PF's views on Hibs

[Saorsa]

Over the last few years I've seen some of our players come out of their shells a bit more away from home. Their overall footballing skill would normally dictate whether or not they ultimately played well, but for the most part they have seemed much more composed when not at Easter Road.

I think our task is incredibly simple to be honest, support the players and if they're not good enough then don't hold them accountable. The higher-ups are the ones that brought them here.I dinnae disagree with that mate, I just dinnae think we're any worse than any other supporters, particularly if they'd been subjected tae 7 seasons of continuous dross. Even during that period we've seen sect 43 formed tae try and improve the atmosphere and support the team which it did but it made little difference tae what was on the park. For me it's just another excuse from poor managers who have failed tae get the best out of any particular group of players, even ones that they have signed.

Lets look at what's happening now, I dinnae believe this current group of players are as bad as our form of the last 15 games would suggest they are, the 1st few games when Butcher came in were much better, since then something has happened (other than the constant chopping and changing of the team), what it is I dinnae ken but it's nothing the fans have done.

[Captain Trips]

I need proof of that before i believe that stat.


Indeed

It wasnt the case last season even when our "orrible" home fans let rip. We will never stop it happening thats the way it is some folk will shout and in turn when we are away the home fans of that club who shout will do so its a leveller it is irrelevant and it is thanks to PF and his players we finished 11th then 7th.

[ScottB]

I don't think we have unrealistic expectations of the club over the long term.

Whether you'd class the abuse that reigns down from some quarters the second a player mistimes a pass or misses a shot as 'unrealistic expectations' is possibly open to debate. But whatever that is, we've got caught in a vicious cycle. Others rightly point out we've suffered through dross for years, yet most of these guys are fairly new, will the same happen in the summer? A bunch of new players arrive and if we go a goal down in the first match there'll be a bunch of fans jumping on their backs immediately because of how bad we've been before they even got to the club?

I personally don't throw abuse at our own players, I might boo a bad result, I might moan at a terrible moment, but some folk take it too far and we've seen it before, players performing far better away from ER, be it at other clubs or in the Scotland set up etc. confidence is important and I can't imagine playing at ER gives our squad any.

[Captain Trips]

I dinnae disagree with that mate, I just dinnae think we're any worse than any other supporters, particularly if they'd been subjected tae 7 seasons of continuous dross. Even during that period we've seen sect 43 formed tae try and improve the atmosphere and support the team which it did but it made little difference tae what was on the park. For me it's just another excuse from poor managers who have failed tae get the best out of any particular group of players, even ones that they have signed.

100%

I have stood proud at the cheer coming out onto park only to be given dross, yes a section of support then turned but up until then it was and is 100% players/managers fault.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

Admitting that he lost the dressing room doesn't sound to me that he is denying any responsibility.

And yes, the fans also have a resposibility to actually support the team and he is perfectly right in raising that because it is a continuing problem.

But negative fans never accept responsibility - witness many posts on this thread - very depressing.

Well said.

[Beefster]

But how many other clubs' players get abused to the point where the opposition apply specific tactics to exploit it and gain the upper hand?

Our better away record of recent times is not a coincidence.

It might not be a coincidence. It is a myth though.

[Saorsa]

But negative fans never accept responsibility - witness many posts on this thread - very depressing.What has what's posted on here got tae dae with what happens at the games or how posters on here behave? The vast majority of supporters aren't even on here. I post my opinions as I see it, that disnae make me a negative fan at games. I dinnae hurl abuse at players, I go along tae support the team. If that isnae why I went I wouldnae bother and wouldnae pay 400 quid for the privilege of doin' so.

yes there are idiots in the crowd, there are in every crowd but ours is nae worse than any other.

[Nando™]

In terms of the away record I was spouting. I was homing in mainly on the 11/12 season where we picked up more wins, more points and scored more goals away from home. Generally otherwise we've been just as pish.


Based on what? and how do you know we have never done that? Maybe our better away record is based on those home fans being as bad as us?

Yes it is a coincidence we are that bad that our wins come here or there and it happens to be away on the odd occasion more.

Last term Won 13 in SPL 7 of which were home it is swings and roundabouts and I find it laughable that the support could even be considered at all in this. Those players get great support yes it can turn by why does it turn? It turns because we start to play rubbish pure and simple and that is same world over.

11th and 7th under PF down solely to his signings and his style of play.
Testimony from managers and players is enough evidence to prove that we have an effect on the players. This isn't even debatable, if we encourage them then they'll play better, if we abuse them they'll play worse. See below for a glaring example of how much we can affect them.


Its an excuse and a not very good one if you want to buy into fine I am not and will never wear this unless the whole stadium started on a player game after game.
Colin Nish and John Rankin to name but two.

People were coming on this board weekly telling us that the abuse Nish in particular was receiving home and away was abhorrent. The guy was brutally demoralised by US and nobody else. And now what do we see? Teams keeping it tight until we start getting on the whole team's back for passing sideways and hoofing it, which subsequently results in us calling our own players every name under the sun. And then the other team opens up and it gets worse.

You can see it coming a mile away and it's obvious what the other teams are doing, they know what we're like and are mugging us off.


I dinnae disagree with that mate, I just dinnae think we're any worse than any other supporters, particularly if they'd been subjected tae 7 seasons of continuous dross. Even during that period we've seen sect 43 formed tae try and improve the atmosphere and support the team which it did but it made little difference tae what was on the park. For me it's just another excuse from poor managers who have failed tae get the best out of any particular group of players, even ones that they have signed.

Lets look at what's happening now, I dinnae believe this current group of players are as bad as our form of the last 15 games would suggest they are, the 1st few games when Butcher came in were much better, since then something has happened (other than the constant chopping and changing of the team), what it is I dinnae ken but it's nothing the fans have done.

I've never heard of any club in the world that has used it's opposition fans to their advantage mate, that's been happening to us for years now.

I'm not sitting here saying we're a huge problem. What we are is a small problem that could have a hugely positive impact if we direct our anger to the appropriate channels and not to the players. It couldn't be any easier.

Our support is a massive Jekyll and Hyde scenario, we give amazing support at times but we can be worse than terrible as well.

"You're *****, Collins"
"F*** off Nish, you're pish"
"F*** off Ivan ya wee Irish pr***"

How are players going to play better when this kind of brainless waffle is being flung their way? Truly baffling behaviour.

[Captain Trips]

In terms of the away record I was spouting. I was homing in mainly on the 11/12 season where we picked up more wins, more points and scored more goals away from home. Generally otherwise we've been just as pish.


Testimony from managers and players is enough evidence to prove that we have an effect on the players. This isn't even debatable, if we encourage them then they'll play better, if we abuse them they'll play worse. See below for a glaring example of how much we can affect them.


Colin Nish and John Rankin to name but two.

People were coming on this board weekly telling us that the abuse Nish in particular was receiving home and away was abhorrent. The guy was brutally demoralised by US and nobody else. And now what do we see? Teams keeping it tight until we start getting on the whole team's back for passing sideways and hoofing it, which subsequently results in us calling our own players every name under the sun. And then the other team opens up and it gets worse.

You can see it coming a mile away and it's obvious what the other teams are doing, they know what we're like and are mugging us off.



I've never heard of any club in the world that has used it's opposition fans to their advantage mate, that's been happening to us for years now.

I'm not sitting here saying we're a huge problem. What we are is a small problem that could have a hugely positive impact if we direct our anger to the appropriate channels and not to the players. It couldn't be any easier.

Our support is a massive Jekyll and Hyde scenario, we give amazing support at times but we can be worse than terrible as well.

"You're *****, Collins"
"F*** off Nish, you're pish"
"F*** off Ivan ya wee Irish pr***"

How are players going to play better when this kind of brainless waffle is being flung their way? Truly baffling behaviour.

I stated already I fully expect players to mention getting stick in order not to get any regardless if it bothers them. I have heard some people shout the things quoted so what? 7000+ folk there and some shouting that if they even hear it big deal. To me it isn't a problem but it will never cease how do we know ex players at other clubs have not said stuff about there times at say Dundee, Aberdeen? I assume we do not keep as close interest on other clubs players comments.

So in 11/12 our fans were worse at home? sorry but I find this all totally ridiculous.If it is not dodgy stuff at training, Petrie interfering, still a knock on from the players meeting Petrie to the fans. It is the players and mangers fault we were pish in 11/12 12/13 and up until now.
We are crap down to players and managers, getting stick from a few folk in stand is a joke of an excuse.

[silverhibee]

I dinnae disagree with that mate, I just dinnae think we're any worse than any other supporters, particularly if they'd been subjected tae 7 seasons of continuous dross. Even during that period we've seen sect 43 formed tae try and improve the atmosphere and support the team which it did but it made little difference tae what was on the park. For me it's just another excuse from poor managers who have failed tae get the best out of any particular group of players, even ones that they have signed.

Lets look at what's happening now, I dinnae believe this current group of players are as bad as our form of the last 15 games would suggest they are, the 1st few games when Butcher came in were much better, since then something has happened (other than the constant chopping and changing of the team), what it is I dinnae ken but it's nothing the fans have done.

Agree, this notion that it is only us nasty Hibs fans that boo and have a go at the team is laughable, St Mirren fans have boo'd there team most of the season and demanded the manager be sacked, FFS even Motherwell fans have been booing there team of the park this season and asking for McCalls head earlier in the season, even the tramps were getting stuck in to the yam yoof playing in the first team and giving them it tight and wanted golden shower out the door, if your team are playing tom kite the fans whoever they support will give the players a bit of a hard time, it happens all over the world, not just at ER.

The team get our support the minute they walk out the tunnel for the start of the game, "Hibees Hibees Hibees Hibees" and as you know where we sit that the team get plenty of support from the start, i don't hear any booing or abuse being handed out at that point only plenty of encouragement from the fans in the ground for the players on the pitch, as soon as the referee blows the whistle for kick off it is then down to the players to do there bit, sadly for to long , they haven't, nothing to do with the fans who have backed them and in return been kicked in the baws to many times by them when we turn out in numbers home and away.

Not the fans fault for the position the team find them self's in at this time.

[Nando™]

I stated already I fully expect players to mention getting stick in order not to get any regardless if it bothers them. I have heard some people shout the things quoted so what? 7000+ folk there and some shouting that if they even hear it big deal. To me it isn't a problem but it will never cease how do we know ex players at other clubs have not said stuff about there times at say Dundee, Aberdeen? I assume we do not keep as close interest on other clubs players comments.

We are crap down to players and managers, getting stick from a few folk in stand is a joke of an excuse.

It blatantly is a problem, because if it wasn't then players wouldn't be talking about it and managers wouldn't be exploiting it.

It's obvious mate, it couldn't be anymore apparent to me if it tried.

[Nando™]

Agree, this notion that it is only us nasty Hibs fans that boo and have a go at the team is laughable, St Mirren fans have boo'd there team most of the season and demanded the manager be sacked, FFS even Motherwell fans have been booing there team of the park this season and asking for McCalls head earlier in the season, even the tramps were getting stuck in to the yam yoof playing in the first team and giving them it tight and wanted golden shower out the door, if your team are playing tom kite the fans whoever they support will give the players a bit of a hard time, it happens all over the world, not just at ER.

The team get our support the minute they walk out the tunnel for the start of the game, "Hibees Hibees Hibees Hibees" and as you know where we sit that the team get plenty of support from the start, i don't hear any booing or abuse being handed out at that point only plenty of encouragement from the fans in the ground for the players on the pitch, as soon as the referee blows the whistle for kick off it is then down to the players to do there bit, sadly for to long , they haven't, nothing to do with the fans who have backed them and in return been kicked in the baws to many times by them when we turn out in numbers home and away.

Not the fans fault for the position the team find them self's in at this time.

I haven't said it's the fans' fault, I am merely saying we have a clear and obvious effect.

"it happens all over the world". So? What's that got to do with Hibs and our part? Why don't we just eliminate the negative effect we bring?

It's easy. Very, very easy.

[Captain Trips]

It blatantly is a problem, because if it wasn't then players wouldn't be talking about it and managers wouldn't be exploiting it.

It's obvious mate, it couldn't be anymore apparent to me if it tried.

I have told you why its mentioned as an excuse so yes I do not believe the players or managers saying it, it is to deflect from there own shortcomings.

[Saorsa]

Testimony from managers and players is enough evidence

How are players going to play better when this kind of brainless waffle is being flung their way? Truly baffling behaviour.Point two first. Again I agree with you, I've never said or thought it helps, I just dinnae agree with the extent of it.

Point one, again it depends on what you believe, is it as bad as all that (for some maybe it is), or is it just a convenient get out for failure and poor performance from others? Matter of opinion I guess. I would say the answer lies somewhere in the middle. I'm no saying it disnae happen but I dinnae believe it tae be a problem tae the extent that some are making it out tae be that makes us so much worse than other supporters, and that it is IMO being used as an excuse by some for their ain failure.

[Captain Trips]

I haven't said it's the fans' fault, I am merely saying we have a clear and obvious effect.

"it happens all over the world". So? What's that got to do with Hibs and our part? Why don't we just eliminate the negative effect we bring?

It's easy. Very, very easy.

Maybe in some fantasy world perhaps but not with 7000+ individuals and with the home team we play when we are away likely doing the same it is irrelevant.

[My_Wife_Camille]

At the end of the day, it's not simply 'the fans fault' the same as it's not simply 'the players fault'.

The fans are exactly the same as the players, they're not all good and they're not all bad. There are some that help the team and are a positive influence and there are some who do no good at all and are nothing but a crusty **** smear on the pants of our club.

For example:

Some of our supporters are like Lewis Stevenson, they refuse to accept we're beaten and give everything they have til the final whistle. A credit to the club

Some are like Sam Stanton. Top class and Hibs daft.

Some are like Paul Hanlon. There every week win, lose or draw.

Some are like Paul Cairney. Not bad but only show up now and again.

Some are like Liam Craig. *****bags

Some are like Owain Tudur Jones. Nowhere to be seen

Some are like Ryan McGivern. Not good enough

Some are like Danny Haynes. Absolutely awful and the further away from Easter Road the better.

Give me a Lewis Stevenson over a Danny Haynes any day!

[Fergus52]

I dinnae disagree with that mate, I just dinnae think we're any worse than any other supporters, particularly if they'd been subjected tae 7 seasons of continuous dross. Even during that period we've seen sect 43 formed tae try and improve the atmosphere and support the team which it did but it made little difference tae what was on the park. For me it's just another excuse from poor managers who have failed tae get the best out of any particular group of players, even ones that they have signed.

Lets look at what's happening now, I dinnae believe this current group of players are as bad as our form of the last 15 games would suggest they are, the 1st few games when Butcher came in were much better, since then something has happened (other than the constant chopping and changing of the team), what it is I dinnae ken but it's nothing the fans have done.

I don't think anyone is trying so blame the fans.

I just don't think we help much when the chips are down. Other fans may be as negative as us, but from the (albeit limited) experience I've had watching other teams, they've not seemed as bad for consistently shouting abuse and booing whenever something goes wrong. Two managers have mentioned it about hibs, but I've not seen any manager speak about it at another scottish club.

[Fergus52]

At the end of the day, it's not simply 'the fans fault' the same as it's not simply 'the players fault'.

The fans are exactly the same as the players, they're not all good and they're not all bad. There are some that help the team and are a positive influence and there are some who do no good at all and are nothing but a crusty **** smear on the pants of our club.

For example:

Some of our supporters are like Lewis Stevenson, they refuse to accept we're beaten and give everything they have til the final whistle. A credit to the club

Some are like Sam Stanton. Top class and Hibs daft.

Some are like Paul Hanlon. There every week win, lose or draw.

Some are like Paul Cairney. Not bad but only show up now and again.

Some are like Liam Craig. *****bags

Some are like Owain Tudur Jones. Nowhere to be seen

Some are like Ryan McGivern. Not good enough

Some are like Danny Haynes. Absolutely awful and the further away from Easter Road the better.

Give me a Lewis Stevenson over a Danny Haynes any day!

I enjoyed this analogy :thumbsup:

[Nando™]

I have told you why its mentioned as an excuse so yes I do not believe the players or managers saying it, it is to deflect from there own shortcomings.

Fair enough, agree to disagree etc.

I'd like to hear more about what someone said the other day on here about Stuart McCall saying he'd never manage Hibs because of our behaviour towards the team.


Point two first. Again I agree with you, I've never said or thought it helps, I just dinnae agree with the extent of it.

Point one, again it depends on what you believe, is it as bad as all that (for some maybe it is), or is it just a convenient get out for failure and poor performance from others? Matter of opinion I guess. I would say the answer lies somewhere in the middle, I'm no saying it disnae happen but I dinnae believe it tae be a problem tae the extent that some are making it out tae be.

It probably does lie somewhere in the middle, however I've seen with my own eyes how much more relaxed our team is when it has the crowd behind them. You can even apply it to yourself - if and when you receive encouragement in work or general life, does it give you a boost? It certainly has done for me in the past.

Even when playing amateur football in front of 20 people, the shouts from the sidelines has helped me work harder or run a yard quicker.


Maybe in some fantasy world perhaps but not with 7000+ individuals and with the home team we play likely doing the same it is irrelevant.

It wouldn't be a fantasy if we spread the right vibes in amongst ourselves. It's not impossible to convince thousands of people to support rather than vent their frustration.

[Captain Trips]

Fair enough, agree to disagree etc.

I'd like to hear more about what someone said the other day on here about Stuart McCall saying he'd never manage Hibs because of our behaviour towards the team.



It probably does lie somewhere in the middle, however I've seen with my own eyes how much more relaxed our team is when it has the crowd behind them. You can even apply it to yourself - if and when you receive encouragement in work or general life, does it give you a boost? It certainly has done for me in the past.

Even when playing amateur football in front of 20 people, the shouts from the sidelines has helped me work harder or run a yard quicker.



It wouldn't be a fantasy if we spread the right vibes in amongst ourselves. It's not impossible to convince thousands of people to support rather than vent their frustration.


1000s don't a few shout abuse a lot boo at HT or/and FT. 1000s do support the problems on Saturdays are not in the stands.

[Nando™]

1000s don't a few shout abuse a lot boo at HT or/and FT. 1000s do support the problems on Saturdays are not in the stands.

A lot have booed throughout games too.

We are not as big a problem as the ones that have resulted in us having an unacceptable competitive performance for nearly a decade, but we are a visible problem that we could eliminate.

[stantonhibby]

At the end of the day, it's not simply 'the fans fault' the same as it's not simply 'the players fault'.

The fans are exactly the same as the players, they're not all good and they're not all bad. There are some that help the team and are a positive influence and there are some who do no good at all and are nothing but a crusty **** smear on the pants of our club.

For example:

Some of our supporters are like Lewis Stevenson, they refuse to accept we're beaten and give everything they have til the final whistle. A credit to the club

Some are like Sam Stanton. Top class and Hibs daft.

Some are like Paul Hanlon. There every week win, lose or draw.

Some are like Paul Cairney. Not bad but only show up now and again.

Some are like Liam Craig. *****bags

Some are like Owain Tudur Jones. Nowhere to be seen

Some are like Ryan McGivern. Not good enough

Some are like Danny Haynes. Absolutely awful and the further away from Easter Road the better.

Give me a Lewis Stevenson over a Danny Haynes any day!



Ironic that on a thread re supportive or abusive fans you would come away with that sort of description about our current captain.

[Captain Trips]

A lot have booed throughout games too.

We are not as big a problem as the ones that have resulted in us having an unacceptable competitive performance for nearly a decade, but we are a visible problem that we could eliminate.

Not by 1000s of people though, again there is no problem so we must agree to disagree on this front.

[Arch Stanton]

I have told you why its mentioned as an excuse so yes I do not believe the players or managers saying it, it is to deflect from there own shortcomings.

So Wotherspoon's tentative displays with Hibs were his fault? Pat Fenlon's fault? Not the fault of the fans who yell abuse within earshot of the touchline?

I just don't believe that but I do agree with you that such fans will never change and that progress will only ever be made despite their best (worst?) efforts.

[My_Wife_Camille]

Ironic that on a thread re supportive or abusive fans you would come away with that sort of description about our current captain.
:na na: Just a bit of fun ya radge.

Captain or not, Liam hasn't been good enough for a long time now, just like a lot of our supporters.

[number 27]

1000s don't a few shout abuse a lot boo at HT or/and FT. 1000s do support the problems on Saturdays are not in the stands.


This is absolutely true. Some people are so desperate to blame the fans they will pick up on any signs of negativity and claim it as an excuse for years of dismal failure.

I thought that under the circumstances the support was ok on sunday but we still lost.

As for this idea that managers are uniquely trying to use the home crowd at ER, what a lot of nonsense, this is something managers have been saying since the beginning of time about all sorts of teams "keep it tight for 20 mins and the crowd get restless". I have heard Hibs managers say that about games in Glasgow for instance.

[Captain Trips]

So Wotherspoon's tentative displays with Hibs were his fault? Pat Fenlon's fault? Not the fault of the fans who yell abuse within earshot of the touchline?

I just don't believe that but I do agree with you that such fans will never change and that progress will only ever be made despite their best (worst?) efforts.

If they were tentative displays it is his fault the managers fault but not the fans fault. that is exactly the case for me. Progress will be made at the same rate as it would at any club who hire bad managers or who sign poor players.

[stantonhibby]

:na na: Just a bit of fun ya radge.

Captain or not, Liam hasn't been good enough for a long time now, just like a lot of our supporters.


Agreed

[blackpoolhibs]

Our support at last years cup final was absolutely superb, the players were their usual limp wristed 2nd to every ball half hearted crap. We also played a centre forward who was 50% fit, was that the fans fault? When Maybury sclafed the ball out towards the line only for Stokes to cross the ball in without being put under any type of pressure, was that the fans fault too?

When the cross came in and Williams was rooted to his line, was that the fans fault, and when Hanlon left Hooper to score while marking him from 5 yards, was that the fans fault too?

I agree that some of the abuse is way over the top, i actually witnessed it myself when Colin Nish was terribly abused one game a few seasons ago.

I have also witnessed it at Arsenal, Tottenham, Blackpool and countless Scottish games. We are not alone in this, it happens all over the country.

[Arch Stanton]

If they were tentative displays it is his fault the managers fault but not the fans fault. that is exactly the case for me. Progress will be made at the same rate as it would at any club who hire bad managers or who sign poor players.

Wow!

And PF gets stick for evading responsibility?

[Kato]

Our support at last years cup final was absolutely superb, the players were their usual limp wristed 2nd to every ball half hearted crap. We also played a centre forward who was 50% fit, was that the fans fault? When Maybury sclafed the ball out towards the line only for Stokes to cross the ball in without being put under any type of pressure, was that the fans fault too?

When the cross came in and Williams was rooted to his line, was that the fans fault, and when Hanlon left Hooper to score while marking him from 5 yards, was that the fans fault too?

I agree that some of the abuse is way over the top, i actually witnessed it myself when Colin Nish was terribly abused one game a few seasons ago.

I have also witnessed it at Arsenal, Tottenham, Blackpool and countless Scottish games. We are not alone in this, it happens all over the country.

Is there any point to this post?


None of the above changes the fact that some Hibs fans do the oppositions fans job for them.

[Captain Trips]

Wow!

And PF gets stick for evading responsibility?

The fans have had no responsability whatsoever so nothing being evaded IMO. Any fan responsabilty then can be at the numbers not attending so ironically ones not even in stadium.

Hibs had 3 bad SPL campaigns in a row heading for 4 due to Calderwood, Fenlon and Rod for making the decision of hiring (yes I think he hired Fenlon). That is it in nutshell.

[Captain Trips]

Is there any point to this post?


None of the above changes the fact that some Hibs fans do the oppositions fans job for them.

And the opposition fans do the job for us as well so all things equal, so then it comes down to ability/tactics which have both been lacking.

[Arch Stanton]

Our support at last years cup final was absolutely superb, the players were their usual limp wristed 2nd to every ball half hearted crap. We also played a centre forward who was 50% fit, was that the fans fault? When Maybury sclafed the ball out towards the line only for Stokes to cross the ball in without being put under any type of pressure, was that the fans fault too?

When the cross came in and Williams was rooted to his line, was that the fans fault, and when Hanlon left Hooper to score while marking him from 5 yards, was that the fans fault too?

I agree that some of the abuse is way over the top, i actually witnessed it myself when Colin Nish was terribly abused one game a few seasons ago.

I have also witnessed it at Arsenal, Tottenham, Blackpool and countless Scottish games. We are not alone in this, it happens all over the country.

I don't actually follow. When good players make blunders they are actually bad players - is that how it goes?

Fans are relevant to the outcome I don't care what anyone says. Big atmospheres make for great matches after all.

[Kato]

And the opposition fans do the job for us as well so all things equal,


That's if the opposition fans are in the rut some of our fans are, which ain't always the case.

[Captain Trips]

I don't actually follow. When good players make blunders they are actually bad players - is that how it goes?

Fans are relevant to the outcome I don't care what anyone says. Big atmospheres make for great matches after all.

So why when 30,000 cheered us out vs Hearts we lost 5-1.

Hibs are cheered out everyweek what happens thereafter is down to them ,conceeding goals even before folk have sat down of late.

Pat wasn't very good nor were some of his signings that is it.

[number 27]

That's if the opposition fans are in the rut some of our fans are, which ain't always the case.


If other teams were in the rut we are then very few of them would still be getting the numbers and the level of support we do.

Of course some moan too much and some throw out ridiculous abuse but taken as a whole I think our fans can be proud of themselves, I wish all other elements of the club had performed so well.

[Captain Trips]

That's if the opposition fans are in the rut some of our fans are, which ain't always the case.

Hibs fans shout out stuff when we are 2nd top or 2nd bottom so they do not need to be in rut. All the clubs around us now are in same rut so all home support abuse is IMO levelled so it goes down to ability.

[Hibrandenburg]

If you can accept that supporters can give their team a moral boost by urging on their team then you have to accept that the jeering of our team has the opposite effect.

Some really need to check the definition of "supporter" in the dictionary and then maybe reassess what they consider themselves to be.

[Captain Trips]

If you can accept that supporters can give their team a moral boost by urging on their team then you have to accept that the jeering of our team has the opposite effect.

Some really need to check the definition of "supporter" in the dictionary and then maybe reassess what they consider themselves to be.

The amount that cheer onto park far far outways abuse by some during game. It is not everyone cheering to everyone giving stick.

[Kato]

Hibs fans shout out stuff when we are 2nd top or 2nd bottom so they do not need to be in rut. All the clubs around us now are in same rut so all home support abuse is IMO levelled so it goes down to ability.


So why when 30,000 cheered us out vs Hearts we lost 5-1.

Hibs are cheered out everyweek what happens thereafter is down to them ,conceeding goals even before folk have sat down of late.

Pat wasn't very good nor were some of his signings that is it.


You seem to arguing from the point of view that cheering/barracking is the be all and end all deciding factor.

No one is saying that - the argument is that it is a contributing element.

Saying that I can see you are never going to change your precious "opinion".

I remember before people thought that these message boards were "opinion" boards. They are actually discussion boards in which people are given the chance to express opinion and listen to others - and maybe even change their opinion depending how the discussion goes.

[Fergus52]

Our support at last years cup final was absolutely superb, the players were their usual limp wristed 2nd to every ball half hearted crap. We also played a centre forward who was 50% fit, was that the fans fault? When Maybury sclafed the ball out towards the line only for Stokes to cross the ball in without being put under any type of pressure, was that the fans fault too?

When the cross came in and Williams was rooted to his line, was that the fans fault, and when Hanlon left Hooper to score while marking him from 5 yards, was that the fans fault too?

I agree that some of the abuse is way over the top, i actually witnessed it myself when Colin Nish was terribly abused one game a few seasons ago.

I have also witnessed it at Arsenal, Tottenham, Blackpool and countless Scottish games. We are not alone in this, it happens all over the country.

This post is a bit embarrassing, I don't think anyone on the thread has said that anything is specifically the fans fault.

Some posters just think that we're more at fault than we like to take the blame for, which is a matter of opinion.

[jeffers]

I question everything that was "allegedly" said by PF in the whole piece. Some parts make no sense per wage then trying to buy folk who surely would have been on more. I do not expect any manager or player to say anything other than they are affected by folk shouting as why would they want shouted at.


Players get shouted at by all clubs it isnt even a factor for me as to the mire we are in and it deflects from more pressing footballing matters as the reason.

Like I said at the end my OP this is what I was told, up to you or anyone else if they believe it, but you are questioning everything ? Really ?? I accept that I have posted what a mate told me and the members of this message board don't know him, but he is not a liar and if he tells me this is what PF said to him I believe it. The only doubt would be if PF was misleading him but I genuinely don't see what he would gain by that.

I'm not sure what parts make no sense to you. I quoted what our top earner(s) get(s) and that to get them to accept that we paid a signing on fee. I didn't mention any player we tried to sign other than LG and while this is pure speculation on my part maybe they felt he was the one player who merited a wage higher than the others and were prepared to break the wage limit for him. Re the bit in bold, yes I was surprised to hear the figure too but just because we would expect them to be on more doesn't mean they are.

The 2 points that seem to be generating most comment are the ones about our expectations and getting on the players backs during games. I personally disagree with him on the former (as did my mate) but the main point he was making wasn't that we shouldn't be top 4/winning cups just that we weren't in a position to do so right now. As for getting on players backs, he wasn't trying to deflect blame from his own shortcomings, but he was making the point that it didn't help the players and while I personally don't hear anything particularly bad where I sit I can't disagree that shouting at players doesn't help them perform. And whether I agree that it is a big thing or not PF is not the only manager who has commented on it.

[Hibrandenburg]

The amount that cheer onto park far far outways abuse by some during game. It is not everyone cheering to everyone giving stick.

I'd disagree with that. The atmosphere at ER can be quite poisonous towards the team and the circumstances can dictate that only those jeering get heard whilst the majority stay silent.

[S4uzee]

I like how the players get boood off at half-time and cheered on at the start of the 2nd half

[Captain Trips]

You seem to arguing from the point of view that cheering/barracking is the be all and end all deciding factor.

No one is saying that - the argument is that it is a contributing element.

Saying that I can see you are never going to change your precious "opinion".

I remember before people thought that these message boards were "opinion" boards. They are actually discussion boards in which people are given the chance to express opinion and listen to others - and maybe even change their opinion depending how the discussion goes.

Well you are not going to change your "precious" opinion either though. I didnt say it was is deciding factor I am saying it happens at all clubs so it is a leveller. The playing staff and manager are almost 100% of the reason we will make it or not.

It is a discussion of which I think I am right as do you so the part in bold apply to yourself?

[Captain Trips]

I'd disagree with that. The atmosphere at ER can be quite poisonous towards the team and the circumstances can dictate that only those jeering get heard whilst the majority stay silent.

Why is that the case then if true? What has occured for this scenario to be happening?

[Captain Trips]

Like I said at the end my OP this is what I was told, up to you or anyone else if they believe it, but you are questioning everything ? Really ?? I accept that I have posted what a mate told me and the members of this message board don't know him, but he is not a liar and if he tells me this is what PF said to him I believe it. The only doubt would be if PF was misleading him but I genuinely don't see what he would gain by that.

I'm not sure what parts make no sense to you. I quoted what our top earner(s) get(s) and that to get them to accept that we paid a signing on fee. I didn't mention any player we tried to sign other than LG and while this is pure speculation on my part maybe they felt he was the one player who merited a wage higher than the others and were prepared to break the wage limit for him. Re the bit in bold, yes I was surprised to hear the figure too but just because we would expect them to be on more doesn't mean they are.

The 2 points that seem to be generating most comment are the ones about our expectations and getting on the players backs during games. I personally disagree with him on the former (as did my mate) but the main point he was making wasn't that we shouldn't be top 4/winning cups just that we weren't in a position to do so right now. As for getting on players backs, he wasn't trying to deflect blame from his own shortcomings, but he was making the point that it didn't help the players and while I personally don't hear anything particularly bad where I sit I can't disagree that shouting at players doesn't help them perform. And whether I agree that it is a big thing or not PF is not the only manager who has commented on it.

I am not questiong PF said this to somebody you know and they related it, I am questiong the validity of all PF has said for reasons I gave about wages. If he said that then I do not believe him so therefore I will then question everything he told your friend as being true.

[jeffers]

I am not questiong PF said this to somebody you know and they related it, I am questiong the validity of all PF has said for reasons I gave about wages. If he said that then I do not believe him so therefore I will then question everything he told your friend as being true.

Fair enough, and I can only reiterate that it was speculation on my part that we were willing to break the wage limit to sign LG. But if that is correct wouldn't that make the comment re what we currently pay our top earners plausible and accordingly the other things I have posted ?

[Kato]

Well you are not going to change your "precious" opinion either though. I didnt say it was is deciding factor I am saying it happens at all clubs so it is a leveller. The playing staff and manager are almost 100% of the reason we will make it or not.

It is a discussion of which I think I am right as do you so the part in bold apply to yourself?


It doesn't happen at all clubs at the same level week to week, it varies between clubs and is worse at certain times and non-existent at other times. So it isn't a leveller at all.

It's not my "precious" opinion that a teams own fans can help a team turn in poor displays. It's a common held truism in football.

[Captain Trips]

Fair enough, and I can only reiterate that it was speculation on my part that we were willing to break the wage limit to sign LG. But if that is correct wouldn't that make the comment re what we currently pay our top earners plausible and accordingly the other things I have posted ?


Then we do not have a wage cap then do we? We have won until we want somebody good enough to break it then? It just looks and sounds like PF had to deal with all this so therefore it contributed to his record all seems to convienient on his part. Only fault lost dressing room but never said how was it players fault or his the dressing room was lost.

Just doesnt all seem right to me is all, please be aware I am not questioning you or what your friend told you.

[Captain Trips]

It doesn't happen at all clubs at the same level week to week, it varies between clubs and is worse at certain times and non-existent at other times. So it isn't a leveller at all.

It's not my "precious" opinion that a teams own fans can help a team turn in poor displays. It's a common held truism in football.

It is a leveller as that all applies to us as well as every team over course of season we will catch teams in all sorts of form and vice versa making it for me a leveller, I do not think it is a factor in our position you think it has played part thats fine.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why is that the case then if true? What has occured for this scenario to be happening?

Does it matter? Either you're a supporter of your team or your not. If you jeer your team then you're not supporting them, on the contrary you're actively damaging their performance.

[Captain Trips]

Does it matter? Either you're a supporter of your team or your not. If you jeer your team then your not supporting them, on the contrary you're actively damaging their performance.

Personal abuse isnt acceptable a boo at HT is IMO certainly acceptable. I can say clapping off crap can give idea that was ok so damage can be done either way. Booing at HT and at end is ok by me if you think not then fine.

Yes it does matter it matters far more than the booing. Why were we 11th then 7th?

[Kato]

It is a leveller as that all applies to us as well as every team over course of season we will catch teams in all sorts of form and vice versa making it for me a leveller, I do not think it is a factor in our position you think it has played part thats fine.

OK, so by claiming that you are admitting that if Hibs fans stopped it would give us an advantage.

[BSEJVT]

The problem is that I don't believe that there are that many people who turn up with the sole thought of abusing the team or players and therefore rather than it being a conscious decision to do so it is a reaction to what they see.

I am perfectly prepared to accept that tolerance is far lower than it would be if the team were playing better and /or getting better results, but many people are, as I once was, completely mentally over invested in Hibs performances and results.

I never wanted to be the angry guy who reacted badly to poor play / results whether by an individual or the team, but there were times they drove me mad with frustration.

My outbursts tended not to be directed at any one in particular as I think there are only 2 things worth decrying an individual for, not trying or bottling a challenge.

If they aren't good enough its not their fault, its the managers for picking them!

There were also times when they made me delighted with what they had achieved and were encouraged accordingly.

In an ideal world they would be constantly encouraged and forgiven their individual and collective mishaps but few things in life are ideal.

It got so bad for me that I just stopped going as I wasn't enjoying it, didn't like what it made me or how it just flat depressed me.

The problem with that approach is that day by day you become less involved and less interested.

IMO its chicken and egg, if the team performs the crowd will support them and the niggles we see will disappear.

The hard part of that that all our recent managers have failed to identify is individuals mentally capable of getting us to that point instead of retreating further into their shell at the first catcall.

[happiehibbie]

Some questions

How can you let your team know if there performance is exceptable after the first half ?

and again at full time ?

do you have to clap and cheer to show your support ?

Me ! I will boo when am not happy with the performance I want to let my team know that they need to improve! does that make me a Bad supporter ?

[Captain Trips]

OK, so by claiming that you are admitting that if Hibs fans stopped it would give us an advantage.

Of course it would I never said it wouldnt but it will not happen ever with 1000s of different people going to games it will not fully stop, nor will it fully stop for other clubs. I am saying IMO it deoesnt really make a difference to match results regardless as we have played poorly when support all appeared to be behind team and I have seen us win in less of an atmosphere.

The major factor is the players selected and how they are put out this is were the concentration should be we are arguing or debating over a totally subjective thing that occurs at all clubs and may or may not play a very very small part. Who is to say a guy got booed and said **** you and played better?

It is something there is no real marker for. I think there are far far more important things going on that decide matches some folk shouting out for me isnt one of them.

[jeffers]

Then we do not have a wage cap then do we? We have won until we want somebody good enough to break it then? It just looks and sounds like PF had to deal with all this so therefore it contributed to his record all seems to convienient on his part. Only fault lost dressing room but never said how was it players fault or his the dressing room was lost.

Just doesnt all seem right to me is all, please be aware I am not questioning you or what your friend told you.

I suppose it's all about wording and maybe even how I am expressing what I was told. But let's say there is no wage cap if the facts are we are not paying more than £1800 pw isn't that the significant point ? We both agree that we expected players to be on more than that.

I genuinely didn't get the impression that PF was making excuses, he was merely stating that we were missing out on players to teams we shouldn't be and it was down to what we are willing to pay them. What he said merely confirmed (for me anyway) what others such as Tom English have said. I don't believe PF was saying if only he hadn't missed out on these players everything would have been OK.

It would be easier for me to pull PF on up things he did at Hibs, he's not my friend, I've never met him. My mate is friends with him and he wasn't going to tear into him about why his time at Hibs was ultimately a failure, but he did admit he got things wrong and in the end he resigned. To put the comment re losing the dressing room into context, he said the players hadn't followed instructions v Aberdeen and at half time he could tell when speaking to them that they weren't listening and knew then it was time to quit.

And no worries I appreciate you aren't questioning me. For me I happpen to believe what was said, it explains why, to an extent we are where we are.

Cheers.

[Captain Trips]

I suppose it's all about wording and maybe even how I am expressing what I was told. But let's say there is no wage cap if the facts are we are not paying more than £1800 pw isn't that the significant point ? We both agree that we expected players to be on more than that.

I genuinely didn't get the impression that PF was making excuses, he was merely stating that we were missing out on players to teams we shouldn't be and it was down to what we are willing to pay them. What he said merely confirmed (for me anyway) what others such as Tom English have said. I don't believe PF was saying if only he hadn't missed out on these players everything would have been OK.

It would be easier for me to pull PF on up things he did at Hibs, he's not my friend, I've never met him. My mate is friends with him and he wasn't going to tear into him about why his time at Hibs was ultimately a failure, but he did admit he got things wrong and in the end he resigned. To put the comment re losing the dressing room into context, he said the players hadn't followed instructions v Aberdeen and at half time he could tell when speaking to them that they weren't listening and knew then it was time to quit.

And no worries I appreciate you aren't questioning me. For me I happpen to believe what was said, it explains why, to an extent we are where we are.

Cheers.

Big point is "if". I didnt ever really think about it I would have thought perhaps Collins was on more due to paying a fee he might have been on a good wage previous. I do not understand if we had a cap upto say £1800 but it could be broken for right player then surely there is no cap. The only way that could work is if PF found a player but Rod didnt agree to up the wage cap for but was willing to for LG a player Rod perhaps himself rated that would be something totally different.

[jeffers]

Big point is "if". I didnt ever really think about it I would have thought perhaps Collins was on more due to paying a fee he might have been on a good wage previous. I do not understand if we had a cap upto say £1800 but it could be broken for right player then surely there is no cap. The only way that could work is if PF found a player but Rod didnt agree to up the wage cap for but was willing to for LG a player Rod perhaps himself rated that would be something totally different.

I suppose we could debate whether there is a cap or not, but that was how I took it. For sake of discussion let's say I'm wrong and there is no cap but it is true that noone is on more than £1800 pw because RP didn't feel anyone was worth more than that ? Wouldn't that be a concern ? While I believe PF had some input ultimately it was RP who decided what we pay in wages.

I hate being one of these posters who says they know things but won't share them, however I was told a few other things that I don't think should be posted on an internet message board. But they lead me to believe what I did post re wages is spot on. I will leave it there, I respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from.

Cheers.

[Captain Trips]

I suppose we could debate whether there is a cap or not, but that was how I took it. For sake of discussion let's say I'm wrong and there is no cap but it is true that noone is on more than £1800 pw because RP didn't feel anyone was worth more than that ? Wouldn't that be a concern ? While I believe PF had some input ultimately it was RP who decided what we pay in wages.

I hate being one of these posters who says they know things but won't share them, however I was told a few other things that I don't think should be posted on an internet message board. But they lead me to believe what I did post re wages is spot on. I will leave it there, I respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from.

Cheers.

That is fine and I did say that if the structure could be broke but only if Petrie thought so then that was/is a major issue. If there is a cap but could only be broke if Rod thought the player acceptable of it then indeed we do have problems.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

I like how the players get boood off at half-time and cheered on at the start of the 2nd half

Same. Booing achieves absolutely nothing!

[Captain Trips]

Same. Booing achieves absolutely nothing!

And we know this? A manager has never once said you were booed off at half time and used it at HT during talk to our adavantage? Do you think that has never happened once ever? Have the players heads dropped never to be picked up do we think that has ever happened at least once.

No proof at all that booing at HT does nothing positive. All players are individuals yet all seeming to be tarred with it affects them, how do you know? Booing might spur player x for all you or I know. It is by the by it is pretty much irrelevent to how we do anyways.

[Hibrandenburg]

Some questions

How can you let your team know if there performance is exceptable after the first half ?

and again at full time ?

do you have to clap and cheer to show your support ?

Me ! I will boo when am not happy with the performance I want to let my team know that they need to improve! does that make me a Bad supporter ?

Supporter=Someone who supports their team
Critic=Someone who criticises their team

Guess that makes you a Hibs critic. :wink:

[Captain Trips]

Supporter=Someone who supports their team
Critic=Someone who criticises their team in order they listen and sort it

Guess that makes you a Hibs critic. :wink:

Fixed that for you :wink:

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

And we know this? A manager has never once said you were booed off at half time and used it at HT during talk to our adavantage? Do you think that has never happened once ever? Have the players heads dropped never to be picked up do we think that has ever happened at least once.

No proof at all the a booing at HT does nothing positive. All players are individuals yet all seeming to be tarred with it affects them, how do you know? Booing might spur player x for all you or I know. It is by the by it is pretty much irrelevent to how we do anyways.

There's no evidence to suggest that it does anything positive or make the team/certain players raise their game. If it did I am pretty sure we wouldn't be in our current position, with the amount of booing that goes on at ER these days.

FWIW, I just do not see the point in booing. Therefore I do not do it.

[Captain Trips]

There's no evidence to suggest that it does anything positive or make the team/certain players raise their game. If it did I am pretty sure we wouldn't be in our current position, with the amount of booing that goes on at ER these days.

FWIW, I just do not see the point in booing. Therefore I do not do it.

We can disagree not a problem.

Boooooo to your opinions I say.

[Hibrandenburg]

Fixed that for you :wink:

Aye, that's been working a treat right enough. Criticism only works when it's constructive and taken on board. Shouting Boo!, Your *****! or similar hardly counts as constructive. However if your shouting includes suggestions on the advantages of a quick change between defensive and attacking formations when we win the ball and vice versa when we lose it, then accept my sincere apologies and thanks from the players for your sound advice, I'm sure it's of great benefit to them.

[Captain Trips]

Aye, that's been working a treat right enough. Criticism only works when it's constructive and taken on board. Shouting Boo!, Your *****! or similar hardly counts as constructive. However if your shouting includes suggestions on the advantages of a quick change between defensive and attacking formations when we win the ball and vice versa when we lose it, then accept my sincere apologies and thanks from the players for your sound advice, I'm sure it's of great benefit to them.

Booing and swearing abuse at a player are not same. I have shouted some great tactical advice and unfortunatly it hasn't been heeded.

[Hibrandenburg]

Booing and swearing abuse at a player are not same. I have shouted some great tactical advice and unfortunatly it hasn't been heeded.

Butcher out Carlsberg in.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

We can disagree not a problem.

Boooooo to your opinions I say.

:greengrin

[Captain Trips]

Butcher out Carlsberg in.

Now we are talking :thumbsup:

Just do not boo me off or shout "friendly" team advice.

[Northernhibee]

To hell with taking the opinions of respected and successful manager Stuart McCall or ex Hibs manager Pat Fenlon, the armchair critics are right, let's booooooooooooooo at any given opportunity. What would they know :rolleyes:

****ing booooooooooo Hibs.

[Captain Trips]

To hell with taking the opinions of respected and successful manager Stuart McCall or ex Hibs manager Pat Fenlon, the armchair critics are right, let's booooooooooooooo at any given opportunity. What would they know :rolleyes:

****ing booooooooooo Hibs.

Indeed Stuart "Hibs" McCall and of course the views of Pat "deflecting" Fenlon.

[Northernhibee]

Indeed Stuart "Hibs" McCall and of course the views of Pat "deflecting" Fenlon.

The answers are consistently put right in front of us and too many don't even notice.

[Captain Trips]

The answers are consistently put right in front of us and too many don't even notice.

I will remember to subscribe to Stuart McCalls newsletter. The answers were there all right.

[Kato]

Of course it would I never said it wouldnt but it will not happen ever with 1000s of different people going to games it will not fully stop, nor will it fully stop for other clubs. I am saying IMO it deoesnt really make a difference to match results regardless as we have played poorly when support all appeared to be behind team and I have seen us win in less of an atmosphere.

The major factor is the players selected and how they are put out this is were the concentration should be we are arguing or debating over a totally subjective thing that occurs at all clubs and may or may not play a very very small part. Who is to say a guy got booed and said **** you and played better?

It is something there is no real marker for. I think there are far far more important things going on that decide matches some folk shouting out for me isnt one of them.

I'm respecting your opinion a bit more but still disagree I reckon the instances are more common at ER so much it's turned into a bit of subculture.

[Captain Trips]

I'm respecting your opinion a bit more but still disagree I reckon the instances are more common at ER so much it's turned into a bit of subculture.

I really just get things down to basics for me Kato, booing and moaning just goes on at all clubs rightly or wrongly so for me it isnt really ever a factor. I am sure there are the odd extremes I just coudnt afford a plane with a banner saying "wrong one Fenlon out". It happens all over.

The basics are he and before him Calderwood were just not very good setting out a team and didnt help themselves by wasting any budgets on players not good enough.. I respect everyones opinion on here we all want the best we may not all go about it same but we want the best.

I think there is this need to not look at the players or manager and say something else is influencing things when for me it really isnt. I just want to go to games thinking we will win and it actually being a surprise if we lose and I havent felt like that for I would say many years. Before looking at the stands and what goes on there the club need to get the basics right and that is the right manager and the right players. I am unsure as to us having that at this juncture and that is at the forefront of my fears is TB right?

As it stands the only fears I have for the supports influence is that enough people want to actually go.