Butcher... Yes or no

[crieffhibee]

As it says on the tin,

Butcher more time?... Or the boot?

[Centre Hawf]

Bring forth the boot.

[Diclonius]

More time. I genuinely believe he can turn this round, whatever division we end up in.

[ALF TUPPER]

More time

[Gatecrasher]

More time. I genuinely believe he can turn this round, whatever division we end up in.
I agree.

[hibIBZ]

Relegated = boot
Survive= more time

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes, asking him to fix this team is like asking a joiner to build a roof using a plumber's toolbox.

Also he needs time to establish he's the boss. Our players are so ****ing sure that they run the joint that our managers position has become a laughing stock. If he goes the rot continues.

[Onion]

The guy's underperformance has exceeded all expectations. Only fitting that first thing Leanne does is boot out Petrie, Butcher and his team. Bring in her own man and let's put this sorry chapter behind us.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

Relegated = boot
Survive= more time

This.

[eggbamyasi]

More time defo

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Michael]

While I do support Butcher, it's his fault we are in this mess. This may not be the greatest Hibs team, but these players should be nowhere near the playoffs. If Pat was manager I think we'd have finished 7th comfortably.

[muzzhfc]

time

[yeezus.]

If we are relegated he has to go, if not let him bring in a few new signings in the summer and let's see how we do next season...

[Dobosz83]

More time.

[jakeshibs]

more time
constant changing managers is not helping.

[stevejordan]

if we lose v Killie then it is clear this Management Team are not up to the task we would have 10 days to re group get rid of them and get someone in who can lift this group of players to win the play off games.

If we beat Killie they stay.

[chrisski33]

More time but i think he made a mistake saying thay some of.the squad werent up to it earlier in.season. Personally think relegation will be a.bad thing and.will.be.harder for us to return

[GREEN WARLORD]

Nae greetin match fi me.

More time required.

[erin go bragh]

More time . But im not sure how much more . We have went from being a boring hard to beat team to a boring easy to beat team .beat Killie and its a massive rebuild in the summer . Lose to Killie and we will be up against a team thats full of confidence . Sad state of affairs . Us the fans really need to pack out ER on sat and some how drag these players over the line .

Ggtth

[blackpoolhibs]

Yes, asking him to fix this team is like asking a joiner to build a roof using a plumber's toolbox.

Also he needs time to establish he's the boss. Our players are so ****ing sure that they run the joint that our managers position has become a laughing stock. If he goes the rot continues.

He's put his biggest lump hammer through the roof every week since arriving, when to get us safely to the end of the season all he needed was a few slates.

[Weststandwanab]

Yes

[brian6-2]

Relegated = boot
Survive= more time

This.

[Captain Trips]

more time
constant changing managers is not helping.

We do not "constantly" change managers the last one got 18 months so got a fair crack. We cannot keep managers either that have offered nothing in 7 months. He has put us in relegation not Fenlon or Fenlons players they are and have been his for 7 months. If he cannot even muster up 5 or 6 pts by now against teams also struggling then he isn't fit for purpose.

He is making Calderwood look like Mourhino and that is some doing.

[heretoday]

When Terry took over we were all delighted at the contrast between him and the quiet man Fenlon. Even working largely with PFs squad we could have at least expected his personality to galvanise the guys to achieve a mid table place. Now however he looks like a broken man and I for one would rather we bit the bullet and got yet another boss now. I would not back him to motivate even his own squad, especially given that a sizeable number of the current numpties will still be around.

[oldbiker]

Relegated = boot
Survive= more time

This does it for me, would sooner he had more time and we stay up,

we need another manager merry go round like a hole in the heed

[J-C]

We do not "constantly" change managers the last one got 18 months so got a fair crack. We cannot keep managers either that have offered nothing in 7 months. He has put us in relegation not Fenlon or Fenlons players they are and have been his for 7 months. If he cannot even muster up 5 or 6 pts by now against teams also struggling then he isn't fit for purpose.

He is making Calderwood look like Mourhino and that is some doing.

:top marks:agree:

[iwasthere1972]

More time definitely. Only been in the job six months with only the January window to bring in players who admittedly are crap.

Next season will be the time to judge how good or bad he is.

[Keith_M]

I'm going to go by our recent history of giving managers the boot and question whether we would get someone in that will do any better.


Now, I realise he's made a total *rse of managing somebody else's team but, IMHO, we'll see Butcher's team next season after wholesale changes in the summer. I don't think there's any point going looking for yet another manager next season, no matter which division we're in. Past experience suggests that as a totally fruitless exercise.

[MoscowHibs]

He has got to stay. If anything, the club needs stability, and punting the manager every other season is no bloody use. We as fans clearly see there are a few players who are nae up to it, and TB has said as much. I still think we will stay up, and then let the clear out begin. Come Christmas time, if we are still in the same boat, then clearly TB, with his own players on board, is no use, so punt him then, however, my opinion is that our problems lie not with the management, but with the board. Lets punt them.

[KeithTheHibby]

Yes.

He is partly responsible for getting us into this mess, he can sort it.

It would also cost a bomb to empty him and if relegated we wouldn't have the cash.

Either way he needs to empty most of the squad and bring in his own players. I can only hope for everyone's sake it is in the premiership.

[DarrenSQH]

If we finish 11th he should walk.

If we finish safe he can stay.

But personally think he hasent a clue.

[stevejordan]

He's put his biggest lump hammer through the roof every week since arriving, when to get us safely to the end of the season all he needed was a few slates.

The other problem is if we do get rid of them we cant have Petrie any where near the decision as to who replaces them if we can scrape over the line this weekend then we have time to sort this out in the close season

[Gettin' Auld]

If we stay up, i'd like him to get more time to see what he's capable of at the start of next season. If we get relegated though, that's a different matter.

For a team like Hibs, unless he came in late (McLeish) and could do little to avoid the plunge, relegation should mean that the manager gets jottered. No 'if's or but's', that's a sacking offence.

OK, most the players are piss awful, but that shouldn't have prevented him arranging what he had to make us hard to beat......Pack the defence, grind out a couple of 0:0 draws and we wouldn't be in this friggin situation. That shouldn't be rocket science to an experienced manager like Butcher.

OH **** it......I'm confuddling myself now.

[Waxy]

Time

[yekimevol]

While I do support Butcher, it's his fault we are in this mess. This may not be the greatest Hibs team, but these players should be nowhere near the playoffs. If Pat was manager I think we'd have finished 7th comfortably.


Totally agree with this, terry lost to many players when he told them to bolt in january and i think the transfer window would have been better as well, Might have sneeked top 6 as well.

[gorgie greens]

Would like him to stay on but if we end up going down there will be so many knives out for him that he will be gone one way or another

[GreenLake]

More time. I genuinely believe he can turn this round, whatever division we end up in.

:top marks

[Alfred E Newman]

Survive or not, the boot. Hopeless manager, ignorant assistant and a dreadful style of football.

[GreenLake]

Totally agree with this, terry lost to many players when he told them to bolt in january and i think the transfer window would have been better as well, Might have sneeked top 6 as well.

Butcher stays. End of. :cb

I think his over brutal tactics backfired on him and now he is trying to coddle the players a bit just to survive. If he does survive the coddling can stop and he should decimate the squad. Empty existing players and bring in like for like without worrying if they are more quality - just purge the mentality. The squad players whose confidence has been shaken are going to be happier in a warmer and more pleasant training environment and I hope they find one next season. Keep the few good prospects and KT and Robertson. We can aim for top six or a championship win. KT should be kept because if Butcher does blunder next season, KT should become the next player manager.

[Onion]

Of the two, I'd get shot of Petrie first. Give LD time to assess and work with Butcher and go with her decision. If he drags us down to lower div, I don't care of he stays or goes as we're screwed. We need a completely new approach at Hibs as the current model is busted.

[TornadoHibby]

Butcher stays. End of. :cb

I think his over brutal tactics backfired on him and now he is trying to coddle the players a bit just to survive. If he does survive the coddling can stop and he should decimate the squad. Empty existing players and bring in like for like without worrying if they are more quality - just purge the mentality. The squad players whose confidence has been shaken are going to be happier in a warmer and more pleasant training environment and I hope they find one next season. Keep the few good prospects and KT and Robertson. We can aim for top six or a championship win. KT should be kept because if Butcher does blunder next season, KT should become the next player manager.

Not sure if I get this "purge the mentality" concept" UNLESS........there is/are still someone/people within the Club, who are adversely influencing the minds of players with each and every (almost annual) influx of newbies, STILL WITHIN THE CLUB from, presumably some distant date from the past? :confused:

That is the only way that this old chestnut continues to trundle along with support from some on here to excuse the shortfalls of succeeding managers who are just not delivering what they were employed to do which is, according to RP fairly regularly, get Hibs playing to a top 6 and challenging for honours (Cups and European places) standard every season. :hmmm: :dunno:

Assuming that the contents of the post to which I am replying have any substance, then it is not the players who need to be removed from the environment at the Club immediately but those outwith the playing staff who are adversely influencing them to perform way below their capabilities on a regular basis such that the team consistently fails! :rolleyes:

I feel I am missing the point though! Can anyone help please? :hmmm: :dunno:

[Northern Hibby]

The guy's underperformance has exceeded all expectations. Only fitting that first thing Leanne does is boot out Petrie, Butcher and his team. Bring in her own man and let's put this sorry chapter behind us.

I'm sure Butcher Is saying "The guys underperformance has exceeded all my expectations, I thought we had enough talent to see us through to the end of the season, never when I took the job (from a side we'd taken to 2nd top) did I think we'd be in this position"


P.S.
He stays and if we go down does what Alex McLeish did

[Keith_M]

Not sure if I get this "purge the mentality" concept" UNLESS........there is/are still someone/people within the Club, who are adversely influencing the minds of players with each and every (almost annual) influx of newbies, STILL WITHIN THE CLUB from, presumably some distant date from the past? :confused:

........

I feel I am missing the point though! Can anyone help please? :hmmm: :dunno:


I keep hearing the same thing from certain posters and I've asked them to explain who it is and what exactly they're doing. It surely can't be the players, as we've gone through about 100 of them since the Collins revolt seven years ago.

I've yet to have an adequate response so I'd be interested in this as well.

[GreenLake]

Not sure if I get this "purge the mentality" concept" UNLESS........there is/are still someone/people within the Club, who are adversely influencing the minds of players with each and every (almost annual) influx of newbies, STILL WITHIN THE CLUB from, presumably some distant date from the past? :confused:

That is the only way that this old chestnut continues to trundle along with support from some on here to excuse the shortfalls of succeeding managers who are just not delivering what they were employed to do which is, according to RP fairly regularly, get Hibs playing to a top 6 and challenging for honours (Cups and European places) standard every season. :hmmm: :dunno:

Assuming that the contents of the post to which I am replying have any substance, then it is not the players who need to be removed from the environment at the Club immediately but those outwith the playing staff who are adversely influencing them to perform way below their capabilities on a regular basis such that the team consistently fails! :rolleyes:

I feel I am missing the point though! Can anyone help please? :hmmm: :dunno:

I think you are trying to say it is the mentality of TB and MM and Petrie, the admin staff and the tea lady which is causing the players to underperform. I think you are wagging the dog by the tail.

I think it is the mentality of some of the players that have given management difficulty from a number of years back and no manager has been able to reverse it. Players that join are quickly steeped in the same culture - (see Exhibit A Players whine to Petrie about JC, see Exhibit B, 1.5 cup final preparation, see Exhibit C players complaining about Malpas new training). It's not just the players though and I think management and managers have failed to solve this player control issue in the right way and have caused some of it. We have to move on and bury it. I think TB can do that but it won't be easy.

[sadtom]

The fact that its even being debated shows that as a club we are petrified (or should that be Petrie - fied) to take decisive action. We dont want to enter the managerial roundabout again and we dont want to look so stupid that we have appointed yet another dud that we will give them more time than they should be given. This has incrementally increased under CC, PF now TB.
Sick of this guff about not his own players. Good coaches can still motivate, organise get tactics right and produce a performance.
Its his job to make the total value greater than the sum of the parts. He is making it even less!
1 win in 18!!! 1pt in 24!!! Why are we even taking about it! You could grab someone off the street and achieve better.
As much as i was content with the appointment and was optimistic that he'd shake things up and get us going.
Its so clear that a blind man, in a fog, wi a bag over his napper can see that he just isn't good enough.

Has to go before we drop even further. It's a no brainer.

[TornadoHibby]

Not sure if I get this "purge the mentality" concept" UNLESS........there is/are still someone/people within the Club, who are adversely influencing the minds of players with each and every (almost annual) influx of newbies, STILL WITHIN THE CLUB from, presumably some distant date from the past? :confused:

That is the only way that this old chestnut continues to trundle along with support from some on here to excuse the shortfalls of succeeding managers who are just not delivering what they were employed to do which is, according to RP fairly regularly, get Hibs playing to a top 6 and challenging for honours (Cups and European places) standard every season. :hmmm: :dunno:

Assuming that the contents of the post to which I am replying have any substance, then it is not the players who need to be removed from the environment at the Club immediately but those outwith the playing staff who are adversely influencing them to perform way below their capabilities on a regular basis such that the team consistently fails! :rolleyes:

I feel I am missing the point though! Can anyone help please? :hmmm: :dunno:


I think you are trying to say it is the mentality of TB and MM and Petrie, the admin staff and the tea lady which is causing the players to underperform. I think you are wagging the dog by the tail.
I think it is the mentality of some of the players that have given management difficulty from a number of years back and no manager has been able to reverse it. Players that join are quickly steeped in the same culture - (see Exhibit A Players whine to Petrie about JC, see Exhibit B, 1.5 cup final preparation, see Exhibit C players complaining about Malpas new training). It's not just the players though and I think management and managers have failed to solve this player control issue in the right way and have caused some of it. We have to move on and bury it. I think TB can do that but it won't be easy.

I think you should stop putting words in my mouth please as if I had said (posted) them! :agree:

I said no such thing but what I did say is the bit I have highlighted in red for you to read this time if you don't mind!

You made the suggestion that it was necessary to "purge the mentality" and the only way that would need to be done, bearing in mind that few players last more than a year or two and none have been there since the 2007 "player revolt" and by that I mean consistently. In other words, if it's not being orchestrated by player(s), someone else (perhaps more than a single person) with access to players on a very close personal basis must be responsible. :rolleyes:

How else do you account for it bearing in mind the regularly revolving door for players at ER as management changes mean new manager(s) want to pick their own players as soon as they possibly can? :dunno: :hmmm:

[chrisski33]

Butcher stays. End of. :cb

I think his over brutal tactics backfired on him and now he is trying to coddle the players a bit just to survive. If he does survive the coddling can stop and he should decimate the squad. Empty existing players and bring in like for like without worrying if they are more quality - just purge the mentality. The squad players whose confidence has been shaken are going to be happier in a warmer and more pleasant training environment and I hope they find one next season. Keep the few good prospects and KT and Robertson. We can aim for top six or a championship win. KT should be kept because if Butcher does blunder next season, KT should become the next player manager.

Kt as player manager i think not! Id rather see us get Ian murray if we r relegated

[GreenLake]

I think you should stop putting words in my mouth please as if I had said (posted) them! :agree:

I said no such thing but what I did say is the bit I have highlighted in red for you to read this time if you don't mind!

You made the suggestion that it was necessary to "purge the mentality" and the only way that would need to be done, bearing in mind that few players last more than a year or two and none have been there since the 2007 "player revolt" and by that I mean consistently. In other words, if it's not being orchestrated by player(s), someone else (perhaps more than a single person) with access to players on a very close personal basis must be responsible. :rolleyes:

How else do you account for it bearing in mind the regularly revolving door for players at ER as management changes mean new manager(s) want to pick their own players as soon as they possibly can? :dunno: :hmmm:

Are you hinting that it's Petrie? :greengrin

[hibeesjoe]

Definetly give Butcher more time. I'm still hopeful he will turn it round. Only thing is though, I think if we do somehow manage to get relegated then there won't be anywhere near as much change to the squad as we would like too think and if we are stuck with the majority of the same players will Butcher be able to do anything with them.

[Nutmegged]

This is a toughie for me, I've never been a Terry Butcher fan, I've never rated him BUT he has proven he can be successful over a decent period in the League we compete in with a team with miniscule resources compared to ours, he also hasn't had the opportunity to empty the majority of playerss he doesn't fancy and get his own in during a Summer transfer window.

We also hear stories like the club refusing to shell out slightly extra wages on guys like Adam Rooney who was a proven goalscorer in the SPL and went to Aberdeen and picked up were he left off at ICT

With that in mind you'd have to say Yes we should keep him

On the otherhand, while I don't rate the squad too highly, I do think its a squad capable of finishing in the top 6, thats not good enough though, not with the state of Hearts and the demise of Rangers, top 4 should be the minimum requirements for what we pay and the amount of fans we have the potential to generate. 1 win in 18 games is an absolute scandal, the tactics are atrocious, the style of play is desperate at times and the players look like they chucked it in months ago, we don't look like a team who knows what its doing or knows what it wants to do.

so with all that in mind you'd say have to say No he shouldn't stay.

I think with recruitment of Leeann Dempster we could be moving in the right direction off the park, we may need to cut costs in certain areas of the squad to allow us to sign better quality players in other areas of the squad, as much as I don't personally like Butcher, I think he's should be allowed an opportunity to build a squad that is better than what we have, I think Dempster's job will be to give us quality over quantity and if that happens and we still don't show major signs of improvement then and only then can we say for certain that Terry Butcher simply isn't good enough.

[TornadoHibby]

Are you hinting that it's Petrie? :greengrin

Not at all! Simply trying to see if you can disclose the substance to your assertion that this was all the result of some mysterious skullduggery from "someone/persons on the inside" who was/were probably not on the playing staff! :agree:

However, your persistance to reply to a question with questions suggests that there is no substance to your original assertion rather it is possibly the figment of a fertile imagination, possibly even your own! :greengrin

[dutchhibby]

hes lost the dressing room so GTF terry

[Pete]

Vote yes. We're better together!

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

He's made a Noel Hunt of things, however he has to stay. We can't continue this cycle of new managers. Can we not see from other clubs, it does not work!

[Nutmegged]

hes lost the dressing room so GTF terry

Do you really believe this? Its something ive heard quite a lot but then you look at Kevin Thomson's performance in the last match and you just can't buy it, Thomson is about as Mr Hibs as you'll get within that squad, he is a leader both on and off the field, so with that in mind I just can't buy the whole "he's lost the dressing room" stuff when KT plays like a man possessed.

[Pete]

Do you really believe this? Its something ive heard quite a lot but then you look at Kevin Thomson's performance in the last match and you just can't buy it, Thomson is about as Mr Hibs as you'll get within that squad, he is a leader both on and off the field, so with that in mind I just can't buy the whole "he's lost the dressing room" stuff when KT plays like a man possessed.

I think he did sort of lose it but he's got it back. As you say, there have been some good individual performances recently and we are definitely trying.

[bigwheel]

hes lost the dressing room so GTF terry

This "lost the dressing room nonsense ". I'm sure there are a number of players who don't fancy him , frankly most of the supporters too - but if we can get out of this mess without relegation , then I'm sure he will sign his own players and as he did at ICT "have the dressing room ". Winning games will make that happen more easily than any other way ...

[The_Horde]

Definetly give Butcher more time. I'm still hopeful he will turn it round. Only thing is though, I think if we do somehow manage to get relegated then there won't be anywhere near as much change to the squad as we would like too think and if we are stuck with the majority of the same players will Butcher be able to do anything with them.

I don't think we need too much of a change. The fringe players need to go. The defence and goalkeeper need a bit of an overhaul and we need some creativity but I think mainly what this team needs is a confidence transplant. One or two good, positive signings and a few solid players could see us competing for top 6 next season and be a good basis to improve the season after.

We need to stay in the league though and my pants have been brown since Tuesday night.

[dutchhibby]

Do you really believe this? Its something ive heard quite a lot but then you look at Kevin Thomson's performance in the last match and you just can't buy it, Thomson is about as Mr Hibs as you'll get within that squad, he is a leader both on and off the field, so with that in mind I just can't buy the whole "he's lost the dressing room" stuff when KT plays like a man possessed.


KT is a true hibs man
and your right hes playing like a man possessed as he knows his team mates have lost respect for their manager
so he feels he has to try fire players up for matches and put on a show as to how it should be done


Terry should go with his cheeky arrogant assistant Malpas asap imo

[marinello59]

KT is a true hibs man
and your right hes playing like a man possessed as he knows his team mates have lost respect for their manager
so he feels he has to try fire players up for matches and put on a show as to how it should be done


Terry should go with his cheeky arrogant assistant Malpas asap imo

Did KT tell you this or have you simply made it up?

[hibsbollah]

More time.

[GreenLake]

Not at all! Simply trying to see if you can disclose the substance to your assertion that this was all the result of some mysterious skullduggery from "someone/persons on the inside" who was/were probably not on the playing staff! :agree:

However, your persistance to reply to a question with questions suggests that there is no substance to your original assertion rather it is possibly the figment of a fertile imagination, possibly even your own! :greengrin

I though what I said was very clear but it wouldn't be the first time if I'm the only one to think that! I have yet to discover what you are getting at too it seems. :greengrin

I would be agree to get rid of Butcher too, if every player was sold, Petrie left, Farmer sold the club to the Sultan of Brunei, and the tea making is contracted out to Tetley, but just not doing this same old thing over and over and over like Groundhog day. Change, change, change! :greengrin

[GreenLake]

hes lost the dressing room so GTF terry

I hope they can't find it again so we can get a new dressing room in. :thumbsup:

[southsider]

Before the bottom six fixtures i thought he should get 2 years. Now i think he should get more time - 3 years.......... in Saughton Prison.

[The_Exile]

Whatever is best for Hibs, so given a chance to bring his own style of player will probably be the best way to go, he was the popular choice amongst the fans so we need to back him. I might have a different answer on Saturday night.

[emerald green]

Why has every managerial appointment at Hibs over the last 6/7 years or so only succeeded in turning the club into regular relegation strugglers? If TB is sacked, who is to say the same thing will not happen with the next manager? It will get to the stage nobody any good will want to take up a job which is rapidly being known as a poisoned chalice. Butcher has succeeded in making a bad team worse and it's impossible to make a case for him staying if we go down, but this club badly needs some stability and has to get off this constant managerial merry-go-round.

[GreenLake]

Before the bottom six fixtures i thought he should get 2 years. Now i think he should get more time - 3 years.......... in Saughton Prison.
:tee hee:

[Saorsa]

I'd like tae see what happens when he gets his ain players, if he's allowed tae get the players he wants, that is. Is changing managers again really going tae help, this mess was made long before he arrived and by somebody else.

[pacorosssco]

As it says on the tin,

Butcher more time?... Or the boot?

Lose satc.boot .alex mcleish for playooff

[TornadoHibby]

I though what I said was very clear but it wouldn't be the first time if I'm the only one to think that! I have yet to discover what you are getting at too it seems. :greengrin

I would be agree to get rid of Butcher too, if every player was sold, Petrie left, Farmer sold the club to the Sultan of Brunei, and the tea making is contracted out to Tetley, but just not doing this same old thing over and over and over like Groundhog day. Change, change, change! :greengrin

I have no idea what you are on about and clearly there is no chance that you are actually going to nail down that "implication" you made that there is a "mole" inside ER and EM who is causing all the bother! :rolleyes:

Disappointing that you are unable to see the very point that you focused the initial post of yours that I first replied to on but hey, not the first time that someone has changed the subject or attempted to turn the tables when "stuck in a corner" seems to be a place that you would rather not be. :hmmm:

I'm done on this stuff now - disappointing though as I thought by the nature of your post that you might have been onto something which you were keen to share with others. :agree:

Obviously not!

Enjoy the game on Saturday! :greengrin

[semaj64]

More time we need stability, all this churning has not done us any favours so far

[Sir David Gray]

Sacking Butcher now will achieve nothing and could quite possibly even set us back.

This club needs stability in the dugout and we can't afford to sack him after just six months.

Our record since January has been disgraceful and it's difficult to defend Butcher's role in that run but if we get rid of him then we'll just be in for another period of transition, which is exactly what we don't need.

What we do need is further change at boardroom level. This club is going nowhere under its current leadership and although Leeann Dempster is arriving in a few weeks, I'm not convinced that it goes far enough.

[greenlex]

Yes

[matty_f]

More time regardless of relegation.

[Peevemor]

More time regardless of relegation.

:agree:

[hunter1875]

more time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GreenLake]

I have no idea what you are on about and clearly there is no chance that you are actually going to nail down that "implication" you made that there is a "mole" inside ER and EM who is causing all the bother! :rolleyes:

Disappointing that you are unable to see the very point that you focused the initial post of yours that I first replied to on but hey, not the first time that someone has changed the subject or attempted to turn the tables when "stuck in a corner" seems to be a place that you would rather not be. :hmmm:

I'm done on this stuff now - disappointing though as I thought by the nature of your post that you might have been onto something which you were keen to share with others. :agree:

Obviously not!

Enjoy the game on Saturday! :greengrin

What "mole", "strange mystery" are you on about and why would I hide in a corner? :faf:

Your reply on the initial post was bizarre to say the least. I have not got a clue what you were trying to say and repeatedly said so.

You seem to find the concept of "purge the mentality" not agreeable and have turned it into an imbroglio. You can just say you think the mentality is fine if you want.

You too enjoy the game.:thumbsup:

[TornadoHibby]

What "mole", "strange mystery" are you on about and why would I hide in a corner? :faf:

Your reply on the initial post was bizarre to say the least. I have not got a clue what you were trying to say and repeatedly said so.

You seem to find the concept of "purge the mentality" not agreeable and have turned it into an imbroglio. You can just say you think the mentality is fine if you want.

You too enjoy the game.:thumbsup:

I just love when folk start that "daft laddie" act after they set a hare running and forget how or why they had done that!

:faf::faf::faf::faf::faf:

Hilarious stuff, much better than the stuff you posted!

What did you mean by "purge the mentality" and who was it that you thought was responsible for allowing "the mentality", odious as you implied that it was, to arise then subsist causing our beloved club to lose virtually every match for many weeks because "persons unknown" within the club wanted and, indeed, caused that to happen!? :wink:

I think that was something similar to what you were alluding to originally big guy! :greengrin

[IberianHibernian]

If we`re relegated I suppose he`ll resign as I doubt he`ll fancy second level and must have some personal pride ( ? ) . If we stay up whether on Saturday or in play off , a hard decisión for the board and easy thing would be to do nothing and hope people forget last 5 months . If a change is to be made it should be after Saturday / play off , not in November . Plenty of time to do what we should have done in October - interview lots of candidates ( lots of managers around Europe will be available in summer ) and make a fresh start . The right appointment will boost crowds and club in general whatever league we`re in .

[GreenLake]

I just love when folk start that "daft laddie" act after they set a hare running and forget how or why they had done that!

:faf::faf::faf::faf::faf:

Hilarious stuff, much better than the stuff you posted!

What did you mean by "purge the mentality" and who was it that you thought was responsible for allowing "the mentality", odious as you implied that it was, to arise then subsist causing our beloved club to lose virtually every match for many weeks because "persons unknown" within the club wanted and, indeed, caused that to happen!? :wink:

I think that was something similar to what you were alluding to originally big guy! :greengrin

Perhaps I was being a little generous.:greengrin

Let me point out again the main substance:

Exhibit A Players whine to Petrie about John Collins
Exhibit B The Cup Final preparation
Exhibit C Players complain about Malpas

These years apart incidents have been discussed on here and I don't care who how this mentality carries on through the years. I care that it is still happening and likely to happen again.

You created a hunt for a "mole" or a "mysterious skullduggery" or some "persons unknown" hiding in corners who must to be responsible for this. You proposed these theories, not me. You mentioned these terms not me and you have yet to acknowledge Exhibits A,B or C. I don't give a rats bottom who opens their trap or who lets it travel down the years, or whether it does travel down the years. It happens repeatedly so something is persistent and pervasive. Call it mentality or sense of humor, or whatever you like, but whatever it is it disturbs team performance. Make it clear there is a zero tolerance policy that players of less quality than Wayne Rooney, Carlos Tevez or George Best have to do what the coaches tell them while playing for Hibs. What is mysterious about that? If management are not willing or capable of doing this enforcing then they should leave.

The Exhibits are there and so is the mentality that allowed them. There are plenty of clubs who don't suffer from this and we should become one of them. It's time for Hibs, who pay the wages, to stop hiding in the corner, not me.:greengrin

[TornadoHibby]

Perhaps I was being a little generous.:greengrin

Let me point out again the main substance:

Exhibit A Players whine to Petrie about John Collins
Exhibit B The Cup Final preparation
Exhibit C Players complain about Malpas

These years apart incidents have been discussed on here and I don't care who how this mentality carries on through the years. I care that it is still happening and likely to happen again.

You created a hunt for a "mole" or a "mysterious skullduggery" or some "persons unknown" hiding in corners who must to be responsible for this. You proposed these theories, not me. You mentioned these terms not me and you have yet to acknowledge Exhibits A,B or C. I don't give a rats bottom who opens their trap or who lets it travel down the years, or whether it does travel down the years. It happens repeatedly so something is persistent and pervasive. Call it mentality or sense of humor, or whatever you like, but whatever it is it disturbs team performance. Make it clear there is a zero tolerance policy that players of less quality than Wayne Rooney, Carlos Tevez or George Best have to do what the coaches tell them while playing for Hibs. What is mysterious about that? If management are not willing or capable of doing this enforcing then they should leave.

The Exhibits are there and so is the mentality that allowed them. There are plenty of clubs who don't suffer from this and we should become one of them. It's time for Hibs, who pay the wages, to stop hiding in the corner, not me.:greengrin

Now it seems that all that stuff you've just reeled off again is in a form that you think is joined up and makes sense!

It doesn't I'm afraid!

Three "incidents" entirely unconnected by players employed by or contracted to Hibs having been present at or involved in more than one of the said "incidents"!

How can three, unconnected by playing staff, events exhibit something that is pervasive and related to the playing staff when no playing staff have been involved in more than one of the said "incidents"?

And........if no playing staff are involved in whatever is pervasive, who actually is?

You see, what you did was pose some questions based on trying to link unconnected events (in terms of playing staff, the very group you seemed to be gunning for ) and then suggesting that something pervasive existed and was the root cause of the run of poor infield performances by Hibs over a prolonged period of time!

So, if its not the players causing the problems, who is it the needs to be outed and removed from the position they have which enables them to cause such havoc in terms of match results and emotional upset for many loyal fans as a result?

No more questions now please!

Let's be havin' you with the answers to this "secret" that you originally alluded to having knowledge of yet now are "muddying the waters" and trying to "throw us off the scent"!

No more crisp and time wasting questions now, only answers will be respected!

:faf: :faf: :faf: :faf:

[GreenLake]

Now it seems that all that stuff you've just reeled off again is in a form that you think is joined up and makes sense!

It doesn't I'm afraid!

Three "incidents" entirely unconnected by players employed by or contracted to Hibs having been present at or involved in more than one of the said "incidents"!

How can three, unconnected by playing staff, events exhibit something that is pervasive and related to the playing staff when no playing staff have been involved in more than one of the said "incidents"?

And........if no playing staff are involved in whatever is pervasive, who actually is?

You see, what you did was pose some questions based on trying to link unconnected events (in terms of playing staff, the very group you seemed to be gunning for ) and then suggesting that something pervasive existed and was the root cause of the run of poor infield performances by Hibs over a prolonged period of time!

So, if its not the players causing the problems, who is it the needs to be outed and removed from the position they have which enables them to cause such havoc in terms of match results and emotional upset for many loyal fans as a result?

No more questions now please!

Let's be havin' you with the answers to this "secret" that you originally alluded to having knowledge of yet now are "muddying the waters" and trying to "throw us off the scent"!

No more crisp and time wasting questions now, only answers will be respected!

:faf: :faf: :faf: :faf:

I am not a player, a player relative, a publicist and agent or a friend of a player and my views are entirely my own. :greengrin

I told you what I think. You can complicate yourself in knots all day while I rest my case. You have said nothing yet but clearly you have some intent hiding somewhere which I doubt we will ever see. The corner hider is you my friend.:greengrin

[TornadoHibby]

I am not a player, a player relative, a publicist and agent or a friend of a player and my views are entirely my own. :greengrin

I told you what I think. You can complicate yourself in knots all day while I rest my case. You have said nothing yet but clearly you have some intent hiding somewhere which I doubt we will ever see. The corner hider is you my friend.:greengrin

Sometimes I am disappointed when someone suggests that they know something almost "material" about something which baffles many and yet, when the surface gets scratched, it turns out that it's just some more hot air!

I will of course overcome my disappointment that the stuff you posted about the pervasive "problem" behind our longish period of failing to achieve our team potential seems to be more "hot air" than anything substantial!

I just don't get why anyone would raise such a matter as a "hunch" when they know that it is a subject that might be of interest as a "reason why" the underachievement on the pitch has arisen.

Critics like you are aplenty as it is easy to find fault and never letting the truth get in the way of a "good story" often helps that along!

Take it easy! :wink:

[HKhibby]

More time . But im not sure how much more . We have went from being a boring hard to beat team to a boring easy to beat team .beat Killie and its a massive rebuild in the summer . Lose to Killie and we will be up against a team thats full of confidence . Sad state of affairs . Us the fans really need to pack out ER on sat and some how drag these players over the line .

Ggtth

i agree with this, although how much more time i do not really know, one main problem with getting rid of him if we go down is.....who could you entice to come to Hibs to take over?

it is shocking that we are in this mess, when Butcher came in there were big expectations! And i myself thought we could at least finish in the top half of the table! Butcher inherited a rubbish team from Fenlon in the first place, but you usually get the new manager syndrome when a new manager comes in, to be fair he mustered up a few results and draws, but since then its been ridiculas! He has brought alot of it on himself by saying publicly that the majority of these players are surplus to requirement! Thats the reason they dont like him. Or his style, also they dont suit his style either!

I m sure if he had kept his mouth shut and gone through the motions until the end of the season, and yes January is a hard month to bring in any possible signings or even decent loans, we could have possibly been safe from the play-off area!

Butchers track record at ICT speaks for it self, did not too badly at Motherwell also, so im sure with alot of these players whos contracts are up at the end of the season anyway, would have been emptied with him bringing in more of his own signings!

He has certainly proven he can work from a shoestring budget, with ICT, and again you would have thought that coming to a biggar club, with biggar fan base, stadium, training centre etc... Something might have clicked by now, but no matter what league we end up in, it probably not good to have the new manager merry go round again, as others have said, maybe he just needed time and maybe he will come good in the end!....this is ofcoarse except if Leaane Dempster has her own thoughts and actions!

[basehibby]

yes

[Ronniekirk]

Yes.

He is partly responsible for getting us into this mess, he can sort it.

It would also cost a bomb to empty him and if relegated we wouldn't have the cash.

Either way he needs to empty most of the squad and bring in his own players. I can only hope for everyone's sake it is in the premiership.

This Did the the three stooges not all get longer contracts so cost of emptying them is not palatable for stability and financially it restricts what we can use on player budget as one of the reasons I think he wasn't able to bring in players he wanted in January was lack of funds available and the board didn't contemplate we could be in this situation so did t see need to back him In January ,planning for a summer clear out which on face of it probably was reasonable assumption at that point .

[GreenLake]

Sometimes I am disappointed when someone suggests that they know something almost "material" about something which baffles many and yet, when the surface gets scratched, it turns out that it's just some more hot air!

I will of course overcome my disappointment that the stuff you posted about the pervasive "problem" behind our longish period of failing to achieve our team potential seems to be more "hot air" than anything substantial!

I just don't get why anyone would raise such a matter as a "hunch" when they know that it is a subject that might be of interest as a "reason why" the underachievement on the pitch has arisen.

Critics like you are aplenty as it is easy to find fault and never letting the truth get in the way of a "good story" often helps that along!

Take it easy! :wink:

In summary yet again;

The problem (substance)
Three separate incidents were given where players complained over recent years. The connection between the incidents is that all three of them happened at Hibs (staggeringly obvious). It's face slappingly simple and the only connection we need to be interested in. :greengrin

The answer
Tell players that they will follow the managers instructions in training or on the pitch and put processes in place to enforce that. Unless they have the exceptional playing abilities of Wayne Rooney, Carlos Tevez or George Best, where some griping might be overlooked from time to time.

It's not rocket science.:agree:

I keep repeating a simple argument and you keep ridiculing and obfuscating claiming it's "hot air" or "without substance" like you are following page one of a PR playbook. What is so damaging about my opinion that you try so hard to destroy it? :wink:

You claim I am gunning for the players but several managers have taken the boot and Petrie has taken the flack for years. The only place we have left to turn our attention to is the team or it's mentality. Let's get it done for the sake of Hibs. :cb