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thefifer1959
12-05-2014, 06:16 PM
Come on my fellow Brother and sisters,

This crap about Butcher should go if this or that happens. what the heck is this all about. Have we lost sight of who's team this really Is.

Fenlon!! was the one who brought this BUNCH OF NO-HOPPERS to HIB'S Not Butcher. so come on Give the man a decent run for his money and our sanity. he has always said that come summer new faces will be coming in and that Christmas time was no time for panic buy's.

November to this day is not long enough for us to Judge, we are a big club but that doesn't give us the right to be one of the best over night, for to long now the board have sacked Managers for not getting results, when what we should be doing is giving he manager a fair crack at the Job and allow them to show what they can do.

Two more seasons for Butcher enough time for him to get results and give us back our pride.

LONG GONE ARE THE TURNBULL YEARS.

Beefster
12-05-2014, 06:18 PM
Get ready...

MWHIBBIES
12-05-2014, 06:28 PM
They weren't rubbish when Fenlon was here though. Craig, Nelson, Harris, Collins and McGivern were all better players under Fenlon.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 06:28 PM
Come on my fellow Brother and sisters,

This crap about Butcher should go if this or that happens. what the heck is this all about. Have we lost sight of who's team this really Is.

Fenlon!! was the one who brought this BUNCH OF NO-HOPPERS to HIB'S Not Butcher. so come on Give the man a decent run for his money and our sanity. he has always said that come summer new faces will be coming in and that Christmas time was no time for panic buy's.

November to this day is not long enough for us to Judge, we are a big club but that doesn't give us the right to be one of the best over night, for to long now the board have sacked Managers for not getting results, when what we should be doing is giving he manager a fair crack at the Job and allow them to show what they can do.

Two more seasons for Butcher enough time for him to get results and give us back our pride.

LONG GONE ARE THE TURNBULL YEARS.

Yes, lets give the guy a chance. He has already stated he brought in loans over the X-mas break because he had players lined up for the summer. He has once again stated that we just need to stay up and there are players that will come. I'd rather bring in some quality than make a rush signing - people are saying "Doherty" and "Soares" had an affect at Hibs? Haha yeah, both by being a poor standard of player. Doherty couldn't have given 2 tosses about our thrashing in the SC Final and I recall him making a statement on his Twitter account saying "Another day tomorrow to get the rest of my shopping done!" after the derby (probably got some shopping done in Glasgow whilst through). He clearly viewed his time up at Hibs as a bit of a holiday. Soares flattered to deceive and did pretty much nothing. O'Donovan scored 1 goal in 14 games and is proclaimed to have had a bigger effect than what we have. Eh, Watmore is better than all 3 of these but has, sadly, not been given any protection by the refs. Clearly chopped down in Raith games and against Killie. There is an intent to injure as well.

This "sack the manager" trash has to stop. Terry is looking visibly ill and frustrated. I'd take a manager who appears to care, I'd take an assistant that rants back at the abusive fans any day. Better that than having solemn wasters who couldn't give a toss (aka Calderwood).

This is Fenlon and Calderwoods fault. Calderwood destroyed moral at the club to almost disastrous levels, and was smug and aloof about it. Fenlon tried to recover some respect and did that. However, we must look forward and move forward.

WE NEED TO STOP THINKING ABOUT BYGONE DAYS!

21.05.2016
12-05-2014, 06:29 PM
I agree, far too early IMO to be calling for Butcher to go. He is still working with a bunch of gutless nobodies that Fenlon cobbled together. He didn't do much in the January window, he obviously thought he had enough in the team to see out the season and then the work would start in the summer for the new season (TBF he like everybody else could never have predicted how heavily we would spiral).

He hasn't covered himself in glory with some of his substitutions but I will reserve my judgment on him until after he has had time and the chance to clear out Fenlons utter garbage of a team and build HIS squad.

He has a better chance of turning things around if we give him a bit of support. I understand how frustrated we all are and we have every right to be but I think turning on the manager and wanting him to leave already is a bit ridiculous IMO.

WestStandMoaner
12-05-2014, 06:29 PM
Come on my fellow Brother and sisters,

This crap about Butcher should go if this or that happens. what the heck is this all about. Have we lost sight of who's team this really Is.

Fenlon!! was the one who brought this BUNCH OF NO-HOPPERS to HIB'S Not Butcher. so come on Give the man a decent run for his money and our sanity. he has always said that come summer new faces will be coming in and that Christmas time was no time for panic buy's.

November to this day is not long enough for us to Judge, we are a big club but that doesn't give us the right to be one of the best over night, for to long now the board have sacked Managers for not getting results, when what we should be doing is giving he manager a fair crack at the Job and allow them to show what they can do.

Two more seasons for Butcher enough time for him to get results and give us back our pride.

LONG GONE ARE THE TURNBULL YEARS.

Butcher has to go, he has managed to oversee the biggest collapse of Hibs team that I can recall

Jim44
12-05-2014, 06:30 PM
Come on my fellow Brother and sisters,

This crap about Butcher should go if this or that happens. what the heck is this all about. Have we lost sight of who's team this really Is.

Fenlon!! was the one who brought this BUNCH OF NO-HOPPERS to HIB'S Not Butcher. so come on Give the man a decent run for his money and our sanity. he has always said that come summer new faces will be coming in and that Christmas time was no time for panic buy's.

November to this day is not long enough for us to Judge, we are a big club but that doesn't give us the right to be one of the best over night, for to long now the board have sacked Managers for not getting results, when what we should be doing is giving he manager a fair crack at the Job and allow them to show what they can do.

Two more seasons for Butcher enough time for him to get results and give us back our pride.

LONG GONE ARE THE TURNBULL YEARS.

Your choice of language to describe the strong desire to see the back of Butcher is more suited to his performance and the way he has dragged us to the point of hopelessness. Even a blindfolded monkey would have 'lucked' us to a few more results than he has. If he somehow flukes a couple of performances and keeps us up, I will reluctantly agree that he should get some time to show his worth. If we go down, I think his position would be untenable. Personally I hope he goes.

Centre Hawf
12-05-2014, 06:34 PM
Yes, lets give the guy a chance. He has already stated he brought in loans over the X-mas break because he had players lined up for the summer. He has once again stated that we just need to stay up and there are players that will come. I'd rather bring in some quality than make a rush signing - people are saying "Doherty" and "Soares" had an affect at Hibs? Haha yeah, both by being a poor standard of player. Doherty couldn't have given 2 tosses about our thrashing in the SC Final and I recall him making a statement on his Twitter account saying "Another day tomorrow to get the rest of my shopping done!" after the derby (probably got some shopping done in Glasgow whilst through). He clearly viewed his time up at Hibs as a bit of a holiday. Soares flattered to deceive and did pretty much nothing. O'Donovan scored 1 goal in 14 games and is proclaimed to have had a bigger effect than what we have. Eh, Watmore is better than all 3 of these but has, sadly, not been given any protection by the refs. Clearly chopped down in Raith games and against Killie. There is an intent to injure as well.

This "sack the manager" trash has to stop. Terry is looking visibly ill and frustrated. I'd take a manager who appears to care, I'd take an assistant that rants back at the abusive fans any day. Better that than having solemn wasters who couldn't give a toss (aka Calderwood).

This is Fenlon and Calderwoods fault. Calderwood destroyed moral at the club to almost disastrous levels, and was smug and aloof about it. Fenlon tried to recover some respect and did that. However, we must look forward and move forward.

WE NEED TO STOP THINKING ABOUT BYGONE DAYS!

Stop thinking about bygone days but 99 percent of this post is about how keek previous players and managers were? If were forgetting bygone days then you're asking us to judge the situation as it is in its present condition. Which is utter terrible.

For what its worth Fenlons time at Hibs was coming to an end. But none of this is on him. This is Butchers mess and his alone.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 06:38 PM
They weren't rubbish when Fenlon was here though. Craig, Nelson, Harris, Collins and McGivern were all better players under Fenlon.

Under your reasoning, would Messi and Ronaldo be relegation candidates under a different manager? Good players are good players regardless of who their manager is. Never does a good player go from an absolute Hero to a Zero because one person changes. Put it this way, why does Craig now regularly try a hooked volley pass (without looking)? Because sadly, they are bottle merchants. I have seen Stanton and KT keep the ball in tight situations and keep the ball and make space and create. Every single other seems to have **** their pants and wants to offload the ball pronto.

McGivern has been useless at crossing and grossly unable to get back (due to fitness and pace) even whilst Fenlon was here. The only difference is Fenlon told him to stay within his own half and never cross. "Get it to Griffiths" was Fenlons motto and rightly so. Harris is just back from a horrendously long injury layoff so I can't imagine what you are basing this on?

Nelson and Collins. Where do I begin? Nelson played better when Hanlon was in the team because I cannot stress how important Hanlon is for us. People slate him but he is actually not an awful defender and can pass! Nelson has regularly kicked the ball out of play all season as far as I can recall. I guess we were playing more side-ways passing under Fenlon though...Collins, has never looked a better player, he has been consistently average. Huge workrate but no peaks or troughs in performances really - indifferent.

What people are also forgetting is that Butcher has had to put up with one of the worst injury records the club has suffered for a few years. Some of our crucial players have been injured at the wrong times.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 06:44 PM
Stop thinking about bygone days but 99 percent of this post is about how keek previous players and managers were? If were forgetting bygone days then you're asking us to judge the situation as it is in its present condition. Which is utter terrible.

For what its worth Fenlons time at Hibs was coming to an end. But none of this is on him. This is Butchers mess and his alone.

Yes. I'm pointing out that people keep harping on about how good Fenlon was and we were in 5th, blah blah blah. They seem to have forgotten the bad times and/or are suppressing them. Things were equally poor then and we sacked managers. Fenlon got 2 years. People want Butcher out after 7 months without a summer transfer window, it is just ludicrous. His mess alone? I've never heard so much nonsense, really haven't. He has 3 players, out of a large squad, who he actually brought in. None of it is on Fenlon...haha when does he get knighted?

rcarter1
12-05-2014, 06:49 PM
They weren't rubbish when Fenlon was here though. Craig, Nelson, Harris, Collins and McGivern were all better players under Fenlon.

Craig - lots of detractors while he was playing under Fenlon.
Nelson - people were moaning how poor his distribution was from the get go.
Harris - injured mostly and slowly returning, so can't compare.
Collins - always praised for effort, but was under pressure before Butcher came in
McGivern - this guy has been pretty inept all season.

Before Fenlon left we were a football team going absolutely nowhere. We were in the top 6 but had just been beaten by Hearts, and outplayed by Aberdeen. It was clear to many that this team was not a top6 team. Inverness, Motherwell, Aberdeen, and Dundee Utd were all looking in better shape than us under Fenlon. Butcher managed a brief partial revival, before killing the team spirt with his comments about their quality etc.

Butcher has mismanaged the situation, but under no circumstances were the players good enough under Fenlon.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 06:53 PM
Good players are good players regardless of who their manager is.

Good managers get the best out of what is available to them. Your reasoning here is totally flawed as it implies that the players will always perform to their level regardless of who is in charge. Why even have a manager?

He is doing a bad job.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 06:56 PM
Yes. I'm pointing out that people keep harping on about how good Fenlon was and we were in 5th, blah blah blah. They seem to have forgotten the bad times and/or are suppressing them. Things were equally poor then and we sacked managers. Fenlon got 2 years. People want Butcher out after 7 months without a summer transfer window, it is just ludicrous. His mess alone? I've never heard so much nonsense, really haven't. He has 3 players, out of a large squad, who he actually brought in. None of it is on Fenlon...haha when does he get knighted?

No-one has forgotten the bad times, but just because we were bad before doesn't make this ok. We have completely capitulated and I don't see why anyone would want to trust him with building our team for next season. He has absolutely demolished a boring, average SPFL team and turned them into the worst team in the league by a distance.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 07:08 PM
Good managers get the best out of what is available to them. Your reasoning here is totally flawed as it implies that the players will always perform to their level regardless of who is in charge. Why even have a manager?

He is doing a bad job.


No, you have grossly misunderstood what I stated. Are you saying that under a different manager Ronaldo would be tripping over his laces and looking like a right idiot? No, he wouldn't. He may play better, he may play worse depending on the style that the manager deploys. One things for sure though is if TB arranged for Ronaldo or Messi to play for us in the playoffs they would not, even under him, look like they should be amateur footballers...

Sadly, like many Hibs fans, you are on a witch hunt (for understandable reasons) but to defend these players and attack the manager is futile and stupid. We sack another manager forking out compensation, we keep these wasters and eventually they'll walk out for free to other clubs and play well for whatever manager is there. Then we'll get a new manager, he'll bring in his own players (wasting money) and we wake up put our foot in the same puddle and realise it is Groundhog day.

Rankin being an example as he has played well for many managers but just not at Hibs. Doyle is doing better down south than he did for us at Hibs etc. Butcher has done a bad job but to suggest a manager is responsible for "professional" footballers being professional is flawed. It is a job. Could you blame your manager if you were useless? No. So why can footballers who earn 1k+ a week minimum? Ridiculous.

As far as I can see, Butcher has told the players to wipe their own ****** but most seem to have enjoyed getting the Andrex supplied for them...I sense a John Collins (esque) type situation here.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 07:17 PM
No-one has forgotten the bad times, but just because we were bad before doesn't make this ok. We have completely capitulated and I don't see why anyone would want to trust him with building our team for next season. He has absolutely demolished a boring, average SPFL team and turned them into the worst team in the league by a distance.

Like the people who say "you want protest, you want Petrie out, ok then - what is your plan, what is your plan B, eh?". You want to protest, you want Butcher out, ok then - what is your plan, what is your plan B, eh? Who would you trust to build a team? At the moment, your choices are: "a kid that knows how to put lego together", "gary locke", "a blind man", "danny lennon", "a local garage owner", "a local builder", "terry butcher"...
I can't help but think, that from the above, for many, our survey will say "a kid that knows how to put lego together"...


He has absolutely demolished a boring, average SPFL team and turned them into the worst team in the league by a distance.

Some part of me hopes he absolutely demolishes this team further. They have bored me for £22 a week for 2+ years. They have constantly underachieved for years upon years and yet familiars stay around, festering being the suitable word. I might add that the spectacular failures have come on the big stage as well - embarrassment after embarrassment. Some would also argue that if Hibs are a boring, average SPFL team then what the hell is the point?

eastterrace
12-05-2014, 07:21 PM
Good managers get the best out of what is available to them. Your reasoning here is totally flawed as it implies that the players will always perform to their level regardless of who is in charge. Why even have a manager?

He is doing a bad job.

maybe he is getting the best out of them due to them being pish.

ionahibby
12-05-2014, 07:23 PM
This blaming Fenlon for all our problems is becoming pretty boring now.

judas
12-05-2014, 07:27 PM
Under your reasoning, would Messi and Ronaldo be relegation candidates under a different manager? Good players are good players regardless of who their manager is. Never does a good player go from an absolute Hero to a Zero because one person changes. Put it this way, why does Craig now regularly try a hooked volley pass (without looking)? Because sadly, they are bottle merchants. I have seen Stanton and KT keep the ball in tight situations and keep the ball and make space and create. Every single other seems to have **** their pants and wants to offload the ball pronto.

McGivern has been useless at crossing and grossly unable to get back (due to fitness and pace) even whilst Fenlon was here. The only difference is Fenlon told him to stay within his own half and never cross. "Get it to Griffiths" was Fenlons motto and rightly so. Harris is just back from a horrendously long injury layoff so I can't imagine what you are basing this on?

Nelson and Collins. Where do I begin? Nelson played better when Hanlon was in the team because I cannot stress how important Hanlon is for us. People slate him but he is actually not an awful defender and can pass! Nelson has regularly kicked the ball out of play all season as far as I can recall. I guess we were playing more side-ways passing under Fenlon though...Collins, has never looked a better player, he has been consistently average. Huge workrate but no peaks or troughs in performances really - indifferent.

What people are also forgetting is that Butcher has had to put up with one of the worst injury records the club has suffered for a few years. Some of our crucial players have been injured at the wrong times.

The truest post of the week.:agree:

lyonhibs
12-05-2014, 07:33 PM
Come on my fellow Brother and sisters,

This crap about Butcher should go if this or that happens. what the heck is this all about. Have we lost sight of who's team this really Is.

Fenlon!! was the one who brought this BUNCH OF NO-HOPPERS to HIB'S Not Butcher. so come on Give the man a decent run for his money and our sanity. he has always said that come summer new faces will be coming in and that Christmas time was no time for panic buy's.

November to this day is not long enough for us to Judge, we are a big club but that doesn't give us the right to be one of the best over night, for to long now the board have sacked Managers for not getting results, when what we should be doing is giving he manager a fair crack at the Job and allow them to show what they can do.

Two more seasons for Butcher enough time for him to get results and give us back our pride.

LONG GONE ARE THE TURNBULL YEARS.

And if he relegates us??

Never mind the Turnbull era, I'm borderline yearning for the Blobby Williamson era!!

madhatter
12-05-2014, 07:36 PM
This blaming Fenlon for all our problems is becoming pretty boring now.

Who is blaming Fenlon? - in a positive thread about backing Butcher I've seen nothing but "get him out". I've stated facts about the players Fenlon brought in and sympathised with him for being the guy that came in after Calderwood. How about being bored out our minds about hearing about previous managers and how "we were in 5th", and how the current manager needs sacked. This all originating in largely a thread seeming to want to spread some support for Butcher - so how about all this being "pretty boring now"? In fact, "sack the manager" was "pretty boring" about 10 years ago but it's still trending amongst most fans clearly.

I also have not seen 1 post in this thread saying Fenlon is responsible for "all our problems". Seems to be a large proportion of people struggling to comprehend posts in all honesty. And in doing so try to breed negativity in a thread about supporting the current manager. Once again, no one, I have read on this thread, has said "Fenlon is to blame for all of this". I have seen many upon many threads and posts about "Fenlon had us in 5th and SC Finals and" blah blah blah. I have also seen a post on here that clearly states "This is Butchers mess and his alone.". You fed up of these comments as well, or do managers only get sympathy when they are sacked or walk away?

madhatter
12-05-2014, 07:50 PM
And if he relegates us??

Never mind the Turnbull era, I'm borderline yearning for the Blobby Williamson era!!


If the players relegate us, you mean. They've been here all season. And just incase people have forgotten. Record up until Fenlon left which if these superstars had won every game they could have accumulated 42 points up until end of November alone (Fenlon leaving). Lets have a look why don't we:

L, L, D, W, D, W, W, L, W, D, L, L, L, D = 16 points in 14 games I make it. Hardly terrific is it?

Managers don't relegate teams. Players do. Sooner people realise that the better.

coldingham hibs
12-05-2014, 07:52 PM
Come on my fellow Brother and sisters,

This crap about Butcher should go if this or that happens. what the heck is this all about. Have we lost sight of who's team this really Is.

Fenlon!! was the one who brought this BUNCH OF NO-HOPPERS to HIB'S Not Butcher. so come on Give the man a decent run for his money and our sanity. he has always said that come summer new faces will be coming in and that Christmas time was no time for panic buy's.

November to this day is not long enough for us to Judge, we are a big club but that doesn't give us the right to be one of the best over night, for to long now the board have sacked Managers for not getting results, when what we should be doing is giving he manager a fair crack at the Job and allow them to show what they can do.

Two more seasons for Butcher enough time for him to get results and give us back our pride.

LONG GONE ARE THE TURNBULL YEARS.

Who was it that brought in Boeteng, Watmore & Haynes (sorry if spelt wrong). These players have contributed nothing, can't blame Fenlon for them.

persevere1875
12-05-2014, 08:00 PM
This blaming Fenlon for all our problems is becoming pretty boring now.


Theirs only one person to blame for the demise of Hibs this season and thats who ever was responsible for not getting Griffiths and worse than that not getting in a competent replacement, IMHO Hibs are by no way the worst team in the SPL, Hibs are suffering because in 38 games we've scored just 31 goals pure and simple, the stats dont lie, if you dont score you can have all the possesion or build up play in the world it matters not a jot if they score the one chance and you squander all yours end of.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 08:00 PM
No, you have grossly misunderstood what I stated. Are you saying that under a different manager Ronaldo would be tripping over his laces and looking like a right idiot? No, he wouldn't. He may play better, he may play worse depending on the style that the manager deploys. One things for sure though is if TB arranged for Ronaldo or Messi to play for us in the playoffs they would not, even under him, look like they should be amateur footballers...

Sadly, like many Hibs fans, you are on a witch hunt (for understandable reasons) but to defend these players and attack the manager is futile and stupid. We sack another manager forking out compensation, we keep these wasters and eventually they'll walk out for free to other clubs and play well for whatever manager is there. Then we'll get a new manager, he'll bring in his own players (wasting money) and we wake up put our foot in the same puddle and realise it is Groundhog day.

Rankin being an example as he has played well for many managers but just not at Hibs. Doyle is doing better down south than he did for us at Hibs etc. Butcher has done a bad job but to suggest a manager is responsible for "professional" footballers being professional is flawed. It is a job. Could you blame your manager if you were useless? No. So why can footballers who earn 1k+ a week minimum? Ridiculous.

As far as I can see, Butcher has told the players to wipe their own ****** but most seem to have enjoyed getting the Andrex supplied for them...I sense a John Collins (esque) type situation here.

I don't understand the point in comparing Ronaldo and Messi and to those that are underperforming at ER. What I see is a team that were average having been mismanaged and are now in a relegation play off having taken 8 out of 57 points.

What is a more realistic comparison is maybe Tony Pulis and Palace, he didn't take much but took a team that was struggling and really turned them round. Without a summer transfer window. Gus Poyet has done similar at Sunderland. Butcher has done the opposite, in fact quite similar to Hughes at ICT the team is performing worse. Now however it has come about, whether he has told players to leave, whether they don't like the methods employed by him and Malpas or whether the players can't adapt to his tactics.

It IS this one man that is the catalyst for how things are at ER just now, if we were doing well would he be getting the credit, was he getting credit after we beat Hearts at new year?

I've never once defended the players, I think we should keep a few but very little. I don't think performances have been anywhere near acceptable. But I'm not on a witch hunt, I'm just simply agreeing with those that think where we are is unacceptable.

A managers job is to set expectations and make those that don't achieve them accountable. To suggest that a manager isn't responsible for keeping players professional is flawed not the other way round. He is there to manage them of course he is responsible. Look at Celtic with Griffiths and Stokes in the last couple of weeks, they both needed managed.

I'm not hounding him out the door, I just don't feel comfortable based on what I've seen over the last 7 months that he is the man for the job. If he stays I hope i'm wrong.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 08:02 PM
Who was it that brought in Boeteng, Watmore & Haynes (sorry if spelt wrong). These players have contributed nothing, can't blame Fenlon for them.

Are you wanting to play the who brought what in? For amusement because clearly people can't be told:


Soares, Doherty, Francomb, O'Donovan, Kujabi, Clancy, Kuqi? Vine? Mullen? Need I continue really?


Original poster was perhaps a bit over-exuberant in his criticism of Fenlon but his signings, and Calderwoods' signings being wage thieves, and being not great, have set this club back. May I remind you also that Boetang, Watmore and Haynes were brought in as temporary measures and will, barring something apocalyptic, not be here next season...

We cannot blame Fenlon for the 3 but where does the blame lie for the other 16+ others? Butcher still? I'd personally say the players but hey, lets all protect Fenlon and slate Butcher (our current manager btw)...

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 08:02 PM
maybe he is getting the best out of them due to them being pish.

Absolutely, 8 points out of 57 with a squad that had achieved 27 out of 57 in the first half of the season certainly indicates he has done an excellent job.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 08:15 PM
I don't understand the point in comparing Ronaldo and Messi and to those that are underperforming at ER. What I see is a team that were average having been mismanaged and are now in a relegation play off having taken 8 out of 57 points.

What is a more realistic comparison is maybe Tony Pulis and Palace, he didn't take much but took a team that was struggling and really turned them round. Without a summer transfer window. Gus Poyet has done similar at Sunderland. Butcher has done the opposite, in fact quite similar to Hughes at ICT the team is performing worse. Now however it has come about, whether he has told players to leave, whether they don't like the methods employed by him and Malpas or whether the players can't adapt to his tactics.

It IS this one man that is the catalyst for how things are at ER just now, if we were doing well would he be getting the credit, was he getting credit after we beat Hearts at new year?

I've never once defended the players, I think we should keep a few but very little. I don't think performances have been anywhere near acceptable. But I'm not on a witch hunt, I'm just simply agreeing with those that think where we are is unacceptable.

A managers job is to set expectations and make those that don't achieve them accountable. To suggest that a manager isn't responsible for keeping players professional is flawed not the other way round. He is there to manage them of course he is responsible. Look at Celtic with Griffiths and Stokes in the last couple of weeks, they both needed managed.

I'm not hounding him out the door, I just don't feel comfortable based on what I've seen over the last 7 months that he is the man for the job. If he stays I hope i'm wrong.


Please just look at my post regarding form up until November 23rd. If it was simply the manager then clearly, I'm struggling with logical thinking, because all I see is incapable players being brought in on the cheap, managers getting sacked and the next manager gets the same. Is the 5 year plan to continually sack managers over the space of 20 years until we luckily unearth a Hibs supporting "one of us" Alex Ferguson or something? Fans need to get real. We are failing for these reasons:

Other clubs speculate to accumulate; Hibs accumulate to speculate.
Other clubs strive to get best possible signings in, and as early as possible; Hibs leave it until 1 week before season starts and sign players then (3rd, 4th, 5th choice signing done on the cheap).
Other clubs realise that ultimately fans want to see a successful team on the pitch; Hibs think fans just want the club to engage with the community.
Other clubs have a better relationship with fans; Hibs have systematically disintegrated this through the years.
Other clubs do rallying calls and pull off big victories; Hibs fail and embarrass fans.

If you want the best, you need the best players and a decent manager. Players will always be more important than a manager. Your Crystal Palace example is flawed mainly due to the fact they have some skilful players that have a bit of class. Plus, guess what, they brought in players like Joe Ledley for a rumored price of 2.5mil. So, once again, argument flawed. Buy the best or expect the worst. Simple as.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 08:24 PM
Absolutely, 8 points out of 57 with a squad that had achieved 27 out of 57 in the first half of the season certainly indicates he has done an excellent job.

11 out of those 27 came when under Butcher did they not? So in actual fact:

16 points in 14 games for Fenlon = possibility of 42

Who on here has stated Butcher has done an excellent job? Some people are simply stating he has barely been in the door and hasn't brought in any of his earmarked players. The same fans that gave Fenlon 2 years are wanting Butcher kicked out. Are you lot serious? Not just Jambos sang "Only one Pat Fenlon!" whilst playing us. Remember that one, eh? Fun times sitting in the stands losing and/or struggling to pass the ball forward with the opposition fans singing "One Pat Fenlon!!!". Ah the good old days, eh...

Butcher, you shall, because you aren't Irish and have Rangers links, sadly get a short time at Hibs, and you will get your gonads flayed on an open fire soon enough...

People need to stop defaulting to "Sack the Manager". Has not got us anywhere and continually sets the club back 1-2 years each time. Hence why the club stuck with Fenlon so long. Gave him a chance and they were going to continue to until he left.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 08:55 PM
Please just look at my post regarding form up until November 23rd. If it was simply the manager then clearly, I'm struggling with logical thinking, because all I see is incapable players being brought in on the cheap, managers getting sacked and the next manager gets the same. Is the 5 year plan to continually sack managers over the space of 20 years until we luckily unearth a Hibs supporting "one of us" Alex Ferguson or something? Fans need to get real. We are failing for these reasons:

Other clubs speculate to accumulate; Hibs accumulate to speculate.
Other clubs strive to get best possible signings in, and as early as possible; Hibs leave it until 1 week before season starts and sign players then (3rd, 4th, 5th choice signing done on the cheap).
Other clubs realise that ultimately fans want to see a successful team on the pitch; Hibs think fans just want the club to engage with the community.
Other clubs have a better relationship with fans; Hibs have systematically disintegrated this through the years.
Other clubs do rallying calls and pull off big victories; Hibs fail and embarrass fans.

If you want the best, you need the best players and a decent manager. Players will always be more important than a manager. Your Crystal Palace example is flawed mainly due to the fact they have some skilful players that have a bit of class. Plus, guess what, they brought in players like Joe Ledley for a rumored price of 2.5mil. So, once again, argument flawed. Buy the best or expect the worst. Simple as.

The Palace example is perfectly relevant, it is all relative. £2.5 million is very little in the Premiership. Plus I notice you ignored Hughes and ICT as an example. A manager is responsible for the performance of the team. The fact is, especially as he accrued 11 of those points in the first half of the season, the players were performing to a level. He has changed things and now they have been underperforming

There are other things not right at Hibs, but there is no excuse for the rapid decline of this team. I've can't remember another team capitulate as badly as we have done this season.

And as for discrediting anyone who thinks he is doing a bad job with the Rangers stuff etc.... I haven't read a single post even mention it.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 08:57 PM
People need to stop defaulting to "Sack the Manager". Has not got us anywhere and continually sets the club back 1-2 years each time. Hence why the club stuck with Fenlon so long. Gave him a chance and they were going to continue to until he left.

The number of sackings isn't the issue, appointing the wrong person is. Get the right man and you won't have to worry about sacking him.

And before you ask who I suggest, I don't know, but the evidence so far indicates it isn't likely to be Butcher.

Hibernia&Alba
12-05-2014, 09:01 PM
If we stay up, Butcher will continue I think. Get relegated and he'll be gone. I may be proved wrong, but I think it might be that simple.

yeezus.
12-05-2014, 09:08 PM
It's nauseating reading this tripe about "Fenlon's duds", Butcher has been in charge for 6 months for god sake. He has to go ASAP

Stevie Reid
12-05-2014, 09:14 PM
If the players relegate us, you mean. They've been here all season. And just incase people have forgotten. Record up until Fenlon left which if these superstars had won every game they could have accumulated 42 points up until end of November alone (Fenlon leaving). Lets have a look why don't we:

L, L, D, W, D, W, W, L, W, D, L, L, L, D = 16 points in 14 games I make it. Hardly terrific is it?

Managers don't relegate teams. Players do. Sooner people realise that the better.

We had 15 points from 11 games when Fenlon left - a point per game average that would equate to 52 points over 38 games - we ended up with 35 points.

In every post I've made about Fenlon since he left I've said his time was up, but that doesn't change the fact that Butcher has unfortunately been an horrendous appointment.

Fenlon did much better with the players we had. Butcher was brought in to do better with what was there, then take us further. He has done much, much worse, and we have gone backwards at a startling rate - possibly as far backwards as it's possible to go, right into the Championship.

Fenlon is not to blame for where we are now.

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 09:17 PM
We had 15 points from 11 games when Fenlon left - a point per game average that would equate to 52 points over 38 games - we ended up with 35 points.

In every post I've made about Fenlon since he left I've said his time was up, but that doesn't change the fact that Butcher has unfortunately been an horrendous appointment.

Fenlon did much better with the players we had. Butcher was brought in to do better with what was there, then take us further. He has done much, much worse, and we have gone backwards at a startling rate - possibly as far backwards as it's possible to go, right into the Championship.

Fenlon is not to blame for where we are now.

Good post there Steve.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 09:17 PM
The Palace example is perfectly relevant, it is all relative. £2.5 million is very little in the Premiership. Plus I notice you ignored Hughes and ICT as an example. A manager is responsible for the performance of the team. The fact is, especially as he accrued 11 of those points in the first half of the season, the players were performing to a level. He has changed things and now they have been underperforming

There are other things not right at Hibs, but there is no excuse for the rapid decline of this team. I've can't remember another team capitulate as badly as we have done this season.

And as for discrediting anyone who thinks he is doing a bad job with the Rangers stuff etc.... I haven't read a single post even mention it.

Ok, you've went there so I'll go into it. ICT have accrued 57pts and finished 5th. Their stadium takes 7800 fans and in all honesty even whilst you may feel Hughes has ICT playing worse. They have still picked up good results. Look at the results in the top 6 barring the capitulation to Celtic. They've done not bad. Oh, and their cup performance against Hearts will always be firmly remembered. So, bad comparison again. You are comparing a team that considering their size, stature, and location have done very well in the SPFL to us, who clearly have not. Whether you judge what Hughes has done as a failure is inconclusive because they, on a whole, have done well.

You've also compared us to a relegation candidate in the EPL who gets approximately 30million a year in TV rights alone. It's all relative, right enough. Relatively not linked in anyway. May as well compare us with a failing Serie A team or Bundesliga team.

I've read drivel. But this takes the biscuit. On what planet can you say that a player that gets 300k per week is not responsible for his own performance and that of the team? Why have captains then, it's the manager's responsibility after all...

I guess, Wayne Rooney mumbling "Nice to see your own fans booing you, you football 'supporters'.", is right also? I guess he should be allowed to play like a blind man with no legs and yet he can dish it out to fans (paying on that occasion considerable amounts of dosh to support) and the manager's head is still the more likely to end up underneath the guillotine.

I can visualise it now. I'm sorry, I have been wrong. Surgeons have went in to the theatre and accidentally taken out a man's heart instead of his eye. Even though their superior (head of the hospital wasn't in attendance), they are to blame for their incompetence. Ah...

madhatter
12-05-2014, 09:20 PM
It's nauseating reading this tripe about "Fenlon's duds", Butcher has been in charge for 6 months for god sake. He has to go ASAP

Tell you what, you can pay the compensation then. Still as rowdy and confident about your statement? No, thought not.

You can also cover the costs of paying compensation at the club where this so called "ideal" replacement manager is. Or are you planning on becoming the manager?

Heedersnvolleys
12-05-2014, 09:29 PM
Please just look at my post regarding form up until November 23rd. If it was simply the manager then clearly, I'm struggling with logical thinking, because all I see is incapable players being brought in on the cheap, managers getting sacked and the next manager gets the same. Is the 5 year plan to continually sack managers over the space of 20 years until we luckily unearth a Hibs supporting "one of us" Alex Ferguson or something? Fans need to get real. We are failing for these reasons:

Other clubs speculate to accumulate; Hibs accumulate to speculate.
Other clubs strive to get best possible signings in, and as early as possible; Hibs leave it until 1 week before season starts and sign players then (3rd, 4th, 5th choice signing done on the cheap).
Other clubs realise that ultimately fans want to see a successful team on the pitch; Hibs think fans just want the club to engage with the community.
Other clubs have a better relationship with fans; Hibs have systematically disintegrated this through the years.
Other clubs do rallying calls and pull off big victories; Hibs fail and embarrass fans.

If you want the best, you need the best players and a decent manager. Players will always be more important than a manager. Your Crystal Palace example is flawed mainly due to the fact they have some skilful players that have a bit of class. Plus, guess what, they brought in players like Joe Ledley for a rumored price of 2.5mil. So, once again, argument flawed. Buy the best or expect the worst. Simple as.

Do you not do short posts?

Your argument back though is also flawed! 2.5 mil for a player in the EPL percentage of income wise is like us signing a player for £20k so hardly game changing!

What I think he is trying to get across is Crystal Palace are now organised, disciplined, have a work ethic and now hard to beat. All what we had hoped TB would bring to us. All things I had thought ICT had when he was there. He has brought none of that to us. You may need new players that suits his style of play buy a decent manager should at least get with the players at his disposal to do the above. A management team of 2 international defenders and we are a shambles at the back.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 09:37 PM
Hilarious comments on here. Truly are. We've been in decline since 2007 at the very least and yet because the **** has eventually hit the fans (destined to happen as far as I'm concerned - it was coming), people are blaming the current manager. Truly despicable. Especially when, from what I've seen on this forum, people are taking the 5-1, 3-0 SC Finals with a positive spin, they are taking the fact we got into Europe as a positive. Even though fans turned up in large numbers to get humiliated and a result has now been inserted in a record book.

In their time, every single manager after John Collins has been woeful at best. Not just Fenlon. When we should have been a guaranteed top6 team, we have regularly flirted with relegation and often flattered to deceive. Finishing 7th or above and resorting more and more to simple football.

Players need to be culpable and it just shows what an easy life they get. Various first team members out getting ******* on the night we confirm our place in a relegation playoff. Our manager looking physically older, 7 months into the job. In fact, he also looks quite ill and who do the large percentage of fans attack? The manager. Absurd.

So much so, we had a thread here, where people were asking those revolted by the players going on a bender, if they knew the employment laws regarding this being a breach of contract? And that this is acceptable as they don't have another game for another 10 days...I truly hate to say this but people need to get a grip. You are attacking a man that does visibly seem to care - at the previous (mini) protest, he had the decency to address the fans even though the flak was directed at him - and in the same vein many of you say these players going for a few drinks is fine.

These people have the easiest job on the planet. If they can't abstain from drinking after losing a vital game, they are wasters. If they can't do their job, even to a basic level (keep the ball/stop ball going into own net) then it is their fault. I'm sure Terry would have loved to have been sliding face first to block Boyd's shot to help the team but he can't. He only has flat footed defenders at the moment.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 09:40 PM
Ok, you've went there so I'll go into it. ICT have accrued 57pts and finished 5th. Their stadium takes 7800 fans and in all honesty even whilst you may feel Hughes has ICT playing worse. They have still picked up good results. Look at the results in the top 6 barring the capitulation to Celtic. They've done not bad. Oh, and their cup performance against Hearts will always be firmly remembered. So, bad comparison again. You are comparing a team that considering their size, stature, and location have done very well in the SPFL to us, who clearly have not. Whether you judge what Hughes has done as a failure is inconclusive because they, on a whole, have done well.

You've also compared us to a relegation candidate in the EPL who gets approximately 30million a year in TV rights alone. It's all relative, right enough. Relatively not linked in anyway. May as well compare us with a failing Serie A team or Bundesliga team.

I've read drivel. But this takes the biscuit. On what planet can you say that a player that gets 300k per week is not responsible for his own performance and that of the team? Why have captains then, it's the manager's responsibility after all...

I guess, Wayne Rooney mumbling "Nice to see your own fans booing you, you football 'supporters'.", is right also? I guess he should be allowed to play like a blind man with no legs and yet he can dish it out to fans (paying on that occasion considerable amounts of dosh to support) and the manager's head is still the more likely to end up underneath the guillotine.

I can visualise it now. I'm sorry, I have been wrong. Surgeons have went in to the theatre and accidentally taken out a man's heart instead of his eye. Even though their superior (head of the hospital wasn't in attendance), they are to blame for their incompetence. Ah...

You clearly don't understand the term relative. We are talking about how teams react with a change of manager, which you are saying has no impact as it's all down to the players. I used Crystal Palace to highlight the positive influence a new manager can have. I used ICT as an example of a negative, I don't feel Hughes has done worse than Butcher, his stats are significantly worse. Money etc... has nothing to do with it. The money is inconsequential as you are talking about the circumstances of that club. Much like when we compare Butchers record to every other Hibs manager.

Your point was it isn't Butchers fault, my point is that it is.

You can keep the snidey sarcastic remarks to yourself by the way.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 09:41 PM
Do you not do short posts?

Your argument back though is also flawed! 2.5 mil for a player in the EPL percentage of income wise is like us signing a player for £20k so hardly game changing!

What I think he is trying to get across is Crystal Palace are now organised, disciplined, have a work ethic and now hard to beat. All what we had hoped TB would bring to us. All things I had thought ICT had when he was there. He has brought none of that to us. You may need new players that suits his style of play buy a decent manager should at least get with the players at his disposal to do the above. A management team of 2 international defenders and we are a shambles at the back.

Yeah he missed the point then went off on one.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 09:50 PM
Do you not do short posts?

Your argument back though is also flawed! 2.5 mil for a player in the EPL percentage of income wise is like us signing a player for £20k so hardly game changing!

What I think he is trying to get across is Crystal Palace are now organised, disciplined, have a work ethic and now hard to beat. All what we had hoped TB would bring to us. All things I had thought ICT had when he was there. He has brought none of that to us. You may need new players that suits his style of play buy a decent manager should at least get with the players at his disposal to do the above. A management team of 2 international defenders and we are a shambles at the back.

No, I'm trying to drill this in. As people cannot comprehend it clearly.

No, they are not comparable. 2.5mil gets you Joe Ledley. 20k gets you Kenny Deuchar. One you would say is more likely to change games. On the hand also, Griffiths vs Collins being an example of financial terms being an incorrect comparison also - players attitude and skill matter; not cost. However, regularly cost is linked.

Crystal Palace. How many internationalists do they have playing in first team (starting)?

Mariappa : 16 caps (Jamaica)
Dikgacoi : 54 caps (South Africa)
Delanny : 8 caps (Republic of Ireland)
Jedinak : 43 caps (Australia)
Chamakh : 63 caps (Morocco)
Ledley : 50 caps (Wales)
Bolasie : 3 caps (DR Congo)

Yeah, ICT had decent players as well. Do people honestly think that as a good manager you can achieve much with useless players? Is that what we're talking about here? Really? Shambles at back? Haha, that isn't due to McGivern and Nelson right enough. That's due to management team who haven't managed to bless Nelson and McGivern with the power of pace and with the power to pass a ball. Haha...

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 09:53 PM
The players are culpable. What we looked for in Butcher was to work with them and maybe at least and I mean at least steady things. He hasn't steadied he has become as culpable as the players if not more so.

I expect a manager of this club even with these players to cobble more than one win in last 20. Terry has quite simply made a total mess of it this season.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 09:53 PM
You clearly don't understand the term relative. We are talking about how teams react with a change of manager, which you are saying has no impact as it's all down to the players. I used Crystal Palace to highlight the positive influence a new manager can have. I used ICT as an example of a negative, I don't feel Hughes has done worse than Butcher, his stats are significantly worse. Money etc... has nothing to do with it. The money is inconsequential as you are talking about the circumstances of that club. Much like when we compare Butchers record to every other Hibs manager.

Your point was it isn't Butchers fault, my point is that it is.

You can keep the snidey sarcastic remarks to yourself by the way.


Oh by the way, at no point did I say it wasn't Butcher's fault - go check my posts. I said placing all blame on this manager is ridiculous. Fenlon, Calderwood and all those that came before contributed to this. These players are contributing to this (in a great way). Whilst Butcher may not have had a great effect, these players should in their own right do better. They are paid to do better.

Snidey sarcastic remarks?

SMAXXA
12-05-2014, 09:56 PM
Butchers made a lot of mistakes between alienating a lot of his squad, snap judgments on people but the biggest of them all was his total failure in the january transfer window. There was a budget there and he didn't maximise it or bring in better players. If his view is that the squad is that bad a man in his position should have brought in better IMO. Granted January is more difficult than the summer however you get 2 transfer windows a season and he failed badly.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 09:56 PM
No, I'm trying to drill this in. As people cannot comprehend it clearly.

No, they are not comparable. 2.5mil gets you Joe Ledley. 20k gets you Kenny Deuchar. One you would say is more likely to change games. On the hand also, Griffiths vs Collins being an example of financial terms being an incorrect comparison also - players attitude and skill matter; not cost. However, regularly cost is linked.

Crystal Palace. How many internationalists do they have playing in first team (starting)?

Mariappa : 16 caps (Jamaica)
Dikgacoi : 54 caps (South Africa)
Delanny : 8 caps (Republic of Ireland)
Jedinak : 43 caps (Australia)
Chamakh : 63 caps (Morocco)
Ledley : 50 caps (Wales)
Bolasie : 3 caps (DR Congo)

Yeah, ICT had decent players as well. Do people honestly think that as a good manager you can achieve much with useless players? Is that what we're talking about here? Really? Shambles at back? Haha, that isn't due to McGivern and Nelson right enough. That's due to management team who haven't managed to bless Nelson and McGivern with the power of pace and with the power to pass a ball. Haha...

You've missed the point by miles, yes crystal palace have those players but so do every other team in that league. Hence it's relative as our squad is comparable with at least 5 or 6 teams in the league. So for Pulis to go in and take the side from bottom and finish miles clear of relegation displays the impact a manager can have. John Hughes going into ICT and taking them from 2nd down to 5th again shows the impact a manager can have. Gus Poyet again shows the impact a manager can have with his efforts at Sunderland.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 09:58 PM
Oh by the way, at no point did I say it wasn't Butcher's fault - go check my posts. I said placing all blame on this manager is ridiculous. Fenlon, Calderwood and all those that came before contributed to this. These players are contributing to this (in a great way). Whilst Butcher may not have had a great effect, these players should in their own right do better. They are paid to do better.

Snidey sarcastic remarks?

Drivel etc... Anyway we aren't going to agree so I'm out :)

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:00 PM
Yeah he missed the point then went off on one.

I didn't miss the point actually. Understood it perfectly. No one seems to understand that if we are to sack Butcher - we need a replacement (compensation likely), we need to pay Butcher et al compensation, we'd then need to get a whole new team as is evident. Who is going to pay for all this? Who is going to pay for it when it happens next year when we've sacked 1-2 managers whilst a team of "superstars" fails.

An example is Man Utd. Players didn't like Moyes; he got sacked. In all cases, did a good job at Everton and will be snapped up by another team soon enough. Is he a bad manager? Or were the players unprofessional?

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 10:04 PM
I didn't miss the point actually. Understood it perfectly. No one seems to understand that if we are to sack Butcher - we need a replacement (compensation likely), we need to pay Butcher et al compensation, we'd then need to get a whole new team as is evident. Who is going to pay for all this? Who is going to pay for it when it happens next year when we've sacked 1-2 managers whilst a team of "superstars" fails.

An example is Man Utd. Players didn't like Moyes; he got sacked. In all cases, did a good job at Everton and will be snapped up by another team soon enough. Is he a bad manager? Or were the players unprofessional?

What we want is we can't sack Butcher because of the good results in xyz and the good performances in abc. Regardless of what goes on elsewhere the only argument to keep him appears to be financial. Says it all to me as footballing wise there is zero and after 6 months there should be better reason for him to stay than what I have seen.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:09 PM
Drivel etc... Anyway we aren't going to agree so I'm out :)

Were not meant as being snidey comments and they weren't sarcastic. We, as a club, simply cannot keep sacking the manager. It is unsustainable and is constantly causing a deficit in our funds and hasn't, for at least 7 years, taken us forward. These comments weren't directed at you but at the attitude managers are always the main culpable party. How can a well liked manager move from one club (ICT) where he was successful and had received accolades to another club (Hibs) where he looks nothing but a disaster. It's what is around him - "You're only as good as those around you". A good manager wants good employees that can work with them.

He is to blame, the predecessors are to blame, the players are to blame. Change manager doesn't fix this; it is just passing the buck.

Anyway, have a good one! :flag:

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 10:11 PM
Were not meant as being snidey comments and they weren't sarcastic. We, as a club, simply cannot keep sacking the manager. It is unsustainable and is constantly causing a deficit in our funds and hasn't, for at least 7 years, taken us forward. These comments weren't directed at you but at the attitude managers are always the main culpable party. How can a well liked manager move from one club (ICT) where he was successful and had received accolades to another club (Hibs) where he looks nothing but a disaster. It's what is around him - "You're only as good as those around you". A good manager wants good employees that can work with them.

He is to blame, the predecessors are to blame, the players are to blame. Change manager doesn't fix this; it is just passing the buck.

Anyway, have a good one! :flag:

No the problem isn't we keep sacking mangers the problem is we keep hiring bad ones. We stop doing that then we do not need to sack anyone.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:14 PM
What we want is we can't sack Butcher because of the good results in xyz and the good performances in abc. Regardless of what goes on elsewhere the only argument to keep him appears to be financial. Says it all to me as footballing wise there is zero and after 6 months there should be better reason for him to stay than what I have seen.

"Says it all to me as footballing wise there is zero and after 6 months there should be better reason for" the players "to stay than what I have seen"? Can't apply this to a manager without applying it to his employees. Who are also the failing employees of his predecessor btw. I'm simply trying to stop this "sack the manager" trend. I do not in anyway show favoritism towards Butcher. I've liked other managers much more but sadly same story each time. Employees (players) who let down the employer (club - us) and a new manager (fall guy) gets hired.

FitbaFolkKen
12-05-2014, 10:18 PM
"Says it all to me as footballing wise there is zero and after 6 months there should be better reason for" the players "to stay than what I have seen"? Can't apply this to a manager without applying it to his employees. Who are also the failing employees of his predecessor btw. I'm simply trying to stop this "sack the manager" trend. I do not in anyway show favoritism towards Butcher. I've liked other managers much more but sadly same story each time. Employees (players) who let down the employer (club - us) and a new manager (fall guy) gets hired.

The reason the manager is the fall guy, as with any other business, is because it is their job to set expectations and then hold his employees accountable for those. That is what he is paid for, to manage those members of staff. Particularly relevant when it comes to dealing with under-performing individuals.

Diclonius
12-05-2014, 10:18 PM
Hilarious comments on here. Truly are. We've been in decline since 2007 at the very least and yet because the **** has eventually hit the fans (destined to happen as far as I'm concerned - it was coming), people are blaming the current manager. Truly despicable. Especially when, from what I've seen on this forum, people are taking the 5-1, 3-0 SC Finals with a positive spin, they are taking the fact we got into Europe as a positive. Even though fans turned up in large numbers to get humiliated and a result has now been inserted in a record book.

In their time, every single manager after John Collins has been woeful at best. Not just Fenlon. When we should have been a guaranteed top6 team, we have regularly flirted with relegation and often flattered to deceive. Finishing 7th or above and resorting more and more to simple football.

Players need to be culpable and it just shows what an easy life they get. Various first team members out getting ******* on the night we confirm our place in a relegation playoff. Our manager looking physically older, 7 months into the job. In fact, he also looks quite ill and who do the large percentage of fans attack? The manager. Absurd.

So much so, we had a thread here, where people were asking those revolted by the players going on a bender, if they knew the employment laws regarding this being a breach of contract? And that this is acceptable as they don't have another game for another 10 days...I truly hate to say this but people need to get a grip. You are attacking a man that does visibly seem to care - at the previous (mini) protest, he had the decency to address the fans even though the flak was directed at him - and in the same vein many of you say these players going for a few drinks is fine.

These people have the easiest job on the planet. If they can't abstain from drinking after losing a vital game, they are wasters. If they can't do their job, even to a basic level (keep the ball/stop ball going into own net) then it is their fault. I'm sure Terry would have loved to have been sliding face first to block Boyd's shot to help the team but he can't. He only has flat footed defenders at the moment.

:top marks

Butcher isn't absolved of blame for our current situation but the way things are panning out you'd think everything was fine until he took over. Our board will be laughing right now.

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 10:20 PM
It is my opinion that these players were better than 11th. Now for me Butcher has played a huge part in that and let's say some of the players have dropped off there performance then why have they?

Now yes if a player has dropped his game that's a disgrace and I don't want us to have these type of players but equally I don't want a manager here causing that or not doing enough about it.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:23 PM
No the problem isn't we keep sacking mangers the problem is we keep hiring bad ones. We stop doing that then we do not need to sack anyone.

What is a good one? We've hired ones with unquestionable success elsewhere so what is the answer? Ex-hibees? An inexperienced Ian Murray? We had Hughes after he did really well at Falkirk. We had Mixu and failed yet he did well at Killie. We, barring, a few bizarre appointments (Calderwood), have always went with someone who is perceived as a good choice. If we got Stuart McCall, people would be happy and if failure came about, we'd be here - "We keep hiring bad ones".

If it was all down to the manager, why did Tony Mowbray (48.15% win ratio with us) fail at Middlesborough? Why is John Collins (42.59% win ratio with us) not managing one of the top French teams?

Do not misinterpret me though, Butcher has been an unmitigated disaster so far. The summer will be his time though and he has to be given that. He can then resign in November, so we can save money.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:28 PM
The reason the manager is the fall guy, as with any other business, is because it is their job to set expectations and then hold his employees accountable for those. That is what he is paid for, to manage those members of staff. Particularly relevant when it comes to dealing with under-performing individuals.

I agree but you can't possibly think that even under Fenlon these players were playing to their potential. This goes further than manager. He could motivate ICT players so I don't see the difference...Chemistry is important between manager and players but I've seen managers come and go like there's no tomorrow. So, it must be a volatile chemical reaction at Hibs! Another thing is, he is likely to leave us and be successful elsewhere. So, is that still manager or was it players?

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 10:30 PM
What is a good one? We've hired ones with unquestionable success elsewhere so what is the answer? Ex-hibees? An inexperienced Ian Murray? We had Hughes after he did really well at Falkirk. We had Mixu and failed yet he did well at Killie. We, barring, a few bizarre appointments (Calderwood), have always went with someone who is perceived as a good choice. If we got Stuart McCall, people would be happy and if failure came about, we'd be here - "We keep hiring bad ones".

If it was all down to the manager, why did Tony Mowbray (48.15% win ratio with us) fail at Middlesborough? Why is John Collins (42.59% win ratio with us) not managing one of the top French teams?

Do not misinterpret me though, Butcher has been an unmitigated disaster so far. The summer will be his time though and he has to be given that. He can then resign in November, so we can save money.

Managers move clubs based on their record. TB had a good record at ICT but that means nothing now. He moved to new circumstance new players. Equally managers with poor records and get sacked also go onto next job and do well.

Mowbray got WBA job based on what he did at Hibs I guess largely doesn't mean it will work. I have never said it is all down to manager IMO these players though not the best for me were capable of better than 11th. We failed for me so I blame Butcher and if players dropped game that concerns me on TB influence also.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:36 PM
It is my opinion that these players were better than 11th. Now for me Butcher has played a huge part in that and let's say some of the players have dropped off there performance then why have they?

Now yes if a player has dropped his game that's a disgrace and I don't want us to have these type of players but equally I don't want a manager here causing that or not doing enough about it.

Performances have dropped off because players are out of contract (likely to have moves lined up) and don't want to get injured or at the very least know that they are away (hence Williams joking about with Boyd whilst we are 0-1 down in relegation battle). No manager can motivate a player or, employee for that matter, who is leaving. If you won the lottery or had another job lined up would you be working in your current job full-pelt? Unlikely, you may still put effort in but you wouldn't burst a gut or be creative, innovative and think how can I better the ways I'm doing things? These players are probably thinking - "Barbados or Ibiza for the summer?Hmm...". Some players are also on loan, so it's really viewed as a wee trip to Scotland before heading back to their "main" club - it is rare for players to think otherwise.

Until injuries occurred, Butcher played the same team that got him the consecutive wins. So, one can only assume players have dropped their games.

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 10:42 PM
Performances have dropped off because players are out of contract (likely to have moves lined up) and don't want to get injured or at the very least know that they are away (hence Williams joking about with Boyd whilst we are 0-1 down in relegation battle). No manager can motivate a player or, employee for that matter, who is leaving. If you won the lottery or had another job lined up would you be working in your current job full-pelt? Unlikely, you may still put effort in but you wouldn't burst a gut or be creative, innovative and think how can I better the ways I'm doing things? These players are probably thinking - "Barbados or Ibiza for the summer?Hmm...". Some players are also on loan, so it's really viewed as a wee trip to Scotland before heading back to their "main" club - it is rare for players to think otherwise.

Until injuries occurred, Butcher played the same team that got him the consecutive wins. So, one can only assume players have dropped their games.

If those players are not fighting for cause and you are seeing it then TB must surely see it and therefore show the man management skills to address this. It is all a sorry affair with bad players at club and unfortunately managed by somebody who thus far has shown nothing to convince me if anything positive.

You say about lottery and new job but the players that are leaving have they a club to go to? Have any signed a pre contract? If not perhaps best to keep up with your best in case being watched.

Hibbyradge
12-05-2014, 10:45 PM
Managers don't relegate teams. Players do. Sooner people realise that the better.

What if the manager is demotivating the players by bullying them?

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:50 PM
If those players are not fighting for cause and you are seeing it then TB must surely see it and therefore show the man management skills to address this. It is all a sorry affair with bad players at club and unfortunately managed by somebody who thus far has shown nothing to convince me if anything positive.

How would you get someone, who is leaving in 2 weeks, to improve their performance? Someone grossly overpaid I might add. Someone who, with the rest of the team, could as was seen with JC, force you out of the club?

As far as I see it, 60% of the blame lies with these players. They underperformed for previous management as well - there were players labelled as the "best" brought in from other clubs (Liam Craig) who has been a flop. 35% lies with the current management and the inability to motivate useless players. 5% lies with previous management(s) for amassing a trend of putting together a team that has horribly failed each year.

Drinks after relegation fight which was lost tells you about these players. Really does.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:55 PM
What if the manager is demotivating the players by bullying them?

Have they reported it to the teacher? In all seriousness, what do you think Alex Ferguson did? Was that bullying or motivating? When I played for a local team when I was younger, you could say I got "bullied" because of where I was from and how I spoke. You could say, I also managed to win the ball several times with crunching tackles during any practice matches we had. I also made it my duty to take the **** out of the bullies by nutmegging them and dribbling... I was a young lad and responded in this way. What way do men respond in?

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 10:56 PM
Were are they leaving to go to that allows them the luxury of not bothering now? They all got moves already signed? If not you not think best to not be involved in relegation battles and appearing not to care to potential new clubs?

Every club has players leaving at seasons end either pre contracted or simply non renewal so all pretty much a leveller. Danny Lennon had fair idea he might not be at St Mirren as it got closer to season end didn't stop him keeping pride and being the best in the split.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 10:58 PM
Were are they leaving to go to that allows them the luxury of not bothering now? They all got moves already signed? If not you not think best to not be involved in relegation battles and appearing not to care to potential new clubs?

Sorry, but you are thinking logically. We're talking about footballers here. Sadly, out of many bunches they still aren't the brightest...

Captain Trips
12-05-2014, 11:05 PM
Sorry, but you are thinking logically. We're talking about footballers here. Sadly, out of many bunches they still aren't the brightest...

There is a massive difference for a player in not being offered a new deal and players who have already agreed to a new club. I think most of ours are former therefore certainly best to do there best if player already agreed to new team then I guess they can not bother while still here if that was there inclination.

It appears you are suggesting that all these players are beyond motivating so TB can't do anything about it. I am not having that.

SMAXXA
12-05-2014, 11:19 PM
Have they reported it to the teacher? In all seriousness, what do you think Alex Ferguson did? Was that bullying or motivating? When I played for a local team when I was younger, you could say I got "bullied" because of where I was from and how I spoke. You could say, I also managed to win the ball several times with crunching tackles during any practice matches we had. I also made it my duty to take the **** out of the bullies by nutmegging them and dribbling... I was a young lad and responded in this way. What way do men respond in?

I know of one player who's spoke to the PFA so teacher as such.

madhatter
12-05-2014, 11:22 PM
I know of one player who's spoke to the PFA so teacher as such.

Seriously? On what grounds do they complain?

SMAXXA
12-05-2014, 11:25 PM
Seriously? On what grounds do they complain?

:agree: Won't go into detail but said younger player obviously felt the need

greenlex
13-05-2014, 02:36 AM
Up or down butcher and his team should stay.

greenlex
13-05-2014, 02:40 AM
There is a massive difference for a player in not being offered a new deal and players who have already agreed to a new club. I think most of ours are former therefore certainly best to do there best if player already agreed to new team then I guess they can not bother while still here if that was there inclination.

It appears you are suggesting that all these players are beyond motivating so TB can't do anything about it. I am not having that. you can only motivate them the best you can. If they don't have the right character then there is absolutely nothing you can do about that.

Waxy
13-05-2014, 05:47 AM
Starting a post Addressing everyone as brothers and sisters is yamlike.

proud_and_green
13-05-2014, 06:17 AM
I think all this 'butcher must go' 'fenlon was great' 'fenlon was *****' stuff misses the point. I think everyone seemed to get it when Butcher was appointed, there were comments like 'he must be given a decent time to get it right' ' the problems at this club go far deeper than the manager'.

The fact is we have now, if we include TB, had at least 5 failed managers - and most of those had pretty good records before they came to us. That fact alone points to it being rather simplistic and short termist to simply keep on sacking managers - it can only perpetuate the round of failed managers. We need to work on building a solid club and team.

Everyone knew this was a long term project, but the pain and frustration of the last few seasons has, I think, led us all to look at the most obvious without really doing the analysis.

Petrie has said there are big changes coming to the club, Leanne Dempster being the first, I would have thought we should wait and see what that brings because maybe that is the start of the right action being taken.

Give him time and he'll get it right.

bawheid
13-05-2014, 06:26 AM
I hadn't realised it was as simple as getting Tony Pulis in as manager.

What's Petrie waiting for? Sack Butcher and go get him!

Eh........

Captain Trips
13-05-2014, 06:37 AM
you can only motivate them the best you can. If they don't have the right character then there is absolutely nothing you can do about that.

Yes but it isn't even 100% this is even happening though. If it is I seriously doubt we managed to sign several players all with the same mentality regarding what to do when contract isn't renewed and also to be doubly unlucky and have them all ending at same.

bawheid
13-05-2014, 06:47 AM
Yes but it isn't even 100% this is even happening though. If it is I seriously doubt we managed to sign several players all with the same mentality regarding what to do when contract isn't renewed and also to be doubly unlucky and have them all ending at same.

Say that again?

FitbaFolkKen
13-05-2014, 09:14 AM
I hadn't realised it was as simple as getting Tony Pulis in as manager.

What's Petrie waiting for? Sack Butcher and go get him!

Eh........

I'm assuming that's aimed at me, it was an example of how a manager can influence a team. Clearly at no point was it suggested that we get Pulis.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

Lester B
13-05-2014, 09:56 AM
Have they reported it to the teacher? In all seriousness, what do you think Alex Ferguson did? Was that bullying or motivating? When I played for a local team when I was younger, you could say I got "bullied" because of where I was from and how I spoke. You could say, I also managed to win the ball several times with crunching tackles during any practice matches we had. I also made it my duty to take the **** out of the bullies by nutmegging them and dribbling... I was a young lad and responded in this way. What way do men respond in?

I'm sorry that is total and utter guff. People can be and are bullied in all walks of working life. There is no 'type' of person who is bullied. Bullying and harassment in the workplace is something I deal with in my day job. You want to come to work with me one day and tell a big guy over six foot tall who can't sleep and is crying his eyes out that his manager is motivating him not bullying him and he's not behaving like a man?? Sorry I am side tracking the debate here but this kind of macho nonsense sickens me.

Baker9
13-05-2014, 10:20 AM
I was delighted when TB was appointed. He has cleared the way for next season, roasted those players that he doesn't want, experimented with and given chances to young players. His ony mistake, and it is a huge one, has been a complacency about us staying up. He needed to get mathematically clear of relegation before his revolution. For these two games, he has to know what his best team is and I don't think he does.

Captain Trips
13-05-2014, 10:55 AM
That isn't his only mistake. Did he not "roast" some players as you say but then subsequently then need to play some of them?

Not great man management but perhaps excusable for rookie not though for Butcher. One win in 3 months isn't down to complacency if this was case the complacency would have been early doors when he arrived. The last 2 months if he didn't realise we were in trouble then that is beyond scary. The last 10/15 games have been anything but complacent more bad players badly managed.

The_Todd
13-05-2014, 10:57 AM
I don't think hopping is going to solve anything.

Keith_M
13-05-2014, 11:04 AM
Is anyone else getting a sense of deja-vu reading this thread?


:greengrin

roryg
13-05-2014, 11:31 AM
McGivern will b a good player when my arse starts pointing up the way.

roryg
13-05-2014, 11:32 AM
I agree, give Butcher more time and some cash to spend.

JimBHibees
13-05-2014, 11:36 AM
Up or down butcher and his team should stay.

Completely agree.

JimBHibees
13-05-2014, 11:42 AM
Butchers made a lot of mistakes between alienating a lot of his squad, snap judgments on people but the biggest of them all was his total failure in the january transfer window. There was a budget there and he didn't maximise it or bring in better players. If his view is that the squad is that bad a man in his position should have brought in better IMO. Granted January is more difficult than the summer however you get 2 transfer windows a season and he failed badly.

I would assume that he thought we would be ok and that he was keeping the bulk of the budget back for the summer to then significantly change the squad.

Onion
13-05-2014, 11:53 AM
Fenlon had to go, simple as that. His team was a bombscare and played anti-football so let's not get all misty eyed about a man who delivered some of the worst results in the club's 140 years and was taking us nowhere but downwards.

Most of us though Butcher was the right appointment. We wanted a hard man who would kick ass and organise Fenlon's Follies. We got that. We all said that Butcher also needed time to clear out the dross and rebuild the team.

In theory, nothing wrong with either of these. The biggest problem is that no one allowed for just how crap, soft and pathetic Fenlon's Follies were. If Butcher had really known how bad they were, he would have pushed much harder in Jan to get a couple of decent players in. He didn't. He also misjudged the players reaction to a bit of manly berating. Most of these guys are pussies! No drive, no ambition, no sense of pride, no professionalism. They are not great players, but their level of performance has been woeful and reflects their pussy mentality. Yes, we can blame Butcher. But the players are mainly to blame.

Butcher might turn out to be a great Hibs manager yet, and we were all happy to give him time. But no one said relegation was in the script ! I'm sure it would not even have been mentioned when TB was interviewed for the job. So, Butcher and Petrie need to accept that the game had changed and that they have ****ed things up badly. That's not our fault and the fans have nothing to be sorry about when we all wanted Fenlon out and Butcher in.

21.05.2016
13-05-2014, 03:46 PM
I think all this 'butcher must go' 'fenlon was great' 'fenlon was *****' stuff misses the point. I think everyone seemed to get it when Butcher was appointed, there were comments like 'he must be given a decent time to get it right' ' the problems at this club go far deeper than the manager'.

The fact is we have now, if we include TB, had at least 5 failed managers - and most of those had pretty good records before they came to us. That fact alone points to it being rather simplistic and short termist to simply keep on sacking managers - it can only perpetuate the round of failed managers. We need to work on building a solid club and team.

Everyone knew this was a long term project, but the pain and frustration of the last few seasons has, I think, led us all to look at the most obvious without really doing the analysis.

Petrie has said there are big changes coming to the club, Leanne Dempster being the first, I would have thought we should wait and see what that brings because maybe that is the start of the right action being taken.

Give him time and he'll get it right.

Totally agree. We are in too bad a state to be fixed over night. I understand the frustration and after so much ***** over the years its also understandable that we are getting impatient but we need to give it time.

Paisley Hibby
13-05-2014, 06:06 PM
I don't understand the point in comparing Ronaldo and Messi and to those that are underperforming at ER. What I see is a team that were average having been mismanaged and are now in a relegation play off having taken 8 out of 57 points.

What is a more realistic comparison is maybe Tony Pulis and Palace, he didn't take much but took a team that was struggling and really turned them round. Without a summer transfer window. Gus Poyet has done similar at Sunderland. Butcher has done the opposite, in fact quite similar to Hughes at ICT the team is performing worse. Now however it has come about, whether he has told players to leave, whether they don't like the methods employed by him and Malpas or whether the players can't adapt to his tactics.

It IS this one man that is the catalyst for how things are at ER just now, if we were doing well would he be getting the credit, was he getting credit after we beat Hearts at new year?

I've never once defended the players, I think we should keep a few but very little. I don't think performances have been anywhere near acceptable. But I'm not on a witch hunt, I'm just simply agreeing with those that think where we are is unacceptable.

A managers job is to set expectations and make those that don't achieve them accountable. To suggest that a manager isn't responsible for keeping players professional is flawed not the other way round. He is there to manage them of course he is responsible. Look at Celtic with Griffiths and Stokes in the last couple of weeks, they both needed managed.

I'm not hounding him out the door, I just don't feel comfortable based on what I've seen over the last 7 months that he is the man for the job. If he stays I hope i'm wrong.

Good post. Let's just say that if my mortgage depended on it there's no way I'd back Butcher to get a win in the next two games. Our only hope is two nil nil draws and winning on penalties. I'd be happy to see him binned now but realise that ain't going to happen.

Russ
13-05-2014, 07:21 PM
I think all this 'butcher must go' 'fenlon was great' 'fenlon was *****' stuff misses the point. I think everyone seemed to get it when Butcher was appointed, there were comments like 'he must be given a decent time to get it right' ' the problems at this club go far deeper than the manager'.

The fact is we have now, if we include TB, had at least 5 failed managers - and most of those had pretty good records before they came to us. That fact alone points to it being rather simplistic and short termist to simply keep on sacking managers - it can only perpetuate the round of failed managers. We need to work on building a solid club and team.

Everyone knew this was a long term project, but the pain and frustration of the last few seasons has, I think, led us all to look at the most obvious without really doing the analysis.

Petrie has said there are big changes coming to the club, Leanne Dempster being the first, I would have thought we should wait and see what that brings because maybe that is the start of the right action being taken.

Give him time and he'll get it right.

Expertly put, I concur sir.