When you've lost the dressing room.....

[brisbanehibs]

I think it's been pretty obvious for weeks and especially watching the St Mirren game that Terry has lost the majority of the dressing room and the team won't find a win anywhere soon. This isn't news to anyone on here.

I think this leaves two choices for the next four games if we are to avoid the drop. 1. Change the manager 2. Change the majority of the dressing room.

I'd go with (2) and by that I mean removing a substantial number of the non triers from the club now and replace with U20s on match day. Let's face it, there's a heap of players leaving in summer so why not get rid of them now, get them off the training ground and avoid them having any impact on the culture of the club for the remaining four games? Can anyone seriously argue the same crop of players will get us out of trouble in the next four games? If not then why keep them at training?

I think a by-product of this stance would be that the culture shift we all want gets a kick start from the manager. If we sack the manager (I appreciate this is unlikely) we give in to the non triers (Collins era approach) - why not make a stand which I think would send a statement of intent and maybe, just maybe, galvanise the fans and remaining players and maybe also get us a couple of points (all that's needed) for the next four games?

TB has made some big mistakes for sure, club leadership/ownership debate well worth having also - but for the next four games I think nothing else matters but getting a few points and for me, removing a big chunk of the senior squad can't harm us any more than the current situation. And it may have longer term benefits.

[truehibernian]

Not a fan of this generic 'lost the dressing room' chat - loads of players don't like their manager, yet they raise their game because they value the club and their teammates.

What is obvious is Hibs signed players over the last 3 years that 'made it' elsewhere before and have no real zest to play well, train hard, and earn a big contract elsewhere.

For all his detractors, there will be one player really hurting tonight inwardly - Kevin Thomson.

Another who will be will be Lewis. I spoke with someone who knows Lewis really well, soon after the cup loss to Hearts (final). Lewis answered his call and his response to 'what are you doing tonight' was words to the effect 'I'm not leaving the house for days I'm that embarrassed'.

Very few players in that top team really have professional pride, it's so unbelievably obvious. Take a look at how few of them do interviews, get themselves out there in the public eye ? Like I posted on the McPake thread - this guy was our captain last year and seemed to love being that - where has he been last few months media wise ? That for me tells you everything about the players and how they value, really value our club.

F*** me even Skacel says more about Hearts that McPake, Craig and Nelson say about Hibs.....does that not tell you something ?

[Golden Bear]

Not a fan of this generic 'lost the dressing room' chat - loads of players don't like their manager, yet they raise their game because they value the club and their teammates.

What is obvious is Hibs signed players over the last 3 years that 'made it' elsewhere before and have no real zest to play well, train hard, and earn a big contract elsewhere.

For all his detractors, there will be one player really hurting tonight inwardly - Kevin Thomson.

Another who will be will be Lewis. I spoke with someone who knows Lewis really well, soon after the cup loss to Hearts (final). Lewis answered his call and his response to 'what are you doing tonight' was words to the effect 'I'm not leaving the house for days I'm that embarrassed'.

Very few players in that top team really have professional pride, it's so unbelievably obvious. Take a look at how few of them do interviews, get themselves out there in the public eye ? Like I posted on the McPake thread - this guy was our captain last year and seemed to love being that - where has he been last few months media wise ? That for me tells you everything about the players and how they value, really value our club.

F*** me even Skacel says more about Hearts that McPake, Craig and Nelson say about Hibs.....does that not tell you something ?

You're on fire tonight - another great post .

[GreenCastle]

Not a fan of this generic 'lost the dressing room' chat - loads of players don't like their manager, yet they raise their game because they value the club and their teammates.

What is obvious is Hibs signed players over the last 3 years that 'made it' elsewhere before and have no real zest to play well, train hard, and earn a big contract elsewhere.

For all his detractors, there will be one player really hurting tonight inwardly - Kevin Thomson.

Another who will be will be Lewis. I spoke with someone who knows Lewis really well, soon after the cup loss to Hearts (final). Lewis answered his call and his response to 'what are you doing tonight' was words to the effect 'I'm not leaving the house for days I'm that embarrassed'.

Very few players in that top team really have professional pride, it's so unbelievably obvious. Take a look at how few of them do interviews, get themselves out there in the public eye ? Like I posted on the McPake thread - this guy was our captain last year and seemed to love being that - where has he been last few months media wise ? That for me tells you everything about the players and how they value, really value our club.

F*** me even Skacel says more about Hearts that McPake, Craig and Nelson say about Hibs.....does that not tell you something ?

:top marksLack of leaders at the club evident - our makeshift captain can't get a game the other is always injured sadly.


regarding the dressing room - since the Caldwell incident at Ross County we have struggled.

[woodyloon]

Something has happened and it looks like it's going to be a struggle to get enough points to stay up. I don't believe the players have given up, IMO I think we don't have enough natural leaders in the dressing room or on the pitch. I also think that the players are being asked to play a system they are struggle to get to grips with. This getting the ball forward,bypassing the midfield as quick as possible is ok if you have front man/men that can control the ball and hold it up.

As for throwing some or all of the Under 20's into the, I think it could damage there progress, it's unfair to do that, they need to be introduced to the first team gradually. In my experience you can have a bunch of average players, but if you get the right manager he can get the best out of them most weeks, (I don't buy into this it's not his players), unfortunately apart from Butcher's first few games, he is struggling to get them playing football without any fear now, and because we don't have anyone strong enough mentally to motivate the players on the pitch it is a total disaster, but it can change quickly.

I still think we have the players to get us to safety, but I'm also worried where our next points will come from. I think butcher needs to go back to a basic formation say a 442, and just let them play, no zonal marking, just defenders defend, midfielders, support the defence and forwards and the front two run the oppositions defence around , to create space for the midfielders and the forwards themself to run into.

[IberianHibernian]

I think it's been pretty obvious for weeks and especially watching the St Mirren game that Terry has lost the majority of the dressing room and the team won't find a win anywhere soon. This isn't news to anyone on here.

I think this leaves two choices for the next four games if we are to avoid the drop. 1. Change the manager 2. Change the majority of the dressing room.

I'd go with (2) and by that I mean removing a substantial number of the non triers from the club now and replace with U20s on match day. Let's face it, there's a heap of players leaving in summer so why not get rid of them now, get them off the training ground and avoid them having any impact on the culture of the club for the remaining four games? Can anyone seriously argue the same crop of players will get us out of trouble in the next four games? If not then why keep them at training?

I think a by-product of this stance would be that the culture shift we all want gets a kick start from the manager. If we sack the manager (I appreciate this is unlikely) we give in to the non triers (Collins era approach) - why not make a stand which I think would send a statement of intent and maybe, just maybe, galvanise the fans and remaining players and maybe also get us a couple of points (all that's needed) for the next four games?

TB has made some big mistakes for sure, club leadership/ownership debate well worth having also - but for the next four games I think nothing else matters but getting a few points and for me, removing a big chunk of the senior squad can't harm us any more than the current situation. And it may have longer term benefits.See where you`re coming from but neither option is likely . Can`t see a managerial change happening since Petrie has placed too much on decisión to appoint TB ( a decisión that was probably made a long time before appointment ) and there is no great tradition in Scotland of emergency managers who specialize in great escapes . If TB is sacked or resigns in next couple of weeks , I`d imagine Under 20 manager and Maybury would be good shouts to end season and maybe beyond . As for players , which players do you mean ? From comments here it`s obvious no 2 fans have the same opinions -some think Harris is overrated/fantastic and better on left/right , others that Craig is great/terrible , McGivern varies from " worst ever Hibs player" to great signing - what`s clear is that a lot of players have seen their reputations plunge under TB - Craig is not the Craig of St Johnstone or even with Fenlon`s Hibs , Robertson was struggling before injury , KT another obvious case , Nelson also ,... suddenly all these players and more are being labelled as " wage thieves " or " useless " when they have all performed well for previous clubs and at times with us . Only option I can see is unity till end of the season then decide whether to continue with same manager or make a fresh start .

[Ronniekirk]

See where you`re coming from but neither option is likely . Can`t see a managerial change happening since Petrie has placed too much on decisión to appoint TB ( a decisión that was probably made a long time before appointment ) and there is no great tradition in Scotland of emergency managers who specialize in great escapes . If TB is sacked or resigns in next couple of weeks , I`d imagine Under 20 manager and Maybury would be good shouts to end season and maybe beyond . As for players , which players do you mean ? From comments here it`s obvious no 2 fans have the same opinions -some think Harris is overrated/fantastic and better on left/right , others that Craig is great/terrible , McGivern varies from " worst ever Hibs player" to great signing - what`s clear is that a lot of players have seen their reputations plunge under TB - Craig is not the Craig of St Johnstone or even with Fenlon`s Hibs , Robertson was struggling before injury , KT another obvious case , Nelson also ,... suddenly all these players and more are being labelled as " wage thieves " or " useless " when they have all performed well for previous clubs and at times with us . Only option I can see is unity till end of the season then decide whether to continue with same manager or make a fresh start .
We won't be changing managers as we probably had to fork out a lot to get the three of them .Even if we did go down thier track record of brining unknowns to Inverness and getting them promoted back into top league says they have pedigree with own players to do that So it's not going to be an option IMO and think Petrie will have same view .

[Phil D. Rolls]

I think it's been pretty obvious for weeks and especially watching the St Mirren game that Terry has lost the majority of the dressing room and the team won't find a win anywhere soon. This isn't news to anyone on here.

I think this leaves two choices for the next four games if we are to avoid the drop. 1. Change the manager 2. Change the majority of the dressing room.

I'd go with (2) and by that I mean removing a substantial number of the non triers from the club now and replace with U20s on match day. Let's face it, there's a heap of players leaving in summer so why not get rid of them now, get them off the training ground and avoid them having any impact on the culture of the club for the remaining four games? Can anyone seriously argue the same crop of players will get us out of trouble in the next four games? If not then why keep them at training?

I think a by-product of this stance would be that the culture shift we all want gets a kick start from the manager. If we sack the manager (I appreciate this is unlikely) we give in to the non triers (Collins era approach) - why not make a stand which I think would send a statement of intent and maybe, just maybe, galvanise the fans and remaining players and maybe also get us a couple of points (all that's needed) for the next four games?

TB has made some big mistakes for sure, club leadership/ownership debate well worth having also - but for the next four games I think nothing else matters but getting a few points and for me, removing a big chunk of the senior squad can't harm us any more than the current situation. And it may have longer term benefits.

:top marksExcellent post. I agree we are going to have to make a radical change now. Whatever he's hoped for isn't going to happen. Time to roll the dice, we've nothing to lose, this team will not get it together.

[#2 Double Tap]

When you've lost the dressing room............get everyone p****d and win it back.

[Badabing]

I'm not sure what people mean by the phrase "lost the dressing room". Personally I loath my manager and have no respect for him. That said I still give my all at work because a) it helps me retain what little self respect I have b) my job pays the bills c) I worry that failing in my current job will make it difficult to find future employment d) I have colleagues and customers who rely on me.

I know that footballers are a breed apart but surely they don't "chuck it" for some or all of the reasons quoted. I think Butcher and Malpas are struggling because they can't present a cohesive plan to their employees. Part of this problem is that said employees are limited in what they can deliver however it's up to a manager to optimise their resources and present a successful plan to their team. Ours ain't doing that and in that respect they've "lost"the dressing room.

When the ICT contingent arrived I expected them to evaluate their resources and plan accordingly, unfortunately there has been no sign of that. I personally was happy to see Fenlon go thinking that we couldn't get much worse. I now think that at least Fenlon understood what he was dealing with better than our current incumbents who are worryingly running out of time to figure it out.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm not sure what people mean by the phrase "lost the dressing room". Personally I loath my manager and have no respect for him. That said I still give my all at work because a) it helps me retain what little self respect I have b) my job pays the bills c) I worry that failing in my current job will make it difficult to find future employment d) I have colleagues and customers who rely on me.

I know that footballers are a breed apart but surely they don't "chuck it" for some or all of the reasons quoted. I think Butcher and Malpas are struggling because they can't present a cohesive plan to their employees. Part of this problem is that said employees are limited in what they can deliver however it's up to a manager to optimise their resources and present a successful plan to their team. Ours ain't doing that and in that respect they've "lost"the dressing room.

When the ICT contingent arrived I expected them to evaluate their resources and plan accordingly, unfortunately there has been no sign of that. I personally was happy to see Fenlon go thinking that we couldn't get much worse. I now think that at least Fenlon understood what he was dealing with better than our current incumbents who are worryingly running out of time to figure it out.

They are young, inexperienced people. When I was their age I took things for granted. I neither knew the need to work hard, nor took responsibility.

[Badabing]

They are young, inexperienced people. When I was their age I took things for granted. I neither knew the need to work hard, nor took responsibility.

Fair enough, but good managers bring people along by getting them to buy in to a plan. I can't see a plan at the mo. I've got that sinking feeling from previous seasons that the only way we'll get out of this mess is by a stroke or 2 of luck. It would be useful if this came next Sunday

[Phil D. Rolls]

Fair enough, but good managers bring people along by getting them to buy in to a plan. I can't see a plan at the mo. I've got that sinking feeling from previous seasons that the only way we'll get out of this mess is by a stroke or 2 of luck. It would be useful if this came next Sunday

Got to question what Tel has been trying to do.

[Pat s 4]

Never posted before but feel the need to now. Been a Hibs supporter for 51 years and never seen a team like it before. There is nothing.Absolutely gutted. What is Butcher doing. If someone tells you that you are crap and you are out of a job.... what

do you have to play for. Tactics need to change and encouragement needed. Give us some hope.

[Badabing]

Got to question what Tel has been trying to do.

Quite honestly thus far your guess is as good as mine. Survive this season and hopefully flourish next.

[brisbanehibs]

See where you`re coming from but neither option is likely . Can`t see a managerial change happening since Petrie has placed too much on decisión to appoint TB ( a decisión that was probably made a long time before appointment ) and there is no great tradition in Scotland of emergency managers who specialize in great escapes . If TB is sacked or resigns in next couple of weeks , I`d imagine Under 20 manager and Maybury would be good shouts to end season and maybe beyond . As for players , which players do you mean ? From comments here it`s obvious no 2 fans have the same opinions -some think Harris is overrated/fantastic and better on left/right , others that Craig is great/terrible , McGivern varies from " worst ever Hibs player" to great signing - what`s clear is that a lot of players have seen their reputations plunge under TB - Craig is not the Craig of St Johnstone or even with Fenlon`s Hibs , Robertson was struggling before injury , KT another obvious case , Nelson also ,... suddenly all these players and more are being labelled as " wage thieves " or " useless " when they have all performed well for previous clubs and at times with us . Only option I can see is unity till end of the season then decide whether to continue with same manager or make a fresh start .

I agree it's unlikely scenario but I honestly question whether there is anything to lose from taking 3-4 senior players out of the club now and making a statement and replacing with fresh blood for next four games? I'd also not change the team for those four games having made that statement (barring injury/suspensions). I can't get to the games and make do with Hibs TV streams so think others who see us live would have more valid claims on who should be replaced - the player ratings thread from today a good start. Butcher confirms (see Scotsman post match interview) that he's not getting the effort he needs from the team so why not take four of the biggest culprits and move them on right now.....he has tried almost everyone in the senior squad so there is no silver bullet there and I can't see it changing. Maybe the only other option is a change in tactics....either way something has to radically change for next four games - surely that can't be argued? If we survive then I hope (and am sure) Terry has learned a lot from this.......

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Butcher should have went ahead with his threat a few weeks ago to stick the youngsters in. I have no doubt they would have found a result by now. Sadly too late now though.

[stevejordan]

I think it's been pretty obvious for weeks and especially watching the St Mirren game that Terry has lost the majority of the dressing room and the team won't find a win anywhere soon. This isn't news to anyone on here.

I think this leaves two choices for the next four games if we are to avoid the drop. 1. Change the manager 2. Change the majority of the dressing room.

I'd go with (2) and by that I mean removing a substantial number of the non triers from the club now and replace with U20s on match day. Let's face it, there's a heap of players leaving in summer so why not get rid of them now, get them off the training ground and avoid them having any impact on the culture of the club for the remaining four games? Can anyone seriously argue the same crop of players will get us out of trouble in the next four games? If not then why keep them at training?

I think a by-product of this stance would be that the culture shift we all want gets a kick start from the manager. If we sack the manager (I appreciate this is unlikely) we give in to the non triers (Collins era approach) - why not make a stand which I think would send a statement of intent and maybe, just maybe, galvanise the fans and remaining players and maybe also get us a couple of points (all that's needed) for the next four games?

TB has made some big mistakes for sure, club leadership/ownership debate well worth having also - but for the next four games I think nothing else matters but getting a few points and for me, removing a big chunk of the senior squad can't harm us any more than the current situation. And it may have longer term benefits.

Option 1. is a non starter to late in the day now for this plus it would cost a fortune to empty him and who to replace him Malpas is even more disliked than Terry is so need to pay up both there contracts Petrie wont do that.

Option 2. Does make sense but too risky with all the pressure on right now.

We need a credible Option 3. sadly i dont know what this option is to fix this mess.

[Waxy]

If you lose the dressing room at least you know, it'll be somewhere in the main stand.

[snooky]

Butcher should have went ahead with his threat a few weeks ago to stick the youngsters in. I have no doubt they would have found a result by now. Sadly too late now though.

This :agree: