Butchers record

[Ozyhibby]

How does it compare with previous Hibs managers? Is he the worst ever?

[Heisenberg]

How does it compare with previous Hibs managers? Is he the worst ever?

Only Le God will have a worse record in recent times I'd imagine.

[Pretty Boy]

19% win rate, 50% loss.

It's bad, worse than CC. Think Sauzee will be statistically the worst though, much as it pains me to say that.

[Hibernia&Alba]

There have been some terrifying stats posted tonight, Ozy:

17 games without a win
8 points from 54 was mentioned, or something very similar
lost 50 per cent of all matches
Several others


Very grim reading. I wasn't expecting this at all

[Sir David Gray]

Worse than Jim Duffy.

It's only marginally better than Sauzee's record, which takes some doing.

[Winston Ingram]

Worse than Jim Duffy.

It's only marginally better than Sauzee's record, which takes some doing.

It's not.

Franck
15 games Won 1 Drawn 6 lost 8.

Butcher
(last 18 games)

Won 1 drawn 5 lost 12

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Well shocking but in relation to Saturday stats don't help us.

Im in London this week so wasn't present for the latest kick in the stanes so maybe I'd feel different but I'm wondering how we're best positioned as a support ahead of Saturday.

We seem to be heaping more pressure on ourselves - we know the record speaks for itself but Im talking wider than this - scapegoating, dragging tweets up from 2 years ago. Tabloid journalists would be proud.

Do we just hope for a miracle to occur on Saturday or can we unite as a support to move away from the despondency - surely if this turns to wallowing in self loathing relegation starts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Rods time is over - let Hibstory judge his reign but let's not get the players get caught in the crossfire one final push and leave the lessons learned to Leann we simply cannot let our proud club slowly but surely sleepwalk into such positions ever again.

[Captain Trips]

Butcher's record is something of a joke. I hear let's see what he can do with own players and hope for next season. By 25 games there should be footballing evidence for a better season but all its all hope.

My only hope. He leaves.

[Nutmegged]

I'm not a fan of Butcher, never have been and doubt i ever will be but he is obviously not impressed with the quality or severe lack of the Hibs squad has and it seems like we couldn't do the deals he wanted in January.

We can't keep chopping and changing manager, I think hr needs a full season with his own Summer transfer window before we can properly judge him, I'll be the first to admit I'm not overly confident he'll get it right long term but I'm willing to give him a chance.

That said, if we go down, which I still think we wont, but if we go down the you're talking potentially 2 years out of the top tier

[TornadoHibby]

Well shocking but in relation to Saturday stats don't help us.

Im in London this week so wasn't present for the latest kick in the stanes so maybe I'd feel different but I'm wondering how we're best positioned as a support ahead of Saturday.

We seem to be heaping more pressure on ourselves - we know the record speaks for itself but Im talking wider than this - scapegoating, dragging tweets up from 2 years ago. Tabloid journalists would be proud.

Do we just hope for a miracle to occur on Saturday or can we unite as a support to move away from the despondency - surely if this turns to wallowing in self loathing relegation starts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Rods time is over - let Hibstory judge his reign but let's not get the players get caught in the crossfire one final push and leave the lessons learned to Leann we simply cannot let our proud club slowly but surely sleepwalk into such positions ever again.

I just can't see how what you propose can actually happen!

The players are "coached", "mentored" and "directed" by TB and MM and the confidence boosting oratories will be getting delivered by TB I would imagine as iit is he who is the "man management" expert I understand.

The players must believe that they can win the game and since the support has no ability to instal that belief in the players selected for Saturday's match, I am baffled as to why you think that the support can help set that positive mindset in advance of them stepping out on the pitch on Saturday.

The support can (and will in the main) encourage the players when they get the direct opportunity to do so but the basic belief in themselves must be there from the outset and it is that that I believe is seriously missing from our group of players and the team at this crucial time.

Happy to have my thoughts disproved but on recent evidence, I just don't see where the goals are coming from or who is going to reorganise the defence such that it will not concede goals on Saturday as we have suffered from this for almost the entire period of the tenure of TB and MM as the managament team!

[TornadoHibby]

I'm not a fan of Butcher, never have been and doubt i ever will be but he is obviously not impressed with the quality or severe lack of the Hibs squad has and it seems like we couldn't do the deals he wanted in January.

We can't keep chopping and changing manager, I think hr needs a full season with his own Summer transfer window before we can properly judge him, I'll be the first to admit I'm not overly confident he'll get it right long term but I'm willing to give him a chance.
That said, if we go down, which I still think we wont, but if we go down the you're talking potentially 2 years out of the top tier

Why?

[oregonhibby]

How does it compare with previous Hibs managers? Is he the worst ever?

Sorted On Non-Loss
Won Drawn Lost
McLeish 47.20% 25.20% 27.60% 100.00%
Collins 42.60% 27.80% 29.60% 100.00%
Miller 34.80% 30.90% 34.30% 100.00%
Mowbray 48.20% 14.80% 37.00% 100.00%
Pat'nen 30.60% 29.20% 40.20% 100.00%
Fenlon 35.70% 21.80% 42.50% 100.00%
Hughes 35.20% 22.20% 42.60% 100.00%
Duffy 20.80% 31.30% 47.90% 100.00%
Butcher 20.83% 29.17% 50.00% 100.00%
Sauzee 6.70% 40.00% 53.30% 100.00%

Sorted on Wins
Won Drawn Lost
Mowbray 48.20% 14.80% 37.00% 100.00%
McLeish 47.20% 25.20% 27.60% 100.00%
Collins 42.60% 27.80% 29.60% 100.00%
Fenlon 35.70% 21.80% 42.50% 100.00%
Hughes 35.20% 22.20% 42.60% 100.00%
Miller 34.80% 30.90% 34.30% 100.00%
Pat'nen 30.60% 29.20% 40.20% 100.00%
Butcher 20.83% 29.17% 50.00% 100.00%
Duffy 20.80% 31.30% 47.90% 100.00%
Sauzee 6.70% 40.00% 53.30% 100.00%

Sorted on Losses
Won Drawn Lost
Sauzee 6.70% 40.00% 53.30% 100.00%
Butcher 20.83% 29.17% 50.00% 100.00%
Duffy 20.80% 31.30% 47.90% 100.00%
Hughes 35.20% 22.20% 42.60% 100.00%
Fenlon 35.70% 21.80% 42.50% 100.00%
Pat'nen 30.60% 29.20% 40.20% 100.00%
Mowbray 48.20% 14.80% 37.00% 100.00%
Miller 34.80% 30.90% 34.30% 100.00%
Collins 42.60% 27.80% 29.60% 100.00%
McLeish 47.20% 25.20% 27.60% 100.00%

If the game is lost on Saturday he will be the second worst in recent times after Sauzee. If you take Sauzee out as an aboration, then...

[Winston Ingram]

Here's the last 15 games, based on the fact Franck only got 15 games.

I've chucked in Duffy & Franck as they are regarded as having the worst records and i've chucked in our last 2. Couldnae be arsed doing the rest.

Franck
W1 D6 L8

Terry
W1 D4 L10

Duffy
W1 D3 L11

Fenlon
W5 D3 L7

Calderwood
W3 D5 L7

[Ozyhibby]

Here's the last 15 games, based on the fact Franck only got 15 games.

I've chucked in Duffy & Franck as they are regarded as having the worst records and i've chucked in our last 2. Couldnae be arsed doing the rest.

Franck
W1 D6 L8

Terry
W1 D4 L10

Duffy
W1 D3 L11

Fenlon
W5 D3 L7

Calderwood
W3 D5 L7

It's getting harder to defend Butcher looking at those stats.
He's turned a bad team into an abysmal team.
Is there a manager anywhere who has ever recovered from those kind of figures? If not then I think we have to consider a change in the summer regardless of what happens at the weekend.

[Winston Ingram]

It's getting harder to defend Butcher looking at those stats.
He's turned a bad team into an abysmal team.
Is there a manager anywhere who has ever recovered from those kind of figures? If not then I think we have to consider a change in the summer regardless of what happens at the weekend.


It completely baffles me people defending him. His football is dire, his track record at other clubs is rotten, his track record here is on a par with our worst manager in living memory, he's about to take us down and 40% on the poll on the other thread want him in charge next season? :confused:

[Nutmegged]

Why?

A few reasons really

1. We simply can't afford to continually pay-off a manager and all his backroom staff
2. Constant turnover of managers has never really proven to bring success to clubs (apart from maybe Chelsea ;))
3. Butcher as much as I don't rate him ticks a lot of the boxes we wanted ticked before he signed
4. We need stability and a long term plan


Whether I like El Tel or not it irrelevant here, I ultimately want Hibs to succeed so if Butcher turns it around I'll be ecstatic, we've looked at how he done things at Inverness, it took him months to find his feet there too, they even got relegated, long term though he left them a far superior team than he found them, I'm not saying we should go down to get better but I think taking one step back to make 3/4 steps forward isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Hibs have been desperate for years now, ever since the Summer of 2010 infact, I think a lot of people, more so outsiders think that because Hibs have so much going for them in terms of fanbase and Infrastructure that it's an easier job to turn us around than it actually is.

People look to Aberdeen as the blue print, maybe they should but circumstances were/are different, Derek McInnes had the luxury of having so many players out of contract so soon after taking over, he was able to stamp his authority ASAP, he also had the Summer transfer window almost immediately on his horizon.

With Butcher, while we may have a good few players out of contract in the Summer, he couldn't alienate them all back in November, there was also 6 months ahead of him before his first Summer transfer window and there's a greater opportunity for a negative attitude to spread amongst the squad of players.

Like I say, he's not my choice of manager but he has proven in our own League that he is capable of building a team that can challenge for Europe and Cups, I think we may as well give him a proper opportunity to see if he can do the same at Hibernian before we hit the reset button yet again.

[The Sea-gull]

Sorted On Non-Loss
Won Drawn Lost
McLeish 47.20% 25.20% 27.60% 100.00%
Collins 42.60% 27.80% 29.60% 100.00%
Miller 34.80% 30.90% 34.30% 100.00%
Mowbray 48.20% 14.80% 37.00% 100.00%
Pat'nen 30.60% 29.20% 40.20% 100.00%
Fenlon 35.70% 21.80% 42.50% 100.00%
Hughes 35.20% 22.20% 42.60% 100.00%
Duffy 20.80% 31.30% 47.90% 100.00%
Butcher 20.83% 29.17% 50.00% 100.00%
Sauzee 6.70% 40.00% 53.30% 100.00%

Sorted on Wins
Won Drawn Lost
Mowbray 48.20% 14.80% 37.00% 100.00%
McLeish 47.20% 25.20% 27.60% 100.00%
Collins 42.60% 27.80% 29.60% 100.00%
Fenlon 35.70% 21.80% 42.50% 100.00%
Hughes 35.20% 22.20% 42.60% 100.00%
Miller 34.80% 30.90% 34.30% 100.00%
Pat'nen 30.60% 29.20% 40.20% 100.00%
Butcher 20.83% 29.17% 50.00% 100.00%
Duffy 20.80% 31.30% 47.90% 100.00%
Sauzee 6.70% 40.00% 53.30% 100.00%

Sorted on Losses
Won Drawn Lost
Sauzee 6.70% 40.00% 53.30% 100.00%
Butcher 20.83% 29.17% 50.00% 100.00%
Duffy 20.80% 31.30% 47.90% 100.00%
Hughes 35.20% 22.20% 42.60% 100.00%
Fenlon 35.70% 21.80% 42.50% 100.00%
Pat'nen 30.60% 29.20% 40.20% 100.00%
Mowbray 48.20% 14.80% 37.00% 100.00%
Miller 34.80% 30.90% 34.30% 100.00%
Collins 42.60% 27.80% 29.60% 100.00%
McLeish 47.20% 25.20% 27.60% 100.00%

If the game is lost on Saturday he will be the second worst in recent times after Sauzee. If you take Sauzee out as an aboration, then...

Calderwood's stats missing? Williamson?

[oregonhibby]

Good point!

[oregonhibby]

Clearly my mind went blank looking at the stellar statistics!

[oregonhibby]

Calderwood worse on non ls

[oregonhibby]

Sorry big fingers - CC worse on non loss and games lost but better on games won. All pretty marginal. A loss on Sat brings them equal. BW was a star performer compared to the bottom lot!

[Sir David Gray]

It's not.

Franck
15 games Won 1 Drawn 6 lost 8.

Butcher
(last 18 games)

Won 1 drawn 5 lost 12

It is when you look at overall loss percentage.

Both lost around 50% of their games.

[Winston Ingram]

It is when you look at overall loss percentage.

Both lost around 50% of their games.

Butcher has lost 2/3's of the games he's been in charge. Nothing to do with him though. He needs more time.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

Butcher has lost 2/3's of the games he's been in charge. Nothing to do with him though. He needs more time.

Thought you said "The only chance we have of survival is if he goes now". Or something very similar??

[stevejordan]

Thank God it is a home game this weekend as we have not won an away game this year having said that we have only one one home game since the 2nd of January when we beat the yams his record this year is a shocker.
I Do not understand this as i honestly thought it was a cracking appointment when he first arrived :confused:

[Nutmegged]

I think his big mistake was going in all guns blazing, thats alright doing that in April when the end of the season is near and the Summer window is open and those players are likely going to be out of contract but to do it in November then that just brings out resentment, especially whe you have 6/7 months to run before players are out of contract.

I think a lot of players chucked it in because of Butcher, his man management seems to be a nightmare.

[yeezus.]

Butcher's win rate is 19% - played 26: Win 5, Draw 8, Loss 13

[woodyloon]

TB record Is dreadful.

He has taken a team that was dull to watch to the brink of Championship football. When Fenlon walked or was pushed I was happy with TB appointment. How wrong could I be, he started well so most people would think he would keep the same team apart from a few changes now and again.

No what does TB do he makes 4 or 5 changes, tries this tries that, ends up looking for IMO a problem that wasn't there in the first, yes we were always going to be up and down but he ending up not knowing what his best 11 was.

We played United off the pitch at Tannadice, good movement, a mixture of get the ball down and pass and the long ball, yes we lost two late goals but it looked promising, how can a manager go from that to this, we are on a run were most managers would be sacked.

I really can't see where our next win will come, we are leaking goals, we are at least creating chances now but don't have anyone on a regular bases to take a goal, we have for the past few weeks only needed one more win, even a point could of put in is good position with our goal difference compared with Killie.

A good manager would of seen what he was trying do wasn't working and they would of went back to what was and waited till next season to mould his team into the way he wants a team to play. It wasn't difficult, all he had to when he came here was get a few players in during the transfer window, not like what happened 3 loan signings on the last day, and keep the team doing what they had been doing when he first took over. I can't believe we have went from a possible top six to this.

[Onion]

Here's the last 15 games, based on the fact Franck only got 15 games.

I've chucked in Duffy & Franck as they are regarded as having the worst records and i've chucked in our last 2. Couldnae be arsed doing the rest.

Franck
W1 D6 L8

Terry
W1 D4 L10

Duffy
W1 D3 L11

Fenlon
W5 D3 L7

Calderwood
W3 D5 L7

And Terry has had no Rangers, the worst Hearts team in 30 years and his last 4 have been against bottom 6 teams. I really never thought I'd ever see a worse manager at Hibs than Duffy. He was truly dreadful. Then Calderwood came along. But Butcher is managing somehow to eclipse them all with one of the worst Hibs teams in history.

[Sir David Gray]

Butcher has lost 2/3's of the games he's been in charge. Nothing to do with him though. He needs more time.

Butcher has lost 13 of his 26 games in charge which is 50%.

Sauzee lost 8 of his 15 games in charge which is 53%.

[dmc1875]

I want to support Butcher and I do buy into the fact he has been left with a team that is completely different to what he would assemble. However, he has had since November to put a system in place that will fit with the current group of players and has failed massively.

His tactics are atrocious, the way he sets the team up is appauling and the 4-3-2-1 formation that he refuses to budge from is pure insanity. Any manager, when he sees something is clearly not working week after week, would change it. Not just change the entire team around and hope for the best.

There is no doubt in my mind we would not be in this position if Fenlon was still here. That is not to highlight I believe he should be, but to highlight how we have managed to plummet to new depths of despair under Butcher.

I cant defend him and cannot see how anyone can anymore. He comes across as a man lost in press conferences and after match interviews, talks rubbish and has shown nothing in the last six months to make me believe he will set the team up for a win on Saturday.

[stevejordan]

And Terry has had no Rangers, the worst Hearts team in 30 years and his last 4 have been against bottom 6 teams. I really never thought I'd ever see a worse manager at Hibs than Duffy. He was truly dreadful. Then Calderwood came along. But Butcher is managing somehow to eclipse them all with one of the worst Hibs teams in history.

This run of dreadful results seems to be a mirror of Jim Duffys results just before he was fired i did predict somewhere on here that we would loose our 1st 2 games post split but i had us down for a win v Partick and a draw v County 4 points have turned into only 1 point i think we need results to go our way tonight as i can see us drawing v Killie which i hope is enough to keep us safe.

[Spike Mandela]

Butcher has never been an instant success at any club he has went to. At his two previous Scottish clubs Motherwell finished bottom of the league but were saved by Falkirk not having a suitable stadium then at ICT they got relegated.

It would appear he struggles to turn around a poorly performing set of players but on the other hand he can build a good team in his own image from scratch if he gets the time and the resources.

[CRAZYHIBBY]

Didnt we win 5 games in a row under calderwood

[dmc1875]

Didnt we win 5 games in a row under calderwood

:agree:

[lyonhibs]

Disregarding statistical vagaries, taking into account the nick that Hearts and Rangers find themselves in at the moment vs. a couple of years ago and further back, Butcher's record as Hibs manager is the worst in my lifetime.

Certainly the worst prolonged run of *****ness we've been on, turning in the most tactically inept performances with some of the least professional players in a Hibs squad ever.

But, it's ok, he needs more time...................

[Winston Ingram]

Thought you said "The only chance we have of survival is if he goes now". Or something very similar??

My last post was sarcastic.

[TornadoHibby]

Butcher has never been an instant success at any club he has went to. At his two previous Scottish clubs Motherwell finished bottom of the league but were saved by Falkirk not having a suitable stadium then at ICT they got relegated.

It would appear he struggles to turn around a poorly performing set of players but on the other hand he can build a good team in his own image from scratch if he gets the time and the resources.

If we have to wait several years to wait until he "turns it around" then I suspect that a good number of loyal and long serving fans will be lost to the weekly crowd numbers!

[hibbymick]

Its maybe time for Butcher to get the buns oot again.................and I don't mean the ones in the back of his trousers.:cb

[Winston Ingram]

If we have to wait several years to wait until he "turns it around" then I suspect that a good number of loyal and long serving fans will be lost to the weekly crowd numbers!

if we're patient we might even reach 4th in 4 yrs time

[stevejordan]

:agree:

we beat huns 3-0 at Ibrox

[HibeeHutch]

I think I heard Graham Spiers say when Butcher came on board that he thought he would get it spectacularly right or spectacularly wrong. Let's hope if we get a win on Saturday that it will be the latter (given time and resources to build his own squad).

[IberianHibernian]

Didnt we win 5 games in a row under calderwoodCC has always been written off here as the worst manager we`ve ever had ( except Duffy perhaps ) and that has somehow stuck but the 5 wins in a row is unusual with any team bar Celtic in our league . He was probably a bad appointment , never seemed enthusiastic about the job and should have been kicked out in summer but there were signs of progress ( the 5 wins ) and some of his loan signings were good and I know we nearly signed some other good players when he was with us . When you think of flak CC , Fenlon and others took ( and still do ) the present managerisl trio appointed because of their vast experience and knowledge of our league have had an easy time .

[TornadoHibby]

if we're patient we might even reach 4th in 4 yrs time

Expecting folk who have supported the last 5 or 6 years rubbish to wait another 4 years for a 4th place finish is a big ask in terms of those fans who have other things to entertain them on the now random match days and ko times IMO! :agree:

There are loads of loyal long standing ST holders and fans who have still not renewed for next season and who are waiting to see where we end up in terms of which league we will be playing in next year before addressing the question of renewing IMO! :agree:

Seats can be renewed up til the start of June I (as one such person) have been told and many people are more than aware of this!

[portycabbage]

This run of dreadful results seems to be a mirror of Jim Duffys results just before he was fired i did predict somewhere on here that we would loose our 1st 2 games post split but i had us down for a win v Partick and a draw v County 4 points have turned into only 1 point i think we need results to go our way tonight as i can see us drawing v Killie which i hope is enough to keep us safe.

Was looking at the stats and Duffy had a run of one win in 19 in all games leading up to the sack. Also, if we don't win v Killie or either play-off game it equals the worst run without a win in our history (15 games, which has happened twice post-war, both in the seasons we went down). Not that we need more negative omens but there it is.

http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/club_result_streaks_filtered.php?opposition=0&from=128&to=143&competition=0&venue=0&update=Update

Will still be there on Saturday (and beyond if neccesary) and have renewed for next season.