So what went wrong for Butcher at Hibs?

[matty_f]

So let me start by saying I 100% think it's the right decision to sack Butcher (and presumably his back room team). I'd like to hear folks thoughts on what went wrong for him (and more importantly, us) at Hibs. He had a great record at ICT, and had players that looked like they would have run through walls for him. They all wanted Malpas to get the gig when Butcher left as well.

Yet they were (by all accounts) absolutely hated by most of the squad and seemed to have an utterly horrendous relationship with them. The players didn't follow the tactics and there was clearly a huge breakdown in relations.

WTF happened??!!

[SlickShoes]

Combination of the management team and players equally not giving a **** when it came down to it. The management team will blame the players and vice versa but we are still in division 1 while they all go away to other clubs and move on with their careers.

[SMAXXA]

Butcher Malpas and Marsella went wrong that's it simple....

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Everything went wrong, even though I was happy enough when he arrived he turned out to be an unmitigating disaster.

[lord bunberry]

IMO he came in and thought the players he had were good enough to see the season out in relative safety, and start his rebuild in the summer. His biggest mistake was not realising sooner that we were in freefall, had he realised it earlier he might have saved us from the drop.

[SneakersO'Toole]

We appointed the wrong man - AGAIN! Simple as that.

Butcher's managerial record is woeful. 3 relegations throughout his career. That is awful in anyone's language.

He wasn't helped by the terrible surroundings at Hibs but what it comes down to is that he wasn't good enough. His record backs this up, we should never have appointed him the first place.

Petrie et all were sold on his recent record at Inverness and didn't think to look deeper. What went wrong is that he a poor manager. I don't think there is anything else that needs to be said to answer the OP's title question.

[ackeygraham]

Poor football, bad results.

Again another wished we got TB, but was very poor. He had to take some responsibility on getting us relegated and now the search is on.

[J-C]

The majority of the players not good enough to change tact when they came in, the management for not realizing what they were doing wasn't working.

Should've just kept things ticking over till we were safe, then do the cull at the end of the season. Instead he told 4 to find new clubs in January and then at least another 6 they weren't good enough and they'd be gone come the summer. Telling that many players mid season this was horrendous management skills and the players just downed tools, so to speak, even though professional pride and the supporters should've been enough for the players to step up and get that one win.

[lobster]

So let me start by saying I 100% think it's the right decision to sack Butcher (and presumably his back room team). I'd like to hear folks thoughts on what went wrong for him (and more importantly, us) at Hibs. He had a great record at ICT, and had players that looked like they would have run through walls for him. They all wanted Malpas to get the gig when Butcher left as well.

Yet they were (by all accounts) absolutely hated by most of the squad and seemed to have an utterly horrendous relationship with them. The players didn't follow the tactics and there was clearly a huge breakdown in relations.

WTF happened??!!

I would guess that like a lot of management they never took the time to assess the context properly and to understand what was going on at the club over a number of years. They believed their own hype to catastrophic affect.
This Leann love-in is similarly worrying.

[heretoday]

His much-vaunted motivational skills failed abismally.

Granted he was left with a substandard group of players but he should have been able to achieve mid-table at least and get them to show a bit of spirit.

He'll be pretty shattered by this, I imagine.

[BT58]

1 TB supposedly told certain players that they were not to be in his plans for the following season, and downed tools
2 players did not like his style of play [hoof] or training
3 the players where not good enough, on paper perhaps,,but not on the field
4 not getting in a striker in January
5 not getting pace or creativity in January
6 not having several windows to try and rectify the situation [ getting relegated put paid to this ]
7 we all bought into his philosophy [sp] of getting players to play [ his videos at start of his reign], but in reality it did not work,,,too many balloons

victor

[Houchy]

He, like every manager before, got very little backing which made it impossible to replace Leigh's 20+ goals.

[Saorsa]

Several things. His way of doing things and inability tae adapt, poor man management. The losers in the dressing room. Seems tae be too much player power at this club, the mangers position appears tae lack authority, they dinnae like him, down tools and he gets emptied by petrie. and

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01964/AK3R7R_1964678c.jpg

at the january transfer windae because the money was already wasted of paying for previous mistakes made by the person running this club.

[Alfred E Newman]

I think he totally underestimated the scale of the job. The expectation levels of a support that has been starved of success for too long, and the lack of quality at the club when he arrived caught him out. His failure to bring in decent players in January , his man management skills or lack of them and the way he wrote off half the playing staff with months of the season still to go were major blunders. If the results had been better the supporters might have put up with the hoof ball tactics but that style of football was never really going to be accepted at Easter Road.

[blackpoolhibs]

Butcher talks a good game, but very very rarely does it happen. He in my opinion got very lucky at ICT, the rest of him management career bares that out for me.

If Petrie had studied his football management career from day one till his last day at ICT, he should never have even had an interview for the job at Hibs.

[Kato]

So let me start by saying I 100% think it's the right decision to sack Butcher (and presumably his back room team). I'd like to hear folks thoughts on what went wrong for him (and more importantly, us) at Hibs. He had a great record at ICT, and had players that looked like they would have run through walls for him. They all wanted Malpas to get the gig when Butcher left as well.

Yet they were (by all accounts) absolutely hated by most of the squad and seemed to have an utterly horrendous relationship with them. The players didn't follow the tactics and there was clearly a huge breakdown in relations.

WTF happened??!!

When he arrived he was like a bull in china shop (literally). So clumsy with telling the press his proposed tactics, what he and his "management team" were going to do and not going to do. Then came the clumsiness in trying to gee up a disperate group of players with about 3 testicles between them by telling them they were rubbish. If I were ever in any kind of bother the last people I'd expect to step up to the mark and help would be the senior pro's from last seasons Hibs squad. For a so-called expert psychologist he totally mis-judged the people at his disposal and showed no sign that he would ever them back on his side again, even just the wee bit we needed.

Clumsy.

[jeffers]

So let me start by saying I 100% think it's the right decision to sack Butcher (and presumably his back room team). I'd like to hear folks thoughts on what went wrong for him (and more importantly, us) at Hibs. He had a great record at ICT, and had players that looked like they would have run through walls for him. They all wanted Malpas to get the gig when Butcher left as well.

Yet they were (by all accounts) absolutely hated by most of the squad and seemed to have an utterly horrendous relationship with them. The players didn't follow the tactics and there was clearly a huge breakdown in relations.

WTF happened??!!
You've certainly changed your tune, it wasn't that long ago you were arguing with me that even if we got relegated he should stay. Fwiw I think you have pretty much answered what went wrong. Even if he thought the players were not good enough it was his job to get the best out of them and he clearly couldn't. Add to that his decision not to play KT, LC a goalscoring midfielder played as a holding one and made captain, his handling of Alex Harris.......I could go on.

[Stevie Reid]

Despite his claims that he and Malpas always talked at ICT about what they would do if they ever got in at a big club, they clearly underestimated the job they were going into - Duffy and Calderwood did the same, and it's no surprise that those three are the worst managers we've had in my lifetime.

[The Modfather]

He didn't have Griffiths, we'd have been relegated the season before the one that just finished without him.

Fenlons hyperbole about changing the culture proved to be just that, bluster. The group that got us relegated were the same in every way as anything Under Calderwood.

The biggest failing being January. Petrie for "aspiring" to bumble through to the summer yet again, and Butcher for advising of a mass clear out without the actual clear out.

[Pretty Boy]

Some of the stories I heard were truly frightening, the guy had no relationship with the players at all.

I don't think many modern players, in these days of player power, respond to what might be called the 'hairdryer treatment'. Also freezing players out then bringing them back in to the fold for a few games before they disappeared was strange, as was his handling of Alex Harris.

I can't help think he totally underestimated the job here and both he and us have paid the price.

[Stevie Reid]

He didn't have Griffiths, we'd have been relegated the season before the one that just finished without him.

Fenlons hyperbole about changing the culture proved to be just that, bluster. The group that got us relegated were the same in every way as anything Under Calderwood.

The biggest failing being January. Petrie for "aspiring" to bumble through to the summer yet again, and Butcher for advising of a mass clear out without the actual clear out.

:yawn:

[Unseen work]

It would take far quicker saying what went right for him :Agree:

[Golden Bear]

Player power and his inability to get his message across? (not sure what it was to be honest)

Things have never been quite the same since RP's showdown with the Players when JC was there.

The Club has been in an apparently unstoppable decline ever since.

[tamig]

So let me start by saying I 100% think it's the right decision to sack Butcher (and presumably his back room team). I'd like to hear folks thoughts on what went wrong for him (and more importantly, us) at Hibs. He had a great record at ICT, and had players that looked like they would have run through walls for him. They all wanted Malpas to get the gig when Butcher left as well.

Yet they were (by all accounts) absolutely hated by most of the squad and seemed to have an utterly horrendous relationship with them. The players didn't follow the tactics and there was clearly a huge breakdown in relations.

WTF happened??!!

Round holes and square pegs sums it up for me.

[southsider]

Now if the second half of my dream double comes up as Petrie goes the £500 season ticket will be purchased. Well st for west and shall give the rest to susy at K F K.

[Saint Hibee]

Maybe a better way of putting the question would be what went right for Butcher at ICT? Was it just luck? What happened at Hibs is simply a return to form for Butcher who failed miserably in all previous posts bar ICT.

[matty_f]

You've certainly changed your tune, it wasn't that long ago you were arguing with me that even if we got relegated he should stay. Fwiw I think you have pretty much answered what went wrong. Even if he thought the players were not good enough it was his job to get the best out of them and he clearly couldn't. Add to that his decision not to play KT, LC a goalscoring midfielder played as a holding one and made captain, his handling of Alex Harris.......I could go on.

I've said a few times that I'd changed my mind about Butcher, the more I heard about what was going on at the club, the more obvious the need to remove him became. I have no problems admitting I wanted him to stay a while back, you'll probably have changed your mind about something before, no?

[J-C]

Maybe a better way of putting the question would be what went right for Butcher at ICT? Was it just luck? What happened at Hibs is simply a return to form for Butcher who failed miserably in all previous posts bar ICT.

ICT have very little aspirations except keeping away from relegation, Marsella was allowed time to scout the dregs of the lower leagues to get just the right type of player TB needed there, because they came from nowhere, the majority of the players were ecstatic just to be playing at this level and on decent wages, so in turn would run their heart out for TB and MM.
He didn't have the time at ER to do all this and his neanderthal workings were a complete disaster and the old TB and MM raised their heads again.

[jeffers]

I've said a few times that I'd changed my mind about Butcher, the more I heard about what was going on at the club, the more obvious the need to remove him became. I have no problems admitting I wanted him to stay a while back, you'll probably have changed your mind about something before, no?

No. Never. Oh wait a minute :wink:

Fair enough, I don't remember seeing any posts from you recently that said you had changed your mind, I just remember you being so adamant before that he should stay even if he took us down.

[The Modfather]

:yawn:

Stevie, I generally enjoy your posts especially as you're very good with the statistics and analysis of them. However that post adds nothing.

I could maybe have had an IMO in that statement, but don't think it's an "out there" view wether you agree with it or not.

Now away and fish out those John Collins stats you bring out to add some balance when he takes his customary verbal bearing as I'd take him back (with the right support team around him) in a heartbeat ;)

[jdships]

I said " Jury's out for me " when he was appointed .
This came from what ex Hibs players had said they knew of Butcher's management .
" He talks well ,has a plan A but never a plan B should things go adrift" was generally the comment

Thirteen Managers in eighteen years is just not good enough when you remember Alex Miller was in the job for ten prior to that !

Going to be difficult to attract a quality experienced Manager given that record ( "Poisoned Chalice " syndrome etc !!) and the fact we are a Championship side !!
Wonder who the Rabbit will be that LD is going to pull out of the hat ? :greengrin

Interesting few weeks ahead , methinks, which in many ways could make or break the season ahead :rolleyes:
:flag:

[Gordy M]

I think he totally underestimated the scale of the job. The expectation levels of a support that has been starved of success for too long, and the lack of quality at the club when he arrived caught him out. His failure to bring in decent players in January , his man management skills or lack of them and the way he wrote off half the playing staff with months of the season still to go were major blunders. If the results had been better the supporters might have put up with the hoof ball tactics but that style of football was never really going to be accepted at Easter Road.
Totally agree with this. I think he thought we were safe and told half the players they would not be here next year. Im sure he said something about this in the press after the dundee utd game?? You can almost see the drop in form from before that game to after.

[Kaff]

I posted this on another thread and no one replied (obviously as no one thinks it is connected?) but perhaps he never had the people skills to pull everyone through this time, although I felt he was very dignified publicly and was a credit to the club with his comments etc

We can't hide behind it as a club but I do want to mention that our good form under Butcher was prior to and just following the tragic passing of David Paul, we won one game after his funeral. Did this affect any uplift that we had from his appointment and subsequently was it hard to raise spirits?
We'll never know and as I say we can't hide behind this situation but I thought I would share that observation.

[Stevie Reid]

Stevie, I generally enjoy your posts especially as you're very good with the statistics and analysis of them. However that post adds nothing.

I could maybe have had an IMO in that statement, but don't think it's an "out there" view wether you agree with it or not.

Now away and fish out those John Collins stats you bring out to add some balance when he takes his customary verbal bearing as I'd take him back (with the right support team around him) in a heartbeat ;)

Haha! Apologies for being flippant mate :aok:

However... as well as it being a fairly redundant argument, I also find it deprives Fenlon of the credit he deserves (and indeed Griffiths gave him openly in the press) for improving Leigh, and calming him down. We had Griffiths in the season that we were almost relegated in 2011-12, he just wasn't that good - in fact, he missed a lot of our important end of season games (including the effective play off v Dunfermline) through stupid suspensions, so he actually harmed our cause quite a bit, and only scored 1 goal in our last 16 league games that season. Fenlon played a big part in getting his head sorted, him playing every week, and scoring lots of goals for us.

And besides, a quick look shows that Girffiths' goals single handedly won us 15 points in 2012-13, and we finished 21 points off the bottom of the league :wink:

[Waxy]

Looks like poor man management got Terry sacked.now the players who wouldn't play for the manager can get out too,the players who didn't give a thought to the fans.

[weonlywon6-2]

Looks like poor man management got Terry sacked.now the players who wouldn't play for the manager can get out too,the players who didn't give a thought to the fans.

This really about sums things up.I was happy when he came in as i believed for the first time we had got the correct man in how wrong i was but im not the only one

[The Modfather]

Haha! Apologies for being flippant mate :aok:

However... as well as it being a fairly redundant argument, I also find it deprives Fenlon of the credit he deserves (and indeed Griffiths gave him openly in the press) for improving Leigh, and calming him down. We had Griffiths in the season that we were almost relegated in 2011-12, he just wasn't that good - in fact, he missed a lot of our important end of season games (including the effective play off v Dunfermline) through stupid suspensions, so he actually harmed our cause quite a bit, and only scored 1 goal in our last 16 league games that season. Fenlon played a big part in getting his head sorted, him playing every week, and scoring lots of goals for us.

And besides, a quick look shows that Girffiths' goals single handedly won us 15 points in 2012-13, and we finished 21 points off the bottom of the league :wink:

You and your bloody stats! ;)

[eggbamyasi]

Butcher Malpas and Marsella went wrong that's it simple....

So not the players ???? So as far as your concerned it's was just them ? Simple as that ........... The players we had were lazy and pathetic imo they had a cooshie little number where they took the piss under fenlon and got paid well and did just enough with no real consequences . A manager and his team came in with a real tough way of coaching involving extreme hard work and different tactics and training to what they were used too . Unlike professional players across the world that just get on with it and embrace hard graft and are successful in there career and are real winners . The majority of the squad Barr mabey 3/4 player didn't like it , they bitched and moaned and just gave up on match day . And imo the players in that squad apart from a select few are responsible for our relegation and the management change, think this shows most due to the fact that ICT players and fans would have ran through brick wall for them and played to win with passion and fight .i agree the Manager had to go really due to relegation but imo the players are to blame for tb being sacked and the club being where we are and I'm glad a lot are no longer here . Bring on the future I just hope our new manager isn't blamed by the fans for everything and hounded out as soon as thing aren't going perfectly or tactics aren't exactly working straight away . And most of all I hope to god the club back the new guy financially to get us promoted first time of asking .
GGTTH


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[Stevie Reid]

You and your bloody stats! ;)

:greengrin

To be fair, that was only wins where he was the only scorer for us - there were other wins that he and others scored in, and we only actually won four league games that he didn't score in.

So whilst, I still stand behind what I said, and think Fenlon deserves a lot of credit, there's no doubt that we'd have been much worse off without Leigh in the team. He was in the team though, and he was well used. You could argue that with Michael Higdon's goals in the team we would have pushed Celtic for the league - we didn't, and we'll never know!

Anyway, I'll dig out the Colllins material :aok:

[matty_f]

So not the players ???? So as far as your concerned it's was just them ? Simple as that ........... The players we had were lazy and pathetic imo they had a cooshie little number where they took the piss under fenlon and got paid well and did just enough with no real consequences . A manager and his team came in with a real tough way of coaching involving extreme hard work and different tactics and training to what they were used too . Unlike professional players across the world that just get on with it and embrace hard graft and are successful in there career and are real winners . The majority of the squad Barr mabey 3/4 player didn't like it , they bitched and moaned and just gave up on match day . And imo the players in that squad apart from a select few are responsible for our relegation and the management change, think this shows most due to the fact that ICT players and fans would have ran through brick wall for them and played to win with passion and fight .i agree the Manager had to go really due to relegation but imo the players are to blame for tb being sacked and the club being where we are and I'm glad a lot are no longer here . Bring on the future I just hope our new manager isn't blamed by the fans for everything and hounded out as soon as thing aren't going perfectly or tactics aren't exactly working straight away . And most of all I hope to god the club back the new guy financially to get us promoted first time of asking .
GGTTH


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

It's good to see the players called into question here.

My theory is the timeline goes :


Butcher takes over and gets an initial lift from the players, which reflects in results
Butcher and/or Malpas start to assert their authority on the squad in training, a few don't like it and push back a bit.
Results start to falter, Butcher takes a risk and looks for a reaction from the squad by questioning if they're up to it.
The players dig their heels in, IMHO they reckon Hibs will act before relegation becomes likely.
The board don't act, Butcher has lost faith in the players and the players have given up on Butcher. Neither party is working for the other.
The players realise (late) that they're staring a relegation in the face, they start trying harder.
Results don't pick up, Butcher tries to make positive noises about the squad but everyone's too far gone to recover.
Butcher still can't get a reliable side out, he's having to go back to players he really didn't want to have to go back to.
All the players resent that.
We get relegated.
Butcher knows, and the Board know, he's going. Knowing that he's f****d his chance at a relatively big club, Butcher takes a few with him to get the last word.


Sure I'll have missed stuff there (injuries, for example, played a massive part in our downfall, as did the lack of width and a right back), but I reckon that's a not bad summary.

[Dave-O]

Lost the dressing room and never done enough in the January window.

[KDY Hibs]

The majority of the players not good enough to change tact when they came in, the management for not realizing what they were doing wasn't working.

Should've just kept things ticking over till we were safe, then do the cull at the end of the season. Instead he told 4 to find new clubs in January and then at least another 6 they weren't good enough and they'd be gone come the summer. Telling that many players mid season this was horrendous management skills and the players just downed tools, so to speak, even though professional pride and the supporters should've been enough for the players to step up and get that one win.

Agree, Telling players that they were gash and free to find other clubs before we were safe was his biggest mistake, because of that ill judged managerial call, we have a long and painfull recovery ahead while butcher will no doubt be sunning it up in Brazil, Cheers TB...

[Dashing Bob S]

I thought it was an uninspiring appointment, then I changed my mind when he started. Seemed to have a good management team, talked the talk, and early results were encouraging.

Then, post-Raith in the cup, the collapse was so spectacular and total that he couldn't have done worse had he and the squad developed a serious crystal meth habit.

[Dashing Bob S]

A tough decision for somebody just coming into the job, but the only one to possibly make when looked at on a PURELY FOOTBALLING BASIS, something we haven't done in ages. Had she not taken up the post, I've no doubt that Petrie would have kept TB, purely on short-term cost grounds.

Now he should do us all a favour and go.

[ekhibee]

It's good to see the players called into question here.

My theory is the timeline goes :


Butcher takes over and gets an initial lift from the players, which reflects in results
Butcher and/or Malpas start to assert their authority on the squad in training, a few don't like it and push back a bit.
Results start to falter, Butcher takes a risk and looks for a reaction from the squad by questioning if they're up to it.
The players dig their heels in, IMHO they reckon Hibs will act before relegation becomes likely.
The board don't act, Butcher has lost faith in the players and the players have given up on Butcher. Neither party is working for the other.
The players realise (late) that they're staring a relegation in the face, they start trying harder.
Results don't pick up, Butcher tries to make positive noises about the squad but everyone's too far gone to recover.
Butcher still can't get a reliable side out, he's having to go back to players he really didn't want to have to go back to.
All the players resent that.
We get relegated.
Butcher knows, and the Board know, he's going. Knowing that he's f****d his chance at a relatively big club, Butcher takes a few with him to get the last word.


Sure I'll have missed stuff there (injuries, for example, played a massive part in our downfall, as did the lack of width and a right back), but I reckon that's a not bad summary.

IMO that is very probably an accurate theory!

[Lewis77]

It's good to see the players called into question here.

My theory is the timeline goes :


Butcher takes over and gets an initial lift from the players, which reflects in results
Butcher and/or Malpas start to assert their authority on the squad in training, a few don't like it and push back a bit.
Results start to falter, Butcher takes a risk and looks for a reaction from the squad by questioning if they're up to it.
The players dig their heels in, IMHO they reckon Hibs will act before relegation becomes likely.
The board don't act, Butcher has lost faith in the players and the players have given up on Butcher. Neither party is working for the other.
The players realise (late) that they're staring a relegation in the face, they start trying harder.
Results don't pick up, Butcher tries to make positive noises about the squad but everyone's too far gone to recover.
Butcher still can't get a reliable side out, he's having to go back to players he really didn't want to have to go back to.
All the players resent that.
We get relegated.
Butcher knows, and the Board know, he's going. Knowing that he's f****d his chance at a relatively big club, Butcher takes a few with him to get the last word.


Sure I'll have missed stuff there (injuries, for example, played a massive part in our downfall, as did the lack of width and a right back), but I reckon that's a not bad summary.


I'd say you're not too far off the mark there.

[The_Exile]

He lost the dressing room early doors, that's the beginning, middle and end of it really.

[Hibrandenburg]

Manager says "Jump".
Players said "**** off you're just a blow through".

[Turkish Green]

The stats speak from themselves. Since the turn of the year and the 2-1 win against the yams at ER, Hibs' record in the Premiership (excluding the Play-Offs) was as follows:

P18 W2 D5 L11 F16 A34

And the league figures since 30 March and the 2-0 defeat at the PBS IS:

P7 W0 D1 L6 F2 A10

That is relegation figures for any league.


The difference between this season and last season (under Fenlon) is Griffiths' goals. Not securing Leigh on a permanent deal and bringing in James Collins instead was nothing to do with Butcher.

2012-2103 under Fenlon, Hibs scored 49 goals in the league with a GDiff of -3. Griffiths' goals papered over the cracks for Fenlon and kept Hibs in the Premiership. Fenlon should have been punted in the summer.





PETRIE OOT