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jeffers
29-04-2014, 12:27 PM
I have mentioned before that one of my mates is friendly with PF. They caught up recently, I asked my mate what he had to say. Some of it I have posted previously, some of it new. This is what PF told him (or for Blackpoolhibs benefit, what my mate said he told him :wink:):

The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw. PF can't understand where the money goes, but we have definitely lost out on players as other teams (Aberdeen was specifically mentioned) have offered players more. His opinion was that not only Aberdeen, but Dundee Utd were paying more than us. And despite getting to two consecutive cup finals his budget was cut for the following season.

He did resign, but received a pay off. He felt against Aberdeen that he had lost the dressing room, the players were no longer following his instructions and offered his resignation after that game - Petrie talked him out of it as we were playing Them in the league cup that coming mid-week. He had a good relationship with RP and his opinion was that RP put in a large number of hours on Hibs behalf, taking on more responsbility after Lindsay and Hyland left - if anything he did too much.

A fee of £285,000 had been agreed with Wolves to sign LG. RP was down there hoping to conclude the deal when they sacked their manager, Dean Saunders came in and he blocked the move. We tried again in the summer, Wolves were not prepared to sell him. We ended up paying just over half the £200,000 that's been quoted to sign LG's "replacement", James Collins.

He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.

Overall he loves Hibs, he felt we are a great club and everything should be in place for us to succeed, but something just isn't right - he inferred that this was down to the direction being set by those in charge, they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books. In his time at ER (and this was just a statement, not a dig) he met STF only twice.

I have posted what I was told, up to you if you believe it.

Winston Ingram
29-04-2014, 12:30 PM
I have mentioned before that one of my mates is friendly with PF. They caught up recently, I asked my mate what he had to say. Some of it I have posted previously, some of it new. This is what PF told him (or for Blackpoolhibs benefit, what my mate said he told him :wink:):

The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw. PF can't understand where the money goes, but we have definitely lost out on players as other teams (Aberdeen was specifically mentioned) have offered players more. His opinion was that not only Aberdeen, but Dundee Utd were paying more than us. And despite getting to two consecutive cup finals his budget was cut for the following season.

He did resign, but received a pay off. He felt against Aberdeen that he had lost the dressing room, the players were no longer following his instructions and offered his resignation after that game - Petrie talked him out of it as we were playing Them in the league cup that coming mid-week. He had a good relationship with RP and his opinion was that RP put in a large number of hours on Hibs behalf, taking on more responsbility after Lindsay and Hyland left - if anything he did too much.

A fee of £285,000 had been agreed with Wolves to sign LG. RP was down there hoping to conclude the deal when they sacked their manager, Dean Saunders came in and he blocked the move. We tried again in the summer, Wolves were not prepared to sell him. We ended up paying just over half the £200,000 that's been quoted to sign LG's "replacement", James Collins.

He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.

Overall he loves Hibs, he felt we are a great club and everything should be in place for us to succeed, but something just isn't right - he inferred that this was down to the direction being set by those in charge, they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books. In his time at ER (and this was just a statement, not a dig) he met STF only twice.

I have posted what I was told, up to you if you believe it.

Cheers for the info:agree:

Tom Hart RIP
29-04-2014, 12:31 PM
Good post. Seems accurate to me

easty
29-04-2014, 12:33 PM
He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.



As fans we (or at least I) expected little from Pat and he gave us even less, nice of him to shift the blame from himself to the supporters for the players lack of performance.

The Stuart McCall comment is an odd one. Did we ask him to come to us?

I better put it out there that I have no interest in ever dating Miranda Kerr.

R'Albin
29-04-2014, 12:33 PM
Reading that Griffiths bit is just sickening. We'd be nowhere near where we are now if we had him.

Spike Mandela
29-04-2014, 12:35 PM
Sounds plausible and not overly bitter however he of course doesn't mention any of his own shortcomings.

I have often wondered if, despite having a reasonable budget in SPL terms, we limit our chances of signing better players by capping the maximum wage available and lose out to Aberdeen or Dundee Utd who might be more flexible for better players.

Captain Trips
29-04-2014, 12:39 PM
To me it just sounds like excuses TBH, not doubting any of it was said but it appears to be Rod and the fans most at fault.

smurf
29-04-2014, 12:39 PM
The "unrealistic expectations" stuff does my head in...

Thanks though for the information.

Michael
29-04-2014, 12:41 PM
Strange. I'm surprised there is a wage cap. Why wouldn't we be more flexible?

Pretty Boy
29-04-2014, 12:42 PM
The "unrealistic expectations" stuff does my head in...

Thanks though for the information.

This.

I expect to finish in the top 6, I expect not to lose 9-0 in Europe and I expect not to go out of the League Cup with a whimper. How unrealistic of me.

Not one mention of his own many shortcomings.

S4uzee
29-04-2014, 12:43 PM
Very good of you to share the info :aok:. As mentioned, the Griffiths part is sickening

SmashinGlass
29-04-2014, 12:45 PM
I have mentioned before that one of my mates is friendly with PF. They caught up recently, I asked my mate what he had to say. Some of it I have posted previously, some of it new. This is what PF told him (or for Blackpoolhibs benefit, what my mate said he told him :wink:):

The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw. PF can't understand where the money goes, but we have definitely lost out on players as other teams (Aberdeen was specifically mentioned) have offered players more. His opinion was that not only Aberdeen, but Dundee Utd were paying more than us. And despite getting to two consecutive cup finals his budget was cut for the following season.

He did resign, but received a pay off. He felt against Aberdeen that he had lost the dressing room, the players were no longer following his instructions and offered his resignation after that game - Petrie talked him out of it as we were playing Them in the league cup that coming mid-week. He had a good relationship with RP and his opinion was that RP put in a large number of hours on Hibs behalf, taking on more responsbility after Lindsay and Hyland left - if anything he did too much.

A fee of £285,000 had been agreed with Wolves to sign LG. RP was down there hoping to conclude the deal when they sacked their manager, Dean Saunders came in and he blocked the move. We tried again in the summer, Wolves were not prepared to sell him. We ended up paying just over half the £200,000 that's been quoted to sign LG's "replacement", James Collins.

He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.

Overall he loves Hibs, he felt we are a great club and everything should be in place for us to succeed, but something just isn't right - he inferred that this was down to the direction being set by those in charge, they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books. In his time at ER (and this was just a statement, not a dig) he met STF only twice.

I have posted what I was told, up to you if you believe it.

I can remember Butcher alluding to this when he was still with ICT and coming down to ER for a game. Sure it was last season and he said something along the lines of keeping the game tight for 20 mins or so and the fans will get restless.

FWIW, I think that part is spot on. As fans, we are restless and do get on at the players. I accept that we want a minimum performance level, but we won't ever help by abusing the team. Years of psychological research has taught us that, yet we persist with this perpetual abuse.

My tin hat is firmly on here, as I accept that my views will probably get some on here wound up, but it is what it is. If we support the team, they will derive more confidence from that.

jeffers
29-04-2014, 12:45 PM
As fans we (or at least I) expected little from Pat and he gave us even less, nice of him to shift the blame from himself to the supporters for the players lack of performance.

The Stuart McCall comment is an odd one. Did we ask him to come to us?

I better put it out there that I have no interest in ever dating Miranda Kerr.

I think the expectations bit was not so much that he disagreed where we should be as a club just that we were expecting it to happen too soon. He wasn't absolving himself from blame, but in his view he'd inherited a mess from Calderwood and felt it needed time to address - much the same as folk are saying with TB. Re the fans, again he wasn't saying that was why players weren't performing, just that it didn't help.

He is on good terms with Stuart McCall. He seemed to think we were considering him either before or after Yogi.

And fwiw I am not really defending PF. By all accounts he is a lovely bloke, but I felt he should have gone after the cup final at the end of last season. But he did acknowledge that he got things wrong by resigning, not waiting 'til he was sacked.

Captain Trips
29-04-2014, 12:46 PM
"The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw"

Is it the highest we are prepared to pay a player is 1.8k pw or was that what our highest player was on at time as these are very different things?

If it is cap I would question this then based on what he says later regarding Leigh, would we really have secured Leigh on 1.8k pw? surely he was on at least that at Wolves? We have a cap and are chucking about fees and bids in excess of 100k? Seems a bit strange to me.

Captain Trips
29-04-2014, 12:48 PM
I can remember Butcher alluding to this when he was still with ICT and coming down to ER for a game. Sure it was last season and he said something along the lines of keeping the game tight for 20 mins or so and the fans will get restless.

FWIW, I think that part is spot on. As fans, we are restless and do get on at the players. I accept that we want a minimum performance level, but we won't ever help by abusing the team. Years of psychological research has taught us that, yet we persist with this perpetual abuse.

My tin hat is firmly on here, as I accept that my views will probably get some on here wound up, but it is what it is. If we support the team, they will derive more confidence from that.

I think its an easy get out from players etc, I have been watching Hibs and been to a lot of other games in various ends of stadiums in over 20yrs and we are no worse than anyone else.

BH Hibs
29-04-2014, 12:49 PM
This.

I expect to finish in the top 6, I expect not to lose 9-0 in Europe and I expect not to go out of the League Cup with a whimper. How unrealistic of me.

Not one mention of his own many shortcomings.

Absolutely. Two seasons with no Rangers and a weakened Hearts I'd have expected top four but bottom six is a disgrace and hopefully that's the worst it gets. As for players being picked on geez a break. What should be our expectations ? A revolving door of players who don't give a **** and bail out when things get tough?

easty
29-04-2014, 12:51 PM
I think the expectations bit was not so much that he disagreed where we should be as a club just that we were expecting it to happen too soon. He wasn't absolving himself from blame, but in his view he'd inherited a mess from Calderwood and felt it needed time to address - much the same as folk are saying with TB. Re the fans, again he wasn't saying that was why players weren't performing, just that it didn't help.

He is on good terms with Stuart McCall. He seemed to think we were considering him either before or after Yogi.

To be honest mate, I dont think anything Pat Fenlon says, about anything, ever, will make me happy. I'd probably nit-pick at everything.

Misery and abject failure are the two things I'll remember about his time at Easter Road. I wish I could forget all about him.

HH81
29-04-2014, 12:52 PM
Absolutely. Two seasons with no Rangers and a weakened Hearts I'd have expected top four but bottom six is a disgrace and hopefully that's the worst it gets. As for players being picked on geez a break. What should be our expectations ? A revolving door of players who don't give a **** and bail out when things get tough?

We made the Scottish cup final, twice.

That was a big plus.

Spike Mandela
29-04-2014, 12:52 PM
"The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw"

Is it the highest we are prepared to pay a player is 1.8k pw or was that what our highest player was on at time as these are very different things?

If it is cap I would question this then based on what he says later regarding Leigh, would we really have secured Leigh on 1.8k pw? surely he was on at least that at Wolves? We have a cap and are chucking about fees and bids in excess of 100k? Seems a bit strange to me.

It's still £93,600 a year. Not bad if there is bonuses on top. Still would be good if we had flexibility to offer our top targets and best current players a higher weekly wage by signing less players and more quality.

The Sea-gull
29-04-2014, 12:52 PM
I have mentioned before that one of my mates is friendly with PF. They caught up recently, I asked my mate what he had to say. Some of it I have posted previously, some of it new. This is what PF told him (or for Blackpoolhibs benefit, what my mate said he told him :wink:):

The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw. PF can't understand where the money goes, but we have definitely lost out on players as other teams (Aberdeen was specifically mentioned) have offered players more. His opinion was that not only Aberdeen, but Dundee Utd were paying more than us. And despite getting to two consecutive cup finals his budget was cut for the following season.

He did resign, but received a pay off. He felt against Aberdeen that he had lost the dressing room, the players were no longer following his instructions and offered his resignation after that game - Petrie talked him out of it as we were playing Them in the league cup that coming mid-week. He had a good relationship with RP and his opinion was that RP put in a large number of hours on Hibs behalf, taking on more responsbility after Lindsay and Hyland left - if anything he did too much.

A fee of £285,000 had been agreed with Wolves to sign LG. RP was down there hoping to conclude the deal when they sacked their manager, Dean Saunders came in and he blocked the move. We tried again in the summer, Wolves were not prepared to sell him. We ended up paying just over half the £200,000 that's been quoted to sign LG's "replacement", James Collins.

He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.

Overall he loves Hibs, he felt we are a great club and everything should be in place for us to succeed, but something just isn't right - he inferred that this was down to the direction being set by those in charge, they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books. In his time at ER (and this was just a statement, not a dig) he met STF only twice.

I have posted what I was told, up to you if you believe it.

Pretty much all of what you have said sounds like it could be true based on stuff I have read on here, heard in the media and one or two bits I have been told by people who mix with individuals close to the club.

The £1800k per week bit I believe and wonder how far off what Aberdeen and United pay this is. Could it be that they perhaps pay £2k per week and this would tie in with the £200 or so Tom English (who also says he speaks reasonably regular with Pat Fenlon) says we were short of when bidding for a couple of players who went to Aberdeen. I also belive budgets will ahve been cut, as they have at many other clubs, as I don't think our finances are as healthy as some would like to think and we are a particularly careful club when it comes to this.

The bit about him offering his resignation after the Aberdeen game has done the rounds before. Who knows if it was true or not. It either has some substance or is just one of these internet myths that has become fact. Also don't doubt that RP does a lot for Hibs and perhaps does do too much which is perhaps part of the problem. The appointment of Dempster may reflect that RP realises this too.

The bit about Griffiths is a little bit like the resignation thing - has done the rounds so there is either something there or it is a complete myth that has been said so many times by so many it has become FACT. You offer a bit more insight at least and you say how you got your info but again there is porbably something in it but nothing will be belived as gospel unless it is directly quoted to a really credible primary source and we'll likely never get that.

The James Collins transfer fee will always be 200k now. Whether it was or wasn't, unless someone comes out and tells us what the deal was it will always be quoted as 200k. I blame the club in a way for this because if it wasn't then they could have clarified this at the time but they just allowed the 200k to be widely reported, probably as it was thought to be good PR.

I don't agree that we have unrealistic expectations but the crowd can be edgy at times. Its more a chicken and egg thing though - what happened first the team being rubbish or the crowd slagging off players? Would not be surprised if we have made enquireis about Stuart McCall. In fact would be dissappointed if we hadn't. Not surprised if that is up there in his reasons for not wanting the job either as am sure he has mentioned this before in interviews - mentioned that the crowd at ER get on top of the team, not that he wouldn't take the job coz of it.

Believe the stuff in the last paragraph. Never doubted that Pat had a bond and an affection for the club. Just don't think he should ever have been our manager in the first place; nothing personal against him, he was just not qualified enough.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
29-04-2014, 12:54 PM
I can remember Butcher alluding to this when he was still with ICT and coming down to ER for a game. Sure it was last season and he said something along the lines of keeping the game tight for 20 mins or so and the fans will get restless.

FWIW, I think that part is spot on. As fans, we are restless and do get on at the players. I accept that we want a minimum performance level, but we won't ever help by abusing the team. Years of psychological research has taught us that, yet we persist with this perpetual abuse.

My tin hat is firmly on here, as I accept that my views will probably get some on here wound up, but it is what it is. If we support the team, they will derive more confidence from that.

I also think this. Most managers will come to ER and tell their players to keep it tight for about 15/20 mins because they know the fans will start going mental. Dundee United done it earlier on in the season. Mcnamara & McCall do it when they come here, because they know what the fans are like.

Captain Trips
29-04-2014, 12:56 PM
It's still £93,600 a year. Not bad if there is bonuses on top. Still would be good if we had flexibility to offer our top targets and best current players a higher weekly wage by signing less players and more quality.

I do not know if good or bad compared to rivals what I am saying to me it doesnt make sense as I cannot see Leigh being on less than that at Wolves and with the fees we were meant to be chucking about I just do not think Leigh would have taken £1.8k after a good season and I think he was maybe on more at Wolves.

easty
29-04-2014, 12:57 PM
We made the Scottish cup final, twice.

That was a big plus.

It was, until we actually had to go there.

jeffers
29-04-2014, 12:57 PM
"The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw"

Is it the highest we are prepared to pay a player is 1.8k pw or was that what our highest player was on at time as these are very different things?

If it is cap I would question this then based on what he says later regarding Leigh, would we really have secured Leigh on 1.8k pw? surely he was on at least that at Wolves? We have a cap and are chucking about fees and bids in excess of 100k? Seems a bit strange to me.

My understanding was that is what we are prepared to pay, we try and "sweeten" the deal with signing on fees. Totally agree re LG, don't know how we could have expected him to sign for that. As far as I know he was on £3000 pw and we were paying Wolves £1000 of that.

Fergus52
29-04-2014, 12:57 PM
I can remember Butcher alluding to this when he was still with ICT and coming down to ER for a game. Sure it was last season and he said something along the lines of keeping the game tight for 20 mins or so and the fans will get restless.

FWIW, I think that part is spot on. As fans, we are restless and do get on at the players. I accept that we want a minimum performance level, but we won't ever help by abusing the team. Years of psychological research has taught us that, yet we persist with this perpetual abuse.

My tin hat is firmly on here, as I accept that my views will probably get some on here wound up, but it is what it is. If we support the team, they will derive more confidence from that.

Everything you said there is completely correct, but it'll never catch on.

I'm pretty sure a lot of folk go to Easter Road just to vent

The Harp Awakes
29-04-2014, 12:59 PM
He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations

I've no doubt PF has this view as I've heard these comments attributed to him before.

I actually think Hibs fans have grown to accept mediocrity and our level of expectation is less than what it should be. For years we have been outperformed by Clubs with a fraction of our infrastructure, turnover, fan base etc. Is it unrealistic to believe that we should be outperforming these Clubs consistently:confused:

BH Hibs
29-04-2014, 01:01 PM
I also think this. Most managers will come to ER and tell their players to keep it tight for about 15/20 mins because they know the fans will start going mental. Dundee United done it earlier on in the season. Mcnamara & McCall do it when they come here, because they know what the fans are like.

If the fans see that the tram is trying to break down a team and giving their all they will be encouraged in my opinion. If they're just humping balls up the park to a lone striker then that's when the frustration sets in.

Captain Trips
29-04-2014, 01:01 PM
My understanding was that is what we are prepared to pay, we try and "sweeten" the deal with signing on fees. Totally agree re LG, don't know how we could have expected him to sign for that. As far as I know he was on £3000 pw and we were paying Wolves £1000 of that.

Guesswork I guess from us but £3k pw at Wolves sounds very plausible and after a good season he could expect more if he moved this is why I am doubting the wage cap part as it isnt making sense. A wage cap in entirety makes sense say 50k pw and you can pay players from that so some maybe on 3k some 2k until you reach your limits.

Boyle89
29-04-2014, 01:04 PM
Fans have unrealistic expectations pat? Sorry for not wanting to get horsed 5-1 in a cup final against our biggest rivals. Sorry for not wanting to be humiliated in Europe, breaking a record for the biggest aggregate loss. Sorry for thinking, that with two of better teams out of the running, we would finish higher up the league. Sorry pat.
This is not a dig at the op btw I just hate the fans stuff.
As many others have said the griffiths thing is gutting if it's true. He will be top scorer next season I'm sure of it.

Hibernia&Alba
29-04-2014, 01:06 PM
This.

I expect to finish in the top 6, I expect not to lose 9-0 in Europe and I expect not to go out of the League Cup with a whimper. How unrealistic of me.

Not one mention of his own many shortcomings.

Indeed. It's hardly glory hunting. There's nothing unrealistic in believing a club of Hibs' size in Scottish football shouldn't be worrying about relegation AGAIN. We aren't meeting REALISTIC minimum requirements.

HH81
29-04-2014, 01:06 PM
It was, until we actually had to go there.

You either win or lose. We lost both but not many mangers get there 2 years in a row

GreenPJ
29-04-2014, 01:19 PM
It's still £93,600 a year. Not bad if there is bonuses on top. Still would be good if we had flexibility to offer our top targets and best current players a higher weekly wage by signing less players and more quality.

Agreed but its relative, if the majority of other football pro's at your level are earning more (basic) you look to see what is on offer elsehwere.

Personally I have no issues with lower bonuses and good appearance and very good win bonus. If we win games, the players get more money, the crowds increment slowly its a self paying process and truly is performance related pay that most of the rest of us have to pretend we get.

Bronson
29-04-2014, 01:19 PM
I have mentioned before that one of my mates is friendly with PF. They caught up recently, I asked my mate what he had to say. Some of it I have posted previously, some of it new. This is what PF told him (or for Blackpoolhibs benefit, what my mate said he told him :wink:):

The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw. PF can't understand where the money goes, but we have definitely lost out on players as other teams (Aberdeen was specifically mentioned) have offered players more. His opinion was that not only Aberdeen, but Dundee Utd were paying more than us. And despite getting to two consecutive cup finals his budget was cut for the following season.

He did resign, but received a pay off. He felt against Aberdeen that he had lost the dressing room, the players were no longer following his instructions and offered his resignation after that game - Petrie talked him out of it as we were playing Them in the league cup that coming mid-week. He had a good relationship with RP and his opinion was that RP put in a large number of hours on Hibs behalf, taking on more responsbility after Lindsay and Hyland left - if anything he did too much.

A fee of £285,000 had been agreed with Wolves to sign LG. RP was down there hoping to conclude the deal when they sacked their manager, Dean Saunders came in and he blocked the move. We tried again in the summer, Wolves were not prepared to sell him. We ended up paying just over half the £200,000 that's been quoted to sign LG's "replacement", James Collins.

He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.

Overall he loves Hibs, he felt we are a great club and everything should be in place for us to succeed, but something just isn't right - he inferred that this was down to the direction being set by those in charge, they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books. In his time at ER (and this was just a statement, not a dig) he met STF only twice.

I have posted what I was told, up to you if you believe it.

No doubt it's an interesting post, but I'm not sure I believe all of it. Surely we are paying some of our players more than £1800 p/w, not that many deserve it but that is the kind of wage I'd expect players to be on at clubs like St Mirren, Motherwell etc, who have far smaller budgets.

The Leigh Griffiths part really does turn your stomach:boo hoo:

MurrayfieldHibs
29-04-2014, 01:21 PM
Guesswork I guess from us but £3k pw at Wolves sounds very plausible and after a good season he could expect more if he moved this is why I am doubting the wage cap part as it isnt making sense. A wage cap in entirety makes sense say 50k pw and you can pay players from that so some maybe on 3k some 2k until you reach your limits.


My mate sent me this analysis from SportingIntelligence.com (this is my first attempt to attach a spreadsheet file here so hope it works!)
Here are the first 5 teams:-



Celtic

Hearts
Aberdeen
Hibernian
Dundee United


2012/13

22103
3206
3033
2565
2125










2011/12
21253
5305
2906
2804
2503










2010/11
20457
6310
3002
3322
2513










Average first team player weekly wage (£)












This dispels the "wage cap2 theory.....

12493

jeffers
29-04-2014, 01:28 PM
No doubt it's an interesting post, but I'm not sure I believe all of it. Surely we are paying some of our players more than £1800 p/w, not that many deserve it but that is the kind of wage I'd expect players to be on at clubs like St Mirren, Motherwell etc, who have far smaller budgets.

The Leigh Griffiths part really does turn your stomach:boo hoo:

That's fair enough. As I've said he couldn't understand where the money went. I've no reason to disbelieve any of it, but I can only post what my mate told me.

InterviewLoI
29-04-2014, 01:30 PM
Guesswork I guess from us but £3k pw at Wolves sounds very plausible and after a good season he could expect more if he moved this is why I am doubting the wage cap part as it isnt making sense. A wage cap in entirety makes sense say 50k pw and you can pay players from that so some maybe on 3k some 2k until you reach your limits.

It's slightly worrying that our wage cap makes us a less attractive prospect than Chesterfield like with Eoin Doyle!

soproni1
29-04-2014, 01:30 PM
When we talk of having unrealistic expectations I think that only comes from seeing the players perform well at some stage then their levels dropping off. If we had a team full of boys who just plain couldnt play then there wouldn't be any expectation. To expect professional footballers to do their job to the best of their ability every day isn't unrealistic.

hibIBZ
29-04-2014, 01:31 PM
Was going to go on Saturday (first game for a while, been working weekends) but tbh I'm not sure why I should. It looks I me like it's my fault we have poor players signed by inept managers and I'm afraid my prescence will frighten the poor wee lambs. How can people blame the supporters? We have had fantastic support at times over the past few years such as Kilmarnock in the cup, New Years derby and even the malmo game. The fans are frustrated and that frustration can boil over, but we have been generally rotten for the last five years. What do thy expect to happen? Sit back and say "at least we've got a nice stadium" as our opponents score again

Bronson
29-04-2014, 01:35 PM
It's slightly worrying that our wage cap makes us a less attractive prospect than Chesterfield like with Eoin Doyle!

In all fairness, Doyle wanted to stay but wasn't getting a new contract, he was more let go than anything else.

Captain Trips
29-04-2014, 01:35 PM
It's slightly worrying that our wage cap makes us a less attractive prospect than Chesterfield like with Eoin Doyle!

I do not believe there is one, what PF is said to have said about it does not for make sense based on some fees paid and what looking to pay to bring in Leigh, so I question the validity of all the information that is meant to have been said.

Fergus52
29-04-2014, 01:37 PM
My mate sent me this analysis from SportingIntelligence.com (this is my first attempt to attach a spreadsheet file here so hope it works!)
Here are the first 5 teams:-



Celtic
Hearts
Aberdeen
Hibernian
Dundee United


2012/13
22103
3206
3033
2565
2125










2011/12
21253
5305
2906
2804
2503










2010/11
20457
6310
3002
3322
2513










Average first team player weekly wage (£)












This dispels the "wage cap2 theory.....

12493

I used to always post a similiar table, but I realised that when there's no info on how the data was calculated or where it came from then it's not entirely credible.

they could just be averaging out the staff budgets posted on each clubs accounts, which would not be correct.

jeffers
29-04-2014, 01:39 PM
In all fairness, Doyle wanted to stay but wasn't getting a new contract, he was more let go than anything else.

PF wanted to keep him and a new deal was offered, Chesterfield offered double what we did.

Bronson
29-04-2014, 01:44 PM
PF wanted to keep him and a new deal was offered, Chesterfield offered double what we did.

Surely not, where are you hearing that?

Cameron1875
29-04-2014, 01:46 PM
Everything that Fenlon says in the OP is undone by his "unrealistic expectations" comment. I find that really insulting to Hibs supporters as its just totally untrue.

We all might have our disagreements with one another on here but I think we are all united when saying we shouldn't be:


Horsed in a cup final by biggest rivals
Scottish aggregate defeat in Europe
Losing 2 games in a row to a Hearts side relegated before a ball was kicked


Its not as if we demand top 2/3 positions every year either so I feel him and other managers trying to lower our expectations smacks of them just covering up their ability to get Hibs finishing where we SHOULD be.

jeffers
29-04-2014, 01:48 PM
Surely not, where are you hearing that?

Same source. I don't know the actual figures, but he wasn't on big money with us.

VivaHiberña
29-04-2014, 01:48 PM
Can we nip this wage cap chat in the bud now, before it becomes a .net FACT?

No one getting more than £1800/week does not mean that that is the wage cap, if there even is one.




In other news, I heard from Colin Calderwood that RP makes everyone take their shoes off before they're allowed into his office. Ronaldo's agent walked away at that point after having already agreed £1500/week on the phone. FACT. :stirrer:

easty
29-04-2014, 01:51 PM
Can we nip this wage cap chat in the bud now, before it becomes a .net FACT?

No one getting more than £1800/week does not mean that that is the wage cap, if there even is one.




In other news, I heard from Colin Calderwood that RP makes everyone take their shoes off before they're allowed into his office. Ronaldo's agent walked away at that point after having already agreed £1500/week on the phone. FACT. :stirrer:

What position does Ronaldos agent play? :wink:

Deansy
29-04-2014, 01:52 PM
'He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs'

1 - When PF was interviewed for the job (presumably he did his homework on us and the results/stats are freely available ?) so what kind of 'realistic expectation' did he tell RP he felt he could achieve if offered the job ??

2 - We do get on the players backs but after the best part of 2 decades watching inept, gutless, unprofessional etc dross, it's no wonder. Hasn't helped that it coincided with 'Scotland's Shame Mark II' at the PBS, albeit illegally/imorally, acting the 'Big-team' guff.

Geo_1875
29-04-2014, 01:55 PM
Guesswork I guess from us but £3k pw at Wolves sounds very plausible and after a good season he could expect more if he moved this is why I am doubting the wage cap part as it isnt making sense. A wage cap in entirety makes sense say 50k pw and you can pay players from that so some maybe on 3k some 2k until you reach your limits.

As far as I'm aware that is exactly how the player wage budget works. Only problem is it falls apart when you decide to pay more to some players the others get restless and greedy. Next thing you know their agents are knocking on the door. If you give in you end up like we did 15-16 years ago, too many average players filling out an average squad but taking top wages out the pot.

JimBHibees
29-04-2014, 01:56 PM
'He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs'

1 - When PF was interviewed for the job (presumably he did his homework on us and the results/stats are freely available ?) so what kind of 'realistic expectation' did he tell RP he felt he could achieve if offered the job ??

2 - We do get on the players backs but after the best part of 2 decades watching inept, gutless, unprofessional etc dross, it's no wonder. Hasn't helped that it coincided with 'Scotland's Shame Mark II' at the PBS, albeit illegally/imorally, acting the 'Big-team' guff.

I think there is a huge difference between showing some frustration and screaming abuse at individual players. It has never helped and never will of course they are professionals and should be able to deal with it to some degree however it must be hugely difficult at times especially when on a poor run and confidence is low. I wish the fans put as much energy into having a pop at opposition players, they must love playing at ER.

MurrayfieldHibs
29-04-2014, 01:58 PM
I used to always post a similiar table, but I realised that when there's no info on how the data was calculated or where it came from then it's not entirely credible.

they could just be averaging out the staff budgets posted on each clubs accounts, which would not be correct.

If you look at Sportingintelligence.com they claim to have stripped out other costs and claim this is player wages only.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
29-04-2014, 01:59 PM
PF wanted to keep him and a new deal was offered, Chesterfield offered double what we did.

Heard that aswell. He was on "buttons" supposedly.

The Sea-gull
29-04-2014, 02:00 PM
PF wanted to keep him and a new deal was offered, Chesterfield offered double what we did.

You seem to have a more credible source than me but I heard Doyle was offered another year but only on the same wage he was already on as it was felt he'd only done enough to warrant this i.e. had done enough to warrant another year but hadn't done enough to suggest he was going to be an SPL star for years to come, which to me was about right based on his performances since he joined. He felt he had done enough to warrant a wee raise. Hibs said no (dunno if it was PF or the board that made the decision, probably a combination of the two) and wouldn't budge on the terms so he went elsewhere.

easty
29-04-2014, 02:01 PM
Heard that aswell. He was on "buttons" supposedly.

I'd have kept him on buttons. He was nowt better than average, and we dont miss him.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
29-04-2014, 02:04 PM
I'd have kept him on buttons. He was nowt better than average, and we dont miss him.

To be honest I'd rather have him than Collins at this moment in time...

jeffers
29-04-2014, 02:05 PM
You seem to have a more credible source than me but I heard Doyle was offered another year but only on the same wage he was already on as it was felt he'd only done enough to warrant this i.e. had done enough to warrant another year but hadn't done enough to suggest he was going to be an SPL star for years to come, which to me was about right based on his performances since he joined. He felt he had done enough to warrant a wee raise. Hibs said no (dunno if it was PF or the board that made the decision, probably a combination of the two) and wouldn't budge on the terms so he went elsewhere.

TBh I can't remember if I was told we offered him the same as his previous contract or slightly more, only that he wasn't on a lot and Chesterfield offered double.

Pete
29-04-2014, 02:07 PM
To be honest I'd rather have him than Collins at this moment in time...

Can you imagine Doyle playing up front on his own?

Time seems to have been very kind to a player who everyone used to think was a good tryer but ultimately mince.

Bostonhibby
29-04-2014, 02:09 PM
Unrealistic expectations FFS, did he say anywhere what he felt would have been a realistic expectation of him then?

He emptied a few but my goldfish would have spotted who had to go and why, the 2 cup finals were fair enough but enough said about what happened when we got there - they simply masked eye bleeding league performances and probably saved him being sacked earlier.

I was one of the last to call for his head as well - must be losing my touch:wink:

jeffers
29-04-2014, 02:11 PM
Can you imagine Doyle playing up front on his own?

Time seems to have been very kind to a player who everyone used to think was a good tryer but ultimately mince.

I think you are being pretty harsh on Doyle. I wasn't disappointed that he left, but he's certainly better than the players signed in the summer to replace him.

IWasThere2016
29-04-2014, 02:12 PM
I used to always post a similiar table, but I realised that when there's no info on how the data was calculated or where it came from then it's not entirely credible.

they could just be averaging out the staff budgets posted on each clubs accounts, which would not be correct.

:agree: Seriously flawed IMHO.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
29-04-2014, 02:12 PM
Can you imagine Doyle playing up front on his own?

Time seems to have been very kind to a player who everyone used to think was a good tryer but ultimately mince.

Atleast he would have stuck away Collins' sitter on Sunday.

truehibernian
29-04-2014, 02:14 PM
As fans we (or at least I) expected little from Pat and he gave us even less, nice of him to shift the blame from himself to the supporters for the players lack of performance.

The Stuart McCall comment is an odd one. Did we ask him to come to us?

I better put it out there that I have no interest in ever dating Miranda Kerr.

McCall said this to Calderwood as well whilst on a coaching course down south I'm told - may be that it's a known view/position. I don't think it's a dig by SM at Hibs either, he talks very respectfully about us in the media and to others.

jeffers
29-04-2014, 02:15 PM
Just to be clear, I have only posted what I was told, it doesn't mean I necessarily believe or agree with all of it. Certainly the unrealistic expectations is not something I agree with, as fans I personally think we are very realistic in our expectations.

Bostonhibby
29-04-2014, 02:15 PM
Can you imagine Doyle playing up front on his own?

Time seems to have been very kind to a player who everyone used to think was a good tryer but ultimately mince.

Top scorer for Chesterfield in his first season - hasn't played in every game, they have just won promotion so he is doing okay there - yes I know we are at a much higher level............................we will eventually find whatever that level is when we stop plummeting like a stone.

Bostonhibby
29-04-2014, 02:16 PM
Just to be clear, I have only posted what I was told, it doesn't mean I necessarily believe or agree with all of it. Certainly the unrealistic expectations is not something I agree with, as fans I personally think we are very realistic in our expectations.

:thumbsup: understood and appreciate the posting.

Just Alf
29-04-2014, 02:19 PM
I can remember Butcher alluding to this when he was still with ICT and coming down to ER for a game. Sure it was last season and he said something along the lines of keeping the game tight for 20 mins or so and the fans will get restless.

FWIW, I think that part is spot on. As fans, we are restless and do get on at the players. I accept that we want a minimum performance level, but we won't ever help by abusing the team. Years of psychological research has taught us that, yet we persist with this perpetual abuse.

My tin hat is firmly on here, as I accept that my views will probably get some on here wound up, but it is what it is. If we support the team, they will derive more confidence from that.

not read past this post yet so not sure of the responses, but he didn't just allude to it... he came out and said it straight... he said "we" are like the opposition's 12th man on occasion and that teams know it and play for it.... it was the reason I was surprised he came here.

The Sea-gull
29-04-2014, 02:21 PM
:thumbsup: understood and appreciate the posting.

FAO Jeffers - What he said from me too.

s2hart
29-04-2014, 02:25 PM
Can we nip this wage cap chat in the bud now, before it becomes a .net FACT?

No one getting more than £1800/week does not mean that that is the wage cap, if there even is one.




In other news, I heard from Colin Calderwood that RP makes everyone take their shoes off before they're allowed into his office. Ronaldo's agent walked away at that point after having already agreed £1500/week on the phone. FACT. :stirrer:

I thought when McPake signed for us he was on at least double that or maybe I dreamt it, unless RP had a performance related clause in his contract and he now currently owes us money :dunno:

The Sea-gull
29-04-2014, 02:26 PM
Can you imagine Doyle playing up front on his own?

Time seems to have been very kind to a player who everyone used to think was a good tryer but ultimately mince.

I doubt we'd be in a much better position with Doyle here instead of Collins but IMHO Doyle did better for Hibs than Collins has done. That said, Doyle got to play as a part of a front 2 for a lot of the time until PF decided to go with 1 up front in the second half of last season and Doyle found himself on the bench or if he got a game, it was out wide.

Bayern Bru
29-04-2014, 02:29 PM
I doubt we'd be in a much better position with Doyle here instead of Collins but IMHO Doyle did better for Hibs than Collins has done. That said, Doyle got to play as a part of a front 2 for a lot of the time until PF decided to go with 1 up front in the second half of last season and Doyle found himself on the bench or if he got a game, it was out wide.

Doyle got to play with Griffiths.

How much of an impact did that have?

Nando™
29-04-2014, 02:31 PM
Whether you like it or not, the abuse that we as a support give our own players does absolutely nothing to make them play better, it in fact makes them perform worse. Whether or not you think they "should be able to take it", the fact is that some of them can't, and we are personally contributing to the poor performances of our players. The fact that opposition managers have openly stated that they know how we as a support treat our players and subsequently use that as a tactic against us is all there is to f***ing say.

If you think McGivern or Collins or Nelson or whoever else is pish then how is roaring ridiculous abuse at them going to help make them better? It's not their fault that they are being picked every week, it's not their fault that they are quality of player that we can currently afford. Look higher up and direct your anger towards the people who have brought this calibre of player to Easter Road and ask them why the standard isn't higher. Don't abuse the very people we rely on the most to win matches for us.

The confidence of our players is shot and we are part of the problem. Maybe if we tried helping them, especially at Easter Road, then maybe they wouldn't be so s***-scared to take an extra touch or try a defence-splitting pass now and again. If you can't see how we are directly involved in this then there is f*** all hope for you.

If you abuse our players, you are helping the opposition. This is a fact, cited by Terry Butcher himself and other managers.

Niffy
29-04-2014, 02:32 PM
The "unrealistic expectations" stuff does my head in...

Thanks though for the information.


Agreed , we expect to win the majority of home games, especially with Hearts bust & Rangers out.... are we out of order for that ????

Sir David Gray
29-04-2014, 02:34 PM
In all fairness, Doyle wanted to stay but wasn't getting a new contract, he was more let go than anything else.

Doyle chose to leave Hibs as he wanted a "fresh challenge".

He said so in a recent article with the Evening News.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/eoin-doyle-aims-for-promotion-as-former-club-hibs-slide-1-3377950

Nutmegged
29-04-2014, 02:42 PM
I have mentioned before that one of my mates is friendly with PF. They caught up recently, I asked my mate what he had to say. Some of it I have posted previously, some of it new. This is what PF told him (or for Blackpoolhibs benefit, what my mate said he told him :wink:):

The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw. PF can't understand where the money goes, but we have definitely lost out on players as other teams (Aberdeen was specifically mentioned) have offered players more. His opinion was that not only Aberdeen, but Dundee Utd were paying more than us. And despite getting to two consecutive cup finals his budget was cut for the following season.

He did resign, but received a pay off. He felt against Aberdeen that he had lost the dressing room, the players were no longer following his instructions and offered his resignation after that game - Petrie talked him out of it as we were playing Them in the league cup that coming mid-week. He had a good relationship with RP and his opinion was that RP put in a large number of hours on Hibs behalf, taking on more responsbility after Lindsay and Hyland left - if anything he did too much.

A fee of £285,000 had been agreed with Wolves to sign LG. RP was down there hoping to conclude the deal when they sacked their manager, Dean Saunders came in and he blocked the move. We tried again in the summer, Wolves were not prepared to sell him. We ended up paying just over half the £200,000 that's been quoted to sign LG's "replacement", James Collins.

He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.

Overall he loves Hibs, he felt we are a great club and everything should be in place for us to succeed, but something just isn't right - he inferred that this was down to the direction being set by those in charge, they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books. In his time at ER (and this was just a statement, not a dig) he met STF only twice.

I have posted what I was told, up to you if you believe it.

Great post mate, thanks very much for sharing, found it quite informative although I must admit there was nothing too much in it that I didn't have an educated guess about, shame about Leigh Griffiths and Dean Saunders, timing is everything in football
]

HKhibby
29-04-2014, 02:42 PM
To be honest mate, I dont think anything Pat Fenlon says, about anything, ever, will make me happy. I'd probably nit-pick at everything.

Misery and abject failure are the two things I'll remember about his time at Easter Road. I wish I could forget all about him.

I agree with this!...Fenlon should never been manager at ER at all, it showed that he did not have a clue with team selections, post match interviews etc..dug himself a deeper hole always!

If infact any of this is true what he supposedly has said and spoken out, it only confirms just about what everyone already knowes with both The Leigh Griffiths thing and with RP being how he is, which we know...which again is why Fenlon was at ER in the first place....cheap option!

easty
29-04-2014, 02:43 PM
Atleast he would have stuck away Collins' sitter on Sunday.

Would he? Doyle managed to connect with the ball in the Scottish Cup final against Celtic from a similar position, but header it straight at the keeper.

Heisenberg
29-04-2014, 02:47 PM
Would he? Doyle managed to connect with the ball in the Scottish Cup final against Celtic from a similar position, but header it straight at the keeper.

Seriously? Those chances are nowhere near the same ffs.

The Sea-gull
29-04-2014, 02:51 PM
Doyle got to play with Griffiths.

How much of an impact did that have?

Don't know, yes he was lucky to have such a proflici partner to play off and probably benefitted from this in the form of a few goals for himself. I'm sure he played his part in a few for LG too. I just reckon, even taking the fact that he played with LG, Doyle was a better performer for Hibs than Collins. Still not great but better than Collins.

Just Alf
29-04-2014, 02:54 PM
Whether you like it or not, the abuse that we as a support give our own players does absolutely nothing to make them play better, it in fact makes them perform worse. Whether or not you think they "should be able to take it", the fact is that some of them can't, and we are personally contributing to the poor performances of our players. The fact that opposition managers have openly stated that they know how we as a support treat our players and subsequently use that as a tactic against us is all there is to f***ing say.

If you think McGivern or Collins or Nelson or whoever else is pish then how is roaring ridiculous abuse at them going to help make them better? It's not their fault that they are being picked every week, it's not their fault that they are quality of player that we can currently afford. Look higher up and direct your anger towards the people who have brought this calibre of player to Easter Road and ask them why the standard isn't higher. Don't abuse the very people we rely on the most to win matches for us.

The confidence of our players is shot and we are part of the problem. Maybe if we tried helping them, especially at Easter Road, then maybe they wouldn't be so s***-scared to take an extra touch or try a defence-splitting pass now and again. If you can't see how we are directly involved in this then there is f*** all hope for you.

If you abuse our players, you are helping the opposition. This is a fact, cited by Terry Butcher himself and other managers.

Oh come on now!.....

Next folk will be wondering why players seem to be better before the come here then magically improve when they leave.... Oh wait....... :-(

Craig_in_Prague
29-04-2014, 02:56 PM
I'm not sure the 'abuse' we give players is any worse than other clubs, nor as bad as people make out,
However - I don't get why fans do it at all.

On here is fine, its just a forum and means nowt really.

on match days, I'd rather be quiet or just leave, than shout abuse.
Makes no sense whatsoever, these angry men should also just leave, or Shut the F up.

Sir David Gray
29-04-2014, 03:00 PM
I'm not sure the 'abuse' we give players is any worse than other clubs, nor as bad as people make out,
However - I don't get why fans do it at all.

On here is fine, its just a forum and means nowt really.

on match days, I'd rather be quiet or just leave, than shout abuse.
Makes no sense whatsoever, these angry men should also just leave, or Shut the F up.

:agree: I've never understood those who boo and shout obscenities at players at half time and then cheer and clap 15 minutes later as they reappear for the second half. :confused:

I've only ever booed a Hibs team once in my entire life and it was several years ago. I would almost certainly say that I would never do it again as I just don't see the point.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
29-04-2014, 03:02 PM
Would he? Doyle managed to connect with the ball in the Scottish Cup final against Celtic from a similar position, but header it straight at the keeper.

Atleast he actually connected with it and got it on target. Joking aside, we should have been 1-0 up from it.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
29-04-2014, 03:04 PM
Whether you like it or not, the abuse that we as a support give our own players does absolutely nothing to make them play better, it in fact makes them perform worse. Whether or not you think they "should be able to take it", the fact is that some of them can't, and we are personally contributing to the poor performances of our players. The fact that opposition managers have openly stated that they know how we as a support treat our players and subsequently use that as a tactic against us is all there is to f***ing say.

If you think McGivern or Collins or Nelson or whoever else is pish then how is roaring ridiculous abuse at them going to help make them better? It's not their fault that they are being picked every week, it's not their fault that they are quality of player that we can currently afford. Look higher up and direct your anger towards the people who have brought this calibre of player to Easter Road and ask them why the standard isn't higher. Don't abuse the very people we rely on the most to win matches for us.

The confidence of our players is shot and we are part of the problem. Maybe if we tried helping them, especially at Easter Road, then maybe they wouldn't be so s***-scared to take an extra touch or try a defence-splitting pass now and again. If you can't see how we are directly involved in this then there is f*** all hope for you.

If you abuse our players, you are helping the opposition. This is a fact, cited by Terry Butcher himself and other managers.

:agree:

Fergus52
29-04-2014, 03:08 PM
Whether you like it or not, the abuse that we as a support give our own players does absolutely nothing to make them play better, it in fact makes them perform worse. Whether or not you think they "should be able to take it", the fact is that some of them can't, and we are personally contributing to the poor performances of our players. The fact that opposition managers have openly stated that they know how we as a support treat our players and subsequently use that as a tactic against us is all there is to f***ing say.

If you think McGivern or Collins or Nelson or whoever else is pish then how is roaring ridiculous abuse at them going to help make them better? It's not their fault that they are being picked every week, it's not their fault that they are quality of player that we can currently afford. Look higher up and direct your anger towards the people who have brought this calibre of player to Easter Road and ask them why the standard isn't higher. Don't abuse the very people we rely on the most to win matches for us.

The confidence of our players is shot and we are part of the problem. Maybe if we tried helping them, especially at Easter Road, then maybe they wouldn't be so s***-scared to take an extra touch or try a defence-splitting pass now and again. If you can't see how we are directly involved in this then there is f*** all hope for you.

If you abuse our players, you are helping the opposition. This is a fact, cited by Terry Butcher himself and other managers.

:top marks

Fergus52
29-04-2014, 03:09 PM
I'm not sure the 'abuse' we give players is any worse than other clubs, nor as bad as people make out,
However - I don't get why fans do it at all.

On here is fine, its just a forum and means nowt really.

on match days, I'd rather be quiet or just leave, than shout abuse.
Makes no sense whatsoever, these angry men should also just leave, or Shut the F up.

when 2 seperate managers of other clubs have mentioned it I really doubt that it is

offshorehibby
29-04-2014, 03:38 PM
Whether you like it or not, the abuse that we as a support give our own players does absolutely nothing to make them play better, it in fact makes them perform worse. Whether or not you think they "should be able to take it", the fact is that some of them can't, and we are personally contributing to the poor performances of our players. The fact that opposition managers have openly stated that they know how we as a support treat our players and subsequently use that as a tactic against us is all there is to f***ing say.

If you think McGivern or Collins or Nelson or whoever else is pish then how is roaring ridiculous abuse at them going to help make them better? It's not their fault that they are being picked every week, it's not their fault that they are quality of player that we can currently afford. Look higher up and direct your anger towards the people who have brought this calibre of player to Easter Road and ask them why the standard isn't higher. Don't abuse the very people we rely on the most to win matches for us.

The confidence of our players is shot and we are part of the problem. Maybe if we tried helping them, especially at Easter Road, then maybe they wouldn't be so s***-scared to take an extra touch or try a defence-splitting pass now and again. If you can't see how we are directly involved in this then there is f*** all hope for you.

If you abuse our players, you are helping the opposition. This is a fact, cited by Terry Butcher himself and other managers.

I've been saying this for ages now. There's always a debate going on here that rod's to blame the blooming managers to blame but us fans are great and it can't have anything do do with us shouting and bawling at the players.


I'm not sure the 'abuse' we give players is any worse than other clubs, nor as bad as people make out,
However - I don't get why fans do it at all.

On here is fine, its just a forum and means nowt really.

on match days, I'd rather be quiet or just leave, than shout abuse.
Makes no sense whatsoever, these angry men should also just leave, or Shut the F up.

Some of the venomous abuse you hear getting hurled at the players is ridiculous. If you think hurling obscenities at your own players makes for a good working environment, well.
as stated elsewhere other managers in the league play on this when coming to ER.

leggeto
29-04-2014, 04:08 PM
Sounds believable to me he's an honest guy pat,a change at the top is what's needed and I think something will happen at the start of next season,the bit about trying to figure out if we want to be a big club sounds spot on,we need to try harder to keep our star men and stop being a feeder team to the old and infirm

Beefster
29-04-2014, 04:10 PM
For someone who resigned because he wasn't up to the job, Fenlon seems a touch bitter about it.

edinburghhibee
29-04-2014, 04:17 PM
:agree: I've never understood those who boo and shout obscenities at players at half time and then cheer and clap 15 minutes later as they reappear for the second half. :confused: I've only ever booed a Hibs team once in my entire life and it was several years ago. I would almost certainly say that I would never do it again as I just don't see the point.

Each to their own of course but I'll admit that I will boo hibs off the park if I feel they haven't tried a leg or continually hoof the ball into the air when there's an easy 4 yard pass on. I will also clap the team when they return after half time as they come back with a clean slate.

I will however never scream abuse at one individual player for mistakes. The abuse that maybury gets from the east has been disgusting on occasions. It is the same with vine and Collins. If we can cut out this part then I think we are a fairly supportive set of fans.

Saorsa
29-04-2014, 04:24 PM
Unrealistic expectations :hilarious

As one of the five biggest clubs in Scotland I never expect tae finish in the top six mair than once every five years, I dinnae expect an average league placing above seven or eight. I never expect tae win the Scottish cup. I expect tae get humped by average teams every week with a fraction of our resources. I dinnae even expect a team that will compete in maist games and I only expect tae win one derby in every ten or fifteen.

Have I lowered my expectations enough? :rolleyes:

Hibercelona
29-04-2014, 04:43 PM
Pats right. Our expectation levels are through the roof. Challenging the likes of Motherwell and ICT should be a dream for us, not a reality.

We really are an ungrateful bunch of sods.

Elephant Stone
29-04-2014, 04:45 PM
Pats right. Our expectation levels are through the roof. Challenging the likes of Motherwell and ICT should be a dream for us, not a reality.

We really are an ungrateful bunch of sods.

Motherwell and ICT haven't had a new squad per season for the last three seasons.

Hibercelona
29-04-2014, 04:50 PM
Motherwell and ICT haven't had a new squad per season for the last three seasons.

You don't say.

Elephant Stone
29-04-2014, 05:02 PM
You don't say.

Then why should we expect to challenge them right away?

silverhibee
29-04-2014, 05:05 PM
Heard that aswell. He was on "buttons" supposedly.

3 figure sum.

The_Horde
29-04-2014, 05:06 PM
The "unrealistic expectations" stuff does my head in...

Thanks though for the information.

Unrealistic expectations for a club that pays their top player £1800 a week is how I read that.

AllyF
29-04-2014, 05:07 PM
Motherwell and ICT haven't had a new squad per season for the last three seasons.

Hold on. Did Inverness not sign an entire new squad at the start of this season? 7 players in one day if I recall correctly.

Elephant Stone
29-04-2014, 05:10 PM
Hold on. Did Inverness not sign an entire new squad at the start of this season? 7 players in one day if I recall correctly.

They've had a core to their team for a while and had a management team in place for even longer. Not even comparable to our situation.

HFC 0-7
29-04-2014, 05:12 PM
I can remember Butcher alluding to this when he was still with ICT and coming down to ER for a game. Sure it was last season and he said something along the lines of keeping the game tight for 20 mins or so and the fans will get restless.

FWIW, I think that part is spot on. As fans, we are restless and do get on at the players. I accept that we want a minimum performance level, but we won't ever help by abusing the team. Years of psychological research has taught us that, yet we persist with this perpetual abuse.

My tin hat is firmly on here, as I accept that my views will probably get some on here wound up, but it is what it is. If we support the team, they will derive more confidence from that.

thats something managers, fans and pundits say a lot about other teams. It's not just a hibs thing.

RIP
29-04-2014, 05:19 PM
On atmosphere

In 2009 we initiated the East Stand Singing Section. In 2010 we agreed to occupy Section 43 of the East Stand. In June we started Hibs12thMan. The following year the guys in that area started Sect43.

All to improve the support for the team. Went well for 2 years. Destroyed by the poor product on show

Can see it starting up again in a better climate

LaMotta
29-04-2014, 05:30 PM
Would he? Doyle managed to connect with the ball in the Scottish Cup final against Celtic from a similar position, but header it straight at the keeper.

What a ludicrous comparison:bitchy:

easty
29-04-2014, 05:34 PM
What a ludicrous comparison:bitchy:

Ludicrous! Got to love a .net over-reaction.

3pm
29-04-2014, 05:37 PM
Keep your dignity Pat....stop talking about it!

green day
29-04-2014, 05:40 PM
;3989613']Unrealistic expectations for a club that pays their top player £1800 a week is how I read that.

Aye, £90k basic plus win bonuses is chicken feed, of course......

Eyrie
29-04-2014, 05:47 PM
I suspect the £1800 is simply the highest wage we currently pay rather than being a maximum limit, and will only be the basic wage before bonuses for appearances, wins, league placings, cup runs etc. To my mind that is fair enough and players should be on performance related pay because if they're not performing then they don't deserve more and if they are then they should be rewarded.

Thecat23
29-04-2014, 05:50 PM
They've had a core to their team for a while and had a management team in place for even longer. Not even comparable to our situation.

That don't need to change managers all the time though as they seem to appoint the right ones.

Our clown of a chairmen has failed in that department for to long.

3pm
29-04-2014, 05:52 PM
That don't need to change managers all the time though as they seem to appoint the right ones.

Our clown of a chairmen has failed in that department for to long.

You should see what Petrie was saying about you starting the match thread on Sunday! 😄

Thecat23
29-04-2014, 05:52 PM
You should see what Petrie was saying about you starting the match thread on Sunday! 😄

Haha, I didn't start it though it was merged with someone who got in before me ;)

Elephant Stone
29-04-2014, 06:01 PM
That don't need to change managers all the time though as they seem to appoint the right ones.

Our clown of a chairmen has failed in that department for to long.

I'm talking about our expectations of Fenlon after talking over from Calderwood.

LaMotta
29-04-2014, 06:52 PM
Ludicrous! Got to love a .net over-reaction.

I see. The word ridiculous is not an over reaction, but the world ludicrous is.

Getting back to the point - those chances were absolutely nothing like each other. And Doyle, for all his averageness displayed far more quality in a Hibs shirt than Collins.

eastterrace
29-04-2014, 07:40 PM
:agree: I've never understood those who boo and shout obscenities at players at half time and then cheer and clap 15 minutes later as they reappear for the second half. :confused:

I've only ever booed a Hibs team once in my entire life and it was several years ago. I would almost certainly say that I would never do it again as I just don't see the point.

so it was several years ago you booed , that kinda coincides when we started to go pish. was it a big boo as maybe just maybe it was your fault we are still pish now.:wink:

Jonnyboy
29-04-2014, 07:44 PM
For someone who resigned because he wasn't up to the job, Fenlon seems a touch bitter about it.

Indeed

Baldy Foghorn
29-04-2014, 07:48 PM
PF thinks we have too high expectations?????? Seriously?????

GTF you hopeless wee tube:soapbox:

Scouse Hibee
29-04-2014, 07:49 PM
Interesting views and insights from PF.

Aldo
29-04-2014, 07:53 PM
Thanks for the snippet.

As for expectations at the start of the season every manager will want to win every single game.... Simple as that. Win the league, and both cups... No I'm not drunk or on pills but you have to aim high in my books.

Don't go shouting we are going to do this or that just go out and do the business on the park.

It's about installing a belief and a winning mentality for me.

Alfred E Newman
29-04-2014, 08:06 PM
I suppose it's unrealistic to expect to beat Hearts occasionally.

Sir David Gray
29-04-2014, 08:27 PM
so it was several years ago you booed , that kinda coincides when we started to go pish. was it a big boo as maybe just maybe it was your fault we are still pish now.:wink:

I believe it was the St Johnstone League Cup semi in 2007 as it entered extra time.

A few months later and the decline started so I guess I do need to take my share of responsibility! :greengrin

eastterrace
29-04-2014, 08:30 PM
I believe it was the St Johnstone League Cup semi in 2007 as it entered extra time.

A few months later and the decline started so I guess I do need to take my share of responsibility! :greengrin


:aok:

Heisenberg
29-04-2014, 08:39 PM
PF can GTF.

loanheadhibby
29-04-2014, 09:11 PM
It's still £93,600 a year. Not bad if there is bonuses on top. Still would be good if we had flexibility to offer our top targets and best current players a higher weekly wage by signing less players and more quality.

It worries me that any of these wasters is getting 1800 pw! Deary me.

Cropley10
29-04-2014, 09:28 PM
We made the Scottish cup final, twice.

That was a big plus.

Not really. Getting beat 5-1 wasn't a plus and had we not beat Falkirk in the second half Fat Penlon would have been emptied.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
29-04-2014, 09:33 PM
Not really. Getting beat 5-1 wasn't a plus and had we not beat Falkirk in the second half Fat Penlon would have been emptied.

:agree: Anyone who thinks getting to two finals were a success, need their heed looked at.

MyJo
29-04-2014, 09:46 PM
I suspect the £1800 is simply the highest wage we currently pay rather than being a maximum limit, and will only be the basic wage before bonuses for appearances, wins, league placings, cup runs etc. To my mind that is fair enough and players should be on performance related pay because if they're not performing then they don't deserve more and if they are then they should be rewarded.

:agree: its likely that there is about a £100k a year wage cap on basic salary for players and this will be supplemented with appearance fees & win bonuses etc plus annual bonus payments for league placings and cup runs/wins etc as well as other benefits like company cars, pensions, medical & Life insurance etc.

its the medias obsession with putting a weekly figure on the astronomical wages players earn in the EPL that makes people think like that and pay too much attention to how much we pay "per week"

cleanyman
29-04-2014, 09:54 PM
:agree: Anyone who thinks getting to two finals were a success, need their heed looked at.

If you're a Hibs fan, two Scottish Cup Finals is a success.

Closest we've got to winning the thing in donkeys.

Iceman1875
29-04-2014, 10:32 PM
Very interesting and thanks to the original poster for sharing. I was certainly under the impression our top earners ie McPake, Thomson, Robertson and maybe Williams were on between 2-3k per week.

Considering Aberdeen, Dundee United and to be frank, every league one club will out pay us for decent players, I can see why we struggle to get deals over the line.

Take Kane Hemmings, linked with us on another thread, he will be paid what at Cowdenbeath, £700pw tops? Given the choice of Hibs at £1500pw or travel 300 miles south and earn £3000 a week. playing in stadiums with little attendances traveling the length of England twice a week on a bus....Money talks.


Sky sports understands that Hearts are going down.

(((Fergus)))
29-04-2014, 10:35 PM
Everything you said there is completely correct, but it'll never catch on.

I'm pretty sure a lot of folk go to Easter Road just to vent

No need for fake "support" when nothing good is happening on the pitch but would be wise to just keep quiet until it does.


:agree: Anyone who thinks getting to two finals were a success, need their heed looked at.

You think not getting to two finals would be more successful? I'm sure there were financial benefits if nothing else.

The_Horde
29-04-2014, 11:00 PM
The thing I've taken from this thread is PF resigning because he believed the players weren't doing what he asked of them. He signed most of these players.

Explains a lot about their attitudes and what's happening at the moment.

It also explains a lot about the current culture of our club. Where the players think they can just ignore the managers input because they'll most likely just get flung or resign anyway.

Player power rules at hibs it seems.

basehibby
30-04-2014, 01:35 AM
I have mentioned before that one of my mates is friendly with PF. They caught up recently, I asked my mate what he had to say. Some of it I have posted previously, some of it new. This is what PF told him (or for Blackpoolhibs benefit, what my mate said he told him :wink:):

The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw. PF can't understand where the money goes, but we have definitely lost out on players as other teams (Aberdeen was specifically mentioned) have offered players more. His opinion was that not only Aberdeen, but Dundee Utd were paying more than us. And despite getting to two consecutive cup finals his budget was cut for the following season.

He did resign, but received a pay off. He felt against Aberdeen that he had lost the dressing room, the players were no longer following his instructions and offered his resignation after that game - Petrie talked him out of it as we were playing Them in the league cup that coming mid-week. He had a good relationship with RP and his opinion was that RP put in a large number of hours on Hibs behalf, taking on more responsbility after Lindsay and Hyland left - if anything he did too much.

A fee of £285,000 had been agreed with Wolves to sign LG. RP was down there hoping to conclude the deal when they sacked their manager, Dean Saunders came in and he blocked the move. We tried again in the summer, Wolves were not prepared to sell him. We ended up paying just over half the £200,000 that's been quoted to sign LG's "replacement", James Collins.

He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.

Overall he loves Hibs, he felt we are a great club and everything should be in place for us to succeed, but something just isn't right - he inferred that this was down to the direction being set by those in charge, they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books. In his time at ER (and this was just a statement, not a dig) he met STF only twice.

I have posted what I was told, up to you if you believe it.

Thanks for the input Jeffers - it's interesting to get an insight from a former manager's POV albeit second hand. All sounds pretty feasible - from missing out on signings to moaning fans affecting the players - both serious problems IMO.

I heartily dispute anyone who disputes that our legion of whingers in the support don't have a negative effect on the team - I have personally witnessed a number of Hibs players' games crumble as their confidence wilted in the face of withering abuse from their own fans. These players are usually pretty limited in the first place and have gone from bad to worse in the face of a barrage of abuse - and that's where the unrealistic expectations come in for me. Realistically, like most SPL clubs, we are always likely to have some fairly limited players on the books and whereas at some clubs this is taken on board nay embraced by fans so that cult heroes are born, at Hibs we seem more likely to tear them to shreds than to boost them up and get the best out of them.

The apparent wage ceiling/restrictions is also a problem IMO - a team with a spine of outstanding players will always be better than a team of average Joes as the better players raise the bar and help those around them to improve so it's imperative that a manager should have sufficient flexibility to pay bigger money to the players he wants to build his team around. It's a financial balancing act alright, but one we are apparently getting wrong. I tend to blame this on over caution stemming from Rod's innate accountant's sensibilities. While it's tempting to blame the failure to land Griffiths on this trait as well, if the gen from Jeffers is right it sounds like we were just plain unlucky in that instance.

basehibby
30-04-2014, 01:45 AM
If you're a Hibs fan, two Scottish Cup Finals is a success.

Closest we've got to winning the thing in donkeys.

:agree: Even if getting slain by the Yamtards was disastrous, both the cup runs were a massive boost to the club. Kept everyone going to the end of what were two very disappointing league seasons and must have earned the club a badly needed couple of million quid extra funds.

Folk trying to make Fenlon's successes in getting to two finals into a stick to beat him with could give lemons lessons in bitterness.

147lothian
30-04-2014, 01:55 AM
Thanks to the OP it does make sad reading though, because it mean's were not going to catch A'deen and D'Utd, that's just being realistic because money does talk, take Goodwillie, D Utd took him on loan from Blackburn and agreed to pay half his wage, he was on 11k with Blackburn, he isn't worth that amount imo opinion, but it shows ambition, I just wonder what our budget is like compared to ICT, M'Well and St Johnstone? Do any of their highest earners go above 1,800 p/w?

Finally I have never gave a player abuse, don't see the point, and I don't like it when I hear it at Easter Road, but i've heard it at other grounds, so I don't think it's as bad as its made out to be by PF maybe the unrealistic expectations are more due to what we are paying against our competitors? Would be interesting if anyone had any info on how we compare in the budget to provincial clubs?

Russ
30-04-2014, 03:14 AM
I can remember Butcher alluding to this when he was still with ICT and coming down to ER for a game. Sure it was last season and he said something along the lines of keeping the game tight for 20 mins or so and the fans will get restless.

FWIW, I think that part is spot on. As fans, we are restless and do get on at the players. I accept that we want a minimum performance level, but we won't ever help by abusing the team. Years of psychological research has taught us that, yet we persist with this perpetual abuse.

My tin hat is firmly on here, as I accept that my views will probably get some on here wound up, but it is what it is. If we support the team, they will derive more confidence from that.
Spot on mate, everyone and his dog knows the kind of support we have.
It sickens me at times, but hey ***in ho we go regardless why the mouthpieces rant and rave about how much money we should spend to be a big team.

Beefster
30-04-2014, 05:56 AM
Thanks to the OP it does make sad reading though, because it mean's were not going to catch A'deen and D'Utd, that's just being realistic because money does talk, take Goodwillie, D Utd took him on loan from Blackburn and agreed to pay half his wage, he was on 11k with Blackburn, he isn't worth that amount imo opinion, but it shows ambition, I just wonder what our budget is like compared to ICT, M'Well and St Johnstone? Do any of their highest earners go above 1,800 p/w?

Finally I have never gave a player abuse, don't see the point, and I don't like it when I hear it at Easter Road, but i've heard it at other grounds, so I don't think it's as bad as its made out to be by PF maybe the unrealistic expectations are more due to what we are paying against our competitors? Would be interesting if anyone had any info on how we compare in the budget to provincial clubs?

No they didn't.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 08:19 AM
If you're a Hibs fan, two Scottish Cup Finals is a success.

Closest we've got to winning the thing in donkeys.

But we didn't win it though? Only if he won it would it be a seccess.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 08:21 AM
No need for fake "support" when nothing good is happening on the pitch but would be wise to just keep quiet until it does.



You think not getting to two finals would be more successful? I'm sure there were financial benefits if nothing else.

I am all for financial benefits but, the finals would have only been a success if we won them, and we didn't. We got humiliated by our biggest rivals and brushed aside by Celtic the next year.

Hibs7
30-04-2014, 08:22 AM
My mate sent me this analysis from SportingIntelligence.com (this is my first attempt to attach a spreadsheet file here so hope it works!)
Here are the first 5 teams:-



Celtic

Hearts
Aberdeen
Hibernian
Dundee United


2012/13

22103
3206
3033
2565
2125










2011/12
21253
5305
2906
2804
2503










2010/11
20457
6310
3002
3322
2513










Average first team player weekly wage (£)












This dispels the "wage cap2 theory.....

12493


So hearts are bust and still paying more than us .... Unbelievable. !

IberianHibernian
30-04-2014, 08:33 AM
:agree: Even if getting slain by the Yamtards was disastrous, both the cup runs were a massive boost to the club. Kept everyone going to the end of what were two very disappointing league seasons and must have earned the club a badly needed couple of million quid extra funds.

Folk trying to make Fenlon's successes in getting to two finals into a stick to beat him with could give lemons lessons in bitterness.Exactly . Particularly 2nd cup run in which every round was televised must have made a lot of money . Hard to calculate how much the Raith fiasco will have cost club this year .

Gettin' Auld
30-04-2014, 08:53 AM
What are those 'unrealistic expectations' that us Hibs fans have?

That kind of claim gets right on my wick........

We're not asking the players to go out and win the friggin league or go on a long European run. Our expectatations are similar to almost every other team in the league.

We want to see a team with some skill - Not Hoofers

We want to see defenders who can defend - Midfielders who can pass - And strikers who can get out of single friggin figures.

We want a team who's up for a scrap, who tries 100% for 90 mins and doesn't get brushed aside by most other teams.

Oh and winning more games at home than we lose would be a nice change.

Are those unrealistic?

spike220
30-04-2014, 08:58 AM
I liked Pat. But now he has gone. Cheerio. :bye:

Fergus52
30-04-2014, 09:06 AM
Ludicrous! Got to love a .net over-reaction.

it's not an overreaction, they were completely different chances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPknvzqGnY

go to 1:52, he should have done better, but it wasn't a complete sitter and forster made a great save, the way his body was positioned it would have been difficult to direct the ball much further to either side.

Now compare with collins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4DuU1PafrE

Fergus52
30-04-2014, 09:07 AM
I suppose it's unrealistic to expect to beat Hearts occasionally.

He went a whole season unbeaten against them.

Fergus52
30-04-2014, 09:11 AM
:agree: Anyone who thinks getting to two finals were a success, need their heed looked at.

ridiculous comment, if you think the word success is too strong, would you class it as an acheivement?

Hibrandenburg
30-04-2014, 09:13 AM
;3989988']The thing I've taken from this thread is PF resigning because he believed the players weren't doing what he asked of them. He signed most of these players.

Explains a lot about their attitudes and what's happening at the moment.

It also explains a lot about the current culture of our club. Where the players think they can just ignore the managers input because they'll most likely just get flung or resign anyway.

Player power rules at hibs it seems.

Been saying this for years and getting stick for it. Until it's sorted then no manager has a cat in hells chance of turning things round long term. The short sighted habit of sacking our managers every time it happens only feeds the fire.

Fergus52
30-04-2014, 09:13 AM
What are those 'unrealistic expectations' that us Hibs fans have?

That kind of claim gets right on my wick........

We're not asking the players to go out and win the friggin league or go on a long European run. Our expectatations are similar to almost every other team in the league.

We want to see a team with some skill - Not Hoofers

We want to see defenders who can defend - Midfielders who can pass - And strikers who can get out of single friggin figures.

We want a team who's up for a scrap, who tries 100% for 90 mins and doesn't get brushed aside by most other teams.

Oh and winning more games at home than we lose would be a nice change.

Are those unrealistic?

I would argue that for the most part, Fenlon's sqauad had the qualities i've put in bold.

the midfielder's could pass, just not forwards.

Bearders
30-04-2014, 09:34 AM
PF in frame as Lennons assistant manager

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 09:38 AM
ridiculous comment, if you think the word success is too strong, would you class it as an acheivement?

I meant to add 'they' cup finals. Getting horsed 5-1 and 3-0 is success? Only success if you win it.

cleanyman
30-04-2014, 09:45 AM
But we didn't win it though? Only if he won it would it be a seccess.

Considering our horrendous run in the tournament, two Scottish Cup Finals in a row is a success.

To be fair to him, his big cup record was very good. Didn't get pumped out by 1st division teams at home and gave us some memorable wins.

Other than that, meh.

Crossgates Hibs
30-04-2014, 09:49 AM
:agree: its likely that there is about a £100k a year wage cap on basic salary for players and this will be supplemented with appearance fees & win bonuses etc plus annual bonus payments for league placings and cup runs/wins etc as well as other benefits like company cars, pensions, medical & Life insurance etc.

its the medias obsession with putting a weekly figure on the astronomical wages players earn in the EPL that makes people think like that and pay too much attention to how much we pay "per week"


I don't care if they get 1800 pw that's a fantastic wage and certainly more than most deserve. It's four times what I get working shifts etc. what we lack is quality ie a Sauzee, Latapy, Zememma or Griffiths a player that can change a game. We need a couple of these players in our team real quality that are paid accordingly. If it means a few less Joe averages so be it. If other players aren't happy tough they are easy replaceable. Just now we haven't a single game changing player or a quality player that other teams wished they have. I look at Dundee United as a good example of this is John Rankin really a better player than when with Hibs? I'd say its because he has quality around him.

MrRobot
30-04-2014, 09:58 AM
I'd have kept him on buttons. He was nowt better than average, and we dont miss him.


I actually thought he was a good player. He was intelligent off the ball and having a bit more service, think he woulda scored a fair few more goals.

jacomo
30-04-2014, 10:04 AM
PF in frame as Lennons assistant manager

He'd love that.

Cropley10
30-04-2014, 10:30 AM
If you're a Hibs fan, two Scottish Cup Finals is a success.

Closest we've got to winning the thing in donkeys.

Except we didn't even come close to winning it at all on either occasion

cleanyman
30-04-2014, 10:37 AM
Except we didn't even come close to winning it at all on either occasion

We came closer than we have in many a year.

Thecat23
30-04-2014, 10:41 AM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

SlickShoes
30-04-2014, 10:48 AM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

As much as I enjoy the build up to the cup finals and the "day out" with family and friends I agree with you that getting to a cup final is not an achievement, only winning it is.

If we had won one of those cup final's then Pat could relagate us 3 times and some people would still be able to forgive him, however he didn't win us anything at all, qualifying for the UEFA cup first round -3 and getting pumped 9-0 on aggregate isn't really an achievement.

Paloschi
30-04-2014, 10:51 AM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

Agree 100%

They were just days out as far as I'm concerned. Tactics were honking in both finals and without LG and LG and Garry O' the year before we would not have got there. Pat Fenlon was a shocking manager that was lucky to have Griffiths in his squad. To call getting to two finals a success is exactly the type of loser, wee club mentality that the club has. We got to two finals but won NOTHING.

PeeJay
30-04-2014, 11:04 AM
There is no way on earth that losing 1-5 in a cup final to Hearts can be classified by any Hibs fan as a success ... and while I'm at it, who cares what Fenlon thinks!

jdships
30-04-2014, 11:09 AM
Interesting mention of Petrie/LG/Dean Saunders

A friend of my sons is married to a girl who is a secretary at Wolves and at the time she said Petrie was at Wolves ground twice in two weeks
PF has now confirmed that RP DID try to sign LG !!
:flag:

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 11:09 AM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

Exactly man. Those two cup finals were anything but success.

Peevemor
30-04-2014, 11:11 AM
Exactly man. Those two cup finals were anything but success.

Apart from the financial aspect.

MrRobot
30-04-2014, 11:11 AM
Also, im glad to see that nobody in this team is 'earning' more than £1800 a week.

tanfield
30-04-2014, 11:17 AM
I can remember Butcher alluding to this when he was still with ICT and coming down to ER for a game. Sure it was last season and he said something along the lines of keeping the game tight for 20 mins or so and the fans will get restless.

FWIW, I think that part is spot on. As fans, we are restless and do get on at the players. I accept that we want a minimum performance level, but we won't ever help by abusing the team. Years of psychological research has taught us that, yet we persist with this perpetual abuse.

My tin hat is firmly on here, as I accept that my views will probably get some on here wound up, but it is what it is. If we support the team, they will derive more confidence from that.

This!

AndySOL1875
30-04-2014, 11:17 AM
Sorry if this has been posted but was he referring to Leigh being on £1800 last season or was he talking about the highest earner this year? If the latter does anybody have an idea who that may be?!

IanM
30-04-2014, 11:18 AM
Also, im glad to see that nobody in this team is 'earning' more than £1800 a week.


this

we'll have to up this if we want to be competitive but a good mixture of experienced well paid players and youngsters might balance the books a bit

Speedway
30-04-2014, 11:19 AM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

Indeed, as the old saying goes, 'you show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.'

madhatter
30-04-2014, 11:21 AM
We came closer than we have in many a year.

As far as I'm concerned, you either win it or you don't. Reaching a final isn't something to cheer about as fans. Maybe from a financial point of view it is but from a supporters point of view, I want to see us winning it not just competing in the final (that brings me no long lasting joy what-so-ever).

stantonhibby
30-04-2014, 11:41 AM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!


I don't think anyone is happy just to get to the final win or lose and of course it's not a success if you lose. However having suffered through so many cup defeats over the years in early rounds and particularly at the semi final stage I do think it is an achievement getting to the final. Before the last two we had only made it twice in about 35 years (1979/2001). Miller, Mowbray, Collins, couldn't manage it. How Fenlon got that rag tag and bobtail team of loanees into that final I'll never know. Of course Leigh was a major factor but that's like saying that it's Stevie May who has got St J there this year and give no credit to Tommy Wright or the rest of the team ?
It goes without saying that if we knew we were going to get pumped in the final (especially 2012) we would rather not have got there but that's a nonsensical hypothetical argument. At the end of the day if we want to win that damn trophy we are going to have to keep getting to finals and yes perhaps suffer more heartache but hope that just one day it all clicks for us.

Craig_in_Prague
30-04-2014, 11:54 AM
I don't think anyone is happy just to get to the final win or lose and of course it's not a success if you lose. However having suffered through so many cup defeats over the years in early rounds and particularly at the semi final stage I do think it is an achievement getting to the final. Before the last two we had only made it twice in about 35 years (1979/2001). Miller, Mowbray, Collins, couldn't manage it. How Fenlon got that rag tag and bobtail team of loanees into that final I'll never know. Of course Leigh was a major factor but that's like saying that it's Stevie May who has got St J there this year and give no credit to Tommy Wright or the rest of the team ?
It goes without saying that if we knew we were going to get pumped in the final (especially 2012) we would rather not have got there but that's a nonsensical hypothetical argument. At the end of the day if we want to win that damn trophy we are going to have to keep getting to finals and yes perhaps suffer more heartache but hope that just one day it all clicks for us.

Have to agree with your post.
Whilst it's hard losing the final, getting there is still a relative success; And the more often we reach the final, the bigger chance we'll finally win the damn thing.

FWIW, D Utd nearly beat Celtic in the semi's last year; All ifs and buts and we'd probably have lost to them as well in the final, but getting Celtic (again) is always going to be extremely difficult task.

You need a nice draw and luck (St J had a relatively nice route), but the more we reach semi finals and finals, the more experience the club get with being on the big stage and eventually we'll embrace the occassions and not bottle it.

I also feel the Edinburgh cup final in 2012 should be a more regular thing, rather than one club "killing" the other, given it just never happens we meet at Hampden - well very rarely (in Hibs case, probably lucky us)... these realistically should happen 1x every 5 years or so.

Winning cups shouldn't be as such a 'high' as it is and likewise losing a final shouldn't be so devastating, It's pretty sad Hibs haven't punched their weight more - but we have to hope new era and mindset is roudn the corner; but critical we stay up of course.

Fergus52
30-04-2014, 11:57 AM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

So last year you'd rather have had the embarrassment of hearts beating us in the cup yet again, than the league champions beating us in the final?

some winners attitude that is :greengrin

Hibrandenburg
30-04-2014, 11:57 AM
My coffee mug has "Runners Up" printed on it so it must be classed as success. Erm.....Endof!

Bronson
30-04-2014, 12:02 PM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

Certainly not last season, that cup run gave me some of my best memories as a hibee, some great games.

Thecat23
30-04-2014, 12:05 PM
So last year you'd rather have had the embarrassment of hearts beating us in the cup yet again, than the league champions beating us in the final?

some winners attitude that is :greengrin

Touché

Ok second round ;D

dmc1875
30-04-2014, 12:06 PM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

They did...but to give him his due after around 30 minutes when he brought Sproule on he did change it. His tactics were all over the place, but when he changed it, we scored and had hearts on the back foot until HT. Then disaster straight from the re-start.

I agree though, if you had told me we would get humped so badly in both finals I would rather not have got there regardless of 'Europe' or the extra financial money made from the Hearts game.

mjhibby
30-04-2014, 12:29 PM
Strange. I'm surprised there is a wage cap. Why wouldn't we be more flexible?

As far as im led to believe there is no wage cap at er and the wage budget is the managers to spend.Mcpake and McGovern are on more than that or they wouldn't be at er.Fenlons budget was cut because we lost £1m in his first season but was the 4th highest in the league so why any team beats us to players over money ive never understood. Maybe his comment of where the money went was alluding to the non footballing side at hibs.

jeffers
30-04-2014, 12:30 PM
Sorry if this has been posted but was he referring to Leigh being on £1800 last season or was he talking about the highest earner this year? If the latter does anybody have an idea who that may be?!

No, he wasn't referring to LG, his contract was with Wolves and we paid a percentage of his salary while he was on loan. In terms of players we have under contract noone is getting more than £1800 pw. I took that to mean that was a limit we had set, but to encourage players to agree to that we paid them a signing on fee. I don't know what the plans were if we had been able to sign LG, even with a signing on fee I think he would have been worth a lot more than £1800 pw.

As to who is getting that I don't know and even if I had been told I wouldn't post it, I wouldn't want my salary posted on the internet. For all I know there may be a number of them on that.

Purple & Green
30-04-2014, 12:32 PM
they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books.

That reads to me like Big clubs don't balance the books. Oh wait, they don't do they?

stantonhibby
30-04-2014, 12:38 PM
As far as im led to believe there is no wage cap at er and the wage budget is the managers to spend.Mcpake and McGovern are on more than that or they wouldn't be at er.Fenlons budget was cut because we lost £1m in his first season but was the 4th highest in the league so why any team beats us to players over money ive never understood. Maybe his comment of where the money went was alluding to the non footballing side at hibs.


As has been alluded to before I think we need to add 3 or 4 quality players at a good salary rather than recruit say 7 or 8 journeymen at a half decent salary. Griffiths showed the difference of having just one quality player in the team and I would say Aberdeen's success this season is largely due to the fact they added the proven quality of Rooney, Flood , Robson to McGinn & Reynolds who were already there.

jeffers
30-04-2014, 12:46 PM
As far as im led to believe there is no wage cap at er and the wage budget is the managers to spend.Mcpake and McGovern are on more than that or they wouldn't be at er.Fenlons budget was cut because we lost £1m in his first season but was the 4th highest in the league so why any team beats us to players over money ive never understood. Maybe his comment of where the money went was alluding to the non footballing side at hibs.

I posted this a while ago and Blackpoolhibs and I debated it at the time, but again I will say what I was told. Shortly after he arrived PF said to RP that at previous clubs he managed he was in charge of the wage budget. When I asked what response he got I was told he was still waiting.

I was very surprised when I heard the figure of £1800 pw but it would explain why we miss out on players.

I don't have an issue if anyone chooses to dispute what I have posted, but everything I have said comes from a mate who is really friendly with PF.

147lothian
30-04-2014, 12:49 PM
As has been alluded to before I think we need to add 3 or 4 quality players at a good salary rather than recruit say 7 or 8 journeymen at a half decent salary. Griffiths showed the difference of having just one quality player in the team and I would say Aberdeen's success this season is largely due to the fact they added the proven quality of Rooney, Flood , Robson to McGinn & Reynolds who were already there.

Quality players win you football matches, were in the market with D Utd and A'deen and they pay 200 more a week, that's were they will end up this highest earner being on 1.800 p/w is a problem of ambition

VivaHiberña
30-04-2014, 02:04 PM
So hearts are bust and still paying more than us .... Unbelievable. !

Exactly.


unbelievable
ʌnbɪˈliːvəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: unbelievable


1.
not able to be believed; unlikely to be true.
"unbelievable or not, it happened"


synonyms:
incredible (https://www.google.co.uk/search?es_sm=93&biw=1366&bih=643&q=define+incredible&sa=X&ei=wgJhU5uHHrPH7AaXrIGoCA&ved=0CC0Q_SowAA), beyond belief, difficult to believe, scarcely credible,inconceivable (https://www.google.co.uk/search?es_sm=93&biw=1366&bih=643&q=define+inconceivable&sa=X&ei=wgJhU5uHHrPH7AaXrIGoCA&ved=0CC4Q_SowAA), unthinkable (https://www.google.co.uk/search?es_sm=93&biw=1366&bih=643&q=define+unthinkable&sa=X&ei=wgJhU5uHHrPH7AaXrIGoCA&ved=0CC8Q_SowAA), unimaginable (https://www.google.co.uk/search?es_sm=93&biw=1366&bih=643&q=define+unimaginable&sa=X&ei=wgJhU5uHHrPH7AaXrIGoCA&ved=0CDAQ_SowAA); More










antonyms:
believable (https://www.google.co.uk/search?es_sm=93&biw=1366&bih=643&q=define+believable&sa=X&ei=wgJhU5uHHrPH7AaXrIGoCA&ved=0CDkQ_SowAA), credible (https://www.google.co.uk/search?es_sm=93&biw=1366&bih=643&q=define+credible&sa=X&ei=wgJhU5uHHrPH7AaXrIGoCA&ved=0CDoQ_SowAA)






2.
so great or extreme as to be difficult to believe; extraordinary.
"your audacity is unbelievable"

Hibs90
30-04-2014, 02:43 PM
Don't believe a word of the OP tbh. Although what Nando said a few pages back is spot on regardless.

Fergus52
30-04-2014, 02:46 PM
As far as im led to believe there is no wage cap at er and the wage budget is the managers to spend.Mcpake and McGovern are on more than that or they wouldn't be at er.Fenlons budget was cut because we lost £1m in his first season but was the 4th highest in the league so why any team beats us to players over money ive never understood. Maybe his comment of where the money went was alluding to the non footballing side at hibs.

Things are grim if Mcgivern's one of our highest earners.

Collins will probably be on a fair whack too

jacomo
30-04-2014, 04:28 PM
PF can GTF.

This might come as news to you, but he already has... nearly six months ago in fact.

Jdawg
30-04-2014, 04:46 PM
Pity he didn't have a view in terms of setting a team up tactically.

MWHIBBIES
30-04-2014, 04:56 PM
Nothing wrong with what he says, people expected him to build Rome in a day.

Golden Bear
30-04-2014, 05:08 PM
Nothing wrong with what he says, people expected him to build Rome in a day.

Like Aberdeen did this season perhaps?

Beefster
30-04-2014, 05:18 PM
Nothing wrong with what he says, people expected him to build Rome in a day.

By 'a day', do you mean 'two years'?

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 05:26 PM
Nothing wrong with what he says, people expected him to build Rome in a day.

He signed something like 40 players in his time here...

sleeping giant
30-04-2014, 05:34 PM
I'm sure Pat will be pleased that you have posted a private conversation.

basehibby
30-04-2014, 06:06 PM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

:rolleyes: Re the bold bit - Nonsense! - everyone wanted to win these finals and no Hibby was happy to lose them - it's just that some of us are prepared to acknowledge that getting to two finals on the trot and giving the team those one off chances to actually win the SC WAS a success of sorts - particularly with groups of players who were struggling in the league to the point that relegation was a real worry at times.

Your argument holds no water whatsoever - apply it to the league - so every team but the league champion is an abject failure?!? BS!

basehibby
30-04-2014, 06:08 PM
It worries me that any of these wasters is getting 1800 pw! Deary me.

Aye but no but - the point being that if we were prepared to up our maximum wage a bit we might be able to attract some more talented wasters than those we currently employ.

basehibby
30-04-2014, 06:10 PM
:agree: Anyone who thinks getting to two finals were a success, need their heed looked at.

Aye bollox! So Scotland should not bother trying to qualify for WC Finals because we might get beat and therefore be a failure in your eyes :rolleyes:

sleeping giant
30-04-2014, 07:11 PM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!

Complete bollox.

2 cup finals was a great achievement . No we didnt win them but we had a chance. I'd rather be there and have a chance than not be.
Both those cup finals i was dreaming that we could win them. Much rather be there than not.

Struggling to understand your reasoning here to be honest :crazy:


Bob Marleys Dug.....you anaw. WTF ?

Kato
30-04-2014, 07:29 PM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose.

Which people?


Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Well, good for you.

#2 Double Tap
30-04-2014, 07:33 PM
I have mentioned before that one of my mates is friendly with PF. They caught up recently, I asked my mate what he had to say. Some of it I have posted previously, some of it new. This is what PF told him (or for Blackpoolhibs benefit, what my mate said he told him :wink:):

The highest wage we pay any player is £1800 pw. PF can't understand where the money goes, but we have definitely lost out on players as other teams (Aberdeen was specifically mentioned) have offered players more. His opinion was that not only Aberdeen, but Dundee Utd were paying more than us. And despite getting to two consecutive cup finals his budget was cut for the following season.

He did resign, but received a pay off. He felt against Aberdeen that he had lost the dressing room, the players were no longer following his instructions and offered his resignation after that game - Petrie talked him out of it as we were playing Them in the league cup that coming mid-week. He had a good relationship with RP and his opinion was that RP put in a large number of hours on Hibs behalf, taking on more responsbility after Lindsay and Hyland left - if anything he did too much.

A fee of £285,000 had been agreed with Wolves to sign LG. RP was down there hoping to conclude the deal when they sacked their manager, Dean Saunders came in and he blocked the move. We tried again in the summer, Wolves were not prepared to sell him. We ended up paying just over half the £200,000 that's been quoted to sign LG's "replacement", James Collins.

He felt as fans we had unrealistic expectations and that the players struggled to play at ER due to fans getting on their backs. Supposedly this is a not uncommon view and is held by other teams. Stuart McCall has no interest in ever taking the Hibs job because of it.

Overall he loves Hibs, he felt we are a great club and everything should be in place for us to succeed, but something just isn't right - he inferred that this was down to the direction being set by those in charge, they seemed unable to decide if we wanted to be a big club or merely balance the books. In his time at ER (and this was just a statement, not a dig) he met STF only twice.

I have posted what I was told, up to you if you believe it.
hate to agree with blackpool hibs :greengrin
- but that sounds like a summery of hibs.net over the last year :P

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 07:39 PM
Complete bollox.

2 cup finals was a great achievement . No we didnt win them but we had a chance. I'd rather be there and have a chance than not be.
Both those cup finals i was dreaming that we could win them. Much rather be there than not.

Struggling to understand your reasoning here to be honest :crazy:


Bob Marleys Dug.....you anaw. WTF ?

I just don't see getting to 2 cup finals as success other than if you win them, which we didn't. Just my opinion, though.

Kato
30-04-2014, 07:41 PM
I just don't see getting to 2 cup finals as success other than if you win them, which we didn't. Just my opinion, though.

Sleeping Giant didn't say "success", he said "achievement".

Kaiser1962
30-04-2014, 07:42 PM
I just don't see getting to 2 cup finals as success other than if you win them, which we didn't. Just my opinion, though.

I dread to think what your reaction will be if your bairn gets a "B" in their exams.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 07:44 PM
Sleeping Giant didn't say "success", he said "achievement".

Success = Achiement. Sh**e = Jobby.

TheCat sums it up perfectly.

Northernhibee
30-04-2014, 07:49 PM
Aye, but what would you know PF, having been manager and all that.

MWHIBBIES
30-04-2014, 07:49 PM
See that's what's wrong with this club. Some people on here are happy to reach a final win or lose. I'm sorry but a final means nothing at all unless you win it. Maybe that's just me having a winners attitude but if I knew we would be beat in both finals so badly I'd take going out first round.

Pat got us there by having Leigh in the team, he then deployed horrific tactics in both finals. Hearts hammered us down the left and was mostly 2 on 1 yet he never changed it.

I'm delighted he's gone I hope he never come back to ER again. He tried he failed!!!No but if you didn't enjoy the journey to those finals then there is something wrong with you.

Kato
30-04-2014, 07:53 PM
Success = Achiement. Sh**e = Jobby.

Garbage.


TheCat sums it up perfectly.

No he doesn't. He accuses people of being "happy" to get beat, setting himself up as a "winner" as long as he's gifted with psychic knowledge of future results.

On the saturday night after we beat Aberdeen in the semi at Hampden I was with several jambos on a night out. To a man/flump they all wanted to get beat by Celtic the next day as they were scared Hibs might beat them in a final. *****bags if you ask me. My attitude then, and now, is pretty much described by Sleeping Giant's post below - "we had a chance. I'd rather be there and have a chance than not be. Both those cup finals i was dreaming that we could win them. Much rather be there than not". Yup we got beat and the next year as well but that's part of sport, if you can't take being beat you really don't deserve to win either and shouldn't be supporting a football team.


Preferring to get beat earlier just because you can't take it when you lose a final is a losers attitude.

Kaiser1962
30-04-2014, 08:15 PM
Garbage.



No he doesn't. He accuses people of being "happy" to get beat, setting himself up as a "winner" as long as he's gifted with psychic knowledge of future results.

On the saturday night after we beat Aberdeen in the semi at Hampden I was with several jambos on a night out. To a man/flump they all wanted to get beat by Celtic the next day as they were scared Hibs might beat them in a final. *****bags if you ask me. My attitude then, and now, is pretty much described by Sleeping Giant's post below - "we had a chance. I'd rather be there and have a chance than not be. Both those cup finals i was dreaming that we could win them. Much rather be there than not". Yup we got beat and the next year as well but that's part of sport, if you can't take being beat you really don't deserve to win either and shouldn't be supporting a football team.


Preferring to get beat earlier just because you can't take it when you lose a final is a losers attitude.

:agree:

stantonhibby
30-04-2014, 08:16 PM
Success = Achiement. Sh**e = Jobby.

TheCat sums it up perfectly.

You do know that success and achievement have different meanings?

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 08:16 PM
Garbage.



No he doesn't. He accuses people of being "happy" to get beat, setting himself up as a "winner" as long as he's gifted with psychic knowledge of future results.

On the saturday night after we beat Aberdeen in the semi at Hampden I was with several jambos on a night out. To a man/flump they all wanted to get beat by Celtic the next day as they were scared Hibs might beat them in a final. *****bags if you ask me. My attitude then, and now, is pretty much described by Sleeping Giant's post below - "we had a chance. I'd rather be there and have a chance than not be. Both those cup finals i was dreaming that we could win them. Much rather be there than not". Yup we got beat and the next year as well but that's part of sport, if you can't take being beat you really don't deserve to win either and shouldn't be supporting a football team.


Preferring to get beat earlier just because you can't take it when you lose a final is a losers attitude.

We can agree to disagree then. My opinion and your opinion is completely different on this particular subject.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 08:18 PM
You do know that success and achievement have different meanings?

:agree:

Just always wanted to say that because it's from Still Game:greengrin

stantonhibby
30-04-2014, 08:32 PM
:agree:

Just always wanted to say that because it's from Still Game:greengrin

Ok,in that case I'll let you off !!

Kato
30-04-2014, 08:39 PM
We can agree to disagree then. My opinion and your opinion is completely different on this particular subject.

You have an opinion?

Spill then, don't be shy.

sleeping giant
30-04-2014, 08:42 PM
Garbage.



No he doesn't. He accuses people of being "happy" to get beat, setting himself up as a "winner" as long as he's gifted with psychic knowledge of future results.

On the saturday night after we beat Aberdeen in the semi at Hampden I was with several jambos on a night out. To a man/flump they all wanted to get beat by Celtic the next day as they were scared Hibs might beat them in a final. *****bags if you ask me. My attitude then, and now, is pretty much described by Sleeping Giant's post below - "we had a chance. I'd rather be there and have a chance than not be. Both those cup finals i was dreaming that we could win them. Much rather be there than not". Yup we got beat and the next year as well but that's part of sport, if you can't take being beat you really don't deserve to win either and shouldn't be supporting a football team.


Preferring to get beat earlier just because you can't take it when you lose a final is a losers attitude.

Thats a pretty decent post Sir.
Put it better than i could have at this moment:greengrin

Kato
30-04-2014, 08:47 PM
We can agree to disagree then. My opinion and your opinion is completely different on this particular subject.

I don't agree to disagree btw. You and TheCat's "opinion" is nonsense, whereas the stuff I wrote isn't opinion - it's commonly held as a fact in sport.

Kato
30-04-2014, 08:49 PM
Thats a pretty decent post Sir.
Put it better than i could have at this moment:greengrin

What you said about "having the chance" is pretty much what I said to the Jambos that night - that and calling them cowards for wanting to get beat by Celtic.

sleeping giant
30-04-2014, 08:55 PM
What you said about "having the chance" is pretty much what I said to the Jambos that night - that and calling them cowards for wanting to get by Celtic.

The whole build up to those finals. Winnning each match in turn etc.

Nobody is telling me they didn't want that because we got beat in the final. 2 years in a row may i add.

I believed we would have won those matches and it kept me going for the whole season.

Till next time :flag:

stantonhibby
30-04-2014, 08:59 PM
The whole build up to those finals. Winnning each match in turn etc.

Nobody is telling me they didn't want that because we got beat in the final. 2 years in a row may i add.

I believed we would have won those matches and it kept me going for the whole season.

Till next time :flag:

Exactly - the euphoria at the final whistle against Aberdeen & Falkirk and the post match celebrations are probably the best moments following Hibs since the 2007 final.

sleeping giant
30-04-2014, 09:04 PM
Exactly - the euphoria at the final whistle against Aberdeen & Falkirk and the post match celebrations are probably the best moments following Hibs since the 2007 final.

That semi was nearly the best semi i have ever had the good fortune to encounter :greengrin

Best match i can remember :agree:

IberianHibernian
30-04-2014, 09:09 PM
I'm sure Pat will be pleased that you have posted a private conversation.What I thought especially as stuff about " expectations " is immediately put in a context by some which probably has nothing to do with what PF said in a private conversation . And trying to belittle 2 successive SC finals is ridiculous considering all the defeats over the years like losing to Arbroath at ER with Turnbull , at Clydebank with Miller , semi defeats with Mowbray , at Stirling with McLeish , Butcher`s team against Raith etc etc . Don`t see any sign of bitterness in comments in private conversation either . His successor seems to be immune from press criticism which must annoy PF and other previous managers if they`re bothered to look .

Kato
30-04-2014, 09:11 PM
That semi was nearly the best semi i have ever had the good fortune to encounter :greengrin

A legendary Hibs match and the last half-hour inside the ground at the final was a legendary Hibs party.

Phil D. Rolls
30-04-2014, 09:16 PM
What I thought especially as stuff about " expectations " is immediately put in a context by some which probably has nothing to do with what PF said in a private conversation . And trying to belittle 2 successive SC finals is ridiculous considering all the defeats over the years like losing to Arbroath at ER with Turnbull , at Clydebank with Miller , semi defeats with Mowbray , at Stirling with McLeish , Butcher`s team against Raith etc etc . Don`t see any sign of bitterness in comments in private conversation either . His successor seems to be immune from press criticism which must annoy PF and other previous managers if they`re bothered to look .

Worth remembering that Ned lost six goals in two cup finals.

eastterrace
30-04-2014, 09:25 PM
Worth remembering that Ned lost six goals in two cup finals.

when you think about it we have had some doings in cup finals, trudging home from that sh*t hole hampden.

Kato
30-04-2014, 09:26 PM
when you think about it we have had some doings in cup finals, trudging home from that sh*t hole hampden.

Here's a happy chappy.

I only really remember the fights.

Scouse Hibee
30-04-2014, 09:27 PM
Complete bollox.

2 cup finals was a great achievement . No we didnt win them but we had a chance. I'd rather be there and have a chance than not be.
Both those cup finals i was dreaming that we could win them. Much rather be there than not.

Struggling to understand your reasoning here to be honest :crazy:


Bob Marleys Dug.....you anaw. WTF ?


:agree: Unbelievable.

IberianHibernian
30-04-2014, 09:34 PM
Worth remembering that Ned lost six goals in two cup finals.Long time ago but don`t need reminding . Remember being devastated in 1972 but I was young and it was a very good Celtic team which we beat twice at Hampden in same year . Maybe not point your making but think there`s a tendency to categorise all managers as good or bad when it`s not that clear and depends on injuries , assistants , luck especially in cups , pals in press , money available , patience of fans and board , opposition teams , etc etc My first Hibs game was in about 1968 so we`ve probably had about 20 ( ? ) managers since then but only Turnbull and Mowbray ( and maybe McLeish though recognised he was given loads of money ) are recognised by journalists and so after by fans as good managers but the team relegated in 1980 ( built by Turnbull though he`d left by end I think ? ) is still probably the worst team I`ve seen ( minus 3 or 4 great players ) and cup defeats with Mowbray were bad considering team we had then . For us to get to last 2 finals with limited team we had is definitely something PF deserves praise for .

eastterrace
30-04-2014, 09:35 PM
Here's a happy chappy.

I only really remember the fights.

yes there was loads of them, not that i indulge in anyway probably hiding behind guys like you.

Kato
30-04-2014, 09:38 PM
yes there was loads of them, not that i indulge in anyway probably hiding behind guys like you.

Are you good at hiding?

You wouldn't have been hiding behind me, never been in a fight after a final. Seen some though.

Jumping to conclusions a bit there, "eastterrace", steady.

Northernhibee
30-04-2014, 09:39 PM
That goal from Sparky in 2012, that moment when Eoin Doyle scored in 2013, the last twenty minutes vs Celtic, that build up wondering if we were finally going to do it - loved all those moments and I'm grateful for PF and equally gutted for him that he couldn't get over the final hurdle.

PF was and is a good Hibee.

IberianHibernian
30-04-2014, 09:39 PM
when you think about it we have had some doings in cup finals, trudging home from that sh*t hole hampden.Even worse were defeats in lots of semis so 3 SC finlals and 2 LC finals since turn of century isn`t bad - a cup final every 2 or 3 seasons would be okay if we also finished in top 4 of league at least every 3 of every 5 years ( greedy or reasonable ? ) .

IberianHibernian
30-04-2014, 09:46 PM
That goal from Sparky in 2012, that moment when Eoin Doyle scored in 2013, the last twenty minutes vs Celtic, that build up wondering if we were finally going to do it - loved all those moments and I'm grateful for PF and equally gutted for him that he couldn't get over the final hurdle.

PF was and is a good Hibee.Excellent post . We all want to see us win the cup ( though preference would still be league ) soon and if / when we do we`ll all remember good Hibbies who didn`t see it but I`d also really have liked to see PF manage us to a cup win ( maybe he will some day ) .

eastterrace
30-04-2014, 09:53 PM
Are you good at hiding?

You wouldn't have been hiding behind me, never been in a fight after a final. Seen some though.

Jumping to conclusions a bit there, "eastterrace", steady.

sorry matey i should never assume.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 09:56 PM
You have an opinion?

Spill then, don't be shy.

We all do:agree:

BOB MARLEYS DUG
30-04-2014, 09:56 PM
I don't agree to disagree btw. You and TheCat's "opinion" is nonsense, whereas the stuff I wrote isn't opinion - it's commonly held as a fact in sport.

Nae bor:aok:

ehf
30-04-2014, 10:27 PM
Exactly - the euphoria at the final whistle against Aberdeen & Falkirk and the post match celebrations are probably the best moments following Hibs since the 2007 final.

:agree: just pondering which was the best. Probably Aberdeen, as we didn't expect to win. But Falkirk was such a rollercoaster.

As far as the notion that it is better not to get to the final than to be in it but lose it.is concerned...words fail me.

The_Horde
30-04-2014, 10:35 PM
Whether you like it or not, the abuse that we as a support give our own players does absolutely nothing to make them play better, it in fact makes them perform worse. Whether or not you think they "should be able to take it", the fact is that some of them can't, and we are personally contributing to the poor performances of our players. The fact that opposition managers have openly stated that they know how we as a support treat our players and subsequently use that as a tactic against us is all there is to f***ing say.

If you think McGivern or Collins or Nelson or whoever else is pish then how is roaring ridiculous abuse at them going to help make them better? It's not their fault that they are being picked every week, it's not their fault that they are quality of player that we can currently afford. Look higher up and direct your anger towards the people who have brought this calibre of player to Easter Road and ask them why the standard isn't higher. Don't abuse the very people we rely on the most to win matches for us.

The confidence of our players is shot and we are part of the problem. Maybe if we tried helping them, especially at Easter Road, then maybe they wouldn't be so s***-scared to take an extra touch or try a defence-splitting pass now and again. If you can't see how we are directly involved in this then there is f*** all hope for you.

If you abuse our players, you are helping the opposition. This is a fact, cited by Terry Butcher himself and other managers.

Absolutely nandish.

What's worse though are people who could attend the games but just don't..

joebakerforever
01-05-2014, 12:28 AM
Whether you like it or not, the abuse that we as a support give our own players does absolutely nothing to make them play better, it in fact makes them perform worse. Whether or not you think they "should be able to take it", the fact is that some of them can't, and we are personally contributing to the poor performances of our players. The fact that opposition managers have openly stated that they know how we as a support treat our players and subsequently use that as a tactic against us is all there is to f***ing say.

If you think McGivern or Collins or Nelson or whoever else is pish then how is roaring ridiculous abuse at them going to help make them better? It's not their fault that they are being picked every week, it's not their fault that they are quality of player that we can currently afford. Look higher up and direct your anger towards the people who have brought this calibre of player to Easter Road and ask them why the standard isn't higher. Don't abuse the very people we rely on the most to win matches for us.

The confidence of our players is shot and we are part of the problem. Maybe if we tried helping them, especially at Easter Road, then maybe they wouldn't be so s***-scared to take an extra touch or try a defence-splitting pass now and again. If you can't see how we are directly involved in this then there is f*** all hope for you.

If you abuse our players, you are helping the opposition. This is a fact, cited by Terry Butcher himself and other managers.

:agree:

Over the last 45 years, I have attended many senior league matches in Scotland, England, Wales, and Europe, where I have sat or stood amongst the home support.

The results have been a mixture of wins, losses, and draws, with some of the home team performances being as crap as Hibs recent displays.

From my experiences, the level of abuse towards their own players has never been of the intensity that is currently the norm at Easter Road.

Does barracking by the fans of their own players affect their performances ? - well judging by recent results at Easter Road, it does not appear to have a positive effect :dunno:

GreenLake
01-05-2014, 04:25 AM
PF in frame as Lennons assistant manager

Fingers crossed! :greengrin

BOB MARLEYS DUG
01-05-2014, 05:38 AM
:agree:

Over the last 45 years, I have attended many senior league matches in Scotland, England, Wales, and Europe, where I have sat or stood amongst the home support.

The results have been a mixture of wins, losses, and draws, with some of the home team performances being as crap as Hibs recent displays.

From my experiences, the level of abuse towards their own players has never been of the intensity that is currently the norm at Easter Road.

Does barracking by the fans of their own players affect their performances ? - well judging by recent results at Easter Road, it does not appear to have a positive effect :dunno:

Well said:top marks

The abuse hurlers should take note. It doesn't make us play any better, so instead of shouting abuse, get behind the team or don't say anything at all!!!

GGTTH

Kaiser1962
01-05-2014, 06:59 AM
Worth remembering that Ned lost six goals in two cup finals.


when you think about it we have had some doings in cup finals, trudging home from that sh*t hole hampden.

We also lost 6 to Celtic in 1969 under Bob Shankly.


Here's a happy chappy.

I only really remember the fights.

From what I recall some of those didn't go to well for us either. :greengrin

Ronniekirk
01-05-2014, 07:35 AM
Well said:top marks

The abuse hurlers should take note. It doesn't make us play any better, so instead of shouting abuse, get behind the team or don't say anything at all!!!

GGTTH

Think it would be good to put that to the test and see if crowd get right behind team for full game can it make a difference .
Before Half Time against hearts I was getting a drink at Catering hatch and this guy dragging his young child behind him was cursing and swearing about Hibs and how poor we were ,he kicked open the doors to get out ,damaging the bar on the door in the process .The child looked Terrified and he was completely oblivious to that . So some memory that wee laddie will have of last Derby . It's Ridiculous Behaviour need less to say the Stewards didn't approach him they just left him to storm off .
Contrast that to the picture Suzy put up of the young people from the Multi Cultural Family Centre outside the Hibs shop after the game and they all looked like they had a great time .

cabbageandribs1875
01-05-2014, 07:57 AM
Complete bollox.

2 cup finals was a great achievement . No we didnt win them but we had a chance. I'd rather be there and have a chance than not be.
Both those cup finals i was dreaming that we could win them. Much rather be there than not.

Struggling to understand your reasoning here to be honest :crazy:


Bob Marleys Dug.....you anaw. WTF ?



bizarre indeed, it's all about the participation :agree: we were there

Paisley Hibby
01-05-2014, 08:12 AM
:agree:

Over the last 45 years, I have attended many senior league matches in Scotland, England, Wales, and Europe, where I have sat or stood amongst the home support.

The results have been a mixture of wins, losses, and draws, with some of the home team performances being as crap as Hibs recent displays.

From my experiences, the level of abuse towards their own players has never been of the intensity that is currently the norm at Easter Road.

Does barracking by the fans of their own players affect their performances ? - well judging by recent results at Easter Road, it does not appear to have a positive effect :dunno:

Well said :agree:

JeMeSouviens
01-05-2014, 08:33 AM
I think the 2 cup runs are vastly different.

2012 we almost got there by accident, friendly draws all the way apart from maybe Aberdeen but they were pretty rank on the day. The disaster in the final, the bent ref and the gloating yams are all pretty sair to bear as well.

2013 was a really solid effort, pyschologically standing up to the still-financially-doped Yams, beating the improved-a-bit Dons and Killie away was probably as good as we were all season. The fightback against Falkirk was memorable but we were outclassed in the final and the only player who might've given us an earthly was clearly hobbled. Overall I'd say this was probably the best Scottish cup run of my lifetime though, so thanks to PF for that.

Captain Trips
01-05-2014, 08:41 AM
I question everything that was "allegedly" said by PF in the whole piece. Some parts make no sense per wage then trying to buy folk who surely would have been on more. I do not expect any manager or player to say anything other than they are affected by folk shouting as why would they want shouted at.


Players get shouted at by all clubs it isnt even a factor for me as to the mire we are in and it deflects from more pressing footballing matters as the reason.

Captain Trips
01-05-2014, 08:45 AM
Think it would be good to put that to the test and see if crowd get right behind team for full game can it make a difference .
Before Half Time against hearts I was getting a drink at Catering hatch and this guy dragging his young child behind him was cursing and swearing about Hibs and how poor we were ,he kicked open the doors to get out ,damaging the bar on the door in the process .The child looked Terrified and he was completely oblivious to that . So some memory that wee laddie will have of last Derby . It's Ridiculous Behaviour need less to say the Stewards didn't approach him they just left him to storm off .
Contrast that to the picture Suzy put up of the young people from the Multi Cultural Family Centre outside the Hibs shop after the game and they all looked like they had a great time .

The fans have been behind team and we have lost won and drawn with some exceptional support, they have also been a bit more subdued and we have also won lost and drawn. Like it or not there are 1000s of people all different with different tolerences exact same as at Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc etc. Sorry but myth we are worse than anyone else it is a leveller.

We are poor as we have a poor standard of player in the main bad tactics added to that with lack of ambition going forward on park those far far outway anything shouted by some folk at a game. That is why he finished 11th then 7th because he wasn't a very good manager.

Nando™
01-05-2014, 08:50 AM
I question everything that was "allegedly" said by PF in the whole piece. Some parts make no sense per wage then trying to buy folk who surely would have been on more. I do not expect any manager or player to say anything other than they are affected by folk shouting as why would they want shouted at.


Players get shouted at by all clubs it isnt even a factor for me as to the mire we are in and it deflects from more pressing footballing matters as the reason.

But how many other clubs' players get abused to the point where the opposition apply specific tactics to exploit it and gain the upper hand?

Our better away record of recent times is not a coincidence.

Saorsa
01-05-2014, 09:09 AM
But how many other clubs' players get abused to the point where the opposition apply specific tactics to exploit it and gain the upper hand?

Our better away record of recent times is not a coincidence.Nah, that just comes across as another excuse tae me, in a long line of excuses from him and others. I dinnae go tae many away games these days but the last few I've been at had decent noisy away supports and what happened on the park was nae better than it was at ER. Our last two wins have been at ER. We've played 18 games since the turn of the year and the only two wins have been at ER.

Nando™
01-05-2014, 09:21 AM
Nah, that just comes across as another excuse tae me, in a long line of excuses from him and others. I dinnae go tae many away games these days but the last few I've been at had decent noisy away supports and what happened on the park was nae better than it was at ER. Our last two wins have been at ER. We've played 18 games since the turn of the year and the only two wins have been at ER.

Over the last few years I've seen some of our players come out of their shells a bit more away from home. Their overall footballing skill would normally dictate whether or not they ultimately played well, but for the most part they have seemed much more composed when not at Easter Road.

I think our task is incredibly simple to be honest, support the players and if they're not good enough then don't hold them accountable. The higher-ups are the ones that brought them here.

Captain Trips
01-05-2014, 10:02 AM
But how many other clubs' players get abused to the point where the opposition apply specific tactics to exploit it and gain the upper hand?

Our better away record of recent times is not a coincidence.

Based on what? and how do you know we have never done that? Maybe our better away record is based on those home fans being as bad as us?

Yes it is a coincidence we are that bad that our wins come here or there and it happens to be away on the odd occasion more.

Last term Won 13 in SPL 7 of which were home it is swings and roundabouts and I find it laughable that the support could even be considered at all in this. Those players get great support yes it can turn by why does it turn? It turns because we start to play rubbish pure and simple and that is same world over.

11th and 7th under PF down solely to his signings and his style of play.

Captain Trips
01-05-2014, 10:12 AM
Over the last few years I've seen some of our players come out of their shells a bit more away from home. Their overall footballing skill would normally dictate whether or not they ultimately played well, but for the most part they have seemed much more composed when not at Easter Road.

I think our task is incredibly simple to be honest, support the players and if they're not good enough then don't hold them accountable. The higher-ups are the ones that brought them here.

Its an excuse and a not very good one if you want to buy into fine I am not and will never wear this unless the whole stadium started on a player game after game.

Arch Stanton
01-05-2014, 10:13 AM
Admitting that he lost the dressing room doesn't sound to me that he is denying any responsibility.

And yes, the fans also have a resposibility to actually support the team and he is perfectly right in raising that because it is a continuing problem.

But negative fans never accept responsibility - witness many posts on this thread - very depressing.

Kato
01-05-2014, 10:17 AM
Admitting that he lost the dressing room doesn't sound to me that he is denying any responsibility.

And yes, the fans also have a resposibility to actually support the team and he is perfectly right in raising that because it is a continuing problem.

But negative fans never accept responsibility - witness many posts on this thread - very depressing.

A supporter has two jobs, one compulsory the other optional, 1 Support the team, 2 Try and rattle the opposition, if that's your bag.

If you are rattling our players you are doing the oppositions fans' job for them.

silverhibee
01-05-2014, 10:24 AM
:agree: Unbelievable.


Jeff.

silverhibee
01-05-2014, 10:30 AM
That goal from Sparky in 2012, that moment when Eoin Doyle scored in 2013, the last twenty minutes vs Celtic, that build up wondering if we were finally going to do it - loved all those moments and I'm grateful for PF and equally gutted for him that he couldn't get over the final hurdle.

PF was and is a good Hibee.


Stop it eh :faf:


He is a ST holder at darkheid.

silverhibee
01-05-2014, 10:35 AM
But how many other clubs' players get abused to the point where the opposition apply specific tactics to exploit it and gain the upper hand?

Our better away record of recent times is not a coincidence.


I need proof of that before i believe that stat.

matty_f
01-05-2014, 10:36 AM
A supporter has two jobs, one compulsory the other optional, 1 Support the team, 2 Try and rattle the opposition, if that's your bag.

If you are rattling our players you are doing the oppositions fans' job for them.
Couldn't agree more.