At a loss to understand…

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Among many reasons why im not sure what to think at the moment, is my complete lack of understanding on whether a coach is good or not.

I was reading TheCat’s comments about what Kenny Miller thinks about Butcher, and I’ve also heard from others (particularly Smaxxa) allude to senior players there not thinking that Butcher has a clue (or Malpas for that matter).

Yet, he did do a grand job at ICT. He has played at an exceptionally high level, likewise Malpas who also played under one of the great Scottish managers).
Also, when im unsure what to believe, I try to trust my own judgement – and the ICT team who played us off the park at ER earlier this year were fit, energetic, had terrific movement, a good defensive shape and looked an excellently coached team.

George Burley, a guy with a good managerial track record, obviously rates him as he made him assistant manager for Scotland.
Yet equally, when I judge what I see, I can honestly say I have never seen such a poor performance as yesterday from a Hibs team, relative to what was at stake and the opposition we were playing against. So I have to question his motivation skills.

And similarly, we are a team with no discernible pattern of play, and under TB and MM every single player (not an exaggeration) has gotten worse in terms of performances.
So what do we trust? Track record (good) or the here and now (awful)? Why is it that players etc can have such wildly divergent opinions of the same people, both of whom are so decorated as players?
Are fitba players just inherently a bunch of gossiping prima-donnas, or is there no smoke without fire?

I don’t believe for a minute that Butcher and Malpas (regardless of flaws etc) tell the players to go out and punt it the way they were facing, which seemed to be the tactics yesterday. Likewise, I don’t for a minute think that he told the team to set-up with what appeared to me to be verging on a 9-0-1 formation yesterday. Yet that’s what happened, and has been happening.

This is important, because im genuinely undecided as to whether or not Butcher should remain. But ever since the john Collins debacle, I struggle to have any faith in the judgement and professionalism of our players. Yet how can anyone have faith in Butcher given what we have all just witnessed?

To be honest, im a bit disappointed he hasn’t just walked – I would have thought professional pride and respect might have motivated him to do that.

[Ronniekirk]

Among many reasons why im not sure what to think at the moment, is my complete lack of understanding on whether a coach is good or not.

I was reading TheCat’s comments about what Kenny Miller thinks about Butcher, and I’ve also heard from others (particularly Smaxxa) allude to senior players there not thinking that Butcher has a clue (or Malpas for that matter).

Yet, he did do a grand job at ICT. He has played at an exceptionally high level, likewise Malpas who also played under one of the great Scottish managers).
Also, when im unsure what to believe, I try to trust my own judgement – and the ICT team who played us off the park at ER earlier this year were fit, energetic, had terrific movement, a good defensive shape and looked an excellently coached team.

George Burley, a guy with a good managerial track record, obviously rates him as he made him assistant manager for Scotland.
Yet equally, when I judge what I see, I can honestly say I have never seen such a poor performance as yesterday from a Hibs team, relative to what was at stake and the opposition we were playing against. So I have to question his motivation skills.

And similarly, we are a team with no discernible pattern of play, and under TB and MM every single player (not an exaggeration) has gotten worse in terms of performances.
So what do we trust? Track record (good) or the here and now (awful)? Why is it that players etc can have such wildly divergent opinions of the same people, both of whom are so decorated as players?
Are fitba players just inherently a bunch of gossiping prima-donnas, or is there no smoke without fire?

I don’t believe for a minute that Butcher and Malpas (regardless of flaws etc) tell the players to go out and punt it the way they were facing, which seemed to be the tactics yesterday. Likewise, I don’t for a minute think that he told the team to set-up with what appeared to me to be verging on a 9-0-1 formation yesterday. Yet that’s what happened, and has been happening.

This is important, because im genuinely undecided as to whether or not Butcher should remain. But ever since the john Collins debacle, I struggle to have any faith in the judgement and professionalism of our players. Yet how can anyone have faith in Butcher given what we have all just witnessed?

To be honest, im a bit disappointed he hasn’t just walked – I would have thought professional pride and respect might have motivated him to do that.
Conundrums that we have all been asking and remain perplexed about
However I didn't think he would walk away and knew Petrie wouldn't empty him so like it of not we are going to have to give him the first few months of the Season and see how it goes .
But when he brings in his own players he has to understand season ticket or not Fans of this club won't turn out to watch Aimless Hoofball it's worse than Fenlons crab football but at least those teams could retain possession and be hard to get beat .Exactly what we needed yesterday

[ekhibee]

Among many reasons why im not sure what to think at the moment, is my complete lack of understanding on whether a coach is good or not.

I was reading TheCat’s comments about what Kenny Miller thinks about Butcher, and I’ve also heard from others (particularly Smaxxa) allude to senior players there not thinking that Butcher has a clue (or Malpas for that matter).

Yet, he did do a grand job at ICT. He has played at an exceptionally high level, likewise Malpas who also played under one of the great Scottish managers).
Also, when im unsure what to believe, I try to trust my own judgement – and the ICT team who played us off the park at ER earlier this year were fit, energetic, had terrific movement, a good defensive shape and looked an excellently coached team.

George Burley, a guy with a good managerial track record, obviously rates him as he made him assistant manager for Scotland.
Yet equally, when I judge what I see, I can honestly say I have never seen such a poor performance as yesterday from a Hibs team, relative to what was at stake and the opposition we were playing against. So I have to question his motivation skills.

And similarly, we are a team with no discernible pattern of play, and under TB and MM every single player (not an exaggeration) has gotten worse in terms of performances.
So what do we trust? Track record (good) or the here and now (awful)? Why is it that players etc can have such wildly divergent opinions of the same people, both of whom are so decorated as players?
Are fitba players just inherently a bunch of gossiping prima-donnas, or is there no smoke without fire?

I don’t believe for a minute that Butcher and Malpas (regardless of flaws etc) tell the players to go out and punt it the way they were facing, which seemed to be the tactics yesterday. Likewise, I don’t for a minute think that he told the team to set-up with what appeared to me to be verging on a 9-0-1 formation yesterday. Yet that’s what happened, and has been happening.

This is important, because im genuinely undecided as to whether or not Butcher should remain. But ever since the john Collins debacle, I struggle to have any faith in the judgement and professionalism of our players. Yet how can anyone have faith in Butcher given what we have all just witnessed?

To be honest, im a bit disappointed he hasn’t just walked – I would have thought professional pride and respect might have motivated him to do that.
Good post Southside, it asks a lot of questions too. I totally agree with you about yesterday's performance, I don't accept that Butcher told them to play that way at all. If what smaaxa etc say about him is true about losing the dressing-room, maybe they thought they would just go ahead and ignore what he was asking. They certainly didn't play like a team with any kind of organization whatsoever. From that perspective it's quite right that he's getting rid of most of them, if they're not prepared to play the game the way he wants it in one of the most important games in our history then they're not going to do it any other time either. It would seem Fenlon, Calderwood, Hughes and Collins, for different reasons had all seemingly 'lost the dressing-room', and although I was never in favour of Fenlon, Hughes, Pataliannen or Calderwood as managers, none of them got us relegated. Unlike a lot of people on here I'm prepared to give Butcher a chance to build his own team, which is quite unlike me really, but I was pleased when we appointed him and will stick by him just now. If the new team doesn't produce better results though, he should be sacked or resign.

[bobbyhibs1983]

To be honest, im a bit disappointed he hasn’t just walked – I would have thought professional pride and respect might have motivated him to do that.



Intresting post southside.

The thing that strikes me about yesterday was we were equally bad in both halfs and well he had halftime to get his points across as to what to do(hopefully pass and not hoff the ball)

In respect of the bit of your post i ve posted(i dunnow how to highlight bits of posts:confused:)

Maybe his professional pride and respect is hurt and well he may see it as messing up hibs and maybe just maybe he wants to make amends?

[Purple & Green]

He is the paradox - I've no doubt we'll see some very good fit players next season to fit into a high tempo pressing game next season. We might even do quite well.

But, we are where we are, and he's butchered the team this season when all he had to do was limp along and get enough points to stay in a low quality league or see off an even lower quality lower league side. This team isn't great, but it's not bad enough to go down. To take us down was incompetence and belligerence on a scale I've never seen before.

When you think about it, in the last 25 years Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United & Hibs have been relegated twice between them until this season. Hibs were in no danger when he took over, he's lucky that he's still in a job (or lucky there wasn't a sacking clause in his contract for relegation)

[ekhibee]

He is the paradox - I've no doubt we'll see some very good fit players next season to fit into a high tempo pressing game next season. We might even do quite well.

But, we are where we are, and he's butchered the team this season when all he had to do was limp along and get enough points to stay in a low quality league or see off an even lower quality lower league side. This team isn't great, but it's not bad enough to go down. To take us down was incompetence and belligerence on a scale I've never seen before.

When you think about it, in the last 25 years Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United & Hibs have been relegated twice between them until this season. Hibs were in no danger when he took over, he's lucky that he's still in a job (or lucky there wasn't a sacking clause in his contract for relegation)
Good post and good points too but sorry to be pedantic- Aberdeen have never been relegated.

[Purple & Green]

Good post and good points too but sorry to be pedantic- Aberdeen have never been relegated.

I know - I was trying to benchmark that in the last 25 years four clubs of similar standing had been relegated twice between them - Dundee United in 95, and Hibs in 98. And in those days it was 10th that went down not 11th & 12th.