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View Full Version : For those who want Butcher gone, here's a thought



Twa Cairpets
07-05-2014, 10:11 AM
At ICT, he took four years to build a team to get to a position where they consistently did better than Hibs.

I, for one, thought ICT were a good team to watch when they came to ER - good fast break attacks, with players bought to suit the system that Butcher believes in. If nothing else, if you could transport the entire ICT team to ER tomorrow, it would surely be likely that they would perform to the same or similar level as Butcher had them at ICT - this suggests to me he is a good coach if he gets players that fit into his system. For whatever reason, the players here now are legacies, and he's trying to fit very square pegs into very round holes, for the most part.

To get rid today would to me be insane - relegation would be a disaster, but going into the (hopefully) final game without a manager would be ludicrous.

He must be given an opportunity to build his own team - you can argue till the cows come home about whether he will be allowed/able to do so - but the fact remains that will be the case with any manager.

I'm not convinced with him - it would be bloody hard to be given the winless streak - but I don't think that you can make players do what they're not equipped to do. Would Pep Guardiola be able to get Hibs playing like Barca? We're Hibs, currently a below average top-flight club in a below average league and we get the players we can afford. The manager needs players he can work with to suit his football philosophy. That is where disconnect is right now - the players aren't compatible with the managers preferred system.

Lester B
07-05-2014, 10:26 AM
Not buying that. I don't want him out before Saturday but I was there last night and it was tactically inept and the players are scared and he clearly is doing nothing useful to motivate them.

The 'he needs his own players' mantra is becoming pitiful. Pat Fenlon got more out of these players than Butcher has. Any manager should be able to at least keep up the same standard and hopefully improve them. He has made an average team utterly mediocre by his inability to manage the resources he inherited.

Gus Fring
07-05-2014, 10:32 AM
Not buying that. I don't want him out before Saturday but I was there last night and it was tactically inept and the players are scared and he clearly is doing nothing useful to motivate them.

The 'he needs his own players' mantra is becoming pitiful. Pat Fenlon got more out of these players than Butcher has. Any manager should be able to at least keep up the same standard and hopefully improve them. He has made an average team utterly mediocre by his inability to manage the resources he inherited.

They're Pat Fenlons players. He left because he'd "taken the team as far is it could go". With this team he got us beat twice from Hearts and a 9-0 aggregate defeat. There were protests to get rid of him! Where did the oh so wonderful Pat finish when he took over? 11th!

JimBHibees
07-05-2014, 10:34 AM
At ICT, he took four years to build a team to get to a position where they consistently did better than Hibs.

I, for one, thought ICT were a good team to watch when they came to ER - good fast break attacks, with players bought to suit the system that Butcher believes in. If nothing else, if you could transport the entire ICT team to ER tomorrow, it would surely be likely that they would perform to the same or similar level as Butcher had them at ICT - this suggests to me he is a good coach if he gets players that fit into his system. For whatever reason, the players here now are legacies, and he's trying to fit very square pegs into very round holes, for the most part.

To get rid today would to me be insane - relegation would be a disaster, but going into the (hopefully) final game without a manager would be ludicrous.

He must be given an opportunity to build his own team - you can argue till the cows come home about whether he will be allowed/able to do so - but the fact remains that will be the case with any manager.

I'm not convinced with him - it would be bloody hard to be given the winless streak - but I don't think that you can make players do what they're not equipped to do. Would Pep Guardiola be able to get Hibs playing like Barca? We're Hibs, currently a below average top-flight club in a below average league and we get the players we can afford. The manager needs players he can work with to suit his football philosophy. That is where disconnect is right now - the players aren't compatible with the managers preferred system.

Agree with that completely that he needs to be given time however there is no doubt IMO we should be doing better than we are. Even a couple of draws would have seen us safe.

PatHead
07-05-2014, 10:35 AM
Wonder where the clamour for Shields is now after his successful stint at Morton.

Just_Jimmy
07-05-2014, 10:36 AM
Even if we beat killie, he should go. His record is disgraceful.


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sven nil
07-05-2014, 10:37 AM
Sick hearing this mate in fact it borders on weak, OK I will take ICT and throw back Brentford and Sydney .

Lester B
07-05-2014, 10:45 AM
They're Pat Fenlons players. He left because he'd "taken the team as far is it could go". With this team he got us beat twice from Hearts and a 9-0 aggregate defeat. There were protests to get rid of him! Where did the oh so wonderful Pat finish when he took over? 11th!

The comment about Fenlon was in no way praise of him. Perhaps I should have prefaced my comment with the word 'Even'. You want to answer the rest of my post or choose to believe that I was praising Fenlon? They are no longer Pat Fenlon's players. They are Hibs players and Butcher is the Hibs manager. It is his job to get them playing a suitable system after assessing their abilities or lack thereof. Or would you care to debate the wisdom of the three players in the squad who are Butcher's players? Two of whom came on last night and did nothing, the other being barely visible at all in the last few months

Speedway
07-05-2014, 10:47 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

borstalboy
07-05-2014, 10:54 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

:top marks

sven nil
07-05-2014, 10:58 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!! Na that is weak given we were not talking about fenlon or mcleish

Lester B
07-05-2014, 10:59 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

You can do better than that and hyperbole looks desperate. No one appointed in living memory was touted as a tactical genius. Butcher had a decent team at ICT and was regarded by almost all on here as someone who would sort out under achievers and motivate them all. He has singularly failed at that and the proof was there for all to see in Dingwall last night.

FitbaFolkKen
07-05-2014, 10:59 AM
They're Pat Fenlons players. He left because he'd "taken the team as far is it could go". With this team he got us beat twice from Hearts and a 9-0 aggregate defeat. There were protests to get rid of him! Where did the oh so wonderful Pat finish when he took over? 11th!

18% win rate is unacceptable, if he loses another game it becomes less than half Pat's. For someone who made a big deal about the psychological aspect of the game when he arrived the mentality at ER is awfully fragile.

Gus Fring
07-05-2014, 11:00 AM
The comment about Fenlon was in no way praise of him. Perhaps I should have prefaced my comment with the word 'Even'. You want to answer the rest of my post or choose to believe that I was praising Fenlon? They are no longer Pat Fenlon's players. They are Hibs players and Butcher is the Hibs manager. It is his job to get them playing a suitable system after assessing their abilities or lack thereof. Or would you care to debate the wisdom of the three players in the squad who are Butcher's players? Two of whom came on last night and did nothing, the other being barely visible at all in the last few months

Apologies, I read it wrong. I agree with you about the players Butcher brought in in January. I'm sort of hoping they were rushed just to have something to show for it as there was lots of rumours at the time that we were missing our primary targets (Adam Rooney for eg). If rumours are to be believed then that's Petries fault and it looks like he won't be a problem going forward.

I think the problem we have just now is that at least half (I'm being generous) of the squad don't want to be here and aren't good enough. There's only so far you can take mediocre players and I think Terry got an initial response out of them but they've shown in the second half of the season that they just aren't good enough.

He needs to keep a few of the good players and tell the rest to GTF. He can then rebuild the entire squad from the ground up and get them playing the way he likes to play. This needs to happen whatever division we are in.

FitbaFolkKen
07-05-2014, 11:04 AM
It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.


It's interesting that you've put this in your post sarcastically, because this is pretty much what is on evidence at ER right now is it not? His record at Hibs is the worst in his career by a long way, apart from Brentford where he was sacked after 23 games with a slightly better record.

Steve20
07-05-2014, 11:04 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

Where we not bottom by quite a few points when McLeish took over??? Compared to sitting mid-table when Butcher arrived.

The_Horde
07-05-2014, 11:05 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

Absolutely spot on mate.

Northernhibee
07-05-2014, 11:05 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

Nail on head.

People wanted Fenlon out, people wanted Butcher in, we got what we wanted and we knew there is no overnight fix to our problems.

cleanyman
07-05-2014, 11:05 AM
Butcher must go.

5 wins, 3 against Ross County.

Complete and utter dumpling.

The_Horde
07-05-2014, 11:06 AM
Where we not bottom by quite a few points when McLeish took over??? Compared to sitting mid-table when Butcher arrived.

Sitting mid table very early in the season with the likes of Rowan Vine in our side. Wow.

Fenlon has said he walked out because the players weren't listening him. This would have happened anyway.

Lester B
07-05-2014, 11:06 AM
Where we not bottom by quite a few points when McLeish took over??? Compared to sitting mid-table when Butcher arrived.

:top marks

Lester B
07-05-2014, 11:08 AM
;3998650']Sitting mid table very early in the season with the likes of Rowan Vine in our side. Wow.

Fenlon has said he walked out because the players weren't listening him. This would have happened anyway.

Isn't it Butcher's job to get them to listen to him? Or at least say something worth listening to??

The_Horde
07-05-2014, 11:10 AM
Isn't it Butcher's job to get them to listen to him? Or at least say something worth listening to??

If Fenlon couldn't get through to players that HE signed what chance has Butcher got?

The players are the people who need to show a lot more.

sven nil
07-05-2014, 11:11 AM
Butcher said we were going into county game in form,He has lost the plot if he had it in the fist place.

FitbaFolkKen
07-05-2014, 11:13 AM
;3998650']Sitting mid table very early in the season with the likes of Rowan Vine in our side. Wow.

Fenlon has said he walked out because the players weren't listening him. This would have happened anyway.

Early in the season, we were 6th at the turn of the year which was half a season. 8 points in 18 games since then.

We were on 28 points after 19 games, which if we had continued that form would see us end the season on 56 points and finish about 4th or 5th in the table.

We should never have been in this situation.

Beefster
07-05-2014, 11:15 AM
You know these groups of One Direction fans that stand outside the hotel, arena etc waiting for their idols? They can all be standing quiet but all it takes is one of them to start screaming hysterically before they're all at it.

Hibs.net = One Direction fans.

Pretty Boy
07-05-2014, 11:16 AM
Is it not a managers job to have a level of adaptability?

Surely if the players that a manager inherits don't fit a managers preferred style then it is the responsibility of a good manager to try and find a system that is effective.

Lester B
07-05-2014, 11:20 AM
Is it not a managers job to have a level of adaptability?

Surely if the players that a manager inherits don't fit a managers preferred style then it is the responsibility of a good manager to try and find a system that is effective.

Could not agree more. Nail on the head.

mmmmhibby
07-05-2014, 11:27 AM
Even if we beat killie, he should go. His record is disgraceful.


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Correct!!

scuttle
07-05-2014, 11:32 AM
Even if we beat killie, he should go. His record is disgraceful.


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As are his tactics.

jacomo
07-05-2014, 11:41 AM
Is it not a managers job to have a level of adaptability?

Surely if the players that a manager inherits don't fit a managers preferred style then it is the responsibility of a good manager to try and find a system that is effective.

Yup and he has singularly failed to do that.

If we stay up TB gets a chance to right the wrongs from me. As I said on another thread, PF got the same chance and that seems fair.

If PF had got us relegated in his first season with us, I'd have wanted him out the door. Both managers inherited a Hibs team in more or less mid-table and should never have got us dragged into a relegation battle.

I was never convinced in Pat and I've lost faith in Terry. But I hope he can prove us all wrong.

.Sean.
07-05-2014, 11:41 AM
Even if we beat killie, he should go. His record is disgraceful.


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:agree:

Get him to ****. Him and his disgraceful man management got us in this situation. Is it any wonder the players don't care a jot when brainiac tells them they're not wanted?

ekhibee
07-05-2014, 11:46 AM
The comment about Fenlon was in no way praise of him. Perhaps I should have prefaced my comment with the word 'Even'. You want to answer the rest of my post or choose to believe that I was praising Fenlon? They are no longer Pat Fenlon's players. They are Hibs players and Butcher is the Hibs manager. It is his job to get them playing a suitable system after assessing their abilities or lack thereof. Or would you care to debate the wisdom of the three players in the squad who are Butcher's players? Two of whom came on last night and did nothing, the other being barely visible at all in the last few months
I would put some of what you say another way. The team comprises of **** players signed by a **** manager for a team that Butcher happens to manage now. He's tried switching it about on numerous occasions, including playing 4-4-2 and it just hasn't worked. Collins hasn't scored for months and isn't very good anyway, Cummings hasn't scored at all and Heffernan is injured, so the system has to change again to allow midfielders a better chance to score, although the only one in recent months that's looked like doing that is young Stanton. It's fair to say that Collins wouldn't be playing if Heffernan was fit. Our best midfielder is now injured too. The 3 players brought in are loan deals who will bugger off back to wherever they came from in a week or two. Haynes was probably brought in because of the Ipswich connection and he had a good goal scoring record there before being loaned out to other clubs, and the other two belong to premiership clubs, so on the face of it they looked like good loan deals. It hasn't worked out, but I certainly wouldn't be judging Butcher on that.

silverhibee
07-05-2014, 11:50 AM
At ICT, he took four years to build a team to get to a position where they consistently did better than Hibs.

I, for one, thought ICT were a good team to watch when they came to ER - good fast break attacks, with players bought to suit the system that Butcher believes in. If nothing else, if you could transport the entire ICT team to ER tomorrow, it would surely be likely that they would perform to the same or similar level as Butcher had them at ICT - this suggests to me he is a good coach if he gets players that fit into his system. For whatever reason, the players here now are legacies, and he's trying to fit very square pegs into very round holes, for the most part.

To get rid today would to me be insane - relegation would be a disaster, but going into the (hopefully) final game without a manager would be ludicrous.

He must be given an opportunity to build his own team - you can argue till the cows come home about whether he will be allowed/able to do so - but the fact remains that will be the case with any manager.

I'm not convinced with him - it would be bloody hard to be given the winless streak - but I don't think that you can make players do what they're not equipped to do. Would Pep Guardiola be able to get Hibs playing like Barca? We're Hibs, currently a below average top-flight club in a below average league and we get the players we can afford. The manager needs players he can work with to suit his football philosophy. That is where disconnect is right now - the players aren't compatible with the managers preferred system.


At no time was Butcher under any pressure at ICT, not from the fans/board/press or even the players, he was given plenty time to get it right up there, he doesn't have that time at ER and it looks like the pressure is getting to him while he manages a club that has had problems for a number of years, is the job to big for him or did he really think him and MM could just walk in and shout and make the players train harder and everything in the garden would be rosy and sitting in the top 6, whatever the plan was it ain't working which is clear to see.


Not buying that one, football players at this level should be able to play any system the manager asks the players to play, it ain't f***ing rocket science.

Twa Cairpets
07-05-2014, 12:01 PM
At no time was Butcher under any pressure at ICT, not from the fans/board/press or even the players, he was given plenty time to get it right up there, he doesn't have that time at ER and it looks like the pressure is getting to him while he manages a club that has had problems for a number of years, is the job to big for him or did he really think him and MM could just walk in and shout and make the players train harder and everything in the garden would be rosy and sitting in the top 6, whatever the plan was it ain't working which is clear to see.


Not buying that one, football players at this level should be able to play any system the manager asks the players to play, it ain't f***ing rocket science.

Most of the replies have been along your lines, so I'll use it as a general response.

I'm not saying for an instant that we shouldn't have done better, we should, but I'll make the point again which no-one has addressed, I don't think. If you parachuted the ICT squad as it was the day he left into ER, would we have had a better run of results than we have endured. The answer, surely, is yes. The reason for this is that it is a team that the manager has built who buy into him, Malpas and what they want to do and how they do it. If you inherit a workforce which doesn't have the particular skills you need to develop in the way you want you change the workforce.

As for the system, I don't agree. A lumbering centre half doesn't fit into what TB has had in the past, a plethora of defensive midfielders doesn't work. Creative players being injured hasn't helped, nor has the loss of Robertson and Hanlon. If your playing style is fast break attack , which it is with TB (not the same as hoof it long), and you don't have the players, there is a problem. You may say "well TB should change to work with the players he has", and that is valid, but it also dilutes the longer term plan for the squad.

I'm not defending TB's record, far from it, and I've always thought MM was a fud of a man, but there is still enough in the recent past of their coaching career for me to be think we should persist at least for next season.

stevejordan
07-05-2014, 12:05 PM
It's interesting that you've put this in your post sarcastically, because this is pretty much what is on evidence at ER right now is it not? His record at Hibs is the worst in his career by a long way, apart from Brentford where he was sacked after 23 games with a slightly better record.


If he was at any other club i honestly think he would have been hounded out the door by now his record is that bad i think financially we can not afford to pay him and MM Off plus the timing it would be madness to sack them a few days before our biggest game off the season.
If the worst happens and we end up in the play offs we have to stick together and try to keep us up if we can achieve that we can re group and look at the situation.

patlowe
07-05-2014, 12:12 PM
Is it not a managers job to have a level of adaptability?

Surely if the players that a manager inherits don't fit a managers preferred style then it is the responsibility of a good manager to try and find a system that is effective.

Good point.

While the 'it's Fenlon's team' line of argument works up to a point, it's surely not an unreasonable expectation that Hibs would have shown at least some sign of improvement since TB took over, instead we are staring into the abyss. It is his job to manage the players and it would appear that he has managed this group of players very badly. Look at Strachan with Scotland and Pulis at Palace - by and large not their teams but they have been able to use their management skills to get amazing results from previously under-performing groups of players. Butcher may well turn it around when he "builds his own team" but the evidence for his basic management ability so far is not looking great.

I'm still willing to give him a chance though. There's nothing else for it really.

KeithTheHibby
07-05-2014, 12:20 PM
For those who want butcher sacked who do you suggest we bring in? Mmm? Mmmm?

Wakeyhibee
07-05-2014, 12:28 PM
For those who want butcher sacked who do you suggest we bring in? Mmm? Mmmm?

If Rod's involved it doesn't matter who comes in.

Onion
07-05-2014, 12:30 PM
For those who want butcher sacked who do you suggest we bring in? Mmm? Mmmm?

We don't get paid to find solutions, we pay others very well to do that for us. First thing is to get shot of Petrie, literally. If we get beat Sat, we could put Petrie into a canon and fire him right out of the ****ing stadium. Entertaining AND effective.:cb

sesoim
07-05-2014, 01:08 PM
I have been shocked at how badly Butcher has done so far, and how much sh*te he talks, but he proved he can do a great job at Inverness, and even if we do get relegated, I think he will get us going again. Potentially as many as 20 players could leave in the summer, which will mean a genuine clean slate.

BUT, he'll have to achieve a hell of a lot (and quickly) to make up for getting us relegated, even if Petrie and all his previous appointments started this off. A bad first few months next season and I don't think Butcher will ever be able to get the fans back on his side.

Lago
07-05-2014, 01:14 PM
Not buying that. I don't want him out before Saturday but I was there last night and it was tactically inept and the players are scared and he clearly is doing nothing useful to motivate them.

The 'he needs his own players' mantra is becoming pitiful. Pat Fenlon got more out of these players than Butcher has. Any manager should be able to at least keep up the same standard and hopefully improve them. He has made an average team utterly mediocre by his inability to manage the resources he inherited.
Rubbish, Fenlon's football was described on here by many, many people as eye bleeding awful. He did a was allowed to do a funner when he should have been sacked after the notorious 5-1 game.

Nutmegged
07-05-2014, 01:27 PM
I wrote this earlier and think it probably best fits into this thread


1. We simply can't afford to continually pay-off a manager and all his backroom staff
2. Constant turnover of managers has never really proven to bring success to clubs (apart from maybe Chelsea ;))
3. Butcher as much as I don't rate him ticks a lot of the boxes we wanted ticked before he signed
4. We need stability and a long term plan


Whether I like El Tel or not it irrelevant here, I ultimately want Hibs to succeed so if Butcher turns it around I'll be ecstatic, we've looked at how he done things at Inverness, it took him months to find his feet there too, they even got relegated, long term though he left them a far superior team than he found them, I'm not saying we should go down to get better but I think taking one step back to make 3/4 steps forward isn't necessarily a bad thing.*

Hibs have been desperate for years now, ever since the Summer of 2010 infact, I think a lot of people, more so outsiders think that because Hibs have so much going for them in terms of fanbase and Infrastructure that it's an easier job to turn us around than it actually is.

People look to Aberdeen as the blue print, maybe they should but circumstances were/are different, Derek McInnes had the luxury of having so many players out of contract so soon after taking over, he was able to stamp his authority ASAP, he also had the Summer transfer window almost immediately on his horizon.*

With Butcher, while we may have a good few players out of contract in the Summer, he couldn't alienate them all back in November, there was also 6 months ahead of him before his first Summer transfer window and there's a greater opportunity for a negative attitude to spread amongst the squad of players.

Like I say, he's not my choice of manager but he has proven in our own League that he is capable of building a team that can challenge for Europe and Cups, I think we may as well give him a proper opportunity to see if he can do the same at Hibernian before we hit the reset button yet again.

eggbamyasi
07-05-2014, 01:30 PM
They're Pat Fenlons players. He left because he'd "taken the team as far is it could go". With this team he got us beat twice from Hearts and a 9-0 aggregate defeat. There were protests to get rid of him! Where did the oh so wonderful Pat finish when he took over? 11th!


Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

Agree with both of you .
I also think we would be in exact same situation if not worse had fenlon stayed .
Come on to **** please get a win on sat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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hibsbollah
07-05-2014, 01:31 PM
At ICT, he took four years to build a team to get to a position where they consistently did better than Hibs.

I, for one, thought ICT were a good team to watch when they came to ER - good fast break attacks, with players bought to suit the system that Butcher believes in. If nothing else, if you could transport the entire ICT team to ER tomorrow, it would surely be likely that they would perform to the same or similar level as Butcher had them at ICT - this suggests to me he is a good coach if he gets players that fit into his system. For whatever reason, the players here now are legacies, and he's trying to fit very square pegs into very round holes, for the most part.

To get rid today would to me be insane - relegation would be a disaster, but going into the (hopefully) final game without a manager would be ludicrous.

He must be given an opportunity to build his own team - you can argue till the cows come home about whether he will be allowed/able to do so - but the fact remains that will be the case with any manager.

I'm not convinced with him - it would be bloody hard to be given the winless streak - but I don't think that you can make players do what they're not equipped to do. Would Pep Guardiola be able to get Hibs playing like Barca? We're Hibs, currently a below average top-flight club in a below average league and we get the players we can afford. The manager needs players he can work with to suit his football philosophy. That is where disconnect is right now - the players aren't compatible with the managers preferred system.

It seems to make very little difference who the manager is, so im tempted to agree with you.

The_Horde
07-05-2014, 01:37 PM
I would put some of what you say another way. The team comprises of **** players signed by a **** manager for a team that Butcher happens to manage now. He's tried switching it about on numerous occasions, including playing 4-4-2 and it just hasn't worked. Collins hasn't scored for months and isn't very good anyway, Cummings hasn't scored at all and Heffernan is injured, so the system has to change again to allow midfielders a better chance to score, although the only one in recent months that's looked like doing that is young Stanton. It's fair to say that Collins wouldn't be playing if Heffernan was fit. Our best midfielder is now injured too. The 3 players brought in are loan deals who will bugger off back to wherever they came from in a week or two. Haynes was probably brought in because of the Ipswich connection and he had a good goal scoring record there before being loaned out to other clubs, and the other two belong to premiership clubs, so on the face of it they looked like good loan deals. It hasn't worked out, but I certainly wouldn't be judging Butcher on that.

You've forgotten the dismal defence he left us with.

No effective right back. A captain who has spent a season and a bit injured. A right back who I think I seen play about 10 times before he spent 2 seasons crocked. An ageing centre back carried by Paul Hanlon (injured) all season and the only real back up being an ageing player/coach and wee Lewis. Don't get me started on McGivern.

Dreadful stuff from pat.

The defence, without Paul Hanlon, Is just not SPFL standard and that's what has dragged us down to where we are, Combined with the lack of creativity he blessed us with and counting on the likes of Rowan Vine, James Collins, Heffernan (how many times injured?) Caldwell and Handling to create us chances.

Let's not forget he hardly used Cummings (probably our best option) and didn't even give sammy a sniff. And then there's Cairney.. Who he didn't even give a game to (and without his assists where would we be?)

Let's not kid ourselves on. Pat's team couldn't score in a brothel and we'd be in the same position with him still here. That's why he walked.

Keith_M
07-05-2014, 01:39 PM
We've been calling for the head of every manager since Collins left and look where we are now. If Butcher leaves, what makes anybody think we'll finally get somebody better?

That's not a defence of Butcher, or any previous manager, it's just that I can't see how repeating the same same thing yet again is suddenly going to turn out any different this time.

hibsbollah
07-05-2014, 01:47 PM
We've been calling for the head of every manager since Collins left and look where we are now. If Butcher leaves, what makes anybody think we'll finally get somebody better?

That's not a defence of Butcher, or any previous manager, it's just that I can't see how repeating the same same thing yet again is suddenly going to turn out any different this time.

Personally I would be ecstatic if the impossible happened and John Collins came back as manager. However, there was a stubborn minority of Hibs fans that never took to him, and the very idea would be ridiculed because of his signing of Makalambay and O'Brien and playing Kevin Mccann at centre half, and all the positives he brought would get ignored.

Which just shows what a job Butcher will have to win us over.

Hibercelona
07-05-2014, 01:49 PM
We've been calling for the head of every manager since Collins left and look where we are now. If Butcher leaves, what makes anybody think we'll finally get somebody better?

That's not a defence of Butcher, or any previous manager, it's just that I can't see how repeating the same same thing yet again is suddenly going to turn out any different this time.

This.

I give people a headache with this line, but "clearly there are problems that go beyond managerial level".

Simply changing the managerial team over and over again, will not fix our problems.

Lester B
07-05-2014, 02:05 PM
Rubbish, Fenlon's football was described on here by many, many people as eye bleeding awful. He did a was allowed to do a funner when he should have been sacked after the notorious 5-1 game.

As I said earlier. I am not defending Fenlon. The football was terrible but we were not in absolute freefall as we are now. I don't want Fenlon back and I'm glad he left. Clear? What I am saying is that Butcher has made a bad team worse.

I would also answer your second sentence if I had a clue what it means.

The_Horde
07-05-2014, 02:22 PM
As I said earlier. I am not defending Fenlon. The football was terrible but we were not in absolute freefall as we are now. I don't want Fenlon back and I'm glad he left. Clear? What I am saying is that Butcher has made a bad team worse.

I would also answer your second sentence if I had a clue what it means.

The way I see it. He made a bad team, who weren't following managers instructions, go on a 5 game run before they resorted back to type.

We weren't scoring under pat and were conceding goals. Just as we are now.

Lester B
07-05-2014, 02:39 PM
;3998980']The way I see it. He made a bad team, who weren't following managers instructions, go on a 5 game run before they resorted back to type.

We weren't scoring under pat and were conceding goals. Just as we are now.

As I've said over and over; Isn't it his job to make them listen. To find a way of making it work. That is what a good manager does

The_Horde
07-05-2014, 02:46 PM
As I've said over and over; Isn't it his job to make them listen. To find a way of making it work. That is what a good manager does

Then what is the job of a football player?

leggeto
07-05-2014, 02:47 PM
As I've said over and over; Isn't it his job to make them listen. To find a way of making it work. That is what a good manager does

I honestly think sir Alex couldn't do any better,its the players who need to take responsibility as soon as they hit the pitch,all they need to do is will their individual battles and it will happen

Speedway
07-05-2014, 03:00 PM
Multi-Quote Heaven!!



You can do better than that and hyperbole looks desperate. No one appointed in living memory was touted as a tactical genius. Butcher had a decent team at ICT and was regarded by almost all on here as someone who would sort out under achievers and motivate them all. He has singularly failed at that and the proof was there for all to see in Dingwall last night.

No I can't. I did great on every messageboard ever until I came to .net. You were all begging me to join and sort you bunch of underachieving keyboard plums out. Well you're not listening to me or my predecessor and now I've lost the .net dressing room and am intellectually desperate. Sack Speedway the useless prick!!

Speedway out, polarised opinion at the expense of context in.



It's interesting that you've put this in your post sarcastically, because this is pretty much what is on evidence at ER right now is it not? His record at Hibs is the worst in his career by a long way, apart from Brentford where he was sacked after 23 games with a slightly better record.

And yet it happens to every manager at Hibs since Mowbray. Doesn't that strike you as unusual and potentially suspicious that it might not be the manager at fault.


;3998650']Sitting mid table very early in the season with the likes of Rowan Vine in our side. Wow.

Fenlon has said he walked out because the players weren't listening him. This would have happened anyway.

That's a key point in this discussion for me. We have no idea what would have happened if Fenlon had stayed. The signs weren't good. What would have happened under any change of manager?


Isn't it Butcher's job to get them to listen to him? Or at least say something worth listening to??

How do you know he's not?

Heedersnvolleys
07-05-2014, 03:12 PM
Most of the replies have been along your lines, so I'll use it as a general response.

I'm not saying for an instant that we shouldn't have done better, we should, but I'll make the point again which no-one has addressed, I don't think. If you parachuted the ICT squad as it was the day he left into ER, would we have had a better run of results than we have endured. The answer, surely, is yes. The reason for this is that it is a team that the manager has built who buy into him, Malpas and what they want to do and how they do it. If you inherit a workforce which doesn't have the particular skills you need to develop in the way you want you change the workforce.

As for the system, I don't agree. A lumbering centre half doesn't fit into what TB has had in the past, a plethora of defensive midfielders doesn't work. Creative players being injured hasn't helped, nor has the loss of Robertson and Hanlon. If your playing style is fast break attack , which it is with TB (not the same as hoof it long), and you don't have the players, there is a problem. You may say "well TB should change to work with the players he has", and that is valid, but it also dilutes the longer term plan for the squad.

I'm not defending TB's record, far from it, and I've always thought MM was a fud of a man, but there is still enough in the recent past of their coaching career for me to be think we should persist at least for next season.

I agree with you to a certain extent but he knew that he is not in a position to change the whole "workforce" in one swoop so any decent manager in any line if business adapts to what he has got and gets the best out of what he has at his disposal. Also the one chance he has had to get players that seem to fit his perceived style, they can't even get a game. There also comes a time when you sacrifice the long term plan for survival and that should have happened before now. For me if we go down it due to TB & MM's arrogance more than there coaching or lack of coaching ability.

HibsMax
07-05-2014, 03:35 PM
As I've said over and over; Isn't it his job to make them listen. To find a way of making it work. That is what a good manager does
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I think that analogy is very fitting here. (Butcher being the leader and the players being the horses).

Over the years I've read about how such-and-such a manager should be able to make the players do things. I don't think that applies all the time. It all depends on the players and, most importantly since this is a money game, what the same players have to lose. If players don't actually care about playing for Hibs (maybe they never did, maybe they don't like the manager, maybe they think their tenure is coming to an end, etc) then it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, to motivate them. Threatening a player with losing his job is an empty threat if the player doesn't care.

New managers usually need time to be effective. The reverse is not always true i.e., giving a manager more time doesn't necessarily mean he will get better, so even though "giving time" has not worked in the past doesn't mean you scrap that idea and fire up the revolving door.

I don't know what the solution is. By process of elimination the only thing left to change is the board / ownership.

For some reason or other "something" happens when players come to Easter Road. They seem to become difficult to train and motivate. The whole thing baffles me.

HFC 0-7
07-05-2014, 03:58 PM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

i agree with what you are trying to say, but with Mcleish you could see that there was an improvement when h came in with the players at his disposal. The issue many have with butcher is that there doesn't seem to have been any improvement, tactically there have been question marks and the constant shuffling of team is an issue.

Personally i I would stick with butcher as I still think he is a good manager, he made a massive mistake at hibs when he announced that players don't have a future, doing that was always a risk and that his Ben his issue ever since. Peole are questioning whether he has an eye for a player because of who he brought in during the January transfer window, personally I think the January window is rubbish to do business in unless you have cash to burn, we don't so we ended up with 3 players who haven't done anything.

blackpoolhibs
07-05-2014, 04:29 PM
If someone asked Butcher for a penny for his thoughts, my advice to him would be to sell.

greenlex
07-05-2014, 05:42 PM
I despair ? I really do.

Alfred E Newman
07-05-2014, 05:53 PM
i agree with what you are trying to say, but with Mcleish you could see that there was an improvement when h came in with the players at his disposal. The issue many have with butcher is that there doesn't seem to have been any improvement, tactically there have been question marks and the constant shuffling of team is an issue.

Personally i I would stick with butcher as I still think he is a good manager, he made a massive mistake at hibs when he announced that players don't have a future, doing that was always a risk and that his Ben his issue ever since. Peole are questioning whether he has an eye for a player because of who he brought in during the January transfer window, personally I think the January window is rubbish to do business in unless you have cash to burn, we don't so we ended up with 3 players who haven't done anything.

We will certainly be burning plenty cash if we go down.

RedHibby
07-05-2014, 06:00 PM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

:top marks

TornadoHibby
07-05-2014, 06:18 PM
;3998650']Sitting mid table very early in the season with the likes of Rowan Vine in our side. Wow.

Fenlon has said he walked out because the players weren't listening him. This would have happened anyway.




Early in the season, we were 6th at the turn of the year which was half a season. 8 points in 18 games since then.

We were on 28 points after 19 games, which if we had continued that form would see us end the season on 56 points and finish about 4th or 5th in the table.

We should never have been in this situation.


I think this is the very point at issue right now and why TB and MM have failed to deliver what could reasonably have been expected of them during their time at the club this season!

Instead, we are on the verge of getting relegated to a league which will have more competition to get out of it to the SPFL than ever before and where we will find it difficult to attract the proper class of player with bottle, fight and ability required to get out of the league over a longer period than one season most likely!

Here's a thought if you bear with me for a moment?

Maybe TB and MM wanted to reprise their act at ICT which everyone, who admires them as "competent" football club managers when that is. at best, questionable, continually reminds us on here of the "magnitude" of that act!?

Surely not!?

What, get Hibs relegated so that they can repeat the ICT "project"?

Nah, never!

Well they don't have another sizeable project success that they can repeat do they??

They have just (about) failed to do what should have been well within the grasp of any competent football club management team this season of all seasons IMO!

Hopefully, we beat Killie at the week-end and this horrible period of uncertainty is over at least until next season!

Hibrandenburg
07-05-2014, 06:28 PM
This.

I give people a headache with this line, but "clearly there are problems that go beyond managerial level".
@
Simply changing the managerial team over and over again, will not fix our problems.

I'd go further, it's caused the problems.

Callum_62
08-05-2014, 03:15 AM
Good point.

While the 'it's Fenlon's team' line of argument works up to a point, it's surely not an unreasonable expectation that Hibs would have shown at least some sign of improvement since TB took over,


We did get the 'new manager bounce,' right up until the 2-2 draw at Dundee UTD

That was about 2 months into his reign, and no one was complaining

HKhibby
08-05-2014, 03:51 AM
As are his tactics.

I think you might find he will walk if we were to be relegated......but then who?.....Mcleish and Mowbray are both still out of work?

Viva_Palmeiras
08-05-2014, 05:57 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

Never a truer word spoken IMO. It's all about opinion s and people pay good money .... But the drip drip effect of fear and self loathing is ultimately self-defeating.

A female cyclist was interviewed yesterday talked about the Olympics and what the home support meant - she said it was massive and gave her 20-30% improvement in her performance.

Ok so we're talking different sports and an elite athlete but doesn't take a genius to see giving someone pelters isn't going to give you that home advantage.

Lets have one final push and give the team a platform to perform for the final game(s).

pontius pilate
08-05-2014, 05:58 AM
TB and MM came in and if the stories are to be beleived tokd the majority of the dressing room who PF had lost that they werent good enough and they woukd be shown the door at seasons end now if my manager told me that after I finished my contract I woukdnt be kept on I wouldnt be trying a leg thats for sure. So he has tried to role reverse and put a tiny seed in thier heads that they are good players who can lift us away from relegation. Again if that was me getting told nah mate youbare ***** im not keeping you on to then be told you could be the saviour I woukd be confused so god knows what the players are thinking. For me he shouldve come in got them onside and left all the talk on who he wanted untill we were in a good position instead he and the players have got us into this mess by very very poor management.

Matty_Jack04
08-05-2014, 06:13 AM
Is it not a managers job to have a level of adaptability?

Surely if the players that a manager inherits don't fit a managers preferred style then it is the responsibility of a good manager to try and find a system that is effective.

How many systems fit a squad with no full backs and rammed full of centre midfielders?
Fenlon built the worst squad of players I've ever seen at ER,void of any fight/passion for the club and most of all ability there was never a quick fix and fenlon got out when he saw the signs. We got butcher in to build a squad add stabilty and push us forward we should be giving him time to do this and move the impostors out before we judge him, I'm sick and tired of managers coming and going and the group of players remaining blameless they are awful football players and awful professionals to boot

lucky
08-05-2014, 06:18 AM
I'm not buying that TB man management caused the players to switch off. They are meant to be professionals, whether they get a contract at ER or elsewhere. Surely they must put in the performances to attract offers. I doubt many of our players will get a bigger club than Hibs.

TB was the choice of the majority but it does appear to have failed. I would say the style of football and his kick and rush football are the problem. Everyone can see playing hoofball to one guy up front has failed. We must try and be more positive on Saturday to give ourselves hope

Lucius Apuleius
08-05-2014, 07:49 AM
TB and MM came in and if the stories are to be beleived tokd the majority of the dressing room who PF had lost that they werent good enough and they woukd be shown the door at seasons end now if my manager told me that after I finished my contract I woukdnt be kept on I wouldnt be trying a leg thats for sure. So he has tried to role reverse and put a tiny seed in thier heads that they are good players who can lift us away from relegation. Again if that was me getting told nah mate youbare ***** im not keeping you on to then be told you could be the saviour I woukd be confused so god knows what the players are thinking. For me he shouldve rcome in got them onside and left all the talk on who he wanted untill we were in a good position instead he and the players have got us into this mess by very very poor management.

And if Butcher had said anything less publicly he would have been slaughtered on here. Thr professionalism of the players should have been sufficient to attract another team. It hasn't been.

Hibrandenburg
08-05-2014, 08:56 AM
Never a truer word spoken IMO. It's all about opinion s and people pay good money .... But the drip drip effect of fear and self loathing is ultimately self-defeating.

A female cyclist was interviewed yesterday talked about the Olympics and what the home support meant - she said it was massive and gave her 20-30% improvement in her performance.

Ok so we're talking different sports and an elite athlete but doesn't take a genius to see giving someone pelters isn't going to give you that home advantage.

Lets have one final push and give the team a platform to perform for the final game(s).

:agree: Anyone who's ever stepped into a boxing ring would confirm this. The psychological boost of encouragement cannot be underestimated, millions of parents use this every day. On the flipside, constant criticism has the opposite effect. Boo the team and you harm our chances. Fact!

Steve-O
08-05-2014, 09:00 AM
Well here's what's not weak:

Fenlon 'inspired' us to 11th after managing Calderwood's duds

McLeish 'inspired' us to relegation after taking over Duffy's duds.

Butcher could yet finish higher than either of them.

It's funny how mangers are tactical genuises until they come to ER. Then, once inside the Hibernian triangle, they forget how to play, motivate and can't remember where they put the dressing room, now that they've lost it.

**** off eh? .net has been a platform for haters for every manager we've had in the internet era bar none.

You don't know what you're doing!!

McLeish didn't take over until the February and we most definitely improved under him, we just couldn't do enough in the end. Totally different from this situation IMO.