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Famous Fiver
21-05-2014, 09:28 PM
We now find that Motherwell have been racking up huge losses, have had to borrow heavily just to keep going this season and need £1.5 million to avert financial disaster. No wonder Leeanne jumped ship. That arrogant buffoon Tam Cowan has been singing right out of the Hearts song book 'Spend, spend, spend'. Well it is all coming home to roost now with yet another club recklessly running their affairs, and not for the first time.
Thank god for Farmer and Petrie!!! ( Tin hat on)

nribs
21-05-2014, 09:55 PM
We now find that Motherwell have been racking up huge losses, have had to borrow heavily just to keep going this season and need £1.5 million to avert financial disaster. No wonder Leeanne jumped ship. That arrogant buffoon Tam Cowan has been singing right out of the Hearts song book 'Spend, spend, spend'. Well it is all coming home to roost now with yet another club recklessly running their affairs, and not for the first time.
Thank god for Farmer and Petrie!!! ( Tin hat on)Any links? Wouldn't mind a wee read off this.

sleeping giant
21-05-2014, 10:07 PM
Heard something similar today. Sure it was on 5live. They said they had a 100 thousand pounds loss and would need to offer shares to private investors if the fans group couldn't raise the buy in money.
Didn't hear anything about 1.5 million though.

SkintHibby
21-05-2014, 10:21 PM
Any links? Wouldn't mind a wee read off this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27508250

500miles
21-05-2014, 10:22 PM
I posted about this issue when we found out about Leanne Dempster joining us. A wee bit worrying that Motherwell can't make money after coming 2nd two years on the trot.

pacorosssco
21-05-2014, 10:29 PM
I posted about this issue when we found out about Leanne Dempster joining us. A wee bit worrying that Motherwell can't make money after coming 2nd two years on the trot.

not really, small support and pay decent spl wages. no surprise that need top up to difference . mcfaddens wage likely spent already on diifference finishing 2nd rather than 6th. for overspend still well run successful team , we dont live within means and cup finals last few years saved horrendous balance sheets.

Keith_M
22-05-2014, 01:22 PM
We've already had The Rangers and Hearts (multiple times) get the begging bowl out, now it seems it's the turn of Motherwell (http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/motherwell-fans-urged-to-invest-to-avert-crisis-1-3419863).


They've apparently just posted a (third successive?) loss. That amazes me, considering how well they've been doing, e.g. having just finished second.


:confused:

MrRobot
22-05-2014, 01:23 PM
All Leannes fault. Fact.

HUTCHYHIBBY
22-05-2014, 01:29 PM
not really, small support and pay decent spl wages. no surprise that need top up to difference . mcfaddens wage likely spent already on diifference finishing 2nd rather than 6th. for overspend still well run successful team , we dont live within means and cup finals last few years saved horrendous balance sheets.

Can someone translate this please? I'm lost!

ekhibee
22-05-2014, 01:30 PM
We've already had The Rangers and Hearts (multiple times) get the begging bowl out, now it seems it's the turn of Motherwell (http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/motherwell-fans-urged-to-invest-to-avert-crisis-1-3419863).


They've apparently just posted a (third successive?) loss. That amazes me, considering how well they've been doing, e.g. having just finished second.


:confused:
So much for idiots like Chick Dung going on about how well Motherwell have financially recovered from the **** of their own making a few seasons ago. If McCall wasn't there they'd probably be in even deeper doodoo, and if they cut his budget even more he'll be off.

Gus Fring
22-05-2014, 01:30 PM
No no no, Motherwell speculated to accumulate and finished 2nd. This is why Hibs should be doing similar.

It turns out if you live out with your means you end up close to going out of business. If only Hibs had seen the signs with other clubs before following this plan ourselves.

Oh that's right! We did!

Gus Fring
22-05-2014, 01:44 PM
not really, small support and pay decent spl wages. no surprise that need top up to difference . mcfaddens wage likely spent already on diifference finishing 2nd rather than 6th. for overspend still well run successful team , we dont live within means and cup finals last few years saved horrendous balance sheets.

We posted a profit last year. Our wages to turnover ratio was 49%. That's the definition of living within our means.

Ryan91
22-05-2014, 01:49 PM
No no no, Motherwell speculated to accumulate and finished 2nd. This is why Hibs should be doing similar.

It turns out if you live out with your means you end up close to going out of business. If only Hibs had seen the signs with other clubs before following this plan ourselves.

Oh that's right! We did!

Hibs could perhaps get away with it more than Motherwell could, I'm not advocating that we do so, but you could be assured that if we were challenging for second in the league we'd have pretty good attendances.

Motherwell have done well but attendances have been dire, because the majority of the locals would rather go and see the ugly sisters. If it weren't for their proximity to the Weeg they'd have far better attendances.

--------
22-05-2014, 01:55 PM
LD seems to have done well at Fir Park - well thought of and spoken of by most Motherwell fans I know, but I THINK (I'm not a finance expert so I'm not sure I've got this right) that the way forward she's constructed for the club (with Boyle's input and approval) requires a further investment from the fans of £350,000 -£500,000 fairly soon. The alternative would be Boyle 'seeking further investment' from businessmen in the Motherwell area. I don't KNOW, but I don't THINK that Motherwell are another Romanov/Jambos scenario in the making; I suspect that Boyle and Dempster have been guilty of nothing worse than over-estimating the potential fan-base they can count on for support.

But I do admit I'm not up-to-date with the situation there - the Caldera's Airdrieonians' territory, not Motherwell's.

Most of my neighbours think of Motherwell the way Hibees think of Hearts.

Billy Whizz
22-05-2014, 01:57 PM
LDe seems to have done well at Fir park - well thought of and spoken of by most Motherwell fans I know, but I THINK (I'm not a finance expert so I'm not sure I've got this right) that the way forward she's constructed for the club (with Boyle's input and approval) requires a further investment from the fans of £350,000 -£500,000 fairly soon. The alternative would be Boyle 'seeking further investment' from businessmen in the Motherwell area. I don't KNOW, but I don't THINK that Motherwell are another Romanov/Jambos scenario in the making; I suspect that Boyle and Dempster have been guilty of nothing worse than over-estimating the potential fan-base they can count on for support.

But I do admit I'm not up-to-date with the situation there - the Caldera's Airdrieonians' territory, not Motherwell's.

Most of my neighbours think of Motherwell the way Hibees think of Hearts.

Motherwell I believe budgeted on getting bigger home gates. This failed to materialise, hence their financial problems

TheFamous1875
22-05-2014, 01:58 PM
Motherwell have done amazingly over the last five+ years, but the demand isn't there for them, hence why they're always at a loss. They don't have enough income and having to organise trips to Europe due to their success year after year must sting them quite sharply.

I think if the same business approach is applied by Dempster at Hibs, then we could really push on and be a massive success for years to come. We have the fan base, the potential, the allure of the capital city and the history. If we had their success (and then some) our club's income would sky rocket due to the fan base. It's a snowball-effect, it's just a shame that it doesn't snow in Lanarkshire. We've got everything Motherwell could only dream of - and no Hearts!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

--------
22-05-2014, 02:05 PM
Motherwell I believe budgeted on getting bigger home gates. This failed to materialise, hence their financial problems


Yup. Hibs on the other hand budget on ST sales, basically, and make balancing the books top priority, and this has led to a degradation of the quality of the football and the team on the park, hence our relegation problems. It's a vicious circle.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Player development through the youth teams is the way for clubs like Hibs, but we don't seem to be able to do that right now.


Or we haven't got the message and no-one's making it a priority ....

Jones28
22-05-2014, 02:09 PM
McCall to Celtic anyone?

Famous Fiver
22-05-2014, 02:16 PM
I understand supporters have to raise £800,000 by November but £1.5 mill is required to complete fan ownership. Some of the £450,000 raised so far has shored things up this season as well as other short term loans. Simple, been living outside their means for at least three seasons and chickens are now coming home to roost.

ekhibee
22-05-2014, 02:17 PM
McCall to Celtic anyone?

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/tee%20hee%20hee.gif

Diclonius
22-05-2014, 03:10 PM
The citizens of Motherwell are too busy getting on buses to Parkhead and Ibrox every week. Success is wasted on them.

Diclonius
22-05-2014, 03:15 PM
I posted about this issue when we found out about Leanne Dempster joining us. A wee bit worrying that Motherwell can't make money after coming 2nd two years on the trot.

I'd rather not make money finishing 2nd than not make money finishing 10th, 11th, 7th and 11th.

Weststandwanab
22-05-2014, 03:31 PM
McCall to Celtic anyone?

Surely not Sellick Minded enough for that.

Weststandwanab
22-05-2014, 03:34 PM
I'd rather not make money finishing 2nd than not make money finishing 10th, 11th, 7th and 11th.

But you would not make money a lot more by finishing 2nd than you would finishing 11th.

Nutmegged
22-05-2014, 03:37 PM
Hibs could perhaps get away with it more than Motherwell could, I'm not advocating that we do so, but you could be assured that if we were challenging for second in the league we'd have pretty good attendances.

Motherwell have done well but attendances have been dire, because the majority of the locals would rather go and see the ugly sisters. If it weren't for their proximity to the Weeg they'd have far better attendances.
If we were challenging for 2nd we'd be getting 13k/14k regularly, no problem

--------
22-05-2014, 04:50 PM
McCall to Celtic anyone?


You're aware he played for Rangers? :cool2:

CropleyWasGod
22-05-2014, 04:58 PM
We now find that Motherwell have been racking up huge losses, have had to borrow heavily just to keep going this season and need £1.5 million to avert financial disaster. No wonder Leeanne jumped ship. That arrogant buffoon Tam Cowan has been singing right out of the Hearts song book 'Spend, spend, spend'. Well it is all coming home to roost now with yet another club recklessly running their affairs, and not for the first time.
Thank god for Farmer and Petrie!!! ( Tin hat on)

To be fair, they're hardly huge losses. A bit of cost-cutting will sort them out.

And they don't need £1.5m. They need another £350k to complete the fan-ownership model they started.

Famous Fiver
22-05-2014, 06:12 PM
CWG

Welcome to the debate.

My point is that at the present rate of spending we are looking at around £1.5 Mill to keep them afloat before fans take over. Not on the same scale as our smelly neighbours but the principle is the same. Another example of misguided financial governance and resulting in my comment thank god for Farmer and Petrie Many on here want us to play fast and loose with our finances to achieve success on the field. I want success as much as the next fan but I do no want to follow the Sevco, Fir Park or PBS method.

Diclonius
22-05-2014, 06:17 PM
CWG

Welcome to the debate.

My point is that at the present rate of spending we are looking at around £1.5 Mill to keep them afloat before fans take over. Not on the same scale as our smelly neighbours but the principle is the same. Another example of misguided financial governance and resulting in my comment thank god for Farmer and Petrie Many on here want us to play fast and loose with our finances to achieve success on the field. I want success as much as the next fan but I do no want to follow the Sevco, Fir Park or PBS method.

I don't want us to do that, nor do I want our board to haggle for every penny of every transfer deal and cust costs to the detriment of the playing squad at every possible opportunity. There is a middle ground and clubs like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and St Johnstone are an example of this.

The financial approach we have taken to running this football club has rewarded us at best with mediocrity since 2007 and outright failure since 2010. Those are the facts.

CropleyWasGod
22-05-2014, 06:19 PM
CWG

Welcome to the debate.

My point is that at the present rate of spending we are looking at around £1.5 Mill to keep them afloat before fans take over. Not on the same scale as our smelly neighbours but the principle is the same. Another example of misguided financial governance and resulting in my comment thank god for Farmer and Petrie Many on here want us to play fast and loose with our finances to achieve success on the field. I want success as much as the next fan but I do no want to follow the Sevco, Fir Park or PBS method.

I agree with some of what you say. However, I don't think that Well have been irresponsible in the same way as the other two. They spent a bit extra, in the hope that income would rise accordingly (not for the first time, of course). It didn't, and it will be interesting to see what they do next.
To carry on as they have would be daft. However, they're nowhere near the HMFC and RFC stage.
It does strike me that the inability of the club to attract additional fans is one of the reasons why LD has moved on. She probably has done as much as she could there.

Albion Hibs
22-05-2014, 06:37 PM
I posted about this issue when we found out about Leanne Dempster joining us. A wee bit worrying that Motherwell can't make money after coming 2nd two years on the trot.


Another example of a club living beyond there means and not managing themselves properly aka cheating!

500miles
22-05-2014, 06:47 PM
I don't want us to do that, nor do I want our board to haggle for every penny of every transfer deal and cust costs to the detriment of the playing squad at every possible opportunity. There is a middle ground and clubs like Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and St Johnstone are an example of this.

The financial approach we have taken to running this football club has rewarded us at best with mediocrity since 2007 and outright failure since 2010. Those are the facts.

Aberdeen are an example? Aberdeen are having a good season in two decades of utter garbage. Not only that, but they are £15 million in debt, and need the council to help fund a new stadium.

CropleyWasGod
22-05-2014, 08:03 PM
Another example of a club living beyond there means and not managing themselves properly aka cheating!

We have made losses in recent years. Were we cheating in those years?

green&left
23-05-2014, 08:37 AM
The citizens of Motherwell are too busy getting on buses to Parkhead and Ibrox every week. Success is wasted on them.

Don't think that's the case anymore. Celtic have only been getting 25000-30000 most weeks. If that 25k-30k is getting swelled by out of towners then they should be more worried than Motherwell! Sky Sports and the EPL are a bigger issue now than the Glasgow two.

2004-2005 Motherwell finished 7th and averaged just under 7000. 2012-2013 season they finished 2nd and averaged 5300. 2013-2014 season again finished 2nd and averaged 5100. I know you've no hun fixtures to take into account. But is a worrying stat for them that they have almost lost 2000 of their average gate despite but their best spell in about 90 years.

Too many televised games at daft kick-off times and too expensive tickets is why they aren't getting more punters in. Along with the entire league, paying mediocre dafties too much cash is now why their struggling.... Hardly rocket science.

AndyM_1875
23-05-2014, 10:10 AM
Aberdeen are an example? Aberdeen are having a good season in two decades of utter garbage. Not only that, but they are £15 million in debt, and need the council to help fund a new stadium.

Aberdeen got a load of their debt written off by Milne and other investors.

Think it's now about 5 or 6 million.

number9dream
23-05-2014, 10:11 AM
We have made losses in recent years. Were we cheating in those years?

Our next set of accounts are sure to show a loss, with poor league finish, low crowds, no cup run and shelling out compo to ICT.
That's with a sensible wage to turnover ratio at around 50%.

CropleyWasGod
23-05-2014, 10:13 AM
Our next set of accounts are sure to show a loss, with poor league finish, low crowds, no cup run and shelling out compo to ICT.
That's with a sensible wage to turnover ratio at around 50%.

Agreed.

But, we can't be accused of cheating, which is what the previous poster was suggesting about Motherwell.

NAE NOOKIE
23-05-2014, 02:55 PM
First things first .... If every club in debt is cheating then 99% of clubs in Europe are cheats including us.

There is a difference between the Yams scenario where your are already into the stratosphere debt wise but keep spending money you know you dont have and what happens to most clubs where your investment doesnt pay off because of lack of success ... or in Motherwells case failure to get fans in your catchment area to support the club, in spite of your best efforts.

The idea is to strike a balance between not spending so much that you put your club at risk and speculating wisely to accumulate. In Motherwell's case they perhaps took the risk, but unwisely based projections an a presumption, rather than on what they had evidence of .... IE do well and the fans will come.

In our case there is hard evidence that if the club does well on the park the fans will come.

Motherwell and especially the Yams are bad examples to hold up in support of the theory that Hibs will implode if we take the slightest risk in a financial sense. Motherwell had the right idea, just in the wrong town ..... Edinburgh is a whole different ball game and IMO has a far better prospect of this sort of idea working.

Jones28
23-05-2014, 04:34 PM
You're aware he played for Rangers? :cool2:

...oh aye...wasn't thinking :greengrin

Wonder if they'll try and poach butcher off us then... :greengrin

500miles
23-05-2014, 05:30 PM
Aberdeen got a load of their debt written off by Milne and other investors.

Think it's now about 5 or 6 million.

I thought the same, but I can't find any links to it. The latest article I can find is one from the Daily Record at the tail end of 2013, saying that they had renegotiated the terms of the £10m bank loan, which now has to be paid back within the next five years. That means finding £2m a year.

And that's still without factoring in the fact that they are going cap in hand to the council for a new Stadium.

AndyM_1875
23-05-2014, 07:10 PM
Preference shares conversion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20516243

That's what rung a bell.

Ronniekirk
23-05-2014, 07:11 PM
...oh aye...wasn't thinking :greengrin

Wonder if they'll try and poach butcher off us then... :greengrin

Wont be too difficult after some of the personal abuse he has had recently from Hibs fans Would just be out luck if he turns it around next season and then he is poached .

Albion Hibs
23-05-2014, 07:19 PM
We have made losses in recent years. Were we cheating in those years?

There is a difference between having a few years at a financial loss, and having to turn to fans to keep the club going would you not agree? Also did we not make a profit last year?

CropleyWasGod
23-05-2014, 07:28 PM
There is a difference between having a few years at a financial loss, and having to turn to fans to keep the club going would you not agree? Also did we not make a profit last year?

We have made profits in 5 of the last 7 years, which implies that we have made losses in at least 3 out of the last 8.

Losses are losses. However, it's whether they are sustainable that is the key. Ours were, Hearts weren't, and it remains to be see whether Motherwell's are. I suspect they're not.

Consider this scenario. A club spends heavily in year 1, as a "speculate to accumulate" policy, which many have advocated for us. As such, it makes a loss of £1m. In year 2, the team doesn't gel, and a further £1m loss happens. In year 3, though, it all comes together; couple of cup runs, finish high up the league, sell a promising player. Result £3m profit.

Overall, that's a profit over the three years of £1m. Were they cheating in years 1 and 2? Don't think many would say so.

That's the model that Well have followed. It hasn't worked. It's a failed strategy, but it's certainly not cheating IMO.

Albion Hibs
23-05-2014, 07:52 PM
We have made profits in 5 of the last 7 years, which implies that we have made losses in at least 3 out of the last 8. It is more of a fact than implied as you say.

Losses are losses. However, it's whether they are sustainable that is the key. Ours were, Hearts weren't, and it remains to be see whether Motherwell's are. I suspect they're not. Agreed, and basically my point and the basis of the newspaper story the thread relates to.

Consider this scenario. A club spends heavily in year 1, as a "speculate to accumulate" policy, which many have advocated for us. As such, it makes a loss of £1m. In year 2, the team doesn't gel, and a further £1m loss happens. In year 3, though, it all comes together; couple of cup runs, finish high up the league, sell a promising player. Result £3m profit. What a lovely story, but Motherwell are not a new club they have been around for a long time, playing in this league for a long time so they know the constraints that are required to run a club in the spl, maybe players like McManus and McFadden have been players they can't afford. Further to that they have as you say speculated, and there has been no accumulation, in the meantime we have taken more than a few beatings off them, I don't see how that can be consider fair or playing within the rules, or not cheating for that matter.

Overall, that's a profit over the three years of £1m. Were they cheating in years 1 and 2? Don't think many would say so. See above, implementing your business strategy does not seem to have worked.

That's the model that Well have followed. It hasn't worked. It's a failed strategy, but it's certainly not cheating IMO.

comments above. Fair to say I disagree.

Ozyhibby
23-05-2014, 08:07 PM
It's cheating if you don't pay it back.

VivaHiberña
23-05-2014, 08:14 PM
comments above. Fair to say I disagree.

Debts are not cheating, not paying them is. Until Motherwell either avoid paying their debts or it transpires that that was their intention all along we have assume they're not cheating.

For example, if this summer they engage in a massive cost-cutting exercise and repay all their debts at no point have they cheated.

Lets not jump to conclusions.

Albion Hibs
23-05-2014, 08:31 PM
Debts are not cheating, not paying them is. Until Motherwell either avoid paying their debts or it transpires that that was their intention all along we have assume they're not cheating.

For example, if this summer they engage in a massive cost-cutting exercise and repay all their debts at no point have they cheated.

Lets not jump to conclusions.

cheat
tʃiːt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

regardless if they change the tide this summer they have gained an advantage by living beyond there means and presumably the debt facility they have been offered by their funder, alas they are now turning to the fans before they end up I "crisis". I accept that football clubs will make losses however they will generally do this working with a facility or agreement they have with a funder, not least demonstrating that they are reducing operational costs.


regardless we have taken some batterings off them in recent seasons not least this season when we took only a point off them, ending up i a relegation dog with players like McManus proving decisive...a player that we got out bid for? Tell me that does not make you feel cheated?

VivaHiberña
23-05-2014, 08:45 PM
cheat
tʃiːt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

regardless if they change the tide this summer they have gained an advantage by living beyond there means and presumably the debt facility they have been offered by their funder, alas they are now turning to the fans before they end up I "crisis". I accept that football clubs will make losses however they will generally do this working with a facility or agreement they have with a funder, not least demonstrating that they are reducing operational costs.


regardless we have taken some batterings off them in recent seasons not least this season when we took only a point off them, ending up i a relegation dog with players like McManus proving decisive...a player that we got out bid for? Tell me that does not make you feel cheated?

Not really. They have not yet been shown to have "acted dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage," if they are the book should be thrown at them but like I said making a loss and running up a debt are not cheating. Hibs are currently in about £5.5m of debt and have made losses over a few of the past seasons, we are however paying that debt off. Motherwell deserve the chance to do the same. Innocent until proven guilty.

They are turning to the fans to buy the club, not bail them out. Either way, neither involve actually avoiding debt so neither can be construed as gaining an unfair advantage, or cheating.

Don't get me wrong, running up unsustainable debts to buy success then just not paying them back is in my view one of the worst offences a football club can commit; not only are they breaking the rules which every other club follows to achieve success but they harm the reputation (and credit rating) of other clubs in the league, thus making life tougher for the well-run clubs whom they cheated out of success in the first place. However, lets see that MFC are actually cheats before we start calling them so.

Albion Hibs
23-05-2014, 09:06 PM
Not really. They have not yet been shown to have "acted dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage," if they are the book should be thrown at them but like I said making a loss and running up a debt are not cheating. Hibs are currently in about £5.5m of debt and have made losses over a few of the past seasons, we are however paying that debt off. Motherwell deserve the chance to do the same. Innocent until proven guilty.

They are turning to the fans to buy the club, not bail them out. Either way, neither involve actually avoiding debt so neither can be construed as gaining an unfair advantage, or cheating.

Don't get me wrong, running up unsustainable debts to buy success then just not paying them back is in my view one of the worst offences a football club can commit; not only are they breaking the rules which every other club follows to achieve success but they harm the reputation (and credit rating) of other clubs in the league, thus making life tougher for the well-run clubs whom they cheated out of success in the first place. However, lets see that MFC are actually cheats before we start calling them so.

You don't think that they have gained an advantage by running beyond their means?

Having debt and not being able to service it are two totally different things, Motherwell are the latter, alas they are turning to the fans or by their own admission having to reduce the wage bill. The last part of that would imply the wages are too high for the business as is, if they cut that and live within there means do they finish 2nd, do they beat us 2-3 times per season.

IMO having players on their books that they can't afford gives them an unfair advantage.

CropleyWasGod
23-05-2014, 09:11 PM
You don't think that they have gained an advantage by running beyond their means?

Having debt and not being able to service it are two totally different things, Motherwell are the latter, alas they are turning to the fans or by their own admission having to reduce the wage bill. The last part of that would imply the wages are too high for the business as is, if they cut that and live within there means do they finish 2nd, do they beat us 2-3 times per season.

IMO having players on their books that they can't afford gives them an unfair advantage.

That's not what's happening, though.

They had started on the road to a community ownership model. They have realised some of that, but not all; as a result, if the supporters don't buy into it any more, they will have to seek outside investors to take up the ownership.

That is unrelated to the losses they have made. It would be the case no matter whether they made profits or not.

Albion Hibs
23-05-2014, 09:17 PM
That's not what's happening, though.

They had started on the road to a community ownership model. They have realised some of that, but not all; as a result, if the supporters don't buy into it any more, they will have to seek outside investors to take up the ownership.

That is unrelated to the losses they have made. It would be the case no matter whether they made profits or not.

The article states what they would have to do it they do not get the funds one of the routes, and they are very clear, is reduce the wage bill.

CropleyWasGod
23-05-2014, 09:22 PM
The article states what they would have to do it they do not get the funds one of the routes, and they are very clear, is reduce the wage bill.

They will have to do that anyway, though, whether they get the funds or not.

southsider
24-05-2014, 10:04 AM
I posted about this issue when we found out about Leanne Dempster joining us. A wee bit worrying that Motherwell can't make money after coming 2nd two years on the trot.
The motherwell area has always been a hotbed of footballing ability. Unfortunately most of ths fans in the area head for Castle Greyskull or Darkheid for their footy. A shame as McCall is doing a fantastic job there. I would take him at ER in a heartbeat.

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24-05-2014, 10:21 AM
That's not what's happening, though.

They had started on the road to a community ownership model. They have realised some of that, but not all; as a result, if the supporters don't buy into it any more, they will have to seek outside investors to take up the ownership.

That is unrelated to the losses they have made. It would be the case no matter whether they made profits or not.


Yup. Doyle brought Leann Dempster in for this very reason - to set up a community ownership scheme. I THINK initially they were looking at a fan input of £1.5 million, but now they're looking for £800,000 and business investment to take up the slack. I'm not positive; I haven't been paying a lot of attention to what's been happening at FP. (Been a bit taken up with signs of impending catastrophe elsewhere, tbh.)

However, I'd say categorically that accusations of 'cheating' similar to what's gone on at Tynecastle, Ibrox, Livingston and Gretna in years past (and may still be going on at at least one of those venues still) are premature at worst, unfounded at best.

If we're going to start throwing random accusations of cheating and double-dealing in the direction of Fir Park, we need to remember who's been in charge there for the last few seasons and where she'll be working from the first of next month ....

500miles
24-05-2014, 10:38 AM
Yup. Doyle brought Leann Dempster in for this very reason - to set up a community ownership scheme. I THINK initially they were looking at a fan input of £1.5 million, but now they're looking for £800,000 and business investment to take up the slack. I'm not positive; I haven't been paying a lot of attention to what's been happening at FP. (Been a bit taken up with signs of impending catastrophe elsewhere, tbh.)

However, I'd say categorically that accusations of 'cheating' similar to what's gone on at Tynecastle, Ibrox, Livingston and Gretna in years past (and may still be going on at at least one of those venues still) are premature at worst, unfounded at best.

If we're going to start throwing random accusations of cheating and double-dealing in the direction of Fir Park, we need to remember who's been in charge there for the last few seasons and where she'll be working from the first of next month ....

The problem is Doddie, I do remember, and it's causing me a bit of doubt.

NAE NOOKIE
24-05-2014, 12:13 PM
Burn the witch !!!

Hells bells ... Every day in every country in the world businesses go bust or have to make drastic cuts because they got their projections or business model wrong. It doesnt mean they were dishonest, it just means they made mistakes. In most cases the ones who do go under do so owing the bank and other businesses.

Motherwell borrowed money ( I presume ) to sign the likes of McFadden and a few others in the hope that success on the park would attract supporters .... unfortunately for them that didnt work out. Millions of businesses borrow from the bank in order to grow and improve things .... its standard business practice, not cheating.

Ever since the Current Buns and Yams it seems to me that people are seeing cheats round every corner ... These two clubs did things which were way beyond normal business practice and did them in the full knowledge that they were either illegal or unworkable from the very outset. That is cheating.

What Motherwell and I dare say other clubs have done is not. I hope for the sake of the folk who support the club they regain stability

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24-05-2014, 12:45 PM
Burn the witch !!!

Hells bells ... Every day in every country in the world businesses go bust or have to make drastic cuts because they got their projections or business model wrong. It doesnt mean they were dishonest, it just means they made mistakes. In most cases the ones who do go under do so owing the bank and other businesses.

Motherwell borrowed money ( I presume ) to sign the likes of McFadden and a few others in the hope that success on the park would attract supporters .... unfortunately for them that didnt work out. Millions of businesses borrow from the bank in order to grow and improve things .... its standard business practice, not cheating.

Ever since the Current Buns and Yams it seems to me that people are seeing cheats round every corner ... These two clubs did things which were way beyond normal business practice and did them in the full knowledge that they were either illegal or unworkable from the very outset. That is cheating.

What Motherwell and I dare say other clubs have done is not. I hope for the sake of the folk who support the club they regain stability


My thoughts exactly. Paranoia rules, OK? Sometimes I think all a team has to do to be accused of cheating round here is finish one place higher in the League than Hibs. The logic seems to be that they're a smaller club than Hibs; they're playing better football and getting better results than Hibs (not difficult over the past few years); the financial probity of STF and RP is beyond question; WE're the good guys but our results stink; THEREFORE _________________ (insert name of the team in question) MUST BE CHEATING!!!!!!!

You could say that Hibs have been cushioned from the vagaries of the cruel world of finance by the backing of the owner; thanks to STF we haven't been exposed to the pressures that clubs like Motherwell have had to deal with. That may have been good for us in financial terms; I don't think it's been good for us in general football terms. Putting financial stability and balancing the accounts is obviously a good thing - I'm not saying it's not - but these issues are only steps along the road to the main purpose of any football club - putting a team on the field that's competitive and attractive, so that people want to come to see them, the stadium's well-filled on match-days, and gate-receipts and sale of merchandise furnish a substantial and (hopefully) increasing source of income to the club TO FURTHER IMPROVE THE TEAM.

I have to say that our frequent harping on about Hibs financial probity and concern with balanced accounts too often takes on a distinct aroma of of 'holier-than-thou'. Farmer and Petrie aren't the only honest men in Scottish football.

I consider that they HAVE indeed been honest in their running of the club, and I salute them for it, but they're not all-wise - far from it.

Ultimately, they're the men responsible for the state and situation the club finds itself in this weekend. And winning tomorrow won't provide any long-term resolution of the problems; it only gives the board and the new CEO a bit of breathing-space to sort things out.

Whether RP in particular (sadly, STF's health is very poor these days, I'm sorry to say) will allow our new CEO to do what needs to be done without interference remains to be seen.

But I've grown very cynical about what goes on at ER over the past few years, and I have no intentions of holding my breath on THAT one.