Butcher isn't the problem. Neither is Petrie.

[Gus Fring]

Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.

[dmc1875]

Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.

Its a tough one. There is no doubt that Fenlons time was up. Is the team he assembled, playing the way he was playing good enough? No

Should they be in the mess they are now? No.

The jurys out whether or not fenlons team would be in the same position but we have to remember fenlon and butchers philosophies and the way they set their teams out are very very different. The squad is not suited to the way Butcher plays. Should he have tried to adapt a bit? Probably.

Interesting article back in Jan analysing Hibs' form after we went on a wee run under Butcher. They seemed to suggest that Hibs go through phases and it wasn't so much a new managerial bounce, more that the tide just turned as it had several times before.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/hibernian/259735-half-term-stats-report-analysing-the-terry-butcher-effect-at-hibernian/

[SonOfDavidFrancey]

I agree with you. I also think the comedy at the PBS has been part of the problem in leading to everyone taking their eye off the ball.


Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.

[Ricky Bobby]

Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.


Agree with this. The current playing squad, other than a few promising youngsters is patently not good enough. in my opinion we have have not had a manager with a proper signing strategy since McLeish.

[Gus Fring]

Agree with this. The current playing squad, other than a few promising youngsters is patently not good enough. in my opinion we have have not had a manager with a proper signing strategy since McLeish.

I think Butcher will have a signing strategy come the summer. He's got his own dedicated scout and he himself has been spotted at several games keeping an eye on talent. I don't recall this happening with many of the last few managers (could just be reported less of course).

[TornadoHibby]

I think Butcher will have a signing strategy come the summer. He's got his own dedicated scout and he himself has been spotted at several games keeping an eye on talent. I don't recall this happening with many of the last few managers (could just be reported less of course).

Would that be the scout who doubles up as GJK coach who was standing belethering at the back of the West Stad around 12.10pm today when he should have been on th epitch warming up Williams and the other keepers!? :confused:

[HFC 0-7]

Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.

I think butcher is the right man but completely disagree with Petrie. He had invested in everything but th team. When you have to re build you need more than just your normal player budget. Selling the top talent and not re investing on the squad is where it's all gone wrong. IMO, Petrie hedged his bets that there would be a steady stream of young talent coming through. It didn't. The blame for the string of failed managers has to fall at the feet of Petrie. The cost of paying off staff deemed not good enough makes it harder for profability and the only way to remain in the black if the income is decreasing because the product is rank is to cut costs. I think butcher is the man, but having a success rate in managers of about 1 in 5 isn't good enough. If butcher is the man then the reality is that he will only be with us for a couple of season before a bigger club comes in and he is off.

To keep progressing we need a chairman that can hire the correct manager each time or we will forever be in the cycle of 1 or 2 good seasons followed by 6 or 7 bad ones.

[Ozyhibby]

Petrie is the head of an organisation that is failing badly. He is responsible.
The 'deputy heads must roll' attitude at Hibs has to stop. Petrie is in control of everything at Hibs and the club is sinking. There has to be proper accountability.

[Gus Fring]

Would that be the scout who doubles up as GJK coach who was standing belethering at the back of the West Stad around 12.10pm today when he should have been on th epitch warming up Williams and the other keepers!? :confused:

I recall seeing him doing the warm up with the goalies at one point. I sit in the FF so wouldn't be able to see if he went into the west at any point. I don't think not being present for a full warmup has any bearing on how good a scout he is though.


I think butcher is the right man but completely disagree with Petrie. He had invested in everything but th team. When you have to re build you need more than just your normal player budget. Selling the top talent and not re investing on the squad is where it's all gone wrong. IMO, Petrie hedged his bets that there would be a steady stream of young talent coming through. It didn't. The blame for the string of failed managers has to fall at the feet of Petrie. The cost of paying off staff deemed not good enough makes it harder for profability and the only way to remain in the black if the income is decreasing because the product is rank is to cut costs. I think butcher is the man, but having a success rate in managers of about 1 in 5 isn't good enough. If butcher is the man then the reality is that he will only be with us for a couple of season before a bigger club comes in and he is off.

To keep progressing we need a chairman that can hire the correct manager each time or we will forever be in the cycle of 1 or 2 good seasons followed by 6 or 7 bad ones.

IIRC Petrie wasn't involved in appointing Fenlon and since he quit there wasn't any compensation due either, which is what allowed us to pay compensation to ICT for Butcher, Malpas and Marsella.

We haven't sold a player for any significant value for a few seasons and if it wasn't reinvested in the squad, where did it go? I've just named 3 prospective players that could go on to net us some decent money in Harris, Cummings and Stanton. But do we try and keep those players< taking money out of the wage pot for new players, or do we sell them and hope the replacement is as good or better?

Where is all this money coming from? The bank won't lend it to us, we haven't sold any players and fans aren't turning up.

Are you able to name me a Scottish Premiership side that has a chairman that's been able to consistently appoint good managers?

[The Green Goblin]

I recall seeing him doing the warm up with the goalies at one point. I sit in the FF so wouldn't be able to see if he went into the west at any point. I don't think not being present for a full warmup has any bearing on how good a scout he is though.



IIRC Petrie wasn't involved in appointing Fenlon and since he quit there wasn't any compensation due either, which is what allowed us to pay compensation to ICT for Butcher, Malpas and Marsella.

We haven't sold a player for any significant value for a few seasons and if it wasn't reinvested in the squad, where did it go? I've just named 3 prospective players that could go on to net us some decent money in Harris, Cummings and Stanton. But do we try and keep those players< taking money out of the wage pot for new players, or do we sell them and hope the replacement is as good or better?

Where is all this money coming from? The bank won't lend it to us, we haven't sold any players and fans aren't turning up.

Are you able to name me a Scottish Premiership side that has a chairman that's been able to consistently appoint good managers?

St. Johnstone seem to manage it.

[Scooter]

I recall seeing him doing the warm up with the goalies at one point. I sit in the FF so wouldn't be able to see if he went into the west at any point. I don't think not being present for a full warmup has any bearing on how good a scout he is though.



IIRC Petrie wasn't involved in appointing Fenlon and since he quit there wasn't any compensation due either, which is what allowed us to pay compensation to ICT for Butcher, Malpas and Marsella.

We haven't sold a player for any significant value for a few seasons and if it wasn't reinvested in the squad, where did it go? I've just named 3 prospective players that could go on to net us some decent money in Harris, Cummings and Stanton. But do we try and keep those players< taking money out of the wage pot for new players, or do we sell them and hope the replacement is as good or better?

Where is all this money coming from? The bank won't lend it to us, we haven't sold any players and fans aren't turning up.

Are you able to name me a Scottish Premiership side that has a chairman that's been able to consistently appoint good managers?

Does anyone actually believe that. Butcher can't order football's for training without Petrie signing off on it

[Peevemor]

Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.

Spot on.

[Patatango]

Petrie's the man in overall charge of the club and, for about the last 5-6 years has overseen a continual slide in the clubs fortune over that time. If he's not to blame for our present predicament, who is?
No doubt he's done a good job on the business side of things but the footballing side is and has been totally rank.

[Northernhibee]

Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.

It is Petrie's fault how we ended up with the players you've mentioned coming to us though :wink:

[Gus Fring]

St. Johnstone seem to manage it.

I asked for a chairman, not a club. St Johnstone's current chairman has only appointed one manager. Their previous Chairman appointed Owen Coyle who wasn't a great appointment for them, he didn't really achieve much. Derek Mcinnes was better though, he got them promoted.


Does anyone actually believe that. Butcher can't order football's for training without Petrie signing off on it

That's what was publicly stated at the time. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

[Jack Hackett]

Maybe it's time we had a 'Director of Football' at the club. Someone who actually knows more about football than spreadsheets. Someone who could look knowledgeably at proposed signings by the manager and make judgement calls on what he could do for the team rather than the balance sheet. Someone who cares about how the fans want to see their team play. Someone with a passion for the game.

Someone like Pat Nevin

[Scooter]

I asked for a chairman, not a club. St Johnstone's current chairman has only appointed one manager. Their previous Chairman appointed Owen Coyle who wasn't a great appointment for them, he didn't really achieve much. Derek Mcinnes was better though, he got them promoted.



That's what was publicly stated at the time. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
I had friends and family that worked with in the club at the time it was well know in the club that Petrie was involved they only said that to keep us quite.

[Gus Fring]

Maybe it's time we had a 'Director of Football' at the club. Someone who actually knows more about football than spreadsheets. Someone who could look knowledgeably at proposed signings by the manager and make judgement calls on what he could do for the team rather than the balance sheet. Someone who cares about how the fans want to see their team play. Someone with a passion for the game.

Someone like Pat Nevin

I'd go for John Collins myself.

[Gus Fring]

I had friends and family that worked with in the club at the time it was well know in the club that Petrie was involved they only said that to keep us quite.

Friends and family? The club doesn't have a high turnover of non-playing staff so I assume they are still working there? Can you explain how it is that they all knew about it? Surely Rod would do a better job of keeping it quiet given it could land him and the club in a lot of hot water given the chairman publicly lied to shareholders?

[jeffers]

I recall seeing him doing the warm up with the goalies at one point. I sit in the FF so wouldn't be able to see if he went into the west at any point. I don't think not being present for a full warmup has any bearing on how good a scout he is though.



IIRC Petrie wasn't involved in appointing Fenlon and since he quit there wasn't any compensation due either, which is what allowed us to pay compensation to ICT for Butcher, Malpas and Marsella.

We haven't sold a player for any significant value for a few seasons and if it wasn't reinvested in the squad, where did it go? I've just named 3 prospective players that could go on to net us some decent money in Harris, Cummings and Stanton. But do we try and keep those players< taking money out of the wage pot for new players, or do we sell them and hope the replacement is as good or better?

Where is all this money coming from? The bank won't lend it to us, we haven't sold any players and fans aren't turning up.

Are you able to name me a Scottish Premiership side that has a chairman that's been able to consistently appoint good managers?

Bit in bold, I posted this the other day, while PF did offer his resignation he still received a pay off......

[Jack Hackett]

I'd go for John Collins myself.

I'd go for him, but it will never happen while Petrie is at the club...imo

[Northernhibee]

If the problem isn't Petrie, why was our main signing (Collins) about the 5th or 6th choice of Fenlon? Why did we fail to land a number of players this season such as McManus, Rooney, Flood, Taylor, Griffiths, Wylde etc?

[Gus Fring]

Bit in bold, I posted this the other day, while PF did offer his resignation he still received a pay off......

If true it shows Petrie isn't as tight as it seems then. He paid compensation to the old manager and then paid again for the one he wanted. He could have just picked the best candidate that needed no compensation if all he was worried about was money.

[Scouse Hibee]

Butcher has shown us nothing, it's his job as manager to get the best out of what he has available to him, he hasn't managed to do anything absolute nothing. Fenlon had these same players performing better than Butcher ever has, simply not good enough from Butcher and far too easy to look back and lay the blame at Fenlon's door.

[jeffers]

If true it shows Petrie isn't as tight as it seems then. He paid compensation to the old manager and then paid again for the one he wanted. He could have just picked the best candidate that needed no compensation if all he was worried about was money.

Not sure what to make of it Bajillions. From what I've heard Petrie liked Fenlon and didn't want him to quit. Maybe the fact he paid him off was to stop him talking, maybe I'm just being cynical tho. I do wonder where the money to pay off PF and compensation for the new management team comes from. Maybe that's money that would otherwise be going to the playing budget, so Petrie may well be as tight as depicted he's just choosing to spend what money we have on compensation rather than on players.....

[Gus Fring]

If the problem isn't Petrie, why was our main signing (Collins) about the 5th or 6th choice of Fenlon? Why did we fail to land a number of players this season such as McManus, Rooney, Flood, Taylor, Griffiths, Wylde etc?

That's a very easy question to answer. Petrie can't spend money the club hasn't got. Nobody is answering the question of where it's supposed to come from? If these players are targets and other clubs are able to offer them more money, then they are going to go there instead.

These players didn't come to us for the same reason I don't have a mansion and a Ferrari, because we simply can't afford it.

[jeffers]

That's a very easy question to answer. Petrie can't spend money the club hasn't got. Nobody is answering the question of where it's supposed to come from? If these players are targets and other clubs are able to offer them more money, then they are going to go there instead.

These players didn't come to us for the same reason I don't have a mansion and a Ferrari, because we simply can't afford it.

He's certainly culpable re Lyle Taylor. LG aside, Taylor was one of PF's main targets and he'd be interested in him as far back as last January's transfer window. As far as I know he was keen to come to Hibs, but RP made Falkirk more than one offer they deemed insulting. In the end we signed Collins for a sum a little less than we could have got Taylor for......

[Gus Fring]

Butcher has shown us nothing, it's his job as manager to get the best out of what he has available to him, he hasn't managed to do anything absolute nothing. Fenlon had these same players performing better than Butcher ever has, simply not good enough from Butcher and far too easy to look back and lay the blame at Fenlon's door.

We've been beaten by Hearts 4 times this season. 2 of them Fenlon, 2 of them Butcher.

Pat Fenlon oversaw this team of players get a 9-0 aggregate defeat to Malmo over 2 games.

It took Terry Butcher 11 matches 2 concede the same number of goals with the same players.

It was widely considered that Terry Butcher got off to a fantastic start only losing 2 of his first 10 matches and one of them was a very close 1-0 loss away to Celtic.

[Gus Fring]

He's certainly culpable re Lyle Taylor. LG aside, Taylor was one of PF's main targets and he'd be interested in him as far back as last January's transfer window. As far as I know he was keen to come to Hibs, but RP made Falkirk more than one offer they deemed insulting. In the end we signed Collins for a sum a little less than we could have got Taylor for......

I'm not saying Petrie isn't making the decisions, I'm repeatedly asking where all this extra money is supposed to be coming from? If you only have £200k to spend on a player, you can only spend £200k on a player. It doesn't matter if the player we bought cost "a little less" than the one we were after because we never had the money to buy that player in the first place.

Heres an example: If you go into a shop with £5, you can only spend £5. Now you are more than entitled to chance your arm and ask for something that costs £7 and see if they'll sell you it for £5 but they are entitled to feel insulted at the offer as well. When they do, you go elsewhere and see if you can buy a similar product for £5.

[Northernhibee]

That's a very easy question to answer. Petrie can't spend money the club hasn't got. Nobody is answering the question of where it's supposed to come from? If these players are targets and other clubs are able to offer them more money, then they are going to go there instead.

These players didn't come to us for the same reason I don't have a mansion and a Ferrari, because we simply can't afford it.

Simple. Get in five, six, seven seasoned pros and offer the extra £200-300 a week that Petrie haggles on every single time and let them be role models for the youngsters. We make more money from the sale of talented youngsters so can get more decent experienced players in and the cycle continues. It's what other teams have done very well for years.

We get in past it journeymen because we miss out on key targets, the young players don't learn much from them, we release them, and the downward spiral continues.

It'll take an initial burst of investment otherwise that cycle will continue and we'll drop further and further with fewer and fewer supporters watching worse and worse football.

[HFC 0-7]

I recall seeing him doing the warm up with the goalies at one point. I sit in the FF so wouldn't be able to see if he went into the west at any point. I don't think not being present for a full warmup has any bearing on how good a scout he is though.



IIRC Petrie wasn't involved in appointing Fenlon and since he quit there wasn't any compensation due either, which is what allowed us to pay compensation to ICT for Butcher, Malpas and Marsella.

We haven't sold a player for any significant value for a few seasons and if it wasn't reinvested in the squad, where did it go? I've just named 3 prospective players that could go on to net us some decent money in Harris, Cummings and Stanton. But do we try and keep those players< taking money out of the wage pot for new players, or do we sell them and hope the replacement is as good or better?

Where is all this money coming from? The bank won't lend it to us, we haven't sold any players and fans aren't turning up.

Are you able to name me a Scottish Premiership side that has a chairman that's been able to consistently appoint good managers?

Mypoint about the money from the golden generation was that none of it was re invested in the squad, when you lose that much could talent and try to replace it with your ordinary playing budget then it simply won't work.

Do you honestly think that Petrie never had a say in fenlons appointment? Anyway that aside I see you have conveniently not mentioned Hughes, calderwood or mixu. Getting rid of them and their teams would have cost a lot.

Re the part in bold, this is exactly my point. Petrie saw fit to deplete quality from the squad when we were doing well, at a time we were not selling out Easter road and build a larger stadium and build a traing centre. Now, these can be seen as good thing, but what was his plan to start making use of the larger stand, increase revenue to cover the increase running cost of east mains and replace the missing quality of the squad?

You can't deplete your squad of its best talent then expect your normal playing budget to replace it. Although on a far bigger scale, look at man utd. They are going to have to spend far more money that they normally would this window to replace departing players. The only way we would have recovered quickly by paying out the same money each season would be to get a golden generation coming through again. This was petrie's error, we simply couldn't build the stadium, buy and build east mains and improve or maintain the squad on the money made from the golden generation.

If Petrie got the right manager in, four or five managers ago, all the money he has wasted in paying players and managers off could have been given to the one good manager to improve the squad.

He has made too many mistakes, and to repeat a previous point, if butcher turns out to be a success, another team will snap him up and we will be left with Petrie to appoint his successor and given how many failures he has had we will see ourselves back in the same position as now.

[jeffers]

I'm not saying Petrie isn't making the decisions, I'm repeatedly asking where all this extra money is supposed to be coming from? If you only have £200k to spend on a player, you can only spend £200k on a player. It doesn't matter if the player we bought cost "a little less" than the one we were after because we never had the money to buy that player in the first place.

Heres an example: If you go into a shop with £5, you can only spend £5. Now you are more than entitled to chance your arm and ask for something that costs £7 and see if they'll sell you it for £5 but they are entitled to feel insulted at the offer as well. When they do, you go elsewhere and see if you can buy a similar product for £5.

I don't disagree with any of that. All I will say is we did have the money to sign Lyle Taylor, but RP's insulting offers meant we didn't get him. Fwiw I'm not suggesting we spend money we don't have, but I would love to know how we spend what we do have. I keep hearing we have the 3rd biggest budget, but PF thought it was closer to 7th.

[Stax]

That's a very easy question to answer. Petrie can't spend money the club hasn't got. Nobody is answering the question of where it's supposed to come from? If these players are targets and other clubs are able to offer them more money, then they are going to go there instead.

These players didn't come to us for the same reason I don't have a mansion and a Ferrari, because we simply can't afford it.
Outwith Celtic nobody can afford mansions and ferraris. Using your analogy we're in the market for wimpy houses and mondeo's with the rest of the league. The problem is for years now other teams have been keeping up with the jones's in a council house and a beat up old Lada. Our infrastructure is superb but at the moment it feels like all fur coat and Nae knickers..

[Kaiser1962]

Mypoint about the money from the golden generation was that none of it was re invested in the squad, when you lose that much could talent and try to replace it with your ordinary playing budget then it simply won't work.


Most of it was used to pay off previous debts, which forced us to play the youngsters in the first place.

[Spike Mandela]

I'm not saying Petrie isn't making the decisions, I'm repeatedly asking where all this extra money is supposed to be coming from? If you only have £200k to spend on a player, you can only spend £200k on a player. It doesn't matter if the player we bought cost "a little less" than the one we were after because we never had the money to buy that player in the first place.

Heres an example: If you go into a shop with £5, you can only spend £5. Now you are more than entitled to chance your arm and ask for something that costs £7 and see if they'll sell you it for £5 but they are entitled to feel insulted at the offer as well. When they do, you go elsewhere and see if you can buy a similar product for £5.

Isn't it more that Petrie goes into the shop with £100 but won't spend any more than £10 on one item so ends up with 10 x £10 items rather than buying a £50 item, a £30 item and 2 x£10 items?

Better to have 4 first choice targets than 10 budget buys.

[HFC 0-7]

I asked for a chairman, not a club. St Johnstone's current chairman has only appointed one manager. Their previous Chairman appointed Owen Coyle who wasn't a great appointment for them, he didn't really achieve much. Derek Mcinnes was better though, he got them promoted.



That's what was publicly stated at the time. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Since st johnstone were promoted, in I think 2009, they have never finished below 8th I think the worst Dundee utd have finished in the last 10 years is 9th. These teams change manager and cope. Smaller budget, stadium and training facilities.

[HFC 0-7]

Most of it was used to pay off previous debts, which forced us to play the youngsters in the first place.

Most of it, not all of it. The rest went on east mains and the stand. How can you increase income to cover increased running costs when you have just reduced squad quality? Sometimes, even if they would be very good things to have you simply can't afford them, or all of them. The traing centre and stand are great things, but IMO we couldn't afford them without seriously reducing the quality of the squad. Petrie announced his 5 year plan recently without telling us what it was. Now, either it took him from 2007 to think of it, or, he had a 5 year plan, it failed and he is on to his next one.

[Hibercelona]

Petrie is the head of an ever changing organization that still continues to fall way bellow par. Don't tell me that he isn't to blame.

[Gus Fring]

Mypoint about the money from the golden generation was that none of it was re invested in the squad, when you lose that much could talent and try to replace it with your ordinary playing budget then it simply won't work.

As has been answered above, the money was needed to keep the club afloat. Spending it on players wasn't possible.


Do you honestly think that Petrie never had a say in fenlons appointment? Anyway that aside I see you have conveniently not mentioned Hughes, calderwood or mixu. Getting rid of them and their teams would have cost a lot.

Yes, you're right, it did cost a lot. And each time the manager was given money to buy new players. Our turnover of playing staff has been pretty big the last few years.


Re the part in bold, this is exactly my point. Petrie saw fit to deplete quality from the squad when we were doing well, at a time we were not selling out Easter road and build a larger stadium and build a traing centre. Now, these can be seen as good thing, but what was his plan to start making use of the larger stand, increase revenue to cover the increase running cost of east mains and replace the missing quality of the squad?

Easter Road has been used for more than just Hibs games since the east stand was built including 2 big games this season.


You can't deplete your squad of its best talent then expect your normal playing budget to replace it. Although on a far bigger scale, look at man utd. They are going to have to spend far more money that they normally would this window to replace departing players. The only way we would have recovered quickly by paying out the same money each season would be to get a golden generation coming through again. This was petrie's error, we simply couldn't build the stadium, buy and build east mains and improve or maintain the squad on the money made from the golden generation.

Again, you are quite correct. But a so called 'golden generation' isn't a tangible thing. It's only something that can be quantified by looking back at it. Some could argue we have another potential one on our hands just because the u20's are flying and we have some young players in the first team with bags of potential. East Mains is important in helping those players realise that potential.


If Petrie got the right manager in, four or five managers ago, all the money he has wasted in paying players and managers off could have been given to the one good manager to improve the squad.

Again, the "right manager" isn't a tangible thing, nobody knows how good a job someone is going to do until they are in the job. You pick the best you can but as I asked earlier, which current chairman is doing a considerably better job at picking managers?


He has made too many mistakes, and to repeat a previous point, if butcher turns out to be a success, another team will snap him up and we will be left with Petrie to appoint his successor and given how many failures he has had we will see ourselves back in the same position as now.

This point is self defeating. If petrie does a good job we lose the manager and theres a chance he'll appoint a poor one again. It's a lose lose situation either way then. Good manager? Gone. Bad Manager? Gone

[Kaiser1962]

Most of it, not all of it. The rest went on east mains and the stand. How can you increase income to cover increased running costs when you have just reduced squad quality? Sometimes, even if they would be very good things to have you simply can't afford them, or all of them. The traing centre and stand are great things, but IMO we couldn't afford them without seriously reducing the quality of the squad. Petrie announced his 5 year plan recently without telling us what it was. Now, either it took him from 2007 to think of it, or, he had a 5 year plan, it failed and he is on to his next one.

Fletcher's sale was used to build the East. The West was/is mortgaged from before the player sales windfall. The North and South were paid for by STF in the nineties. The training Centre was well underway and the sales simply allowed for better quality development. Most was used to clear the debts built up around the millennium.

How productive East Mains is and if the East was absolutely necessary/too big are different questions.

[Gus Fring]

The amount of money we have coming in and out isn't a mystery, it's all documented in black and white and audited every year.

[#2 Double Tap]

Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.
you do make a lot of sense. time will tell I suppose.

[TheFamous1875]

My own assessment of the current 'football problems' is that on one hand you have Fenlon's squad, which is made up of fruitless players with no creativity, pace on goal scoring ability. They're a team set up to break teams down in the midfield, not concede and that's about it.

On the other hand you've got Terry Butcher, a manager who has built an Inverness squad of disciplined players with pace, power and the ability to create and score goals. Butcher is uncompromising and demanding. As a player he achieved incredible success.

I think his biggest mistake is that he has expected his new, adopted squad to approach and play football the same way he demanded from his own squad and it's backfired. The players we have aren't capable of playing that way and their attitudes and their desire is quite rightly questioned every week.

I think he's alienated the squad by trying to make them play a style of football they're not capable of and catastrophically has told some of them that they're not in his plans BEFORE the season's through! They don't want to play for him, and that's why we're in this mess.

What he should've done is identified his players strengths and their weaknesses and played to them in order to get the best from them. Then after that, he can start imposing his own methods and philosophies on how to play on his own team with his own players. E.g - Thomson sitting in front of the centre halfs dictating play, Stanton behind the striker, Stevenson in the engine room on the left and getting stuck in, Cairney behind the strikers and off the wings, Craig in an attacking position, Harris with the freedom to prowl and dance along the touchline, etc.

I've no doubt he can be a good manager for Hibs, but sadly he's approached his first hurdle as manager in the most self-sabotaging manner possible. So much so, a lot of us are in doubt that he'll even make it to the second hurdle.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Scouse Hibee]

We've been beaten by Hearts 4 times this season. 2 of them Fenlon, 2 of them Butcher.

Pat Fenlon oversaw this team of players get a 9-0 aggregate defeat to Malmo over 2 games.

It took Terry Butcher 11 matches 2 concede the same number of goals with the same players.

It was widely considered that Terry Butcher got off to a fantastic start only losing 2 of his first 10 matches and one of them was a very close 1-0 loss away to Celtic.

It was also widely considered that Butcher had the credentials to improve this team, results tell us differently, oh and Fenlon took this team to two finals, Butcher is taking them to the championship, I know which I prefer!

[IberianHibernian]

Just seen this thread now and have to go to work but will say one thing and that is that Butcher has had fantastic support / protection from press right from the time he signed for us and even before which has made it easy for him and even then I`m sure even he would admit that he`s done a terrible job ( if he doesn`t admit it he shouldn`t be our manager ) . He was appointed because he has this good relation with press and high profile ( which he mentioned in interviews ) and because of knowledge of league we play in where ICT did well last year . Whoever is manager we need to have someone outside managerial team ( Director of Football which I suggested here in times of Mowbray in " good " times ) to bring stability and continuity and to deal with scouting , signings and managerial team . Who ? I don`t know - someone who understands football ( agents , youth teams etc ) but also understands Hibernian FC - our history , expectations etc. John Collins has been mentioned - could be but probably looking for someone at least 10 years older with experience of management , agents , has international contacts etc . Ex Ireland manager Brian Kerr , Laurie Sánchez , ...didn`t like his move to Ibrox but Craig Paterson knows club and has contacts - for this post they should be interviewing 50 people and offering a good salary . Whatever league we`re in next year a new start with a new manager and D of F , a new marketing strategy ( how many tickets has TB`s Army cost us ? ) , . Being positive , great thing is that terrible results brings some searches for improvement - great cup runs under Pat delayed looking for improvement at all levels .

[HKhibby]

St. Johnstone seem to manage it.

Would agree with that! they seem able to do and even maintain mid-table throughout

[HKhibby]

Maybe it's time we had a 'Director of Football' at the club. Someone who actually knows more about football than spreadsheets. Someone who could look knowledgeably at proposed signings by the manager and make judgement calls on what he could do for the team rather than the balance sheet. Someone who cares about how the fans want to see their team play. Someone with a passion for the game.

Someone like Pat Nevin

I agree with this, but cant see Butcher working under a Director of Football

[HFC 0-7]

As has been answered above, the money was needed to keep the club afloat. Spending it on players wasn't possible.



Yes, you're right, it did cost a lot. And each time the manager was given money to buy new players. Our turnover of playing staff has been pretty big the last few years.



Easter Road has been used for more than just Hibs games since the east stand was built including 2 big games this season.



Again, you are quite correct. But a so called 'golden generation' isn't a tangible thing. It's only something that can be quantified by looking back at it. Some could argue we have another potential one on our hands just because the u20's are flying and we have some young players in the first team with bags of potential. East Mains is important in helping those players realise that potential.



Again, the "right manager" isn't a tangible thing, nobody knows how good a job someone is going to do until they are in the job. You pick the best you can but as I asked earlier, which current chairman is doing a considerably better job at picking managers?



This point is self defeating. If petrie does a good job we lose the manager and theres a chance he'll appoint a poor one again. It's a lose lose situation either way then. Good manager? Gone. Bad Manager? Gone


On more time, it costs money to get good players in to build a team around it. More than just your normal playing budget. Lose lots of quality you have to invest to get it back, not just your normal wages. We found money for the east stand and for east mains by selling players, the mistake was to spend it all on these 2 things when the team was reducing in quality.

your last point. Shocking! You are basically saying that this is it, 1 good manager in 5 sort of thing. You seem to accept petries record of manager appointments. I agree, get a good manager and he will be off. What about getting a good manager, get a good team on the pitch, get more fans through the door, increase income, invest in the squad. When the time comes and a bigger club comes calling, the manager goes, but instead of accepting there is only a 1 in 5 chance that the next manager is any good, we have a chairman in place that can spot a good manager straight away and builds on what is already there. Are you saying its acceptable that Petrie has had such a bad record when appointing managers.

in regards to what chairman is doing better, look at st johnstone and Dundee utd, they haven't been fighting relegation like us. Both with smaller budgets.

[Gus Fring]

It was also widely considered that Butcher had the credentials to improve this team, results tell us differently, oh and Fenlon took this team to two finals, Butcher is taking them to the championship, I know which I prefer!

Fenlon took a team to 2 finals. Not this team. Fenlon got this team knocked out of cup competition at the first attempt. Pat Fenlon quit days afterwards.

[Ray_]

That's a very easy question to answer. Petrie can't spend money the club hasn't got. Nobody is answering the question of where it's supposed to come from? If these players are targets and other clubs are able to offer them more money, then they are going to go there instead.

These players didn't come to us for the same reason I don't have a mansion and a Ferrari, because we simply can't afford it.

Like any successful business, the cash will come from the customers who believe they are getting value for money. Hibs playing crap is not going to inspire people to go to matches or encourage then to splash out in the club shop. Who is responsible for Hibs being so second rate [in Scottish terms] over the last few years?

[Lee]

My own assessment of the current 'football problems' is that on one hand you have Fenlon's squad, which is made up of fruitless players with no creativity, pace on goal scoring ability. They're a team set up to break teams down in the midfield, not concede and that's about it.

On the other hand you've got Terry Butcher, a manager who has built an Inverness squad of disciplined players with pace, power and the ability to create and score goals. Butcher is uncompromising and demanding. As a player he achieved incredible success.

I think his biggest mistake is that he has expected his new, adopted squad to approach and play football the same way he demanded from his own squad and it's backfired. The players we have aren't capable of playing that way and their attitudes and their desire is quite rightly questioned every week.

I think he's alienated the squad by trying to make them play a style of football they're not capable of and catastrophically has told some of them that they're not in his plans BEFORE the season's through! They don't want to play for him, and that's why we're in this mess.

What he should've done is identified his players strengths and their weaknesses and played to them in order to get the best from them. Then after that, he can start imposing his own methods and philosophies on how to play on his own team with his own players. E.g - Thomson sitting in front of the centre halfs dictating play, Stanton behind the striker, Stevenson in the engine room on the left and getting stuck in, Cairney behind the strikers and off the wings, Craig in an attacking position, Harris with the freedom to prowl and dance along the touchline, etc.

I've no doubt he can be a good manager for Hibs, but sadly he's approached his first hurdle as manager in the most self-sabotaging manner possible. So much so, a lot of us are in doubt that he'll even make it to the second hurdle.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Spot on - butcher's approach of using round pegs to fill square holes hasn't worked, and the fact he isn't changing it much despite the obvious staring him in the face isn't doing any favours either.

Need to get it right this summer or he'll end up like the ever increasing list of managers who lose their job on the eve of an agm, but I still have faith - just! - that he WILL get it right.

Back on topic, we've simply managed the budget we do have badly for too long. Loads of teams out there from St Johnstone to Dundee United generate a much smaller revenue than us but still manage to out out a competitive team on the park, even after losing players or changing manager.....why is that?

Is it down to Petrie, or is it just bad luck with appointments and the costs that go with changing a management team?

It's these constant changes in manager / severance packages for dud players from previous regimes that is stopping us being able to have a better budget, and probably swallowed up a sizeable amount of any "golden generation" money we did have left

[Gus Fring]

On more time, it costs money to get good players in to build a team around it. More than just your normal playing budget. Lose lots of quality you have to invest to get it back, not just your normal wages. We found money for the east stand and for east mains by selling players, the mistake was to spend it all on these 2 things when the team was reducing in quality.


your last point. Shocking! You are basically saying that this is it, 1 good manager in 5 sort of thing. You seem to accept petries record of manager appointments. I agree, get a good manager and he will be off. What about getting a good manager, get a good team on the pitch, get more fans through the door, increase income, invest in the squad. When the time comes and a bigger club comes calling, the manager goes, but instead of accepting there is only a 1 in 5 chance that the next manager is any good, we have a chairman in place that can spot a good manager straight away and builds on what is already there. Are you saying its acceptable that Petrie has had such a bad record when appointing managers.

in regards to what chairman is doing better, look at st johnstone and Dundee utd, they haven't been fighting relegation like us. Both with smaller budgets.

East mains was completed in the 06/07 season. It was a vital part of the infrastructure that was much needed. The East Stand was built in 2010 and was paid with by a loan from the bank, not player sales as best I can recall.

Consensus is the last season of the 'Golden generation' was 06/07. That season we finished 6th in the league.
The season after that MP was in charge, we finished 6th,
The season after that JH was in charge, we finished 4th,
The season after that CC was in charge, we finished 10th,
The season after that PF was in charge, we finished 11th
The season after that PF was in charge, we finished 7th.

The above tells me that Rod Petrie has appointed one bad manager, Calderwood. We were actually getting better until he came along.

Fenlon then got us back up to 7th but we've never been back in the top six since Calderwoods appointment. If you want to really go by the numbers, out of the 5 managers before Butcher 3 of them were good, 2 of them were bad.

So to answer your question, I don't think Petrie is actually that bad at appointing managers. In fact given that Pat Fenlon had the worst league positions outside of Calderwood but managed to get us to 2 cup finals I'd actually say he's appointed 4 out of 5 good ones. The 'Calderwood Effect' is clear though and that was a horrible appointment.

On your last point of St Johnstone and Dundee United. I'll give you the Arabs, they've been consistently good on a smaller budget. I'm not giving you St Johnstone though because the only reason the haven't been "fighting relegation" is because they spent 7 years in Division 1 before 2009.

[HFC 0-7]

East mains was completed in the 06/07 season. It was a vital part of the infrastructure that was much needed. The East Stand was built in 2010 and was paid with by a loan from the bank, not player sales as best I can recall.

Consensus is the last season of the 'Golden generation' was 06/07. That season we finished 6th in the league.
The season after that MP was in charge, we finished 6th,
The season after that JH was in charge, we finished 4th,
The season after that CC was in charge, we finished 10th,
The season after that PF was in charge, we finished 11th
The season after that PF was in charge, we finished 7th.

The above tells me that Rod Petrie has appointed one bad manager, Calderwood. We were actually getting better until he came along.

Fenlon then got us back up to 7th but we've never been back in the top six since Calderwoods appointment. If you want to really go by the numbers, out of the 5 managers before Butcher 3 of them were good, 2 of them were bad.

So to answer your question, I don't think Petrie is actually that bad at appointing managers. In fact given that Pat Fenlon had the worst league positions outside of Calderwood but managed to get us to 2 cup finals I'd actually say he's appointed 4 out of 5 good ones. The 'Calderwood Effect' is clear though and that was a horrible appointment.

On your last point of St Johnstone and Dundee United. I'll give you the Arabs, they've been consistently good on a smaller budget. I'm not giving you St Johnstone though because the only reason the haven't been "fighting relegation" is because they spent 7 years in Division 1 before 2009.

You are at it, so let me get this right, Petrie has appointed 4 good managers out the last 5? And the only 1 that was bad, Petrie didn't let him go where we would have got money for him?

John Hughes had us third from bottom, when he left.

fenlon is now a good manager because he got to 2 finals and got pumped in both? He also has the worst European defeat by any Scottish team ever to his name and got worse as he went along?

and your last point, the only reason st johnstone have not fought against relegation in the last 5 years is because they spent 7 years in division 1 before 2009? As Del Boy would say.... That's a good one Rodney!

[Saorsa]

Petrie is the head of an organisation that is failing badly. He is responsible.
The 'deputy heads must roll' attitude at Hibs has to stop. Petrie is in control of everything at Hibs and the club is sinking. There has to be proper accountability.:top marks

unfortunately it'll always be somebody else's fault

[H18Y GW]

Does anyone actually believe that. Butcher can't order football's for training without Petrie signing off on it

The footballs will be supplied FOC from Nike as
Part of the sponsorship

The SPFL will also supply balls , which may well
be Nike also .

No way do Hibs pay for balls or butcher has to ask

[Crossgates Hibs]

Reading the forum the last few days we should get rid of our owner, chairman, manager, most of the players, the backroom staff and the training centre.

The way I see it Fenlon built a team that was rubbish. Vine, Collins, Craig, Nelson, none of them are good enough. They got beat 9-0 off Malmo and Hearts beat them twice. Pat walked because "he had taken the team as far as it can go". I'm off the opinion now that this wasn't double-speak but was actually true! This is similar to the Moyes-Man U situation. Fenlon, and Sir Alex seen what was coming and decided to let someone else clear up the mess.

Our best players today and in most other games are ones who were here already, Cummings, Stanton, Harris, Stevenson, Hanlon.

I think TB needs time. He was left with a poor team and in his first several games actually managed to get decent performances out of them but since the New Year Derby the team has slipped back into it's pre-butcher ways. Butcher has proven that, given time, he is able to take a poor side and turn them into a squad that can compete at the top end of the top tier. ICT are proof of that. They've been rubbish since Butcher left (They got beat 6-0 today)

He needs to build a team that plays the way he wants to play, he needs a pre-season under his belt and he needs a summer transfer window to rebuild. I worry that because the fans are choosing to stay away he won't have as much to spend as Pat did but if he can do it at ICT on their budget I'm sure he can do it here.

As for Petrie, asking for his head on a plate is just crazy. He's in charge of making sure the club is run correctly, profitably and for the most part he is doing that. When you look at other clubs like Hearts and Rangers, they haven't been run correctly and are now suffering (Rangers still aren't run correctly because the fans are used to winning) Aberdeen, Dundee United and Kilmarnock all have cut deals to reduce their debt with the bank, we have not been that lucky so we need to do it the old fashioned way, by living within our means and paying our debts.

We can't have it both ways, we can spend big and risk going bust or we can plan for the future. There isn't a team in Scotland (apart from Celtic) who is consistently successful whilst also being sound financially.


Agree 100% with this was going to post something similar. Firstly I wasn't there yesterday due to work but will be there for the Partick game. After the defeat in the League cup to them I vowed I wouldn't be back till PF was emptied which to be honest should have been done at half time against Falkirk. Butcher has made mistakes and I would imagine he would do things differently had he seen us coming to where we are now but hindsight is a great thing. Be honest after the new year derby who seen us in a relegation battle not me I was looking for top six maybe slightly better. We need to stay up by any means and start afresh next year.
im not a fan of Butchers style of play but if we are winning like Inverness were and he has better resources then I'm happy to be proved wrong but he needs time to do this. Until somebody in management speaks out against Petrie then he isn't the main problem. I think he has interfered in the playing side Jimmy nic, Derek Adams, Colin Nish, and a few others that smell of going against a managers wishes but until somebody confirms this then it's all heresay. I'm totally fed up being a Hibs fan just now I don't believe there is any five year plan certainly not on the playing side and we do need leadership on that side possibly a director of football. We fans would be playing the under 20s etc maybe not wrong who knows but we have to back Butcher and give him time he is the first manager since Collins that won't take interference and Petrie must be aware that he is under scrutiny so will have to back his management team next season. I reckon we wouldn't be better off if PF was still here I felt it was starting to crumble prior to the Hearts LC game we need fighters and leaders under Big Eck we had a team of captains nearly just now we have Possibly 3 players who could wear the armband and all three have been out injured out of favour etc. fingers crossed we get over the line as relegation is a disaster for us even if there is probably more attractive games there and better away trips. We would struggle to get back up and suffer badly. If we go to a play off let's pack out both grounds and intimidate our opponents and get this lot over the line.

[Kaiser1962]

On more time, it costs money to get good players in to build a team around it. More than just your normal playing budget. Lose lots of quality you have to invest to get it back, not just your normal wages. We found money for the east stand and for east mains by selling players, the mistake was to spend it all on these 2 things when the team was reducing in quality.

We've done that in the past and it didn't work. That’s why we were forced to play that particular crop of youngsters in the first place. That they did as well as they did at the time is a credit to them but as they improve, and their worth increases, what do we do? When a player gets agents telling him he can get above, sometimes well above, £10k a week elsewhere the club has to do what’s best for the club, particularly since Bosman, whether that is STF and RP or somebody else. The East Stand was unlikely to approved again once the permission had expired (given that the flats were built) and, arguably, needed to done at the time it was. The Club were presented with the opportunity to build it and, rightly or wrongly, took it. East Mains was begun and in operation under Mowbray and completed under Collins. Our Under 20's do well there it's the First Team that appears to struggle to make grade, and the youngsters the step up in the quantities we would like.

There is an argument that putting the youngsters in and letting them get on with it has its rewards. While Hearts have been relegated the improvement in the young players over the season is there to see. United, while inconsistent to a degree, continue to perform well. There is, however, little doubt we should be doing better.

The business argument is confusing as most (all?) businesses success or failure is measured on their balance sheet and, again arguably, measured against our peers, we do ok on this front as there are clearly defined criteria. Football is generally measured on results on the pitch and, again measured against our peers, we do very poorly here using, again, the clearly defined criteria. For arguments sake Rangers (The Rangers) remain the most successful football club in the world and as long as you weren't caught up in the financial fallout (like Hearts and others), and are a fan of said club, you might well agree that it was worth it. There needs to an equilibrium attained and I think that's what we are trying to do, only not doing it very well at the moment.

[sven nil]

"





No way do Hibs pay for balls or butcher has to ask


Well he will need to start asking for some then cause his team has " no balls "

plenty ballbags though.

[number 27]

It is interesting that Petrie is regularly credited with doing a fine job off field, balancing the books etc and yet we are also hearing how we cannot afford to spend any money because we don't have any.

Surely a club which is "streets ahead" of the other teams outwith Celtic, run by a board which is the envy of all those clubs should be doing a better job of boosting revenues? or is failure there all someone elses fault too?

[greenpaper55]

East mains was completed in the 06/07 season. It was a vital part of the infrastructure that was much needed. The East Stand was built in 2010 and was paid with by a loan from the bank, not player sales as best I can recall.

Consensus is the last season of the 'Golden generation' was 06/07. That season we finished 6th in the league.
The season after that MP was in charge, we finished 6th,
The season after that JH was in charge, we finished 4th,
The season after that CC was in charge, we finished 10th,
The season after that PF was in charge, we finished 11th
The season after that PF was in charge, we finished 7th.

The above tells me that Rod Petrie has appointed one bad manager, Calderwood. We were actually getting better until he came along.

Fenlon then got us back up to 7th but we've never been back in the top six since Calderwoods appointment. If you want to really go by the numbers, out of the 5 managers before Butcher 3 of them were good, 2 of them were bad.

So to answer your question, I don't think Petrie is actually that bad at appointing managers. In fact given that Pat Fenlon had the worst league positions outside of Calderwood but managed to get us to 2 cup finals I'd actually say he's appointed 4 out of 5 good ones. The 'Calderwood Effect' is clear though and that was a horrible appointment.

On your last point of St Johnstone and Dundee United. I'll give you the Arabs, they've been consistently good on a smaller budget. I'm not giving you St Johnstone though because the only reason the haven't been "fighting relegation" is because they spent 7 years in Division 1 before 2009.

You must be havin a laugh, one bad manager ? !!!. they were so good they all had to get the sack. I wonder what the collective amount of money is that was used to pay them off ?, more, much more than we have paid in transfer fees for players during this time and how we have suffered for that.

[Saorsa]

It is interesting that Petrie is regularly credited with doing a fine job off field, balancing the books etc and yet we are also hearing how we cannot afford to spend any money because we don't have any.

Surely a club which is "streets ahead" of the other teams outwith Celtic, run by a board which is the envy of all those clubs should be doing a better job of boosting revenues? or is failure there all someone elses fault too?Correct, He runs the show but is only responsible for anything good, everything else is somebody else's fault. :agree: and somebody else will always carry the can.

[Gus Fring]

You are at it, so let me get this right, Petrie has appointed 4 good managers out the last 5? And the only 1 that was bad, Petrie didn't let him go where we would have got money for him?

John Hughes had us third from bottom, when he left.

fenlon is now a good manager because he got to 2 finals and got pumped in both? He also has the worst European defeat by any Scottish team ever to his name and got worse as he went along?

and your last point, the only reason st johnstone have not fought against relegation in the last 5 years is because they spent 7 years in division 1 before 2009? As Del Boy would say.... That's a good one Rodney!

Like I said, a "good manager" isn't a tangible thing. Success is measured in many different ways, as is failure.

[Lester B]

Like I said, a "good manager" isn't a tangible thing. Success is measured in many different ways, as is failure.

May not be a tangible thing but if you take an at best average squad of players and take them on one of the worst runs in our history to the verge of relegation in one of the weakest leagues team by team in years with no semblance of confidence, continuity, tactics to suit the squad we have or evidence of an understanding of the fundamentals of defending a set piece then that surely is a consummate definition of failure as a manager.

We were dull, average and prone to major meltdowns in individual games especially big ones under Fenlon. I don't think we would be in as bad a position as we are now though. Under Butcher we are plunging new depths of mediocrity week on week.

Butcher isn't the problem is the Thread subject. I think a lot of us beg to differ.

[Saorsa]

May not be a tangible thing but if you take an at best average squad of players and take them on one of the worst runs in our history to the verge of relegation in one of the weakest leagues team by team in years with no semblance of confidence, continuity, tactics to suit the squad we have or evidence of an understanding of the fundamentals of defending a set piece then that surely is a consummate definition of failure as a manager.

We were dull, average and prone to major meltdowns in individual games especially big ones under Fenlon. I don't think we would be in as bad a position as we are now though. Under Butcher we are plunging new depths of mediocrity week on week.

Butcher isn't the problem is the Thread subject. I think a lot of us beg to differ.If we reached the heady heights of mediocrity it'd be an improvement on where we are now.

[HFC 0-7]

Like I said, a "good manager" isn't a tangible thing. Success is measured in many different ways, as is failure.

Success is measured by results, plain and simple. Good managers get good results with the tools at his disposal. If what you are saying is that the tools are there but the results haven't then the manager is at fault.

saying 4 out of the last 5 managers were good is just plain nonsense unless you think the performances and results have been good from them.

If you look back over the last 11 seasons, add up each teams points total and average it over 38 games, hibs end up 9th, behind, Celtic, rangers, hearts, Motherwell, Aberdeen, st johnstone, Dundee utd and Inverness.

Look at the last 5 seasons and we end up 10th, behind everyone above but also Ross county.

Ifwe had good managers the stats above would be very different.

[southsider]

Butcher is a huge part of our problem. 6 defeats on the trot is a disgrace. We are in deep sh*t and he has not a clue how to get us out. 5 or 6 changes every week just reeks of desperation and no real game plan. To loose to them (again) should be a sacking offence alone.

[#FromTheCapital]

Agree with most of the OP. Butcher should not be fully judged until he's had a chance to build a squad. Sacking him (not going to happen anyway) or losing him before he's even had that opportunity would be a new low for hibs.
Petrie has to go though. The club needs a whole new approach to things and that's not going to happen while he remains at Easter road.

[Lester B]

Agree with most of the OP. Butcher should not be fully judged until he's had a chance to build a squad. Sacking him (not going to happen anyway) or losing him before he's even had that opportunity would be a new low for hibs.
Petrie has to go though. The club needs a whole new approach to things and that's not going to happen while he remains at Easter road.

I was watching the Football League show on Saturday late with a beer. They were talking about an English League 1 manager, the name escapes me. They stated that he had inherited a squad and had got the best he could out of them, more than the previous manager. Butcher is the opposite. He won't be sacked but he is putting us all through the mill because he cannot pick and set out a team with these players that works. They aren't the greatest squad, far from it, but they are somehow now much less than the sum of their parts.

[#FromTheCapital]

I was watching the Football League show on Saturday late with a beer. They were talking about an English League 1 manager, the name escapes me. They stated that he had inherited a squad and had got the best he could out of them, more than the previous manager. Butcher is the opposite. He won't be sacked but he is putting us all through the mill because he cannot pick and set out a team with these players that works. They aren't the greatest squad, far from it, but they are somehow now much less than the sum of their parts.

Agree to an extent. New managers coming in should not be dragging a mid table side to the bottom. However, in butchers case his style of play is clearly not suited to the current squad. It could be a lot different to the league one manager you refer to.

[southsider]

I was watching the Football League show on Saturday late with a beer. They were talking about an English League 1 manager, the name escapes me. They stated that he had inherited a squad and had got the best he could out of them, more than the previous manager. Butcher is the opposite. He won't be sacked but he is putting us all through the mill because he cannot pick and set out a team with these players that works. They aren't the greatest squad, far from it, but they are somehow now much less than the sum of their parts.
You only have to look at Palace as an example. Certs for relegation until Tony Pulas took over now they are heading for safety with some great results in recent weeks.

[leggeto]

I think RP has to take most of the blame here too many players have been sold on and replaced with rubbish,waiting till last minute for signings, just one example imo

[Lester B]

Agree to an extent. New managers coming in should not be dragging a mid table side to the bottom. However, in butchers case his style of play is clearly not suited to the current squad. It could be a lot different to the league one manager you refer to.

It could be. But surely any decent manager can look at maximising what he inherits. If, and with RP counting the pennies it is an if, he gets the players that play the way he wants to play then fine. But surely he has to have enough nous to find a way of playing that accomodates the players he currently has at his disposal short term. It's his lack of flexibility that galls me.

[RIP]

The business model and the success of the club is the responsibility of the Board. They should be 100% accountable for underperformance.

It's not a lack of honest hours worked that have led us to this slide since 2007. It is simply that our business model is a busted flush and needs radical change to avoid us sliding down the leagues.

All this rhetoric about hiring / funding managers, squad churns and signings is tiresome sematics. It is merely a smokescreen for our business and organisational failure

[Keith_M]

My own assessment of the current 'football problems' is that on one hand you have Fenlon's squad, which is made up of fruitless players with no creativity, pace on goal scoring ability. They're a team set up to break teams down in the midfield, not concede and that's about it.

On the other hand you've got Terry Butcher, a manager who has built an Inverness squad of disciplined players with pace, power and the ability to create and score goals. Butcher is uncompromising and demanding. As a player he achieved incredible success.

I think his biggest mistake is that he has expected his new, adopted squad to approach and play football the same way he demanded from his own squad and it's backfired. The players we have aren't capable of playing that way and their attitudes and their desire is quite rightly questioned every week.

I think he's alienated the squad by trying to make them play a style of football they're not capable of and catastrophically has told some of them that they're not in his plans BEFORE the season's through! They don't want to play for him, and that's why we're in this mess.

What he should've done is identified his players strengths and their weaknesses and played to them in order to get the best from them. Then after that, he can start imposing his own methods and philosophies on how to play on his own team with his own players. E.g - Thomson sitting in front of the centre halfs dictating play, Stanton behind the striker, Stevenson in the engine room on the left and getting stuck in, Cairney behind the strikers and off the wings, Craig in an attacking position, Harris with the freedom to prowl and dance along the touchline, etc.

I've no doubt he can be a good manager for Hibs, but sadly he's approached his first hurdle as manager in the most self-sabotaging manner possible. So much so, a lot of us are in doubt that he'll even make it to the second hurdle.



Thanks for writing most of my reply for me, I agree with that completely :wink:


I think Butcher is good with one style of play and, given time and a decent budget, could bring in the players to achieve that. What he's patently no good at is adapting his style to the players at his disposal. That may well be the thing that causes us to get relegated and lose him the chance of achieving the first aim.

IMHO, while Fenlon was by no means perfect, we would not be staring relegation in the face right now if he was still in charge. We would be somewhere between 6th and 8th place, with no chance of Euro qualification but safe from relegation. Meanwhile, we would be calling for his head saying Hibs should be capable of much more than that. As someone once said, it's a funny old game.....

[jacomo]

It could be. But surely any decent manager can look at maximising what he inherits. If, and with RP counting the pennies it is an if, he gets the players that play the way he wants to play then fine. But surely he has to have enough nous to find a way of playing that accomodates the players he currently has at his disposal short term. It's his lack of flexibility that galls me.

:agree:

Butcher has been at the helm while this team has been dragged into a relegation scrap. No one else.

If we were playing well but suffering a run of bad luck then this could be explained away, but I don't think anyone would argue this is the case. Maybe we deserved a draw on Sunday, maybe not, but this bad run is not down to bad luck.

Clearly he doesn't think much of this squad but a good manager should be able to keep the show on the road while planning for the future.

[eggbamyasi]

Totally agree with bajillions posts . Its just not as simple as some say . Sack this guy ,bring in this guy , do this , do that ....... bingo were brilliant . Its not pc football manager here its real life with real people .and it does my nut in comparing us to any other team in our division imo all teams in scottish prem are so up and down ***** or good its impossible to compare .im sure alot of fans from other teams would love to have our stadium and training facilities and financial stability .but I also understand being hibs fan the dissapointment of team on park . I just think its not as black and white as sack this guy or sack that guy and everything will be brilliant .

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[Ozyhibby]

Rather than some ex player brought in as Director of Football (none of the names mentioned is currently in this role), why not just go for a better CEO such as Leeann Dempster at Motherwell.
Since she arrived at Motherwell they have consistently out performed us (a lot of teams have) and the only time they have changed managers is when they are poached away.
Mostly, these managers are performing at their best at Motherwell and disappointment soon follows when they leave. She managed to make Mark McGhee and Craig Brown look good FFS.
I suspect she creates an environment that allows a manager to perform to the best of their ability.

[jacomo]

Rather than some ex player brought in as Director of Football (none of the names mentioned is currently in this role), why not just go for a better CEO such as Leeann Dempster at Motherwell.
Since she arrived at Motherwell they have consistently out performed us (a lot of teams have) and the only time they have changed managers is when they are poached away.
Mostly, these managers are performing at their best at Motherwell and disappointment soon follows when they leave. She managed to make Mark McGhee and Craig Brown look good FFS.
I suspect she creates an environment that allows a manager to perform to the best of their ability.

:agree:

This is what we should be talking about. Without apportioning blame, Hibs does not seem to have the ideal environment for managers and players to perform to the best of their ability. Why not? How can we change it?

[HFC 0-7]

Totally agree with bajillions posts . Its just not as simple as some say . Sack this guy ,bring in this guy , do this , do that ....... bingo were brilliant . Its not pc football manager here its real life with real people .and it does my nut in comparing us to any other team in our division imo all teams in scottish prem are so up and down ***** or good its impossible to compare .im sure alot of fans from other teams would love to have our stadium and training facilities and financial stability .but I also understand being hibs fan the dissapointment of team on park . I just think its not as black and white as sack this guy or sack that guy and everything will be brilliant .

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

The other teams are not as up and down as us, that's the point. Also, we are not having any ups recently. The stadium and training centre won't matter if we get relegated this season as I wouldn't fancy our chances of coming straight back up with the teams that will be in the championship. It's just our luck that we are honking at the time the league is without rangers and hearts are at the bottom, this would have been the perfect time to push forward. It would also be our luck to get relegated to a league that has never had so many big clubs in it at the same time!

[Bad Martini]

This goes back far enough and aye, lets harp on about the past because it's still affecting our present and guess what, its affecting our future. How many times will Petrie and Co be permitted to get it wrong? Or is it EVERY manager since Collins fault? Lets not forget the only man to win us ANYTHING in a great number of years is (like him or not) John Collins. Fact. Not disputable or ".net" fact, just, a fact. I seem to recall him asking for money too and not getting what was needed...maybe he wanted to much, maybe not but he wasnt backed by the board when it mattered, stabbed in the back by a shower of lazy fekers. Dodgy player signing policy or restricted by "available funds" ??? I'm less sure these days...Collins was no idiot. I wonder how many of his signings were his first, second and third choice.

Priorities were wrong when we expanded our stadium and built the training facilities. YES, in an ideal world we would do both AND have the best squad we could afford. Except, that's not what happened. We sold our best players, replaced them with inferior products and used the cash to build a stand that's never been full and a training ground the Famous Five, the Tornadoes (or even) Collins' cup winning side didnt have or need to win silverware.

Either way, the product on the pitch suffered and I am also sick of hearing about how well Petrie does with the "business" side of it. What is that exactly??? Does the "business" side come in, pay almost £700 for 3 season tickets and fund things? Nope. That'll be us. And we do that, to see the "product" on the park...that IS our "business". We are in the business of (apparently) serving up a "football" team. Business that to me, with such a huge apparent budget IS failing. If not, why are we even talking about play-offs with journeymen (AGAIN) and with **** all to look forward to on the pitch????

The buck stops somewhere? Is it every manager? Maybe. Is it with all the players? Maybe. WHO let things get to that stage, who made the "strategic" decision(s) to not invest in the team and buy a training complex and enlarge our stadium that is never full and is rarely fill to the capacity BEFORE we expanded?

Bollocks. We shouldnt be in this position and we should be in the top six. We'll have the best infrastructure in the championship at this rate with nobody there to pay for it. And this is good "businesss"? If not, something needs done.

If its not Petrie to blame, who is it? Genuine and unloaded question. From where I am sitting, systematic and regular downward trend in results and failure means something is seriously wrong on an ongoing basis.

Ultimately, lots of us will still pump money into the club. Because we love the club. However, it'll reach the point when that's not enough to keep us on an even keel let alone progress...and then what? Is that the point where we all start getting really pissed off?

[southsider]

We have let RP choose the last few managers and it has been one disaster after another. Perhaps it is time to bring in a D of F to run the football side of things. How about Steve Archibald in such a role with the highly rated Ricky Sbragia to coach the players.

[eggbamyasi]

The other teams are not as up and down as us, that's the point. Also, we are not having any ups recently. The stadium and training centre won't matter if we get relegated this season as I wouldn't fancy our chances of coming straight back up with the teams that will be in the championship. It's just our luck that we are honking at the time the league is without rangers and hearts are at the bottom, this would have been the perfect time to push forward. It would also be our luck to get relegated to a league that has never had so many big clubs in it at the same time!

Example of other teams that have been consistently great ? In say last ten years . Remember im not saying we have been or how we are is any good or defending hibs form . But just annoys me people saying . Aberdeen . St johnstone etc etc are run amazingly better than hibs .

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[Ozyhibby]

We have let RP choose the last few managers and it has been one disaster after another. Perhaps it is time to bring in a D of F to run the football side of things. How about Steve Archibald in such a role with the highly rated Ricky Sbragia to coach the players.

Any evidence of Steve Archibald being any good at this or have you just picked his name out of the air because he was a great striker and once played for us?
If so, what about Jimmy O'Rourke? George McCluskey? Gordon Durie?

[GreenPJ]

Example of other teams that have been consistently great ? In say last ten years . Remember im not saying we have been or how we are is any good or defending hibs form . But just annoys me people saying . Aberdeen . St johnstone etc etc are run amazingly better than hibs .

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I agree with your comments although I think St Johnstone are a good case study. OK they don't have a ground the size of ours and their training facilities I have no idea about but assume they are not as comprehensive as ours, they also have a lower cost base as well as income stream and have also had a churn of managers in recent years albeit they have generally left for better opps as opposed to being sacked but they have delivered relatively consistently over that period at a higher level than us (including going a couple of rounds in Europe).

Is this down to the stability and leadership from board level?

[southsider]

Any evidence of Steve Archibald being any good at this or have you just picked his name out of the air because he was a great striker and once played for us?
If so, what about Jimmy O'Rourke? George McCluskey? Gordon Durie?
Brought a few Spanish players over to the UK for trials etc including i believe Martinez. Has good contacts in both Spain and in England. Have watched some Spanish cup games on tv where some of the players in the lower leagues looked pretty decent or perhaps we might even get some Barca 2nd team players before the step up to the first team (i wish !).

[RIP]

I agree with your comments although I think St Johnstone are a good case study. OK they don't have a ground the size of ours and their training facilities I have no idea about but assume they are not as comprehensive as ours, they also have a lower cost base as well as income stream and have also had a churn of managers in recent years albeit they have generally left for better opps as opposed to being sacked but they have delivered relatively consistently over that period at a higher level than us (including going a couple of rounds in Europe).

Is this down to the stability and leadership from board level?

I'm at Saints every week and talk to coaches and fans. They have a simple business model that integrates well into the community and makes good use of volunteers. If a supporter has a problem they simply talk to a director. Coaches and players live and work in the community.

We could do this at Hibs but it would mean closing ranks and shedding the high corporate behaviours. At Hibs supporters post on messageboards and fanny about with emails. WHY?. 'Cos most supporters are too remote from the club - from our players, management and directors. At Hibs, fans feel like employees or customers of a multi-national corporation instead of a valued member of a close-knit family. A community model is the way to go with a traditional football product that people identify with Hibernian FC, it's traditions and values.

[MurrayfieldHibs]

To set the context – Professional Football is an entertainment business.

Chairman
The chairman’s primary role is to ensure that the board is effective in its tasks of setting and implementing the company’s direction and strategy.


Chief Executive Officer (CEO)
Top executive responsible for a firm's overall operations and performance. He or she is the leader of the firm, serves as the main link between the board and the firm's various parts or levels, and is held solely responsible for the firm's success or failure. One of the major duties of a CEO is to maintain and implement corporate policy, as established by the board. Also called President or managing director, he or she may also be the chairman of the board.


Strategy
1. A method or plan chosen to bring about a desired future, such as achievement of a goal or solution to a problem
2. The art and science of planning and marshalling resources for their most efficient and effective use. The term is derived from the Greek word for generalship or leading an army.

[MurrayfieldHibs]

Leadership
The manager's job is to plan, organize and coordinate. The leader's job is to inspire and motivate.
A good leader has personality, courage, clear vision with ambition to succeed.

Hibs Leadership is failing
The investment at East Mains is not making a return on investment
Customers are consistently disappointed with the product and are becoming more and more disillusioned
There is a large (see 2nd January 2014 and recent cup games) and disenfranchised support that will support the team if they play decent, winning football

We have changed the Manager (often), we have changed the players (often), we have changed the coaching staff (often), I believe that we have even changed the tea lady (occasionally). But we still have our great Leader.

[MurrayfieldHibs]

Recent history
Rod did a good job of stabilising the club financially in the face of a lot of pressure to overextend ourselves (see PBS for inevitable outcomes). He sold our best assets at the top of the market and invested in infrastructure at the bottom of the market. He did a good job up to that stage.

But he didn’t move on when the role needed to change as the club moved into a new phase – growth.
Rod is past his sell by date. Time to go

[Ozyhibby]

I'm at Saints every week and talk to coaches and fans. They have a simple business model that integrates well into the community and makes good use of volunteers. If a supporter has a problem they simply talk to a director. Coaches and players live and work in the community.

We could do this at Hibs but it would mean closing ranks and shedding the high corporate behaviours. At Hibs supporters post on messageboards and fanny about with emails. WHY?. 'Cos most supporters are too remote from the club - from our players, management and directors. At Hibs, fans feel like employees or customers of a multi-national corporation instead of a valued member of a close-knit family. A community model is the way to go with a traditional football product that people identify with Hibernian FC, it's traditions and values.

Good post. The club needs to get a lot closer to the supporters.

[MurrayfieldHibs]

Future
We get a new CEO with a bit of spark + business development focus and understands that football is meant to be an entertainment business. We focus our strategy and energy on footballing success while maintaining a prudent approach to financial management. The Manager has a maximum wages to turnover KPI so he has clarity about what he can spend each season.

The majority of the first team come from the youth teams who have come through a structured development programme at East Mains with periods on loan at lower division clubs. The board supports the attraction of additional talent to supplement the home grown talent and is willing to take calculated gambles to secure the right talent.

Simples :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Future
We get a new CEO with a bit of spark + business development focus and understands that football is meant to be an entertainment business. We focus our strategy and energy on footballing success while maintaining a prudent approach to financial management. The Manager has a maximum wages to turnover KPI so he has clarity about what he can spend each season.

The majority of the first team come from the youth teams who have come through a structured development programme at East Mains with periods on loan at lower division clubs. The board supports the attraction of additional talent to supplement the home grown talent and is willing to take calculated gambles to secure the right talent.

Simples :greengrin

And the loans should be to Spartans who hopefully will be in the full league set up within the next couple of years. Means the players can continue to train at East Mains and stay at home.

[Moon unit]

Maybe it's time we had a 'Director of Football' at the club. Someone who actually knows more about football than spreadsheets. Someone who could look knowledgeably at proposed signings by the manager and make judgement calls on what he could do for the team rather than the balance sheet. Someone who cares about how the fans want to see their team play. Someone with a passion for the game.

Someone like Pat Nevin
Nevin in!..would be a great addition. Great football knowledge and a guy who get great respect and feel he could work well with Terry.

[Scouse Hibee]

Nevin in!..would be a great addition. Great football knowledge and a guy who get great respect and feel he could work well with Terry.

:confused: Why do people dream up jobs that they think people would be great at.

[Scouse Hibee]

Fenlon took a team to 2 finals. Not this team. Fenlon got this team knocked out of cup competition at the first attempt. Pat Fenlon quit days afterwards.


This team............... that team blah blah. Fenlon took this club to two finals Butcher is taking this club to the championship.......is that better for you!

[Kaiser1962]

Nevin in!..would be a great addition. Great football knowledge and a guy who get great respect and feel he could work well with Terry.

He has done the job before and it didn't go that well.

[WHUHibs]

I recall seeing him doing the warm up with the goalies at one point. I sit in the FF so wouldn't be able to see if he went into the west at any point. I don't think not being present for a full warmup has any bearing on how good a scout he is though.



IIRC Petrie wasn't involved in appointing Fenlon and since he quit there wasn't any compensation due either, which is what allowed us to pay compensation to ICT for Butcher, Malpas and Marsella.

We haven't sold a player for any significant value for a few seasons and if it wasn't reinvested in the squad, where did it go? I've just named 3 prospective players that could go on to net us some decent money in Harris, Cummings and Stanton. But do we try and keep those players< taking money out of the wage pot for new players, or do we sell them and hope the replacement is as good or better?

Where is all this money coming from? The bank won't lend it to us, we haven't sold any players and fans aren't turning up.

Are you able to name me a Scottish Premiership side that has a chairman that's been able to consistently appoint good managers?

Motherwell?

[WHUHibs]

The business model and the success of the club is the responsibility of the Board. They should be 100% accountable for underperformance.

It's not a lack of honest hours worked that have led us to this slide since 2007. It is simply that our business model is a busted flush and needs radical change to avoid us sliding down the leagues.

All this rhetoric about hiring / funding managers, squad churns and signings is tiresome sematics. It is merely a smokescreen for our business and organisational failure

:agree:

[500miles]

Motherwell?

Jim Gannon and Mark McGhee are good managers? Craig Brown left a good legacy for McCall, much as he did at Aberdeen for McInness.

Oh, and they don't have a chairman either.

[Gus Fring]

This team............... that team blah blah. Fenlon took this club to two finals Butcher is taking this club to the championship.......is that better for you!

No because I think you're forgetting (or ignoring) that the season Fenlon took over we finished 11th. Comparing Butchers first 6 months to Fenlons 2 years isn't a fair comparison. We're not in 11th just now, we haven't lost the playoff and we haven't been relegated.

When Fenlon realised that he had cocked it up, he left! He knew where the squad he built was going and he didn't stick around to watch it happen.

[Gus Fring]

Jim Gannon and Mark McGhee are good managers? Craig Brown left a good legacy for McCall, much as he did at Aberdeen for McInness.

Oh, and they don't have a chairman either.

They also had to go through an insolvency event to get themselves into the position they are in just now and avoided relegation only because Falkirk didn't have a stadium that met the criteria at the time.

[Scouse Hibee]

No because I think you're forgetting (or ignoring) that the season Fenlon took over we finished 11th. Comparing Butchers first 6 months to Fenlons 2 years isn't a fair comparison. We're not in 11th just now, we haven't lost the playoff and we haven't been relegated.

When Fenlon realised that he had cocked it up, he left! He knew where the squad he built was going and he didn't stick around to watch it happen.

I hope Butcher demonstrates the same integrity.

[Gus Fring]

I hope Butcher demonstrates the same integrity.

You think signing the likes of Rowan Vine and Fraser Mullen then leaving someone else to fix your mess shows integrity?
That's the footballing equivilant of crapping on someones door step, ringing the doorbell, then running away :rolleyes:

[Eyrie]

I hope Butcher demonstrates the same integrity.

I hope we never have to find out.

[WHUHibs]

Jim Gannon and Mark McGhee are good managers? Craig Brown left a good legacy for McCall, much as he did at Aberdeen for McInness.

Oh, and they don't have a chairman either.

So Brown and Mcall,,,,steady,,,is that not what we are looking for? They Also had little money to spend! Chairman,,no but have they not got an active CEO who seems to put all her effort into the club?

[WHUHibs]

They also had to go through an insolvency event to get themselves into the position they are in just now and avoided relegation only because Falkirk didn't have a stadium that met the criteria at the time.

Fair comment but now they are under a steady ship with two good managers, performing on a shoe string budget,,,,

[eggbamyasi]

They also had to go through an insolvency event to get themselves into the position they are in just now and avoided relegation only because Falkirk didn't have a stadium that met the criteria at the time.

Exactly what im talking about . Everyone compares us to this team or that team and dont really think about what those teams have also been through . Just spout hibs are rotten too the core how come were not like etc etc etc .were actually imo in a good place club wise we just need to get it right now with playing squad and to do that we need to stick by butcher and let him turn that side of things his way . Its simple imo we been **** this season because we changed managers . And our new one was left with a totally disjointed under manned squad , butcher made a slight mistake by saying to certain players your not in my plans but you can prove other wise . It back fired a bit and tbh prob showed him which players lack the fight and desire to be in his plans .personally im glad he and mm seem to have this no nonsense attitude to training etc something we badly need . And once he gets a squad with the same mind set and work ethic imo he can make us a seriously strong team .people on here have been bitching about the strictness and I think if you look at the success teams round the world they have that too . How many top class players did alex ferguson boot out when they didnt tow the line ? Even when they were on top form etc . Only my opinion but I think with infrastructure we have and to stick by butcher and give him time we could be successful in the near future and become a big team challanging for honors once again
GGTTH .

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

Rather than some ex player brought in as Director of Football (none of the names mentioned is currently in this role), why not just go for a better CEO such as Leeann Dempster at Motherwell.
Since she arrived at Motherwell they have consistently out performed us (a lot of teams have) and the only time they have changed managers is when they are poached away.
Mostly, these managers are performing at their best at Motherwell and disappointment soon follows when they leave. She managed to make Mark McGhee and Craig Brown look good FFS.
I suspect she creates an environment that allows a manager to perform to the best of their ability.

I also think we should sign Messi and Ronaldo.

Just thought I would write that in case there was some crazy stuff going on.

[greenlex]

I also think we should sign Messi and Ronaldo.

Just thought I would write that in case there was some crazy stuff going on.

That me laugh out loud at half three in the morning. A feat in itself.

[500miles]

So Brown and Mcall,,,,steady,,,is that not what we are looking for? They Also had little money to spend! Chairman,,no but have they not got an active CEO who seems to put all her effort into the club?
I'm questioning how good a manager McCall really is. He seemed to inherit a sound set up.

[jacomo]

Future
We get a new CEO with a bit of spark + business development focus and understands that football is meant to be an entertainment business. We focus our strategy and energy on footballing success while maintaining a prudent approach to financial management. The Manager has a maximum wages to turnover KPI so he has clarity about what he can spend each season.

The majority of the first team come from the youth teams who have come through a structured development programme at East Mains with periods on loan at lower division clubs. The board supports the attraction of additional talent to supplement the home grown talent and is willing to take calculated gambles to secure the right talent.

Simples :greengrin

Seems like part of this plan at least is starting to come together.

[Scouse Hibee]

You think signing the likes of Rowan Vine and Fraser Mullen then leaving someone else to fix your mess shows integrity?
That's the footballing equivilant of crapping on someones door step, ringing the doorbell, then running away :rolleyes:


There weren't many complaints from Hibs fans when the signing of Vine was announced, plenty were in favour of giving Mullen a chance too!

[147lothian]

Im for giving TB time, he has a proven track record at SPL level, and with bringing him here and more importantly SM who is a fantastic scout, is just what is needed when you have to build a new team, Hibs have more lure than ICT, next year will be TB's team, I just hope were still in the SPL and that the board back TB

[Berwickhibby]

Nevin in!..would be a great addition. Great football knowledge and a guy who get great respect and feel he could work well with Terry.

They are cousins so I am sure they could work together..... through marriage

[Kaiser1962]

Fair comment but now they are under a steady ship with two good managers, performing on a shoe string budget,,,,

Seriously? How much is it below ours?