Pat Fenlon

[Hibeesmad]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?

[blackpoolhibs]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?

No.

[CB_NO3]

No

[HFC 0-7]

Whocares,heleft!

[Alex Trager]

Dono

[Michael]

No.

[dmc1875]

Nope

[scuttle]

Probably

[CallumLaidlaw]

Maybe

[Sir David Gray]

Irrelevant.

[jacomo]

Maybe

:greengrin

[yeezus.]

No.

[The_Horde]

Thereorthereabouts.

[Stevie Reid]

No

[Gmack7]

Mibbiesayemibbiesnaw

[Pete]

We'd still be in our own half....minus Leigh.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

No. And we probably wouldn't have lost the way we did to Raith, either.

[keep the faith]

Yes

[Borderhibbie76]

Irrelevant but NO

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[hibee_girl]

Nope

[MWHIBBIES]

We'd be top 6 IMO :tin hat:

[sleeping giant]

Meh

[lyonhibs]

No

[hfc rd]

Probably not

[MrRobot]

Yes.

[greenlex]

Jeeezzzusssss!!!!!!!

[sleeping giant]

Jeeezzzusssss!!!!!!!

Help me Jebus

[CallumLaidlaw]

No. And we probably wouldn't have lost the way we did to Raith, either.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19340440

[snooky]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?

Hypothetical :coffee:

[weonlywon6-2]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?

Doesnt matter,after the hearts cup game fans were calling for his head so he left.We cannot look back and say that he would not of had us in this position because no one was willing to put up with him any longer.

Leigh grifiths goals are the difference in this season to last
Imo of course !

[Northernhibee]

Pomegranate.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19340440

An away game that was last season with different players.

Williams; Clancy, O'Hanlon, Hanlon, Kujabi (Wotherspoon); Cairney, Claros, Deegan, Booth (Maybury); Kuqi (Doyle), Griffiths. Subs: Caldwell, Antell.

No wonder we lost.

[CallumLaidlaw]

An away game that was last season with different players.

Williams; Clancy, O'Hanlon, Hanlon, Kujabi (Wotherspoon); Cairney, Claros, Deegan, Booth (Maybury); Kuqi (Doyle), Griffiths. Subs: Caldwell, Antell.

No wonder we lost.

A team that Fenlon put together against a 3rd tier team.

[GlasgowHibee]

Absolutely not.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

A team that Fenlon put together against a 3rd tier team.

The team he put together this season would have beaten them though.

[RedHibby]

Yes.

[The Harp Awakes]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?

Nope.

[Westie1875]

No

[CallumLaidlaw]

The team he put together this season would have beaten them though.

We don't know that. That team had Griffiths in it.
Fenlons team scored 9 goals in 11 league games this season. A theme that has continued.
We have no idea how the season would have panned out under PF. but let's not kid ourselves that our form was scintillating before he left.
Would Butcher have lost 7-0 to Malmo? Maybe, we'll never know.

[Bostonhibby]

Never going to happen. I'd have strangled him with my own bare hands after making another trip north to see us capitulate after yet another eye bleeding display.................

[ekhibee]

yes

[emerald green]

One's as bad as the other - PF & TB. Both tactically naïve, and both working with many (not all) players who are simply not good enough into the bargain. Recipe for disaster. Just look at the league table. It doesn't lie.

[dunks]

Nope!

[Albion Hibs]

No.

[Bronson]

Irrelevant.

This.

[Jonnyboy]

Irrelevant

[Pretty Boy]

Trolling.

[eezyrider]

Yes.

We would already be confirmed as 11th.

EZ

[gillythehibby]

Would yer aunty be yer uncle if she had baws?? Irrelevant question. What we do know is we'd probably not be in this position if the board had fronted up for better players !

[SunshineOnLeith]

We'd probably have finished 7th and he'd have been sacked/pushed at the end of the season for that finish.

[#2 Double Tap]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?possibly

[ManBearPig]

No. But people would still be bitching like women in a hairdressers

[Cropley10]

Pat Fenlon will never get a job as big as the one he had at Hibs.

[IberianHibernian]

Definitely not . I reckon we`d be about 5th if Petrie had kept him and backed him in winter ( and I don`t just mean in transfer window ) and a clear 6th / 7th without that support . Might be looking forward to another cup final too . The stats on the other thread comparing managers put Fenlon in a pretty good position considering the quality some of his predessors had in squad . Didn`t have enough backing from press and club to fulfil potential . Anyway , not time to debate managers . Lets get this season over with and then make a brave decisión about next year`s manager .

[AgentDaleCooper]

it's not irrelevant IMO - we called for fenlon to be sacked, and he handed in his notice. i think there's one great misinterpretation of something he said - that the fans have unrealistic expectations. we rightly expect to be in the top six, at the very least - but i don't think he'd argue with that. i think what he meant was our short term expectations - that we should be able to achieve what we yearn for immediately. granted, we were not doing great, but we were at least in contention for a top six finish - something to build on, after the three previous seasons of hopelessness. IMO, if we'd lost the cup final 2-1 and not been so utterly humiliated by malmo, he'd still have been in his job. in a sense, these two games, more than any others, cost him his position at the club, and ultimately, perhaps, us our position in the premiership.

if we go down, butcher needs at least two seasons to put together a team that can get us promoted again. he's done it before, and thus knows how to do it again. he builds teams over time - time i hope he is given.

[Hibrandenburg]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?

No we wouldn't and all those who helped push him out the door need to realise that they've played a major role in us being where we are now.

Harsh but true.

[Keith_M]

Well, we refused to accept mediocrity under Fenlon and, to be fair, we no longer have it. We now wish we were as good as mediocre.


Anyway, I'm now convinced we're gonna win on Saturday, Butcher is gonna sign a whole new set of players in June/July and we'll be flying next season and looking back at this and laughing at how bad we once were.



I know this for a fact because the wife told me. :thumbsup:

[patlowe]

Would ICT have finished 2nd if Butcher had stayed?

Would Hearts have won the league if Burley had stayed?

Would we all be speaking German if the allies hadn't won the war?

[Keith_M]

Would ICT have finished 2nd if Butcher had stayed?

Would Hearts have won the league if Burley had stayed?

Would we all be speaking German if the allies hadn't won the war?


Natürlich. Was denkst du?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

No we wouldn't and all those who helped push him out the door need to realise that they've played a major role in us being where we are now.

Harsh but true.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Shouldve been emptied before he was eventually gone.

[patlowe]

Natürlich. Was denkst du?

Möglicherweise.

[Hibrandenburg]

Well, we refused to accept mediocrity under Fenlon and, to be fair, we no longer have it. We now wish we were as good as mediocre.
@

Anyway, I'm now convinced we're gonna win on Saturday, Butcher is gonna sign a whole new set of players in June/July and we'll be flying next season and looking back at this and laughing at how bad we once were.



I know this for a fact because the wife told me. :thumbsup:

God I hope she's right Keith, these Teutonic wenches do have a habit of being so. :wink:

We're in a right mess here and not just on the pitch. The boardroom, changing room and the terrace need to start pulling together instead of pulling us apart.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

He must be laughing right now.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Shouldve been emptied before he was eventually gone.

No hindsight involved on my part.

[jodjam]

He must be laughing right now.

Why? I honestly believe he wont be. From what I have heard he still thinks well of us so can't imagine him laughing at us.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

Why? I honestly believe he wont be. From what I have heard he still thinks well of us so can't imagine him laughing at us.

Not like that. I mean he must be laughing at the job Butcher is doing and that ee haven't improved since Pat left.

[whereswallace?]

Never!

[silverhibee]

Guinness

[eggbamyasi]

Yes

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[eggbamyasi]

Having looked back at the mental get fenlon out threads and I hate fenlon stuff theres a lot of posters on here and a few other threads with horiffic contradictions ....................

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[blackpoolhibs]

Having looked back at the mental get fenlon out threads and I hate fenlon stuff theres a lot of posters on here and a few other threads with horiffic contradictions ....................

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I wanted him out after the 9-0 Malmo debacle, but i dont think he'd have us in a relegation battle. If thats a contradiction then bring it on.

[J-C]

I wanted him out after the 9-0 Malmo debacle, but i dont think he'd have us in a relegation battle. If thats a contradiction then bring it on.


Not really G, under Pat we bored everyone stiff but we were at least hard to beat the majority of the time, you knew every once in a while a drubbing was round the corner but it was always from a better team than ours.

[Argylehibby]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?

No

[eggbamyasi]

I wanted him out after the 9-0 Malmo debacle, but i dont think he'd have us in a relegation battle. If thats a contradiction then bring it on.

You spoke in a thread a week or two ago mentioning about rather having fenlon etc etc butcher out etc etc yet looking back you actually started a thread octoberish furiously attcking fenlon and wanting him booted . Imo its the knee jerk reaction from fans like yourself that is a large part of why were in such a ****ing mess that we are . Too boot managers soon as we have a **** run . Cant believe people cant see sacking so many managers has a bad effect on the club . Sometimes it needs done . But imo now its most certainly doesnt . We have fenlons team which is all over the place and a managment team thats been in 6 months with no time to change or do anything really . To sack him now would just continue the rot imo . Look at english prem for an example this year . Look at the teams who booted there managers due to panic or dip in form . Im totally pissed off with where hibs are now and how utterly **** we are but I dont blame the manager I blame the players 80% and fenlons ability to get a squad together 10% and the boards signing policies the other 10% not a manager whos been here 5 mins with a total cluster **** of a mess to deal with . All my opinion ofc .

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[J-C]

You spoke in a thread a week or two ago mentioning about rather having fenlon etc etc butcher out etc etc yet looking back you actually started a thread octoberish furiously attcking fenlon and wanting him booted . Imo its the knee jerk reaction from fans like yourself that is a large part of why were in such a ****ing mess that we are . Too boot managers soon as we have a **** run . Cant believe people cant see sacking so many managers has a bad effect on the club . Sometimes it needs done . But imo now its most certainly doesnt . We have fenlons team which is all over the place and a managment team thats been in 6 months with no time to change or do anything really . To sack him now would just continue the rot imo . Look at english prem for an example this year . Look at the teams who booted there managers due to panic or dip in form . Im totally pissed off with where hibs are now and how utterly **** we are but I dont blame the manager I blame the players 80% and fenlons ability to get a squad together 10% and the boards signing policies the other 10% not a manager whos been here 5 mins with a total cluster **** of a mess to deal with . All my opinion ofc .

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TBF Gary wasn't the only person wanting Fenlon out, plus it wasn't where we were just the eye bleeding football on display. Pat had ran his course and you could see he'd stabilized the club but wasn't able to take us the further steps we wanted, we sat mid table going neither up nor down and nothing on the park looked like it was changing anytime soon. We had what most of the pundits were saying a pretty decent squad and was ready for someone to come in and take them on, Butcher was the unanimous answer. He got them playing more direct and allowed them to be more expressive in their play but he alienated Thomson, who is the real captain of the team, well as far as the majority of the players are concerned, then he told 4 to go in January and a good few more they'd be away come the summer, morale vanishes and we are where we are. :confused:

[BVB Hibs]

No

As boring as PF was to watch, he had a solid team on the park every time we played. Sure, there were a few drubbings along the way, but could you imagine what Malmo would do to us if we were to play them now?

I always felt that Pat had the potential to turn the side around given more time. Remember that when he was our manager the popular opinion was that we'd be sitting in the top 4 with any other manager. Yes, the squad did lack balance, but one thing that has to be said for Pat, the squad (If we ignore sparky for just a moment) got stronger year on year, despite the awful transfers like Vine and Kuqi.

I understood the reaction when it came to Fenlon. We'd just lost to Hearts again, and we'd not had the most impressive start to the season. We did however grind out results, which is why I believe we'd be sitting 6/7th, some way off the playoffs, with him still there as manager. Pat getting dumped was always going to happen after the reaction from the fans though. Nobody wanted to go and watch such negative football every Saturday. But, it was never the right time to offload a manager who wasn't struggling. It was never going to go wrong under Pat. I'd have let him bring in the season, and then given another manager the chance. I don't agree with sacking managers mid season unless serious intervention is needed (like it is now).

[yekimevol]

Nope if pat had stayed we would be 7th in the league possibly just sneaked 6th depending on what he did in the window.

[ChicagoHibee]

Just looking for a one word answer.

Would we be in this position if he was still here?

That would be an ecumenical matter.

[blackpoolhibs]

You spoke in a thread a week or two ago mentioning about rather having fenlon etc etc butcher out etc etc yet looking back you actually started a thread octoberish furiously attcking fenlon and wanting him booted . Imo its the knee jerk reaction from fans like yourself that is a large part of why were in such a ****ing mess that we are . Too boot managers soon as we have a **** run . Cant believe people cant see sacking so many managers has a bad effect on the club . Sometimes it needs done . But imo now its most certainly doesnt . We have fenlons team which is all over the place and a managment team thats been in 6 months with no time to change or do anything really . To sack him now would just continue the rot imo . Look at english prem for an example this year . Look at the teams who booted there managers due to panic or dip in form . Im totally pissed off with where hibs are now and how utterly **** we are but I dont blame the manager I blame the players 80% and fenlons ability to get a squad together 10% and the boards signing policies the other 10% not a manager whos been here 5 mins with a total cluster **** of a mess to deal with . All my opinion ofc .

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What is the purpose of message boards like these if its not to give YOUR opinion on what is happening at the club we all support? Fenlon had us playing the worst football i had witnessed since Bertie Aulds time as manager, yes i go back that far. The team he was in charge of was boring the ****in tits off me, it had been partly responsible for whittling down a decent travelling support from down here in Lancashire of around 15-20 to 1 or 2.

People used to laugh when i rang them asking if they were going on Saturday to the game, it was a great day out going up on the train with a crowd of us, but now it was crap and lonely.

Boltonhibs said to me he'd rather watch kids football than travel and watch that dross. My mate paul Flannyboy on here would rather put pins in his eyes. Billy who views on here but does not post said he's finally cured of Hibs.

Fenlon was driving fans away, the football was drivel and no amount of rewriting history will change that. Although after saying that, i'd still prefer Fenlons crap to Butchers sheite, but is that what the choice is now as a Hibs fan?

Fenlon was crap, Butcher is crap. Fact.

[PeeJay]

Fenlon's legacy is what we are contending with right now. Butcher can't sort it out (obviously), Fenlon wouldn't have been able to either. Why would anybody think otherwise? What evidence would there be to back that opinion up? Any good results Fenlon had (the few good ones) were down to Griffiths. Without him, we have the situation we now have. I hope Butcher signs some more accomplished players who can make next season a happier one for all of us. Butcher deserves his chance, Fenlon had his chance.

The sole priority at the club is to stay up. Even if you really do believe that Mr 1-5-0-7 Fenlon would have us in a better place now: he doesn't and we ain't: he is irrelevant, he is history - and however anybody twists it he is bad history ... if you want to know why we are where we are, think Paddy Fenlon, if you want us to improve as a club, forget him!

[Nutmegged]

Hypothetical

[borstalboy]

Far too many if's, but's and maybe's for this type of question. As I've said previously, do you think we would've scored more goals playing under Fenlon than we would've under Butcher?!.....can't say you would convince me on the answer Yes to that question. It's irrelevant whether we play well or poorly, if you can't score a goal then you have no chance of winning and thus lies our problem. Butcher, Fenlon, you and I could do all the training in the world on finishing, tactics etc, doesn't mean that they will score when it matters.

[Hibernia&Alba]

My answer would have to be no, on the basis that our form under Terence couldn't be repeated by any manager. Whatever the reasons, our failure to win a game since mid February is incredible.

[Pete]

I think that once we have a definitive answer we should get the delorean warmed up immediately.

[Nutmegged]

I don't think we would have went down under Pat Fenlon to be honest but thats not saying to much, these are his players so I think he would have got the best he could out of them, I think we would have been hovering around 6th/7th place cone week 33 and playing for a top 6 spot, that wasn't good enough though.

If Terry Butcher isn't the right guy for the job thats fair enough, but lets not kid ourselves, Pat Fenlon wasn't either, we did need change.

What would have been interesting though is what would have happened if Pat was still here in January, it was obvious that he rated Lyle Taylor highly and we did try and sign him last Summer, if he was available on loan for Thistle I often wonder if we woulf have went for him under Pat, that and one or two others, a wide player with pace... it might have been a totally different season.

Pat's time was up though, he was a nice wee fella but he looked and acted like he was beat before a ball was kicked, he didn't breed much confidence.

[TornadoHibby]

I don't think we would have went down under Pat Fenlon to be honest but thats not saying to much, these are his players so I think he would have got the best he could out of them, I think we would have been hovering around 6th/7th place cone week 33 and playing for a top 6 spot, that wasn't good enough though.

If Terry Butcher isn't the right guy for the job thats fair enough, but lets not kid ourselves, Pat Fenlon wasn't either, we did need change.

What would have been interesting though is what would have happened if Pat was still here in January, it was obvious that he rated Lyle Taylor highly and we did try and sign him last Summer, if he was available on loan for Thistle I often wonder if we woulf have went for him under Pat, that and one or two others, a wide player with pace... it might have been a totally different season.

Pat's time was up though, he was a nice wee fella but he looked and acted like he was beat before a ball was kicked, he didn't breed much confidence.

A good and honest summary IMO! :aok:

I met Pat a couple of times too and he was a nice guy! He just wasn't up to taking Hibs to better places but I too am sure that he would not have had as at "death's door" like we are at the moment! :agree:

I really do hope that the team can pull a win out of the hat on Saturday such that the trapdoor to a Scottish football wildernes for us, even if temporarily so, remains well and truly closed! :agree:

[Cropley10]

Far too many if's, but's and maybe's for this type of question. As I've said previously, do you think we would've scored more goals playing under Fenlon than we would've under Butcher?!.....can't say you would convince me on the answer Yes to that question. It's irrelevant whether we play well or poorly, if you can't score a goal then you have no chance of winning and thus lies our problem. Butcher, Fenlon, you and I could do all the training in the world on finishing, tactics etc, doesn't mean that they will score when it matters.

Especially true when you consider who we signed to play up front & score goals.

[oregonhibby]

I think the downward spiral over a number of managers has caused the current situation. Buying out contracts of managers and players is not cheap and reduces the pot meaning there is less available to sign new ones and inevitably that means lower quality.

Churn cost money and it is inevitable that with the same level of salaries the effective signing budget reduces. Yes a reduction if non playing staff will offset that but not wholly. So rather than pin it all on Fenlon we should think about the whole picnic basket, or the basket cases!

[Albion Hibs]

When pat fenlon took over hibs we ended the season in a lower position than when he came in, 2nd bottom, alas the position we are in now, the difference being the relegation play off. That season was met with "let him get his own players in", butcher should be no different. Arguably butcher inherited a far worse team as well.

Pat was a terrible manager, he should have been emptied after the hearts final, and there is reasoning to think we would be better off with him...only worse.

[Stevie Reid]

Don't really see much of a debate here, even though we are dealing in speculation - Fenlon won 4 of his 11 SPL matches in charge this season, Butcher managed as many (or as few) out of his 25. I'd be extremely confident that Pat would have picked up a lot more points.

People were quick to dismiss the fact that we got to two cup finals in a row - yes the 5-1 was horrendous, but for the Celtic game we were unbelievably unfortunate that Griffiths, probably one of the most in form strikers in the country at that time, was injured the night before the game. Getting to two in a row was a considerable achievement, even though the end results were disappointing.

And so here we are, finishing off this season not with a cup final, but with a relegation play off after losing 12 of our last 17 games, and against a Championship team that will be confident, and in good form. A lot of people on here derided Yogi, not without reason, but Calderwood's appointment showed that he wasn't as bad as people made out - similarly, Butcher is showing up Fenlon to be better than many would have us believe.

Just to be clear, I felt Fenlon's time was up when he went (though was thankful for the job he had done overall) - though it wasn't always, the football being served up was awful, and he had had too many bad results to get the fans back onside. I was also happy with Butcher's appointment, though was keen to highlight his dodgy track record alongside his recent good one, whilst acknowledging that what he had done previously really meant **** all - it was only what he did from the moment he started here that mattered. Sadly, he has made a complete mess of absolutely everything.

I've often said on here that people are far too keen to class managers as either 'good' or 'bad' when the reality is that most managers, especially those who will manage us, will have a chequered past, with failures at some point in their history. I wouldn't go as far as saying that Fenlon was a good manager for Hibs - more a decent one - but he took over a team in much worse shape than Butcher did, and did some good things and improved us overall.

So far, Butcher has been a terrible Hibs manager, and made an average SPL team one that is effectively the worst in the league, and one that would have been relegated already if it weren't for Hearts started on minus 15 points. I can't see where he can go from here, whether we stay up or not.

[IberianHibernian]

Don't really see much of a debate here, even though we are dealing in speculation - Fenlon won 4 of his 11 SPL matches in charge this season, Butcher managed as many (or as few) out of his 25. I'd be extremely confident that Pat would have picked up a lot more points.

People were quick to dismiss the fact that we got to two cup finals in a row - yes the 5-1 was horrendous, but for the Celtic game we were unbelievably unfortunate that Griffiths, probably one of the most in form strikers in the country at that time, was injured the night before the game. Getting to two in a row was a considerable achievement, even though the end results were disappointing.

And so here we are, finishing off this season not with a cup final, but with a relegation play off after losing 12 of our last 17 games, and against a Championship team that will be confident, and in good form. A lot of people on here derided Yogi, not without reason, but Calderwood's appointment showed that he wasn't as bad as people made out - similarly, Butcher is showing up Fenlon to be better than many would have us believe.

Just to be clear, I felt Fenlon's time was up when he went (though was thankful for the job he had done overall) - though it wasn't always, the football being served up was awful, and he had had too many bad results to get the fans back onside. I was also happy with Butcher's appointment, though was keen to highlight his dodgy track record alongside his recent good one, whilst acknowledging that what he had done previously really meant **** all - it was only what he did from the moment he started here that mattered. Sadly, he has made a complete mess of absolutely everything.

I've often said on here that people are far too keen to class managers as either 'good' or 'bad' when the reality is that most managers, especially those who will manage us, will have a chequered past, with failures at some point in their history. I wouldn't go as far as saying that Fenlon was a good manager for Hibs - more a decent one - but he took over a team in much worse shape than Butcher did, and did some good things and improved us overall.

So far, Butcher has been a terrible Hibs manager, and made an average SPL team one that is effectively the worst in the league, and one that would have been relegated already if it weren't for Hearts started on minus 15 points. I can't see where he can go from here, whether we stay up or not.Excellent post . Whatever happens in play off we have the luck that decision on next year`s manager doesn`t have to be made now - we can take time and interview candidates and there are lots of possibilities . On general point about managers I agree - what is a good manager ? Time for a Director of Football with strong youth and scouting staff and a manager signed for one or maximum 2 seasons . When Fenlon was signed I looked forward to a 3 or 4 year project with a manager with a fantastic track record in Ireland and great appetite to succeed at Hibs and I still think it could have happened . When Butcher arrived I had no feeling of excitement or expectation and wish him well wherever he is next season which presumably won`t be at Easter Road ( sacked / resignation ) if relegated and new manager to boost season ticket sales if we stay up .

[Dashing Bob S]

Fenlon was rubbish and brought in crap, gutless, one-paced players who were easily turned over by most clubs. That said, while it's possible this spineless bunch would give up for anybody, it's difficult to see them go into the extreme freefall that they have under Butcher.

Butcher's career is now on the line. If we go down, he's a new low in abject failure, even by the bottom-feeder standards we've grown used to at Hibs.

If we stay up, the players he brings in are under great pressure to drastically improve our standing.

Fenlon clearly wasn't the answer, but Butcher is trapped in a nightmare, partly one inherited, partly of his own making, as he's obviously somehow induced the players to stop playing for him, then, when he's won them round, they've gotten used to losing.

[fife hfc]

I think the downward spiral over a number of managers has caused the current situation. Buying out contracts of managers and players is not cheap and reduces the pot meaning there is less available to sign new ones and inevitably that means lower quality.

Churn cost money and it is inevitable that with the same level of salaries the effective signing budget reduces. Yes a reduction if non playing staff will offset that but not wholly. So rather than pin it all on Fenlon we should think about the whole picnic basket, or the basket cases!

:top marks this is the real problem. Even though I do not believe fenlon would have us in this position he suffered due to previous errors by the board. I would say the problems started when collins left and the subsequent manager and player turnover. Just look at Motherwell and St Johnstone both have fairly stable core of players over the last few seasons. We are likely to have a large player turnover again and therefore almost starting from scratch yet again. Until we get out of this cycle it will continue to be a downward spiral.

[IberianHibernian]

:top marks this is the real problem. Even though I do not believe fenlon would have us in this position he suffered due to previous errors by the board. I would say the problems started when collins left and the subsequent manager and player turnover. Just look at Motherwell and St Johnstone both have fairly stable core of players over the last few seasons. We are likely to have a large player turnover again and therefore almost starting from scratch yet again. Until we get out of this cycle it will continue to be a downward spiral.As an example of player turnover - Clancy ( Butcher preferred Boateng ) , Cregg and Wotherspoon ( all considered not good enough by many / most here ) all played against Celtic last week in top 6 match before cup final . Someone said on another thread that Butcher had 9 signings lined up presumably before we hit freefall ( money possibly kept aside since before Butcher even arrived at ER ) so must have been expecting to get rid of at least as many . Unless previous manager was denied massive chunk of money earned from cup runs , our accountants had accounted for such massive changes ( compensation , hotels for new players , etc etc ) .

[Stevie Reid]

Fenlon was rubbish and brought in crap, gutless, one-paced players who were easily turned over by most clubs. That said, while it's possible this spineless bunch would give up for anybody, it's difficult to see them go into the extreme freefall that they have under Butcher.

Butcher's career is now on the line. If we go down, he's a new low in abject failure, even by the bottom-feeder standards we've grown used to at Hibs.

If we stay up, the players he brings in are under great pressure to drastically improve our standing.

Fenlon clearly wasn't the answer, but Butcher is trapped in a nightmare, partly one inherited, partly of his own making, as he's obviously somehow induced the players to stop playing for him, then, when he's won them round, they've gotten used to losing.

Can't argue about the players Fenlon signed being one paced certainly, Bob - it was the lack of pace in the side that was our biggest issue for a long, long time under Pat - but I wouldn't call the likes of Clancy, McPake, Claros, Williams, Doyle, Cairney, Maybury, Taiwo, Robertson and Thomson, gutless.

Pat's problem was that he lost his two best players from last season (Griffiths and Claros), and didn't come close to replacing them, though I was encouraged by the signings of both Thomson and Heffernan - two players incidentally, whom Butcher puzzlingly deemed surplus to requirements, only to see them both injured when he finally decided to call upon their services.

We were turned over easily in some games under Pat, not so in many others, with the majority being pretty uninspiring stalemates. The team has been turned over easily under Butcher, as 5 wins out of 27, and a loss ratio of 52%, show only too well.

Pat certainly made many mistakes in his time as Hibs manager, and it was his mistakes in the transfer market last close season that cost him. Butcher has made nothing but mistakes, with his handling of the squad he inherited, and his work in the January transfer window, both being pitiful. He hasn't improved one single player, and indeed has managed to make many even worse. I have zero faith in him.