Butcher and hoofball tactics

[eggbamyasi]

alot of people on here mention hoofball and butchers tactics .
This is my opinion on it and im sure some will totally disagree but its what I believe .
I dont think that is his tactics , I have seen ict playing when he was manager and they didnt hoof . They player direct style and passed really well . It was a fast moving tactic that punished slower teams and counter attacked well and fast , I personally like that style . He failed to get the players playing that way properly part of the reason I blame the squad more than anything else for our relegation . It really annoys me that people seem to just blame managment for the hoofball that was on display . Yes the managment could of changed mid way once they seen our useless players couldnt adopt to it but im sure thats not easy to do . Considering the system they were used to was woeful under CC and PF . so to me we had players who could not adapt to a system which the managment have made there own and had sucsess with which for proffesional footballers getting paid 1k plus a week is not good enough . Imo there is absolutely no way what so ever TB and MM told nelson and mcgivern to just belt the ball blindly when they got it ( itt must have driven them mad on touchline ) yes people will say why play player that wont or cant adopt system imo because we had no choice our squad was so disjointed and cover for positions was really poor also injuries affect stuff too . Players arent robots and you download a formation and they just do it . They imo have to shoulder alot of the blame for any hoofball with there inability and lack of skill to learn or play in a different way . Which to me as professional footballers is pathetic . Im glad we have had this clear out and I hope and believe once the managment bring in there own squad of commited and hungry player we will see a really good style of strong attacking football I seen at ict .
Lets hope the board / owner get there finger out and allow this to happen .
Sorry for rant but been wanting to say this for a while .

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[Smartie]

I agree with you 100%.

The pattern of football, style of play, call it what you will has transcended several managers and I simply refuse to believe that this is a deliberate managerial ploy and the "hoofball" accusation is a stick that has been used to beat a few managers now.

Let him get his own players in and then we can judge him. I'm 100% behind him and his clear out.

All he has proven so far is that he can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[Kato]

The long ball game has a definate pattern and requires discipline.

The hoofs we've seen this season don't resemble the tactics of a Long Ball game/route one.

They do however indicate we had a squad of players who treated the ball like a hot tattie and got rid as soon as possible because they don't understand the need to show some bollocks and responsibility.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'd say playing the ball forward quicker when he came in was the right tactics to use, but to then play one up front makes that tactic hard and a thankless task. Yesterday culminated in playing the same tactics with a boy who's just out kids football running around like a headless chicken, after he substituted Heffernan.

He gambled our future on not losing 2-0 to Hamilton ****in Accies at home, but putting on OTJ. He also wasted one substitution when Haynes got injured, why the **** did he bring on Harris?

We started the game without a holding midfielder, and even in the first few minutes you could see them out passing us.

Butcher has some serious candidates at easter road in the clueless stakes, but since he's arrived at the club, he's managed to shoot straight to the top of this pile of dross management table.

I'm astounded he's not been sacked this morning and he's being allowed to try and get Hibs out the Championship. I wouldnt trust him with the kitty money on a works night out.

[Kato]

I'd say playing the ball forward quicker when he came in was the right tactics to use, but to then play one up front makes that tactic hard and a thankless task. Yesterday culminated in playing the same tactics with a boy who's just out kids football running around like a headless chicken, after he substituted Heffernan.

He gambled our future on not losing 2-0 to Hamilton ****in Accies at home, but putting on OTJ. He also wasted one substitution when Haynes got injured, why the **** did he bring on Harris?

We started the game without a holding midfielder, and even in the first few minutes you could see them out passing us.

Butcher has some serious candidates at easter road in the clueless stakes, but since he's arrived at the club, he's managed to shoot straight to the top of this pile of dross management table.

I'm astounded he's not been sacked this morning and he's being allowed to try and get Hibs out the Championship. I wouldnt trust him with the kitty money on a works night out.

Whatever tactics the manager picked I don't think the players employed them on the field yesterday.

What I saw was a shambles with no-one looking for the ball (movement was awful) and everyone looking to get rid as soon as it came to them.

[blackpoolhibs]

Whatever tactics the manager picked I don't think the players employed them on the field yesterday.

What I saw was a shambles with no-one looking for the ball (movement was awful) and everyone looking to get rid as soon as it came to them.

:agree:

[Brizo]

alot of people on here mention hoofball and butchers tactics .
This is my opinion on it and im sure some will totally disagree but its what I believe .
I dont think that is his tactics , I have seen ict playing when he was manager and they didnt hoof . They player direct style and passed really well . It was a fast moving tactic that punished slower teams and counter attacked well and fast , I personally like that style . He failed to get the players playing that way properly part of the reason I blame the squad more than anything else for our relegation . It really annoys me that people seem to just blame managment for the hoofball that was on display . Yes the managment could of changed mid way once they seen our useless players couldnt adopt to it but im sure thats not easy to do . Considering the system they were used to was woeful under CC and PF . so to me we had players who could not adapt to a system which the managment have made there own and had sucsess with which for proffesional footballers getting paid 1k plus a week is not good enough . Imo there is absolutely no way what so ever TB and MM told nelson and mcgivern to just belt the ball blindly when they got it ( itt must have driven them mad on touchline ) yes people will say why play player that wont or cant adopt system imo because we had no choice our squad was so disjointed and cover for positions was really poor also injuries affect stuff too . Players arent robots and you download a formation and they just do it . They imo have to shoulder alot of the blame for any hoofball with there inability and lack of skill to learn or play in a different way . Which to me as professional footballers is pathetic . Im glad we have had this clear out and I hope and believe once the managment bring in there own squad of commited and hungry player we will see a really good style of strong attacking football I seen at ict .
Lets hope the board / owner get there finger out and allow this to happen .
Sorry for rant but been wanting to say this for a while .

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The management set the playing style at training day in day out. Hamilton with infinitely inferior resources to us and, on paper, inferior players to us played a passing game that's obviously been honed day in day out at training.

If for your arguments sake, our players couldn't do that, then TB came to us with a reputation as an inspirational motivator and man manager. Our team has shown no fight, no passion, no commitment over the vast majority of his tenure. You mention Nelson and McGivern; if an ex England defender legend couldn't coach improvements to their defending, in what should be his specialist area, that's a pretty damming indictment of his coaching abilities. It was him that made the tactical blunder to put on OTJ to defend a 0 1 defeat, just the latest in a series of tactical blunders.

You obviously still believe the hype but I think your in the minority.

[Hibercelona]

Whatever tactics the manager picked I don't think the players employed them on the field yesterday.

What I saw was a shambles with no-one looking for the ball (movement was awful) and everyone looking to get rid as soon as it came to them.

Which begs the question of what they're doing in training?

The manager must see that something is a miss during training and its his job to sort that out.

He never done that, so we had the same players making the same basic errors week in, week out.

[Lang Toun Hibs]

Sorry, I disagree. He needed to adjust his approach to get the best from what we had but didn't and totally lost the plot in terms of handling the majority of players in my view. What if his "direct" style doesn't work right from the off next season...how patient will everyone be then? He's finished for me and as much to blame for the free fall as anyone.

[Kato]

Which begs the question of what they're doing in training?

The manager must see that something is a miss during training and its his job to sort that out.

He never done that, so we had the same players making the same basic errors week in, week out.

I dare say they look great in training. Anyone can look great in training.


Football adage--

"When they get over the white line there is nothign the manager can do."

When our players get over the white line they lose all self-respect and look for places to hide and probably PRAY that no-one passes the ball to them.

Mentally none of these player have what it takes to play for this club.

[blackpoolhibs]

Sorry, I disagree. He needed to adjust his approach to get the best from what we had but didn't and totally lost the plot in terms of handling the majority of players in my view. What if his "direct" style doesn't work right from the off next season...how patient will everyone be then? He's finished for me and as much to blame for the free fall as anyone.

Spot on, we were a poor side when he arrived but won a few drew a few and lost a few playing piss poor unatractive football.

Now the footballs worse and we just lose a lot.

[eggbamyasi]

The management set the playing style at training day in day out. Hamilton with infinitely inferior resources to us and, on paper, inferior players to us played a passing game that's obviously been honed day in day out at training.

If for your arguments sake, our players couldn't do that, then TB came to us with a reputation as an inspirational motivator and man manager. Our team has shown no fight, no passion, no commitment over the vast majority of his tenure. You mention Nelson and McGivern; if an ex England defender legend couldn't coach improvements to their defending, in what should be his specialist area, that's a pretty damming indictment of his coaching abilities. It was him that made the tactical blunder to put on OTJ to defend a 0 1 defeat, just the latest in a series of tactical blunders.

You obviously still believe the hype but I think your in the minority.

Like I said the players are not robots if there unwilling or unable to do what is being asked then there not bloody good enough . As a manager you dont just tell a player you do this and then theydo it and do it brilliantly ! If they cant you bring in a player that can and is willing to . If you dont have the squad and replacment players to do so you have to try with the dross you got . Imo no one could have stopped us from the relegation the players ultimately deserved due to there lack of abilities and lack of commitment/ respect to hibernian fc .

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[eggbamyasi]

The long ball game has a definate pattern and requires discipline.

The hoofs we've seen this season don't resemble the tactics of a Long Ball game/route one.

They do however indicate we had a squad of players who treated the ball like a hot tattie and got rid as soon as possible because they don't understand the need to show some bollocks and responsibility.

Also totally agree with thos kato .

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[Hibercelona]

I dare say they look great in training. Anyone can look great in training.


Football adage--

"When they get over the white line there is nothign the manager can do."

When our players get over the white line they lose all self-respect and look for places to hide and probably PRAY that no-one passes the ball to them.

Mentally none of these player have what it takes to play for this club.

But many of them are capable of playing at other clubs at the same level. Why is that?

[eggbamyasi]

Which begs the question of what they're doing in training?

The manager must see that something is a miss during training and its his job to sort that out.

He never done that, so we had the same players making the same basic errors week in, week out.

Agree to a point . But also why I stated he never had the squad to change it enough we had a piss poor squad from previous last two mabey more years . Im not saying hes blameless but for me the bulk of this relegation is on the players who showed complete lack of ability , fight , respect for our club .

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[Hibercelona]

Agree to a point . But also why I stated he never had the squad to change it enough we had a piss poor squad from previous last two mabey more years . Im not saying hes blameless but for me the bulk of this relegation is on the players who showed complete lack of ability , fight , respect for our club .

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But they didn't for other clubs. So what is it about this club that causes players to turn that way?

Why us?

[Boyle89]

Yesterday was possibly the worst I have seen any football team play at any level. You can't even describe us as a pub team. Why have we been playing that way for months on end when it's clear it wasn't working.

[eggbamyasi]

But they didn't for other clubs. So what is it about this club that causes players to turn that way?

Why us?

Thats the big question isnt it . **** knows , prob many different reason . Imo and its just what I think . Is we signed these players from smaller clubs finacially wise . The come in and have this billy big balls attitude and no one to knock them down a peg , which imo comes from back as far as john collins the momment the player were chosen over the manager . Mcleish and mowbray stood for no **** proof in who they dropped etc . soon as the collins situation happened players at our club attitude change weather alot or just a wee bit, plus in world football the powers players gained set in a rot in the club .if you look at most successful side around world they have a no nosense manager that players genrally will not cross and that happens due to the manager and full backing from board .
Just my opinion ofc and only one of prob many reasons players **** up at hibs . But your right its the big question that so difficult to know why it happens . All I know is when we have had a good season our manager at the time has had full control and has taken no **** from any players and is quite happy to drop them no matter how big a name they are .

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[emerald green]

The "hoofball" is only part of the dire stuff under Butcher. The players run around like total strangers to each other. He says in the papers "training has been good this week". Doing what?

Some / many of them can't seem to pass a ball 5 yards to a team mate. First touch on the ball is often very poor - no ball control. They give the ball away continually by "hoofing" it as hard and as far as they can often hoping for the best it looks to me from my place in the stand. Is this what Butcher means by getting the ball into the opposition box quicker and more often?

As a team, his teams cannot defend properly - yet Butcher & Malpas were both international defenders. Week after week, it's a free gift of a goal (or two) to the opposition.

They can't score goals - certainly not enough anyway. One up front at home against Accies yesterday when we really only needed to score one goal. Lowest scorers in all of the top leagues in Britain someone said to me. Not sure if that's true though, but I don't thinks it's too far wrong.

Granted, some of the players are simply not good enough, but Butcher has presided over a complete shambles. There was no sign of any improvement in his time in charge. Just a catastrophic decline that has seen the club relegated.

I don't care what it may cost, he should have been fired this morning.

[Brizo]

Like I said the players are not robots if there unwilling or unable to do what is being asked then there not bloody good enough . As a manager you dont just tell a player you do this and then theydo it and do it brilliantly ! If they cant you bring in a player that can and is willing to . If you dont have the squad and replacment players to do so you have to try with the dross you got . Imo no one could have stopped us from the relegation the players ultimately deserved due to there lack of abilities and lack of commitment/ respect to hibernian fc .

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So where in all this is TBs responsibility. You appear to be abdicating him of any responsibility in yesterdays shambles and the preceding months of shambolic performances. You think no one could have stopped us from relegation. That's a hypothetical argument. Facts are he came to us when our squad was producing mid table mediocre performances ; he has taken us down the table to a succession of even worse performances that have led to relegation.

Man for man our squad should have been good enough to stay up. As I said in my previous post he was supposed to be an inspirational motivator and man manager. He has failed abysmally to get the best out of players who should have been good enough to, at the very least, see out a second leg against Hamilton.

[eggbamyasi]

I do think butcher has to take some blame . But I mainly blame the players in the squad and I am glad most are being cleaned out . Our squad was not producing mid table performances we were woeful . Malmo , hearts twice . A hearts team that were getting pumped by every other club plus other results . We were ***** when he came in the reason previous manager left . We continued to be ***** . We got relegated butcher is to blame because he couldnt turn this shower of ***** around but imo the player are mainly to blame like you said they should have been good enough but they lacked commitment , passion ability and a whole list of other thing and let this club down so badly. .

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[h185forever]

the worrying thing ...so far ...is only three who started y'day ...are out !!

[Kato]

But many of them are capable of playing at other clubs at the same level. Why is that?

...and sometimes a manager has success at one club then sucks at another, there is no science to it, just circumstances.

I dare say someone like Liam Craig will find it easier playing at St Johnstone than he did at Hibs - there is less pressure at StJ and he just didn't have the character to make it with Hibs. Been saying for months it's not lack of skill that has made this group of players play so badly but lack of mental strength and character. Even one leader on the park can make the other ten raise their game. We don't have anyone with those kind of testicles on out books. A bunch of kids supplemented by a bunch of kidults, no men.

Whatever we think this group of players have let their manager down badly and both manager and players have let the fans down badly.

[Lago]

wich begs the question of what they're doing in training?

The manager must see that something is a miss during training and its his job to sort that out.

He never done that, so we had the same players making the same basic errors week in, week out.

The only point I would make in this debate is the following, under Pat Fenlon many on here currently criticising Butcher, also described the style of football as eye bleeding awful, and the term hoof ball was frequently used. Could it be more a player problem than a coaching problem.

[Hibercelona]

The only point I would make in this debate is the following, under Pat Fenlon many on here currently criticising Butcher, also described the style of football as eye bleeding awful, and the term hoof ball was frequently used. Could it be more a player problem than a coaching problem.

Players and managers have come and gone, but the "style" of play has been fairly consistent wouldn't you say?

[Lago]

Players and managers have come and gone, but the "style" of play has been fairly consistent wouldn't you say?
Yes I do to a degree, I even remember Mixu being taged as hoof ball manager. So yes it does go on all I am trying to say that Butcher cant have all the blame laid at his feet. Over the years a certain type of player has been recruited at ER, Nelson when he first came and we all liked him because he was a 'no nonsence centre half' I.e. whole hearted but low in skill, result hoof ball.

[bobbyhibs1983]

The "hoofball" is only part of the dire stuff under Butcher. The players run around like total strangers to each other. He says in the papers "training has been good this week". Doing what?

Some / many of them can't seem to pass a ball 5 yards to a team mate. First touch on the ball is often very poor - no ball control. They give the ball away continually by "hoofing" it as hard and as far as they can often hoping for the best it looks to me from my place in the stand. Is this what Butcher means by getting the ball into the opposition box quicker and more often?

As a team, his teams cannot defend properly - yet Butcher & Malpas were both international defenders. Week after week, it's a free gift of a goal (or two) to the opposition.

They can't score goals - certainly not enough anyway. One up front at home against Accies yesterday when we really only needed to score one goal. Lowest scorers in all of the top leagues in Britain someone said to me. Not sure if that's true though, but I don't thinks it's too far wrong.

Granted, some of the players are simply not good enough, but Butcher has presided over a complete shambles. There was no sign of any improvement in his time in charge. Just a catastrophic decline that has seen the club relegated.

I don't care what it may cost, he should have been fired this morning.


:top marks for your post emerald green


Bottom line is we should be better than we were. we have a fantastic training centre , so why the heck have things not inproved?

I can understand alot of points people have made about bad players n all. but the only way a bad player will get better is training.
I ve said on other posts i like many youngers(a long time ago) wanted to be a footballer.Looking bad i wasn't very good,BUt
give me training 4/5 times a week and i would
1.Be fitter.
2.be a better passer
3.be better at defending(i used to play defence when younger)


Now you look at the sqaurd our manager inheritied(sp)
and ask yourselfs
1.are they fitter? i dont think so
2 are they better passers of the ball? No i think maybe soemthign like 80% of OUR passes went amiss/to an opponent yesterday,I think at one point we made 6passes in 1 little patch of play. and i think there was 3-4 passes at another little bit of play

as emerald green has said we have a manager and an assistant who were denders, and well we cannot defend it seems

[emerald green]

:top marks for your post emerald green


Bottom line is we should be better than we were. we have a fantastic training centre , so why the heck have things not inproved?

I can understand alot of points people have made about bad players n all. but the only way a bad player will get better is training.
I ve said on other posts i like many youngers(a long time ago) wanted to be a footballer.Looking bad i wasn't very good,BUt
give me training 4/5 times a week and i would
1.Be fitter.
2.be a better passer
3.be better at defending(i used to play defence when younger)


Now you look at the sqaurd our manager inheritied(sp)
and ask yourselfs
1.are they fitter? i dont think so
2 are they better passers of the ball? No i think maybe soemthign like 80% of OUR passes went amiss/to an opponent yesterday,I think at one point we made 6passes in 1 little patch of play. and i think there was 3-4 passes at another little bit of play

as emerald green has said we have a manager and an assistant who were denders, and well we cannot defend it seems

Cheers mate. It doesn't give me any pleasure saying all that stuff, but it's blindingly obvious to me. Yet there are those who are of the opinion that Butcher and Malpas should stay. They are of course entitled to their opinions, but I simply cannot agree with them.

[borstalboy]

The "hoofball" is only part of the dire stuff under Butcher. The players run around like total strangers to each other. He says in the papers "training has been good this week". Doing what?

Some / many of them can't seem to pass a ball 5 yards to a team mate. First touch on the ball is often very poor - no ball control. They give the ball away continually by "hoofing" it as hard and as far as they can often hoping for the best it looks to me from my place in the stand. Is this what Butcher means by getting the ball into the opposition box quicker and more often?

As a team, his teams cannot defend properly - yet Butcher & Malpas were both international defenders. Week after week, it's a free gift of a goal (or two) to the opposition.

They can't score goals - certainly not enough anyway. One up front at home against Accies yesterday when we really only needed to score one goal. Lowest scorers in all of the top leagues in Britain someone said to me. Not sure if that's true though, but I don't thinks it's too far wrong.

Granted, some of the players are simply not good enough, but Butcher has presided over a complete shambles. There was no sign of any improvement in his time in charge. Just a catastrophic decline that has seen the club relegated.

I don't care what it may cost, he should have been fired this morning.

Explain to me this, you're trying to slate Butcher for everything quoted in your post, however you've basically just highlighted the player issues we have within our squad rather than Butcher. To me your post proves that it's the players which are more to blame than anything. Passing, moving, making runs, composure and belief are abundantly lacking. How does Butcher score goals? How does Butcher make our current defenders better than they are when it's so clear how bad they are? I've played football with and under folk I've not always liked but I gave 100% every time, that can't be said for our current crop of players.

The good ol saying of you can only p*ss with the c*ck you're given with comes to mind in your post.

[#2 Double Tap]

Explain to me this, you're trying to slate Butcher for everything quoted in your post, however you've basically just highlighted the player issues we have within our squad rather than Butcher. To me your post proves that it's the players which are more to blame than anything. Passing, moving, making runs, composure and belief are abundantly lacking. How does Butcher score goals? How does Butcher make our current defenders better than they are when it's so clear how bad they are? I've played football with and under folk I've not always liked but I gave 100% every time, that can't be said for our current crop of players.

The good ol saying of you can only p*ss with the c*ck you're given with comes to mind in your post.

what if it starts going wrong say ten games in - we need a fresh start. half the support doesnt trust petrie or butcher.

[1987kev]

Surely the players must see that long balls don't work so why don't they try something different if butcher was telling to go long surely as a professional footballer you say to yourself this ain't working I'm going to have to do something else.

[borstalboy]

what if it starts going wrong say ten games in - we need a fresh start. half the support doesnt trust petrie or butcher.

I agree with you, not everyone trusts Butcher but the one constant is Petrie! I'm all for a fresh start but Rome wasn't built in a day and if you remove the management and all the squad players that leaves a daunting task for anyone. He has a record of getting teams back out of the division we're going in to. That said, if 10 games in and we're still horrendous, then i fully expect him to get that sack, who wouldn't(?)....at least then he'd have no excuse as it would be his team.

I'm not for a moment saying I want him to stay, I'm slightly undecided tbh, after yesterdays performance and the overall season, I think no one is blameless at the club and I'd be happy see the back of all, if that happened.

[#2 Double Tap]

I agree with you, not everyone trusts Butcher but the one constant is Petrie! I'm all for a fresh start but Rome wasn't built in a day and if you remove the management and all the squad players that leaves a daunting task for anyone. He has a record of getting teams back out of the division we're going in to. That said, if 10 games in and we're still horrendous, then i fully expect him to get that sack, who wouldn't(?)....at least then he'd have no excuse as it would be his team.

I'm not for a moment saying I want him to stay, I'm slightly undecided tbh, after yesterdays performance and the overall season, I think no one is blameless at the club and I'd be happy see the back of all, if that happened.

I don't think we can take the risk, evidence just says no, even the jan signings were dreadful, and the team moral, the team selections - those tactics v hamilton - on our home pitch. It has been so bad it looks deliberate.

[borstalboy]

I don't think we can take the risk, evidence just says no, even the jan signings were dreadful, and the team moral, the team selections - those tactics v hamilton - on our home pitch. It has been so bad it looks deliberate.

But who's to say sacking those 3 and bringing a new management team in, isn't any bigger a risk?....

I do understand what you're saying, January signings didn't work out, however by all accounts (whether you believe it or not) we had players lined up for January and there situations changed with their respective clubs or so we're told. I'd probably imagine like most of us, TB didn't see this coming considering where we were in the league at that time. With regards to team selections, it's all if buts and maybes, there's no knowing if it would have helped or not. For instance yesterday, we did not look like scoring what so ever even with 2 up top, he went defensive to try and see out the game, something I think I probably would've done also.

[emerald green]

Explain to me this, you're trying to slate Butcher for everything quoted in your post, however you've basically just highlighted the player issues we have within our squad rather than Butcher. To me your post proves that it's the players which are more to blame than anything. Passing, moving, making runs, composure and belief are abundantly lacking. How does Butcher score goals? How does Butcher make our current defenders better than they are when it's so clear how bad they are? I've played football with and under folk I've not always liked but I gave 100% every time, that can't be said for our current crop of players.

The good ol saying of you can only p*ss with the c*ck you're given with comes to mind in your post.

I agree with you to an extent. I do say in my post that clearly some of the players are not good enough. A good coach however would not have his team playing in the shambolic manner they have been for weeks. His team has got gradually worse since new year and has resulted in the club being relegated. The manager/coaches must take some responsibility for that surely?

He sets the tactics and picks the players. His style of football - getting the ball quickly into the opposition box - by lumping high balls into wee guys like Heffernan or Cummings, which is easy meat for big defenders, just does not work or make sense.

Part of a coach's job is to try to improve players, yet defenders commit the most basic errors week after week. Granted, this didn't happen only under Butcher, but it seems to have got worse since he took charge, resulting in a catastrophic relegation. Just my opinion though. The table doesn't lie is another good old saying that comes to mind too.

Players seem to be scared to take a pass, move with the ball, and find a team mate with a simple pass along the ground. Like Hamilton were reasonably good at yesterday. Why can't Hibs players do that? Is it because that's not how they practice at training all week under his and Malpas' guidance and instruction? His style of play is pre-historic, and a million miles away from the modern passing game which all decent teams try to play.

His tactics, and game plan, yesterday were all wrong. We only needed one goal to kill the tie off. He plays one up front at home when we've already got a 2-0 advantage - Heffernan - then tries to hold out for 0-1 by taking him off and putting OTJ on in his place. The inevitable then happened. Those decisions are not the players fault, although I agree they must accept their share of the blame for the club being relegated.

It has been debated on these threads about players not giving 100%, and I'm not going into that again here. Suffice to say, it wasn't too clever to let it be known that some players had no future at the club and then have to back peddle and bring them into the team and rely on them to get results when everything started to go pete tong.

I'm not really sure who is "more to blame", players or coaches, but Butcher has been a disaster IMHO.

If he stays and can bring Hibs back up in one season I will be amazed and delighted.

[borstalboy]

I agree with you to an extent. I do say in my post that clearly some of the players are not good enough. A good coach however would not have his team playing in the shambolic manner they have been for weeks. His team has got gradually worse since new year and has resulted in the club being relegated. The manager/coaches must take some responsibility for that surely?

He sets the tactics and picks the players. His style of football - getting the ball quickly into the opposition box - by lumping high balls into wee guys like Heffernan or Cummings, which is easy meat for big defenders, just does not work or make sense.

Part of a coach's job is to try to improve players, yet defenders commit the most basic errors week after week. Granted, this didn't happen only under Butcher, but it seems to have got worse since he took charge, resulting in a catastrophic relegation. Just my opinion though. The table doesn't lie is another good old saying that comes to mind too.

Players seem to be scared to take a pass, move with the ball, and find a team mate with a simple pass along the ground. Like Hamilton were reasonably good at yesterday. Why can't Hibs players do that? Is it because that's not how they practice at training all week under his and Malpas' guidance and instruction? His style of play is pre-historic, and a million miles away from the modern passing game which all decent teams try to play.

His tactics, and game plan, yesterday were all wrong. We only needed one goal to kill the tie off. He plays one up front at home when we've already got a 2-0 advantage - Heffernan - then tries to hold out for 0-1 by taking him off and putting OTJ on in his place. The inevitable then happened. Those decisions are not the players fault, although I agree they must accept their share of the blame for the club being relegated.

It has been debated on these threads about players not giving 100%, and I'm not going into that again here. Suffice to say, it wasn't too clever to let it be known that some players had no future at the club and then have to back peddle and bring them into the team and rely on them to get results when everything started to go pete tong.

I'm not really sure who is "more to blame", players or coaches, but Butcher has been a disaster IMHO.

If he stays and can bring Hibs back up in one season I will be amazed and delighted.

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, yesterday was a complete disaster and tactically shocking beyond belief.

I'm finding it hard to believe these players can't make and take simple passes to each other without have to be taught this at training. You'd expect a professional footballer to be able to do the fundamentals more competently than most and to me that includes passing, movement, making the right decisions and game awareness.

The amount of individual errors which have cost us goals is beyond belief, you can train as much as you want but for instances where it's human error then how can you blame anyone other than the individual. Add to the fact we do not have anyone who can score goals, it was a recipe for disaster.

As I've said previously, I'd happily see the back of everyone at Easter Road as no one is blameless and everyone at the club has had a part to play in our downfall, imo.

Just out of curiosity, would you have kept 2 up front yesterday when we were 1-0 down, with 10 minutes to go and had never looked like scoring all game?

[#2 Double Tap]

But who's to say sacking those 3 and bringing a new management team in, isn't any bigger a risk?....

I do understand what you're saying, January signings didn't work out, however by all accounts (whether you believe it or not) we had players lined up for January and there situations changed with their respective clubs or so we're told. I'd probably imagine like most of us, TB didn't see this coming considering where we were in the league at that time. With regards to team selections, it's all if buts and maybes, there's no knowing if it would have helped or not. For instance yesterday, we did not look like scoring what so ever even with 2 up top, he went defensive to try and see out the game, something I think I probably would've done also.
something new over not got a clue - any day of the week.imo o/c i also think TB got us relegated, he doesnt deserve a chance because of that.

[emerald green]

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, yesterday was a complete disaster and tactically shocking beyond belief.

I'm finding it hard to believe these players can't make and take simple passes to each other without have to be taught this at training. You'd expect a professional footballer to be able to do the fundamentals more competently than most and to me that includes passing, movement, making the right decisions and game awareness.

The amount of individual errors which have cost us goals is beyond belief, you can train as much as you want but for instances where it's human error then how can you blame anyone other than the individual. Add to the fact we do not have anyone who can score goals, it was a recipe for disaster.

As I've said previously, I'd happily see the back of everyone at Easter Road as no one is blameless and everyone at the club has had a part to play in our downfall, imo.

Just out of curiosity, would you have kept 2 up front yesterday when we were 1-0 down, with 10 minutes to go and had never looked like scoring all game?


Fair comments. Individual players must take their share of blame for ridiculous errors, like McGivern's yesterday. Horrendous mistake, which in my opinion was the major incident which actually cost us the game. Don't lose an early daft goal, and what does he do?

If it were up to me (ho ho ho) I probably would have kept two up front. I think taking Heffernan off just invited Hamilton onto our shaky defence even more. When the inevitable equaliser went in it left us short up front when we had to go and win the game again. We looked even less like scoring then. It was a gamble by Butcher which failed.

[Sammy7nil]

But who's to say sacking those 3 and bringing a new management team in, isn't any bigger a risk?....

I do understand what you're saying, January signings didn't work out, however by all accounts (whether you believe it or not) we had players lined up for January and there situations changed with their respective clubs or so we're told. I'd probably imagine like most of us, TB didn't see this coming considering where we were in the league at that time. With regards to team selections, it's all if buts and maybes, there's no knowing if it would have helped or not. For instance yesterday, we did not look like scoring what so ever even with 2 up top, he went defensive to try and see out the game, something I think I probably would've done also.

The fans will decide, if they choose to stay away Butcher will have to go simples.
I cant see anyone desperate to go to ER to watch HOOOOOOOOOOOF to one or dare I hope for 2 tiny strikers.

[BSEJVT]

Whether Butcher instructed them to play hoofball or not is immaterial.

If he did then they were **** at it and he should have changed the style and / or the players.

If he didn't then he should have changed the players.

The fact he did neither shows he hadn't a ****in clue what to do

[borstalboy]

Fair comments. Individual players must take their share of blame for ridiculous errors, like McGivern's yesterday. Horrendous mistake, which in my opinion was the major incident which actually cost us the game. Don't lose an early daft goal, and what does he do?

If it were up to me (ho ho ho) I probably would have kept two up front. I think taking Heffernan off just invited Hamilton onto our shaky defence even more. When the inevitable equaliser went in it left us short up front when we had to go and win the game again. We looked even less like scoring then. It was a gamble by Butcher which failed.

Exactly.

I suppose in hindsight it's easy for you to answer that question knowing whats happened :wink: But i don't think he was wrong trying to shore it up for the last 10 minutes, just think he went with the wrong player to be substituted. He should've left the two strikers on and brought one out wide, I.e cummings, on the off chance they did score and we needed a goal.

[emerald green]

Exactly.

I suppose in hindsight it's easy for you to answer that question knowing whats happened :wink: But i don't think he was wrong trying to shore it up for the last 10 minutes, just think he went with the wrong player to be substituted. He should've left the two strikers on and brought one out wide, I.e cummings, on the off chance they did score and we needed a goal.

Sure. It's easy to be clever with the benefit of hindsight. But I actually said what I said in my previous post at the time at the match yesterday. Honest! :wink: If his gamble had paid off, and Hibs had held out for another minute or so, we would not have been relegated. How narrow the difference between success and failure. Agonising.

However, if we had stayed up, it would just have papered over the cracks although we would all have wanted the club to stay up obviously. This club needs urgent and meaningful change at all levels of the club. From the very top to bottom.

[The Leith Dutch]

Like I said the players are not robots if there unwilling or unable to do what is being asked then there not bloody good enough . As a manager you dont just tell a player you do this and then theydo it and do it brilliantly !

Here's an example of where I think it's the manager's problem:
The repeated wasting of possession by not addressing Nelson and McGivern and their habit of launching the ball forward.

He's either told them to do this or he's failed to tell them not to do this and either one of these represents a massive failing as a manager.

A good manager would have addressed this, told them to cut it out and made sure that his midfielders knew to make themselves available to receive a short pass from defence.

This isn't something you need special players for, it isn't something you need exceptional players for and it isn't something the manager needs his own players for.

It's also not about being an armchair manager - it's recognising that something that occurs tens of times every game and never works can't be allowed to continue.

[borstalboy]

Sure. It's easy to be clever with the benefit of hindsight. But I actually said what I said in my previous post at the time at the match yesterday. Honest! :wink: If his gamble had paid off, and Hibs had held out for another minute or so, we would not have been relegated. How narrow the difference between success and failure. Agonising.

However, if we had stayed up, it would just have papered over the cracks although we would all have wanted the club to stay up obviously. This club needs urgent and meaningful change at all levels of the club. From the very top to bottom.

Ok, I'll believe you :aok:

And I couldn't agree more with you on this statement. Something fundamentally wrong at our club, has been for a while!!

[borstalboy]

Here's an example of where I think it's the manager's problem: The repeated wasting of possession by not addressing Nelson and McGivern and their habit of launching the ball forward. He's either told them to do this or he's failed to tell them not to do this and either one of these represents a massive failing as a manager. A good manager would have addressed this, told them to cut it out and made sure that his midfielders knew to make themselves available to receive a short pass from defence. This isn't something you need special players for, it isn't something you need exceptional players for and it isn't something the manager needs his own players for. It's also not about being an armchair manager - it's recognising that something that occurs tens of times every game and never works can't be allowed to continue.

I fully get what you're saying and agree to an extent. However I'd also add that at some points where we have tried to play football in the correct manner, it's been abundantly clear we just couldn't do it. Prime example of that being St Mirren away most recently, they went down to 10 men, we tried to play football and it was terrible to watch professional footballers struggling to pass or create any chances of the sort. Don't think we had more than a couple of half chances at most in that game.

So as much as I agree, I'm not sure what the other alternative should've been.

[macd123]

I fully get what you're saying and agree to an extent. However I'd also add that at some points where we have tried to play football in the correct manner, it's been abundantly clear we just couldn't do it. Prime example of that being St Mirren away most recently, they went down to 10 men, we tried to play football and it was terrible to watch professional footballers struggling to pass or create any chances of the sort. Don't think we had more than a couple of half chances at most in that game.

So as much as I agree, I'm not sure what the other alternative should've been.

They could definitely do it if they set out to but it's up to the manager. Mowbray changed our style overnight.