Conservative Ideology

[sauzee_4]

How would you summarise it, and what are the arguments for and against it?

Think I might get some interesting answers here so should make for a good discussion :D

[allmodcons]

How would you summarise it, and what are the arguments for and against it?

Think I might get some interesting answers here so should make for a good discussion :D

By defintion it is "a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, preferring gradual development to abrupt change. Specifically, lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defence and individual financial responsibility for personal needs".

For me, however, Conservatism amounts to 3 words - Trickle Down Ecomonics.

We make the wealthier more wealthy and eventually those not so well off will benefit from the wealth creation at the top.

Problem is it doesn't work, the wealthy create more wealth and keep it for themselves thereby explaining why the gap between the richest and poorest in our society continues to grow year on year.

The current austerity measures of the ConLib administration are a good case in point. We have food banks popping up all over the country whilst those at the 'top end' (i.e. - individuals and corporations) are sitting on a pile of cash with which they know not what to do. This in turns leads to them 'playing' with their money in risky and, as we have seen in recent times, toxic investments.

[sauzee_4]

Do you think there was an alternative to the Austerity measures, and if so what were they?

(Playing devil's advocate here I'm not a conservative supporter)

[yeezus.]

Do you think there was an alternative to the Austerity measures, and if so what were they?

(Playing devil's advocate here I'm not a conservative supporter)

To be fair I'm not a conservative either but I'm yet to hear much of an alternative to austerity. I've heard some people say they would prefer more emphasis on tax rises but I've also spoken to people in the SSP who say the "deficit will deal with itself"... :rolleyes:

[hibby rae]

To be fair I'm not a conservative either but I'm yet to hear much of an alternative to austerity. I've heard some people say they would prefer more emphasis on tax rises but I've also spoken to people in the SSP who say the "deficit will deal with itself"... :rolleyes:

I'm not an economist but Keynesian economics was used to great effect towards the end of the Depression. On a side note, Richard Nixon horrified a lot of US conservatives when he described himself as 'Keynesian'.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

[oregonhibby]

Probably meant to say Dickensian! Interesting character was tricky. Great analyst after he left office.

[hibby rae]

Probably meant to say Dickensian! Interesting character was tricky. Great analyst after he left office.

Yeah I agree, really interesting. During his presidency there were a lot of liberal policies. But to Nixon, ideology was second to winning (hence Watergate!). I doubt he would receive a Republican nomination these days.

[oregonhibby]

He actually displayed many of the traits of a Stalanist!

I imagine he would be one of the Survivalists he is so far right!

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm thinking of building one, and ideally it will be on the south facing gable of my house. :greengrin

[Jack]

The Torys are there to line their own the pockets of their mates.

To do this they hoodwink enough folk who aspire to, but never attain. mate status.

The banking crisis is a wonderful example of this. Who did the government turn to to sort the mess out with our money and at the same time make billions in commission? That would be their mates the bankers. And who made millions again as a wee bonus and we were short changed when the Royal Mail was sold off?

How many bankers in this country were jailed for playing fast and loose with our money?

Compare that to other countries.

[sauzee_4]

The Torys are there to line their own the pockets of their mates.

To do this they hoodwink enough folk who aspire to, but never attain. mate status.

The banking crisis is a wonderful example of this. Who did the government turn to to sort the mess out with our money and at the same time make billions in commission? That would be their mates the bankers. And who made millions again as a wee bonus and we were short changed when the Royal Mail was sold off?

How many bankers in this country were jailed for playing fast and loose with our money?

Compare that to other countries.

So what sorts of things would Conservative voters say to justify their views?

Are there any pro-conservative arguments which you think have merit?

[Jack]

So what sorts of things would Conservative voters say to justify their views?

Are there any pro-conservative arguments which you think have merit?

I've worked with MPs and MSPs from Tory, Labour, Libdem and SNP over the years.

The Tory lot were the most arrogant bunch of b@$?@&€$ I have ever come across and so were their friends who never got a full sentence in without name dropping and attempting to exert pressure without giving a $#! £ whether it was appropriate or not.

So to answer your question the voters would say the Tory MP uses his power to get what I want. No matter if its right or wrong.

For me their decent policies, immigration, justice etc just go too far. Their policies on, for example the NHS, is a crime against humanity ... well at least the people of England. For that alone they should be a proscribed organisation :-)

[yeezus.]

So what sorts of things would Conservative voters say to justify their views?

Are there any pro-conservative arguments which you think have merit?

There's quite a few Tories in Stranraer, when talking to them I always hear "we have reduced the deficit by a third, we are cutting red tape" etc. etc.

I am a bit disappointed that those who oppose deficit reduction plans haven't come up with an alternative.

[yeezus.]

I've worked with MPs and MSPs from Tory, Labour, Libdem and SNP over the years.

The Tory lot were the most arrogant bunch of b@$?@&€$ I have ever come across and so were their friends who never got a full sentence in without name dropping and attempting to exert pressure without giving a $#! £ whether it was appropriate or not.

So to answer your question the voters would say the Tory MP uses his power to get what I want. No matter if its right or wrong.

For me their decent policies, immigration, justice etc just go too far. Their policies on, for example the NHS, is a crime against humanity ... well at least the people of England. For that alone they should be a proscribed organisation :-)

What crimes against the NHS? I thought the health budget was being protected? :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

What crimes against the NHS? I thought the health budget was being protected? :greengrin


The NHS in Scotland is seperate from the NHS that the Tories are hell bent on getting rid off. Thank EFF

[JeMeSouviens]

There's quite a few Tories in Stranraer, when talking to them I always hear "we have reduced the deficit by a third, we are cutting red tape" etc. etc.

I am a bit disappointed that those who oppose deficit reduction plans haven't come up with an alternative.

Actually if you look at the numbers, Osbourne quietly came up with his own alternative. The initial austerity drive was softened a large amount from 2012. Result: the deficit hasn't fallen as fast as they trumpeted but the economy is now growing again.

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/osbornes-plan-b.html

[RyeSloan]

All the talk of austerity makes me laugh....our government is still spending about £100bn p.a than it receives and our total debt is about £1trn.

As for the NHS...I think it's foolish to think we can continue to increase the percentage of GDP spent on healthcare without careful consideration of how that money is spent. In 1960 health and social care spending was about 3.5% of GDP, now it's close to 8.5%...the pressure upwards seems relentless but yet so does the clamour to just keep on doing what we are doing. I'm not an advocate of one specific approach but each and every time I am exposed to the NHS I see duplication, inefficiency and waste as well as a wide range of care levels. There needs to be a serious discussion about how that is improved, sadly that discussion always seems to be politicised so I have little faith in it ever taking place in a sensible environment.

[Jack]

All the talk of austerity makes me laugh....our government is still spending about £100bn p.a than it receives and our total debt is about £1trn.

As for the NHS...I think it's foolish to think we can continue to increase the percentage of GDP spent on healthcare without careful consideration of how that money is spent. In 1960 health and social care spending was about 3.5% of GDP, now it's close to 8.5%...the pressure upwards seems relentless but yet so does the clamour to just keep on doing what we are doing. I'm not an advocate of one specific approach but each and every time I am exposed to the NHS I see duplication, inefficiency and waste as well as a wide range of care levels. There needs to be a serious discussion about how that is improved, sadly that discussion always seems to be politicised so I have little faith in it ever taking place in a sensible environment.

Depends who you believe ...

"An analysis of figures from the Office of Budget Responsibility by the Nuffield Trust think-tank reveals that spending is set to go down from 6.5% of GDP in 2012-13 to 6.2% in 2015-16.

Your figures were from the [right wing] Kings Fund.

[RyeSloan]

Depends who you believe ... "An analysis of figures from the Office of Budget Responsibility by the Nuffield Trust think-tank reveals that spending is set to go down from 6.5% of GDP in 2012-13 to 6.2% in 2015-16. Your figures were from the Kings Fund.

Fair point. Your figures would suggest the amount being spent will stay about static as I assume the drop is due to a growing GDP. Even that will prob be a political hot potato however.

Doesn't answer the question of how and where that money is spent, although I admit I was hardly proffering any concrete suggestions or ideology on that front!

[Holmesdale Hibs]

The Torys are there to line their own the pockets of their mates.

Just the Tories? MPs from all political parties were caught up in the expenses scandal and its difficult to say any one party is worse than any other





To do this they hoodwink enough folk who aspire to, but never attain. mate status.

The banking crisis is a wonderful example of this. Who did the government turn to to sort the mess out with our money and at the same time make billions in commission? That would be their mates the bankers. And who made millions again as a wee bonus and we were short changed when the Royal Mail was sold off?

How many bankers in this country were jailed for playing fast and loose with our money?

Compare that to other countries.

Labour were in charge when the banking crisis kicked off and Gordon Brown turned to the bankers to fix it. Not sure where the 'billions in commission' comes from but if its true I don't see how you can blame that on the Tories.

As for no bankers being jailed - I'm not saying I agree with it or otherwise but again, how is that the fault of the tories?

Regarding the Royal Mail sale, there was a limit on the amount of stock an individual could buy (£750 IIRC), which the tories enforced to make sure the public benefited from the sale. Not that this was their intention, but by undervaluing it, the ordinary members of the public that invested in the shares made a tidy profit.

I'm not saying the tories are perfect, far from it, I just don't see the point in slagging them off just because they're tories.

[sauzee_4]

What do people think of this guy's views on deficit reduction?

http://idontgetpolitics.co.uk/howelse

[yeezus.]

What do people think of this guy's views on deficit reduction?

http://idontgetpolitics.co.uk/howelse

"and investing..." I don't see how spending more would help to be honest.

[RyeSloan]

What do people think of this guy's views on deficit reduction? http://idontgetpolitics.co.uk/howelse

I love the concept of spending more, taxing (anyone else but me) more and still reducing a deficit that's not really that big an issue.

[HKhibby]

There's quite a few Tories in Stranraer, when talking to them I always hear "we have reduced the deficit by a third, we are cutting red tape" etc. etc.

I am a bit disappointed that those who oppose deficit reduction plans haven't come up with an alternative.

And they never can or will, because their ideology is to spend and keep spending tax payers money ....but when it runs out what do they do? Still spend with money they do not have or just hyke some taxes up to try and pay for things......the last labour government proved that

[HKhibby]

All the talk of austerity makes me laugh....our government is still spending about £100bn p.a than it receives and our total debt is about £1trn.

As for the NHS...I think it's foolish to think we can continue to increase the percentage of GDP spent on healthcare without careful consideration of how that money is spent. In 1960 health and social care spending was about 3.5% of GDP, now it's close to 8.5%...the pressure upwards seems relentless but yet so does the clamour to just keep on doing what we are doing. I'm not an advocate of one specific approach but each and every time I am exposed to the NHS I see duplication, inefficiency and waste as well as a wide range of care levels. There needs to be a serious discussion about how that is improved, sadly that discussion always seems to be politicised so I have little faith in it ever taking place in a sensible environment.

Your view about the NHS is very good, not sure about the Scottish NHS as i have not lived their for a very long time now, as for the rest of the UK i can comment as i was back there a few years ago for a couple of years, There is no quick fix for public healthcare systems like the NHS, very good in principle, but been proven in modern times for lots of different reasons that in its present form cannot work, its needs some sort of finance by other means.
The piece about GDP is good as wel, people generally live longer nowadays as they did in say 1960, costs of medicines etc... Are far higher, then you have a biggar population as well....including mass uncontrolled immigration from the EU, al that puts even more pressure on the resources, not just NHS, but Education and Transport are two good other examples as well.
Going back to the healthcare thing, yes there is massive duplication, resourcefull personnel and management waste, and red tape to cross before antone can get anything done.
I live in Hong Kong, where there are both private hospitals and Government hospitals as they are called here, they are funded directly by the hk Government for the majority of funding, for example, resources and staff / management, equipment, facilities etc..etc.. But in turn for every time you go to hospital you pay a consultation fee, which is minimal, HKD$100, per person per consultation, even the same for an overnight stay in a hospital, works out about 8 pounds something, but then you can claim this back through your employers healthcare insurance scheme, and most helthcare from employers will also give you more money back as well on top of that as well, thats in your package, but going back to the funding, this sort of funding is good, there is also social welfare funding for the old and retired for exemptions etc... From this if they cannot pay or cannot work due to ill health etc..
GPs are different here, most are private but are capped by the Government as to how much they can charge per consultation.
I believe this is good, it stops time waisters and mis use of a healthcare system that is there for the citizens of a country or territory etc...not mass emigrants either
if you cannot produce your HK Identity Card for a hospital consultation here, you are classed as non resident and you pay tourist / visitors rates and claim through your travel insurance etc...or you are not here legally
This i think could be one way of funding parts of the NHS in whole or at least could be looked at as different ways or problem solving of funding.

[HKhibby]

Actually if you look at the numbers, Osbourne quietly came up with his own alternative. The initial austerity drive was softened a large amount from 2012. Result: the deficit hasn't fallen as fast as they trumpeted but the economy is now growing again.

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/osbornes-plan-b.html

It is growing and the largest growth in Europe from what i am reading, but what was the alternative from Labour? Well they didnt have one and still dont, but one of their answers was to keep spending...could they explain that? Probably not, which is why they just one of the reasons they will not (hopefully) win next years Election.

[HKhibby]

Just the Tories? MPs from all political parties were caught up in the expenses scandal and its difficult to say any one party is worse than any other




Labour were in charge when the banking crisis kicked off and Gordon Brown turned to the bankers to fix it. Not sure where the 'billions in commission' comes from but if its true I don't see how you can blame that on the Tories.

As for no bankers being jailed - I'm not saying I agree with it or otherwise but again, how is that the fault of the tories?

Regarding the Royal Mail sale, there was a limit on the amount of stock an individual could buy (£750 IIRC), which the tories enforced to make sure the public benefited from the sale. Not that this was their intention, but by undervaluing it, the ordinary members of the public that invested in the shares made a tidy profit.

I'm not saying the tories are perfect, far from it, I just don't see the point in slagging them off just because they're tories.

Well said, and its a change to read something different on here from someone who can obviously read between the lines and look at the biggar picture etc.. And not follow the majority for the sake of it.

its really interesting reading some of the comments, its alwaysvthe same: fat Tory supporting businesses / bankers etc...you had 13 years of Labour, Brown helped nearly bankrupt the country, Blair turned a blind eye! Who was some of Blairs biggest friends and sponsers? Big business and bankers / financial organisations...like the one he does speaches for now still JP Morgan around 5 million pounds a speaking tour! And im sure was or still is a non-executive director of the same company.

There are other reasons why the banking crisis kicked off as well, alot to do with banks and debts from elswhere, which was allowed to happen under Brown and Blair, not to mention having no reserves or resources to fall back on.

[VivaHiberña]

To be fair I'm not a conservative either but I'm yet to hear much of an alternative to austerity. I've heard some people say they would prefer more emphasis on tax rises but I've also spoken to people in the SSP who say the "deficit will deal with itself"... :rolleyes:


There's quite a few Tories in Stranraer, when talking to them I always hear "we have reduced the deficit by a third, we are cutting red tape" etc. etc.

I am a bit disappointed that those who oppose deficit reduction plans haven't come up with an alternative.

ALTERNATIVE 1:
Spending more, essentially Keynesian policies, is, I believe, a viable alternative. We inject more capital into the economy to stimulate growth by increasing government expenditure, borrowing to pay for it. This then restores investor confidence and private investors and consumers start to spend, meaning the government's additional investment is replaced by the private sector and the cycle self-perpetuates. We then meet this by increasing taxing and reducing spending during the period of growth (ie. when people can afford it) which also has the effect of tempering the 'boom and bust' effect of the modern economy, thus making the next (almost inevitable, IMO, given people's refusal to learn) crash a little softer.

I appreciate this is massively simplified and doesn't always work in the real world but you asked for an alternative.

Given the hit the construction industry took, big infrastructure projects are a good shout. In Scotland the Commonwealth Games and new Forth Bridge are good examples of this. Sadly the two good English examples (the Olympics and HS2) will only benefit the South-East of England (funny enough :rolleyes:), the one region that doesn't need more investment.

The Nazi Party's economic rebuilding of Germany and Roosevelt's "New Deal" in the 1930s are both successful example of this sort of policy in action, sadly it doesn't fit with the current neo-liberal agenda so won't be happening any time soon.

ALTERNATIVE 2 (preferred but even less likely):
Default on the 'national' debt, nationalise all the things and teach your comrades the words to The Internationale. :cb



Actually if you look at the numbers, Osbourne quietly came up with his own alternative. The initial austerity drive was softened a large amount from 2012. Result: the deficit hasn't fallen as fast as they trumpeted but the economy is now growing again.

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/osbornes-plan-b.html

Is it though? Or just property prices in SE England? I reckon we're back in Thatcher and Reagan's bubble and just waiting for it to burst again.

[VivaHiberña]

Well said, and its a change to read something different on here from someone who can obviously read between the lines and look at the biggar picture etc.. And not follow the majority for the sake of it.

its really interesting reading some of the comments, its alwaysvthe same: fat Tory supporting businesses / bankers etc...you had 13 years of Labour, Brown helped nearly bankrupt the country, Blair turned a blind eye! Who was some of Blairs biggest friends and sponsers? Big business and bankers / financial organisations...like the one he does speaches for now still JP Morgan around 5 million pounds a speaking tour! And im sure was or still is a non-executive director of the same company.

There are other reasons why the banking crisis kicked off as well, alot to do with banks and debts from elswhere, which was allowed to happen under Brown and Blair, not to mention having no reserves or resources to fall back on.

:agree: Tories in red.

[yeezus.]

ALTERNATIVE 1:
Spending more, essentially Keynesian policies, is, I believe, a viable alternative. We inject more capital into the economy to stimulate growth by increasing government expenditure, borrowing to pay for it. This then restores investor confidence and private investors and consumers start to spend, meaning the government's additional investment is replaced by the private sector and the cycle self-perpetuates. We then meet this by increasing taxing and reducing spending during the period of growth (ie. when people can afford it) which also has the effect of tempering the 'boom and bust' effect of the modern economy, thus making the next (almost inevitable, IMO, given people's refusal to learn) crash a little softer.

I appreciate this is massively simplified and doesn't always work in the real world but you asked for an alternative.

Given the hit the construction industry took, big infrastructure projects are a good shout. In Scotland the Commonwealth Games and new Forth Bridge are good examples of this. Sadly the two good English examples (the Olympics and HS2) will only benefit the South-East of England (funny enough :rolleyes:), the one region that doesn't need more investment.

The Nazi Party's economic rebuilding of Germany and Roosevelt's "New Deal" in the 1930s are both successful example of this sort of policy in action, sadly it doesn't fit with the current neo-liberal agenda so won't be happening any time soon.

ALTERNATIVE 2 (preferred but even less likely):
Default on the 'national' debt, nationalise all the things and teach your comrades the words to The Internationale. :cb




Is it though? Or just property prices in SE England? I reckon we're back in Thatcher and Reagan's bubble and just waiting for it to burst again.

Thank you! I wasn't saying there is no alternative but the trade unionists and lefties who oppose it all together have bewildered me by saying that "the deficit will deal with itself".

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Thank you! I wasn't saying there is no alternative but the trade unionists and lefties who oppose it all together have bewildered me by saying that "the deficit will deal with itself".

Straight out of the Gorgie book of Economics

[yeezus.]

Straight out of the Gorgie book of Economics

Aye it turns out to be a bit of a conversation killer.

[Bristolhibby]

There's quite a few Tories in Stranraer, when talking to them I always hear "we have reduced the deficit by a third, we are cutting red tape" etc. etc.

I am a bit disappointed that those who oppose deficit reduction plans haven't come up with an alternative.

Pump Prime Keynesian economics.

There's a Nobel Prize winning economist, who has written some great articles.

There is an alternative, only the decision makers (the rich and powerful (not we the people)) make global decisions to solidify their position and make themselves richer.

http://m.wisegeek.org/what-is-keynesian-economics.htm

[Lewis77]

it isnae an ideology and if it was the one word to sum it up would be 'dick'!

[snooky]

By defintion it is "a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, preferring gradual development to abrupt change. Specifically, lower taxes, limited government regulation of business and investing, a strong national defence and individual financial responsibility for personal needs".

For me, however, Conservatism amounts to 3 words - Trickle Down Ecomonics.

We make the wealthier more wealthy and eventually those not so well off will benefit from the wealth creation at the top.

Problem is it doesn't work, the wealthy create more wealth and keep it for themselves thereby explaining why the gap between the richest and poorest in our society continues to grow year on year.

The current austerity measures of the ConLib administration are a good case in point. We have food banks popping up all over the country whilst those at the 'top end' (i.e. - individuals and corporations) are sitting on a pile of cash with which they know not what to do. This in turns leads to them 'playing' with their money in risky and, as we have seen in recent times, toxic investments.

"Trickle Down Ecomonics"
The word 'trickle' is well chosen.
(The first 5 letters provide a clue)

[sauzee_4]

"Trickle Down Ecomonics"
The word 'trickle' is well chosen.
(The first 5 letters provide a clue)


I've been investigating this some more, I have come across the phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" on various (American) right-wing youtube videos!

They seem to be saying that aslong as the GDP goes up and up, peoples living standards increase etc.

Wish there were more Tory's on this forum :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I've been investigating this some more, I have come across the phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" on various (American) right-wing youtube videos!

They seem to be saying that aslong as the GDP goes up and up, peoples living standards increase etc.

Wish there were more Tory's on this forum :greengrin

There's quite a few, they just don't come clean about it. It's almost as if they're ashamed to admit it. :duck: