(rumour) Butcher will be sacked

[Winston Ingram]

Firstly 'the truth' is not contained within one sentence or a paragraph. Simplistic, knee jerk responses will get you nowhere. Since you typed that directed at me you have continued with this train of what might loosely be termed thought on this thread. You are clearly impressed by your own debating skills. I fail to see why.

You expect? Ah such pomposity for one so young. Facts? OK.

Pat Fenlon wasn't a great manager. That we can agree on. The squad wasn't the strongest. They could play well at times (First 20 minutes against Hearts in the cup tie earlier this season) but were woefully inconsistent. Butcher takes over. After a brief period of reasonable results the team goes into meltdown. Thousands of us on a weekly basis watch aimless, inflexible tactics. Players who were competent earlier in the season look clueless, scared (See McGivern, Craig, others). A man who interviews well talking about hard work, things will change, confident about not going down. Every week gets the same. Players frightened to retain possession. Long hopeful balls followed by long hopeless balls. There are stories being circulated about his bad people management of players, some may be idle gossip, others true. We shouldn't repeat them here but they are indicative of a general malaise that so many actually circulate.

Fenlon quit because he said he couldn't take the club any further. In subsequent interviews he has parlayed variations on this general theme. To reduce that to the idea that they weren't listening to him as you have done and then claim this as objective fact is nonsense.

I am heartily sick of the 'It's not his players' line. Any reasonable manager should be able to organise a set of players he inherits to some level of organisation. I see no evidence of that. What kind of prima donna can only work with those he has cherry picked??

And finally my contention is that we would not have been relegated under Fenlon. Never rated the man frankly but the last few months are virtually unprecedented in British football for such a collapse in form and confidence.

Give him time? Why? In god's name why? I drove to Dingwall straight from work. Work suited and booted. Had to leave something at reception there and picked it up again after the game. The young guy at the desk was very friendly but he said that he could not believe how bad we were.

Would be genuinely interested in your response.


That'll do:agree::top marks

[.Sean.]

He would have brought in better than boateng and that other useless haynes. He wouldn't have frozen out Thomson and would have given mcpake a game when we were needing defensive cover.

We still wouldn't have been good, that's why he had to leave us but there's absolutely no danger we would have gone down Sith him in charge
Absolutely :agree:

Pat had his faults, and I still think the time was right for him to go.

But I've no doubt he would've signed better players in January than Butcher did and he wouldn't have been as petty and stubborn as Butcher showed himself to be regarding Thomson and McPake for instance.

Who knows where we'd have ended the season under PF, but we certainly wouldn't have went down.

[The Leith Dutch]

Firstly 'the truth' is not contained within one sentence or a paragraph. Simplistic, knee jerk responses will get you nowhere. Since you typed that directed at me you have continued with this train of what might loosely be termed thought on this thread. You are clearly impressed by your own debating skills. I fail to see why.

You expect? Ah such pomposity for one so young. Facts? OK.

Pat Fenlon wasn't a great manager. That we can agree on. The squad wasn't the strongest. They could play well at times (First 20 minutes against Hearts in the cup tie earlier this season) but were woefully inconsistent. Butcher takes over. After a brief period of reasonable results the team goes into meltdown. Thousands of us on a weekly basis watch aimless, inflexible tactics. Players who were competent earlier in the season look clueless, scared (See McGivern, Craig, others). A man who interviews well talking about hard work, things will change, confident about not going down. Every week gets the same. Players frightened to retain possession. Long hopeful balls followed by long hopeless balls. There are stories being circulated about his bad people management of players, some may be idle gossip, others true. We shouldn't repeat them here but they are indicative of a general malaise that so many actually circulate.

Fenlon quit because he said he couldn't take the club any further. In subsequent interviews he has parlayed variations on this general theme. To reduce that to the idea that they weren't listening to him as you have done and then claim this as objective fact is nonsense.

I am heartily sick of the 'It's not his players' line. Any reasonable manager should be able to organise a set of players he inherits to some level of organisation. I see no evidence of that. What kind of prima donna can only work with those he has cherry picked??

And finally my contention is that we would not have been relegated under Fenlon. Never rated the man frankly but the last few months are virtually unprecedented in British football for such a collapse in form and confidence.

Give him time? Why? In god's name why? I drove to Dingwall straight from work. Work suited and booted. Had to leave something at reception there and picked it up again after the game. The young guy at the desk was very friendly but he said that he could not believe how bad we were.

Would be genuinely interested in your response.

:top marks

Particularly the bit about needing your own players.

I think this is a crock generally and that any decent manager should be able to mould a decent group of players into a football team.

Without descending into trashing particular players I'm curious as to what Butcher needed to sign in terms of "his own players" in order to have us play a vaguely competent form of football - and lets by honest here that was all that was needed to avoid relegation: vaguely competent.

[Lester B]

Perhaps quick look back at some of the comments following our lucky win against Partick and being humped by ICT the previous game, then managed by, yes TB.
Various points made along the lines of boring football, poor defence, long balls to Collins, Fenlon doesn't know how to set up a team etc etc etc.
Posts were made 8th 9th Oct.

Right.

In October last year we played badly under Fenlon in a game and people wrote on the message boards saying we had played badly?

I'm following you so far

Because of this fact there is now a Stalinist rewriting of history because a number of us are saying that Butcher is a terrible manager?

This is where you lose me. I'm sure it's my fault. Run it by me again

Wait a minute. the triumphalism of 'yes, TB'. The game where we played badly...Butcher was the manager of that team....sooooo...he's a good manager???

Can someone help me out here?

[Lago]

Right.

In October last year we played badly under Fenlon in a game and people wrote on the message boards saying we had played badly?

I'm following you so far

Because of this fact there is now a Stalinist rewriting of history because a number of us are saying that Butcher is a terrible manager?

This is where you lose me. I'm sure it's my fault. Run it by me again

Wait a minute. the triumphalism of 'yes, TB'. The game where we played badly...Butcher was the manager of that team....sooooo...he's a good manager???

Can someone help me out here?

Think your doing pretty well on your own.

[Lester B]

Think your doing pretty well on your own.


Thanks. I'll presume that's heavy irony on your part.

Just one more question: What on earth are you talking about??

[Ronniekirk]

Right.

In October last year we played badly under Fenlon in a game and people wrote on the message boards saying we had played badly?

I'm following you so far

Because of this fact there is now a Stalinist rewriting of history because a number of us are saying that Butcher is a terrible manager?

This is where you lose me. I'm sure it's my fault. Run it by me again

Wait a minute. the triumphalism of 'yes, TB'. The game where we played badly...Butcher was the manager of that team....sooooo...he's a good manager???

Can someone help me out here?
All this talk of Stalinist re writing of History .Rod will have an eye on you on Saurday in case you are one of the looney Left Provocatours stiring up unrest amongst the masses . :wink:

[Lester B]

All this talk of Stalinist re writing of History .Rod will have an eye on you on Saurday in case you are one of the looney Left Provocatours stiring up unrest amongst the masses . :wink:

:greengrin Nonsense, there's only one loony left. He's called Rod!!

[Crazyhorse]

I cannot believe anyone can still defend Butcher. He has presided over what is potentially the most catastrophic tenure in our history. He has taken over a grim team that was in no danger whatsoever of relegation, and made them unbelievably worse. He has relegated us from the weakest ever top tier to the strongest ever second tier. Surely that is without question grounds for dismissal? His record as a manager before he came to us is also questionable. We have seen the type of football he wants to play and it is even more prehistoric than Fenlon's. He has made bizarre tactical decisions and selections which have clearly baffled the players, has been incapable of motivating the players despite all his bluster about psychological conditioning etc, and appears incredibly naive in terms of man management.

The main reason I want him out however is that if he starts next season as manager, we are always going to be minutes away from poison in the stands unless we start skelping teams immediately, including our rivals. We need to start next season united and positive and we are not going to do that with Butcher & Malpas in the dugout.

You are spot on with all of that. The fly in the ointment is the con duit admitting he blundered (again) and then shelling out to get rid of Butcher et al.

[Zazu62]

I cannot believe anyone can still defend Butcher. He has presided over what is potentially the most catastrophic tenure in our history. He has taken over a grim team that was in no danger whatsoever of relegation, and made them unbelievably worse. He has relegated us from the weakest ever top tier to the strongest ever second tier. Surely that is without question grounds for dismissal? His record as a manager before he came to us is also questionable. We have seen the type of football he wants to play and it is even more prehistoric than Fenlon's. He has made bizarre tactical decisions and selections which have clearly baffled the players, has been incapable of motivating the players despite all his bluster about psychological conditioning etc, and appears incredibly naive in terms of man management.

The main reason I want him out however is that if he starts next season as manager, we are always going to be minutes away from poison in the stands unless we start skelping teams immediately, including our rivals. We need to start next season united and positive and we are not going to do that with Butcher & Malpas in the dugout.

Agreed

[The_Horde]

If Butcher does to then RP should pay him off out of his own pocket and then pay himself off while he's at it.

[dodecar]

The sooner Butcher is ousted the better ,the man's a clown .If talk won matches ,we'd be champions of Europe.He'll have us down again imo.Three duds as big as himself were brought in on loan in January .I fear this will only be a taster of what will be signed up this summer. Butcher is a hoofball merchant,who only knows one way to play the game .The job is too big for him, We need someone who's football philosophy is in our traditions.

[Gustavo Fring]

The sooner Butcher is ousted the better ,the man's a clown .If talk won matches ,we'd be champions of Europe.He'll have us down again imo.Three duds as big as himself were brought in on loan in January .I fear this will only be a taster of what will be signed up this summer. Butcher is a hoofball merchant,who only knows one way to play the game .The job is too big for him, We need someone who's football philosophy is in our traditions.

did you ever go to hibs ICT games before butcher came here ?

the only hoofball i saw in those games came from hibs , ICT played some good football under butcher

pat fenlon engrained the hoofball into this hibs team

[dodecar]

I'm with you. I wouldn't let the idiot make one more decision on our future. :taxi

You are right . We have another Jim Duffy on our hands . Duffy wouldn't walk,he wanted money,money he hadn't earned.Butcher is going the same way A disgrace

[dodecar]

did you ever go to hibs ICT games before butcher came here ?

the only hoofball i saw in those games came from hibs , ICT played some good football under butcher

pat fenlon engrained the hoofball into this hibs team

That's true, ICT played well. Fenlon did have us playing better than Butcher though. We wouldn't have been relegated had he seen out his contract, as he should hve been allowed to do . People forget how well we played against Hearts till Stevenson scored,they couldn't get a touch,we played them off the park.Butcher doesn't suit our club ,it's a bad match.

[BSEJVT]

;4045771']And that's fair enough. Calderwood, Fenlon, Yogi etc all had long enough to build their squads and they were failing (you could argue that RP could've allowed them more room to work but that's for another thread)

Butcher has been working with a bunch of no hopers for more than half a season. A team that didn't even look like scoring when he came in. We played hearts twice with Pat and they could've played for 990 minutes and not scored.

We were toiling.

Butcher came in and got us a few wins but then the players resorted back to type.

Butcher needs time to get things his way.

Butcher needs taken outside and shot for what he did to Hibs.

In any other walk of life he would have been out the door weeks ago.

We are so frightened now of sacking managers that we would keep any old tart, so as just not to be seen to sack them.

Supposing he had had 11 deaf blind mutes ( with apologies for lack of PC here) it was his job to get something out them and get results.

He abjectly failed to do so and exhibited not one single sign of tactical awareness or ability to change a plan that patently wasn't working.

I honestly can't see why even 1 Hibs supporter is clamouring for him to stay on the basis of his performances as Hibs manager.

Referring to his blip at Ict is wishful thinking in the extreme

[Gustavo Fring]

That's true, ICT played well. Fenlon did have us playing better than Butcher though. We wouldn't have been relegated had he seen out his contract, as he should hve been allowed to do . People forget how well we played against Hearts till Stevenson scored,they couldn't get a touch,we played them off the park.Butcher doesn't suit our club ,it's a bad match.

when fenlons team played butchers team , butchers team played better . that cannot be denied . as well as playing better butchers team scored goals , fenlons team got nil

butchers team won the game comfortably , fenlons struggle to get a shot on goal

[greenpaper55]

Butcher needs taken outside and shot for what he did to Hibs.

In any other walk of life he would have been out the door weeks ago.

We are so frightened now of sacking managers that we would keep any old tart, so as just not to be seen to sack them.

Supposing he had had 11 deaf blind mutes ( with apologies for lack of PC here) it was bus job to get something out them and get results.

He abjectly failed to do so and exhibited not one single sign of tactical awareness or ability to change a plan that patently wasn't working.

I honestly can't see why even 1 Hibs supporter is clamouring for him to stay on the basis if his performances as Hibs manager.

Referring to his blip at Ict is wishful thinking in the extreme


Exactly, he must have presided over the most unlikely relegation of any team in the SPL history, i don't know of any team that has had a run of defeats and a fall from grace that happened to us. Whatever his merits at ICT he should pay the price for this before he has a chance to f*** up next season, can you imagine the fans reaction if we lose a couple of games early on in the season ? he and Petrie are branded as toxic now and the fact that both are clinging on to power does them no favours.

[Callum_62]

Exactly, he must have presided over the most unlikely relegation of any team in the SPL history, i don't know of any team that has had a run of defeats and a fall from grace that happened to us. Whatever his merits at ICT he should pay the price for this before he has a chance to f*** up next season, can you imagine the fans reaction if we lose a couple of games early on in the season ? he and Petrie are branded as toxic now and the fact that both are clinging on to power does them no favours.

Tell you what, id have loved to have seen a Man U message board four years into Fergies reign (dont think they even existed yet!)

He wouldve been branded toxic and an epic failure too im sure

Interesting read too:

"Revamping every aspect of life at the club, from training regimes to the scouting network and youth set-up, while paying particular attention to the boozing antics of a select few, Ferguson brought discipline back to the changing room. The signings of Steve Bruce, Brian McClair and Viv Anderson, among others, helped lift them to a worthy second place in the First Division, yet nine points behind champions Liverpool.
Read more at http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/119303.html#jdsO6F6a4wMS0jBt.99"

Notice any similarities?

Butcher aint to Alex Ferguson for sure - but no can be, unless they are given time

[dodecar]

when fenlons team played butchers team , butchers team played better . that cannot be denied . as well as playing better butchers team scored goals , fenlons team got nil

butchers team won the game comfortably , fenlons struggle to get a shot on goal

Certainly they had and have better players than us . You are still comparing apples and pears

[Lester B]

did you ever go to hibs ICT games before butcher came here ?

the only hoofball i saw in those games came from hibs , ICT played some good football under butcher

pat fenlon engrained the hoofball into this hibs team

Did Fenlon really ingrain hoofball into the Hibs team? If so why didn't lovely big Terry remove it? Why did he make it his one and only tactic in the end? Why do you and your ilk persist in defending the indefensible.

And while I'm here....I said this to someone in an email a few days ago but I think it's worth repeating here. I was a Mowbray fan. When he took over he said that Hibs were a real club with a real tradition and history. He also said that he wanted fans to say whether we won lost or drew that we had seen a Hibs performance.

That second Hamilton game and all those that preceded it were not Hibs performances. And they were not his players yadda yadda yadda feel free to say that as if it excuses anything. Getting rid of him will cost money. Keeping him will cost more.

[dodecar]

Tell you what, id have loved to have seen a Man U message board four years into Fergies reign (dont think they even existed yet!)

He wouldve been branded toxic and an epic failure too im sure

Interesting read too:

"Revamping every aspect of life at the club, from training regimes to the scouting network and youth set-up, while paying particular attention to the boozing antics of a select few, Ferguson brought discipline back to the changing room. The signings of Steve Bruce, Brian McClair and Viv Anderson, among others, helped lift them to a worthy second place in the First Division, yet nine points behind champions Liverpool.
Read more at http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/119303.html#jdsO6F6a4wMS0jBt.99"

Notice any similarities?

Butcher aint to Alex Ferguson for sure - but no can be, unless they are given time He sure ain't Ferguson had won in Europe with Aberdeen and was a proven manager. Butcher is a proven clown .What a ridiculous post !

[Callum_62]

Certainly they had and have better players than us . You are still comparing apples and pears

Players this management team signed on a fraction of our budget - right?

[madhatter]

I'm in no way a supporter of Butcher but unless there is substantial funds to sack the manager and bring in decent management team plus fund a total rebuild of the squad then I'd prefer him to stay.

All those stating that we'd never have been relegated had Fenlon stayed - this is not a fact - this is merely a projection. Are people forgetting we were on a downward spiral with booing after the final whistle leading up to Fenlon's resignation? He may have kept us up but who is to know...Also stating that we played better football under Fenlon is a bold statement considering we used to play sideways passes whilst 2-0 down and the crowd were screaming for the team to move forward. Pretty passing in our own half isn't better football. All I saw was keep-ball even whilst losing which may earn you draws and wins here and there but is nevertheless not the way forward.

The same people asking for Butcher will be complaining when we get a new management team that costs the club money and henceforth they bring in 4th choice rejects and build a poor team. The vicious cycle is held in place by the sacking of managers. Can no-one see this? Petrie is largely to blame and he needs to be ousted if possible but reason sensibly with regards to managers because if you get what you want, I can assure you we'll get even lesser quality on the playing side. e.g. New manager meets board to ask for players "Thank you for meeting me, I'd like these players: blah blah blah", to whence the board replies "Sorry but we will be unable to fund these transfers/wages because we've spent any disposable income we had on bringing you in. Please return with 4th or 5th choices - cheaper options.". Manager then does that and in 5-6months we'll be back here, with supporters saying "Sack McCall, he plays primitive football and is a dinosaur". Is it a difficult concept to grasp?

Deal with the facts: manager conveyor belt; 4th or 5th choice signings by all accounts.
Stop dealing with conjecture: Fenlon wouldn't have got us relegated; new manager will be better.

Sacking manager has fixed nothing. Surely that is proven by Sauzee, Hughes, Mixu, CC to mention a few? Sacking the manager didn't bring us success afterwards did it?

[The Leith Dutch]

can you imagine the fans reaction if we lose a couple of games early on in the season ?

The major reasons for why we should replace Butcher have been covered already - his inability to get a team playing anything like competent football and his appalling tactics - but the above is for me is the clincher for why we have to sack him now.

Anything other than an exceptional start and he's a deadman walking.

Short of it being done with silky football even something like say 3rd place four points behind second after six or seven games and I think he's in trouble.

I know we can't really afford to sack him now but we absolutely cannot afford to wait until October if he is to go.

Not sacking him now is gambling on him getting an excellent - possibly even brilliant - start to the season.

[dodecar]

Did Fenlon really ingrain hoofball into the Hibs team? If so why didn't lovely big Terry remove it? Why did he make it his one and only tactic in the end? Why do you and your ilk persist in defending the indefensible.

And while I'm here....I said this to someone in an email a few days ago but I think it's worth repeating here. I was a Mowbray fan. When he took over he said that Hibs were a real club with a real tradition and history. He also said that he wanted fans to say whether we won lost or drew that we had seen a Hibs performance.

That second Hamilton game and all those that preceded it were not Hibs performances. And they were not his players yadda yadda yadda feel free to say that as if it excuses anything. Getting rid of him will cost money. Keeping him will cost more.

Spot on . He's a dud . Cut our loses .Appoint again.

[Cameron1875]

All this chat about what managers team it is etc doesn't really stand up especially when Butcher had 6 weeks before transfer window opened to have a look at his squad. Cmon you can tell within 5 minutes that team was short on goals and had no pace.

I'd go as far to say his performance as manager of a club may go down as one of the worst British football has seen certainly in my lifetime (i'm 22).

[Lester B]

Tell you what, id have loved to have seen a Man U message board four years into Fergies reign (dont think they even existed yet!)

He wouldve been branded toxic and an epic failure too im sure

Interesting read too:

"Revamping every aspect of life at the club, from training regimes to the scouting network and youth set-up, while paying particular attention to the boozing antics of a select few, Ferguson brought discipline back to the changing room. The signings of Steve Bruce, Brian McClair and Viv Anderson, among others, helped lift them to a worthy second place in the First Division, yet nine points behind champions Liverpool.
Read more at http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/119303.html#jdsO6F6a4wMS0jBt.99"

Notice any similarities?

Butcher aint to Alex Ferguson for sure - but no can be, unless they are given time

Ah the Ferguson defence. Wheeled out every time there is talk of any manager going anywhere because of performance.

Straw clutching at its very worst

[Cameron1875]

Ah the Ferguson defence. Wheeled out every time there is talk of any manager going anywhere because of performance.

Straw clutching at its very worst

Its utterly incredible isn't it. If Butcher had won league titles with Inverness therefore splitting the old firm too, numerous domestic cups and beating Real Madrid in the final in Europe then we'd give him a bit more time.

Yet his CV reads. Sydney Punted, Brentford Punted, Motherwell Relegated, Inverness Relegated. Hibernian Relegated. Oh Hibs :(

[Lester B]

I'm in no way a supporter of Butcher but unless there is substantial funds to sack the manager and bring in decent management team plus fund a total rebuild of the squad then I'd prefer him to stay.

All those stating that we'd never have been relegated had Fenlon stayed - this is not a fact - this is merely a projection. Are people forgetting we were on a downward spiral with booing after the final whistle leading up to Fenlon's resignation? He may have kept us up but who is to know...Also stating that we played better football under Fenlon is a bold statement considering we used to play sideways passes whilst 2-0 down and the crowd were screaming for the team to move forward. Pretty passing in our own half isn't better football. All I saw was keep-ball even whilst losing which may earn you draws and wins here and there but is nevertheless not the way forward.

The same people asking for Butcher will be complaining when we get a new management team that costs the club money and henceforth they bring in 4th choice rejects and build a poor team. The vicious cycle is held in place by the sacking of managers. Can no-one see this? Petrie is largely to blame and he needs to be ousted if possible but reason sensibly with regards to managers because if you get what you want, I can assure you we'll get even lesser quality on the playing side. e.g. New manager meets board to ask for players "Thank you for meeting me, I'd like these players: blah blah blah", to whence the board replies "Sorry but we will be unable to fund these transfers/wages because we've spent any disposable income we had on bringing you in. Please return with 4th or 5th choices - cheaper options.". Manager then does that and in 5-6months we'll be back here, with supporters saying "Sack McCall, he plays primitive football and is a dinosaur". Is it a difficult concept to grasp?

Deal with the facts: manager conveyor belt; 4th or 5th choice signings by all accounts.
Stop dealing with conjecture: Fenlon wouldn't have got us relegated; new manager will be better.

Sacking manager has fixed nothing. Surely that is proven by Sauzee, Hughes, Mixu, CC to mention a few? Sacking the manager didn't bring us success afterwards did it?

Thanks for that. Busy just now but a couple of pointers. Anyone who disagrees with you is just using conjecture but you are dealing in facts. Abject utter nonsense. You are willfully misrepresenting other people's positions, ignoring large amounts of text, to put forward a counter argument. You not only lie about what other people have written but confidently predict what the same people will say in the future. And putting sacking of Sauzee and CC in the same sentence as if they were both firings and hence the same. Words fail even me.

[madhatter]

Its utterly incredible isn't it. If Butcher had won league titles with Inverness therefore splitting the old firm too, numerous domestic cups and beating Real Madrid in the final in Europe then we'd give him a bit more time.

Yet his CV reads. Sydney Punted, Brentford Punted, Motherwell Relegated, Inverness Relegated. Hibernian Relegated. Oh Hibs :(

How can you overlook the positivity he had at Inverness though? I'm not a supporter of Butcher but one-sided criticism is pointless and makes your opinion horrendously biased and meaningless.

I'll fill in the blanks: built a very good ICT team that would likely have qualified for European football next year had he stayed; brought in good players on pennies (Draper, Meekings, McKay to name but a few).

Once again, not a supporter of Butcher but people need to look at all of the facts, not just a "sack the manager" one-sided ravings.

[dodecar]

Players this management team signed on a fraction of our budget - right?

True ,but look at the rubbish they brought into the club in January,three duds. He found his level up north . He's not a guy he plays his teams the Hibs way.

[Lester B]

Its utterly incredible isn't it. If Butcher had won league titles with Inverness therefore splitting the old firm too, numerous domestic cups and beating Real Madrid in the final in Europe then we'd give him a bit more time.

Yet his CV reads. Sydney Punted, Brentford Punted, Motherwell Relegated, Inverness Relegated. Hibernian Relegated. Oh Hibs :(

Isn't it just? Still, he'll get his own players and he'll do all that in a couple of years though eh?

[Lester B]

How can you overlook the positivity he had at Inverness though? I'm not a supporter of Butcher but one-sided criticism is pointless and makes your opinion horrendously biased and meaningless.

I'll fill in the blanks: built a very good ICT team that would likely have qualified for European football next year had he stayed; brought in good players on pennies (Draper, Meekings, McKay to name but a few).

Once again, not a supporter of Butcher but people need to look at all of the facts, not just a "sack the manager" one-sided ravings.

Who is raving? How can you ignore the negativity he has at Hibs?

And use the term 'facts' again in your response. Go on.

[dodecar]

Isn't it just? Still, he'll get his own players and he'll do all that in a couple of years though eh?

Aye talk is cheap and Butcher for all his failings ,can talk better than anyone else .I;ll grant him that. Good managers ,manage. They organize and get people working together ,making the most of what they've got. Stepping up to a job at ER was too much for him ,just like is was for Moyes at Man U.He found his level at Inverness.

[The_Horde]

Did Fenlon really ingrain hoofball into the Hibs team? If so why didn't lovely big Terry remove it? Why did he make it his one and only tactic in the end? Why do you and your ilk persist in defending the indefensible.

And while I'm here....I said this to someone in an email a few days ago but I think it's worth repeating here. I was a Mowbray fan. When he took over he said that Hibs were a real club with a real tradition and history. He also said that he wanted fans to say whether we won lost or drew that we had seen a Hibs performance.

That second Hamilton game and all those that preceded it were not Hibs performances. And they were not his players yadda yadda yadda feel free to say that as if it excuses anything. Getting rid of him will cost money. Keeping him will cost more.

I don't think either manager wanted us to play that way.

Both like to get it to wide men quickly and get balls into the box. I think the "hoofball" is a result of players ****ting themselves to make a mistake.

The only difference between Fenlon's side and Butchers is a Fenlons side would've passed it sideways a bit before launching it forward aimlessly.

[Callum_62]

Ah the Ferguson defence. Wheeled out every time there is talk of any manager going anywhere because of performance.

Straw clutching at its very worst

Straw clutching - Butcher is 6 months into the Hibs Jobs

Ferguson was 4 years into his with little improvement

We will never give any manager time to do anything

Sack them all now, replace them with the new saviour....give him 6 months before the knives are out - sack after a year or so...repeat ad nauseam....

[madhatter]

Thanks for that. Busy just now but a couple of pointers. Anyone who disagrees with you is just using conjecture but you are dealing in facts. Abject utter nonsense. You are willfully misrepresenting other people's positions, ignoring large amounts of text, to put forward a counter argument. You not only lie about what other people have written but confidently predict what the same people will say in the future. And putting sacking of Sauzee and CC in the same sentence as if they were both firings and hence the same. Words fail even me.

I never called all views as conjecture but I see many people saying "we'd have stayed up if Fenlon had stayed" or just "sack the manager" - which is conjecture without substance. I'm not willfully misrepresenting other people's positions - where have I lied about what other people have written? People did state that we'd have stayed up if we had kept Fenlon: here is one direct quote "We wouldn't have been relegated had he seen out his contract".

I confidently predict that this forum will be largely asking for "Sack the manager" should we get a new manager and they fail - yes. Is that likely to be a lie? No. Is it something that I can easily predict? Yes. Why? Because it is no different to any other time.

Perhaps you are willfully misrepresenting the opposing argument when you slate someone who suggests that there may be similarities between Butcher and Sir Ferguson or other such counter arguments? "Straw cluching at its worse" - think you are misrepresenting there attempts at argumentation. However, like any arguer, you only see your side of things.

There's a few pointers for you and now I'm extremely busy.

[southsider]

Did Fergie get Man u relegated ? No. Did Man U just sack Moyes for being (in their eyes) a dud ? Yes. End off.

[The_Horde]

I never called all views as conjecture but I see many people saying "we'd have stayed up if Fenlon had stayed" or just "sack the manager" - which is conjecture without substance. I'm not willfully misrepresenting other people's positions - where have I lied about what other people have written? People did state that we'd have stayed up if we had kept Fenlon: here is one direct quote "We wouldn't have been relegated had he seen out his contract".

I confidently predict that this forum will be largely asking for "Sack the manager" should we get a new manager and they fail - yes. Is that likely to be a lie? No. Is it something that I can easily predict? Yes. Why? Because it is no different to any other time.

Perhaps you are willfully misrepresenting the opposing argument when you slate someone who suggests that there may be similarities between Butcher and Sir Ferguson or other such counter arguments? "Straw cluching at its worse" - think you are misrepresenting there attempts at argumentation. However, like any arguer, you only see your side of things.

There's a few pointers for you and now I'm extremely busy.

You're fighting a losing battle mate.

People don't see the bigger picture and are quite happy letting the players off Scot free. I hold the players accountable mostly for this mess, bunch of *****bags.

[Callum_62]

Did Fergie get Man u relegated ? No. Did Man U just sack Moyes for being (in their eyes) a dud ? Yes. End off.

Id say we are far more the Man Utd of the late 80s than the successful Ferguson built side of 2014

FACT

[WHUHibs]

;4047060']You're fighting a losing battle mate.

People don't see the bigger picture and are quite happy letting the players off Scot free. I hold the players accountable mostly for this mess, bunch of *****bags.

I don't know whether or not he will turn it around but I am sick of us continually sacking managers and hoping the next one will last. Rod used sackings to his advantage by appearing strong often when the heat was being turned up on him.

Butcher brought in crap in January but I'm sure during December he felt that he had turned the team around enough to get through to the summer..I would also question when he realised in January that it wasn't going to work and having already identified players was he given the money to spend.

Pure conjecture but I am willing yo wager perhaps he was not supported by Rod but in truth we will never know.

I want stability at the club, I want to judge Butcher on his new team before we can really say with Hibs he was a failure.

Strong player, England captain, do or die attitude,,,surely he will come out fighting!

[southsider]

Sadly i and thousands of other fans who watched us go down can no longer trust him.

[madhatter]

Who is raving? How can you ignore the negativity he has at Hibs?

And use the term 'facts' again in your response. Go on.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm just not blinded by it anymore. I wanted other managers sacked and its not gotten us anywhere. Well in actual fact, its got us here. I question Petrie's financial backing of each manager more than anything. Sacking managers hasn't fixed our problem. The best teams in Scotland atm have had very few managerial changes. One of the worst has had one of the worst record for sacking managers - us. I'll be happy for Butcher to leave if he walks or fails with his own team. Until then, I think its a bit hypocritical us campaigning for change at the club and keeping our own "sack the manager" calls the same. Too much do our fans want a quick fix and short term small successes. True sustainable success takes years and no manager is likely to get that from us.

[Callum_62]

I don't know whether or not he will turn it around but I am sick of us continually sacking managers and hoping the next one will last. Rod used sackings to his advantage by appearing strong often when the heat was being turned up on him.

Butcher brought in crap in January but I'm sure during December he felt that he had turned the team around enough to get through to the summer..I would also question when he realised in January that it wasn't going to work and having already identified players was he given the money to spend.

Pure conjecture but I am willing yo wager perhaps he was not supported by Rod but in truth we will never know.

I want stability at the club, I want to judge Butcher on his new team before we can really say with Hibs he was a failure.

Strong player, England captain, do or die attitude,,,surely he will come out fighting!

Dont be so sensible - SACK HIM....bring in the next lamb to the slaughter

Its now the Hibs way

[Lester B]

;4047060']You're fighting a losing battle mate.

People don't see the bigger picture and are quite happy letting the players off Scot free. I hold the players accountable mostly for this mess, bunch of *****bags.

Well thank goodness we have you who sees the bigger picture. This picture is that the players are to blame and Terry is great really no honestly. Right?

You are fighting a losing battle in some ways. We all are.

[dodecar]

I never called all views as conjecture but I see many people saying "we'd have stayed up if Fenlon had stayed" or just "sack the manager" - which is conjecture without substance. I'm not willfully misrepresenting other people's positions - where have I lied about what other people have written? People did state that we'd have stayed up if we had kept Fenlon: here is one direct quote "We wouldn't have been relegated had he seen out his contract".

I confidently predict that this forum will be largely asking for "Sack the manager" should we get a new manager and they fail - yes. Is that likely to be a lie? No. Is it something that I can easily predict? Yes. Why? Because it is no different to any other time.

Perhaps you are willfully misrepresenting the opposing argument when you slate someone who suggests that there may be similarities between Butcher and Sir Ferguson or other such counter arguments? "Straw cluching at its worse" - think you are misrepresenting there attempts at argumentation. However, like any arguer, you only see your side of things.

There's a few pointers for you and now I'm extremely busy.
Look if it's facts you want. Butcher took us down and that's a fact .the way we played in the second leg against Hamilton was a disgrace ,that's another fact . Both are compelling reasons in my book to send him packing.

[madhatter]

Look if it's facts you want. Butcher took us down and that's a fact .the way we played in the second leg against Hamilton was a disgrace ,that's another fact . Both are compelling reasons in my book to send him packing.

And 2 SC Final embarrassments plus Malmo weren't for Fenlon?

As stated if he walks or fails with own team I'm happy.

Unless someone wants to fund payoff plus compensation for decent management team plus give them substantial funds to rebuild, what are we really talking about?

[Lester B]

I never called all views as conjecture but I see many people saying "we'd have stayed up if Fenlon had stayed" or just "sack the manager" - which is conjecture without substance. I'm not willfully misrepresenting other people's positions - where have I lied about what other people have written? People did state that we'd have stayed up if we had kept Fenlon: here is one direct quote "We wouldn't have been relegated had he seen out his contract".

I confidently predict that this forum will be largely asking for "Sack the manager" should we get a new manager and they fail - yes. Is that likely to be a lie? No. Is it something that I can easily predict? Yes. Why? Because it is no different to any other time.

Perhaps you are willfully misrepresenting the opposing argument when you slate someone who suggests that there may be similarities between Butcher and Sir Ferguson or other such counter arguments? "Straw cluching at its worse" - think you are misrepresenting there attempts at argumentation. However, like any arguer, you only see your side of things.

There's a few pointers for you and now I'm extremely busy.

If you are going to make up words then please don't use an incorrect homophone in the same sentence. I'm an arguer? And you are what? A debater?

I said that I believed that Fenlon was not much cop as a manager. I doubt whether we would have actually gone down but we will never know. What we all do know is that the performances and results in 2014 thus far have been appalling and unheard of. And it's on Butcher's watch.

[Lester B]

Dont be so sensible - SACK HIM....bring in the next lamb to the slaughter

Its now the Hibs way

The Hibs way is not Hoofball.

I'm going to say this one more time and then I have a life and career to attend to.

We have had a cycle of hire and fire. I don't agree with that and have said so already. I don't think Sauzee, Mixu or Hughes should have gone. I agree that Calderwood and Duffy should have been fired and sooner than they were. Each decision on its own merits rather than simplistically stating that they are all the same.

But Butcher has shown nothing in terms of awareness, tactics, motivation or anything beyond interviewing well on the radio. This is exceptional. The circumstances are dire.

What I want is someone to convince me that the man has any ability. Don't quote a decent ICT season. What at Hibs has he shown to convince anyone that he can get us out of this mess?

[Callum_62]

The Hibs way is not Hoofball.



Since Collins left it absolutely has been

[#2 Double Tap]

Sacking manager has fixed nothing. Surely that is proven by Sauzee, Hughes, Mixu, CC to mention a few? Sacking the manager didn't bring us success afterwards did it?

Maybe because they hired the wrong managers. Sauzee > no experience, Yogi> Couldny pick a player, Mixu>best of a bad bunch, CC>words can not express, Fenlon>no experience.

[dodecar]

The Hibs way is not Hoofball.

I'm going to say this one more time and then I have a life and career to attend to.

We have had a cycle of hire and fire. I don't agree with that and have said so already. I don't think Sauzee, Mixu or Hughes should have gone. I agree that Calderwood and Duffy should have been fired and sooner than they were. Each decision on its own merits rather than simplistically stating that they are all the same.

But Butcher has shown nothing in terms of awareness, tactics, motivation or anything beyond interviewing well on the radio. This is exceptional. The circumstances are dire.

What I want is someone to convince me that the man has any ability. Don't quote a decent ICT season. What at Hibs has he shown to convince anyone that he can get us out of this mess?
Nothing at all. I agree with all you say .

[lord bunberry]

How can you overlook the positivity he had at Inverness though? I'm not a supporter of Butcher but one-sided criticism is pointless and makes your opinion horrendously biased and meaningless.

I'll fill in the blanks: built a very good ICT team that would likely have qualified for European football next year had he stayed; brought in good players on pennies (Draper, Meekings, McKay to name but a few).

Once again, not a supporter of Butcher but people need to look at all of the facts, not just a "sack the manager" one-sided ravings.

You have a go at peole for saying we probably wouldn't have been relegated under Fenlon, but you boldly predict that Inverness would have got into Europe under Butcher, how does that work?

[#2 Double Tap]

there is no real pressure at Inverness, thats the big difference for me and the reason previous managers have failed - they could not hack the pressure of a massive fan base.

[Cameron1875]

How can you overlook the positivity he had at Inverness though? I'm not a supporter of Butcher but one-sided criticism is pointless and makes your opinion horrendously biased and meaningless.

I'll fill in the blanks: built a very good ICT team that would likely have qualified for European football next year had he stayed; brought in good players on pennies (Draper, Meekings, McKay to name but a few).

Once again, not a supporter of Butcher but people need to look at all of the facts, not just a "sack the manager" one-sided ravings.

So in 4 years we'd get a top 4 finish once and nae cups. Hold me back.

I appreciate he did a very good job up there on limited resources but he got a long long time to get it right. Unfortunately for him at big clubs (christ i sound like a jambo) it just doesn't happen. There are more fans, high profile ex players, sponsors and shareholders to please/appease

[Mr White]

So in 4 years we'd get a top 4 finish once and nae cups. Hold me back

That was the outcome in the 4 years following our last relegation

[Lester B]

Since Collins left it absolutely has been

So how do you square this statement with previous ones saying that firing Butcher is a mistake, particularly when he has refined it to be our only tactic?

[worcesterhibby]

;4045414']You're entitled to your opinion but I'd urge you to look at any ICT highlights of the past 2-3 seasons. It's not the kind of "dinosaur football" you describe.

rather than just state an opinion on this one I just watched the 8 minute ICT highlights of the 2012/2013 season on Youtube. Here is a breakdown of how all their goals were scored. You can then make your own judgement about the style of football they played.

Dead Ball Cross (corner or free kick delivered into box) - 13
Hopeful Forward Punt into box - 11
Passing move leading to shot on goal - 10
penalty - 9
good cross then header/shot - 7
long range shot - 4
defender/goalie error - 3
on the break - 2
dribble then shoot - 2

as you see a big dependence on forward hump into box/ corners and penalty's

[Peevemor]

rather than just state an opinion on this one I just watched the 8 minute ICT highlights of the 2012/2013 season on Youtube. Here is a breakdown of how all their goals were scored. You can then make your own judgement about the style of football they played.

Dead Ball Cross (corner or free kick delivered into box) - 13
Hopeful Forward Punt into box - 11
Passing move leading to shot on goal - 10
penalty - 9
good cross then header/shot - 7
long range shot - 4
defender/goalie error - 3
on the break - 2
dribble then shoot - 2

as you see a big dependence on forward hump into box/ corners and penalty's

Your conculsion doesn't stand up unless you also include the lead up play to winning the corners, penalties and free-kicks. And were any of the "hopeful punts into the box" (11) actually simply good passes.

[Callum_62]

So how do you square this statement with previous ones saying that firing Butcher is a mistake, particularly when he has refined it to be our only tactic?

The past 5 managers havent managed it either

They wernt all bad managers

Thats my point, it needs to stop and someone needs to be given time to try and sort our club from top to bottom

[JustSimplyHibs]

rather than just state an opinion on this one I just watched the 8 minute ICT highlights of the 2012/2013 season on Youtube. Here is a breakdown of how all their goals were scored. You can then make your own judgement about the style of football they played.

Dead Ball Cross (corner or free kick delivered into box) - 13
Hopeful Forward Punt into box - 11
Passing move leading to shot on goal - 10
penalty - 9
good cross then header/shot - 7
long range shot - 4
defender/goalie error - 3
on the break - 2
dribble then shoot - 2

as you see a big dependence on forward hump into box/ corners and penalty's

And when you play the game and look at football highlights from around the world, a huge majority of goals are scored in under 4 touches!!!!

But you can make your own judgement on how football is played.

[Aldo]

;4047060"] You're fighting a losing battle mate. People don't see the bigger picture and are quite happy letting the players off Scot free. I hold the players accountable mostly for this mess, bunch of *****bags.

This ^^^^^^^.

Slenj the majority were happy to take a wage yet they didn't take responsibility on the pitch. They hid and down tools and showed how much they cared.... They didn't simple as that.

[Lester B]

This ^^^^^^^.

Slenj the majority were happy to take a wage yet they didn't take responsibility on the pitch. They hid and down tools and showed how much they cared.... They didn't simple as that.

If this is the case, and I don't think our views are the same on it, isn't it the role of the manager to do something about that? Isn't that what he is paid for?

[Aldo]

Can I ask this of the folk who want him binned/sacked......

Who would you have in his place. By all accounts it'll cost a fair bit to get rid.

[Golden Bear]

This ^^^^^^^.

Slenj the majority were happy to take a wage yet they didn't take responsibility on the pitch. They hid and down tools and showed how much they cared.... They didn't simple as that.

:agree:

Midway through the second half of that last game I was starting to think that the game could be subject to match fixing because of the let's say, lackadaisical attitude of our supposed "football players"

[Aldo]

If this is the case, and I don't think our views are the same on it, isn't it the role of the manager to do something about that? Isn't that what he is paid for?

Yes it is but when someone doesn't want to do what's been asked of you it's hard. The players did what they wanted and the likes of Craig who hid for the last 5 months of the season should of been told to sit in the stand for the last few months... Him and others.

Butcher hadn't covered himself in glory and was backed into a corner. If you watched you would if seen the majority of the players did nt give a flying hoot and showed no commitment or indeed effort.

Sacking another manager would be a big mistake IMHO.

This is the problem.... 6 months down the line.... New man in place and he would get binned.

It's not the answer.

[Aldo]

:agree: Midway through the second half of that last game I was starting to think that the game could be subject to match fixing because of the let's say, lackadaisical attitude of our supposed "football players"

If I was as bad at my job as they have been then I'd of been sacked.

[Lester B]

The past 5 managers havent managed it either

They wernt all bad managers

Thats my point, it needs to stop and someone needs to be given time to try and sort our club from top to bottom

Doesn't add up. How many players played under Collins and Butcher? Stevenson and anyone else? So you're saying that the culture within the players, regardless of who the manager was, has evolved to the stage when new guys coming in hoof the ball and ignore the manager as a matter of course. And no one has been able to stop that? Not one manager? And by implication it can't be done by Butcher if we follow that train of thought

Sure it needs to stop. Do you think Butcher is the man to stop it when, as I keep saying, he has used it even more with by far the worst outcome, than his predecessors ?

[worcesterhibby]

Your conculsion doesn't stand up unless you also include the lead up play to winning the corners, penalties and free-kicks. And were any of the "hopeful punts into the box" (11) actually simply good passes.

All the "hopeful punts" were high balls in the general direction of the penalty box, rather than passes straight to players, all were "mostly forward" rather than crosses from the wings.

Your right about the lead up play..especially that led to the penalties..the footage doesn't show it.

two of the goals that were passing moves leading to goals were against us ..and with our defence they don't count ! :greengrin

They did score a lot of goals from corners, crossed free kicks and penalties though.

Actually I'm not in the Butcher out camp unless I know what the alternative is. Rather keep what we have unless the alternative is definitely better. I do think his style of play is pretty direct though and always has been.

[Lester B]

Can I ask this of the folk who want him binned/sacked......

Who would you have in his place. By all accounts it'll cost a fair bit to get rid.

I freely admit I don't know and acknowledge the costs involved in getting rid of him. But what will the cost be if we start next season playing the same way? Hypothetical sure but to my mind persevering with Butcher given what we saw in 2014 is as much a gamble as anyone new would be.

[Aldo]

I freely admit I don't know and acknowledge the costs involved in getting rid of him. But what will the cost be if we start next season playing the same way? Hypothetical sure but to my mind persevering with Butcher given what we saw in 2014 is as much a gamble as anyone new would be.

Thing is he will have his own team in place. Given this his team will have to hit the ground running.

Butcher is on a hiding to nothing IMHO

[worcesterhibby]

And when you play the game and look at football highlights from around the world, a huge majority of goals are scored in under 4 touches!!!!

But you can make your own judgement on how football is played.

Your right of course. It would be interesting to do the same analysis of the goals scored by Aberdeen, Motherwell or Dundee Utd this season. I'm sure we would all be happy if we had played like them. It may be that they scored just as many goals from corners and penalties. Will try to do it later if I get the time.

[Lester B]

Yes it is but when someone doesn't want to do what's been asked of you it's hard. No one is suggesting that motivating football players is easy. But it's a core skill for anyone doing the jobThe players did what they wanted and the likes of Craig who hid for the last 5 months of the season should of been told to sit in the stand for the last few months... Him and others.

Butcher hadn't covered himself in glory and was backed into a corner. If you watched (I did watch. I also watched TB shouting and shouting to no discernable effect on the touchline)you would if seen the majority of the players did nt give a flying hoot and showed no commitment or indeed effort. So who should be motivating them to do this? The manager. Why can't he then?

Sacking another manager would be a big mistake IMHO.

This is the problem.... 6 months down the line.... New man in place and he would get binned.

It's not the answer.What is the answer. Blind faith and ignoring the last 6 months?

I don't want Butcher to fail. I have just seen nothing that gives me a grain of confidence in his ability as a manager

[Lester B]

Thing is he will have his own team in place. Given this his team will have to hit the ground running.

Butcher is on a hiding to nothing IMHO

Oh please. We've covered the 'not his players' argument to death. Any reasonably competent manager should be able to utlise the resources at his disposal to put together something coherent on the pitch

[Aldo]

Oh please. We've covered the 'not his players' argument to death. Any reasonably competent manager should be able to utlise the resources at his disposal to put together something coherent on the pitch

But what happens if the players don't want to play for him... It happens. Regardless of it being done to death.... The players are as responsible if not more than Butcher. It's their job simple as that and they didn't perform. In fact they didn't do much.

He tried and failed but from what I saw the majority of the players couldn't and didn't give a hoot.

To blame it all on butcher is wrong for me.

[Speedway]

So is Butcher still going to be our manager this summer then?

[Heedersnvolleys]

The past 5 managers havent managed it either

They wernt all bad managers

Thats my point, it needs to stop and someone needs to be given time to try and sort our club from top to bottom

What do you base that on? I think they are. None have done anything if note since they have left us, Mixu possibly the exception but he is only got the national job because he could not get another club gig. So I feel they all deserve to go when they did and TB deserves the same. The arguments for and against are at both extremes either it's the players fault or TB's. How can it not be both? The players have paid the price so should he.

I will give you we should not keep this manager merry go round going but we can't just keep the latest one without some foundation to support it. He has shown me nothing in his time to support this view as I would gladly be willing to give him the time if he had shown even glimpses of an improvement.

[Lago]

What do you base that on? I think they are. None have done anything if note since they have left us, Mixu possibly the exception but he is only got the national job because he could not get another club gig. So I feel they all deserve to go when they did and TB deserves the same. The arguments for and against are at both extremes either it's the players fault or TB's. How can it not be both? The players have paid the price so should he.

I will give you we should not keep this manager merry go round going but we can't just keep the latest one without some foundation to support it. He has shown me nothing in his time to support this view either as I would gladly be willing to give him the time he had shown even glimpses of an improvement.

If my memory serves me correctly Mixu got Finland job after a successful spell at Killie.

[Lester B]

But what happens if the players don't want to play for him... It happens. Regardless of it being done to death.... The players are as responsible if not more than Butcher. It's their job simple as that and they didn't perform. In fact they didn't do much.

He tried and failed but from what I saw the majority of the players couldn't and didn't give a hoot.

To blame it all on butcher is wrong for me.

I'm not blaming it all on Butcher. But the buck stops at him. He tried and failed I agree. So we give him another chance to try and hope he doesn't fail?

As I've said already I know of players who did and do give a hoot. Said players were also baffled by what Butcher was trying to do tactically and in terms of team selection. There are others who simply gave up or weren't up to it but we cannot and should not claim they are all the same or even state that as a majority they gave up or didn't care.

I was delighted when he was appointed. I thought he was the right appointment. But he made bad decision after another and showed no sign of learning from his mistakes. I also believe that he behaved appallingly towards the players on occasion but that's a whole different can of worms.

[Greenworld]

So is Butcher still going to be our manager this summer then?

Sorry can't tell you that it's a phase 2 or 3 decision......:cb

[Speedway]

Sorry can't tell you that it's a phase 2 or 3 decision......:cb

Aaahh OK. Thanks.

[silverhibee]

If this is the case, and I don't think our views are the same on it, isn't it the role of the manager to do something about that? Isn't that what he is paid for?

What can the manager do when the players down tools on the pitch, the same losers who had got Fenlon sacked done there best to get another manager sacked in the same season and folk think it's the managers fault, wasters, wage thiefs, losers and add in a big dollop of wooden spoon and hey presto the losers got us relegated, so for me 90% it was the players fault and 10% the managers fault, forget tactics and formations the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.

[Ronniekirk]

I never called all views as conjecture but I see many people saying "we'd have stayed up if Fenlon had stayed" or just "sack the manager" - which is conjecture without substance. I'm not willfully misrepresenting other people's positions - where have I lied about what other people have written? People did state that we'd have stayed up if we had kept Fenlon: here is one direct quote "We wouldn't have been relegated had he seen out his contract".

I confidently predict that this forum will be largely asking for "Sack the manager" should we get a new manager and they fail - yes. Is that likely to be a lie? No. Is it something that I can easily predict? Yes. Why? Because it is no different to any other time.

Perhaps you are willfully misrepresenting the opposing argument when you slate someone who suggests that there may be similarities between Butcher and Sir Ferguson or other such counter arguments? "Straw cluching at its worse" - think you are misrepresenting there attempts at argumentation. However, like any arguer, you only see your side of things.

There's a few pointers for you and now I'm extremely busy.

Conjecture without substance ? Have posted before that I think it's fair to say that Fenlon had made us hard to beat ,and while I couldn't say 100 %he would of kept us up I think it is probable he would have unless the pressure on him was getting to the point he was going to go into complete meltdown like Butcher appears to have .
Fenlons crab football could have grinded out those extra points we needed but that same style was making me not want to go and watch my team as often as I would have liked and yes I wanted him out

The issue of the cycle of managers is partly down to Petries poor judgement and then the new manager has to clear out average players and never gets his own eleven players .The quicker we empty managers the harder it is for the next manager to have his own team Butcher though has not had any of his own players apart from the three stooges that came on loan in the last day of the January Transfer window ,but don't get me started on last minute signings as I think that is a trait of Petrie .
Having said that Butchers performance went down hill so quickly and spectacularly that you can't help but have a huge question mark hanging over whether he is the right Person to turn us round .
I agree when we do get the right person we need to stick with them even if we don't get off to a great start but any other manager with Butchers record would of been sent packing by now .The fact he clearly couldn't work out what was going wrong and fix it is a concern and I am at a loss how he could have them outplaying Dundee United and descend into something unrecognisable,losing confidence and resorting to Hoofball and blind panic . He has yet to convince me he is the right man but Finances will dictate he stays and he has been the course before in bringing caley straight back up so with all the other change and unrest ongoing I think Lee Ann will stick with him and as always I will back the Team .
But we are in a difficult predicament just now and if we don't get it right and spend a second year in the Championship that's not what we need .

Like other I feel we are all posting the same issues in different ways and the sooner we get a definitive statement and clarity on what's happening the better .

Lee Ann didn't come out on day one and say I am 100 % behind the Manager but she was at East Mains when T B was telling players they could go and you would think she would have had a discussion with T B and if they were both happy with situation you would think that would have been on agenda on the first day to clear up as she would know that speculation and rumour would continue if she didn't come out and make this clear .

The protest will be exercising minds and they may want to wait and see how this pans out and gauge the strength of feeling .

Should be an interesting weekend one way or the other .

[Ronniekirk]

The past 5 managers havent managed it either

They wernt all bad managers

Thats my point, it needs to stop and someone needs to be given time to try and sort our club from top to bottom

But it needs to stop with the right person in charge and at present it's difficult to say with any certainty T B is the right man to turn us round The risk of getting stuck in a Championship is too big too take so that's why it's a difficult call to make and Lee Ann is just in the door and the Buck stops with her .Petrie wasn't daft .He knew this was coming and bolted upstairs thinking he would be out the firing line in his new Conduit Role .But as fans we said if Butchers appointment didn't work out we would hold Petrie accountable and I for one intend to do whatever I can to follow through on that .

[Lester B]

But it needs to stop with the right person in charge and at present it's difficult to say with any certainty T B is the right man to turn us round The risk of getting stuck in a Championship is too big too take so that's why it's a difficult call to make and Lee Ann is just in the door and the Buck stops with her .Petrie wasn't daft .He knew this was coming and bolted upstairs thinking he would be out the firing line in his new Conduit Role .But as fans we said if Butchers appointment didn't work out we would hold Petrie accountable and I for one intend to do whatever I can to follow through on that .

Bang on! That's what I have been trying to say. Summed up nicely sir :thumbsup:

[Lester B]

What can the manager do when the players down tools on the pitch, the same losers who had got Fenlon sacked done there best to get another manager sacked in the same season and folk think it's the managers fault, wasters, wage thiefs, losers and add in a big dollop of wooden spoon and hey presto the losers got us relegated, so for me 90% it was the players fault and 10% the managers fault, forget tactics and formations the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.

We did.

[lord bunberry]

Can I ask this of the folk who want him binned/sacked......

Who would you have in his place. By all accounts it'll cost a fair bit to get rid.

How much it will cost to get rid of Butcher shouldn't even come into it. If the board doesn't think he's the right man then he has to go.
We can't go into what is almost certainly the most important season in my lifetime with a manager who's only in a job because we can't afford to sack him.

[Callum_62]

the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.

:agree::thumbsup:

[Aldo]

What can the manager do when the players down tools on the pitch, the same losers who had got Fenlon sacked done there best to get another manager sacked in the same season and folk think it's the managers fault, wasters, wage thiefs, losers and add in a big dollop of wooden spoon and hey presto the losers got us relegated, so for me 90% it was the players fault and 10% the managers fault, forget tactics and formations the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.

Couldn't of put it better masel Silver!!

[Aldo]

How much it will cost to get rid of Butcher shouldn't even come into it. If the board doesn't think he's the right man then he has to go. We can't go into what is almost certainly the most important season in my lifetime with a manager who's only in a job because we can't afford to sack him.

Your are indeed correct. It shouldn't matter but not sure who could or would come in to replace him?

Fwiw I think he will be here for the foreseeable future then again it's Hibs we are talking about!!

[Kato]

What can the manager do when the players down tools on the pitch, the same losers who had got Fenlon sacked done there best to get another manager sacked in the same season and folk think it's the managers fault, wasters, wage thiefs, losers and add in a big dollop of wooden spoon and hey presto the losers got us relegated, so for me 90% it was the players fault and 10% the managers fault, forget tactics and formations the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.

:top marks

[Heedersnvolleys]

Bang on! That's what I have been trying to say. Summed up nicely sir :thumbsup:
I tried to say that as well but again not as well as above:greengrin

[borstalboy]

What can the manager do when the players down tools on the pitch, the same losers who had got Fenlon sacked done there best to get another manager sacked in the same season and folk think it's the managers fault, wasters, wage thiefs, losers and add in a big dollop of wooden spoon and hey presto the losers got us relegated, so for me 90% it was the players fault and 10% the managers fault, forget tactics and formations the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.

I have to agree with this. Especially on that fatal Sunday.

IMO, a footballer player should be able to take a touch, pass to a team mate, make runs, follow opposition player runs.....these are basic fundamentals of a footballer, never mind a professional footballer.

It was truly shocking how bad majority of our players were at the above.

[lord bunberry]

What can the manager do when the players down tools on the pitch, the same losers who had got Fenlon sacked done there best to get another manager sacked in the same season and folk think it's the managers fault, wasters, wage thiefs, losers and add in a big dollop of wooden spoon and hey presto the losers got us relegated, so for me 90% it was the players fault and 10% the managers fault, forget tactics and formations the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.
He could have signed new players when he had the chance, he brought in 3 players in january that were a waste of time, if he thought that the squad we had wasn't good enough to avoid the drop he should have changed things. It's important to remember that not all the players failed or didn't try bard enough, if he had brought in 4 first team players to compliment the decent players we had we wouldn't have been relegated imo. I think he thought he could just see out the season and start his rebuild in the summer, a catastrophic error in judgement on his part.

[Speedway]

He could have signed new players when he had the chance, he brought in 3 players in january that were a waste of time, if he thought that the squad we had wasn't good enough to avoid the drop he should have changed things. It's important to remember that not all the players failed or didn't try bard enough, if he had brought in 4 first team players to compliment the decent players we had we wouldn't have been relegated imo. I think he thought he could just see out the season and start his rebuild in the summer, a catastrophic error in judgement on his part.

How do you know he had the chance?

[Blaster]

[QUOTE=lord bunberry;4047605]He could have signed new players when he had the chance, he brought in 3 players in january that were a waste of time, if he thought that the squad we had wasn't good enough to avoid the drop he should have changed things. It's important to remember that not all the players failed or didn't try bard enough, if he had brought in 4 first team players to compliment the decent players we had we wouldn't have been relegated imo. I think he thought he could just see out the season and start his rebuild in the summer, a catastrophic error in judgement on his

We didn't have any budget left for this season to bring in any better. Mainly due to what Fenlon spent and also compensating inverness. The managers hands were tied in January. We can blame him for plenty but not the January window.

[ALF TUPPER]

What can the manager do when the players down tools on the pitch, the same losers who had got Fenlon sacked done there best to get another manager sacked in the same season and folk think it's the managers fault, wasters, wage thiefs, losers and add in a big dollop of wooden spoon and hey presto the losers got us relegated, so for me 90% it was the players fault and 10% the managers fault, forget tactics and formations the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.


Totally agree. Very.............

[ALF TUPPER]

Totally agree. Very.............


Phase 2.

............Well Put

:wink:

[lord bunberry]

[QUOTE=lord bunberry;4047605]He could have signed new players when he had the chance, he brought in 3 players in january that were a waste of time, if he thought that the squad we had wasn't good enough to avoid the drop he should have changed things. It's important to remember that not all the players failed or didn't try bard enough, if he had brought in 4 first team players to compliment the decent players we had we wouldn't have been relegated imo. I think he thought he could just see out the season and start his rebuild in the summer, a catastrophic error in judgement on his

We didn't have any budget left for this season to bring in any better. Mainly due to what Fenlon spent and also compensating inverness. The managers hands were tied in January. We can blame him for plenty but not the January window.
Do we know that as a fact, in previous season's when we've been in trouble we've always found the money to bring in quite a few players, Calderwood did it and so did Fenlon. I would suggest that we didn't do so this time because the manager didn't deem it necessary, as I said in my previous post a catastrophic error of judgement on his part.

[lord bunberry]

How do you know he had the chance?

We don't know he didn't either

[Speedway]

We don't know he didn't either

No we don't.

[sidjames]

The boy was dead right!

Reports that say there's -- that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.


The statement became the subject of much commentary and derision.[2]

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There are known knowns

"Known unknowns" redirects here. For the*House*episode, see*Known Unknowns.

"" is a phrase from a response*United States Secretary of Defense*Donald Rumsfeld*gave to a question at a US Department of Defense News Briefing in February 2002 about the lack of evidence linking the government of*Iraq*with the supply of*weapons of mass destruction*to terrorist groups.[1]

Rumsfeld stated:

Reports that say there's -- that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

The statement became the subject of much commentary and derision.[2]

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[Turkish Green]

I have to agree with this. Especially on that fatal Sunday.

IMO, a footballer player should be able to take a touch, pass to a team mate, make runs, follow opposition player runs.....these are basic fundamentals of a footballer, never mind a professional footballer.

It was truly shocking how bad majority of our players were at the above.

This is my first post and I have come off the pot to say that I am still shocked at the feeble display shown on play-off Sunday.

The majority of the players seemed not to care (as many knew they were leaving anyway, had other clubs already lined up and did not want to get injured). I have sympathy for the young lad, Cummings as he ran his heart out while his team mates appeared to be in cruise mode.

But what annoyed me the most was the attitude of TB, as if he had given up and was resigned to Hibs being beaten, especially after Hamilton had scored their 1st goal so early. At one point he was doing windmills with his arms in the dugout in what looked like desperation. Come the end of the 90 minutes Alex Neil had all his players together while he tried to get them prepared for ET, but what was TB doing? Remonstrating with the 4th Official. It may be that TB had given up on many of his players but while there was a chance of beating Hamilton he should have put all his efforts into trying to motivate the team, however futile that was.

If anything is needed to demonstrate the foolhardiness of Petrie's policy of signing players on loan or short term contracts it was last season. Pay peanuts get monkeys as my old gaffer used to say.

[Lester B]

Couldn't of put it better masel Silver!!

That much is true.

[Blaster]

[QUOTE=Blaster;4047616]
Do we know that as a fact, in previous season's when we've been in trouble we've always found the money to bring in quite a few players, Calderwood did it and so did Fenlon. I would suggest that we didn't do so this time because the manager didn't deem it necessary, as I said in my previous post a catastrophic error of judgement on his part.

To be honest i don't think we were in trouble in January. The slide started when Raith beat us in early February but we still should have had more than enough with what we had.

[silverhibee]

He could have signed new players when he had the chance, he brought in 3 players in january that were a waste of time, if he thought that the squad we had wasn't good enough to avoid the drop he should have changed things. It's important to remember that not all the players failed or didn't try bard enough, if he had brought in 4 first team players to compliment the decent players we had we wouldn't have been relegated imo. I think he thought he could just see out the season and start his rebuild in the summer, a catastrophic error in judgement on his part.

I was of the impression that there was no money to bring in new players in January, was he not told he could only get loan players in and i doubt we paid much for the 3 loans that we got, as i say was the money there for him to bring in 4 players that would walk straight in to our first team, Butcher wanted Rooney, did Petrie do his best to get him for the manager, it seems not.

[Peevemor]

I was of the impression that there was no money to bring in new players in January, was he not told he could only get loan players in and i doubt we paid much for the 3 loans that we got, as i say was the money there for him to bring in 4 players that would walk straight in to our first team, Butcher wanted Rooney, did Petrie do his best to get him for the manager, it seems not.

TB said that it was his choice to go for loans only in January (stating that at Inverness he did almost nothing in January), leaving the 'permanent' signings for the summer.

Whether that's true though ... :dunno:

[silverhibee]

[QUOTE=Blaster;4047616]
Do we know that as a fact, in previous season's when we've been in trouble we've always found the money to bring in quite a few players, Calderwood did it and so did Fenlon. I would suggest that we didn't do so this time because the manager didn't deem it necessary, as I said in my previous post a catastrophic error of judgement on his part.

Sorry don't buy that, Butcher would have been well aware of how pish we were and what players he would need to bring to the club in January, i think his hands were tied to bringing in quality players and he just had to hope that the players there would get him over the finishing line, why did we just not offer Rooney a contract on £3kp/w, there was no fee involved for him, we offered him a loan deal, he went to the sheep.

[silverhibee]

The boy was dead right!

Reports that say there's -- that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.


The statement became the subject of much commentary and derision.[2]

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Last edited 17 hours ago*by an anonymous user

There are known knowns

"Known unknowns" redirects here. For the*House*episode, see*Known Unknowns.

"" is a phrase from a response*United States Secretary of Defense*Donald Rumsfeld*gave to a question at a US Department of Defense News Briefing in February 2002 about the lack of evidence linking the government of*Iraq*with the supply of*weapons of mass destruction*to terrorist groups.[1]

Rumsfeld stated:

Reports that say there's -- that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things that we know that we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

The statement became the subject of much commentary and derision.[2]

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Struggling for a answer to this like.

[Lester B]

Struggling for a answer to this like.

At last something we agree on!!:wink:

[smurf]

Still no mention of TB or indeed 'manager' in the latest statement re Collins....

[sidjames]

Struggling for a answer to this like.

Just trying to makes things clear.

[jeffers]

Has the clown gone yet ?

[lord bunberry]

[QUOTE=lord bunberry;4047623]

Sorry don't buy that, Butcher would have been well aware of how pish we were and what players he would need to bring to the club in January, i think his hands were tied to bringing in quality players and he just had to hope that the players there would get him over the finishing line, why did we just not offer Rooney a contract on £3kp/w, there was no fee involved for him, we offered him a loan deal, he went to the sheep.
You may be right that we didn't have any money to spend but going by previous examples of when we were in trouble money was found. I remember reading on here that Butcher only wanted Rooney on loan, I'm not sure if that ties in with what Peevemor is talking about in his ladt post.

[silverhibee]

TB said that it was his choice to go for loans only in January (stating that at Inverness he did almost nothing in January), leaving the 'permanent' signings for the summer.

Whether that's true though ... :dunno:


A new manager just in the door and he doesn't want to bring his new players in straight away, neither wonder Petrie signed him :greengrin, nah don't believe it, Butcher wanted Rooney, we couldn't afford to give him a contract, but i will put my trust in the manager and expect to see a better striker than Rooney at ER next season.

[silverhibee]

Has the clown gone yet ?

Yeah, he signed for Shrewsbury.

[jeffers]

A new manager just in the door and he doesn't want to bring his new players in straight away, neither wonder Petrie signed him :greengrin, nah don't believe it, Butcher wanted Rooney, we couldn't afford to give him a contract, but i will put my trust in the manager and expect to see a better striker than Rooney at ER next season.

If that's the case silver, why wasn't he honest about it instead of saying he only wanted a loan deal ? More bollox spouted by TB or more bad judgement, things he's made a habit of since he joined us.

[jeffers]

Yeah, he signed for Shrewsbury.

Was that not the donkey ? :greengrin

[silverhibee]

[QUOTE=silverhibee;4047691]
You may be right that we didn't have any money to spend but going by previous examples of when we were in trouble money was found. I remember reading on here that Butcher only wanted Rooney on loan, I'm not sure if that ties in with what Peevemor is talking about in his ladt post.

Calderwood and Fenlon were both given good money it seems to bring players in January windows, yes that is what Butcher said about Rooney, whether you believe him or not is another thing.

Would be good to know how many signings he made at ICT in the January transfer window to see if it backs up his statement.

We were hardly setting the league on fire when he took over, i would put money on him wanting to bring in a few players on contracts in January but it seems that it would be loan deals only and they were pretty poor, 3 panic loan deals.

[Ronniekirk]

TB said that it was his choice to go for loans only in January (stating that at Inverness he did almost nothing in January), leaving the 'permanent' signings for the summer.

Whether that's true though ... :dunno:
I think he wanted to do as little as possible in that window to give himself more money to spend in this Transfer window ,but in hindsight that was clearly a mistake However at that point even he probably didn't think he was going to take us into free fall and ultimately melt down .
What is more uncertain I think is who were his top targets as can't think the three that finally came in were his top targets given how few games they ended up playing .So those three signings did contribute to the position we ended up in and calls into question the previous good track record of Marsella For scouting good players .The problem now is that he may have had good players lined up that don't want to come now and he is starting to have to look at other targets which won't be helping if that is the case but nowt we can do ,just need to wait and see what transpires

[Crazyhorse]

Struggling for a answer to this like.

Tears and silent laughter from me.

[Callum_62]

But what annoyed me the most was the attitude of TB, as if he had given up and was resigned to Hibs being beaten, especially after Hamilton had scored their 1st goal so early. At one point he was doing windmills with his arms in the dugout in what looked like desperation. Come the end of the 90 minutes Alex Neil had all his players together while he tried to get them prepared for ET, but what was TB doing? Remonstrating with the 4th Official. It may be that TB had given up on many of his players but while there was a chance of beating Hamilton he should have put all his efforts into trying to motivate the team, however futile that was.


I think you should watch it again

As our player slinked off like they were already relegated, Butcher looked furious - but was absolutely trying to gee them up - I believe ordering them off quick smart with shouts of 'COME ON'

He was the one that looked like he gave a damn

Meanwhile, where was the leaders on the park - we had none

[Captain Trips]

Terry gonnae leave please.

[Nomeancity]

I cannot believe anyone can still defend Butcher. He has presided over what is potentially the most catastrophic tenure in our history. He has taken over a grim team that was in no danger whatsoever of relegation, and made them unbelievably worse. He has relegated us from the weakest ever top tier to the strongest ever second tier. Surely that is without question grounds for dismissal? His record as a manager before he came to us is also questionable. We have seen the type of football he wants to play and it is even more prehistoric than Fenlon's. He has made bizarre tactical decisions and selections which have clearly baffled the players, has been incapable of motivating the players despite all his bluster about psychological conditioning etc, and appears incredibly naive in terms of man management.

The main reason I want him out however is that if he starts next season as manager, we are always going to be minutes away from poison in the stands unless we start skelping teams immediately, including our rivals. We need to start next season united and positive and we are not going to do that with Butcher & Malpas in the dugout.


potentially?

[FranckSuzy]

Struggling for a answer to this like.

:faf:

[madhatter]

I'm not fussed either way. As long as we have a plan.

However, I honestly think other rumours are more likely than Butcher being sacked at the moment.

Don't see why the club would clean out 15 players, most of which were in senior squad and do this without the man they intend to be in charge. Surely if KT and McPake were willing to stay, it'd be prudent to ask them to hang on for a week or two and we'll have new manager. Certainly not - here's the door, see ya.

What happens if this supposed new manager said "I'd really like KT and McPake for instance..."

Doesn't make sense in my head. I get the feeling that a list was handed to the board, entitled "To be shown the door" and the meeting on Friday with LD will be a list entitled "Who we need". However, I may be wrong but clearing out entire team, paying out TB, MM and SM contracts, restructuring the club massively, hire a new management team, allow them time to get targets lined up and actually in (6-8 minimum) and this all in 4-5 weeks doesn't sound feasible in my head. I'd rather them give TB, MM, SM a chance. Focus on restructuring youth department, improve relationship with fans and ultimately bring an ethos back to the club of "good football". Then should TB fail, when he likely walks for free, have something for new manager to build on. The current advert must be "Our club is a complete an utter shambles and we've been relegated, fancy being our manager?", "You're welcome to come along to the fan protest this Saturday btw!". We'd be lucky for many people to be interested atm. They would be massively interested if we recover, at least to the point where our youth department are producing better and more regularly.

I'd like a foriegn manager one day - a Spanish or French one. However, now is not the time. Better keeping Butcher for a while than attract a substandard Spanish coach because of where we are. You never achieve greatness by rushing things.

[Lewis77]

It's not going to happen is it? He writes feeling let doon!

[J-C]

All very well just going for loans in January but dear me they needed to be of a decent standard to make any difference, only loan he didn't sign eas Zoubir who was seemingly pretty decent for the U20

[superbam]

potentially?

Indeed, my mistake. Its certainly the most catastrophic I can remember!

If we can win this league in spite of the other two, i think it will go some considerable way to repairing the damage over the last few years. However, we need to be united and positive for this to happen. Hearts and the hunco will be buzzing for this league, both having undergone something of a rebirth and will proceed with their usual sense of entitlement, combined now with a siege mentality - potentially a winning combination. We cannot compete with this if we have a manager who the majority of the support, and it appears whoever from the squad that is left over, have little faith in. We start with Butcher and the support will be waiting for calamity, as will every other team. It is imperative we start with a clean slate this season.

[Lago]

What can the manager do when the players down tools on the pitch, the same losers who had got Fenlon sacked done there best to get another manager sacked in the same season and folk think it's the managers fault, wasters, wage thiefs, losers and add in a big dollop of wooden spoon and hey presto the losers got us relegated, so for me 90% it was the players fault and 10% the managers fault, forget tactics and formations the main aim was to go out and win a game of football against any team in the bottom six and the players failed big time to do that for the manager.

Spot on.

[IberianHibernian]

Relegation was a possibility from about late January and a very strong possibility from about March so I suppose club had already been looking for managers to take over since then ( in reality are clubs not always looking for managers and players to take over in emergencies or even in good times ) allowing for financial restrictions caused by relegation especially if Butcher`s contract did not include clear no compensation due in case of relegation . Also , doubt Butcher planned to be managing in lower división so he is more likely to want to leave if good opportunity comes up ( same for players ) - maybe that`s what we`re hoping for , that some club will ignore his record with us and in Australia etc and offer him a job maybe even paying compensation ( too much to hope for there ) . Maybe someone like Danny Lennon has been told to wait till Butcher`s cpmpensation is sorted out . If so at least he`d know a lot about Scottish teams but if not it`s annoying the time that is being wasted to get recruitment process under way at a time when a lot of managers are available .

[Biggie]

Hope this isn't up there with hearts gonna go bust

[ronaldo7]

He's going nowhere.

[Lewis77]

For me it looks like he's staying, I've seen no sign to make me think he's going. So I just want to know what he's going to do? Does anyone have any faith in him and his tactics? We're all obviously really depressed about what has happened, it's horrible and the biggest thing I blame Butcher for is taking us down, because for one fleeting moment I thought I could laugh my arse off at the Jambos from a lofty height, but no, we had to join them!

[erin go bragh]

Maybe Hibs put a clause in contracts saying if relegated they could be sacked without compensation being paid . Maybe its Leeane Dempster thats ordering the cull of players . They deserve their jotters for the shambolic way they managed to get us relegated .

Ggtth

[madhatter]

For me it looks like he's staying, I've seen no sign to make me think he's going. So I just want to know what he's going to do? Does anyone have any faith in him and his tactics? We're all obviously really depressed about what has happened, it's horrible and the biggest thing I blame Butcher for is taking us down, because for one fleeting moment I thought I could laugh my arse off at the Jambos from a lofty height, but no, we had to join them!

I wouldn't say I have faith in him. I have some degree of respect for him as a manager though. Players that we had didn't like him; ICT players loved him. That's why we suffered sadly. His tactics? We've not seen them at ER yet I don't think. I never recall ICT or Motherwell when he was there playing "hoofball" so I don't really know what to expect. I guess the minimum is for us to get playing well.

Football in general but supporters in particular are fickle, if we get decent players in and play good football, run away with title and cuff both Hearts and Rangers in every game we play against them - will Butcher be a failure? Very doubtful, if we come up with Rangers or someone else (except the Jambos), I'd personally love TB as it'd be a massive :na na: moment.

It's all swings and roundabouts, really. As long as the Jambos get flung off the aforementioned apparatus, whilst we are having a whale of a time and get promoted, my mood will improve substantially. Especially with the start LD has made. A year from now, we could have a radically different club.

[madhatter]

Maybe Hibs put a clause in contracts saying if relegated they could be sacked without compensation being paid . Maybe its Leeane Dempster thats ordering the cull of players . They deserve their jotters for the shambolic way they managed to get us relegated .

Ggtth

How is this any different to saying "Petrie pulls the purse strings" and is "too involved". Pretty sure Leeann isn't deciding who stays on the playing side.

[The_Horde]

Well thank goodness we have you who sees the bigger picture. This picture is that the players are to blame and Terry is great really no honestly. Right?

You are fighting a losing battle in some ways. We all are.

Naw. I've already stated that terry takes some of the blame. But he shouldn't fall on his sword because the players take the same amount of blame if not more.

[Jim44]

For me it looks like he's staying, I've seen no sign to make me think he's going. So I just want to know what he's going to do? Does anyone have any faith in him and his tactics? We're all obviously really depressed about what has happened, it's horrible and the biggest thing I blame Butcher for is taking us down, because for one fleeting moment I thought I could laugh my arse off at the Jambos from a lofty height, but no, we had to join them!

My gut reaction is to get rid of Butcher immediately. However, looking at our prospects next season (none, we'll stay in the Championship) I'm inclined to keep him and sack him after Christmas, bringing in a new manager for a serious and viable challenge for promotion in the 2015-16 season. Why bring in a new guy and condemn him to failure next season? Defeatist? No. Realistic? Yes.

[Captain Trips]

If it is the players fault for chucking it then glad they are gone. Next is to get rid of somebody capable of bring this out in players.

Tactical fail. Management fail. Total fail.

[IberianHibernian]

For me it looks like he's staying, I've seen no sign to make me think he's going. So I just want to know what he's going to do? Does anyone have any faith in him and his tactics? We're all obviously really depressed about what has happened, it's horrible and the biggest thing I blame Butcher for is taking us down, because for one fleeting moment I thought I could laugh my arse off at the Jambos from a lofty height, but no, we had to join them!I`ve got a nasty feeling you`re right though I`m sure he`ll be off at first decent offer ( unlikely since this recent fracaso won`t be forgotten for a very long time at all clubs not just at Hibs ) and what Malpass and Marsella do may be important too ( they`ve both failed too so far with alleged confrontations with players and fans and failed January signings ) . In any other club they would have been out within a day of Hamilton defeat , maybe even before playoffs but I suspect we have invested so much in compensation in October and Butcher`s wages ( and of his assistants ) and possibly in future signings ( all money that could have been invested sensibly by previous manager in winter ) that we may be stuck with our worst manager ever ( ? -any statisticians confirm ? ) .

[lord bunberry]

What would people on here think was the hardest task
1- keeping us up with the squad he inherited
2-getting us promoted from the first division
I would have said that 2 was harder than 1 and he failed to do 1.

[madhatter]

What would people on here think was the hardest task
1- keeping us up with the squad he inherited
2-getting us promoted from the first division
I would have said that 2 was harder than 1 and he failed to do 1.

2 depends on players brought in. Be difficult but Hearts and Rangers won't be great shakes.1 was always going to difficult especially when he honestly called the players poor.

[madhatter]

If it is the players fault for chucking it then glad they are gone. Next is to get rid of somebody capable of bring this out in players.

Tactical fail. Management fail. Total fail.

Can I ask what "bring this out in players" is referring to? As far as I'm aware the 15 player clear out has cost nothing in compensation. Which is excellent. However unless you are funding TB leaving then talking so casually about a hefty bill is a bit silly. Tactical fail? Can't be proven as players could have just said "I'm not listening to a word you're saying gaffer, you said I was ****"
Management fail? ICT players would have walked over broken glass for TB and MM. Our players, even after TB protecting them in press conferences treated him with contempt. Total fail, yes, relegation was but does this lie with 1 manager. No. We've been flirting with relegation for years. Unfortunately for butcher he has been the man to take us down.

Its simple. Do I know Butcher will do well next season? No. Do I know another manager will be better? No. Does this uncertainty merit cash blown on it? No, not yet. Don't forget the main thing, the Certainty, that Petrie is largely to blame. Do you and all these sack Butcher lot not realise how big a summer we have even without a new management team coming in?

[Crazyhorse]

I`ve got a nasty feeling you`re right though I`m sure he`ll be off at first decent offer ( unlikely since this recent fracaso won`t be forgotten for a very long time at all clubs not just at Hibs ) and what Malpass and Marsella do may be important too ( they`ve both failed too so far with alleged confrontations with players and fans and failed January signings ) . In any other club they would have been out within a day of Hamilton defeat , maybe even before playoffs but I suspect we have invested so much in compensation in October and Butcher`s wages ( and of his assistants ) and possibly in future signings ( all money that could have been invested sensibly by previous manager in winter ) that we may be stuck with our worst manager ever ( ? -any statisticians confirm ? ) .

A bad start to next season and he will be axed leaving the next poor sod who gets the call from the Con... er I mean Dempster ... another hopeless task. The logical thing to do would be to get rid now and try to break this cycle.

[madhatter]

A bad start to next season and he will be axed leaving the next poor sod who gets the call from the Con... er I mean Dempster ... another hopeless task. The logical thing to do would be to get rid now and try to break this cycle.

Logical thing is to get rid now and try to break this cycle? What break the cycle of sacking managers by sacking the manager. I'm not Spock...I'm really struggling with this logic...

[majorhibs]

Can I ask what "bring this out in players" is referring to? As far as I'm aware the 15 player clear out has cost nothing in compensation. Which is excellent. However unless you are funding TB leaving then talking so casually about a hefty bill is a bit silly. Tactical fail? Can't be proven as players could have just said "I'm not listening to a word you're saying gaffer, you said I was ****"
Management fail? ICT players would have walked over broken glass for TB and MM. Our players, even after TB protecting them in press conferences treated him with contempt. Total fail, yes, relegation was but does this lie with 1 manager. No. We've been flirting with relegation for years. Unfortunately for butcher he has been the man to take us down.

Its simple. Do I know Butcher will do well next season? No. Do I know another manager will be better? No. Does this uncertainty merit cash blown on it? No, not yet. Don't forget the main thing, the Certainty, that Petrie is largely to blame. Do you and all these sack Butcher lot not realise how big a summer we have even without a new management team coming in?

You, sir, are a complete & utter slaver. You've been making things up for days! Butcher has proven himself an inept clown at football management. Hibs are relegated. That we ALL know, unfortunately.

[madhatter]

You, sir, are a complete & utter slaver. You've been making things up for days! Butcher has proven himself an inept clown at football management. Hibs are relegated. That we ALL know, unfortunately.

Thank you for your civilised response. What have I been making up exactly? I seriously hope the club ignore such one-sided views. I've been honest to admit I don't know if he'll do well next season, I also don't know if any other manager will do well. You then call me a slaver and say I've making things up? Is there a need? I guess I'm a slaver that understands if we sack Butcher (payoff) plus get new management team, that could fail, come Christmas we'll be back here and the club will be even more skint with even less fans.

[erskine-hibby]

You, sir, are a complete & utter slaver. You've been making things up for days! Butcher has proven himself an inept clown at football management. Hibs are relegated. That we ALL know, unfortunately.

So inept to make ICT one of the top teams in the SPL, on a fraction of the budget the likes of hibs have. What the f### then have we had in charge.?

[Lewis77]

My gut reaction is to get rid of Butcher immediately. However, looking at our prospects next season (none, we'll stay in the Championship) I'm inclined to keep him and sack him after Christmas, bringing in a new manager for a serious and viable challenge for promotion in the 2015-16 season. Why bring in a new guy and condemn him to failure next season? Defeatist? No. Realistic? Yes.



I have a horrible feeling we're putting off the inevitable in relation to Butcher and that he may not last all next season. Nevertheless, if he does a good job, he does a good job.

[Captain Trips]

Can I ask what "bring this out in players" is referring to? As far as I'm aware the 15 player clear out has cost nothing in compensation. Which is excellent. However unless you are funding TB leaving then talking so casually about a hefty bill is a bit silly. Tactical fail? Can't be proven as players could have just said "I'm not listening to a word you're saying gaffer, you said I was ****"
Management fail? ICT players would have walked over broken glass for TB and MM. Our players, even after TB protecting them in press conferences treated him with contempt. Total fail, yes, relegation was but does this lie with 1 manager. No. We've been flirting with relegation for years. Unfortunately for butcher he has been the man to take us down.

Its simple. Do I know Butcher will do well next season? No. Do I know another manager will be better? No. Does this uncertainty merit cash blown on it? No, not yet. Don't forget the main thing, the Certainty, that Petrie is largely to blame. Do you and all these sack Butcher lot not realise how big a summer we have even without a new management team coming in?

I am not interested in ICT. At Hibernian total and complete failure. At Hibs it is simple from all I have seen. Failed on every front. A disgraceful record and a disgrace he is still here about to embark on more destruction. Get him out the door.

Why is ICT relevant as a marker. There seems to be more gravitas placed on this than what has actually occurred in last 7 months. ICT different club, players, situation. What has went on this season is what counts. What strikers do at Hibs is what counts not how many they got at other clubs. Butcher has left nothing to suggest anything positive is on way. Not a jot.

[madhatter]

I am not interested in ICT. At Hibernian total and complete failure. At Hibs it is simple from all I have seen. Failed on every front. A disgraceful record and a disgrace he is still here about to embark on more destruction. Get him out the door.

What if the next manager fails? Which is likely with less money due to sacking. Sack him to? Then the next manager doesn't have much money. They do poor. Sack. Poor. Sack.

I'm not a Butcher supporter BTW. I'm a stop the ****ing deja vu that will gradually cripple this club supporter. I want my club to survive and prosper. Not sack itself to oblivion.

[Scottie]

What if the next manager fails? Which is likely with less money due to sacking. Sack him to? Then the next manager doesn't have much money. They do poor. Sack. Poor. Sack.

I'm not a Butcher supporter BTW. I'm a stop the ****ing deja vu that will gradually cripple this club supporter. I want my club to survive and prosper. Not sack itself to oblivion.

So the solution is keep the man that has the worst (if I'm not mistaken) record as a Hibs manager ever because you want an end to the sack culture ? If we stick by this clown we'll all the watching 3rd tier scottish football next year at ER.

Get him the **** out of our club NOW.

[madhatter]

So the solution is keep the man that has the worst (if I'm not mistaken) record as a Hibs manager ever because you want an end to the sack culture ? If we stick by this clown we'll all the watching 3rd tier scottish football next year at ER.

Get him the **** out of our club NOW.

I give up trying to my message over, people can't grasp it. My solution is to leave it up to those who know our financial condition and personally speak to TB about his plans. I don't leave it up to me or you or any fans. Fans constantly want success now and rightfully look short-term. We as a club need to think longterm, financially and about the changes that need made to the less visible infrastructure. Not "sack him". Once again, I do not support Butcher but do support a change of our notorious sack the manager ways.

[majorhibs]

I give up trying to my message over, people can't grasp it. My solution is to leave it up to those who know our financial condition and personally speak to TB about his plans. I don't leave it up to me or you or any fans. Fans constantly want success now and rightfully look short-term. We as a club need to think longterm, financially and about the changes that need made to the less visible infrastructure. Not "sack him". Once again, I do not support Butcher but do support a change of our notorious sack the manager ways.

Aye, good idea IMO, give up! It seems nobody can grasp your message. Butcher out. Person with basic knowledge of Scottish fitba & management in!

[Jones28]

So the solution is keep the man that has the worst (if I'm not mistaken) record as a Hibs manager ever because you want an end to the sack culture ? If we stick by this clown we'll all the watching 3rd tier scottish football next year at ER.

Get him the **** out of our club NOW.

You can't continually sack managers! It has to stop somewhere!

How can such a **** manager take ICT from the first division to the top 6 in 3 years on a shoestring budget?

If that doesn't show some sort of managerial potential then what does?

So get rid of butcher, then what? Well lets fork out the compensation for him first and poof! There goes next seasons player budget. Then lets bring in another manager, which will be hard enough what with us being a first division side, as spend what little we may have left on compensation to his team. Then it's another transitional season where players come and go and we bumble along doing nothing great and going nowhere. So then we're back at square one.

Mistakes have been made, telling players they weren't going to be here next season, being too defensive and playing one striker and continually playing Ryan McGivern and Nelson bein the main ones. But give him a second chance ffs, what have we got to lose? He should get the summer to rebuild at least, then it'll be clearer as games kick off.

[Green Cabbage 7]

Sorry guys, but I'm not in the get rid of butcher campaign, yes maybe Petrie for this mess, I feel that yes butcher maybe took a gamble on the character of the players and it back fired, big time, but this was a continuos merry go round, you could say calderwoods clowns to fenlons flops, the point is we were soft and for a long time, I think it just came to a head under butcher he tested there character and found the poison within the club, I hope he can get rid of it and take us on from here, yes it was hoof ball tactics not nice to watch, but our players could not even execute the tactic properly, that it was just lumped anywhere, as we all know even the mutants along the road seemed to manage hoofball but get results from it, that's the difference between us we like fast flowing on the deck football, they muppets will resort to anything but accept it, even if the golden generation went through a sticky patch we would back them, why? All because the football was marvellous and a real joy to watch. I hope to see that football again and very soon!

[madhatter]

Aye, good idea IMO, give up! It seems nobody can grasp your message. Butcher out. Person with basic knowledge of Scottish fitba & management in!

Whatever mate. Glad you aren't the new CEO that's for sure. Mob theory doesn't work in management sadly. Im glad im not CEO either because i couldnt be bothered with this **** everday and im a diehard Hibs fan. Have a good night either way.

[Scottie]

I give up trying to my message over, people can't grasp it. My solution is to leave it up to those who know our financial condition and personally speak to TB about his plans. I don't leave it up to me or you or any fans. Fans constantly want success now and rightfully look short-term. We as a club need to think longterm, financially and about the changes that need made to the less visible infrastructure. Not "sack him". Once again, I do not support Butcher but do support a change of our notorious sack the manager ways.
None of us want a sack culture at the club as we all want a long term successful manager at the helm. You say as a club we need to look long term to achieve anything well I'm afraid I'm fed up waiting as all I have seen in my 40 years of supporting us is 2 CIS cup wins. This record for a club the supposed size and structure of ours is quite TRUELY shocking.
You state " leave it to the people who know our financial condition and talk to TB about his plans". Can I ask you WHY ?
The first person out the door should have been Butcher followed by Petrie after what we all had to endure last season. We need a new manager I'm afraid simple as that !

[Scottie]

You can't continually sack managers! It has to stop somewhere!

How can such a **** manager take ICT from the first division to the top 6 in 3 years on a shoestring budget?

If that doesn't show some sort of managerial potential then what does?

So get rid of butcher, then what? Well lets fork out the compensation for him first and poof! There goes next seasons player budget. Then lets bring in another manager, which will be hard enough what with us being a first division side, as spend what little we may have left on compensation to his team. Then it's another transitional season where players come and go and we bumble along doing nothing great and going nowhere. So then we're back at square one.

Mistakes have been made, telling players they weren't going to be here next season, being too defensive and playing one striker and continually playing Ryan McGivern and Nelson bein the main ones. But give him a second chance ffs, what have we got to lose? He should get the summer to rebuild at least, then it'll be clearer as games kick off.
You've answered it all for yourself there. Mistakes have been made and all by Butcher since he arrived at ER but for some reason you want to give him the summer ? What the **** has he done to deserve getting the summer ? **** all so he needs to go.
And before you get started on player budgets look what has been achieved by teams like Dundee and Hamilton this year with no budgets.

[Dashing Bob S]

I feel that we are finally getting to the root of the problem by focusing on Petrie, and I'm loathe to encourage anybody to take their eye off the ball. But anyone who thinks that Butcher isn't partly culpable for this agonising farce needs their heads examined.

[madhatter]

None of us want a sack culture at the club as we all want a long term successful manager at the helm. You say as a club we need to look long term to achieve anything well I'm afraid I'm fed up waiting as all I have seen in my 40 years of supporting us is 2 CIS cup wins. This record for a club the supposed size and structure of ours is quite TRUELY shocking.
You state " leave it to the people who know our financial condition and talk to TB about his plans". Can I ask you WHY ?
The first person out the door should have been Butcher followed by Petrie after what we all had to endure last season. We need a new manager I'm afraid simple as that !

You ask why? Because it is their ****ing jobs ffs. You are a fan. As am I. If fans ran this club, we'd end up in the gutter financially. What manager would come into our vile "get the results in the first 6 months or else" environment? If I was a manager I'd steer clear. We're hardly blessed with choices and rightly so, we're championship club and one that has hostile environment. You've been watching for 40 years and you've seen very little success, yet you think this one last sacking will bring it or something? Is it one sacking to rule them all? If he is deemed inappropriate to lead this club forward by Leeann then fine, I'm happy. If he is, I'll support him and his new team.

[Scottie]

You ask why? Because it is their ****ing jobs ffs. You are a fan. As am I. If fans ran this club, we'd end up in the gutter financially. What manager would come into our vile "get the results in the first 6 months or else" environment? If I was a manager I'd steer clear. We're hardly blessed with choices and rightly so, we're championship club and one that has hostile environment. You've been watching for 40 years and you've seen very little success, yet you think this one last sacking will bring it or something? Is it one sacking to rule them all? If he is deemed inappropriate to lead this club forward by Leeann then fine, I'm happy. If he is, I'll support him and his new team.
Your an easily pleased fan then pal.
The question I asked was why would you ask Butcher his plans for next season after he took us on our worst run as a club ever !
We will all support the manager whoever he is when the season starts I just happen to think TB is not the man for the job and I would have hoped he would have done the decent thing and walked after our relegation.

[The_Horde]

I feel that we are finally getting to the root of the problem by focusing on Petrie, and I'm loathe to encourage anybody to take their eye off the ball. But anyone who thinks that Butcher isn't partly culpable for this agonising farce needs their heads examined.

Absolutely agree. He's guilty of a few mistakes but I feel he still needs a chance to prove what he can do with his own players.

He has to get it right now though or he's on a hiding to nothing. People are going to have to be patient as we're likely to have a whole new team who might take a wee while to gel.

[madhatter]

Your an easily pleased fan then pal.
The question I asked was why would you ask Butcher his plans for next season after he took us on our worst run as a club ever !
We will all support the manager whoever he is when the season starts I just happen to think TB is not the man for the job and I would have hoped he would have done the decent thing and walked after our relegation.

Not easily pleased. Not remotely. I'm annoyed as any. However, the only occupation I hold with regards to Hibs is as a supporter. If I can't do that then I guess I'd not be attached in any way. Butcher may or may not be the way forward. I do not and you don't either. Its roll of the dice stuff. Butcher may want to help the club out of the mess he took full blame of. Even after everything he still protected players. He is to blame. How much, is an opinion.

We'll just need to see what the days ahead hold. If they do sack Butcher I'd be unhappy if names hadn't been lined up. We don't have time to sit on our hands. 4-5 weeks at very most until preseason should start.

[Crazyhorse]

Logical thing is to get rid now and try to break this cycle? What break the cycle of sacking managers by sacking the manager. I'm not Spock...I'm really struggling with this logic...

Break the cycle of blundering along with lame duck managers until we are part way through the season and then dumping them (to save the conduit's skin). Then inviting someone else to take over the previous incumbent's team with little money or time to build anything that might get us out of the downward spiral. I would add that Butcher should have already gone for another reason, he managed to relegate his from a position where it was virtually impossible to do so. Within an hour of the 2nd leg of the play off he should have done the honourable thing and resigned. If he refused he should have been forced out. That's my view if you think he demonstrated enough ability to be allowed to remain as our club's manager then that's fine you are entitled to that view. I think he will get found out again next season and will be punted.

[madhatter]

Break the cycle of blundering along with lame duck managers until we are part way through the season and then dumping them (to save the conduit's skin). Then inviting someone else to take over the previous incumbent's team with little money or time to build anything that might get us out of the downward spiral. I would add that Butcher should have already gone for another reason, he managed to relegate his from a position where it was virtually impossible to do so. Within an hour of the 2nd leg of the play off he should have done the honourable thing and resigned. If he refused he should have been forced out. That's my view if you think he demonstrated enough ability to be allowed to remain as our club's manager then that's fine you are entitled to that view. I think he will get found out again next season and will be punted.

One question. All recent managers have had good reputation in football in one way or another but become lame ducks at Hibs as you put it. What do you suggest is the root of this problem? What is the right manager?

[Scottie]

Not easily pleased. Not remotely. I'm annoyed as any. However, the only occupation I hold with regards to Hibs is as a supporter. If I can't do that then I guess I'd not be attached in any way. Butcher may or may not be the way forward. I do not and you don't either. Its roll of the dice stuff. Butcher may want to help the club out of the mess he took full blame of. Even after everything he still protected players. He is to blame. How much, is an opinion.

We'll just need to see what the days ahead hold. If they do sack Butcher I'd be unhappy if names hadn't been lined up. We don't have time to sit on our hands. 4-5 weeks at very most until preseason should start.
:aok: GGTTH mate

[The Green Goblin]

For me it looks like he's staying, I've seen no sign to make me think he's going. So I just want to know what he's going to do? Does anyone have any faith in him and his tactics? We're all obviously really depressed about what has happened, it's horrible and the biggest thing I blame Butcher for is taking us down, because for one fleeting moment I thought I could laugh my arse off at the Jambos from a lofty height, but no, we had to join them!

The players ARE also very much to blame.

You can laugh your arse off at the jambos, (if that's what you want to do) because, relegation aside, they are still in a much worse situation than us.

[Speedway]

Was Butcher let go at last weeks EM meeting and the club has used the time to find his replacement which they'll announce tomorrow whilst Butcher has a gag order on him and that's why he hasn't been mentioned in the last two official statements?

[Callum_62]

Was Butcher let go at last weeks EM meeting and the club has used the time to find his replacement which they'll announce tomorrow whilst Butcher has a gag order on him and that's why he hasn't been mentioned in the last two official statements?

is that a guess....??

Butchers complete silence/not being mentioned is a bit weird

If we were looking for replacements, surely the press wouldve picked up on it tho

[bingo70]

is that a guess....??

Butchers complete silence/not being mentioned is a bit weird

If we were looking for replacements, surely the press wouldve picked up on it tho

Not if it's Stuart McCall, dempster had a good relationship with him at well and he might think he's done as much as he can at well. Sounds like his budget will be getting cut there so may fancy a new challenge.

Normally I don't think he'd drop down a division but with the rangers and hearts being there it's not that big a deal.

Anybody know if Motherwell have signed any new players for next season?

[Callum_62]

Not if it's Stuart McCall, dempster had a good relationship with him at well and he might think he's done as much as he can at well. Sounds like his budget will be getting cut there so may fancy a new challenge.

Normally I don't think he'd drop down a division but with the rangers and hearts being there it's not that big a deal.

Anybody know if Motherwell have signed any new players for next season?

signed a keeper and a few current player contract extensions

Id be amazed if that happened

Also - why not just say that Butcher has been sacked last week?

[KeithTheHibby]

signed a keeper and a few current player contract extensions

Id be amazed if that happened

Also - why not just say that Butcher has been sacked last week?


Perhaps giving LD her place. If it had been announced last week it would have looked like Petries decision. Announcing his sacking now looks like Dempsters decision.

[Hibeesmad]

Was Butcher let go at last weeks EM meeting and the club has used the time to find his replacement which they'll announce tomorrow whilst Butcher has a gag order on him and that's why he hasn't been mentioned in the last two official statements?

The club have done very well in keeping that quiet if that was the case

[smurf]

It is very strange that in a statement on the main site on the first day of the new CEO there was no mention of 'Terry Butcher' or indeed any reference to 'Manager'.

Some would argue that any Manager is the most important person at the club and therefore attach great importance to the relationship that of the CEO and manager. Therefore, I am very surprised that there was no "Looking forward to working with the manager..." comment.

And furthermore the lack of any comments from TB on the departure of James Collins.

[blackpoolhibs]

I am not interested in ICT. At Hibernian total and complete failure. At Hibs it is simple from all I have seen. Failed on every front. A disgraceful record and a disgrace he is still here about to embark on more destruction. Get him out the door.

Why is ICT relevant as a marker. There seems to be more gravitas placed on this than what has actually occurred in last 7 months. ICT different club, players, situation. What has went on this season is what counts. What strikers do at Hibs is what counts not how many they got at other clubs. Butcher has left nothing to suggest anything positive is on way. Not a jot.

Exactly, he got very lucky at ICT, and its funny how they are the only club thats quoted when folk go on about his managerial career.

Nobody seems to mention the 18 unlucky years he's had, somehow they go very quiet when thats brought up?

[Speedway]

is that a guess....??

Butchers complete silence/not being mentioned is a bit weird

If we were looking for replacements, surely the press wouldve picked up on it tho
Yes, it's a guess.

[Lester B]

Exactly, he got very lucky at ICT, and its funny how they are the only club thats quoted when folk go on about his managerial career.

Nobody seems to mention the 18 unlucky years he's had, somehow they go very quiet when thats brought up?

:top marks

Or cling like a drowning man to the idea that once he gets 'his own players' everything will be rosy

[Heedersnvolleys]

Some would argue that any Manager is the most important person at the club and therefore attach great importance to the relationship that of the CEO and manager. Therefore, I am very surprised that there was no "Looking forward to working with the manager..." comment.

And furthermore the lack of any comments from TB on the departure of James Collins.

First sentence, you would think so but not at our club!

Second, I live in hope he is away but I think the lack comments is that he is on his hols for a rest before he has a jolly in Brazil.

[Turkish Green]

Or cling like a drowning man to the idea that once he gets 'his own players' everything will be rosy
What was clear from last season (and from hid past history) is that TB can only work with his own players to fit into his own style of hoofball. Where he has taken over as manager at clubs, he has not had success in the 1st season and has been sacked on occasions because of it.

Let's hope bringing in his own players brings success.



PETRIE OUT

[easty]

Exactly, he got very lucky at ICT, and its funny how they are the only club thats quoted when folk go on about his managerial career.

Nobody seems to mention the 18 unlucky years he's had, somehow they go very quiet when thats brought up?

A group of players he brought together, playing the way he asked them to play. Aye that's luck right enough.

[Beefster]

Was Butcher let go at last weeks EM meeting and the club has used the time to find his replacement which they'll announce tomorrow whilst Butcher has a gag order on him and that's why he hasn't been mentioned in the last two official statements?

I'd be very surprised. For a start, irrespective of any gagging orders, it would still get out via the press or the Interweb. Butcher and Malpas are very friendly with lots of press folk. Secondly, Butcher was allowed to 'decide' to not renew a whole host of contracts on the same day as he met Dempster/Rodders.

[madhatter]

Just for everyone's benefit, most people who are sticking up for Butcher because ultimately apart from performances on pitch we've got no idea what's gone on at the club. No manager in the world could motivate players who collectively said "You called me ****, **** off". Whether this happened I don't know. I do know players performances hit an all time low after butcher's criticism.

However, the reason this time around I want to give this manager a shot, we've been relegated, attendances are going to plummet, we're unlikely to get shot of Petrie, we've just abnew CEO and there are going to be vast changes conducted. 4-5 weeks isn't enough time for us to achieve greatness and piling on pressure on a new manager now is likely to result in even greater failure.

[blackpoolhibs]

A group of players he brought together, playing the way he asked them to play. Aye that's luck right enough.

Ok then the other 18 years of management was not unlucky, he was useless for all those years. 18 years of being utterly hopeless and 18 months of very good management.

With a record like that, he should have never been anywhere near the job at Easter Road.

[Callum_62]

Ok then the other 18 years of management was not unlucky, he was useless for all those years. 18 years of being utterly hopeless and 18 months of very good management.

With a record like that, he should have never been anywhere near the job at Easter Road.

I may be going mad, but how is it 18 years (espec when excluding Inverness?)

Teams managed
1990–1992 Coventry City
1993 Sunderland
2002–2006 Motherwell
2006–2007 Sydney FC
2007 Brentford
2009–2013 Inverness Caledonian Thistle
2013– Hibernian

[SMAXXA]

he's no gona be sacked

[BH Hibs]

Was Butcher let go at last weeks EM meeting and the club has used the time to find his replacement which they'll announce tomorrow whilst Butcher has a gag order on him and that's why he hasn't been mentioned in the last two official statements?

I can't see that being the case. Butcher's got far too many friends in the media for that to remain silent and not to be leaked out gagging clause or not

[Callum_62]

he's no gona be sacked

Will he walk though?

Or you reckon he will defo start the season with us?

is that a ITK comment....or is there no one left to get info from??! :greengrin

[BH Hibs]

he's no gona be sacked

I don't think so either unfortunately. Hope I'm wrong though.

[Lester B]

Just for everyone's benefit, Oh that's a bad start. A number of us aren't buying the apologism so you start with that. I don't feel any benefit from reheating of poor arguments most people who are sticking up for Butcher because ultimately apart from performances on pitch Which surely is by far the most important aspect of being a football manager?we've got no idea what's gone on at the club. Speak for yourself. There are rumours which a lot of us have heard. May all be BS of course I'll give you thatNo manager in the world could motivate players who collectively said "You called me ****, **** off". Whether this happened I don't know. No you don't but having stated it you tie yourself to it as an implicationI do know players performances hit an all time low after butcher's criticism.Woefully simplistic. Change criticism to arrival and we may have a point of agreement

However, the reason this time around I want to give this manager a shot, we've been relegated, attendances are going to plummet, we're unlikely to get shot of Petrie, we've just abnew CEO and there are going to be vast changes conducted. 4-5 weeks isn't enough time for us to achieve greatness But 7 months of Butcher was enough to achieve utter mediocrityand piling on pressure on a new manager now is likely to result in even greater failure.Define a greater failure. We've just been relegated to a strong second tier

No one wants Butcher to go through spite or because we think firing managers is the fall back answer to a problem. From a purely personal point of view I've already listed a number of managers whom I wish had stayed. I was delighted when he was appointed. I thought he was a man, who having had a poor managerial record in the past, had learned from experience. He hasn't clearly. I was wrong

[greenpaper55]

What if LD wants him gone and RP wants him to stay, who will be the winner there ?.

[blackpoolhibs]

I may be going mad, but how is it 18 years (espec when excluding Inverness?)

Teams managed
1990–1992 Coventry City
1993 Sunderland
2002–2006 Motherwell
2006–2007 Sydney FC
2007 Brentford
2009–2013 Inverness Caledonian Thistle
2013– Hibernian

Sorry you are right, it's not 18 year's it's 14 plus his time as number 2 at Scotland.

[Callum_62]

Sorry you are right, it's not 18 year's it's 14 plus his time as number 2 at Scotland.

FOUR MORE YEARS, FOUR MORE YEARS....

no....?

:wink::greengrin

[JustSimplyHibs]

I may be going mad, but how is it 18 years (espec when excluding Inverness?)

Teams managed
1990–1992 Coventry City - Youngest player manager in the league, saved them from relegation, then got them to a 13th placed finish the following season - sacked and this was seemingly a suprise
1993 Sunderland - Another player/manager role at a club worse than ours - he kept them in the league just
2002–2006 Motherwell - A club in financial difficulties - still is, praised by the media and his peers on the job he done, managed to get to a cup final (mind you Fenlon got us to two).
2006–2007 Sydney FC - Sacked by a club with a lot of off field problems, points deducted for breaking the leagues wage barrier, poor football - sound familiar?
2007 Brentford - resigned after pressure and calls for a former boss to take over again.
2009–2013 Inverness Caledonian Thistle - took them from 1st division football to the top of the SPL.
2013– Hibernian

The guy has some managieral history all at clubs who were struggling off the field - bar one, ICT. I hope he stays. Our problem is/was in the board room.

[SMAXXA]

The guy has some managieral history all at clubs who were struggling off the field - bar one, ICT. I hope he stays. Our problem is/was in the board room.

Butcher is far from exempt from any criticism, he was the problem last season in getting us relegated not Petrie.

[Lester B]

The guy has some managieral history all at clubs who were struggling off the field - bar one, ICT. I hope he stays. Our problem is/was in the board room.

Err he took ICT from First Division to top of SPL. Doesn't this ignore the fact that it was him that took them from SPL to the First Division.

So none of his previous managerial posts where he performed badly were down to anything except other factors which prevented his genius and talent from shining through.

I've heard worse theories. Not recently, mind you.

[madhatter]

No one wants Butcher to go through spite or because we think firing managers is the fall back answer to a problem. From a purely personal point of view I've already listed a number of managers whom I wish had stayed. I was delighted when he was appointed. I thought he was a man, who having had a poor managerial record in the past, had learned from experience. He hasn't clearly. I was wrong


Seriously mate, stop nit-picking everything I type - we are both Hibs fans that is the main thing here and we both want whats best for the club. You may be wrong, I may be wrong. As stated if club have plan, with new manager and new players and everything else - and it is well thought through, I would be happy for Butcher to leave. I just don't want us sacking a manager then scrambling round in the dark for 2-3 weeks. We just don't have the time for that - if we don't give another manager a decent time to bring in players plus get a good 4 weeks of preseason with them, they are, sadly, likely to fail and we're going to be even more unforgiving since we're in Championship. This club hasn't had a good preseason for years. Constant change or late signings (Collins brought in horrendously late last year for instance). We need bulk of players brought in early, giving them time to gel and get friendly games under their belt.

I'm not trying to reheat any argument also, I'm simply trying to say that through our own means we are blinkered to what we believe. On both sides. There are decent arguments to be had both sides and it's getting a bit silly now. Whatever is deemed best for the club by Leeann is what I'll get behind this summer. No guarentees in football. Butcher could turn it around, we could go flying up to the prem again; or he could be sacked and another manager could do this. Or either could fail. We all, without doubt, do not know any of this for a fact.

We all care but I'm honest enough to say, we all, including myself, are slavering a wee bit.

[jacomo]

Exactly, he got very lucky at ICT, and its funny how they are the only club thats quoted when folk go on about his managerial career.

Nobody seems to mention the 18 unlucky years he's had, somehow they go very quiet when thats brought up?

Many of us - including yourself - focused on his achievements at ICT when he was being appointed, and glossed over his record elsewhere. I specifically remember you praising the way his ICT team played.

There is no need for blame or recrimination on here. What's important is whether he is the right person for the job now, and quite rightly we've all got serious reservations, based on his six months with Hibs. That's what matters.

[brian6-2]

A group of players he brought together, playing the way he asked them to play. Aye that's luck right enough.

:agree:


also unbeaten away from home for a year. nothing lucky about that.

[JustSimplyHibs]

Butcher is far from exempt from any criticism, he was the problem last season in getting us relegated not Petrie.

Ask yourself was he really the problem????? IMO Petrie is the problem for getting us relegated no Butcher.

Our problem for getting relegated was not having a goal-scorer... near enough every game under Butcher so far we have by far created more goal scoring chances than the other team, had a couple of decisions go against us... Our first eleven panicked - Butcher cannae control their fears, in fact our near enough hundred players that have came and gone over 7 years got us relegated and not one man who has been with us for 6 months.

Let's see what Butcher can do with Dempster supporting him. Sacking another manager just means another season where the club can not finacially support the first team, another season lost.

[JustSimplyHibs]

Err he took ICT from First Division to top of SPL. Doesn't this ignore the fact that it was him that took them from SPL to the First Division.

So none of his previous managerial posts where he performed badly were down to anything except other factors which prevented his genius and talent from shining through.

I've heard worse theories. Not recently, mind you.

In whose eyes? Like our board sacking managers before AGM time just to get the fans off their backs... you might fall for it, i don't - so i'll back Butcher not the board with Petrie still there - he must sell his shares IMO

Are you seriously trying to tell me what happens off the pitch at clubs doesnae affect what goes on, on it?????

[Keith_M]

Ok then the other 18 years of management was not unlucky, he was useless for all those years. 18 years of being utterly hopeless and 18 months of very good management.

With a record like that, he should have never been anywhere near the job at Easter Road.


Did you welcome his appointment at the time?

[MrSmith]

Did you welcome his appointment at the time?

I welcomed his appointment at the time but given what has been on offer lately, I've changed my mind.

However, I endorse the view that players are to blame for our demise but Mr Petrie and Butcher also share in this.

In my view, it is time for a clean sweep, boardroom, management and most of the players. We need to get Hibernian minded people back on board and a mindset that knows what it means to play for our club. I know some on the board are Hibernian minded but they are still part of the current problem existing at ER and EM. Hopefully LD will tear through the place and set us up properly again but RP, TB and their teams need to go!

[Lester B]

Seriously mate, stop nit-picking everything I typeNit picking? Hardly. Nit picking is defined in the OED as....pause....see below - we are both Hibs fans that is the main thing here and we both want whats best for the club. You may be wrong, I may be wrong. As stated if club have plan, with new manager and new players and everything else - and it is well thought through, I would be happy for Butcher to leave. I just don't want us sacking a manager then scrambling round in the dark for 2-3 weeks. We just don't have the time for that - if we don't give another manager a decent time to bring in players plus get a good 4 weeks of preseason with them, they are, sadly, likely to fail and we're going to be even more unforgiving since we're in Championship. This club hasn't had a good preseason for years. Constant change or late signings (Collins brought in horrendously late last year for instance). We need bulk of players brought in early, giving them time to gel and get friendly games under their belt.

I'm not trying to reheat any argument also, I'm simply trying to say that through our own means we are blinkered to what we believe. On both sides. There are decent arguments to be had both sides and it's getting a bit silly now. Whatever is deemed best for the club by Leeann is what I'll get behind this summer. No guarentees in football. Butcher could turn it around, we could go flying up to the prem again; or he could be sacked and another manager could do this. Or either could fail. We all, without doubt, do not know any of this for a fact.

We all care but I'm honest enough to say, we all, including myself, are slavering a wee bit.

Points well made and taken on board. Only fair that I apologise you for getting OTT. Sorry.

Passions are running high at the moment and yes we are all starting to slaver a bit. Except me - I know you know I am being ironic when I type that:wink:

If Butcher is a success we'll all be delighted. Some of us believe that it will happen; some that it simply will never happen in a million years. We are all at different points on that spectrum on here. You and I are at different points and I think as you say there are no guarantees at this early stage. But the waiting is a killer isn't? Never simultaneously dreaded and looked forward at the same time to a new season before. I think we all feel a bit like that :flag:

[Turkish Green]

I may be going mad, but how is it 18 years (espec when excluding Inverness?)

Teams managed
1990–1992 Coventry City
1993 Sunderland
2002–2006 Motherwell
2006–2007 Sydney FC
2007 Brentford
2009–2013 Inverness Caledonian Thistle
2013– Hibernian

I would like to include a post from Speedway going back to 31 October 2013 , from this Thread on the New Hibs Manager...

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?273210-New-Hibs-Manager




Butcher is in the lead - why?

Coventry - Sacked Win % 33
Sunderland - Sacked Win % 30
Motherwell - Resigned Win % 34
Sydney FC - Sacked Win % 39
Brentford - Sacked Win % 21
Scotland - Sacked
ICT - Relegated then promoted now mediocre since 2009. Win % 40 (Lost more than he's won in the SPL)

Average Win % 36

Fenlon Win % 53 (At Hibs 36%)

Why is Butcher the right man?


As much relevance now as then.

[SMAXXA]

Ask yourself was he really the problem????? IMO Petrie is the problem for getting us relegated no Butcher.

Our problem for getting relegated was not having a goal-scorer... near enough every game under Butcher so far we have by far created more goal scoring chances than the other team, had a couple of decisions go against us... Our first eleven panicked - Butcher cannae control their fears, in fact our near enough hundred players that have came and gone over 7 years got us relegated and not one man who has been with us for 6 months.

Let's see what Butcher can do with Dempster supporting him. Sacking another manager just means another season where the club can not finacially support the first team, another season lost.

i don't need to ask myself, I believe it was butchers fault for us getting us relegated this season regardless of the previous seasons and years of crap which we can't ignore,in the bigger picture. But ultimately taking the team from where we were when he took over to getting us relegated is his fault and no one else's. Yes it's the players on the park but the buck stops with the manager regardless of the CEO etc.

[lord bunberry]

I welcomed his appointment at the time but given what has been on offer lately, I've changed my mind.

However, I endorse the view that players are to blame for our demise but Mr Petrie and Butcher also share in this.

In my view, it is time for a clean sweep, boardroom, management and most of the players. We need to get Hibernian minded people back on board and a mindset that knows what it means to play for our club. I know some on the board are Hibernian minded but they are still part of the current problem existing at ER and EM. Hopefully LD will tear through the place and set us up properly again but RP, TB and their teams need to go!

It's funny because I didn't welcome his appointment, but after listening to him talking and reading his interviews in the paper I really changed my opinion about him. Results and performances since the turn of the year have made me realise my original view of him was the right one.

[JustSimplyHibs]

i don't need to ask myself, I believe it was butchers fault for us getting us relegated this season regardless of the previous seasons and years of crap which we can't ignore,in the bigger picture. But ultimately taking the team from where we were when he took over to getting us relegated is his fault and no one else's. Yes it's the players on the park but the buck stops with the manager regardless of the CEO etc.

You said it!!!!

And its this mismanagement that needs sorting at this moment in time - starting with Petrie selling his shares, not the removal of another manager which will effectivly kill off our championship winning season due to lack of funds and the problem still remaining at boardroom level.

[Lester B]

In whose eyes? Like our board sacking managers before AGM time just to get the fans off their backs... you might fall for it, i don't - so i'll back Butcher not the board with Petrie still there - he must sell his shares IMO

Are you seriously trying to tell me what happens off the pitch at clubs doesnae affect what goes on, on it?????

I have just apologised to someone else on this thread for being overly picky about analysing their posts and I stand by that apology for previous behaviour. I will therefore choose my words carefully...

I don't think I have fallen for anything. I've already said the kneejerk firing is a bad idea and have cited examples of previous managers who I thought should have stayed. A blanket never fire/always fire before AGM simply does not work. Each case on its own merits and even if firing is thea greed strategy doing so before the AGM is a cowardly populist act. I do wonder whether although you quoted my post whether you are arguing with me at all. I haven't said or implied anything about agreeing with such a strategy. What am I accused of falling for?

I'm not seriously trying to tell you, or indeed anyone else, that on your second point. I was a little heavy handed on the irony admittedly in a previous post but the intention wasn't to tell anyone that nor imply it. I really don't see the chain of thought on that

[BH Hibs]

Ask yourself was he really the problem????? IMO Petrie is the problem for getting us relegated no Butcher.

Our problem for getting relegated was not having a goal-scorer... near enough every game under Butcher so far we have by far created more goal scoring chances than the other team, had a couple of decisions go against us... Our first eleven panicked - Butcher cannae control their fears, in fact our near enough hundred players that have came and gone over 7 years got us relegated and not one man who has been with us for 6 months.

Let's see what Butcher can do with Dempster supporting him. Sacking another manager just means another season where the club can not finacially support the first team, another season lost.

Yes Butcher was the problem in getting us relegated he couldn't get a the team to win one more match in about ten attempts. He also continued to play a system the players didn't believe in or couldn't play then also dropped players for weeks at a time only to bring them back in after being told they weren't good enough then those players also disappeared again a quickly as they were brought in. These were all Butcher's fault not Petrie's. Petrie is to blame for the state the club has got into for the last five or more years and the constant succession of poor teams and management appointments recruiting both from the bargain bucket. Both should go IMHO don't care what Butcher did with ICT anymore it's not relevant after what he did with us this season his players or not. Butcher out Petrie out.

[BH Hibs]

i don't need to ask myself, I believe it was butchers fault for us getting us relegated this season regardless of the previous seasons and years of crap which we can't ignore,in the bigger picture. But ultimately taking the team from where we were when he took over to getting us relegated is his fault and no one else's. Yes it's the players on the park but the buck stops with the manager regardless of the CEO etc.

Agree 100%:thumbsup:

[Captain Trips]

i don't need to ask myself, I believe it was butchers fault for us getting us relegated this season regardless of the previous seasons and years of crap which we can't ignore,in the bigger picture. But ultimately taking the team from where we were when he took over to getting us relegated is his fault and no one else's. Yes it's the players on the park but the buck stops with the manager regardless of the CEO etc.

Correct it is irrelevant about Petrie etc regarding Butchers ability. He took over a mediocre team regardless who assembled it and made it worse. Out the door.

[JustSimplyHibs]

Ok, so your adimant that you want Butcher gone even if this means we would have to pay up his dues which would have a knock on affect this seasons budget and bearing in mind that fans are suggesting they wont be back until Petrie is totally gone will impact even more...

I can see why you want Butcher gone, it's understandable however, punting a manager whom has experience of playing and winning that league and punting him would cost us an absoulute fortune to do is mind-numbing to say the least and would see this club struggle for years to come IMO of course, cause i cannae see Petrie going anywhere soon.

Stick to the Petrie Out first guys.

[Lago]

Points well made and taken on board. Only fair that I apologise you for getting OTT. Sorry.

Passions are running high at the moment and yes we are all starting to slaver a bit. Except me - I know you know I am being ironic when I type that:wink:

If Butcher is a success we'll all be delighted. Some of us believe that it will happen; some that it simply will never happen in a million years. We are all at different points on that spectrum on here. You and I are at different points and I think as you say there are no guarantees at this early stage. But the waiting is a killer isn't? Never simultaneously dreaded and looked forward at the same time to a new season before. I think we all feel a bit like that :flag:
Nice to see this apology. I stopped posting on .net 2 days ago because I really felt positions were being taken and things said which were regretable. Following hibs relegation passions have been running high, but at the end of the day we all want our club back where it should be at the top.:hibees

[SMAXXA]

Ok, so your adimant that you want Butcher gone even if this means we would have to pay up his dues which would have a knock on affect this seasons budget and bearing in mind that fans are suggesting they wont be back until Petrie is totally gone will impact even more...

I can see why you want Butcher gone, it's understandable however, punting a manager whom has experience of playing and winning that league and punting him would cost us an absoulute fortune to do is mind-numbing to say the least and would see this club struggle for years to come IMO of course, cause i cannae see Petrie going anywhere soon.

Stick to the Petrie Out first guys.

I havnt actually said wether I want him sacked or not I'm just pointing out his failings since he took the job. Of which there has been many. Having David Gill in charge wouldn't have prevented us being relegated, the buck stops with the manager for that.

[madhatter]

Points well made and taken on board. Only fair that I apologise you for getting OTT. Sorry.

Passions are running high at the moment and yes we are all starting to slaver a bit. Except me - I know you know I am being ironic when I type that:wink:

If Butcher is a success we'll all be delighted. Some of us believe that it will happen; some that it simply will never happen in a million years. We are all at different points on that spectrum on here. You and I are at different points and I think as you say there are no guarantees at this early stage. But the waiting is a killer isn't? Never simultaneously dreaded and looked forward at the same time to a new season before. I think we all feel a bit like that :flag:

No need to apologise, we've all got steam coming out our ears at the moment. I'll reply in kind though, I also apologise for some rubbish I put on this thread.

Yeah, I'm partially glad we're slavering to be honest. Shows we care. Just would prefer it, from all parties involved, remained civilised because after all, we'll be here long after Butcher, Petrie et al are gone. We've all posted utter nonsense on here at times, not in terms of no supporting facts but in terms of blindly ignoring the other side of the coin. I'm trying to stay on the fence but at times, like us all, I get drawn to one side or another depending on how I'm feeling. We all need to chill a bit I think - its the club we love but until things change, the club don't care about us so no point giving ourselves coronaries!

The wait is indeed a killer. When relegation first sunk in for me, I thought "I'm not going to any more games, that's it...". 2 weeks later, I'm at "When does pre-season start and who are the new players? How much is a ST going to be?". Dreadfully exciting is a canny way of putting it certainly!

Debate here is fine, but remember folks - we are the fans of Hibs. We have but 1 duty, support the club. The club may seem like Butcher, Petrie etc. But the way I view the club, is the heritage. So make sure above all else we show common decency towards each other and dignity during these tough times. Things could get worse but in our current predicament, at one of the all time lows, we're on the 2nd floor of a 16 storey building, and from where I'm looking there is a lot more above us than below us.

[erin go bragh]

Butcher should not be sacked . He should do the honourable thing and resign . He has failed miserably as manager of our famous club . He has managed ( no irony intended ) to make Fenlon look like Jose Mourinho for gods sake . Which in itself is no mean feat . Worst Hibs manager in my living memory .

Ggtth

[JustSimplyHibs]

I havnt actually said wether I want him sacked or not I'm just pointing out his failings since he took the job. Of which there has been many. Having David Gill in charge wouldn't have prevented us being relegated, the buck stops with the manager for that.

And i'm merely pointing out that getting rid of a manager whom has two years leaft of his contract to go coupled with fans saying they wont be back at ER untill Petrie is completly away just does not make financial sense. Especially when those two years worth of salary would be taken straight out the player budget - and boy do we need every penny and more to win this league.

You have a point, yes the manager picks the team however, being handed a squad that had a lot of long term injuries or players injuring themselves during warm-ups, no goal-scorer, and players bar the youngsters that hid... I can see why Butcher belittled his sqaud - i would to and sure as hell the fans at ER done it every week and have done for years!!!!!!

FWIW having all this going against him i.e. long-term injuries, lack of goal-scorers and players hiding... to still create more goal scoring chances than the other team in the majority of games including against the Champs and runners up with a patched-up team he inherited and a club failing at board room level - i think he deserves this window with a board determined to get his first signings and not the 4th choices to see what he comes up with.

IMO - If Butcher goes the Problem remains!

[clerriehibs]

Sack him.

I've hated the managerial merry go round.

But no-one who can take our club from relatively safe mid-table, mid-season, to relegated deserves another shot at it.

No-one

[JJP]

Pat Fenlon was not sacked by the board. He was hounded out by the media and the fans. I've even seen posters who called me a Hearts fan for defending Fenlon lending their support to Butcher. He deserves to be sacked more than any other Hibs manager in my time following the club. It doesn't matter though, I don't believe we can afford to sack him. I think we will need to stick with him so that the club can keep as much of the budget for the playing staff as possible.

[Paisley Hibby]

Sack him.

I've hated the managerial merry go round.

But no-one who can take our club from relatively safe mid-table, mid-season, to relegated deserves another shot at it.

No-one

I agree 100%. If Butcher had any shred of self-respect he'd have resigned. Looks like he's holding out for a dishonorable pay off.

[147lothian]

Ask yourself was he really the problem????? IMO Petrie is the problem for getting us relegated no Butcher.

Our problem for getting relegated was not having a goal-scorer... near enough every game under Butcher so far we have by far created more goal scoring chances than the other team, had a couple of decisions go against us... Our first eleven panicked - Butcher cannae control their fears, in fact our near enough hundred players that have came and gone over 7 years got us relegated and not one man who has been with us for 6 months.

Let's see what Butcher can do with Dempster supporting him. Sacking another manager just means another season where the club can not finacially support the first team, another season lost.

You certainly have a point, which is why I've been holding off, saying anything about Butcher until he has his own team, doesn't mean that I agree with hoof ball tactics but getting rid of him when he still has two years of his contract makes no sense at all, if you ever needed a complete clear out, and to build a team from scratch, Butcher and more importantly SM are who you can trust to spend the money their record a ICT speaks for itself, we will have to see what Butcher can do under Dempster, but one thing is for sure, petrie has no place at Easter Road, if he thinks he can fade into the background as conduit between club and absent owner, its time for the fans to make him think again, Saturday at 11:00am at the back of the main stand will be the start.

[TornadoHibby]

Ask yourself was he really the problem????? IMO Petrie is the problem for getting us relegated no Butcher.

Our problem for getting relegated was not having a goal-scorer... near enough every game under Butcher so far we have by far created more goal scoring chances than the other team, had a couple of decisions go against us... Our first eleven panicked - Butcher cannae control their fears, in fact our near enough hundred players that have came and gone over 7 years got us relegated and not one man who has been with us for 6 months.

Let's see what Butcher can do with Dempster supporting him. Sacking another manager just means another season where the club can not finacially support the first team, another season lost.

I think that you should pay much more attention to what happens on the football pitch during games and then perhaps you will see what is going on in the round rather than on selected memory flashes which you have clearly been having! :agree:

I'm not going to waste my time repeating much of what has been said on here over the past couple of weeks in particular but for weeks even before that about the effectiveness of the management team in not sculpting wins out of matches particularly in 2104! :rolleyes:

Their lack of effectiveness alongside their willingness to sacrifice the skills of decent players whilst they "made them pay" for speaking up at training about this thing or that to "teach them a lesson" for daring to get "too big for their boots" was instrumental in ensuring that we did not win enough points to keep us in the SPFL! :agree:

They have had their opportunity to manage Hibs IMO and came up as "also rans" in terms of their quality and performance in a scale of 1 to whatever number you choose to set the top of the scale at! :agree:

I haven't been on here much over the past few days but can barely believe what I am reading today about people thinking that Butcher can turn us from Championship quality to a SPFL top place team "once he gets his own players in" even if he has generated a situation where the budget for doing that was significantly reduced at his own doing! :rolleyes:

[Lester B]

Nice to see this apology. I stopped posting on .net 2 days ago because I really felt positions were being taken and things said which were regretable. Following hibs relegation passions have been running high, but at the end of the day we all want our club back where it should be at the top.:hibees

Thank you for the kind words.

[Lago]

Thank you for the kind words.

When the dust settles on all the turmoil the one thing we all must ensure is that Hibs are never placed in a situation like this again.

[Hibstrooper]

He isn't going anywhere.

2 interviews in the papers today (McPake and Vine on Collins) where both stated Butcher specifically said in the Monday aftermath meeting that neither player were in his plans for next season.

He wouldn't have been allowed to make they decisions had his future been in any doubt.

[clerriehibs]

When the dust settles on all the turmoil the one thing we all must ensure is that Hibs are never placed in a situation like this again.

Been there, done that.

[jimmyboco1875]

Right guys what's our thoughts, keep him? Sack him? Another ex player talking bout butcher/malpas again. It's obvious he's came in and made the team dislike him but should we give him a chance with his own players that are going to respect him abit more or is he just clueless? I think we should keep him cos the way we were playing end if season is not actually how butchers team plays

[Waxy]

Right guys what's our thoughts, keep him? Sack him? Another ex player talking bout butcher/malpas again. It's obvious he's came in and made the team dislike him but should we give him a chance with his own players that are going to respect him abit more or is he just clueless? I think we should keep him cos the way we were playing end if season is not actually how butchers team playsIt's in the balance.We've made cases to sack him and keep him.I reckon whatever the club decide to do we must accept and get behind as much as we can.

[Michael]

Let's just keep him. He's been a disaster so far but I still think he can turn things round given time. Maybe. Probably not though.

[3pm]

He can **** off.

[jimmyboco1875]

It's in the balance.We've made cases to sack him and keep him.I reckon whatever the club decide to do we must accept and get behind as much as we can.

Yes defo. I just can't understand how he changed his tactics to high long balls when he came to hibs even though we have on the deck footballers

[TornadoHibby]

Let's just keep him. He's been a disaster so far but I still think he can turn things round given time. Maybe. Probably not though.

Which part of that should we take as your view as you seem to give every possible view!? :confused:

[Lago]

I really don't understand why this thread has been started. We already have a Butcher to sacked thread which has attracted every possible opinion under the sun, it has also created a degree of animosity between Hibs fans, so why the rehash???

[Greenworld]

Sacked hopeless manager

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[jimmyboco1875]

I really don't understand why this thread has been started. We already have a Butcher to sacked thread which has attracted every possible opinion under the sun, it has also created a degree of animosity between Hibs fans, so why the rehash???

Wanted to talk tactics and stuff ken....

[nribs]

Hate to see anybody loose their jobs but I don't think I can trust this guy to build us a football team, plus a manager who has managed to divide the support as much as Butcher has in such a short time will not be afforded much time from our fans next season. For these reasons I think he has to go.

[Gustavo Fring]

Wanted to talk tactics and stuff ken....


:faf:

[Lewis77]

The thing with Terry is, I couldn't stand the man when he was a player. When I was a kid he was the poster boy for England with the blooded bandage. I always thought he was a dirty player at rangers and the fact he played for rangers possibly marred my opinion of his footballing ability

Therefore, when I knew he was to be manager I wasn't filled with joy. I just thought he was the wrong fit for the club. Nevertheless, I realised my gut feeling was more than likely down to my afore mentioned dislike of the player whilst growing up and he had done a good good at ICT so I was optimistic. Furthermore, in interviews I actually thought he came over quiet well, as a straight forward affable man.

Now we are down!

I keep looking at what he has done, the reported problems with players and so on.
Now that there is a clear out will he get players in who will play for him and therefore build a good side or should he have been a good enough manager to get the players who were there to perform?

I'd love to see John Collins back but that isn't going to happen and Butcher is going nowhere in the meantime, so I just hope he does well.

[ekhibee]

Right guys what's our thoughts, keep him? Sack him? Another ex player talking bout butcher/malpas again. It's obvious he's came in and made the team dislike him but should we give him a chance with his own players that are going to respect him abit more or is he just clueless? I think we should keep him cos the way we were playing end if season is not actually how butchers team plays
Which ex-player?

[Lewis77]

Hibs and Terry Butcher has never sat well with me. It hasn't worked so far but I do hope I can be proved wrong.

[BoltonHibee1875]

Get him out. Clueless!


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[Captain Trips]

Right guys what's our thoughts, keep him? Sack him? Another ex player talking bout butcher/malpas again. It's obvious he's came in and made the team dislike him but should we give him a chance with his own players that are going to respect him abit more or is he just clueless? I think we should keep him cos the way we were playing end if season is not actually how butchers team plays

When he joined they all became his players if he cannot manage players correctly to give him 100% then he is not good enough. He caused us to get relegated therefore should have been punted and even punted a few weeks before it happened as with him in charge it had a certain inevitability about it all in the last few weeks.

OK Agent Butcher return to base.

[Michael]

Which part of that should we take as your view as you seem to give every possible view!? :confused:

I think he can turn it round but I doubt he will.

I think I can win the lottery, but I doubt I will.

[Kato]

Been there, done that.


You mean "Been there, tried to do that but didn't." Sadly.

[Glorious St Pat]

Butcher out.

Like a previous poster said....wrong pedigree (he was a Hun)....not Hibs class...and a football philosophy from the dark ages.

New change from top to bottom required. Would go cap in hand and bring Collins back.

[Jonnyboy]

Butcher out.

Like a previous poster said....wrong pedigree (he was a Hun)....not Hibs class...and a football philosophy from the dark ages.

New change from top to bottom required. Would go cap in hand and bring Collins back.

Wow :faf:

[bingo70]

Wow :faf:

The first bit you've highlighted is ridiculous but nothing wrong with the second part imo.