Mikey Stewart on Sportsound

[.Sean.]

He's absolutely spot on. Well said. Scathing towards Butcher and it's refreshing to hear some honesty on the show.

Embarrassing how far up Butcher's arse Chick Young is. Fud.

Got it on Sky 0116 the now.

[Elephant Stone]

He's another expert who said we needed to get rid of Fenlon when we were mid table. Keep the insight coming, Mikey.

[B.H.F.C]

He's absolutely spot on. Well said. Scathing towards Butcher and it's refreshing to hear some honesty on the show.

Embarrassing how far up Butcher's arse Chick Young is. Fud.

Got it on Sky 0116 the now.

Spot on. Chick Young and Butcher are both dinosaurs in their respective fields.

Michael Stewart talks a lot of sense.

[Sir David Gray]

He's absolutely spot on. Well said. Scathing towards Butcher and it's refreshing to hear some honesty on the show.

Embarrassing how far up Butcher's arse Chick Young is. Fud.

Got it on Sky 0116 the now.

Cheers for this.

Just turned it over and the programme synopsis is "Rob MacLean examines the reaction to Celtic manager Neil Lennon's departure from the club."

Why would something that happened almost 3 weeks ago be the main talking point? :confused:

[BoltonHibee]

He's another expert who said we needed to get rid of Fenlon when we were mid table. Keep the insight coming, Mikey.

He was right, we did need to get rid of Fenlon. Stewart wasnt the one that appointed TB though was he?

[TowerHibs]

He's absolutely spot on. Well said. Scathing towards Butcher and it's refreshing to hear some honesty on the show.

Embarrassing how far up Butcher's arse Chick Young is. Fud.

Got it on Sky 0116 the now.

got to agree. Journos trying to sook up to Butcher but when ex players are saying the dynamics and strength in any changing room comes from the manager.

For Butcher to come in and tell alot of players they are not good enough before realising he might need them is criminal management.

Oofftt - "Archaic mentality is destroying players, Alex Harris looks like he cant kick a ball but now looks shattered"

[Tyler Durden]

He's another expert who said we needed to get rid of Fenlon when we were mid table. Keep the insight coming, Mikey.

Yeah, he was spot on then too.

[Sir David Gray]

Ben Williams isn't pulling any punches on Sportsound at the moment.

[Del Boy]

Mikey Stewart is the best pundit on the radio.

[AlbertK86]

Ben Williams isn't pulling any punches on Sportsound at the moment.

What did he say

[BarneyK]

Ben Williams isn't pulling any punches on Sportsound at the moment.

What did he say?

[Elephant Stone]

Yeah, he was spot on then too.

How did you work that one out? If he'd stayed for the season his contract would be finished now anyway, we'd have been able to decide if we wanted to keep him or not while actually still being in the Premiership, fancy that eh?

[.Sean.]

What did he say
Butcher was right to go.

[ManBearPig]

Ben Williams isn't pulling any punches on Sportsound at the moment.

really whats he Said?

[500miles]

He was right, we did need to get rid of Fenlon. Stewart wasnt the one that appointed TB though was he?

No, we didn't. We were sitting mid table, with our creative players nearly back from injury, with Pat due for renewal, or not, in the summer transfer window. There was no panic, no crisis, and the potential for an upturn in our fortunes with Cairney, Harris back and Stanton fit after being praised by Fenlon, but injured.


What we did need, was to show patience.

[Unseen work]

Can see Stewart making a good manager one day

[.Sean.]

Stewart tipping Murray and Boozy. Yes please.

[ManBearPig]

No, we didn't. We were sitting mid table, with our creative players nearly back from injury, with Pat due for renewal, or not, in the summer transfer window. There was no panic, no crisis, and the potential for an upturn in our fortunes with Cairney, Harris back and Stanton fit after being praised by Fenlon, but injured.


What we did need, was to show patience.

I liked pat but lets not forget we didnt get rid. he left.

[TowerHibs]

What did he say?

"training was very drilled and authoritarian approach. Constantly telling players what they can't do and eventually the players are worn down. They do not go out to nt try, players give 100% effort but if manager is constantly telling you that you are not good enough then it affects performance.

Changing room found it bizarre at his approach to experiened players (Kev Thomson) and this created an unhappy changing room.

were sent out to win against Hamilton nd players let the club down. However months of Butcher led to zero confidence in the changing room

Right decision to sack butcher"

[Sir David Gray]

What did he say?

Only caught the last couple of minutes of his interview after reading this thread on here but basically talking about how little he thinks of Butcher and his methods.

[WhileTheChief..]

Agree with a lot of what he said but he had a go at Hibs about the timing saying that Butcher shouldn't have been allowed to get rid of all the players if we were going to sack him. Can't agree with that.

They were loanees, youngsters or out of contract and were always going to leave. He just used it as an excuse to kick Hibs again, something he always does.

So he might talk sense sometimes and be a decent pundit but he's still a Hearts fud.

[500miles]

I liked pat but lets not forget we didnt get rid. he left.

After the fans stood outside ER when Hearts fluked a 1-0 win and slaughtered the players. Folk were actually screaming at and abusing Stevenson with his wife. He was forced to take himself out of the situation to protect the players.

If Fenlon said "forgive and forget" and turned back up at ER tomorrow, I'd be delighted.

[Green Cabbage 7]

No, we didn't. We were sitting mid table, with our creative players nearly back from injury, with Pat due for renewal, or not, in the summer transfer window. There was no panic, no crisis, and the potential for an upturn in our fortunes with Cairney, Harris back and Stanton fit after being praised by Fenlon, but injured.


What we did need, was to show patience.

Yeah I think your right, but only we were only 6 points from 11 as the league was very tight, so it could well have happened anyway, as we were playing just as bad.

[Gettin' Auld]

Well that sure was worth listening too. Butcher came under fire from all sides.

[seanshow]

Well that sure was worth listening too. Butcher came under fire from all sides.




Yip an hour exclusively about Hibs it was very good, bravo to Sportsound for once :)

The show will be available as a podcast from this page http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot usually by midnight.

[500miles]

Yeah I think your right, but only we were only 6 points from 11 as the league was very tight, so it could well have happened anyway, as we were playing just as bad.

We were about the same from 2nd. And, like I said, that was with so many creative players missing.

[kaimendhibs]

Mikey Stewart came over very well in my opinion. Decent pundit and seemed more passionate absolute hibs than a lot of the players who helped relegate us. Was right about fenlon and butcher going, again, in my opinion


Sent from my iphone

[Dashing Bob S]

Mikey Stewart is a sound chap who invariably talks sense.


Oh, and THAT goal in the cup v A'deen...

[AlbertK86]

"training was very drilled and authoritarian approach. Constantly telling players what they can't do and eventually the players are worn down. They do not go out to nt try, players give 100% effort but if manager is constantly telling you that you are not good enough then it affects performance. Changing room found it bizarre at his approach to experiened players (Kev Thomson) and this created an unhappy changing room. were sent out to win against Hamilton nd players let the club down. However months of Butcher led to zero confidence in the changing room Right decision to sack butcher"

Well confirms most of the rumours that have been flying about regarding losing the dressing room

However Butcher was right regarding certain players and completely wrong re others.... Fatal error telling them early doors they were getting emptied

Has cost us our position in top league as have the players and for that he had to go

Still believe we need to clear the decks of the playing pool and only keep Forster, Stanton, Harris and Cummings from last seasons 1st team squad

Difficulty is the timescale for getting others in but I'm sure it can be done

Get rid of KING ROD

Get in a new management team and the wind has blown through to bring a fresh start



GGTTH

[WhileTheChief..]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhC31VUOQeY

[Tyler Durden]

After the fans stood outside ER when Hearts fluked a 1-0 win and slaughtered the players. Folk were actually screaming at and abusing Stevenson with his wife. He was forced to take himself out of the situation to protect the players.

If Fenlon said "forgive and forget" and turned back up at ER tomorrow, I'd be delighted.

Fenlon actually offered to quit before the Hearts game. But good try to blame fans.

[Tyler Durden]

How did you work that one out? If he'd stayed for the season his contract would be finished now anyway, we'd have been able to decide if we wanted to keep him or not while actually still being in the Premiership, fancy that eh?

Fenlon quit. Even he realised it was time to go. I don't think anyone is suggesting we would have been relegated had Fenlon stayed but it was absolutely time for him to leave.

[Alfred E Newman]

Mikey Stewart came over very well in my opinion. Decent pundit and seemed more passionate absolute hibs than a lot of the players who helped relegate us. Was right about fenlon and butcher going, again, in my opinion


Sent from my iphone

Stewart did come over well but the most revealing stuff came from Ben Williams. He very articulately underlined all the suspicions we had about the goings on behind the scenes. It wasn't bitter anti Butcher stuff but frank talk explaining how Butcher came in and tried to impose his way of playing on players who could not play that style of game. Also how ,after a few games ,how other teams sussed out his game plan and just sat back to mop up the long balls making it almost impossible for Hibs to score.
Well worth a listen on podcast.

[500miles]

Fenlon actually offered to quit before the Hearts game. But good try to blame fans.

But he didn't actually head for the door until after the Aberdeen game. And it wasn't the first "protest" against Fenlon. It was the fans fault.

[Green Cabbage 7]

We were about the same from 2nd. And, like I said, that was with so many creative players missing.

Yes that came back and did'nt perform

[Gordy M]

Is ben williams actually away from hibs? Did he mention staying at all now that TB is away?

[Sir David Gray]

Is ben williams actually away from hibs? Did he mention staying at all now that TB is away?

He's a free agent.

His contract with Hibs ended at the end of the season.

[Gordy M]

He's a free agent.

His contract with Hibs ended at the end of the season.
Cheers!:aok:

[MWHIBBIES]

He was right, we did need to get rid of Fenlon. Stewart wasnt the one that appointed TB though was he?No we didn't. We should have left it until now when his contract ran out, we'd still be an SPL team and would have saved a lot of money without the Butcher debacle.

[semaj64]

Stewart did come over well but the most revealing stuff came from Ben Williams. He very articulately underlined all the suspicions we had about the goings on behind the scenes. It wasn't bitter anti Butcher stuff but frank talk explaining how Butcher came in and tried to impose his way of playing on players who could not play that style of game. Also how ,after a few games ,how other teams sussed out his game plan and just sat back to mop up the long balls making it almost impossible for Hibs to score.
Well worth a listen on podcast.

Agree thought Ben came across very well, why Butcher could not have seen the same but then that's why he has gone.

[easty]

But he didn't actually head for the door until after the Aberdeen game. And it wasn't the first "protest" against Fenlon. It was the fans fault.

**** off.

He is no longer manager of Hibs because he wasn't up to the job. Terry Butcher may have been in charge when we were actually relegated, but Pat played his own part in that story. A ****ing man who is to bame for our 5-1 loss to that shower of *******s in the biggest game we've been in my lifetime. A man who gave us our record defeat against Malmo.

The fans fault? **** right off.

[Tyler Durden]

But he didn't actually head for the door until after the Aberdeen game. And it wasn't the first "protest" against Fenlon. It was the fans fault.

The Aberdeen game was before the derby.

Your final sentence isn't really worth dignifying with a response

[emerald green]

"training was very drilled and authoritarian approach. Constantly telling players what they can't do and eventually the players are worn down. They do not go out to nt try, players give 100% effort but if manager is constantly telling you that you are not good enough then it affects performance.

Changing room found it bizarre at his approach to experiened players (Kev Thomson) and this created an unhappy changing room.

were sent out to win against Hamilton nd players let the club down. However months of Butcher led to zero confidence in the changing room

Right decision to sack butcher"

The evidence against Butcher is absolutely overwhelming. Here's some Butcher facts, easily available on the internet:

Sacked at Coventry.

Sacked at Sunderland.

Sacked at Sydney FC after 8 months .

Left Brentford after 8 months after a run of 5 wins in 23 matches (not sure if he was sacked there).

Butcher still harboured resentment for Maradona's "hand of god" goal from 22 years earlier. Says a lot about TB I think. After he called Maradona a cheat and a liar (when he was Burley's assistant with Scotland), Maradona said "who is Butcher?". :faf:

January 2009 - Butcher appointed manager of ICT. May 2009 - ICT relegated. 2009/10 - ICT promoted.

Nov 2013 - Butcher appointed Hibs manager. May 2014 - Hibs relegated after losing a 2 leg play-off against lower league Hamilton, and the worst run of results in living memory at the club. 10/06/2014 - Butcher sacked again.

Yet, despite all this, some on these threads think he should not have been sacked.

I admit I thought/hoped he would be a good appointment, but like many others I based that on what he achieved at a smaller club, i.e. ICT.

Petrie though, should have done his homework. Did he make this disastrous appointment based on what Butcher done at ICT alone?

[Nomeancity]

**** off.

He is no longer manager of Hibs because he wasn't up to the job. Terry Butcher may have been in charge when we were actually relegated, but Pat played his own part in that story. A ****ing man who is to bame for our 5-1 loss to that shower of *******s in the biggest game we've been in my lifetime. A man who gave us our record defeat against Malmo.

The fans fault? **** right off.

The biggest game you have been to in your life was the Hamilton home game. Do not underestimate how big a game that was. If in 15 yrs we are wallowing in the 1st division you might just appreciate that.

[500miles]

Yes that came back and did'nt perform

A lot of players didn't perform for Butcher that had previously performed for Fenlon.

[davieh]

After the fans stood outside ER when Hearts fluked a 1-0 win and slaughtered the players. Folk were actually screaming at and abusing Stevenson with his wife. He was forced to take himself out of the situation to protect the players.

If Fenlon said "forgive and forget" and turned back up at ER tomorrow, I'd be delighted.

I can't believe people seeing Fenlon as the answer after a few months ...he was hopeless and just cause TB turned out even worse doesn't make Fenlon any better...

[Thecat23]

He's another expert who said we needed to get rid of Fenlon when we were mid table. Keep the insight coming, Mikey.

Jeezo, fenlon's time was up. The man said so himself! Hindsight is a wonderful thing but no danger would anyone think TB would take us down. Fenlon's results and football was rotten too. I think folk forget that.

Stewart is spot on and until we actually appoint a good manager then we will continue to fail. And guess who appoints them?!!!!

[Gordy M]

Jeezo, fenlon's time was up. The man said so himself! Hindsight is a wonderful thing but no danger would anyone think TB would take us down. Fenlon's results and football was rotten too. I think folk forget that.

Stewart is spot on and until we actually appoint a good manager then we will continue to fail. And guess who appoints them?!!!!
Tc you seem like a pretty itk guy, do you genuinely think RP has made this decision to sack TB and will appoint the new man or do you think this has been LDs doing and she will be doing the hiring?

[Scouse Hibee]

I like Mikey Stewart, talks a lot of sense and often stops to talk footy when he passes my work.

[500miles]

**** off.

He is no longer manager of Hibs because he wasn't up to the job. Terry Butcher may have been in charge when we were actually relegated, but Pat played his own part in that story. A ****ing man who is to bame for our 5-1 loss to that shower of *******s in the biggest game we've been in my lifetime. A man who gave us our record defeat against Malmo.

The fans fault? **** right off.

The team in the 5-1 game wasn't good enough to win. The players with the ability were billy big-times, and there were some who just weren't good enough. Furthermore, we wouldn't have been beaten 5-1 had it not been for the blatant cheating from Thomson. I was over it by the time I got off the bus.

As for the result against Malmo, so what? Our best team in a generation, with Brown, Riordan, Thomson, etc., got turned over by Dnipro. We were chasing a 2 goal deficit and got punished for chasing the scoreline, big deal. No team are too big to get the odd redder.

Much like Mixu, the fans turned on someone who was learning, turning the tide of a mess created by the previous management, and we shot ourselves in the foot. Whoever comes in next needs more patience and a bit of a spine from the support.

[Thecat23]

Holy ****, reading through this folk saying Fenlon was fine. People have short memories. Do you guys who wanted Fenlon to stay go to games? The football was just as bad but instead of losing most we'd draw the odd game with ZERO shots on goal.

Would we still be a Prem side? Who the **** knows! Not one person can't say yes for sure just as I can't say no we wouldn't. He had his time it was terrible, we brought in Butcher and it didn't work.

The man to blame is still at hibs but it won't shock me if the same folk who liked Pat want Rod to stay.

[Green Cabbage 7]

A lot of players didn't perform for Butcher that had previously performed for Fenlon.

Is that why we wanted him out, I'm lost as I seem to remember on here that the football was eye bleeding, maybe worse under butcher mind you, but believe me not that much.

[Thecat23]

Tc you seem like a pretty itk guy, do you genuinely think RP has made this decision to sack TB and will appoint the new man or do you think this has been LDs doing and she will be doing the hiring?

Everyone knows my thoughts on Petrie. But I can't honestly say who fired him. I think personally it would be Rod but I've a feeling LD will be the one to appoint a new manager. She will run it by the board as would Rod prob have. But I'm hopeful she gets to pick.

[scoopyboy]

Holy ****, reading through this folk saying Fenlon was fine. People have short memories. Do you guys who wanted Fenlon to stay go to games? The football was just as bad but instead of losing most we'd draw the odd game with ZERO shots on goal.

Would we still be a Prem side? Who the **** knows! Not one person can't say yes for sure just as I can't say no we wouldn't. He had his time it was terrible, we brought in Butcher and it didn't work.

The man to blame is still at hibs but it won't shock me if the same folk who liked Pat want Rod to stay.

The ones that are now praising Fenlon are incredible mate.

Question - would they therefore want him back if he was so good????

I rest my case.

[J-C]

For all those that thought Thompson and McPake were trouble makers, Williams interview tells you this was not the case and the management were the ones who split the dressing room.

[500miles]

Holy ****, reading through this folk saying Fenlon was fine. People have short memories. Do you guys who wanted Fenlon to stay go to games? The football was just as bad but instead of losing most we'd draw the odd game with ZERO shots on goal.

Would we still be a Prem side? Who the **** knows! Not one person can't say yes for sure just as I can't say no we wouldn't. He had his time it was terrible, we brought in Butcher and it didn't work.

The man to blame is still at hibs but it won't shock me if the same folk who liked Pat want Rod to stay.

Fenlon had some crap games, but there were extenuating circumstances in a number of them. If we would have stuck with Pat, we wouldn't have been relegated, and a new manager could have came in with the luxury of a full closed season. The fact that we DID get relegated, with the fans favorite as manager, proves that it WAS the wrong time to let Pat leave. He should have been kept on until the end of the season, and his time at the club reviewed then.

[The Modfather]

We were about the same from 2nd. And, like I said, that was with so many creative players missing.

Who are these "creative" payers you keep referring to?

Harris - I think he'll still come good but has delivered very little in his short career outwith the semi final.
Zoubir - Did nothing for us
Stanton - Looks a player but barely featured under Fenlon and when he did it was normally out wide
Cairney - fat, slow and if a defender kept his legs closed his one trick was nullified

I'm literally struggling to think who else might be classed "creative".

Fenlons hallmark was certainly not creativity.

[Gordy M]

Everyone knows my thoughts on Petrie. But I can't honestly say who fired him. I think personally it would be Rod but I've a feeling LD will be the one to appoint a new manager. She will run it by the board as would Rod prob have. But I'm hopeful she gets to pick.
Fair enough mate, i just want us to crack on with the season, and im happy if LD is allowed to get on with things with no interference. I think RP should go as he is alienating a large part of the support but we need to get behind the team in spite of that. I hope LD gets a 'free run' at this season and its a good one. Cheers.

[Thecat23]

The ones that are now praising Fenlon are incredible mate.

Question - would they therefore want him back if he was so good????

I rest my case.

Exactly! Honest I can't believe what I'm reading here.

[500miles]

Is that why we wanted him out, I'm lost as I seem to remember on here that the football was eye bleeding, maybe worse under butcher mind you, but believe me not that much.

We didn't play a lot of great football at the start of the season, but I've already pointed out, the ball players like Harris, Cairney and Stanton were injured. It was unfortunate for all three of them to be out at once, as the former two showed real ability under Pat, and Stanton was waiting on his opportunity to break through. We won enough games to keep us as close to 2nd as 11th though, and that is a damn sight better than we ended up.

[Thecat23]

Fair enough mate, i just want us to crack on with the season, and im happy if LD is allowed to get on with things with no interference. I think RP should go as he is alienating a large part of the support but we need to get behind the team in spite of that. I hope LD gets a 'free run' at this season and its a good one. Cheers.

Same here mate, I bought my season ticket and will fully back the team and new manager. The man that is causing this animosity is still here. He goes and we can all move forward as one IMO.

[Thecat23]

Fenlon had some crap games, but there were extenuating circumstances in a number of them. If we would have stuck with Pat, we wouldn't have been relegated, and a new manager could have came in with the luxury of a full closed season. The fact that we DID get relegated, with the fans favorite as manager, proves that it WAS the wrong time to let Pat leave. He should have been kept on until the end of the season, and his time at the club reviewed then.

It wasn't the wrong time to let Pat leave it was the wrong man who took over from him. Simples!

[SunshineOnLeith]

Williams' comments fit with the change in his body language on the pitch from the start to the end of the season.

Can't remember us ever conceding a goal under Fenlon when he wouldn't be screaming at whichever defender was at fault, there was clearly a sense of collective responsibility at the back. By the end of the season under Butcher he was just picking it out and punting it back up the park. Not saying the defence didn't care, but they looked like they had no pride or belief that they were better than they were playing.

Fenlon's position was made untenable by the fans and frankly nobody could foresee Butcher being quite so awful, but I really never understood the vitriolic anger towards, and protests about, Fenlon.

The Scottish media didn't like him because he didn't 'play the game' and frankly too many of our fans (not to single out Hibs fans, can say the same for the wider populace) allow their opinions and and knowledge to be shaped by what they read in The Sun or The Daily Record.

[Hibbyradge]

Fair enough mate, i just want us to crack on with the season, and im happy if LD is allowed to get on with things with no interference. I think RP should go as he is alienating a large part of the support but we need to get behind the team in spite of that. I hope LD gets a 'free run' at this season and its a good one. Cheers.

The board sacked Butcher.

Petrie and Dempster met him yesterday and reported back to the board today when the decision was made.

[Stevie Reid]

Holy ****, reading through this folk saying Fenlon was fine. People have short memories. Do you guys who wanted Fenlon to stay go to games? The football was just as bad but instead of losing most we'd draw the odd game with ZERO shots on goal.

Would we still be a Prem side? Who the **** knows! Not one person can't say yes for sure just as I can't say no we wouldn't. He had his time it was terrible, we brought in Butcher and it didn't work.

The man to blame is still at hibs but it won't shock me if the same folk who liked Pat want Rod to stay.

Football was poor in the latter days under Pat, sterile possession and no pace and incision - but TB had it the worst ever, embarrassing stuff.

Relegation didn't even cross our minds since we beat Dunfermline 4-0 in 2012, and it's ridiculous to suggest that we may have been relegated under Fenlon. People had had enough because we weren't progressing up the league quick enough - no one was looking down.

[Thecat23]

Football was poor in the latter days under Pat, sterile possession and no pace and incision - but TB had it the worst ever, embarrassing stuff.

Relegation didn't even cross our minds since we beat Dunfermline 4-0 in 2012, and it's ridiculous to suggest that we may have been relegated under Fenlon. People had had enough because we weren't progressing up the league quick enough - no one was looking down.

How was it ridiculous though? Fenlon's team didn't have us shooting. So the way things were going was downwards. Again you nor anyone else can say 100% we would not be down. I can't say we would for defo. But we were dropping like a stone under him.

[Gordy M]

The board sacked Butcher.

Petrie and Dempster met him yesterday and reported back to the board today when the decision was made.
Yep i understand that mate, but surely someone had bring it to the table? And i would be a lot happier if it was Dempster and not RP.

[Greenblood70]

The ones that are now praising Fenlon are incredible mate.

Question - would they therefore want him back if he was so good????

I rest my case.

It boils made pish that folk think Fenlon was good enough for our club. It's Petrie's greatest success that he has eroded some fans expectations to a level where they accept top 6 or mid table mediocrity as some high watermark of achievement. We need to be more demanding as fans, not less , we have supported this club in numbers throughout some of the most horrendous results, performances and outright humiliations in our long history. Yet we still have some saying we should show patience. I ****ing despair!

Butcher, Fenlon, Calderwood, what a grim few years it's been.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Stevie Reid]

How was it ridiculous though? Fenlon's team didn't have us shooting. So the way things were going was downwards. Again you nor anyone else can say 100% we would not be down. I can't say we would for defo. But we were dropping like a stone under him.

We weren't. There's not a single way you can justify the statement that we were dropping like a stone.

He had to go because he lost too much of the support after another bad defeat to Hearts, quickly after the league defeat to them and the Malmo result - allied to the fact that the football was turning people away in droves.

We were an average SPL team under Fenlon, not even outside contenders for relegation. Fenlon gained us 43% of our league points and 50% of our wins in his 11 matches. No basis at all to think we were in trouble in the league.

[GoldenMeerkat]

Just listened to the podcast and it was refreshing to hear a pundit talk with so much passion and sense.

[HibbyKeith]

Just listened to the podcast and it was refreshing to hear a pundit talk with so much passion and sense.

you have a link to the podcast mate?

[500miles]

We weren't. There's not a single way you can justify the statement that we were dropping like a stone.

He had to go because he lost too much of the support after another bad defeat to Hearts, quickly after the league defeat to them and the Malmo result - allied to the fact that the football was turning people away in droves.

We were an average SPL team under Fenlon, not even outside contenders for relegation. Fenlon gained us 43% of our league points and 50% of our wins in his 11 matches. No basis at all to think we were in trouble in the league.

I agree that Fenlon may not have stood up to a review at the end of the season. But getting rid of a manager mid-season can cause problems, is bad for morale when he is popular with the players like Fenlon seemed to be, and was an entirely unnecessary risk. I am under no illusions, Fenlon was never going to take the Champion's League by storm, but he was a safe pair of hands until there was a good time for someone else to take over.

Who knows? If Fenlon had stayed until the summer and Butcher had been allowed to come in and clear out without taking a hit at the end of the season, then he may have been successful because he could get the nucleus of his own squad in to play his football.

[GoldenMeerkat]

you have a link to the podcast mate?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot

[nribs]

Why all this talk about Fenlon being sacked ? I was positive it was his decision to leave?

[HibbyKeith]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot

Cheers :aok:

[Stevie Reid]

I agree that Fenlon may not have stood up to a review at the end of the season. But getting rid of a manager mid-season can cause problems, is bad for morale when he is popular with the players like Fenlon seemed to be, and was an entirely unnecessary risk. I am under no illusions, Fenlon was never going to take the Champion's League by storm, but he was a safe pair of hands until there was a good time for someone else to take over.

Who knows? If Fenlon had stayed until the summer and Butcher had been allowed to come in and clear out without taking a hit at the end of the season, then he may have been successful because he could get the nucleus of his own squad in to play his football.

I defended Pat for as long as I could, but circumstances at the time meant it would have been very difficult for him to continue after that Hearts defeat.

However, I said when he went that I'd always be grateful for the job he did for us, and I stand by that. Miles better than the manager that he succeeded, and the one that followed him.

[Emerald]

Williams' comments fit with the change in his body language on the pitch from the start to the end of the season.

Can't remember us ever conceding a goal under Fenlon when he wouldn't be screaming at whichever defender was at fault, there was clearly a sense of collective responsibility at the back. By the end of the season under Butcher he was just picking it out and punting it back up the park. Not saying the defence didn't care, but they looked like they had no pride or belief that they were better than they were playing.

Fenlon's position was made untenable by the fans and frankly nobody could foresee Butcher being quite so awful, but I really never understood the vitriolic anger towards, and protests about, Fenlon.

The Scottish media didn't like him because he didn't 'play the game' and frankly too many of our fans (not to single out Hibs fans, can say the same for the wider populace) allow their opinions and and knowledge to be shaped by what they read in The Sun or The Daily Record.

I had to endure the rotten sterile football Fenlon subjected us to as a season ticket holder and has nothing to do with the media. Fenlon was only ever going to make us mediocre boring also rans. No one could have foreseen where Butcher took us though albeit wiith the team Fenlon put together. They have both gone so lets move on and together back the new manager whoever that may be.

[blackpoolhibs]

The evidence against Butcher is absolutely overwhelming. Here's some Butcher facts, easily available on the internet:

Sacked at Coventry.

Sacked at Sunderland.

Sacked at Sydney FC after 8 months .

Left Brentford after 8 months after a run of 5 wins in 23 matches (not sure if he was sacked there).

Butcher still harboured resentment for Maradona's "hand of god" goal from 22 years earlier. Says a lot about TB I think. After he called Maradona a cheat and a liar (when he was Burley's assistant with Scotland), Maradona said "who is Butcher?". :faf:

January 2009 - Butcher appointed manager of ICT. May 2009 - ICT relegated. 2009/10 - ICT promoted.

Nov 2013 - Butcher appointed Hibs manager. May 2014 - Hibs relegated after losing a 2 leg play-off against lower league Hamilton, and the worst run of results in living memory at the club. 10/06/2014 - Butcher sacked again.

Yet, despite all this, some on these threads think he should not have been sacked.

I admit I thought/hoped he would be a good appointment, but like many others I based that on what he achieved at a smaller club, i.e. ICT.

Petrie though, should have done his homework. Did he make this disastrous appointment based on what Butcher done at ICT alone?

Why have you posted all the bad stuff, don't you know we are only supposed to concentrate on the 18 months he did anything decent?

[500miles]

I defended Pat for as long as I could, but circumstances at the time meant it would have been very difficult for him to continue after that Hearts defeat.

However, I said when he went that I'd always be grateful for the job he did for us, and I stand by that. Miles better than the manager that he succeeded, and the one that followed him.

The circumstances were that the fans protested him. The fans pressured Pat into leave, and made it clear to the Board that TB was wanted as his replacement. However, folk get awfy upset when it is suggested that there may be some blame due to those that participated in the above.

[eggbamyasi]

Exactly! Honest I can't believe what I'm reading here.

Totally agree ! How easily it's forgotten . Been Finding it really hard not to copy and paste some comments people on this thread and a few others in last couple of weeks have said when the get fenlon out campaign was in full flow .

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[Thecat23]

The circumstances were that the fans protested him. The fans pressured Pat into leave, and made it clear to the Board that TB was wanted as his replacement. However, folk get awfy upset when it is suggested that there may be some blame due to those that participated in the above.

Heard it all now. Us fans don't sack or appoint managers. Petrie does that! Fans were happy TB arrived and it never worked simple as that.

[Crab apple]

**** off.

He is no longer manager of Hibs because he wasn't up to the job. Terry Butcher may have been in charge when we were actually relegated, but Pat played his own part in that story. A ****ing man who is to bame for our 5-1 loss to that shower of *******s in the biggest game we've been in my lifetime. A man who gave us our record defeat against Malmo.

The fans fault? **** right off.

You're wasting your time easty. He won't accept Fenlon had any role in our current demise. Fenlon should have been fired after the ****bos cup final. No excuses. That was another of Petrie's mistakes. Appointing Butcher and appointing him when he did were the next two mistakes.

[Thecat23]

Totally agree ! How easily it's forgotten . Been Finding it really hard not to copy and paste some comments people on this thread and a few others in last couple of weeks have said when the get fenlon out campaign was in full flow .

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Mate you should because it's getting beyond a joke. Fenlons time was up if folk still don't see that then I worry for them I really do.

[500miles]

Heard it all now. Us fans don't sack or appoint managers. Petrie does that! Fans were happy TB arrived and it never worked simple as that.

So the Board shouldn't respond to what the fans want?

Petrie should stay then, eh?

[davidw]

Yip an hour exclusively about Hibs it was very good, bravo to Sportsound for once :)

The show will be available as a podcast from this page http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot usually by midnight.

Available there now. (Cheers)

[Thecat23]

So the Board shouldn't respond to what the fans want?

Petrie should stay then, eh?

What you on about?

No they shouldn't they should bring in what's best for Hibernian Football club. If Petrie picked his managers because of us then he's failed AGAIN!

Petrie should leave simple. Do you think he should stay or go?

[SunshineOnLeith]

I had to endure the rotten sterile football Fenlon subjected us to as a season ticket holder and has nothing to do with the media. Fenlon was only ever going to make us mediocre boring also rans. No one could have foreseen where Butcher took us though albeit wiith the team Fenlon put together. They have both gone so lets move on and together back the new manager whoever that may be.

I agree but from your post it doesn't sound like you were one of the baying mob outside the West Stand calling for his head.

Fenlon would, in all probability, not had his contract renewed in the summer unless we seriously improved once players were back from injury. Rightly so. Mind you, we'd probably have appointed Butcher in the summer and had to endure 2014/15 with him at the helm so its all much of a muchness! :tee hee:

[Thecat23]

We weren't. There's not a single way you can justify the statement that we were dropping like a stone.

He had to go because he lost too much of the support after another bad defeat to Hearts, quickly after the league defeat to them and the Malmo result - allied to the fact that the football was turning people away in droves.

We were an average SPL team under Fenlon, not even outside contenders for relegation. Fenlon gained us 43% of our league points and 50% of our wins in his 11 matches. No basis at all to think we were in trouble in the league.

I can justify as we weren't scoring goals. It was early in the season when he left and no one knows how it would pan it. He's a ***** manager who was massively out his depth at Hibs. His Malmo disaster was breaking point for most. Even after the 1-5 and 0-3 finals were we just made up the numbers.

[Winston Ingram]

But he didn't actually head for the door until after the Aberdeen game. And it wasn't the first "protest" against Fenlon. It was the fans fault.

The guy admits he felt lost the dressing & resigns & it was the fans fault. Aye, ok.:rolleyes:

[WindyMiller]

Mikey Stewart is a sound chap who invariably talks sense.


Oh, and THAT goal in the cup v A'deen...

Came of his shin (imo),Bob.

[hibeesjoe]

"training was very drilled and authoritarian approach. Constantly telling players what they can't do and eventually the players are worn down. They do not go out to nt try, players give 100% effort but if manager is constantly telling you that you are not good enough then it affects performance.

Changing room found it bizarre at his approach to experiened players (Kev Thomson) and this created an unhappy changing room.

were sent out to win against Hamilton nd players let the club down. However months of Butcher led to zero confidence in the changing room

Right decision to sack butcher"

Williams can kiss my ass. They should have shown a bit of professional pride instead of blaming butcher for everything. They should all have risen above what butcher was saying and played to win for the fans. Talks cheap and although Williams is a good keeper he can't blame a team full of bottlers on the management.

[Emerald]

I agree but from your post it doesn't sound like you were one of the baying mob outside the West Stand calling for his head.

Fenlon would, in all probability, not had his contract renewed in the summer unless we seriously improved once players were back from injury. Rightly so. Mind you, we'd probably have appointed Butcher in the summer and had to endure 2014/15 with him at the helm so its all much of a muchness! :tee hee:

No i wasn't but I really wanted him to go. My ambition for Hibs is higher than fenlon could have achieved IMO. He was scared of losing goals and got everyone playing deep creating virtually no goal scoring chances. He relied on LG to do his magic and it worked. Play the same way minus Griffiths and the plan falls apart. Butcher inherited this impossible set up and then lost our most consistent defender that resulted in constant back four re-shuffles. There was no goals (Heff injury) in the team and the back four was a shambles.

I'm not defending butcher because he should have managed the situation better but that was the deck of cards left by Fenlon. Pat HAS to take a gread deal of the blame for the mess, although we would probably have stayed up, it would have been the same bottom six finish year in year out with him, he had to go.

[500miles]

What you on about?

No they shouldn't they should bring in what's best for Hibernian Football club. If Petrie picked his managers because of us then he's failed AGAIN!

Petrie should leave simple. Do you think he should stay or go?

Really? I don't care. I don't give it the weight that some people seem to. Dempster is here now. If Dempster find's Rod's presence there helpful in some sort of changeover role, or as an SFA contact, then that's fine. I do tire of people stamping feet and protesting the result of getting what they asked for. Pat spoke openly and generally quite favorably of the work that Rod does, and I'm more inclined to believe him about what Rod does than people who haven't been involved in the running of the team or club this millennium.

[Hibtastic]

I quite enjoyed the sportsound podcast in a perverse way. Stewart was spot on with what he said although I still think the players were a bunch of lightweights. The consensus seemed to be that Stuart McCall is a shoe-in for the job. Would be great if Boozy was involved in some shape or form too.

[Thecat23]

Really? I don't care. I don't give it the weight that some people seem to. Dempster is here now. If Dempster find's Rod's presence there helpful in some sort of changeover role, or as an SFA contact, then that's fine. I do tire of people stamping feet and protesting the result of getting what they asked for. Pat spoke openly and generally quite favorably of the work that Rod does, and I'm more inclined to believe him about what Rod does than people who haven't been involved in the running of the team or club this millennium.

That's fair enough. I've no issue with what you believe or don't believe. I think Fenlon was rotten and was long over due. I never protested myself but wanted both Fenlon and Butcher gone.

I want the best man possible for Hibs. If it's not a known name but someone who wins us the championship then great.

I don't mind either folk protesting for a better man than the two previous clowns in charge because they are the ones paying and deserve better. They care for the club as we do and see it as the best way to do it. He may well still be here if it wasn't for these guys so it's a huge well done from me.

[AlbertK86]

I quite enjoyed the sportsound podcast in a perverse way. Stewart was spot on with what he said although I still think the players were a bunch of lightweights. The consensus seemed to be that Stuart McCall is a shoe-in for the job. Would be great if Boozy was involved in some shape or form too.

Agree with each point in your post

[rcarter1]

Really? I don't care. I don't give it the weight that some people seem to. Dempster is here now. If Dempster find's Rod's presence there helpful in some sort of changeover role, or as an SFA contact, then that's fine. I do tire of people stamping feet and protesting the result of getting what they asked for. Pat spoke openly and generally quite favorably of the work that Rod does, and I'm more inclined to believe him about what Rod does than people who haven't been involved in the running of the team or club this millennium.

Agree.

[lEXO]

Really? I don't care. I don't give it the weight that some people seem to. Dempster is here now. If Dempster find's Rod's presence there helpful in some sort of changeover role, or as an SFA contact, then that's fine. I do tire of people stamping feet and protesting the result of getting what they asked for. Pat spoke openly and generally quite favorably of the work that Rod does, and I'm more inclined to believe him about what Rod does than people who haven't been involved in the running of the team or club this millennium.

Spot on for me......

[H13BYM]

Cant help thinking this "authoritarian approach" thats being banded about stems from Malpas's years of working under jovial Jim Mclean, and Butch to a degree under Souness, who were oldschool "hairdryer" type football managers. Far more intelligence required these days.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot

Interesting, good points made by Michael Stewart, Ben Williams, Simon Pia as for Chick Young what an arse.

[fife hfc]

Michael stewart talks too much sense for a jambo:greengrin I always find myself agreeing with him with his comments over our team. I thought williams was also good and never took it as an opportunity to slag Butcher. What I do not understand with Butcher is that he could not see the effect he was having on morale. Christ even fergie has admitted he could no longer manage the same way he did in the eighties.

[hibbymac]

Really? I don't care. I don't give it the weight that some people seem to. Dempster is here now. If Dempster find's Rod's presence there helpful in some sort of changeover role, or as an SFA contact, then that's fine. I do tire of people stamping feet and protesting the result of getting what they asked for. Pat spoke openly and generally quite favorably of the work that Rod does, and I'm more inclined to believe him about what Rod does than people who haven't been involved in the running of the team or club this millennium.

:agree:

[Cropley10]

Fat Penlon managed to lose two derbies against the Yams before he realised he had an unbalanced team that he couldn't get anything from. The best game of last season was the New Year Derby - our first full house - Butcher got a reaction from Fenlon's team and we loved it.

[Stevie Reid]

I can justify as we weren't scoring goals. It was early in the season when he left and no one knows how it would pan it. He's a ***** manager who was massively out his depth at Hibs. His Malmo disaster was breaking point for most. Even after the 1-5 and 0-3 finals were we just made up the numbers.

You can't justify the statement that we were dropping like a stone. You say you wanted him gone after 5-1, fair enough, many would agree with you - sacking him after the Celtic game would have been ridiculous, though the Malmo game was as close to a stand alone sackable result as you'll get. But we weren't dropping like a stone.

Last season under Fenlon we were P 44 W 17 D 12 L 15. Domestically this season under Fenlon we were P 13 W 5 D 3 L 5, Butcher comes in and has a record of P 29 W 6 D 8 L 15, including one win in 18 games, and 9 defeats in our last 11 matches - yet you say we were dropping like a stone under Fenlon? It's ridiculous. You're right that we weren't scoring goals (13 in 15 games), but we weren't conceding many either (14 in 15) - which backs up what was true; that we were an average SPL team playing sterile, unexciting football. But to say that Fenlon was culpable in our relegation shows nothing other than your complete dislike for him, and stands up to zero scrutiny.

Was relegation on anyone's thoughts when Fenlon left? Of course not. Was it on anyone's mind when Butcher was appointed? Of course not, it was a question of how far up the league we would finish. Relegation only came into our thoughts after Butcher got everything wrong in the short time he was here. We only needed one more win to stay in the league, Fenlon left in November and Butcher had 25 league games in charge, yet Fenlon takes some responsibilty? Nah.

You obviously don't rate Fenlon, that's fair enough, you're not alone - I value much of what he did, but acknowledge that he had to go when he did. I find it curious though that Butcher seems to get very little of your ire compared to Fenlon, yet Fenlon did some good for Hibs, when Butcher was an unmitigated disaster. Only one out of the two was a '***** manager massively out of his depth at Hibs', and it wasn't Fenlon.

People on this thread are now deciding to have a go at people who are suggesting that Fenlon was better than/not as bad as we thought - yet there's plenty on here who came out with statements like 'we have a proper manager now' and such like after Butcher was appointed. I have no issue with folk backing a new manager (obviously), but needlessly putting the boot into the previous one is unnecessary. And yet here we are, with Fenlon still getting a kicking, months after he has left and his successor has dragged us down further than even the most pessimistic supporter could ever guess.

I think Fenlon did a decent job at Hibs, though I can accept that others may not judge him so. However, if people can't see that he was ten times the manager that Butcher was for us, it's just shear prejudice IMO.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Pat Fenlon ............ The football was eye watering and utterly stagnant, it was getting to the point where fans would have been getting their laces taken off them on the way into ER. The best we ever played under him was the 2nd half v Falkirk coz he had no choice but to go for it and the 1st 20 minutes in his last game. Unfortunately for him by that time all that mattered was the result.

Butcher .......... TBH I wouldn't have burst oot greetin' if he had been given another chance. But I'm not unhappy that he has gone either. Loads of better managers have been sacked after poor runs which were not as bad as ours and didn't end in relegation.

As for Sportsound: Michael Stewart is the best pundit on radio or TV by a mile at the moment ...... His opinion of TB was damning and I for one respect it.

Whatever folks opinion of todays events some things are now clear: We now need a pile of new players one of whom has to be a keeper. We need a new manager who, please Lord, appreciates the need for a right back, a left back and how to organise a defence and most of all how to get a team to play quick passing football.

Its a clean slate now no doubt: Or it would be if we could get Petrie out ......he is the only link to the last few years of dross, which have been as bad as its possible to get. When he goes I will truly believe we can move on and are serious about doing so.

[Michael]

Michael stewart talks too much sense for a jambo:greengrin I always find myself agreeing with him with his comments over our team. I thought williams was also good and never took it as an opportunity to slag Butcher. What I do not understand with Butcher is that he could not see the effect he was having on morale. Christ even fergie has admitted he could no longer manage the same way he did in the eighties.

Agreed -- especially about Mikey Stewart. I always thought he was a tit, but I think he's a great pundit and he speaks a lot of sense.

[Hiber-nation]

Pat Fenlon ............ The football was eye watering and utterly stagnant, it was getting to the point where fans would have been getting their laces taken off them on the way into ER. The best we ever played under him was the 2nd half v Falkirk coz he had no choice but to go for it and the 1st 20 minutes in his last game. Unfortunately for him by that time all that mattered was the result.

Butcher .......... TBH I wouldn't have burst oot greetin' if he had been given another chance. But I'm not unhappy that he has gone either. Loads of better managers have been sacked after poor runs which were not as bad as ours and didn't end in relegation.

As for Sportsound: Michael Stewart is the best pundit on radio or TV by a mile at the moment ...... His opinion of TB was damning and I for one respect it.

Whatever folks opinion of todays events some things are now clear: We now need a pile of new players one of whom has to be a keeper. We need a new manager who, please Lord, appreciates the need for a right back, a left back and how to organise a defence and most of all how to get a team to play quick passing football.

Its a clean slate now no doubt: Or it would be if we could get Petrie out ......he is the only link to the last few years of dross, which have been as bad as its possible to get. When he goes I will truly believe we can move on and are serious about doing so.

:top marks

[Thecat23]

You can't justify the statement that we were dropping like a stone. Say you wanted him gone after 5-1, fair enough, many would agree with you - sacking him after the Celtic game would have been ridiculous, though the Malmo game was as close to a stand alone sackable result as you'll get. But we weren't dropping like a stone.

Last season under Fenlon we were P 44 W 17 D 12 L 15. Domestically this season under Fenlon we were P 13 W 5 D 3 L 5, Butcher comes in and has a record of P 29 W 6 D 8 L 15, including one win in 18 games, and 9 defeats in our last 11 matches - yet you say we were dropping like a stone under Fenlon? It's ridiculous. You're right that we weren't scoring goals (13 in 15 games), but we weren't conceding many either (14 in 15) - which backs up what was true; that we were an average SPL team playing sterile, unexciting football. But to say that Fenlon was culpable in our relegation shows nothing other than your complete dislike for him, and stands up to zero scrutiny.

Was relegation on anyone's thoughts when Fenlon left? Of course not. Was it on anyone's mind when Butcher was appointed? Of course not, it was a question of how far up the league we would finish. Relegation only came into our thoughts after Butcher got everything wrong in the short time he was here. We only needed one more win to stay in the league, Fenlon left in November and Butcher had 25 league games in charge, yet Fenlon takes some responsibilty? Nah.

You obviously don't rate Fenlon, that's fair enough, you're not alone - I value much of what he did, but acknowledge that he had to go when he did. I find it curious though that Butcher seems to get very little of your ire compared to Fenlon, yet Fenlon did some good for Hibs, when Butcher was an unmitigated disaster. Only one out of the two was a '***** manager massively out of his depth at Hibs', and it wasn't Fenlon.

People on this thread are now deciding to have a go at people who are suggesting that Fenlon was better than/not as bad as we thought, and are getting pelters for it - yet there's plenty on here who came out with statements like 'we have a proper manager now' and such like after Butcher was appointed. I have no issue with folk backing a new manager (obviously), but needlessly putting the boot into the previous one is unnecessary. And yet here we are, with Fenlon still getting a kicking, months after he has left and his successor has dragged us down further than even the most pessimistic supporter could ever guess.

I think Fenlon did a decent job at Hibs, though I can accept that others may not judge him so. However, if people can't see that he was ten times the manager that Butcher was for us, it's just shear prejudice IMO.

I thought we would be in a relegation fight if we stuck with Pat. I wasn't the only one. Whether we would have dropped I don't know. But all the signs watching his teams were we would by the end of the season be around the bottom.

I'm not having a go at you Stevie, we just share different opinions. You think he done ok I don't. I set my ambitions for Hibs higher than bottom six and getting pumped in Europe and finals.

That last statement saying he is "ten times" the manager is a tad OTT. Has Fenlon got another job btw? Not being smart or that actually have no idea if he's back involved. If not I wouldn't be shocked to see TB in work before Pat. Just my opinion.

[Paisley Hibby]

I can't believe people seeing Fenlon as the answer after a few months ...he was hopeless and just cause TB turned out even worse doesn't make Fenlon any better...

If Fenlon had stayed until the end of the season we would still be in the premier league. Having said that, we'd now have let him go at the end of his contract and would be recruiting Terry Butcher from ICT and thinking that was a good move :greengrin

[Cropley10]

Let's not forget had Alex Harris & Leigh Griffiths not played out their skin in the semi v Falkirk 2nd half he'd have got his jotters then.

There were very very few highs under Fenlon - plenty lows but Butcher for a short while gave us belief. Yes it went wrong & Butcher & Pats players share the blame with the old manager.

It was a perfect storm.

[ManBearPig]

Interesting, good points made by Michael Stewart, Ben Williams, Simon Pia as for Chick Young what an arse.

agreed! chick loves terry but cant see a lot of this is atbhis door.

[ManBearPig]

is it wrong that mikey stewart is my mew favourite pundit. when he mentioned boozy I thought 'this man gets it!' and shot down the BS about players not giving their all.

[Greenblood70]

The quote I found most interesting was Leeann mentioning in the interview they have a number of positive announcements to make. I look forward to hearing them, I'm feeling more and more optimistic with every soundbite from our new Chief Exec.

Butcher had to go imo, we can argue about the timing and the players who were released but the important thing is one of the major obstacles in bringing the fans back to ER has been removed. It's absolutely vital we're all pulling in the same direction ASAP. However much I back the Petrie Out campaign deep down I just cannot see STF bowing to fan pressure and removing him. Even if he did publically I don't doubt he'd continue to have significant private input.

Edit - a final point, please put Chic Young out to grass BBC. The mans a buffoon, he barely scratches the surface of any non OF item, usually sticking up for one of his perceived mates. He's an absolute embarrassment on any programme.

[Stewboy]

Under Fenlon we wouldnt have gone down I don't think but whilst he was in charge we would've always finished with a whimper in the bottom 6

[Coco Bryce]

One of the announcements is obviously the Spartans tie in.

[J-C]

Can't believe we're still discussing Fenlon, jeez everyone get over it.

Fenlon had an imbalanced squad with zero pace and creativity but I don't think we'd be relegated under him if he'd stayed, only problem if he'd stayed would be we're papering over the cracks again and looking forward to another drab season.

I hate to say this but maybe this is all for the best, unfortunately we're starting at a lower level but with the squad almost at zero a new man can finally bring in a full squad and shape the team to his standards without having to put up with 3/4 of the squad always being another managers choice.

[Stevie Reid]

I thought we would be in a relegation fight if we stuck with Pat. I wasn't the only one. Whether we would have dropped I don't know. But all the signs watching his teams were we would by the end of the season be around the bottom.

I'm not having a go at you Stevie, we just share different opinions. You think he done ok I don't. I set my ambitions for Hibs higher than bottom six and getting pumped in Europe and finals.

That last statement saying he is "ten times" the manager is a tad OTT. Has Fenlon got another job btw? Not being smart or that actually have no idea if he's back involved. If not I wouldn't be shocked to see TB in work before Pat. Just my opinion.

I know you're not having a go mate, neither am I - I just strongly disagree with your assertion and have made several points that I believe back my argument up, whilst I don't think you have backed yours with anything. And it continues - we had a point per game average after 11 league games when Fenlon left (having played all the other teams) that would have seen us on 52 points at the end of the season. Of course neither of us knows what would have happened, there's just nothing to suggest that what you're saying was likely, whilst there's loads to suggest that we would have been fine and never in any danger.

And please, my ambitions for Hibs are same as anyone else's - but I realise the mess that we were in when Fenlon took over, and the good work that he did as well as the bad results. And funny how reaching a cup final suddenly became insignificant after Fenlon did it two years running. Yes, 5-1 was a disaster, but I'd imagine that getting into the latter stages of cup tournaments would fall somewhere within your ambitions. Yes, it's nice to win obviously, but getting to semi finals and finals always makes a season more exciting. FWIW, the nonsense that came out after the 3-0 to Celtic startled me completely - we were in 7th in the league and played the Champions, chasing a double, with our best player injured. It was a routine victory for Celtic, not an embarrassment or capitulation on our part.

And please note that I said 'ten times the manager Butcher was for us' - I don't see how anyone can argue with that really. I think you're probably right that Butcher will work again before Fenlon, but that comes down to stature in the game. Fenlon's CV and achievements (again, in context) are way better than Butcher's.

Can you imagine where we would have ended up had we appointed a manager as bad as Butcher after Calderwood left?! Pat's achievements are modest in the grand scheme of things at Hibs, but you get all the context you need by looking at what he inherited, and what happened when someone else tried to do with what he left behind.

Incidentally, one of the things that Fenlon regularly got stick for was the loan signings he made in his first transfer window in the January after he arrived (and were ofen used by many on here as a means of justifying Butcher's inactivity in his only window) - yet our results improved after he made those signings, and whilst they were far from brilliant players brought in, practically all of them played at least some part in us winning the points necessary to stay up. Maybe if Butcher had done something similar in January this year we may have gotten that one extra win required. Who knows? What we do know is he did practically nothing to freshen us up, whilst alienating those who were already here.

Pat admitted that eventually the job was probably too much for him - but that doesn't mean he underestimated how big the job was, I think he knew only too well, and just fell short in the end. Butcher did underestimate the scale of what he was taking on, and look where we are now. However you rate Fenlon as a Hibs manager, he can only be rated as miles better than Butcher.

Here's hoping the next one is miles better than Fenlon. He'll be a very good one if he is.

[TornadoHibby]

Mikey Stewart is a sound chap who invariably talks sense.


Oh, and THAT goal in the cup v A'deen...

A belter indeed! :agree:

Was the most one sided game in the first half but IIRC was 1 all at HT! :agree:

[Thecat23]

I know you're not having a go mate, neither am I - I just strongly disagree with your assertion and have made several points that I believe back my argument up, whilst I don't think you have backed yours with anything. And it continues - we had a point per game average after 11 league games when Fenlon left (having played all the other teams) that would have seen us on 52 points at the end of the season. Of course neither of us knows what would have happened, there's just nothing to suggest that what you're saying was likely, whilst there's loads to suggest that we would have been fine and never in any danger.

And please, my ambitions for Hibs are same as anyone else's - but I realise the mess that we were in when Fenlon took over, and the good work that he did as well as the bad results. And funny how reaching a cup final suddenly became insignificant after Fenlon did it two years running. Yes, 5-1 was a disaster, but I'd imagine that getting into the latter stages of cup tournaments would fall somewhere within your ambitions. Yes, it's nice to win obviously, but getting to semi finals and finals always makes a season more exciting. FWIW, the nonsense that came out after the 3-0 to Celtic startled me completely - we were in 7th in the league and played the Champions, chasing a double, with our best player injured. It was a routine victory for Celtic, not an embarrassment or capitulation on our part.

And please note that I said 'ten times the manager Butcher was for us' - I don't see how anyone can argue with that really. I think you're probably right that Butcher will work again before Fenlon, but that comes down to stature in the game. Fenlon's CV and achievements (again, in context) are way better than Butcher's.

Can you imagine where we would have ended up had we appointed a manager as bad as Butcher after Calderwood left?! Pat's achievements are modest in the grand scheme of things at Hibs, but you get all the context you need by looking at what he inherited, and what happened when someone else tried to do with what he left behind.

Incidentally, one of the things that Fenlon regularly got stick for was the loan signings he made in his first transfer window in the January after he arrived (and were ofen used by many on here as a means of justifying Butcher's inactivity in his only window) - yet our results improved after he made those signings, and whilst they were far from brilliant players brought in, practically all of them played at least some part in us winning the points necessary to stay up. Maybe if Butcher had done something similar in January this year we may have gotten that one extra win required. Who knows? What we do know is he did practically nothing to freshen us up, whilst alienating those who were already here.

Pat admitted that eventually the job was probably too much for him - but that doesn't mean he underestimated how big the job was, I think he knew only too well, and just fell short in the end. Butcher did underestimate the scale of what he was taking on, and look where we are now. However you rate Fenlon as a Hibs manager, he can only be rated as miles better than Butcher.

Here's hoping the next one is miles better than Fenlon. He'll be a very good one if he is.

I think we can agree facts can be perceived to benefit an argument for both sides. His football was really bad. What was his win ratio last 20 games? I do agree with the loan deals. We needed ones to make an impact TB didn't give us this.

Fenlon though bought this team, these are his players that is also a fact. They got him the bullet as much as anyone else. The finals are only worth it if you win. I'm sorry that's how I feel. I don't care for being runner up and I certainly don't care to be humiliated in one and I've no words to describe Europe.

It's like many things in life, I won't change how I feel about him and how he left us in this mess. For me a mess just as bad as CC as the players weren't up for it. Butcher, Fenlon, Calderwood are all equal for me. All absolutely honking.

At least you are putting points across and discussing it rather than just saying Butcher was ***** Fenlon is miles better. Hate when folk do that.

Whoever comes in we'll no doubt both back so let's hope they can get us out this horrible mess mate.

Better no be Pat though ;D

[Thecat23]

A belter indeed! :agree:

Was the most one sided game in the first half but IIRC was 1 all at HT! :agree:

Memory isn't to bad for an older boy R. ;)

[ManBearPig]

http://youtu.be/7KJcB-xv5XA

[ManBearPig]

twas a belter and if I remeber no cameras that night shame as one of the best ive seen at ER

[blackpoolhibs]

twas a belter and if I remeber no cameras that night shame as one of the best ive seen at ER

I thought it was live on the telly that night? :confused:

[jacomo]

I thought we would be in a relegation fight if we stuck with Pat. I wasn't the only one. Whether we would have dropped I don't know. But all the signs watching his teams were we would by the end of the season be around the bottom.

I'm not having a go at you Stevie, we just share different opinions. You think he done ok I don't. I set my ambitions for Hibs higher than bottom six and getting pumped in Europe and finals.

That last statement saying he is "ten times" the manager is a tad OTT. Has Fenlon got another job btw? Not being smart or that actually have no idea if he's back involved. If not I wouldn't be shocked to see TB in work before Pat. Just my opinion.

Stevie Reid has brought statistics to the table - it's not really enough to shrug it off with 'we've just got different opinions'.

Fact is, we struggled to score goals all season - under Pat, and under TB. We signed a replacement for LG and it didn't work out, and you can blame Pat for that. But it was under TB that we then fell apart, and slid into a relegation battle.

You can argue about ICT or Irish football all you want, but their records at Hibs is what matters to us. And TB's stats are so bad they make Calderwood look good.

[SMAXXA]

Williams can kiss my ass. They should have shown a bit of professional pride instead of blaming butcher for everything. They should all have risen above what butcher was saying and played to win for the fans. Talks cheap and although Williams is a good keeper he can't blame a team full of bottlers on the management.

Away you go....I've said for long enough you tell people how poor they are and they learn to believe it....only folk to blame are the 3 chuckle brothers

[Stevie Reid]

I think we can agree facts can be perceived to benefit an argument for both sides. His football was really bad. What was his win ratio last 20 games? I do agree with the loan deals. We needed ones to make an impact TB didn't give us this.

Fenlon though bought this team, these are his players that is also a fact. They got him the bullet as much as anyone else. The finals are only worth it if you win. I'm sorry that's how I feel. I don't care for being runner up and I certainly don't care to be humiliated in one and I've no words to describe Europe.

It's like many things in life, I won't change how I feel about him and how he left us in this mess. For me a mess just as bad as CC as the players weren't up for it. Butcher, Fenlon, Calderwood are all equal for me. All absolutely honking.

At least you are putting points across and discussing it rather than just saying Butcher was ***** Fenlon is miles better. Hate when folk do that.

Whoever comes in we'll no doubt both back so let's hope they can get us out this horrible mess mate.

Better no be Pat though ;D

He won 8 and lost 8 of his last 20 mate, including the Malmo games and Celtic cup final. Honestly can't see how you can possibly equate Fenlon to Butcher in any way, but there you go.

I don't care for losing cup finals either, and Malmo game was a disgrace. I was making a bigger point than just that though.

Anyway, I'm done for tonight.

[Thecat23]

Stevie Reid has brought statistics to the table - it's not really enough to shrug it off with 'we've just got different opinions'.

Fact is, we struggled to score goals all season - under Pat, and under TB. We signed a replacement for LG and it didn't work out, and you can blame Pat for that. But it was under TB that we then fell apart, and slid into a relegation battle.

You can argue about ICT or Irish football all you want, but their records at Hibs is what matters to us. And TB's stats are so bad they make Calderwood look good.

Think you missed the point, I'm not backing TB he's honking. I'm saying Fenlon was also rotten. That's it!!

[Thecat23]

He won 8 and lost 8 of his last 20 mate, including the Malmo games and Celtic cup final. Honestly can't see how you can possibly equate Fenlon to Butcher in any way, but there you go.

I don't care for losing cup finals either, and Malmo game was a disgrace. I was making a bigger point than just that though.

Anyway, I'm done for tonight.

Butcher is worse, I'm not arguing that! I'm saying Fenlon was honking as well. Folk talking like he was actually good is baffling me Stevie.

Another poster just said you brought the facts. So to clear this up... Fenlon was an utter shambles of a manager Butcher was worse!! If you and anyone think different that's cool. But I think your wrong.

[DC_Hibs]

Think you missed the point, I'm not backing TB he's honking. I'm saying Fenlon was also rotten. That's it!!

Like Gail Porter and Duncan Goodhew fighting over a comb.
What a waste of time arguing over the merits of those two windae licking buffoons.

Awrite, who's next then??

Rgds

[ionahibby]

Williams can kiss my ass. They should have shown a bit of professional pride instead of blaming butcher for everything. They should all have risen above what butcher was saying and played to win for the fans. Talks cheap and although Williams is a good keeper he can't blame a team full of bottlers on the management.

Agree and micheal Stewart has some cheek considering he was directly involved in the John Collins saga many moons ago, so I'm not surprised he is taking the players side. Certain individuals aside for any of they players to suggest they committed 100% are lying.

[Thecat23]

Like Gail Porter and Duncan Goodhew fighting over a comb.
What a waste of time arguing over the merits of those two windae licking buffoons.

Awrite, who's next then??

Rgds

Haha correct! Both were rotten folk saying Fenlon is better makes me laugh. Yeah Pat was superb lets get him back.

Christ the last three managers have been pish. I'll go on record and say I'd Prob do better myself.

[blackpoolhibs]

Haha correct! Both were rotten folk saying Fenlon is better makes me laugh. Yeah Pat was superb lets get him back.

Christ the last three managers have been pish. I'll go on record and say I'd Prob do better myself.

Cant see anyone say Pat was superb, he was a manager who had us win a few draw a few and lose a few. Butcher just had us lose a lot, for me that makes Fenlon a better manager, but does not mean i wanted him to stay.

[Glorious St Pat]

Couldn't help nodding in agreement with his sharp analysis of the situation. Also liked his possible new management team - Murray, Beuzzy and Murray's current assistant?

[MWHIBBIES]

Holy ****, reading through this folk saying Fenlon was fine. People have short memories. Do you guys who wanted Fenlon to stay go to games? The football was just as bad but instead of losing most we'd draw the odd game with ZERO shots on goal.

Would we still be a Prem side? Who the **** knows! Not one person can't say yes for sure just as I can't say no we wouldn't. He had his time it was terrible, we brought in Butcher and it didn't work.

The man to blame is still at hibs but it won't shock me if the same folk who liked Pat want Rod to stay.Nothing wrong with people having opinions. I went every week during Fenlons time and wanted him to stay. My opinion was that Rome wasn't build in a day and we were miles better than when he took over. IMO he should have seen this season out and there is nothing to suggest we would have gone down had he stayed.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Sounds like TB lost the dressing room early....

However, how many times do we hear that the player's don't like the training? FFS these are meant to be PROFESSIONAL players, yet we are being told they are not confident in their own abilities to play at home in front of the fans.....Sorry that does not wash with me, if they are scared to play in front of home fans, scared to make mistakes during games, then they are in the wrong game.......They could have shown solidarity by pulling together for each other on a match day, but they never......Charlatans.....

[Glorious St Pat]

Williams can kiss my ass. They should have shown a bit of professional pride instead of blaming butcher for everything. They should all have risen above what butcher was saying and played to win for the fans. Talks cheap and although Williams is a good keeper he can't blame a team full of bottlers on the management.

Did you actually listen to Stewart's valid point?

If a manager is constantly berating you, saying you cant do this and you cant do that, that you will be emptied, and questions over 'have we gone over this in training enough?' will certainly not instill the confidence, belief and relationship in your manager that you will go through brick walls for.

Listen to the podcast again if not.

[Thecat23]

Nothing wrong with people having opinions. I went every week during Fenlons time and wanted him to stay. My opinion was that Rome wasn't build in a day and we were miles better than when he took over. IMO he should have seen this season out and there is nothing to suggest we would have gone down had he stayed.

That's fine and that's your opinion. Mine is he was crap and deserved to go. That's my opinion.

[SMAXXA]

Sounds like TB lost the dressing room early....

However, how many times do we hear that the player's don't like the training? FFS these are meant to be PROFESSIONAL players, yet we are being told they are not confident in their own abilities to play at home in front of the fans.....Sorry that does not wash with me, if they are scared to play in front of home fans, scared to make mistakes during games, then they are in the wrong game.......They could have shown solidarity by pulling together for each other on a match day, but they never......Charlatans.....

I kinda feel sorry for him with regards to this as your correct there's seems to be a deep rooted culture of this at Easter road. In his defence he was shipping all the players out to try change this but his errors and poor performance prior to this resulted in him not having the opportunity to see through with so,etching I think we have all called for, a mass clear out and culture change.

[Glorious St Pat]

To those defending Fenlon - one simple question:

Is that the extent of your ambition for this club?

Ok, two:

Is this how far how our acceptance of mediocrity and shame has fallen?

[Baldy Foghorn]

I kinda feel sorry for him with regards to this as your correct there's seems to be a deep rooted culture of this at Easter road. In his defence he was shipping all the players out to try change this but his errors and poor performance prior to this resulted in him not having the opportunity to see through with so,etching I think we have all called for, a mass clear out and culture change.

He certainly cocked up with his treatment of KT and others, but you got the impression during games, that they certainly weren't playing for him.....That to my mind is unforgivable

[Glorious St Pat]

I kinda feel sorry for him with regards to this as your correct there's seems to be a deep rooted culture of this at Easter road. In his defence he was shipping all the players out to try change this but his errors and poor performance prior to this resulted in him not having the opportunity to see through with so,etching I think we have all called for, a mass clear out and culture change.

I take issue with the above because the bedroom tax sponsor blindly tried to enforced his archaic ideas of football on all the players even the youths who were used to free expression and bloody football. Little to do with culture at this juncture just petty stubborness by two thug footballers in charge.

[SMAXXA]

He certainly cocked up with his treatment of KT and others, but you got the impression during games, that they certainly weren't playing for him.....That to my mind is unforgivable

Yeah it was plain to see and correctly brought into question his man management. Then when you consider his treatment of younger players, complaints to PFA and to the chairman it never looked good for him. No wonder Harris has looked so bad, hopefully he will regain his confidence and kick on and have the career we hope he will have.

[SMAXXA]

I take issue with the above because the bedroom tax sponsor blindly tried to enforced his archaic ideas of football on all the players even the youths who were used to free expression and bloody football. Little to do with culture at this juncture just petty stubborness by two thug footballers in charge.

I think these are 2 distinctly different points and I'm not disagreeing with your comments. However the culture was and has been an issue for some time if you believe what you hear and he certainly tried to change this. Unfortunately for him he made an arse of everything else on the way.

[SteveHFC]

Mikey Stewart :top marks

[Baldy Foghorn]

The number of times we lost a goal, and the whole team looked towards the ground, knowing that was it.....Where was the desire, urgency, professionalism to take the game by the scruff of the neck, and get back into game?

Stewart saying how each manager has been backed, look at the quality of these "players", and how many where the first choice for the respective manager?

[Glorious St Pat]

He certainly cocked up with his treatment of KT and others, but you got the impression during games, that they certainly weren't playing for him.....That to my mind is unforgivable

Touched upon by Stewart's comments - if you constantly berate and criticise and make it clear that certain players cannot do this and that...it wears you down despite how hard you try. It's like trying a new technique at golf and it is simply not working and you wish to go back to how you were previously trained but prevented to do so because of constant berating from your your coach. This is poor training and bloody mindedness. At the end of the day, like golf. the end result is the most important.

And with this, Butcher is culpable.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Touched upon by Stewart's comments - if you constantly berate and criticise and make it clear that certain players cannot do this and that...it wears you down despite how hard you try. It's like trying a new technique at golf and it is simply not working and you wish to go back to how you were previously trained but prevented to do so because of constant berating from your your coach. This is poor training and bloody mindedness. At the end of the day, like golf. the end result is the most important.

And with this, Butcher is culpable.

The players ain't blameless

[jacomo]

The players ain't blameless

Nope, but that discussion was very insightful.

Ultimately, it's the managers responsibility - in any walk of life - to get his team to perform.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Nope, but that discussion was very insightful.

Ultimately, it's the managers responsibility - in any walk of life - to get his team to perform.

If they were being told they were useless and being constantly berated, it could have been a spur for them to prove him wrong, ultimately it failed, they failed and he failed.....

[Thecat23]

The players ain't blameless

Agree, those players could have at least tried to get us out this mess no matter what they thought about Butcher.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Agree, those players could have at least tried to get us out this mess no matter what they thought about Butcher.

My thoughts exactly

[GraniteCityHibs]

Mikey Stewart is a sound chap who invariably talks sense.


Oh, and THAT goal in the cup v A'deen...

Shinned it

[MWHIBBIES]

That's fine and that's your opinion. Mine is he was crap and deserved to go. That's my opinion.Fine, I respect that. I don't call you out on it like you do with people who liked Fenlon.

[Thecat23]

Fine, I respect that. I don't call you out on it like you do with people who liked Fenlon.

Easy, I'm just astounded that folk were talking as if Fenlon was some sort of a good manager. He really wasn't hence why he's gone. Better than Butcher well that isn't hard.

I'd actually like a manager who wants to play football, has shots at the goal and knows how to set up a team. Butcher and Fenlon failed In those departments in my view.

[matty_f]

I just listened to the podcast, I have to say i thought Stewart was very good and made some terrific points.

[smurf]

I just listened to the podcast, I have to say i thought Stewart was very good and made some terrific points.

I've just listened to it too and he came across as usual very well. Refreshingly honest.

[Thecat23]

I've just listened to it too and he came across as usual very well. Refreshingly honest.

Always liked him as a pundit. Speaks the truth and comes across well.

[macd123]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot


Really enjoyed listening to that and agree about michael stewart - i might have to change my opinion on him. He sounded at the end like he was passionate about the club and genuinely upset at seeing young guys at the club playing such "archaic" football.

If they are right that butcher was trying to get the youth teams playing the same style as the first team then the guy simply had to go.

[Green Reaper]

Just watched it and Mikey came across very well with excellent points. As for chick, no real insight or understanding. In fact, when asked about today's sacking if TB, chick replied "I'm not surprised that he went today but I'm surprised that he's gone" aye okay then..eh?

[macd123]

Easy, I'm just astounded that folk were talking as if Fenlon was some sort of a good manager. He really wasn't hence why he's gone. Better than Butcher well that isn't hard.

I'd actually like a manager who wants to play football, has shots at the goal and knows how to set up a team. Butcher and Fenlon failed In those departments in my view.

It's pretty clear now the fans are split down the middle on fenlon

[PapillonVert]

Michael stewart talks too much sense for a jambo:greengrin I always find myself agreeing with him with his comments over our team. I thought williams was also good and never took it as an opportunity to slag Butcher. What I do not understand with Butcher is that he could not see the effect he was having on morale. Christ even fergie has admitted he could no longer manage the same way he did in the eighties.

Yup, all this reverse psychology thing whereby you tell people they are rubbish and they set out to prove you wrong might have worked in TB's playing days but doesn't seem to go down a storm with today's more fragile generation who seem to need constant reassurance.

As someone said elsewhere, even Sir Alex had to abandon the flying hairdryer technique.

Maybe we need to send the Managers on some management courses?

[Golden Bear]

It's pretty clear now the fans are split down the middle on fenlon

It's all water under the bridge now but it's not clear at all. My judgement would be 90% thought that Fenlon was an abject failure but he had a loyal 10% of the support who thought he could walk on water.

It's time to move on regardless.

[PeeJay]

Just watched it and Mikey came across very well with excellent points. As for chick, no real insight or understanding. In fact, when asked about today's sacking if TB, chick replied "I'm not surprised that he went today but I'm surprised that he's gone" aye okay then..eh?

No, you got that wrong - what he said was "I am surprised that he went today, I'm not surprised that he's gone ...

[AlbertK86]

Yeah it was plain to see and correctly brought into question his man management. Then when you consider his treatment of younger players, complaints to PFA and to the chairman it never looked good for him. No wonder Harris has looked so bad, hopefully he will regain his confidence and kick on and have the career we hope he will have.

Wasn't aware of complaints to PFA and chairman .... If you are able to tell us what was the script there

[Hibs7]

I think Mickey Stewart and Ben Williams came across very well with well thought out and honest opinions/statements .. Chic well is Chic and always spouts rubbish. I like the idea of Murray and Boozy .. That would get season tickets sales going !!

[Turkish Green]

Easy, I'm just astounded that folk were talking as if Fenlon was some sort of a good manager. He really wasn't hence why he's gone. Better than Butcher well that isn't hard.

I'd actually like a manager who wants to play football, has shots at the goal and knows how to set up a team. Butcher and Fenlon failed In those departments in my view.

Fenlon and Butcher (as it transpired) were both crap. The differences between them was that PF had Griffiths' goals while TB had Vine's & Collins'.

Do I blame the managers or do I blame the man that appointed them (and the ones before them) AND penny-pinched when he could have signed Leigh on a contract.




PETRIE OOT

[Stevie Reid]

To those defending Fenlon - one simple question:

Is that the extent of your ambition for this club?

Ok, two:

Is this how far how our acceptance of mediocrity and shame has fallen?

Neither. All you're trying to with that post is have a pretty cheap dig at people who have spent several posts articulating their views on Fenlon very well.


It's all water under the bridge now but it's not clear at all. My judgement would be 90% thought that Fenlon was an abject failure but he had a loyal 10% of the support who thought he could walk on water.

It's time to move on regardless.

Total nonsense, especially the walking on water part. Anyone who has analysed his performance as manager objectively can't possibly - and indeed no one has - tried to gloss over his many, many faults; everyone has acknowledged them. A more accurate gauge of opinion on here IMO would be the majority didn't like him, a small portion believe he did ok at a difficult time, with an equally small portion not prepared to give him even the smallest shred of praise for anything during his time here.

What puzzles many, myself included, is that many posters are still using terms like "abject failure" with regards to Fenlon, when it is extremely curious terminology to use, especially when you look at the two managers he was sandwiched between. We were terrible under Calderwood, and absolute basket case - Fenlon made us average (and eventually, painful to watch), though it took a **** load of work to make us average, that's how bad we were. Butcher couldn't even maintain our average status, he couldn't even make us just bad, he made us completely ****ing awful.

No one on here is saying that Fenlon was the answer, simply that his performance doesn't justify some of the abuse that's thrown his way, especially in light of what came before he arrived, and what happened after. It's not a difficult argument to understand, especially when I've explained it several different ways - yet posters continue to deliberately be obtuse, and try to summarise these posts with extreme claims that were never made in the first place.

[PeeJay]

Wasn't impressed in the slightest by anything, anybody said in the podcast I heard. The opinions of Stewart and Williams are from their perspectives only, nothing really surprising or revealing or particularly insightful mentioned - It'd be interesting to hear Butcher's take on events.

What shocked me most was L. Dempster's comments. For someone being touted as an achieving, strong-headed woman, who is a steely character and knows where she is going she offered absolutely nothing whatsoever of substance regarding the future of this club - corporate speak on a vacuous level, par excellence. Here we are a few weeks down the road after relegation, and after letting Butcher ditch so many players, she then decides (or the Board decides) that Butcher is no good after all, and we have to now start looking for some manager, and some players (quite a few in fact) so we can achieve something in the Championship, because time is moving on ... Apparently she has some announcements to make at some point in the future on something that may or not be of interest ... It's probably just me, but that whole podcast just made me even more aware of how truly screwed-up we are - and on top of that - the real culprits are still in charge ...​ and the Fenlon apologists are all out and about spouting their revisionist nonsense ...

[hibeesjoe]

Did you actually listen to Stewart's valid point?

If a manager is constantly berating you, saying you cant do this and you cant do that, that you will be emptied, and questions over 'have we gone over this in training enough?' will certainly not instill the confidence, belief and relationship in your manager that you will go through brick walls for.

Listen to the podcast again if not.

I totally agree and in hindsight the first sentence of my post wasn't the cleverest. I have listened to the full podcast and Ben Williams came across as a likeable bloke. All I was getting at though is that the players take a huge blame aswell. They only had to win a couple of games over the last few months too avoid relegation but they couldn't even mamage that. That's not all butchers fault.

[J-C]

I totally agree and in hindsight the first sentence of my post wasn't the cleverest. I have listened to the full podcast and Ben Williams came across as a likeable bloke. All I was getting at though is that the players take a huge blame aswell. They only had to win a couple of games over the last few months too avoid relegation but they couldn't even mamage that. That's not all butchers fault.

Even though Williams was having a go at Butcher in his interview he also implied that the players must take a portion of the blame too, he spoke about them being told to attack and drive forward in the 2nd leg but for some reason they didn't, they just went back into their shells.

It looks to me like the players were terrified of making any mistakes as they knew they'd be berated and bollocked by TB and MM, they probably tried to do just the simplest of things on the park and what we seen was players passing the buck constantly on the pitch.

[Turkish Green]

Petrie though, should have done his homework. Did he make this disastrous appointment based on what Butcher done at ICT alone?

He probably did. Spoke with his chums at Hampden, who advised him that Terry was an excellent chap, dontcha know.

[lapsedhibee]

What shocked me most was L. Dempster's comments. For someone being touted as an achieving, strong-headed woman, who is a steely character and knows where she is going she offered absolutely nothing whatsoever of substance regarding the future of this club - corporate speak on a vacuous level, par excellence. Here we are a few weeks down the road after relegation, and after letting Butcher ditch so many players, she then decides (or the Board decides) that Butcher is no good after all, and we have to now start looking for some manager, and some players (quite a few in fact) so we can achieve something in the Championship, because time is moving on ... Apparently she has some announcements to make at some point in the future on something that may or not be of interest ...

Agree with this. LD has been much touted as someone who tells it like it is. Yet she indicated quite clearly that the process of locating a new manager hadn't in any way begun. Kinda stunning. First time I've heard her speak and not at all impressed I'm afraid. :boo hoo:

(But then I wasn't impressed by Pat Stanton the very first time I saw him.)

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

Also agree with what he says about Boozy at the end, there. Hopefully we can get him involved coaching somehow!

[--------]

Williams' comments fit with the change in his body language on the pitch from the start to the end of the season.

Can't remember us ever conceding a goal under Fenlon when he wouldn't be screaming at whichever defender was at fault, there was clearly a sense of collective responsibility at the back. By the end of the season under Butcher he was just picking it out and punting it back up the park. Not saying the defence didn't care, but they looked like they had no pride or belief that they were better than they were playing.

Fenlon's position was made untenable by the fans and frankly nobody could foresee Butcher being quite so awful, but I really never understood the vitriolic anger towards, and protests about, Fenlon.

The Scottish media didn't like him because he didn't 'play the game' and frankly too many of our fans (not to single out Hibs fans, can say the same for the wider populace) allow their opinions and and knowledge to be shaped by what they read in The Sun or The Daily Record.


:top marks

I'm convinced that had Pat Fenlon stayed we would almost certainly not have been relegated. I have no doubt that the crucial factor in his leaving was the abuse he and the players were receiving from the home fans. The instance already mentioned, after the LC derby, was only one instance among many. The readiness of the Hibs fans to turn on their own is well-established in Scottish football, btw - I've spoken to Motherwell people and Hamilton people who have assured me that getting the Hibs fans to turn on their team was a primary aim of both teams when they played us. McCall and Neil were singing from the same song-sheet - "Score and early goal and the crowd'll turn on them." Tell me that's not how those games worked out.

(If the Accies players needed any confirmation, I'm sure MAC would have been happy to provide it. He experienced the abuse first-hand.)

Just for the record - I wouldn't have been in favour of renewing Pat Fenlon's contract. But in many people's eyes (and mouths) PF took all the blame for what is clearly a corporate failure throughout the club.

I wonder what odds Ladbrokes would give me on the NEXT Hibs manager actually getting some united support from his home fans?

[lapsedhibee]

I'm convinced that had Pat Fenlon stayed we would almost certainly not have been relegated. I have no doubt that the crucial factor in his leaving was the abuse he and the players were receiving from the home fans. The instance already mentioned, after the LC derby, was only one instance among many. The readiness of the Hibs fans to turn on their own is well-established in Scottish football, btw - I've spoken to Motherwell people and Hamilton people who have assured me that getting the Hibs fans to turn on their team was a primary aim of both teams when they played us. McCall and Neil were singing from the same song-sheet - "Score and early goal and the crowd'll turn on them." Tell me that's not how those games worked out.



I don't think that did happen at the Hamilton game. It did at the Killiemarnock game imo.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Mickey Stewart and Ben Williams came across very well with well thought out and honest opinions/statements .. Chic well is Chic and always spouts rubbish. I like the idea of Murray and Boozy .. That would get season tickets sales going !!

I felt they were working in tandem. Would they have been teammates at Man U?

[PeeJay]

:top marks

I've spoken to Motherwell people and Hamilton people who have assured me that getting the Hibs fans to turn on their team was a primary aim of both teams when they played us. McCall and Neil were singing from the same song-sheet - "Score and early goal and the crowd'll turn on them." Tell me that's not how those games worked out.


You make this sound as if it only happens at ER, and it's a problem specific to us, yet that is patently not the case: how often do we hear about silencing the mighty crowds at Parkhead or Ibrox when we go in front or really take the game to them (hasn't happened for a wee while granted ....) - their fans get on their teams back just as much as - well any team really, surely? Most clubs outside R/C/H and A don't really have a decent-sized crowd to silence or work anyway ... think this whole spiel whereby "the fans are the problem (partly)" is wrong - If the players want the fans on their side, a wee bit more effort, skill and the odd win would have done wonders ...

[1875er]

Agreed with everything Stewart said... he was spot on.

[brog]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot


Really enjoyed listening to that and agree about michael stewart - i might have to change my opinion on him. He sounded at the end like he was passionate about the club and genuinely upset at seeing young guys at the club playing such "archaic" football.

If they are right that butcher was trying to get the youth teams playing the same style as the first team then the guy simply had to go.

The last sentence is correct in that TB et al tried this approach when they first came to the club. However the youth coaches passionately defended their approach, TB watched a few games & basically left them to continue in their own fashion. I fully support the concept that we should have one playing culture throughout the club so players can move up/down without changing style. Just a pity TB didn't realise that the youth way was the right way!

[Shearer]

If it's Murray we go for, I wouldn't mind us trying to get Stewart involved somehow, maybe even as assistant. Seems to talk a lot of sense and has a bit of respect within the game. Murray/Stewart/boozy would do for me!

[Aldo]

Stewart isnae daft and was part of the best MF I've seen at ER, along with Beuzy, Broonie and KT.

What I would give for a MF like that the now!!

[Onion]

To those defending Fenlon - one simple question:

Is that the extent of your ambition for this club?

Ok, two:

Is this how far how our acceptance of mediocrity and shame has fallen?

Exactly. It's like some Hibs fans have got a form of football Stockholm Syndrome ! They're prepared to accept any old **** just because it's slightly better **** than the following guy served up. We've talked about the club having a hard reset. Think this also applies to some Hibs fans.

[Stevie Reid]

Exactly. It's like some Hibs fans have got a form of football Stockholm Syndrome ! They're prepared to accept any old **** just because it's slightly better **** than the following guy served up. We've talked about the club having a hard reset. Think this also applies to some Hibs fans.

I doubt that any Hibs fans ambitions for the club differ at all - where there is a vast difference is belief in how realistic some ambitions are, and how quickly lofty goals can be reached, especially when trying to move on from a particularly low ebb. I once got told that my ambitions for Hibs weren't great because I pointed out on a thread that there was no way that Gus Poyet would leave Brighton (where he was enjoying great success at the time) to come and manage us. I want Hibs to be as successful as they possibly can be, I'm just sensible enough to know that certain people in certain positions cannot be attracted to help us get there.

But anyway, I digress. Again, I see no one on here trying to argue that 7th place in the SPL should be the height of our ambitions, nor that Fenlon was the long term answer or that the style of football was acceptable - just a few of us saying that the context provided by Butcher's disastrous reign should maybe make some people be a wee bit less harsh in their appraisal of PF's time here.

Questions like the ones you quoted are just sanctimonious, I'm-a-better-supporter-than-you, posturing IMO. They're not an argument, nor are they salient points in the context of what people were discussing before.

[delbert]

I doubt that any Hibs fans ambitions for the club differ at all - where there is a vast difference is belief in how realistic some ambitions are, and how quickly lofty goals can be reached, especially when trying to move on from a particularly low ebb. I once got told that my ambitions for Hibs weren't great because I pointed out on a thread that there was no way that Gus Poyet would leave Brighton (where he was enjoying great success at the time) to come and manage us. I want Hibs to be as successful as they possibly can be, I'm just sensible enough to know that certain people in certain positions cannot be attracted to help us get there.

But anyway, I digress. Again, I see no one on here trying to argue that 7th place in the SPL should be the height of our ambitions, nor that Fenlon was the long term answer - just a few of us saying that the context provided by Butcher's disastrous reign should maybe make some people be a wee bit less harsh in their appraisal of PF's time here.

Questions like the ones you quoted are just sanctimonious, I'm-a-better-supporter-than-you, posturing IMO. They're not an argument, nor are they salient points in the context of what people were discussing before.

Sorry but those with harsh recollections are spot on, Fenlons tenure was rank and the football was awful. 2 cup finals where the extent of the ambition on both days was to try and not be humiliated and on both days, he failed miserably. Follow that up with possibly the worst club result ever in European football for a Scottish club and eye bleedingly bad football during his entire reign and I just can't see how he can be defended on any level. We have had some really dreadful managers recently and Fenlon is right up there. This thread is like trying to decide who was the best despot, Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot !

[--------]

You make this sound as if it only happens at ER, and it's a problem specific to us, yet that is patently not the case: how often do we hear about silencing the mighty crowds at Parkhead or Ibrox when we go in front or really take the game to them (hasn't happened for a wee while granted ....) - their fans get on their teams back just as much as - well any team really, surely? Most clubs outside R/C/H and A don't really have a decent-sized crowd to silence or work anyway ... think this whole spiel whereby "the fans are the problem (partly)" is wrong - If the players want the fans on their side, a wee bit more effort, skill and the odd win would have done wonders ...


I didn't suggest that it's only at ER that the away team will be encouraged to get an early goal to silence the home support. What I'm saying is that the Hibs support is seen by many people as being particularly prone to going after their own players. I don't think that's at all inaccurate; I've seen and heard it happen many times over the years.

The atmosphere at ER rarely positive and inspiring, usually fairly quiet, and occasionally absolutely poisonous.

You just need to look at the way people lay into individuals on this website.

[emerald green]

Why have you posted all the bad stuff, don't you know we are only supposed to concentrate on the 18 months he did anything decent?

Terribly sorry. :wink: