Fenlon v Butcher.........

[Dalkeith Boy]

Thought I would compare their record in SPL this season....if my calcs are correct then it looks like...

Fenlon.....11 games = 18 points

Butcher....25 games = 17 points

I like them both but wonder where we would have been had Fenlon stayed?

[Callum_62]

Where would we have been?

Not Easter Road anyway, someone wouldve burned it down.

[hibs4thecup1988]

Where would we have been?

Not Easter Road anyway, someone wouldve burned it down.

I seriously do not understand this. Comfortable, doing well in cups. And you say people would have burnt down the stadium? Jest or not.

Butcher has been awful. I think Fenlon would have us safe by now. IMHO

[Sir David Gray]

Thought I would compare their record in SPL this season....if my calcs are correct then it looks like...

Fenlon.....11 games = 18 points

Butcher....25 games = 17 points

I like them both but wonder where we would have been had Fenlon stayed?

Butcher's only been in charge for 23 league games.

There were two games in between Fenlon's departure and Butcher's arrival that Jimmy Nicholl took charge of.

You've also got your sums wrong.

It's;

Fenlon - 15 points from 11 games
Butcher - 20 points from 23 games

[madhatter]

Thought I would compare their record in SPL this season....if my calcs are correct then it looks like...

Fenlon.....11 games = 18 points

Butcher....25 games = 17 points

I like them both but wonder where we would have been had Fenlon stayed?

Relegated. Fenlon dragged this club through some of the worst results this club has had in history. When butcher first took over he had us playing good football. Fenlon played extremely negative football and had Griffiths to save his neck. Also, 1st half of season against 2nd half of the season is an unfair comparison at Hibs. We always fade off to nothingness in 2nd part of season.

[Gus Fring]

I seriously do not understand this. Comfortable, doing well in cups. And you say people would have burnt down the stadium? Jest or not.

Butcher has been awful. I think Fenlon would have us safe by now. IMHO

"Doing well in cups". Fenlon left after getting us put out of the League Cup. To Hearts.

[hibs4thecup1988]

"Doing well in cups". Fenlon left after getting us put out of the League Cup. To Hearts.

And we have done so much since eh...

Anyways allowed our opinions that was mines.

[easty]

Thought I would compare their record in SPL this season....if my calcs are correct then it looks like...

Fenlon.....11 games = 18 points

Butcher....25 games = 17 points

I like them both but wonder where we would have been had Fenlon stayed?

If Pat had stayed I reckon he would have added at least one more of the most humiliating results in my time supporting Hibs to his list.

[#FromTheCapital]

Why can't we just judge butcher and compare him to past, failed managers when he has his own team?

[madhatter]

And we have done so much since eh...

Anyways allowed our opinions that was mines.

If Fenlon was so good why did you end with "have us safe"? Surely we should be top 4 at least...if Fenlon was good...he had his time and proved completely and utterly tactically inept.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

Close thread.

[bawheid]

Another stench coming off this thread.

[greenlex]

Who gives a flying one. Fenlon is gone. History.

[Callum_62]

I seriously do not understand this. Comfortable, doing well in cups. And you say people would have burnt down the stadium? Jest or not.

Butcher has been awful. I think Fenlon would have us safe by now. IMHO

Your totally right. I forgot the pleasant atmosphere surrounding Pat prior to his departure

We would still be at ER, and a small statue of Mr Fenlon wouldve been erected (life sized).

[Danderhall Hibs]

And we have done so much since eh...

Anyways allowed our opinions that was mines.

Opinions can be ridiculed if they're shown to be pish.

Butcher couldn't take us further in 50% of the cups cos we'd been emptied before he joined. FACT not opinion.

[Mibbes Aye]

Fenlon needed a Malpas, the Malpas, that was his problem. SuperMo in place and Fenlon would still be here, thinking about how to manage pre-season to fit in with Europe :agree:

[Jonnyboy]

Dunno about anyone else but I'm getting fed up with all these Fenlon/Butcher debates. Pat's gone. Move on FFS

[CallumLaidlaw]

Eh? Fenlon was unbeaten against them last season: they have pissed all over us under Butcher and Malpas.

Eh? We've played them 5 times. First 2 were both losses, under Fenlon. The next 3 under butcher, we have won 1, lost 2.

[Jones28]

Get this tae ****

[Thecat23]

How can anyone compare them?

Fenlon had more than 11 games over all FFS. He was truly awful. He also had a handful of transfer windows. When TB has had the same amount of time pat did then you can judge him.

Until then ram these negative threads where the sun don't shine!!!

[SouthamptonHibs]

Fenlon 99.999990% to blame terry gets 0.000001% to blame Fenlon signed these players come on vine and Collins yer taking the posh. What about Stevenson and Hanlon getting fans players of the year! We are bad at best those two are solid pro's not poty awards

[dmc1875]

Fenlon 99.999990% to blame terry gets 0.000001% to blame Fenlon signed these players come on vine and Collins yer taking the posh. What about Stevenson and Hanlon getting fans players of the year! We are bad at best those two are solid pro's not poty awards

Exactly. If Fenlon was still manager, we would probably be safe, but in a worse position. I believe we have a far stronger management team in place and will see that next season. With Fenlon we were going nowhere

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Dunno about anyone else but I'm getting fed up with all these Fenlon/Butcher debates. Pat's gone. Move on FFS

Correct jb - the future is forward not back do we really yearn to wallow in the past?
Surely we have the yams for that purpose?

[Weir7]

Relegated. Fenlon dragged this club through some of the worst results this club has had in history. When butcher first took over he had us playing good football. Fenlon played extremely negative football and had Griffiths to save his neck. Also, 1st half of season against 2nd half of the season is an unfair comparison at Hibs. We always fade off to nothingness in 2nd part of season.

You can't be serious re butcher had us playing good fitba.

HOOF BALL

[Weir7]

Why can't we just judge butcher and compare him to past, failed managers when he has his own team?

Crystal Palace haven't said that about Tony Pullis.

Butcher is a caveman with hoofball tactics. Results are brutual.

Butcher out.

[Weir7]

Fenlon 99.999990% to blame terry gets 0.000001% to blame Fenlon signed these players come on vine and Collins yer taking the posh. What about Stevenson and Hanlon getting fans players of the year! We are bad at best those two are solid pro's not poty awards

Butcher not at fault for this horrendous run?

Signing three turkeys in January?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Butcher not at fault for this horrendous run?

Signing three turkeys in January?

You're a real "up" person... Is that a hat trick of downers or a downer triple ;)

[Weir7]

You're a real "up" person... Is that a hat trick of downers or a downer triple ;)

Really interested in what you think

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Thought I would compare their record in SPL this season....if my calcs are correct then it looks like...

Fenlon.....11 games = 18 points

Butcher....25 games = 17 points

I like them both but wonder where we would have been had Fenlon stayed?

What else do you contemplate of an Ontario evening? Thatcher V Blair, Konte V. Hurtado, the scoring droughts of the famous five? ;)

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Really interested in what you think

I think this is a side show and irelevant to the real important stuff.

They started in different circumstances PF was dire and needed short term fixes which needed Garry and Leigh to bail us out. I'd hoped PF would have laid the foundations but remarkably it's seemingly turned out not to be the case. Despite this I'd have hoped TB and MM regardless would have turned things around working with what they had more or less.

The real difference between PF and TB is Leigh. Take Leigh away from PFs team and it would have been dire in the extreme plus he was instrumental in the cup runs. Or add him to TBs team and no danger we'd be sitting where we are now.

All if's and buts and at the end of the day is irrelevant in terms of the immediate challenge we face in the next couple of games. Squabbles like this and around who's the worst defender is like badly playing the violin on the Titanic.

[SaulGoodman]

Crystal Palace haven't said that about Tony Pullis.

Butcher is a caveman with hoofball tactics. Results are brutual.

Butcher out.

Are you trying to compare us to an English Premiership team? Crystal Palace had far better players than we did when Pullis took over.

[Pretty Boy]

Good time to start a thread like this.

Other teams and fans pull together when they are in a situation like we are, a hell of a lot of people on here are trying to do the same. Seems 1 or 2 enjoy putting the boot into the club just a bit too much though.

Good work.

[bingo70]

Tbh butcher has been an unmitigated disaster so far and there's no question fenlon has had a better record this year. For that reason i was more critical than most regarding butcher. These last two games though hes got the players playing for him and i couldnt fault anyones effort. Imo we have been very unlucky not to get 6 points.

We need to stay up and if we do im a lot more confident now than i was two weeks ago in terms of our prospects next season.

[Jones28]

Crystal Palace haven't said that about Tony Pullis.

Butcher is a caveman with hoofball tactics. Results are brutual.

Butcher out.

The difference being crystal palace did well to get into the PL ABD had to actually win something to get there, this team is just plain pish.

[#FromTheCapital]

Crystal Palace haven't said that about Tony Pullis.

Butcher is a caveman with hoofball tactics. Results are brutual.

Butcher out.

Another ridiculous comparison. Premiership team with far better players than us. Players that may also have suited Pullis' style more than our squad suits butchers.

If we start next season the same way we're finishing this one then the pressure will be on butcher. Until then let's just concentrate on the task in hand, which is staying in the spfl. I'm still confident that Butcher will turn us around.

[easty]

The difference being crystal palace did well to get into the PL ABD had to actually win something to get there, this team is just plain pish.

There are a million differences. Not many similarities between our situation and Palace at all really.

[Cropley10]

How would Terry's team with Sparky in it?

How would Pat's team have done with Collins in it?

But other posters are right, there's a stench coming off this thread and it's a nonsense.

[matty_f]

I liked Pat Fenlon, met him a couple of times and was always impressed with him. I liked what he intended to do with the club in terms of trying to toughen us up a bit. I didn't particularly like watching Fenlon's Hibs side. There were games that were so dull they'd turn you to cricket. Going to games and not managing to witness a shot on target from our team was not unusual, and there were some total horror shows in there as well.

I like Terry Butcher, I like what he's intending to do with the club in terms of trying to toughen us up a bit. It looks like he might actually get somewhere with it at this (still relatively early) stage.

I haven't particularly liked watching Butcher's side at times. There were games so dull that they'd turn you to cricket. Going to games and not managing to witness a shot on target from our team has not been unusual, and there have been some total horror shows in there as well. That said, Butcher has been hamstrung with a horrendous injury list (to be fair, so was Fenlon), which when coupled with suspensions has meant that he's not been able to name a consistent back four, let alone a consistent team. The last two games with the return to form of Kevin Thomson, Liam Craig showing up better on the right ("who'd have thought it?" - Pat Fenlon), Harris getting more game time, and the return to the team of Scott Robertson have put a bit better quality on the park, and it's shown in the performances.

The team genuinely look like they're in it together, fighting for the badge (despite what the miserable sod at the back of the West lower thinks with his relentless abuse to the players), and they're trying to play decent football as well. Neither Saturday nor the derby could reasonably be described as hoofball (with the concession that that particular statement has to be said with your fingers crossed if you took Nelson's distribution into consideration in isolation...) we tried to play the ball through the midfield to wide players, Kevin Thomson being integral in ball retention, and we've put our opponents under pressure for a fair chunk of the games.

The comparison with Tony Pullis isn't fair. For every Pullis there is a Moyes or an Ole Gunnar Solksjaer. Butcher took over a team that was decent when everyone was fit, but take two or more players out the starting 11 and you see a team that lacked the quality and experience to overcome its deficiencies.

I think it's a fairer comparison to make this time next year. Working on the optimistic assumption that we will do enough to retain our SPFL place, Butcher has, we're told, got some exciting signings lined up for the summer. A minor revolution is on the cards at the club with Leeann Dempster arriving to nudge (shove) Petrie into the background and there's talk of a Director of Football and a new Academy gadgie coming to the club.

It's an exciting time to be a Hibee, not the kind of excitement we want to be involved in right now, granted, but beyond this season there is lots to be optimistic about, and with the squad revamp the Fenlon era will continue to fade into memory and Butcher's legacy can be written.


Glory Glory!

[basehibby]

Butcher not at fault for this horrendous run?

Signing three turkeys in January?


Erm 3 turkeys???

Have you actually seen any of them play?

Watmore has been a success - Haynes & Boateng have not improved the side but your inclusion of Watmore under the "turkey" tag reveals your post as gratuitously negative and insulting and relegates the relevance of your opinion on this thread to that of a troll IMO.

BTW how sheight and pointless is this thread anyway - contain yourself for ONE week more OP (hopefully NOT any more than that!) and then the disection and post mortem on our season can truly begin. In the meantime here's a novel idea - how about getting behind the team you purport to support instead of trying to undermine the management team?!?

[matty_f]

Erm 3 turkeys???

Have you actually seen any of them play?

Watmore has been a success - Haynes & Boateng have not improved the side but your inclusion of Watmore under the "turkey" tag reveals your post as gratuitously negative and insulting and relegates the relevance of your opinion on this thread to that of a troll IMO.
Wait till you've seen his other posts!

[bingo70]

Including watmore as a turkey is maybe a bit harsh but the guy still cant get his game and when fenlon apparently left him the worst team ever, its a bit concerning butcher couldnt find one player to improve the first 11.

As i said earlier, the last two games have been encouraging so dont want to be too hard on butcher but it does piss me off he has wasted our money on the likes of boateng who he isnt even willing to play.

We need to make far better use of our money this summer.

[The Sea-gull]

Fenlon wasn't as bad or as good as some made out but there were reasons why he lost his job that have been gone over many times.

My own thoughts are that, if he had stayed, we'd probably be about where we are now in the table but enough points clear of the play off spot to have been mathematically safe a couple of weeks ago and never really even involved in any serious talk of the play off. We might have even scraped the top 6. We might have continued our slow progress under Fenlon but at the time he left a decision had to be taken by him and the board on whether progress this season was likely and I think it was the correct time for him to go. We weren't showing enough signs of real improvement and he always just one more derby defeat or embarrassing result away from a fan protest outside the West.

Would we still be in the Scottish cup, maybe but even if PF's Hibs had overcome Raith, would they have beat St Johnstone in the quarters and Aberdeen in the semis and then go on to beat Dundee United in the final? Maybe but maybe not. We can't really think like that.

Anyway, if we had got to a third consecutive final and lost it, there would be folk on here holding that up as an achievement and wanting him to keep his job despite another season in the bottom 6.

FWIW if Fenlon had stayed, I think the three derby results since he left would have been exactly the same.

In context, short term (that is this season) we would have probably been better off with Fenlon. Long term I believe Butcher is the better option. I did thnk we might have to go through some pain this season before things get better under Butcher, just never thought it would have been this painful!

[HFC 0-7]

This thread is baws! Fenlon is gone, he walked stating he had taken us as far as he could. Terry is in now, January windows are pish so couldn't get much done. Players know their time is up and perhaps didn't work as hard as normal and we are in a crappy position.

Fenlon vs butcher, who cares! Let's just support butcher and and get the next 2 games done and dusted that will see top flight status confirmed.

This is thread reeks of yam stool!

[madhatter]

Think in all fairness, Butcher probably thought even at Christmas that this team were good enough to stay up - especially seeing we were in a "not bad" position then. So, these loans were seen as short-term stop-gaps to cover for injuries or improve slightly - Watmore is a tricky winger and we're hardly blessed with those so he is a good addition. I'm glad he brought in short-term loan deals - better saving more cash for the summer.

No point comparing, this is utterly pointless at this time especially. Get behind the team and support your club. Stop comparing to any of the previous managers, especially those who took us through some of the worst results in our history...

The future is bright, the future is green and white!

[--------]

Dunno about anyone else but I'm getting fed up with all these Fenlon/Butcher debates. Pat's gone. Move on FFS


Same here, John. All that's relevant right now is where we get the three points we require to avoid the play-off games and guarantee our presence next season in the top league.

Then LD arrives in June and she sits down with Butcher to deal with close-season issues like assembling a squad fit for next campaign.

Too much looking back, too many rumours and rumours of rumours flying around, too many people with unspoken agendas on this forum IMHO.

[greenlex]

I was one if the very few who stuck up for Fenlon. He has however gone. Butcher will do just fine given time and above all the supporters backing. We must pull together and stop this ****ing nonsense now.

[Peevemor]

I was one if the very few who stuck up for Fenlon. He has however gone. Butcher will do just fine given time and above all the supporters backing. We must pull together and stop this ****ing nonsense now.

:agree:

[s.a.m]

Think in all fairness, Butcher probably thought even at Christmas that this team were good enough to stay up - especially seeing we were in a "not bad" position then. So, these loans were seen as short-term stop-gaps to cover for injuries or improve slightly - Watmore is a tricky winger and we're hardly blessed with those so he is a good addition. I'm glad he brought in short-term loan deals - better saving more cash for the summer.

No point comparing, this is utterly pointless at this time especially. Get behind the team and support your club. Stop comparing to any of the previous managers, especially those who took us through some of the worst results in our history...

The future is bright, the future is green and white!

I would agree with that.

[Borderhibbie76]

What a pointless thread this is...can we not just focus on here and now...big week ahead lets get behind TB MM and the team and hopefully get this job done abd forget all about this season... fwiw fenlon woulda got us relegated last season had we not had super leigh imo...

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[neil7908]

I wanted Fenlon gone but its pretty clear Butcher has been poor since he has come in.However, this is not his team. He needs support over summer and a change to bring his own players in with a decent budget behind him. If we are anywhere near this position this time next season however we will need to be looking at alternatives.

[Captain Trips]

I agree that these are mostly another guys players but remember the same was said when PF took over from CC even though PF won 5 SPL games when he took over at roughly the same stage as TB has taken over.

PF results were ignored to quite a point as the blame was placed at CCs door. Those PF results were indicative of what went in future.

I think you can ignore TBs 24 games at your peril. Totally based on hope we do well next season nothing based in his time here so far.

Hope it works but I unfortunately think it won't.

[Jonnyboy]

You can't be serious re butcher had us playing good fitba.

HOOF BALL


Crystal Palace haven't said that about Tony Pullis.

Butcher is a caveman with hoofball tactics. Results are brutual.

Butcher out.


Butcher not at fault for this horrendous run?

Signing three turkeys in January?


Really interested in what you think

Do you ever say anything positive about Hibs? You come across as though TB's bedded your Mrs you're so bitter.

[SouthamptonHibs]

Butcher not at fault for this horrendous run?

Signing three turkeys in January?

Two have been bad and one ok (watmore). I agree not the best signings but I think Petrie would have put the block on most of butchers targets due to money. We tried to sign Rooney but he choose Aberdeen due to length of contract and money

[Peevemor]

Two have been bad and one ok (watmore). I agree not the best signings but I think Petrie would have put the block on most of butchers targets due to money. We tried to sign Rooney but he choose Aberdeen due to length of contract and money

Maybe, and more simply, money put the block on most of Butcher's targets due to , eh, money.

[Keith_M]

We would most likely be in 6th or 7th place with no chance of qualifying for Europe but safe from relegation ....and calling for Fenlon's head due to the quality of football and league finish not being good enough for Hibs (what are we like :wink:)

This is Fenlon's team and are more suited to play his 'style' of football. Butcher has consumately failed to get the best out of the players at his disposal.

However, even although I think it's a fair question, it would maybe be better if asked again at the end of next season, after a whole year of watching Butcher managing his team.... that is, if we're still actually in the Premierleagueship

[Russ]

Thought I would compare their record in SPL this season....if my calcs are correct then it looks like...

Fenlon.....11 games = 18 points

Butcher....25 games = 17 points

I like them both but wonder where we would have been had Fenlon stayed?
Stats mean **** all. Scotland were the only team unbeaten in the 1974 World Cup did it count for anything?