takeover

[Gordy M]

That's the problem on here, there is no middle ground when discussing how Hibs should be run. Its either Petrie's and Famers way or its Leeds Portsmouth Hearts or Rangers way, these are the only other options it appears.
The problem is, that on a lot of occassions that is the only other option. Tell me a scottish team that hasnt had financial problems without having the benefit of a 'sugar daddy' type owner to bail them out?? Im not saying i dont want change but this is what worries me. If we as a club get into financial bother, who picks up the bill?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Sorry to bang on about the 'German model' I know that some are sceptical about whether it could be applied in a league of our size.

My take on it from a Hibs perspective is simply that we only have one example of this type of ownership to base a judgement on. That has not just been a success ..... it has been a huge success. I appreciate that there are big differences in finances and population between Scotland and Germany. But the type of cash Hibs need to succeed in Scotland is not the same as Werder Bremen or SV Hamburg for example need in Germany.

Interestingly the football model Hibs are putting in place just now is not far away from the direction taken by German clubs .... getting involved with Spartans, having all teams from kids to first team playing the same way. Even Leeann Dempster's comment about wanting to see kids in Hibs tops rather than Celtic, Rangers, Man Utd, Barcelona etc when she drives around Edinburgh echoes a concern that German clubs had about the same situation ........ In a documentary I watched they stated a determination to take active steps to get kids behind their local clubs by having massive involvement with the local community. As far as Hibs are concerned that should mean all of the Lothians and the Borders.

In fact when it comes to the Borders both Hibs and ( luckily for us ) hearts have made little or no attempt to proactively encourage or even acknowledge their support from this area. The Borders is not a huge geographical area with a number of small towns, it has been accurately described as a city of 100,000 people with huge parks.

For every kid you see here with a Hibs or hearts top you see 20 in celtic, rangers, Liverpool, Barcelona etc. Hibs could do worse than target this huge market. A market they have neglected for far too long.

[blackpoolhibs]

The statement was that

"Not least that the bottom line at a football club isn't the balancing of the accounts, but the position of the team in the league."

Are Rangers not the most successful Scottish Club ever?

Clearly there is a balance to be had but who decides where that line is?


The problem is, that on a lot of occassions that is the only other option. Tell me a scottish team that hasnt had financial problems without having the benefit of a 'sugar daddy' type owner to bail them out?? Im not saying i dont want change but this is what worries me. If we as a club get into financial bother, who picks up the bill?

Motherwell and St Johnstone have outdone us on the park with a smidgen of our turnover. Why are these clubs not seen as the way to run things without bankrupting their clubs? Add in Ross bloody County and Inverness who's turnover is more in line with my grandsons savings account and money box of donations from relatives, so you can see why i mention Leeds and the likes.

Even Dundee United who spend less are bringing in better players, sorry have brought in better players in the past, better not say that about this season as we dont know who we are signing yet? Spending money you dont have IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION, spending what you have better is.

[NAE NOOKIE]

By those criteria Rangers are/were (depending on your viewpoint) the most successful Football Club in history.

I believe Doddie's post stated that a balance was required, he was not advocating suicidal spending.

It seems to me that whenever anybody mentions spending you get hysteria about Leeds and Rangers. Or on any new owner thread the candidates simply must only consist of crooks and nutters.

[blackpoolhibs]

I believe Doddie's post stated that a balance was required, he was not advocating suicidal spending.

It seems to me that whenever anybody mentions spending you get hysteria about Leeds and Rangers. Or on any new owner thread the candidates simply must only consist of crooks and nutters.

:agree::top marks

[Kaiser1962]

Motherwell and St Johnstone have outdone us on the park with a smidgen of our turnover. Why are these clubs not seen as the way to run things without bankrupting their clubs? Add in Ross bloody County and Inverness who's turnover is more in line with my grandsons savings account and money box of donations from relatives, so you can see why i mention Leeds and the likes.

Even Dundee United who spend less are bringing in better players, sorry have brought in better players in the past, better not say that about this season as we dont know who we are signing yet? Spending money you dont have IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION, spending what you have better is.


Nobody said it was. The argument was that football clubs are not a business and judged on results and not the balance sheet. In which case Rangers are the most successful Scottish Club ever.

I think we all accept that Hibs should be doing better than they are.

[silverhibee]

The problem is, that on a lot of occassions that is the only other option. Tell me a scottish team that hasnt had financial problems without having the benefit of a 'sugar daddy' type owner to bail them out?? Im not saying i dont want change but this is what worries me. If we as a club get into financial bother, who picks up the bill?

St Mirren.

[Gordy M]

Motherwell and St Johnstone have outdone us on the park with a smidgen of our turnover. Why are these clubs not seen as the way to run things without bankrupting their clubs? Add in Ross bloody County and Inverness who's turnover is more in line with my grandsons savings account and money box of donations from relatives, so you can see why i mention Leeds and the likes.

Even Dundee United who spend less are bringing in better players, sorry have brought in better players in the past, better not say that about this season as we dont know who we are signing yet? Spending money you dont have IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION, spending what you have better is.
Im sorry but motherwell have already been in admin, if not twice, and are now owned by john boyle(multi millionaire) steven thomson(multi milionaire) at dundee utd wrote off about 3/4 million. Ross county(im sure its walkers shortbread family, multi millionaires) and st j(geoff brown multi millionaire) are both owned in the same way as us. And thats not including aberdeen, celtic, the rangers all owned by multi millionaires. Most, if not all, teams are run the same way as hibs.

By the way st j have just announced that they are signing NO ONE this year due to lack of finances!

Im not sure about ICT to be honest.

Im not saying it wont work, what im saying is that if we got into financial bother.....who bails us out, as the many teams in scotland have in the past?

[Kaiser1962]

I believe Doddie's post stated that a balance was required, he was not advocating suicidal spending.

It seems to me that whenever anybody mentions spending you get hysteria about Leeds and Rangers. Or on any new owner thread the candidates simply must only consist of crooks and nutters.

Which nullify's the statement that it's not a business and that the bottom line is the position of the team in the league.

[pedroorange1875]

St Mirren.


There is no chance St Mirren will help us

[Keith_M]

St Mirren.


They had to sell their Stadium and move to a smaller ground away from the town centre to help clear their debts.

[Gordy M]

St Mirren.
Yep fair enough, what is their ownership model. Do they own their own ground? Did they not sell it to pay off their debt?

[silverhibee]

They had to sell their Stadium and move to a smaller ground away from the town centre to help clear their debts.

No sugar daddy involved though, and lets be honest the old ground was falling to pieces, it was a good move for them and since then have avoided being relegated and won silverware as well.

[silverhibee]

Yep fair enough, what is their ownership model. Do they own their own ground? Did they not sell it to pay off their debt?

Yeah they sold the old ground to Tesco(maybe) to help pay of the debts they had, the old ground was a f***ing dump and was close to falling down, pretty sure they own the new lego stadium they are at now, it would seem it was a good deal all round for all concerned, they also get all Scotland Under 21s games played there too, whatever the ownership model is it seems to be a better one than Hibs have had over the last few years, both clubs have reached finals as well, they beat the yams, you know how we got on in ours.

No sugar daddy involved, apart from Chick Young. :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

Im sorry but motherwell have already been in admin, if not twice, and are now owned by john boyle(multi millionaire) steven thomson(multi milionaire) at dundee utd wrote off about 3/4 million. Ross county(im sure its walkers shortbread family, multi millionaires) and st j(geoff brown multi millionaire) are both owned in the same way as us. And thats not including aberdeen, celtic, the rangers all owned by multi millionaires. Most, if not all, teams are run the same way as hibs.

By the way st j have just announced that they are signing NO ONE this year due to lack of finances!

Im not sure about ICT to be honest.

Im not saying it wont work, what im saying is that if we got into financial bother.....who bails us out, as the many teams in scotland have in the past?

Motherwell have indeed been in admin, but so have Hearts. Does that mean they can no longer compete for honors anymore or win football matches that make them finish higher than we do?

I dont give a flying toss who owns the club, but if that owner has presided over a relegation and a decline in standards thats quite frankly been as astonishing as ours, then they either need to put THEIR money in or go. And let someone else who actually wants to own the club have a go.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Which nullify's the statement that it's not a business and that the bottom line is the position of the team in the league.

Not at all.

Everybody acknowledges that the club is a business. But it is a failing business if you accept that there is a direct correlation between success on the park and success of the business. The owners of Hibs idea of attracting paying customers is a year on year apology for the previous season and an appeal to the fans loyalty and vague promises of better things to come which rarely if ever materialise. They have been utterly unwilling or unable ( take your pick ) to take calculated risks to improve the clubs on field results, which is bog standard practice for most real businesses, even though there is hard evidence that Hibs fans will turn out to see a decent team.

Not forgetting that the merest suggestion that our owners might want to risk a penny of their own money on a speculate to accumulate venture would cause a rip in the fabric of time and space.

If the bottom line for a professional football club ( business or not ) is not its position in the league or success in cups then what the hell is the point of it? It might as well be an amateur club.

[Gordy M]

Yeah they sold the old ground to Tesco(maybe) to help pay of the debts they had, the old ground was a f***ing dump and was close to falling down, pretty sure they own the new lego stadium they are at now, it would seem it was a good deal all round for all concerned, they also get all Scotland Under 21s games played there too, whatever the ownership model is it seems to be a better one than Hibs have had over the last few years, both clubs have reached finals as well, they beat the yams, you know how we got on in ours.

No sugar daddy involved, apart from Chick Young. :greengrin
:greengrin Hahaha, good old chick still pretending he supports st mirren! I just like the idea of a debt guarantor in the background ensuring our finincial safety, if required. Obv no one has seen exactly how it would work but as i mentioned previously, who would bail us out if needed, if we are fan owned?

[Gordy M]

Motherwell have indeed been in admin, but so have Hearts. Does that mean they can no longer compete for honors anymore or win football matches that make them finish higher than we do?

I dont give a flying toss who owns the club, but if that owner has presided over a relegation and a decline in standards thats quite frankly been as astonishing as ours, then they either need to put THEIR money in or go. And let someone else who actually wants to own the club have a go.
So what you are saying is that its ok to go bust as long as you can still compete for honours?? Well its a road i dont wish to go down. I dont give a toss whether its stf or not, my opinion is that if we dont have someone of his ilk then who pays the bills if it goes wrong?? The fans??

Im not against change, but id rather not go down the fan ownership route. Im not convinced it can work.

[blackpoolhibs]

So what you are saying is that its ok to go bust as long as you can still compete for honours?? Well its a road i dont wish to go down. I dont give a toss whether its stf or not, my opinion is that if we dont have someone of his ilk then who pays the bills if it goes wrong?? The fans??

Im not against change, but id rather not go down the fan ownership route. Im not convinced it can work.

I give up. :rolleyes:

[Kaiser1962]

Not at all.

Everybody acknowledges that the club is a business.

Yes it does



They've been running the club like a business. It's not a business, it's a football club.

[Kaiser1962]

I give up. :rolleyes:

No you dont G. :greengrin

All this is doing is highlighting how difficult it is and the problems that we have/are going to face.

[Kaiser1962]

Yeah they sold the old ground to Tesco(maybe) to help pay of the debts they had, the old ground was a f***ing dump and was close to falling down, pretty sure they own the new lego stadium they are at now, it would seem it was a good deal all round for all concerned, they also get all Scotland Under 21s games played there too, whatever the ownership model is it seems to be a better one than Hibs have had over the last few years, both clubs have reached finals as well, they beat the yams, you know how we got on in ours.

No sugar daddy involved, apart from Chick Young. :greengrin

That was possibly the best deal they could have got, and the timing helped greatly as well but hat's off to them.

[Gordy M]

I give up. :rolleyes:
Ok maybe i misunderstood you, what was the point you were making about motherwell and hearts going into admin and now still competing for honours?
I did ask who would pay the bills if it goes wrong and thats how you responded? That to me suggested that you were saying it was ok if we couldnt pay the bills as we would return as they have. If i misunderstood i do apologise.

[blackpoolhibs]

Ok maybe i misunderstood you, what was the point you were making about motherwell and hearts going into admin and now still competing for honours?
I did ask who would pay the bills if it goes wrong and thats how you responded? That to me suggested that you were saying it was ok if we couldnt pay the bills as we would return as they have. If i misunderstood i do apologise.

They went into admin everyone knows this, the world does not stop and keep punishing them. Motherwell have been out of admin for years. They have now got to the stage where they outperform us regularly.

And they do it on a much lower turnover.

I'd put money on Hearts doing the same under the current owner.

[--------]

By those criteria Rangers are/were (depending on your viewpoint) the most successful Football Club in history.

In Scotland, arguably, yes. I would have thought that that was fairly obvious. I don't like it any more than you do.

But you should rather be looking at Rangers and Celtic as a partnership, each partner feeding off the other. Since Celtic crawled out of the swamp in 1888, the Old Firm have used sectarianism and bigotry to stoke up business for themselves to the point where no other teams can realistically compete within Scotland.

Their problem now is that their dominance in Scotland has ebecome meaningless in all but one way - they exploit that dominance as a way into European competition, specifically, the Champions' League. As long as the SPFL has enough residual status within UEFA to warrant 2 Champions' League places, the OF have what they want - a subservient League that allows them to manipulate the finances of sponsorship and advertising to allow them to compete in Europe. But their constant domination, and their increasingly poor performances in Europe, mean that the SPFL will very soon be given only ONE CL place. When that happens, the OF will find themselves hit by the same problems that have affected other Scottish clubs for years - only one of them will have access to CL money. The other will find it impossible to compete in either the CL or the UEFA League at the level expected by their grandiose and intolerant fans, and THEN the smelly stuff will collide with the airconditioning and no mistake.

To satisfy the grandiosity of their mirror-image bigot fans, BOTH Celtic and The Rangers need to be competing reasonably successfully in Europe. When this becomes impossible - and it will, sooner or later, unless the long-term decline of the SPL/SPFL/whatever it's calling itself 10 years from now is halted. And that can only be done if the OF act to strengthen their rivals in the Premiership - and thereby strengthen the Premiership itself) by voluntarily sacrificing their short-term interests and sharing financial and playing resources with the others.

(As if THAT's likely to happen any time soon. :rolleyes:)


Which nullify's the statement that it's not a business and that the bottom line is the position of the team in the league.

No, it doesn't. A business exists to make a profit, thereby providing a dividend for its shareholders. A football club exists to put a successful and attractive team on the pitch, thereby satisfying its supporters and attracting others to come along to its games. This in turn increases the club's turnover, allowing for an increased salary-budget for the players, which in turn allows the club to sign up better players than they already have.

Which means a better team on the field, more paying spectators, a bigger budget, and therefore even better players.

The supporters, who may not own shares in the club, are nevertheless stakeholders in the club. Anyone who has been an ST holder every season since STF took over will have spent a great deal of money on the club - if you take a rough estimate of say, £200 as the price of an ST (which I would guess to be on the low side), such a supporter will have given the club £10,000 over the past quarter-century. This isn't to mention the money spent on replica kit, club-marked merchandise, food and drink, and so on. And if that supporter has, say, two kids ...

Hibs have assumed that if I am a genuine Hibs supporter, I will pay my money either for an ST or at the gate matchday by match day. They expect me to buy the kit and the merchandise, not because it's better than any other club's kit and merchandise, but because it HIBS kit and merchandise. And they also assume that they can change the look and cut of the kit, and the range of merchandise available, without ever actually doing any research into what I would really like to buy in suppoort of my club.

It's a bit like those "spiritual" people you meet at airports, who make you a "gift" of a book, then cut up rough if you don't show your gratitude by giving them a hefty donation for their cult funds.

I don't want to buy an all-green shirt with the Hibs badge on it. I want to buy a green shirt with white sleeves with the badge on it, and maybe even a big number "5" and "Big Bad John" blazoned across the back, or whatever, but I'm not going to buy something that I don't recognise as meeting my expectations of what a Hibs shirt looks like. Not ever. Especially when it looks like a Plymouth Argyle training top from 1993. Or something.

That's just one example - Tesco can get away with changing its product-line without consulting me. Hibs can't, because they're a football club, not a supermarket chain. There has to be more consultation, more intimacy, more communication, or eventually, I get tired of being taken for granted, or looked on as the not-sufficiently-grateful recipient of STF's charity, and I go somehwere else to amuse myself.

Like the Speedway. Or the cinema. Or a weekend trip to Milan to take in a performance of "Tosca" at La Scala on the Saturday evening and the Milan derby at the San Siro on the Sunday afternoon. Which would be the weekend of a lifetime and wouldn't necessarily cost me so much more than an ST for Easter Road.

Bottom line (see what I did there? :devil:) - if Hibs are a business, I'm free to walk away and take my custom and money elsewhere.

If I'm expected to show loyalty and support for "my" team, then the people running it need to start to work a lot harder to meet me and my fellow-fans at least half-way. Not just assume I'll keep putting my hand deep into my pocket regardless of how big a mess they make of things.


They had to sell their Stadium and move to a smaller ground away from the town centre to help clear their debts.

You might say that that was simply showing flexibility and running the club in a business-like manner?

Football clubs in Scotland, especially the smaller-to medium-sized clubs like St Mirren and Hibs, are going to have to change in big ways to keep going as halfway respectable clubs.

[TornadoHibby]

Bottom line (see what I did there? :devil:) - if Hibs are a business, I'm free to walk away and take my custom and money elsewhere.

If I'm expected to show loyalty and support for "my" team, then the people running it need to start to work a lot harder to meet me and my fellow-fans at least half-way. Not just assume I'll keep putting my hand deep into my pocket regardless of how big a mess they make of things.

You might say that that was simply showing flexibility and running the club in a business-like manner?

Football clubs in Scotland, especially the smaller-to medium-sized clubs like St Mirren and Hibs, are going to have to change in big ways to keep going as halfway respectable clubs.

Some decent points in their Doddie, particularly this one which I have previously suggested as a reasonable summary of things and why the club should cover the costs of serious errors of judgement such as those of those choosing team managers over the past 5 or 6 years! :agree:

I'd probably watch what I am saying or the Hibs dot net "police" will slap another charge on me for saying something very obvious to anyone who opens their minds and eyes to what has been happening at Hibs for some years now! :rolleyes:

[Kaiser1962]

In Scotland, arguably, yes. I would have thought that that was fairly obvious. I don't like it any more than you do.

[snip]

Football clubs in Scotland, especially the smaller-to medium-sized clubs like St Mirren and Hibs, are going to have to change in big ways to keep going as halfway respectable clubs.

There is little doubt that the facts (trophies won, games won) prove that they are, indeed, the most successful club but I was using them as an extreme example. And no, I don't like it at all.

I was also being a tad pedantic with your post in order to highlight the difficulties we all face and don't disagree with much of what you said.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Yes it does

See post 275 by Doddie ..... much more eloquent than me.

[Kaiser1962]

See post 275 by Doddie ..... much more eloquent than me.

Hibernian FC are a business and are subject to business legislation. It has shareholders, directors, trades and pays taxes. While it may not be making shedloads of money it is one of the few that has been profitable, but only just mind, although it appears to spend to spend every penny it brings in trying to improve the football side. That we have been ***** at this is not the point. If they fail to trade effectively they go bust no matter what the results on the pitch are whereas trading profitably ensures you can put a team on the pitch.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Hibernian FC are a business and are subject to business legislation. It has shareholders, directors, trades and pays taxes. While it may not be making shedloads of money it is one of the few that has been profitable, but only just mind, although it appears to spend to spend every penny it brings in trying to improve the football side. That we have been ***** at this is not the point. If they fail to trade effectively they go bust no matter what the results on the pitch are whereas trading profitably ensures you can put a team on the pitch.

If the product a business is selling is rubbish and people stop buying it the fact that the business keeps running does not mean it is trading effectively.

[Steven_Hibs]

Keep your eyes peeled on developments in the next few weeks 😉

[jdships]

Keep your eyes peeled on developments in the next few weeks 



Heard the same !
" PETRIE'S STAYING ON " :greengrin

[Viva_Palmeiras]

It's unfortunate that things are not more clear-cut.

Before the start of the season IMO there should be a statement or statements outline the position which will hopefully not hang over the season like a dark cloud. Any activity should be done in line with our club's goal - to gain promotion.

[blackpoolhibs]

Keep your eyes peeled on developments in the next few weeks 

No, definitely not. What a ridiculous statement, why do some folk feel the need to say something like this, but in reality say nothing at all? :rolleyes:


In other news, keep your eyes open on new signings, something is happening, cant say what but believe me in the next few weeks things will become a lot clearer.

[jdships]

No, definitely not. What a ridiculous statement, why do some folk feel the need to say something like this, but in reality say nothing at all? :rolleyes:


In other news, keep your eyes open on new signings, something is happening, cant say what but believe me in the next few weeks things will become a lot clearer.



Confucious he say " Keep eyes open and one will see where one is going " :aok:

[Keith_M]

Confucious he say " Keep eyes open and one will see where one is going " :aok:




Butcher he say, "allow other team score first, takes away fear of other team score first!"

[Steven_Hibs]

No, definitely not. What a ridiculous statement, why do some folk feel the need to say something like this, but in reality say nothing at all? :rolleyes:


In other news, keep your eyes open on new signings, something is happening, cant say what but believe me in the next few weeks things will become a lot clearer.

New signings pah! Last week of the season is the Hibs way. Pick the creme of the what's left pile. It's the Hibs way of saving wages

[Gordy M]

Since we have suggestions on the 'what the hell is going on' thread that STF should donate/spend up to 2.5 million to bolster the playing squad, il ask the question again, if fans buy him out, who would we go to in a similar situation if the fans are the owners?

[easty]

Since we have suggestions on the 'what the hell is going on' thread that STF should donate/spend up to 2.5 million to bolster the playing squad, il ask the question again, if fans buy him out, who would we go to in a similar situation if the fans are the owners?

Bake sales

[blackpoolhibs]

Since we have suggestions on the 'what the hell is going on' thread that STF should donate/spend up to 2.5 million to bolster the playing squad, il ask the question again, if fans buy him out, who would we go to in a similar situation if the fans are the owners?

I have to correct you on one point here, nobody is suggesting STF puts 2.5m in to bolster the squad, whats suggested is he puts that kind of money in, but he'd hopefully get it back sharpish when the season tickets go out the door in record time?

Plus if we only sold around 9k which i'd be quite sure we'd sell if STF was to show some leadership, according to the club, the average season ticket costs £200 after concessions.

We'd only have a £200k shortfall, but you never know perhaps we'd sell 11k?

We've never tried it before, yet apparently STF continues to prop us up at the end of every season with loans, well i'm saying why not before the season starts?

[Gordy M]

I have to correct you on one point here, nobody is suggesting STF puts 2.5m in to bolster the squad, whats suggested is he puts that kind of money in, but he'd hopefully get it back sharpish when the season tickets go out the door in record time?

Plus if we only sold around 9k which i'd be quite sure we'd sell if STF was to show some leadership, according to the club, the average season ticket costs £200 after concessions.

We'd only have a £200k shortfall, but you never know perhaps we'd sell 11k?

We've never tried it before, yet apparently STF continues to prop us up at the end of every season with loans, well i'm saying why not before the season starts?
Aye sorry, someone had posted that STF had 'loaned' hibs another 2.5 million this year as we were losing money. I agree with the premise, all im saying is that if STF wasnt there, who lends the money in the first place? And if we do find another person with that kind of cash, are they going to 'loan' us the money whilst we try and sell the season books with no guarantees? Im just not sure that we are.

[blackpoolhibs]

Aye sorry, someone had posted that STF had 'loaned' hibs another 2.5 million this year as we were losing money. I agree with the premise, all im saying is that if STF wasnt there, who lends the money in the first place? And if we do find another person with that kind of cash, are they going to 'loan' us the money whilst we try and sell the season books with no guarantees? Im just not sure that we are.

Good question, and the answer is obviously the new owners. Saying that, this is not the way to run the club. Losing money is not the way forward, and its clear to me, the way its been run is not the way any club should be run.

Clubs much smaller than us are outplaying us, and not ending up like Leeds United, having an absent owner has not worked, having someone who wants to be there day to day must be better surely?

[Gordy M]

Good question, and the answer is obviously the new owners. Saying that, this is not the way to run the club. Losing money is not the way forward, and its clear to me, the way its been run is not the way any club should be run.

Clubs much smaller than us are outplaying us, and not ending up like Leeds United, having an absent owner has not worked, having someone who wants to be there day to day must be better surely?
And i think that is the questions id like answered before fully committing to the fans takeover. Im not totally against it, i just like the idea that we could be bailed out if needed with an 'owner'. Im assuming under fan ownership you can only spend what we generate, and im not sure that would meet with fans expectations. We certainly wont be able to change managers and sign the amount of players we sign under fan ownership. Now the argument is that under a new regime we would appoint better and wouldnt find ourselves in that position, yes this may be true but we cant guarantee that? And i would suggest that the current owner has tried to rectify that particular problem by appointing LD?

[blackpoolhibs]

And i think that is the questions id like answered before fully committing to the fans takeover. Im not totally against it, i just like the idea that we could be bailed out if needed with an 'owner'. Im assuming under fan ownership you can only spend what we generate, and im not sure that would meet with fans expectations. We certainly wont be able to change managers and sign the amount of players we sign under fan ownership. Now the argument is that under a new regime we would appoint better and wouldnt find ourselves in that position, yes this may be true but we cant guarantee that? And i would suggest that the current owner has tried to rectify that particular problem by appointing LD?

:agree: I agree with all that, i would say regarding your last point its a bit of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted though.

[Gordy M]

:agree: I agree with all that, i would say regarding your last point its a bit of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted though.
Haha yeh quite possibly!!

[ozhibs]

In Scotland, arguably, yes. I would have thought that that was fairly obvious. I don't like it any more than you do.

But you should rather be looking at Rangers and Celtic as a partnership, each partner feeding off the other. Since Celtic crawled out of the swamp in 1888, the Old Firm have used sectarianism and bigotry to stoke up business for themselves to the point where no other teams can realistically compete within Scotland.

Their problem now is that their dominance in Scotland has ebecome meaningless in all but one way - they exploit that dominance as a way into European competition, specifically, the Champions' League. As long as the SPFL has enough residual status within UEFA to warrant 2 Champions' League places, the OF have what they want - a subservient League that allows them to manipulate the finances of sponsorship and advertising to allow them to compete in Europe. But their constant domination, and their increasingly poor performances in Europe, mean that the SPFL will very soon be given only ONE CL place. When that happens, the OF will find themselves hit by the same problems that have affected other Scottish clubs for years - only one of them will have access to CL money. The other will find it impossible to compete in either the CL or the UEFA League at the level expected by their grandiose and intolerant fans, and THEN the smelly stuff will collide with the airconditioning and no mistake.

To satisfy the grandiosity of their mirror-image bigot fans, BOTH Celtic and The Rangers need to be competing reasonably successfully in Europe. When this becomes impossible - and it will, sooner or later, unless the long-term decline of the SPL/SPFL/whatever it's calling itself 10 years from now is halted. And that can only be done if the OF act to strengthen their rivals in the Premiership - and thereby strengthen the Premiership itself) by voluntarily sacrificing their short-term interests and sharing financial and playing resources with the others.

(As if THAT's likely to happen any time soon. :rolleyes:)



No, it doesn't. A business exists to make a profit, thereby providing a dividend for its shareholders. A football club exists to put a successful and attractive team on the pitch, thereby satisfying its supporters and attracting others to come along to its games. This in turn increases the club's turnover, allowing for an increased salary-budget for the players, which in turn allows the club to sign up better players than they already have.

Which means a better team on the field, more paying spectators, a bigger budget, and therefore even better players.

The supporters, who may not own shares in the club, are nevertheless stakeholders in the club. Anyone who has been an ST holder every season since STF took over will have spent a great deal of money on the club - if you take a rough estimate of say, £200 as the price of an ST (which I would guess to be on the low side), such a supporter will have given the club £10,000 over the past quarter-century. This isn't to mention the money spent on replica kit, club-marked merchandise, food and drink, and so on. And if that supporter has, say, two kids ...

Hibs have assumed that if I am a genuine Hibs supporter, I will pay my money either for an ST or at the gate matchday by match day. They expect me to buy the kit and the merchandise, not because it's better than any other club's kit and merchandise, but because it HIBS kit and merchandise. And they also assume that they can change the look and cut of the kit, and the range of merchandise available, without ever actually doing any research into what I would really like to buy in suppoort of my club.

It's a bit like those "spiritual" people you meet at airports, who make you a "gift" of a book, then cut up rough if you don't show your gratitude by giving them a hefty donation for their cult funds.

I don't want to buy an all-green shirt with the Hibs badge on it. I want to buy a green shirt with white sleeves with the badge on it, and maybe even a big number "5" and "Big Bad John" blazoned across the back, or whatever, but I'm not going to buy something that I don't recognise as meeting my expectations of what a Hibs shirt looks like. Not ever. Especially when it looks like a Plymouth Argyle training top from 1993. Or something.

That's just one example - Tesco can get away with changing its product-line without consulting me. Hibs can't, because they're a football club, not a supermarket chain. There has to be more consultation, more intimacy, more communication, or eventually, I get tired of being taken for granted, or looked on as the not-sufficiently-grateful recipient of STF's charity, and I go somehwere else to amuse myself.

Like the Speedway. Or the cinema. Or a weekend trip to Milan to take in a performance of "Tosca" at La Scala on the Saturday evening and the Milan derby at the San Siro on the Sunday afternoon. Which would be the weekend of a lifetime and wouldn't necessarily cost me so much more than an ST for Easter Road.

Bottom line (see what I did there? :devil:) - if Hibs are a business, I'm free to walk away and take my custom and money elsewhere.

If I'm expected to show loyalty and support for "my" team, then the people running it need to start to work a lot harder to meet me and my fellow-fans at least half-way. Not just assume I'll keep putting my hand deep into my pocket regardless of how big a mess they make of things.



You might say that that was simply showing flexibility and running the club in a business-like manner?

Football clubs in Scotland, especially the smaller-to medium-sized clubs like St Mirren and Hibs, are going to have to change in big ways to keep going as halfway respectable clubs.


Excellent post Doddie now if someone at ER would read and understand it.