Stubbs has been in the job what, three weeks? Dempster's been here six? Got to figure out what's needed, what's available, what they has already. I'd rather they took a bit of time to get things right than adopt the appraoch we've used the last few seasons - "if it moves and it's cheap, sign it" - actually, the first of those conditions seems to have been optional at times.


Hearts and there New Management have been working on this coming season since before they were employed, Hibs well, they have been working on this season as little over 3weeks.

We will get there, but we aint going to be coming out the blocks sprinting that for sure.

Remember 4th place gets you into the play off position.

My thoughts, Scott. Since Butcher apparently sacked the entire squad before he left, I think Dempster and Stubbs have done an OK job to get us to where they have us now.

[FranckSuzy]

If we'd lost the semis in 2012 and 2013, they would have been tagged on to the long list of disappointments over the years. I'd have forgotten them soon enough. My Hibee life would not have been any the poorer. Unfortunately we won them.....

:faf:

[Iggy Pope]

Opinions, eh?

I know. Sorry. It was late.
Your post had the humour and bite lacking in a lot of what goes on here.

Sorry again.

[basehibby]

[QUOTE=Lucius Apuleius;4103358]

Correct. How many people wake up on cup final day and think I wish it was us. Yes we were crap both games but if you don't get there you have no chance of winning it.

:agree: Absolutely - we were underdogs going into both these finals but underdogs sometimes win. AS it happened there were no upsets - the Celts got another bauble to be complacent about and the Yams got their pyrrhic victory to gloat over. But losing cup finals is ALWAYS painful - sometimes even more so if it's agonisingly close. I'd rather be there every year cos at least by the law of averages we might end up winning the damn thing either deservedly or not - if you don't get to the final that ain't gonna happen.

[clerriehibs]

I have my own ST and 2 for other family members.

TThere's f all coming out of ER that is even slightly sparking my interest in the coming season.

[bingo70]

I'm not panicking but pretty disappointing it's looking like another day with no new players.

I know it's no disaster but I just think the supporters could do with a shot in the arm a couple of exciting signings would give.

[Glory Lurker]

I know. Sorry. It was late.
Your post had the humour and bite lacking in a lot of what goes on here.

Sorry again.


Nae bother :aok:

[Alfred E Newman]

These would be the same bookies that had Hibs favourites to win in every one of their last 5 or 6 games at the end of last season.

[GlasgowHibee]

Was told we've got 3 players signed and are almost ready to announce them, should be tomorrow/Friday.

No idea on the player names but definitely know there's 3 of them.

[Cropley10]

If we'd lost the semis in 2012 and 2013, they would have been tagged on to the long list of disappointments over the years. I'd have forgotten them soon enough. My Hibee life would not have been any the poorer. Unfortunately we won them.....

If we'd lost to Falkirk then Pat would have been sacked, a new man would have come in and we wouldn't have been relegated.

Thems the breaks.

[clerriehibs]

If we'd lost to Falkirk then Pat would have been sacked, a new man would have come in and we wouldn't have been relegated.

Thems the breaks.

Actually, Pat left us in mid-table mediocrity, a new man came in, and relegated us.

[rcarter1]

Was told we've got 3 players signed and are almost ready to announce them, should be tomorrow/Friday.

No idea on the player names but definitely know there's 3 of them.

Intriguing.

[Beefster]

Actually, Pat left us in mid-table mediocrity, a new man came in, and relegated us.

Using that logic, Calderwood had us mid-table and Fenlon almost relegated us the same season.

[3pm]

Using that logic, Calderwood had us mid-table and Fenlon almost relegated us the same season.

But never.

[Iggy Pope]

If we'd lost to Falkirk then Pat would have been sacked, a new man would have come in and we wouldn't have been relegated.

Thems the breaks.


Actually, Pat left us in mid-table mediocrity, a new man came in, and relegated us.


Using that logic, Calderwood had us mid-table and Fenlon almost relegated us the same season.


But never.


on second thoughts Glory Lurker, Jesus Heroin Christ!!!!!!!

[The Leith Dutch]

Was having a wee think about how many we may be looking to sign.

According to LD it's a squad size of 38 with one senior, one "under 20" and one youth player per position.
Assuming an even division we'd expect 13 senior players give or take.
(GK, 3 x CB, 1x LB, 1 x RB, 3 x CM/AM, 1 x LM, 1 x RM, 2 x FW ?)

I make it currently a minimum of 9:
Hanlon, Nelson, Gray, Stevenson, Robertson, Craig, OTJ, Heffernan & El Alagui.
You can add one to that on the presumption that we sign a senior Keeper.

Question: Do any of Handling, Harris, Stanton and Forster count as seniors or all under 20?

[ekhibee]

Falkirk were 28/1 the last time I checked.
40/1 with Paddy Power.

[Forza Fred]

I think Leeann Dempster took her time in replacing Butcher because she came tothe conclusion that they were going to have to keep hin on the pay-roll, at least until he gets himself a new job - I'd imagine both Leeann and Petrie were tooibg and throwing over spending money on two managers and two sets off backroom staff or one manager (Butcher) and giving him more funds for players.

maybe two weeks was a tad too long but I genuinely believe this was the dilemma that held up proceedings

Not criticising LD- she too walked into a hornet's nest and although Butcher's sacking was belated, I think it was absolutely the right thing.

My point about the mistake we made....probably indicates the absolute shambles of a club we were until recently

If Petrie had any round objects he would have handed Butcher his P45 immediately after the Hamilton game, instead of allowing him to go on holiday etc..after all he was still in charge at the time

I 'be got little doubt tha had Ld not have been coming then we 'd be facing the unpalatable probability that Butcher would still be here!

[eastterrace]

40/1 with Paddy Power.

they could be a 100 to one they have no chance.

[Forza Fred]

Hearts and there New Management have been working on this coming season since before they were employed, Hibs well, they have been working on this season as little over 3weeks.

We will get there, but we aint going to be coming out the blocks sprinting that for sure.

Remember 4th place gets you into the play off position.

Admins

This post seems too well thought out and sensible for the current climate of debate.

Can you please remove or it will only encourage people to do similar

[The Leith Dutch]

If Petrie had any round objects he would have handed Butcher his P45 immediately after the Hamilton game, instead of allowing him to go on holiday etc..after all he was still in charge at the time

I reckon it was only fair to let LD make that call - the difference sacking Butcher or keeping him makes to her budget is probably very significant and for that alone I'd have let her make the choice.

Course that probably wasn't Petrie's thinking.....

[Iggy Pope]

Was having a wee think about how many we may be looking to sign.

According to LD it's a squad size of 38 with one senior, one "under 20" and one youth player per position.
Assuming an even division we'd expect 13 senior players give or take.
(GK, 3 x CB, 1x LB, 1 x RB, 3 x CM/AM, 1 x LM, 1 x RM, 2 x FW ?)

I make it currently a minimum of 9:
Hanlon, Nelson, Gray, Stevenson, Robertson, Craig, OTJ, Heffernan & El Alagui.
You can add one to that on the presumption that we sign a senior Keeper.

Question: Do any of Handling, Harris, Stanton and Forster count as seniors or all under 20?

Sure they do. They all had squad numbers. So does Cummings.
Forster was about third top scorer!

[Forza Fred]

they could be a 100 to one they have no chance.

I agree

But I think we will be very close to them at season's end, unfortunately

[eastterrace]

I agree

But I think we will be very close to them at season's end, unfortunately

kinda agree we might just scrape into the playoffs if we can keep our annual slump down to a few months.

[Brightside]

Sure they do. They all had squad numbers. So does Cummings.
Forster was about third top scorer!

and Booth.... be two more max i think

[shetlandhibee]

No-one :rolleyes: :brickwall

[Tricla]

💩

[Tyler Durden]

That's not how the poor bookie works. Odds are generally determined by how many punters (and with how much) back a team. Rangers even with a team of auld yins would still be odds on due to the mogal horde that follows them.

I suspect there has been more bets placed on Hibs than Falkirk which is why their odds are shorter. And probably the euphoric yams have placed wads of cash on their team which is why their odds are shorter than Hibs.

Personally, I would never bet on something where you have to wait 10 months for the outcome.

Sorry but that's not accurate. Of course betting activity (ie lots of money bet on a certain team/result) can affect a price but that is not how they are calculated.

I doubt the bookies have taken much business on the Scottish Championship. And as someone pointed out earlier, the odds show a 1 horse race.

[Leitherhibs]

Sorry but that's not accurate. Of course betting activity (ie lots of money bet on a certain team/result) can affect a price but that is not how they are calculated.

I doubt the bookies have taken much business on the Scottish Championship. And as someone pointed out earlier, the odds show a 1 horse race.

Having been a statistician for a high street bookmaker, i can confirm there is an awful lot more that goes into the calculation of prices. Your average punter would be surprised just how much detail the bookmaker goes in to before publishing and then adjusting prices.

[Lucius Apuleius]

This thread is correct though. The summer of shambles continues.

What is needed are new signings, any idea if this is happening?

I think it is happening.

[MrSmith]

I think it is happening.

Really?? Tell me what you know! :devil:

[Criswell]

No-one :rolleyes: :brickwall

Guys, Guys... Relax! Don't you know Leeann has a "vision" for how the club will be playing its football under her leadership; it's going to be silky, free-flowing, high-scoring, you know that sort of thing.

Anyway, apparently she hauled Butcher in to set out her "vision" to him and he said "Nah, I am only interested in playing "hoofball". So he was emptied. And that is a Hibs.Net Fact!

[Lucius Apuleius]

Really?? Tell me what you know! :devil:

Nothing tbh. Just have every faith and belief. :-)

[Iggy Pope]

This thread is correct though. The summer of shambles continues.

What is needed are new signings, any idea if this is happening?

No idea Halifax old chum.
Can I ask? Have you bought a Season Ticket? A purchase might assist the outrage attached to your original post. And subsequent posts. Add some credibility even.
What the hell, eh?

PS
Screw Cougars! (whatever they are)

[Brightside]

Having been a statistician for a high street bookmaker, i can confirm there is an awful lot more that goes into the calculation of prices. Your average punter would be surprised just how much detail the bookmaker goes in to before publishing and then adjusting prices.

or he just copies betfair!!

[Glory Lurker]

on second thoughts Glory Lurker, Jesus Heroin Christ!!!!!!!

Thank flip Roland Orzabal didn't have to deal with .net back in the day, or "Mad World" would have been even more downbeat!

[HH81]

No idea Halifax old chum.
Can I ask? Have you bought a Season Ticket? A purchase might assist the outrage attached to your original post. And subsequent posts. Add some credibility even.
What the hell, eh?

PS
Screw Cougars! (whatever they are)

You can ask what ever you like but I can not guarantee an answer....

So Hamilton are season tickets holders the only people who can have an opinion on the Hibs summer of love? If your happy then your easy pleased.

If you sit back and accept everything is ok and nothing happens you end up with pen shoot out losses in play off finals. At the present time there no chance of Hibs making one this season so action is needed is relations to signing of a better standard of player. Lets not forget Hibs have announced that they are going for the title, really? based on what so far? You keep on sitting back and pretending everything is ok.

As for your Cougar comment, don't be a bully.

[HappyAsHellas]

You can ask what ever you like but I can not guarantee an answer....

So Hamilton are season tickets holders the only people who can have an opinion on the Hibs summer of love? If your happy then your easy pleased.

If you sit back and accept everything is ok and nothing happens you end up with pen shoot out losses in play off finals. At the present time there no chance of Hibs making one this season so action is needed is relations to signing of a better standard of player. Lets not forget Hibs have announced that they are going for the title, really? based on what so far? You keep on sitting back and pretending everything is ok.

As for your Cougar comment, don't be a bully.

No one is pretending what happened wasn't disastrous, but the changes have been made with the appointments of the key management and coaching staff. This is the base from which we will, and are building. It was never going to happen in a week or two, but I strongly believe we are making a great start on the road to where we should be. If you want to find negativity in this, then that's up to you, it just gets tiresome reading the same old moans constantly. Why not cheer yourself up and go to the game on Sunday? - You'll love it!

[HH81]

No one is pretending what happened wasn't disastrous, but the changes have been made with the appointments of the key management and coaching staff. This is the base from which we will, and are building. It was never going to happen in a week or two, but I strongly believe we are making a great start on the road to where we should be. If you want to find negativity in this, then that's up to you, it just gets tiresome reading the same old moans constantly. Why not cheer yourself up and go to the game on Sunday? - You'll love it!

The backroom changes have been decent, however, Hibs have said they are going for the title but yet have made 2 signings. Were almost at the end of July and most of the players are from last season. This has to be a worry for everyone unless your happy for 2 years in this league? I don't normally moan look back at my posts for the last 10 years but last season was a joke and I don't think the summer has gone great either.

I would love to have come up but have been really ill since May so cant face the 4 hour drive,

[gorgie greens]

The backroom changes have been decent, however, Hibs have said they are going for the title but yet have made 2 signings. Were almost at the end of July and most of the players are from last season. This has to be a worry for everyone unless your happy for 2 years in this league? I don't normally moan look back at my posts for the last 10 years but last season was a joke and I don't think the summer has gone great either.

I would love to have come up but have been really ill since May so cant face the 4 hour drive,

Hope you get better and make the trip once your fit for it,
i agree wih you and by the ammount of other posters on this forum feel a lot of guys have the same feelings as yourself,
im willing to back AS and his backroom staff as i believe they had to get the infastructure right and feel they have done so much already to change that,now thats done i have every confidence that we will get the right players to allow us to go right back up at first attempt,then if there is no more guys comming in then i cant see us going up this time,a few in the know guys say we should have another couple signed up this week so i have my fingers crossed at that.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Hearts and there New Management have been working on this coming season since before they were employed, Hibs well, they have been working on this season as little over 3weeks.

We will get there, but we aint going to be coming out the blocks sprinting that for sure.

Remember 4th place gets you into the play off position.


Admins

This post seems too well thought out and sensible for the current climate of debate.

Can you please remove or it will only encourage people to do similar

:greengrin

[IWasThere2016]

No-one :rolleyes: :brickwall

I've asked about journos/agents etc., and the consensus is we do not have the cash. I expect only 2 permanent signings and 2-3 loanees.

[Turkish Green]

Remember 4th place gets you into the play off position.
As little as 1 pt more than 5th earns you a play-off place. Not too difficult even for a threadbare squad.

In the last two seasons, 5th place amassed a total of 51 pts. That is an average of 14/15 wins. If Hibs cannot win at least 40% of their fixtures in the Championship then they will have to resign themselves to another season in the doldrums.

My worry is that when they do (not if) reach the Play-Offs they will bottle it.

[easty]

As little as 1 pt more than 5th earns you a play-off place. Not too difficult even for a threadbare squad.

In the last two seasons, 5th place amassed a total of 51 pts. That is an average of 14/15 wins. If Hibs cannot win at least 40% of their fixtures in the Championship then they will have to resign themselves to another season in the doldrums.

My worry is that when they do (not if) reach the Play-Offs they will bottle it.

I thought 2nd played 3rd from the Championship, and the winner played the 2nd bottom side from the SPL.

How do the playoffs work if 4th gets you in?

[Dr Jimmy]

I've asked about journos/agents etc., and the consensus is we do not have the cash. I expect only 2 permanent signings and 2-3 loanees.

2 more permanent signings or have we done them in Gray & el farudi (sp)?

[JimBHibees]

I thought 2nd played 3rd from the Championship, and the winner played the 2nd bottom side from the SPL.

How do the playoffs work if 4th gets you in?

4th plays 3rd, then the winner plays 2nd then the winner of that plays second bottom of top league. So potentially 6 games to get up if 4th or 3rd.

[J-C]

4th plays 3rd, then the winner plays 2nd then the winner of that plays second bottom of top league. So potentially 6 games to get up if 4th or 3rd.


Ah! so 2nd gets a bye to start things then, I see.

[zero-seven]

As little as 1 pt more than 5th earns you a play-off place. Not too difficult even for a threadbare squad.

In the last two seasons, 5th place amassed a total of 51 pts. That is an average of 14/15 wins. If Hibs cannot win at least 40% of their fixtures in the Championship then they will have to resign themselves to another season in the doldrums.

My worry is that when they do (not if) reach the Play-Offs they will bottle it.

basically i would have kept williams and thomson maybe mcpake then we have a bit of a spine..we also need fresh experienced faces who can control midfield and a proven goalscorer

easy

[scott7_0(Prague)]

basically i would have kept williams and thomson maybe mcpake then we have a bit of a spine..we also need fresh experienced faces who can control midfield and a proven goalscorer

easy

Is that a PUN, with McPake - his back was/is/will be ****ed.

[Turkish Green]

I thought 2nd played 3rd from the Championship, and the winner played the 2nd bottom side from the SPL.

How do the playoffs work if 4th gets you in?
It's rigged in favour of the SPL 11th placed club.

1 - 4v3 then 3v4
2 - 3/4 v 2 then 2 v 3/4
3 - 2/3/4 v 11 then 11 v 2/3/4

2 Legs over a squashed period

[Turkish Green]

Does anyone believe that RP is not concerned as he knows the SPFL will be reorganised for a 18 club top flight at the end of the season regardless of a top 4 finish?

[Iggy Pope]

You can ask what ever you like but I can not guarantee an answer....

So Hamilton are season tickets holders the only people who can have an opinion on the Hibs summer of love? If your happy then your easy pleased.

If you sit back and accept everything is ok and nothing happens you end up with pen shoot out losses in play off finals. At the present time there no chance of Hibs making one this season so action is needed is relations to signing of a better standard of player. Lets not forget Hibs have announced that they are going for the title, really? based on what so far? You keep on sitting back and pretending everything is ok.

As for your Cougar comment, don't be a bully.

But the more season ticket holders we have, the less there will be for you to moan about and help the club in the action of signing a better standard of player.
And who said I was happy? You're the one sitting back but bumping your gums. I took action and bought a Season Ticket for the 30th year on the stoat. Don't know if it made me happy though.

A bully? Me? The kind of guy who gives away his Eddie Turnbull tribute programme to a complete stranger, postage and all?

[blackpoolhibs]

But the more season ticket holders we have, the less there will be for you to moan about and help the club in the action of signing a better standard of player.
And who said I was happy? You're the one sitting back but bumping your gums. I took action and bought a Season Ticket for the 30th year on the stoat. Don't know if it made me happy though.

A bully? Me? The kind of guy who gives away his Eddie Turnbull tribute programme to a complete stranger, postage and all?

:faf: I know, it seems to be the new buzz word on dot net recently. :rolleyes:

[Keith_M]

Actually when is it? I need to put it in the diary now and keep it clear.


Transfer Window: Scotland....


Start: 10.06.2014 - 00h | Close: 01.09.2014 - 23h

[Jamesie]

Does anyone believe that RP is not concerned as he knows the SPFL will be reorganised for a 18 club top flight at the end of the season regardless of a top 4 finish?

This has crossed my mind - but at the present time are we guaranteed top six in the Championship?

[Ringothedog]

This has crossed my mind - but at the present time are we guaranteed top six in the Championship?

Maybe not top 6 but we should comfortably make top 10.

[jacomo]

Does anyone believe that RP is not concerned as he knows the SPFL will be reorganised for a 18 club top flight at the end of the season regardless of a top 4 finish?

Says who?

[Ryan69]

I'm sorry but I just find it absolutely incredible that there seems no sign of players...and were supposed tobe happy now?

There are 2 theories.....Are we going for the league? Or are we cost cutting for a season knowing we have a better chance of promotion next season(like were used too!)?

It's absolutely ridiculous at the moment....our team is nowhere nearly strong enough and apart from Leigh coming back....Get over it,ain't happening!

Any signings on the cards....or even positives?

[eastterrace]

I'm sorry but I just find it absolutely incredible that there seems no sign of players...and were supposed tobe happy now?

There are 2 theories.....Are we going for the league? Or are we cost cutting for a season knowing we have a better chance of promotion next season(like were used too!)?

It's absolutely ridiculous at the moment....our team is nowhere nearly strong enough and apart from Leigh coming back....Get over it,ain't happening!

Any signings on the cards....or even positives?
its a two year plan , hope to go up via play offs but if not then the big push following season as one or both our rivals will be out the league so dont expect big signings as we are skint. sorry to be negative but thats my take on it so just accept it and enjoy the ride.

[Hermit Crab]

I'm sorry but I just find it absolutely incredible that there seems no sign of players...and were supposed tobe happy now?

There are 2 theories.....Are we going for the league? Or are we cost cutting for a season knowing we have a better chance of promotion next season(like were used too!)?

It's absolutely ridiculous at the moment....our team is nowhere nearly strong enough and apart from Leigh coming back....Get over it,ain't happening!

Any signings on the cards....or even positives?


Good post. I agree it's very frustrating at the moment but I do think we'll get another couple in possibly from Everton before the windows over. Not looking likely for Griffiths so we need to concentrate on others now.

[Ryan69]

It's going tobe interesting...that much is certain!

Know how Hibs are though...Nobody predicts our signings,always close to chest!

Couple of good signings...I'd think we can do it!

Hearts have somehow spent!
Rangers spent abit.now don't have a pot to piss in!
Wages wise
What stage are we?

[SteveHFC]

I'm sorry but I just find it absolutely incredible that there seems no sign of players...and were supposed tobe happy now?

There are 2 theories.....Are we going for the league? Or are we cost cutting for a season knowing we have a better chance of promotion next season(like were used too!)?

It's absolutely ridiculous at the moment....our team is nowhere nearly strong enough and apart from Leigh coming back....Get over it,ain't happening!

Any signings on the cards....or even positives?

Have to agree mate. A few more players should have been signed by now whether if it's permanent or a loan deal. No doubt we'll wait until the last day of the transfer window as usual and sign players no one else wants :aok:

[Alfred E Newman]

I am trying to be patient as Stubbs tries to rebuild the squad but I am now starting to worry at lack of signings . Though the football is better, it was obvious on Sunday that the team , which is basically the side that were relegated, still suffers from the old problem of soft centre and lack of goal threat.

[Borderhibbie76]

Its all gone very very quiet...worryingly so!!

[DC_Hibs]

Most folk were pretty accepting of things after a narrow win over Livingston. As expected, meltdown/reality check hit after being beaten by the Saviles. They've signed 11 players and decided to have a go this season which in turn encouraged season ticket sales and a higher budget. Hardly rocket science.

What would the reaction have been immediately after relegation if you knew we'd have had these players in the 11 to play HoMFC in the 2nd league game of the season??

Stevenson
Craig
Forster
Nelson
Harris
Robertson
Handling
Stanton

Folk moan about Hibs fans tae - wonderfully patient and accepting of mediocrity.
Still...Stubbs man management and style of fitba will have us challenging.

[NAE NOOKIE]

The style of football has improved, but in this league results are more important. As Mr Stubbs has said already its about winning games.

That philosophy was evident in the way we killed the game in the last 10 minutes against Livvi. But the way we stopped playing any sort of decent football at the PBS after missing the penalty and our apparent reluctance to go for the win is not the sort of attitude which will get us promoted and did not seem to me to be part of the stated go out to win ethos we were supposed to be going for.

Allan and Kennedy have barely had a kick so far, but with Robertson suspended and Stanton so obviously out of place wide left perhaps they will get a shot now.

We could do with another couple of signings no doubt, but I don't think they will be exciting ones or better than what we have. I think they will at best be recruited as being adequate cover for the likes of Hanlon or Craig.

I hate to say it, but I am beginning to think that the people in charge don't think for a second that we have any chance of winning this league. They are probably confident that we can make the play off games with what we have, but they don't want to spend money on players who might have a chance of winning the play offs, because even if they did ( spend the money ) we still might not win them.

Better to wait until The Rangers or the Yams, or preferably both, are out of the league ..... Then spending money might be much less of a risk ...... Of course not going up first time carries its own risk which might be a lot more damaging to the club in financial terms than spending a few bob now.

[LancsHibs]

Most folk were pretty accepting of things after a narrow win over Livingston. As expected, meltdown/reality check hit after being beaten by the Saviles. They've signed 11 players and decided to have a go this season which in turn encouraged season ticket sales and a higher budget. Hardly rocket science.

What would the reaction have been immediately after relegation if you knew we'd have had these players in the 11 to play HoMFC in the 2nd league game of the season??

Stevenson
Craig
Forster
Nelson
Harris
Robertson
Handling
Stanton

Folk moan about Hibs fans tae - wonderfully patient and accepting of mediocrity.
Still...Stubbs man management and style of fitba will have us challenging.

Total meltdown mate! I like everybody was totally stunned, then raging. I said immediately after the game against Hamilton that the only payers I would consider keeping were Forster/Stanton/Harris and that was only because they were young and had potential to develop. Time is a healer and we have had an opportunity to calm down and come to terms with our situation but I don't feel that there have been enough changes and sincerely hope there are more to come in before the end of the month. For 8/11 of the starting line up in the derby to be last years flops was disheartening.

[lord bunberry]

its a two year plan , hope to go up via play offs but if not then the big push following season as one or both our rivals will be out the league so dont expect big signings as we are skint. sorry to be negative but thats my take on it so just accept it and enjoy the ride.

If that's the case then Leeann Dempster has been lying to us from the minute she arrived. If we don't sign anymore players then I would have to agree with you, we will just have to wait and see.

[HoboHarry]

If that's the case then Leeann Dempster has been lying to us from the minute she arrived. If we don't sign anymore players then I would have to agree with you, we will just have to wait and see.
Tell us how she has lied would you?

[DC_Hibs]

For 8/11 of the starting line up in the derby to be last years flops was disheartening.

Exactly and questions have to be asked why two of the signings who could make a difference were sitting on the bench......and reactively brought on when facing defeat.

It looks to me that after choosing to spend on infrastructure rather than the team we are now choosing to spend on staff costs excluding players.

These will benefit us but if we have another poor season we won't be in a position to afford all these backroom bods. Thank F we had 5000 ST renewals before relegation was decided as there would be thousands more choosing not to renew as a result of how the season ahead is looking.

Still time but it's running out rapidly and we face another tough game tomorrow.

[silverhibee]

Tell us how she has lied would you?

Go back and watch some of the videos or read some papers from when she joined, she said we will make the big push to go up first time round, it wasn't any talk of a two year plan.

Where has the ST money gone to.

[Kato]

Go back and watch some of the videos or read some papers from when she joined, she said we will make the big push to go up first time round, it wasn't any talk of a two year plan.

Where has the ST money gone to.

A "two year plan" has only been speculated about on here.

[Green&White]

in my opinion our biggest problem is that petrie is still here. LD can have all the best intentions but with him still there nothing will change. he still controls the money.

[blackpoolhibs]

A "two year plan" has only been speculated about on here.

This squad of players CANT win the league, i have no doubt in my mind about that. This squad of players WONT win any play off match, again i have no doubt in my mind about that, if they actually made the play off place?

We still need 4 more players, another left back a centre half, a creative central midfielder and a forward. All players who'd replace those currently in those positions.

If we just signed Griffiths, (please) it still would not be enough to drag this team up in my opinion, we are very short of real quality, which is why i personally think we are not serious about getting up this season.

[Ronniekirk]

A "two year plan" has only been speculated about on here.
It's clear that the players brought in on permanent deals have been given two year deals for continuity whether that be back up or still in championship and that Stubbs believes they can do a job in both .There is no doubt in my mind he would have wanted more quality players in on similar deals but that hasn't been possible .So in sense that they know we can't be guaranteed we will get promoted this season the changes being made are to benefit club in longer term so there has bound to have been due consideration to that possibility

[Scottie]

A "two year plan" has only been speculated about on here.

" a two year plan " ?

Thought it was a " five year plan "a few years ago and I'm still waiting to see any results of that one :confused:

[southern hibby]

I Put my faith I'n Leeann, as stated above all talk was aimed at promotion first time round. This leads me to two conclusions. 1 we were given a false promise of promotional push so season ticket sales would rise. 2 AS is happy with the squad he has and doesn't want any more players I'n.
Now from what I've seen of football managers they are always trying to get more players I'n as it gives them more options etc etc. So out of the 2options above I know which one I believe.

There is also another possible option which we have not covered that all this talk of possible take overs has put a curb on money being spent until the take over is approved or completely rejected. For example no new bid is submitted.

GGTTH

[Jpdhfc]

A "two year plan" has only been speculated about on here.

Still not been a big push though we live in hope

[Bostonhibby]

Have been doing my best to put a positive spin on how I see things but I would be concerned to see any back tracking from LDs' original position which was a target of winning the league. Remain very impressed with Stubbs and the general direction we claim to be taking but I am way past words now - only deeds will convince me now as we have had a great talker in Butcher.

I think the purse strings are currently as tightly held or influenced by RP as they ever were and I am hoping the ST money has been saved for a couple of quality signings otherwise, until the legendary balance sheet is published I can't see where the money has gone at the moment.

We will struggle with the squad we currently have. Not a lot of experienced cover and quality still lacking in key areas - I doubt we have the time to develop the young quality we have if we intend to go up this season.

[NatureBoy]

'Quality over quantity' was the mantra coming out ER in the closed season whilst trying to encourage the purchase of season tickets.

Call me cynical for starting to wonder if the wool has yet again been pulled over our eyes. We've got rid of 18 players an signed 3 of permanent contracts. Your not telling me any of the 3 with the possible exception of Allen are on as high wages as Thomson, McPake or Collins?

I would love to think the board have a couple of 'quality' signings lined up but going by past experience I remain extremely sceptical.

[Beefster]

Where has the ST money gone to.


The ST money has probably drastically reduced because folk are finding excuses not to renew (Rodders, Championship, pies being rubbish, it gets cold in the winter). Given that the money has to also pay the wages/contract renewals of players already at the club, it might not be too much of a stretch to suggest that it's being used.

Unless there are suggestions that the club is holding vast sums of ST money back?

[Iain G]

I Put my faith I'n Leeann, as stated above all talk was aimed at promotion first time round. This leads me to two conclusions. 1 we were given a false promise of promotional push so season ticket sales would rise. 2 AS is happy with the squad he has and doesn't want any more players I'n.
Now from what I've seen of football managers they are always trying to get more players I'n as it gives them more options etc etc. So out of the 2options above I know which one I believe.

There is also another possible option which we have not covered that all this talk of possible take overs has put a curb on money being spent until the take over is approved or completely rejected. For example no new bid is submitted.

GGTTH

You missed out (at least) one other option, though this one is less conspiratorial. That there is still money there to get some players in but Stubbs hasnt found players that are what he wants to sign.

Still to many folks immediatley thinking the worst about everything Hibs do at the moment.

[blackpoolhibs]

You missed out (at least) one other option, though this one is less conspiratorial. That there is still money there to get some players in but Stubbs hasnt found players that are what he wants to sign.

Still to many folks immediatley thinking the worst about everything Hibs do at the moment.

And i'd bet every Hibs fan hopes this is indeed the case, but be honest here. We have seen the same scenario year after year, do you honestly think this is what's happening?

[Iain G]

And i'd bet every Hibs fan hopes this is indeed the case, but be honest here. We have seen the same scenario year after year, do you honestly think this is what's happening?

Willing to give Stubbs and Leeann the time to get it right. Lot of change in place in the last 8 weeks and Stubbs has said he wants more players in so happy to wait and see what happens over the next week or so.

Sorry just trying to be positive ;)