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View Full Version : If I was Butcher I would walk...



Nailrod
19-04-2014, 04:25 PM
...regardless of what happens in the next four games.

I'd say to myself "This poisoned chalice has destroyed the value of everything I achieved at ICT. I need to get out while I've still got the shreds of a career left to resurrect."

No idea whether that would leave our shambles of a club better or worse off, frankly.

Elephant Stone
19-04-2014, 04:28 PM
What poisoned chalice? He inherited a good squad in the process of improving and has decimated absolutely everything that was useful in it. That's nobody's fault but his own.

erskine-hibby
19-04-2014, 04:30 PM
What poisoned chalice? He inherited a good squad in the process of improving and has decimated absolutely everything that was useful in it. That's nobody's fault but his own.

No he didn't, the squad was/is pish.

Elephant Stone
19-04-2014, 04:32 PM
No he didn't, the squad was/is pish.

Why was it 5th in the league? Why did it have the best defence in the league outside of Celtic? A lucky three months?

Hibercelona
19-04-2014, 04:33 PM
The problems clearly go beyond Butcher. Even if Butcher leaves, we still have players playing under the same system as before, being trained by the same staff and ultimately not being able to carry out their job.

It's no coincidence that the only decent players we've had in the last several years have all been natural talents, not players that have picked things up on the training field.

There's bigger problems than Butcher and Malpas and taking them out of the equation won't change anything at the moment.

ScottB
19-04-2014, 04:33 PM
Why was it 5th in the league? Why did it have the best defence in the league outside of Celtic? A lucky three months?

Yup, we've went from a team that was tight at the back but not scoring many, to a team leaking goals and scoring none.

And yes, this will be changing Terry's reputation, it's making ICT look like a fluke and suggesting all his previous failures are his standard frankly.

SunshineOnLeith
19-04-2014, 04:34 PM
You'd walk away from a long term contract with a six-figure salary knowing that the only jobs you'd be able to get on the other side would pay much less?

SouthamptonHibs
19-04-2014, 04:35 PM
Our squad is utter garbage Pat Fenlon must take the blame. I do think butcher has a lot to answer for playing 4-5-1 all the time. We need to create chances to win games. Wtf do they do all day at east mains?

Hibercelona
19-04-2014, 04:36 PM
You'd walk away from a long term contract with a six-figure salary knowing that the only jobs you'd be able to get on the other side would pay much less?

Thats exactly why I don't believe that Fenlon walked. He wasn't exactly minted before he came here, so I don't believe for a moment that he handed in his resignation form.

Sean1875
19-04-2014, 04:36 PM
Coming into an average-performing team and turning them into a complete shambles before walking away, and you think he would still be able to retain some sort of good reputation and 'shreds of a career' after that?

seanshow
19-04-2014, 04:38 PM
I don't blame the management, the players had a run of 1 loss in 9 games? when butcher came in.

Players have chucked it as far as I am concerned.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
19-04-2014, 04:38 PM
Thats exactly why I don't believe that Fenlon walked. He wasn't exactly minted before he came here, so I don't believe for a moment that he handed in his resignation form.

So I take it you think he was sacked?

IberianHibernian
19-04-2014, 04:39 PM
He made a point of boasting about his ability to attract good new players so would imagine he`s got a few signings lined up IF we stay up and IF he continues as manager . Even if we don`t go down and he makes a few good signings fans will remember the current run of results unless we make a good start and keep it up .

erskine-hibby
19-04-2014, 04:39 PM
Why was it 5th in the league? Why did it have the best defence in the league outside of Celtic? A lucky three months?
It was dire and most knew it and were calling for a change.
This is probably the most disjointed, unbalanced squad we have had in years, it needs torn apart and put back together again. THAT is the legacy Fenlon left us with. Though I do believe he should have gone at the end of last season, it was a huge mistake by Petrie not to get rid then.

hibbydog
19-04-2014, 04:42 PM
No he didn't, the squad was/is pish.

I disagree.

I think Fenlon did a decent enough job from inheriting a total mess he turned us into a team of fighters. Ok we didn't score many and it was dire to watch, but at least he had a consistent theme and the players knew their system. In the end he wasn't up to moving hibs onto the next level and did the right thing by leaving.

All in all I think Fenlon left the place in a better state than he found it, so it was a reasonably decent place for butcher to start from.

Butcher has made the place a whole lot worse.

Austinho
19-04-2014, 04:42 PM
A proven SPL manager. Fans moan at the board for not showing ambition – yet were creaming themselves at the prospect of him being in charge.

He's not even had a summer to buy his own players – some of the knee jerk reactions are unbelievable.

What do people expect, that he'd come in and work miracles straight away? We've tried that countless times with countless managers over the last few years and it has never worked. Time people woke up and realised the problem lies far beyond the manager(s).

Hibercelona
19-04-2014, 04:42 PM
So I take it you think he was sacked?

I believe he was paid to leave. But both parties decided to keep a lid on it.

It wouldn't have made sense for him to walk. He was seeing money that he never came close to seeing in his playing career.

Elephant Stone
19-04-2014, 04:43 PM
It was dire and most knew it and were calling for a change.
This is probably the most disjointed, unbalanced squad we have had in years, it needs torn apart and put back together again. THAT is the legacy Fenlon left us with. Though I do believe he should have gone at the end of last season, it was a huge mistake by Petrie not to get rid then.

Well the facts are weighed heavily against that and I don't think the opinion of the people calling for change should weigh against those facts, considering the colossal **** up that the change caused.

Sean1875
19-04-2014, 04:44 PM
I don't blame the management, the players had a run of 1 loss in 9 games? when butcher came in.

Players have chucked it as far as I am concerned.

I dont understand that statement. Surely if the players had a run of 1 loss in 9 games before TB and he's came in and theyve done a hell of a lot worse, it must be the managers fault for poor motivation, organisation etc.

Hibercelona
19-04-2014, 04:44 PM
He's not even had a summer to buy his own players – some of the knee jerk reactions are unbelievable.

I can't believe some posters are still throwing about that line.

SunshineOnLeith
19-04-2014, 04:45 PM
Thats exactly why I don't believe that Fenlon walked. He wasn't exactly minted before he came here, so I don't believe for a moment that he handed in his resignation form.

I suspect the truth lies in the middle somewhere. I'm willing to believe Fenlon resigned, but not that he walked away for free. I imagine he cost us a lot less in compo than he would have had he hung on though, so I wouldn't hold it against him.

SaulGoodman
19-04-2014, 04:45 PM
A proven SPL manager. Fans moan at the board for not showing ambition – yet were creaming themselves at the prospect of him being in charge.

He's not even had a summer to buy his own players – some of the knee jerk reactions are unbelievable.

What do people expect, that he'd come in and work miracles straight away? We've tried that countless times with countless managers over the last few years and it has never worked. Time people woke up and realised the problem lies far beyond the manager(s).

I've been sticking up for Butcher, but whether your players or not you should be able to:
-Set them up not to lose easy goals
-Make decent, sensible subs
-Show a bit ambition when a player gets sent off
-Play your best 11

Steve-O
19-04-2014, 04:46 PM
Butcher is the new Blobby. Fact.

Hibercelona
19-04-2014, 04:48 PM
I suspect the truth lies in the middle somewhere. I'm willing to believe Fenlon resigned, but not that he walked away for free. I imagine he cost us a lot less in compo than he would have had he hung on though, so I wouldn't hold it against him.

Not holding it against him at all. If I had the chance to see money that i've never came close to seeing before, i'd sure as hell stick around as long as possible, even if I was doing a poor job.

erskine-hibby
19-04-2014, 04:48 PM
Well the facts are weighed heavily against that and I don't think the opinion of the people calling for change should weigh against those facts, considering the colossal **** up that the change caused.

We were well on the way to a cock up with the squad Fenlon put together. Can you honestly say that his choice of players have been good? After all they make up the bulk of our team now, footballers they are not.
It was an accident waiting to happen, only a matter of time.

SouthamptonHibs
19-04-2014, 04:49 PM
Butcher could be the new Duffy. Least blobby had some decent youth coming through.
Fenlon Calderwood Duffy all worse than blobby IMO butcher is heading into the above category if things don't change

Golden Bear
19-04-2014, 04:49 PM
Fenlon never knew what his best team was and neither does Butcher. In short, the make up of the actual team is incidental because the entire squad is riddled with mediocrity.

erskine-hibby
19-04-2014, 04:51 PM
Fenlon never knew what his best team was and neither does Butcher. In short, the make up of the actual team is incidental because the entire squad is riddled with mediocrity.

Exactly! crap squad makes it difficult to get a half decent team out on the park.

Elephant Stone
19-04-2014, 04:53 PM
We were well on the way to a cock up with the squad Fenlon put together. Can you honestly say that his choice of players have been good? After all they make up the bulk of our team now, footballers they are not.
It was an accident waiting to happen, only a matter of time.

We were on our way to competing in the top six and with a great chance of another trip to Hampden. As for his choice of players, yes I think we've got a strong squad, it was certainly getting good results while he was here and I don't doubt it would have improved further with consistency and confidence.

snooky
19-04-2014, 04:56 PM
A proven SPL manager. Fans moan at the board for not showing ambition – yet were creaming themselves at the prospect of him being in charge.

He's not even had a summer to buy his own players – some of the knee jerk reactions are unbelievable.

What do people expect, that he'd come in and work miracles straight away? We've tried that countless times with countless managers over the last few years and it has never worked. Time people woke up and realised the problem lies far beyond the manager(s).

To be fair nobody expected miracles but I think we expected, at the very least, a steadying of the ship.
Instead we appear to have Edward Smith in charge.

Jim44
19-04-2014, 04:57 PM
I'd be furious if Butcher was allowed to walk now. I want him dragged down with us. It's too late for a miracle worker to take his place.

erskine-hibby
19-04-2014, 04:57 PM
We were on our way to competing in the top six and with a great chance of another trip to Hampden. As for his choice of players, yes I think we've got a strong squad, it was certainly getting good results while he was here and I don't doubt it would have improved further with consistency and confidence.

So we should keep the same squad but get a new manager then???
Drivel! The guys we have are clearly not good enough and those are the ones Fenlon brought in.
The term you can't polish a turd springs to mind.

scuttle
19-04-2014, 04:57 PM
If I was Butcher I would walk...

500 miles

SunshineOnLeith
19-04-2014, 04:58 PM
If Fenlon could have won derbies (something no Hibs manager has done with regularity since McLeish) he'd probably still be our manager, we'd probably be 6th or 7th in the league, and the discontent about him would just be the odd grumble.

Alfred E Newman
19-04-2014, 05:00 PM
A proven SPL manager. Fans moan at the board for not showing ambition – yet were creaming themselves at the prospect of him being in charge.

He's not even had a summer to buy his own players – some of the knee jerk reactions are unbelievable.

What do people expect, that he'd come in and work miracles straight away? We've tried that countless times with countless managers over the last few years and it has never worked. Time people woke up and realised the problem lies far beyond the manager(s).

I don't think anyone was expecting miracles but no one was expecting this and if his January signings are anything to go by I don't hold any great expectations for the summer window.
As far as I'm concerned anything other than a win next week and he should go.

coco22
19-04-2014, 05:02 PM
Team and formation that lacks a spine, spineless players, spineless club. Thought that is what butcher was all about (and was going to bring) but seems he's fitted right in with the usual crap that we are used to being served up. Bored with it. Walk if he wants.....or stay, not bothered.

leggeto
19-04-2014, 05:03 PM
No way will he walk,its not his team and if it was he would have to think about it,but can't see any manager walking so early in the contract, and we couldn't afford to sack them either

truehibernian
19-04-2014, 05:04 PM
If I were Butcher I'd be looking at getting a side together that was the future - some players as he says are not hurting and clearly need to be told don't come to the training centre again. Cast out in the cold, wilderness of Bosman football wasters.

Again it's a mentality thing. We have a U20 side who are brimming with confidence, scoring plenty, and play for James.

I'd ask James to step up to the dug out and stand aside Terry, put in Black, Baptie, Horribine and Smith. Also play Cummings the next 4 games, starting place guaranteed. Watmore would start every game too.

Nelson is rank rotten, I'd consider maybe Maybury at centre half with Jordon. Only because of experience and he played there this year for the 20's and his distribution is way way better than Nelson.

Fan mentality is crucial too - I genuinely think we'd be right behind younger players and not the wasters that have gone on this unenviabnle run. Quite often the reason given by people is 'why throw in youngsters into a side like this' - well why not ? These young players goal in life is to make it as a player, take that chance once it's there, and retain their place and progress - or why bother being a pro footballer ?

Terry - if it were me and you are doubting whether some are hurting - show them you care about the club and drop the ones you feel are not bothered. Cast them aside. Simple as that. And get James into that dug out please - he absolutely hurts in defeat and loves winning. That is what we need on the sidelines, and it offers our youngsters a voice they listen to and respect.

big gogs
19-04-2014, 05:05 PM
I was happy with his appointment,but matters now are beyond his control,we now rely more on other results than our own .at this moment in time ,should we survive and butcher stays I dread to think of of the replacements next season,let's face it his loan signings have been awful.i know Petrie and the board are responsible,but how many times must the fans get dumped on .

patch1875
19-04-2014, 05:05 PM
He's bought a big hoose in North Berwick he won't be in any rush to leave.

loanheadhibby
19-04-2014, 05:08 PM
Butcher could be the new Duffy. Least blobby had some decent youth coming through.
Fenlon Calderwood Duffy all worse than blobby IMO butcher is heading into the above category if things don't change

Def the new duff jim. Blobby steadied the ship and if was still our manager we'd have been 6th every season without fail (watching rank football).

I'm sure in duff jims 1st season we ended in the play offs. The next season we started like a house on fire and ended up getting relegated.

the moral of the story is get shot of butcher in the summer. Can't trust him for another season.

Golden Bear
19-04-2014, 05:08 PM
If I were Butcher I'd be looking at getting a side together that was the future - some players as he says are not hurting and clearly need to be told don't come to the training centre again. Cast out in the cold, wilderness of Bosman football wasters.

Again it's a mentality thing. We have a U20 side who are brimming with confidence, scoring plenty, and play for James.

I'd ask James to step up to the dug out and stand aside Terry, put in Black, Baptie, Horribine and Smith. Also play Cummings the next 4 games, starting place guaranteed. Watmore would start every game too.

Nelson is rank rotten, I'd consider maybe Maybury at centre half with Jordon. Only because of experience and he played there this year for the 20's and his distribution is way way better than Nelson.

Fan mentality is crucial too - I genuinely think we'd be right behind younger players and not the wasters that have gone on this unenviabnle run. Quite often the reason given by people is 'why throw in youngsters into a side like this' - well why not ? These young players goal in life is to make it as a player, take that chance once it's there, and retain their place and progress - or why bother being a pro footballer ?

Terry - if it were me and you are doubting whether some are hurting - show them you care about the club and drop the ones you feel are not bothered. Cast them aside. Simple as that. And get James into that dug out please - he absolutely hurts in defeat and loves winning. That is what we need on the sidelines, and it offers our youngsters a voice they listen to and respect.

This post has absolutely no place on Hibs Net as it's far, far too sensible.

Hibercelona
19-04-2014, 05:09 PM
No way will he walk,its not his team and if it was he would have to think about it,but can't see any manager walking so early in the contract, and we couldn't afford to sack them either

It is his team though. He's the head man, the top dog, the big cheese, the head honcho.... etc

If it's not his team, then who on earth are in charge of this team?

jeffers
19-04-2014, 05:09 PM
I believe he was paid to leave. But both parties decided to keep a lid on it.

It wouldn't have made sense for him to walk. He was seeing money that he never came close to seeing in his playing career.

My mate is friends with PF. He resigned. He considered resigning after the Malmo game. He tried to resign after the Aberdeen game, but Petrie talked him out of it telling him he couldn't quit just before we played Hearts.

People can say what they want about PF as a manager but he is a decent guy, so yes he did walk.

Thecat23
19-04-2014, 05:10 PM
What poisoned chalice? He inherited a good squad in the process of improving and has decimated absolutely everything that was useful in it. That's nobody's fault but his own.

It's far from a good squad. They are shocking and were the same under Fenlon. Yes he won more with them but by god they are shocking.

Butcher needs a serious look at himself though.

leggeto
19-04-2014, 05:14 PM
It is his team though. He's the head man, the top dog, the big cheese, the head honcho.... etc

If it's not his team, then who on earth are in charge of this team?

He needs to bring in his own players,the current crop are just not going to make it under his style of play

Cropley10
19-04-2014, 05:21 PM
We were on our way to competing in the top six and with a great chance of another trip to Hampden. As for his choice of players, yes I think we've got a strong squad, it was certainly getting good results while he was here and I don't doubt it would have improved further with consistency and confidence.

Then you must have a very very poor memory.

We've got a strong squad. Do we? Aye?

loanheadhibby
19-04-2014, 05:21 PM
He needs to bring in his own players,the current crop are just not going to make it under his style of play

players like Haynes, boateng and watmore?

Hibercelona
19-04-2014, 05:21 PM
My mate is friends with PF. He resigned. He considered resigning after the Malmo game. He tried to resign after the Aberdeen game, but Petrie talked him out of it telling him he couldn't quit just before we played Hearts.

People can say what they want about PF as a manager but he is a decent guy, so yes he did walk.

Fair enough if you know that to be true. It just doesn't seem to make much sense though as he would undoubtedly have been forced out not long after


He needs to bring in his own players,the current crop are just not going to make it under his style of play

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what his style of play is. I know these players aren't very good, but they weren't nearly quite as poor under Fenlon, despite a few shockers.

Any manager worth his salt will alter his tactics to best suit the strengths of the players that he has to work with, insteading of persistng with one type of system and trying to force these type of players to work with it.

leggeto
19-04-2014, 05:26 PM
Fair enough if you know that to be true. It just doesn't seem to make much sense though as he would undoubtedly have been forced out not long after



I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what his style of play is. I know these players aren't very good, but they weren't nearly quite as poor under Fenlon, despite a few shockers.

Any manager worth his salt will alter his tactics to best suit the strengths of the players that he has to work with, insteading of persistng with one type of system and trying to force these type of players to work with it.

Agree,butcher likes to get lots of crosses in and bomb down the wings but with fenlons play he liked the slow build up hence the amount of sitting midfielder we have,he should have strengthened the defence in January, especially with the player he used to be

Since90+2
19-04-2014, 05:33 PM
If I were Butcher I'd be looking at getting a side together that was the future - some players as he says are not hurting and clearly need to be told don't come to the training centre again. Cast out in the cold, wilderness of Bosman football wasters.

Again it's a mentality thing. We have a U20 side who are brimming with confidence, scoring plenty, and play for James.

I'd ask James to step up to the dug out and stand aside Terry, put in Black, Baptie, Horribine and Smith. Also play Cummings the next 4 games, starting place guaranteed. Watmore would start every game too.

Nelson is rank rotten, I'd consider maybe Maybury at centre half with Jordon. Only because of experience and he played there this year for the 20's and his distribution is way way better than Nelson.

Fan mentality is crucial too - I genuinely think we'd be right behind younger players and not the wasters that have gone on this unenviabnle run. Quite often the reason given by people is 'why throw in youngsters into a side like this' - well why not ? These young players goal in life is to make it as a player, take that chance once it's there, and retain their place and progress - or why bother being a pro footballer ?

Terry - if it were me and you are doubting whether some are hurting - show them you care about the club and drop the ones you feel are not bothered. Cast them aside. Simple as that. And get James into that dug out please - he absolutely hurts in defeat and loves winning. That is what we need on the sidelines, and it offers our youngsters a voice they listen to and respect.

Jesus. Giving me nightmares just reading that.

Phil D. Rolls
19-04-2014, 05:43 PM
What poisoned chalice? He inherited a good squad in the process of improving and has decimated absolutely everything that was useful in it. That's nobody's fault but his own.

He has ****ed up big style. As have the fans that screamed for Fenlons head. Sorry folks, but what has happened since shows that fan power isn't always a great thing.

So, if you we're part of the crowd that hounded out Fenlon, what do you have to say now. No, let me guess, "that Rod Petrie did it and ran away".

sean
19-04-2014, 05:44 PM
Iv said it countless times, terry butcher is a myth. Did great at ICT, rubbish everywhere else.

On paper that hibs squad is a 6th place, hard working outfit.
Quality in some areas, not in others.

Stats don't lie just like league tables!

Pat had us on a decent run and defensively sound for the first time in years and that's a fact. The football was garbage but we were hard to beat and were nicking wins.

Butcher came in and the initial reaction was positive. What changed ? What was said ? No one knows for sure but any manager worth his job should try motivate, inspire and set his team up with a certain strategy TB has simply not done any of the above.

He has clearly lost the dressing room and I bet it's not down to the "lazy *******s" or "useless *****" because some of those players are not playing for the manager.

Why ?

I called it a month back, hibs are in free fall.

Velma Dinkley
19-04-2014, 05:50 PM
So many terrible hibs 'fans' lol the one constant is Petrie, aye? Naw, it's you.

J-C
19-04-2014, 05:54 PM
This has all happened ever since Butcher decided to tell the world who was wanted and who was going to show the door. Rumours of training ground bust ups, unhappy players, bullying by Malpas after games, the whole squad have gave in all because Butcher has lost the dressing room big style.

sean
19-04-2014, 05:56 PM
This has all happened ever since Butcher decided to tell the world who was wanted and who was going to show the door. Rumours of training ground bust ups, unhappy players, bullying by Malpas after games, the whole squad have gave in all because Butcher has lost the dressing room big style.

Correct your right with 100% of what you've said.

Never tell players there out the door before your mathematically safe.. Something that has come to bite him in the arse.

Hibercelona
19-04-2014, 05:58 PM
He has ****ed up big style. As have the fans that screamed for Fenlons head. Sorry folks, but what has happened since shows that fan power isn't always a great thing.

So, if you we're part of the crowd that hounded out Fenlon, what do you have to say now. No, let me guess, "that Rod Petrie did it and ran away".

Fenlon was mince and fans rightfully wanted him out. The fact that he was replaced by an even bigger mincer isn't the fault of the fans whatsoever.

So yeah, Rod Petrie did it and ran away.

Craig_in_Prague
19-04-2014, 05:59 PM
Dont know who started the thread about Ian Murray coming in with big Eck, he got ripped for it, but who would actually be unhappy with that.

Thecat23
19-04-2014, 06:05 PM
He has ****ed up big style. As have the fans that screamed for Fenlons head. Sorry folks, but what has happened since shows that fan power isn't always a great thing.

So, if you we're part of the crowd that hounded out Fenlon, what do you have to say now. No, let me guess, "that Rod Petrie did it and ran away".

So it's our fault? Fenlon WASNT good enough, he said himself he couldn't take Hibs any further. I blame the players he signed as much as I do Butcher.

So trying to be smug because you think Fenlon should have stayed is daft. If truth be told Fenlon should have been long gone way before he was let go and we should have gone for McInnes.

If we survive and TB gets his players in I think we'll be fine. I won't come on here being a smart arse though.

Oh as for Petrie he's another Buffoon who should leave and should have gone lone ago. I'm still delighted we got shot of PF this team he's left ****ing Ferguson would struggle to motivate.

PapillonVert
19-04-2014, 06:17 PM
...regardless of what happens in the next four games.

I'd say to myself "This poisoned chalice has destroyed the value of everything I achieved at ICT. I need to get out while I've still got the shreds of a career left to resurrect."

No idea whether that would leave our shambles of a club better or worse off, frankly.

I agree.

I have had enough. I have paid my ST year after year even though I have not been able to attend most games. I have renewed for next year although I won't be able to attend all games and so most of it is a charitable donation.

But I am not going to keep on paying. The club is a shambles. Something is very far wrong and needs to be sorted out.

matty_f
19-04-2014, 06:24 PM
If I were Butcher I'd be looking at getting a side together that was the future - some players as he says are not hurting and clearly need to be told don't come to the training centre again. Cast out in the cold, wilderness of Bosman football wasters.

Again it's a mentality thing. We have a U20 side who are brimming with confidence, scoring plenty, and play for James.

I'd ask James to step up to the dug out and stand aside Terry, put in Black, Baptie, Horribine and Smith. Also play Cummings the next 4 games, starting place guaranteed. Watmore would start every game too.

Nelson is rank rotten, I'd consider maybe Maybury at centre half with Jordon. Only because of experience and he played there this year for the 20's and his distribution is way way better than Nelson.

Fan mentality is crucial too - I genuinely think we'd be right behind younger players and not the wasters that have gone on this unenviabnle run. Quite often the reason given by people is 'why throw in youngsters into a side like this' - well why not ? These young players goal in life is to make it as a player, take that chance once it's there, and retain their place and progress - or why bother being a pro footballer ?

Terry - if it were me and you are doubting whether some are hurting - show them you care about the club and drop the ones you feel are not bothered. Cast them aside. Simple as that. And get James into that dug out please - he absolutely hurts in defeat and loves winning. That is what we need on the sidelines, and it offers our youngsters a voice they listen to and respect.

Good post. :agree:

I don't think Butcher should walk. The squad is neither up to it, nor up for it IMHO. We have no real leaders on the park at the moment, nobody carrying the team through games. Our back four today gives me nightmares, but it was almost the only back four Butcher could have played. Maybury wanted to retire this season but we've needed to throw him in, Nelson has been dreadful and we're missing Hanlon badly. Stevenson puts in a shift at left-back but he's a make-shift option there at best.

The midfield lacks balance, we're relying on people who aren't match fit (KT, OTJ) and kids right now.

Up front we have nobody. Heff's injured, Collins has all the goalscoring prowess of Christian Nade, and then there's Cummings - prolific at youth level but not doing it at senior level yet.

We have a very, very poor squad. With everyone fit and available, we are at least competitive with the rest of the league and better than some of it. Take out players like Robertson, Heffernan, Hanlon, McGivern (even though he's been pish, it means Stevenson can play midfield) and it shows a squad badly lacking in genuine quality and character.

I have no idea of our best 11, or where our strengths lie, and I don't think anyone on here could put a starting 11 together from the players that are available to Butcher that we'd all look at and be confident of getting a result against anyone.

This squad were on the slide when Fenlon left, we were going full games without an attempt on target. Fair enough we weren't shipping goals like we are now, but we weren't an attacking force at all either. Fenlon left because of that, Butcher can't work miracles with this squad, he needs to get players in before we see any improvement.

Saturdays Hero
19-04-2014, 06:31 PM
What poisoned chalice? He inherited a good squad in the process of improving and has decimated absolutely everything that was useful in it. That's nobody's fault but his own.

A good squad ✋😂

blackpoolhibs
19-04-2014, 06:32 PM
Good post. :agree:

I don't think Butcher should walk. The squad is neither up to it, nor up for it IMHO. We have no real leaders on the park at the moment, nobody carrying the team through games. Our back four today gives me nightmares, but it was almost the only back four Butcher could have played. Maybury wanted to retire this season but we've needed to throw him in, Nelson has been dreadful and we're missing Hanlon badly. Stevenson puts in a shift at left-back but he's a make-shift option there at best.

The midfield lacks balance, we're relying on people who aren't match fit (KT, OTJ) and kids right now.

Up front we have nobody. Heff's injured, Collins has all the goalscoring prowess of Christian Nade, and then there's Cummings - prolific at youth level but not doing it at senior level yet.

We have a very, very poor squad. With everyone fit and available, we are at least competitive with the rest of the league and better than some of it. Take out players like Robertson, Heffernan, Hanlon, McGivern (even though he's been pish, it means Stevenson can play midfield) and it shows a squad badly lacking in genuine quality and character.

I have no idea of our best 11, or where our strengths lie, and I don't think anyone on here could put a starting 11 together from the players that are available to Butcher that we'd all look at and be confident of getting a result against anyone.

This squad were on the slide when Fenlon left, we were going full games without an attempt on target. Fair enough we weren't shipping goals like we are now, but we weren't an attacking force at all either. Fenlon left because of that, Butcher can't work miracles with this squad, he needs to get players in before we see any improvement.

Why play both of them today, neither have played much football recently but butcher decides to play both. The guy is working his ticket in my opinion, and does not give a **** about us. GTF Butcher and take that clown who sits next to you too.

Centre Hawf
19-04-2014, 06:48 PM
Can't believe folk are saying this is Fenlons fault, we would never have been in this position if he stayed. We would have made top 6 with him I reckon.

Butcher is tactically inept and his shown the worst man management skills for a while. Get this fud launched as quickly as possible.

truehibernian
19-04-2014, 06:58 PM
Can't believe folk are saying this is Fenlons fault, we would never have been in this position if he stayed. We would have made top 6 with him I reckon.

Butcher is tactically inept and his shown the worst man management skills for a while. Get this fud launched as quickly as possible.

For me it's a combination of Rod and Pat :agree: that said, Terry Butcher's recent management has left me stunned.

But we are where we are because of a chronic inability to identify good players by Pat, added to which Rod's absolute stubbornness to spend top dollar on certain targets who were willing - and the usual last minute scramble coupled with statements about 'being together'.

I honestly think TB thought a couple of wins would come and they could plan - I now think he has been drawn into the panic and it's showing in his interviews.

I posted last week, where has James 'our leader' McPake been throughout this ? Why has he not come forward with a few interviews, letting the fans know where the players stand ? Yes he is rehabilitating but it's far far far from his 'this club won't be pushovers' stand he took last year.......that tells me where the players are. Totally and utterly disinterested some of them and being quite cunning about it too.

Really sad days when you have experienced players hiding (not just McPake).

JimBHibees
19-04-2014, 07:16 PM
Why play both of them today, neither have played much football recently but butcher decides to play both. The guy is working his ticket in my opinion, and does not give a **** about us. GTF Butcher and take that clown who sits next to you too.

Disagree and well harsh. You were gagging for Thomson to be played and he did. His selections have been inconsistent that is for sure. I would have Cummings play from now on and bring Taiwo and Robertson back in with Watmore right and Craig wide left.

truehibernian
19-04-2014, 07:25 PM
Disagree and well harsh. You were gagging for Thomson to be played and he did. His selections have been inconsistent that is for sure. I would have Cummings play from now on and bring Taiwo and Robertson back in with Watmore right and Craig wide left.

Jim, I'd easily have Thomson in my side every week. But like McInnes at A'deen, I'd be cute about where to play him - he'd be my 'sitter' in front of the defence. He needs games and he needs to sharpen up but he'd be in my side as he adds composure.

What I'm always drawn to is an old Eddie Turnbull adage that you build your side, regardless, around a good defence - and we play roulette when it comes to selection there. Eddie rated a guy called Jim Black, who my dad had a love hate thing going on with - but by all accounts he was the wee bit glue and 'steel' that the great 70's side needed when required to get stuck in. I was too young to appreciate it. We have a left midfielder who will play anywhere he is asked because he is a pro - yet he is not comfy at left back. We played a centre half at right back, and we played an ageing right back who has done more coaching than playing - at the top flight of football ??

For me, Terry has to bite the bullet and take a chance with Black and Baptie - they both know the positions of full back, and they both drive forward - they have energy and dig. Play Thommo in front of a pairing of say Jordon and Maybury, you have experience to lead the, through the game. But we have Nelson who simply treats the ball as a grenade, who isn't leading or talking to Jordon through games, and we have wee Lewis islolated. Recipe for disaster.

matty_f
19-04-2014, 07:26 PM
Why play both of them today, neither have played much football recently but butcher decides to play both. The guy is working his ticket in my opinion, and does not give a **** about us. GTF Butcher and take that clown who sits next to you too.

I don't think Butcher is deciding to play them, he's pishing with the cock he's got. Aside from Stanton, there is nobody in that squad right now that Butcher can hang his hat on for a performance. Taiwo and Stevenson might get a mention in that bracket as well, but neither of them are game winners. What does Butcher do- stick with Taiwo and Craig because Thomson and OTJ needs a few games? He can't - he has to try something.

He's caught between a rock and a hard place with it. I don't know his best 11, Fenlon didn't know his best 11 from that lot, there's a good reason for that.

Nando™
19-04-2014, 07:28 PM
If I was Butcher I wouldn't play 5 in the midfield if my intention was to hoof it to the forward (singular) as soon as possible.

coco22
19-04-2014, 07:32 PM
I posted earlier while still raging about today and things in general. Have had a chance to cool down (a bit) but genuinely let down and bemused as to how we have ended up where we are this season. Was very upbeat when butcher joined and want him to do well. Obviously he's no the only issue but really tired of the 'something's rotten at this club' banter - it's true but really can't stomach the next (inevitable?) search for the answer to all our problems.

Alfred E Newman
19-04-2014, 07:34 PM
Jim, I'd easily have Thomson in my side every week. But like McInnes at A'deen, I'd be cute about where to play him - he'd be my 'sitter' in front of the defence. He needs games and he needs to sharpen up but he'd be in my side as he adds composure.

What I'm always drawn to is an old Eddie Turnbull adage that you build your side, regardless, around a good defence - and we play roulette when it comes to selection there. Eddie rated a guy called Jim Black, who my dad had a love hate thing going on with - but by all accounts he was the wee bit glue and 'steel' that the great 70's side needed when required to get stuck in. I was too young to appreciate it. We have a left midfielder who will play anywhere he is asked because he is a pro - yet he is not comfy at left back. We played a centre half at right back, and we played an ageing right back who has done more coaching than playing - at the top flight of football ??

For me, Terry has to bite the bullet and take a chance with Black and Baptie - they both know the positions of full back, and they both drive forward - they have energy and dig. Play Thommo in front of a pairing of say Jordon and Maybury, you have experience to lead the, through the game. But we have Nelson who simply treats the ball as a grenade, who isn't leading or talking to Jordon through games, and we have wee Lewis islolated. Recipe for disaster.

Why did he not try and improve the defence during the January window? It's been our Achilles heel all season and beyond.

JimBHibees
19-04-2014, 07:34 PM
Jim, I'd easily have Thomson in my side every week. But like McInnes at A'deen, I'd be cute about where to play him - he'd be my 'sitter' in front of the defence. He needs games and he needs to sharpen up but he'd be in my side as he adds composure.

What I'm always drawn to is an old Eddie Turnbull adage that you build your side, regardless, around a good defence - and we play roulette when it comes to selection there. Eddie rated a guy called Jim Black, who my dad had a love hate thing going on with - but by all accounts he was the wee bit glue and 'steel' that the great 70's side needed when required to get stuck in. I was too young to appreciate it. We have a left midfielder who will play anywhere he is asked because he is a pro - yet he is not comfy at left back. We played a centre half at right back, and we played an ageing right back who has done more coaching than playing - at the top flight of football ??

For me, Terry has to bite the bullet and take a chance with Black and Baptie - they both know the positions of full back, and they both drive forward - they have energy and dig. Play Thommo in front of a pairing of say Jordon and Maybury, you have experience to lead the, through the game. But we have Nelson who simply treats the ball as a grenade, who isn't leading or talking to Jordon through games, and we have wee Lewis islolated. Recipe for disaster.

Agree completely. Butcher needs to punt the guff because they are taking us down and getting him the sack.

matty_f
19-04-2014, 07:35 PM
Jim, I'd easily have Thomson in my side every week. But like McInnes at A'deen, I'd be cute about where to play him - he'd be my 'sitter' in front of the defence. He needs games and he needs to sharpen up but he'd be in my side as he adds composure.

What I'm always drawn to is an old Eddie Turnbull adage that you build your side, regardless, around a good defence - and we play roulette when it comes to selection there. Eddie rated a guy called Jim Black, who my dad had a love hate thing going on with - but by all accounts he was the wee bit glue and 'steel' that the great 70's side needed when required to get stuck in. I was too young to appreciate it. We have a left midfielder who will play anywhere he is asked because he is a pro - yet he is not comfy at left back. We played a centre half at right back, and we played an ageing right back who has done more coaching than playing - at the top flight of football ??

For me, Terry has to bite the bullet and take a chance with Black and Baptie - they both know the positions of full back, and they both drive forward - they have energy and dig. Play Thommo in front of a pairing of say Jordon and Maybury, you have experience to lead the, through the game. But we have Nelson who simply treats the ball as a grenade, who isn't leading or talking to Jordon through games, and we have wee Lewis islolated. Recipe for disaster.

Butcher's not playing roulette with the defence, that's what he's got to deal with. I don't think he can put three youngsters in with Nelson in a team in our positions, I really don't. If we were safe and Butcher had the injury/suspension issues that he has with the defence than absolutely put the youth players in and give them a chance.

Today, as much as it frightens me to say it, he played the strongest back four available to him. That's a huge worry.

Centre Hawf
19-04-2014, 07:36 PM
For me it's a combination of Rod and Pat :agree: that said, Terry Butcher's recent management has left me stunned.

But we are where we are because of a chronic inability to identify good players by Pat.

If you looked at his signings though:

Craig was a goalscoring midfielder who we all agreed was a good signing.

Robertson our most consistent player this season.

Williams our best keeper for a while.

McGivern was a signing everyone agreed would be a good bit of business of we had managed to keep him, which we did.

Nelson was a decent centre half that was limited but was "no nonsense"

Thomson is deemed the best player at the club by everyone here.

Taiwo has been the best player in the last month or so (not sure why he was dropped)

Heffernan is widely accepted as the best finisher at the club who has a decent SPL record.

Is Fenlons signings that bad or are they mismanaged and given poor tactics? My moneys on the latter.

Elephant Stone
19-04-2014, 07:42 PM
Then you must have a very very poor memory.

We've got a strong squad. Do we? Aye?

We had a squad that was 5th in the league and had the best defence in the league outside Celtic. We did. Aye.

emerald green
19-04-2014, 07:42 PM
This has all happened ever since Butcher decided to tell the world who was wanted and who was going to show the door. Rumours of training ground bust ups, unhappy players, bullying by Malpas after games, the whole squad have gave in all because Butcher has lost the dressing room big style.

I've always said don't listen to rumours, but in this case there must surely be some truth in them. Otherwise, how can the complete collapse in performances and results since about just after New Year be explained? One win in 15 games or something like that I think.

portycabbage
19-04-2014, 07:44 PM
If Fenlon could have won derbies (something no Hibs manager has done with regularity since McLeish) he'd probably still be our manager, we'd probably be 6th or 7th in the league, and the discontent about him would just be the odd grumble.

Fenlon was unbeaten in derbies last season (w2 d3, should have been other way about too), he left because his team looked like they were trying to run down the clock, just trying to keep possession (without any real attacking play) for the whole game every week, and because of the capitulation in other important games. Maybe if he'd won derbies this season you would have a point, but I think it's stretching it a bit. And we're actually still 7th now!

truehibernian
19-04-2014, 07:51 PM
If you looked at his signings though:

Craig was a goalscoring midfielder who we all agreed was a good signing.

Robertson our most consistent player this season.

Williams our best keeper for a while.

McGivern was a signing everyone agreed would be a good bit of business of we had managed to keep him, which we did.

Nelson was a decent centre half that was limited but was "no nonsense"

Thomson is deemed the best player at the club by everyone here.

Taiwo has been the best player in the last month or so (not sure why he was dropped)

Heffernan is widely accepted as the best finisher at the club who has a decent SPL record.

Is Fenlons signings that bad or are they mismanaged and given poor tactics? My moneys on the latter.

I wasn't being argumentative mate, just trying to put my opinion on things.

Robertson was a terrific signing as we are now finding out - but he is injury prone. We need him back soon.

Liam Craig - I've never been convinced and this year he has been nothing short of chronic. Thommo I think is and always will be a good footballer. Heffernan - yep, good finisher but again seems to have lettuce groins, maybe like Clancy, just doesn't fancy games as much anymore. Taiwo is a player I've always rated and I think we have more energy when he plays.

But Pat failed, like Calderwood, by not buying in genuine pace - searing pace. And neither added real creativity in the middle of the park.

We are now blessed with midfielders who don't drive forward, play side to side, don't beat mean as a rule, and are really quite industrial and static.

We got rid of over 60 goals in letting Leigh, Eoin and Wotherspoon go. It's absolutely no surprise we are the lowest scorers after who we brought in. I wish I could dig out my old posts but I predicted early in the season we would maybe end up in this situation because of our signing policy this season.

I know Pat wanted other players, I also know they went elsewhere because we didn't offer enough. Petrie is the main target for my ire - but Pat comes a close second as I don't think he knew what a creative player was.

Scouse Hibee
19-04-2014, 08:00 PM
...regardless of what happens in the next four games.

I'd say to myself "This poisoned chalice has destroyed the value of everything I achieved at ICT. I need to get out while I've still got the shreds of a career left to resurrect."

No idea whether that would leave our shambles of a club better or worse off, frankly.

I'd say to myself for **** sake I've made a right erse of this job, pretty much the same erse I made of other jobs apart from the one time I got lucky.

Beefster
19-04-2014, 08:00 PM
We had a squad that was 5th in the league and had the best defence in the league outside Celtic. We did. Aye.

We had also scored the second least goals in the league. It's easier to keep the goals conceded down when you're parking 10 men behind the ball, not bothering trying to attack and just going for a draw in every game.

Expecting Rain
19-04-2014, 08:05 PM
The present management are more than capable of taking us forward as a club and enhancing the prospects of our talented youngsters, the problem lies
with those individuals who cannot handle a bit of criticism and who are letting themselves down by not rising to the challenge and proving that they are capable of representing HIBS.

Elephant Stone
19-04-2014, 08:07 PM
We had also scored the second least goals in the league. It's easier to keep the goals conceded down when you're parking 10 men behind the ball, not bothering trying to attack and just going for a draw in every game.

When you've got two strikers playing together for the first time it's not surprising that they don't score loads right away. It looked as though Heffernan and Collins were forming a partnership though, think they scored 3 or 4 between them over 2 games towards the end of PF's time. If they had been allowed to keep working together then I'd be surprised if we'd have kept on scoring so few. When PF left we were solid at the back but still had work to do up top, now we've lost any strength at the back and any hope in hell of sorting it out up top.

I don't buy that he never bothered to attack, our strikers must have scored about 35 goals last season and our strikers this season never had the chance to get a run in the team to build consistency.

Centre Hawf
19-04-2014, 08:12 PM
I wasn't being argumentative mate, just trying to put my opinion on things.

Robertson was a terrific signing as we are now finding out - but he is injury prone. We need him back soon.

Liam Craig - I've never been convinced and this year he has been nothing short of chronic. Thommo I think is and always will be a good footballer. Heffernan - yep, good finisher but again seems to have lettuce groins, maybe like Clancy, just doesn't fancy games as much anymore. Taiwo is a player I've always rated and I think we have more energy when he plays.

But Pat failed, like Calderwood, by not buying in genuine pace - searing pace. And neither added real creativity in the middle of the park.

We are now blessed with midfielders who don't drive forward, play side to side, don't beat mean as a rule, and are really quite industrial and static.

We got rid of over 60 goals in letting Leigh, Eoin and Wotherspoon go. It's absolutely no surprise we are the lowest scorers after who we brought in. I wish I could dig out my old posts but I predicted early in the season we would maybe end up in this situation because of our signing policy this season.

I know Pat wanted other players, I also know they went elsewhere because we didn't offer enough. Petrie is the main target for my ire - but Pat comes a close second as I don't think he knew what a creative player was.

I know you weren't mate, wasn't meaning to come across like that either.

I think you're right about the injuries and more so the pace. He failed to ever get a pacey good wide man in. He lucked out on Harris and Matty Done was pish. Cairney slow as a week in the jail. Craig wasnt a winger and he even had a spell of using Handling out wide. So his flaw was wingers.

But what he failed in Wingers I think he made up for in centre mids. Claros was one of the best players ive seen at ER for a few years now, Robertson, Thomson, Craig (for me theres a player in there), Taiwo, and I actually think Deegan was decent pre jaw break then came back a fraction of the player.

Collins was apparently our 5/6th choice striker (heard this from a decent source, not naming) So I wonder what went wrong in enticing the other 5.

matty_f
19-04-2014, 08:35 PM
If you looked at his signings though:

Craig was a goalscoring midfielder who we all agreed was a good signing.

Robertson our most consistent player this season.

Williams our best keeper for a while.

McGivern was a signing everyone agreed would be a good bit of business of we had managed to keep him, which we did.

Nelson was a decent centre half that was limited but was "no nonsense"

Thomson is deemed the best player at the club by everyone here.

Taiwo has been the best player in the last month or so (not sure why he was dropped)

Heffernan is widely accepted as the best finisher at the club who has a decent SPL record.

Is Fenlons signings that bad or are they mismanaged and given poor tactics? My moneys on the latter.

It's more about what Fenlon didn't sign as opposed to who he did, IMHO.

He didn't fix the wide positions, we had Harris who was injured very early on, and Cairney, again injured early in the season. There was no pace in the side and that wasn't fixed. Without creativity in the wide positions, we needed a creator in the middle, which Fenlon didn't fix. We needed a right back, Fenlon didn't sort that position either.

We have some good players, but we have positions without a good player to fill them and that's one of the key reasons Fenlon struggled and Butcher is struggling.

TornadoHibby
19-04-2014, 08:41 PM
It's more about what Fenlon didn't sign as opposed to who he did, IMHO.

He didn't fix the wide positions, we had Harris who was injured very early on, and Cairney, again injured early in the season. There was no pace in the side and that wasn't fixed. Without creativity in the wide positions, we needed a creator in the middle, which Fenlon didn't fix. We needed a right back, Fenlon didn't sort that position either.

We have some good players, but we have positions without a good player to fill them and that's one of the key reasons Fenlon struggled and Butcher is struggling.

If these were critical positions needing new players in, why did TB not get them in during the January window??!

Centre Hawf
19-04-2014, 09:05 PM
It's more about what Fenlon didn't sign as opposed to who he did, IMHO.

He didn't fix the wide positions, we had Harris who was injured very early on, and Cairney, again injured early in the season. There was no pace in the side and that wasn't fixed. Without creativity in the wide positions, we needed a creator in the middle, which Fenlon didn't fix. We needed a right back, Fenlon didn't sort that position either.

We have some good players, but we have positions without a good player to fill them and that's one of the key reasons Fenlon struggled and Butcher is struggling.

Like someone else posted why hasn't Butcher sorted these problems? No right back? Or is Forster his plan for that in the long term?

Watmore looks an ok player but still a raw talent. I'd argue though Craig was a creative player to play in the centre but it didn't work out that way.

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:21 PM
If these were critical positions needing new players in, why did TB not get them in during the January window??!

Presumably (given however many Hibs managers and countless managers from other teams make this point every January window) it's because either there weren't good enough players available, or we didn't have the budget for it.

Centre Hawf
19-04-2014, 09:25 PM
Presumably (given however many Hibs managers and countless managers from other teams make this point every January window) it's because either there weren't good enough players available, or we didn't have the budget for it.

Here was me thinking Aberdeen didn't sign well in January.

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:26 PM
Here was me thinking Aberdeen didn't sign well in January.

We didn't have the budget for Rooney, see Butcher's comments at the time (we could only offer a loan). That's not Butcher's fault - he tried to sign him.

Thecat23
19-04-2014, 09:30 PM
We didn't have the budget for Rooney, see Butcher's comments at the time (we could only offer a loan). That's not Butcher's fault - he tried to sign him.

Uncle Rodders should have pushed the boat out. Picking up players cheaply results in one thing. Where we are now. Sometimes in life you have to the risks to reap the rewards.

And before anyone starts I'm not talking going daft like our crazy neighbours.

Centre Hawf
19-04-2014, 09:31 PM
We didn't have the budget for Rooney, see Butcher's comments at the time (we could only offer a loan). That's not Butcher's fault - he tried to sign him.

Alan Tate, Shaleum Logan all would walk into our side. Filip Kiss and Lyle Taylor?

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:32 PM
Uncle Rodders should have pushed the boat out. Picking up players cheaply results in one thing. Where we are now. Sometimes in life you have to the risks to reap the rewards.

And before anyone starts I'm not talking going daft like our crazy neighbours.

It would have been a good bit of business, no doubt.:agree:

TornadoHibby
19-04-2014, 09:33 PM
Presumably (given however many Hibs managers and countless managers from other teams make this point every January window) it's because either there weren't good enough players available, or we didn't have the budget for it.

And the reason for Fenlon's failure on the same issues that you have identified to justify Hibs current joust with the relegation play offs?

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:35 PM
Alan Tate, Shaleum Logan all would walk into our side. Filip Kiss and Lyle Taylor?

I'm not sure if I'm missing your point, or you're missing mine. We had no money to bring anyone on a contract in, we had to look for loans. I don't know if we were in for either Taylor or Kiss. We also had at least one deal fall through late on.

Danderhall Hibs
19-04-2014, 09:35 PM
It would have been a good bit of business, no doubt.:agree:

On the face of it it would but does he create chances for himself? That's what we need, a striker that can score 20+ goals with little or no service.

Centre Hawf
19-04-2014, 09:37 PM
I'm not sure if I'm missing your point, or you're missing mine. We had no money to bring anyone on a contract in, we had to look for loans. I don't know if we were in for either Taylor or Kiss. We also had at least one deal fall through late on.

All i listed there are Loans mate. My point is why weren't we in for them and if we were why didn't they come here?

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:37 PM
And the reason for Fenlon's failure on the same issues that you have identified to justify Hibs current joust with the relegation play offs?

Probably because he signed about sixteen central midfielders, and James Collins?

GreenCastle
19-04-2014, 09:38 PM
Ian Murray / Tony Mowbray - both would save us from the playoffs.

i agree about 5 in midfield and long ball tactics - play with a lone striker and they will never see the ball. 2 up front also only works if the 2 can hold and work together !

Preparing for a game for 2 weeks and losing a goal after 15 seconds is also a travesty.

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:38 PM
All i listed there are Loans mate. My point is why weren't we in for them and if we were why didn't they come here?

I am not sure how you're expecting me to know the answer to either of those points.

truehibernian
19-04-2014, 09:38 PM
I'm not sure if I'm missing your point, or you're missing mine. We had no money to bring anyone on a contract in, we had to look for loans. I don't know if we were in for either Taylor or Kiss. We also had at least one deal fall through late on.

Matty we bid four times for Taylor but each bid was derisory despite Falkirk telling Hibs what they wanted - Rod tried to get him on the cheap and failed big style.

My 'snout' told me Falkirk were both angry and laughing at Hibs thinking they were 'billy bigshots'

Simple fact is the player would have come if Hibs had immediately offered what Sheffield ultimately paid - which Hibs knew four bids before.

jeffers
19-04-2014, 09:39 PM
We didn't have the budget for Rooney, see Butcher's comments at the time (we could only offer a loan). That's not Butcher's fault - he tried to sign him.

Butcher's comments at the time were that he only wanted to offer Rooney a loan not that we could only afford to offer a loan. If the former was true why not say that ?

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:40 PM
Matty we bid four times for Taylor but each bid was derisory despite Falkirk telling Hibs what they wanted - Rod tried to get him on the cheap and failed big style.

My 'snout' told me Falkirk were both angry and laughing at Hibs thinking they were 'billy bigshots'

Simple fact is the player would have come if Hibs had immediately offered what Sheffield ultimately paid - which Hibs knew four bids before.

That may well be the case mate, but it was in the summer and it was Fenlon.

We're talking about January and Butcher.:greengrin

Danderhall Hibs
19-04-2014, 09:40 PM
Butcher's comments at the time were that he only wanted to offer Rooney a loan not that we could only afford to offer a loan. If the former was true why not say that ?

To not lose face? Keep the boss onside?

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:40 PM
Butcher's comments at the time were that he only wanted to offer Rooney a loan not that we could only afford to offer a loan. If the former was true why not say that ?

Why do you think he wouldn't say that?

Centre Hawf
19-04-2014, 09:41 PM
I am not sure how you're expecting me to know the answer to either of those points.

I was more using these as examples of how we could have strengthened in January but failed to do so.

Thecat23
19-04-2014, 09:46 PM
It would have been a good bit of business, no doubt.:agree:

Defo Matty, it's beyond frustrating now. Rod has so much to answer for he really does. People think he fully backs managers, sorry that's pish. He fully backs them when it's their 3rd or fourth choice player. We very rarely outbid anyone for a player and the transfer windows may as well open on the last days for us as 90% of our deals come then. Exception of one or two deals.

GreenCastle
19-04-2014, 09:46 PM
What was the point of Boateng signing in January?

We needed goals and ready defenders / a creative midfielder.

jeffers
19-04-2014, 09:47 PM
Why do you think he wouldn't say that?
You tell me. He's supposed to be the no nonsense manager who would stand up to Rod Petrie. If we blew all our budget in the summer what's the issue in saying that ?

matty_f
19-04-2014, 09:48 PM
Defo Matty, it's beyond frustrating now. Rod has so much to answer for he really does. People think he fully backs managers, sorry that's pish. He fully backs them when it's their 3rd or fourth choice player. We very rarely outbid anyone for a player and the transfer windows may as well open on the last days for us as 90% of our deals come then. Exception of one or two deals.

I think it's clear to see that the way we've gone about signing players over the last few years has been scandalously poor.

rcarter1
19-04-2014, 09:48 PM
If these were critical positions needing new players in, why did TB not get them in during the January window??!

Its a good point. Watmore was worth bringing in, the other two not so much. A bit strange not to bring more in, but maybe they didn't want to commit to too many players and have a more considered look over the summer. Don't think they or anyone actually believed that relegation could be a possibility. I still think that Pat showed his inexperience at this level by failing to get the pace players essential to providing a team with threat. We were awful to watch under Pat, but TB is really making a mess of an already bad situation.

FranckSuzy
19-04-2014, 09:55 PM
Butcher's comments at the time were that he only wanted to offer Rooney a loan not that we could only afford to offer a loan. If the former was true why not say that ?

At the last WT meeting, David Forsyth advised that Rooney only wanted to come on loan. Strange one :confused:

IberianHibernian
19-04-2014, 10:04 PM
If these were critical positions needing new players in, why did TB not get them in during the January window??! Arrogance on TB`s part as he assumed he would automatically do a better job than PF and lack of ambition from Petrie etc for letting TB think that they could just carry on mid table till summer and any flak would be for Fenlon ( just as Petrie did at AGM after Yogi left ) . Shocking lack of insight and leadership from both .

FitbaFolkKen
19-04-2014, 10:06 PM
We didn't have the budget for Rooney, see Butcher's comments at the time (we could only offer a loan). That's not Butcher's fault - he tried to sign him.

Butcher made it out as if it was his choice to only go for the loan.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/terry-butcher-hibs-didn-t-offer-rooney-a-deal-1-3281432

jeffers
19-04-2014, 10:06 PM
At the last WT meeting, David Forsyth advised that Rooney only wanted to come on loan. Strange one :confused:

Someone isn't being honest that's for sure.

Thecat23
19-04-2014, 10:09 PM
At the last WT meeting, David Forsyth advised that Rooney only wanted to come on loan. Strange one :confused:

That is rubbish. Rooney never once asked to come here on loan. Is this what was really said? His agent will piss himself when he hears this.

truehibernian
19-04-2014, 10:09 PM
Someone isn't being honest that's for sure.

It's utter nonsense on Hibs part :aok:

truehibernian
19-04-2014, 10:10 PM
That is rubbish. Rooney never once asked to come here on loan. Is this what was really said? His agent will piss himself when he hears this.

Sorry TC you beat me to it :greengrin

FranckSuzy
19-04-2014, 10:12 PM
That is rubbish. Rooney never once asked to come here on loan. Is this what was really said? His agent will piss himself when he hears this.

:agree:

Thecat23
19-04-2014, 10:14 PM
:agree:

I never knew this. Who said it? They have lied to everyone that was there. Now I know the board are liars what hope we got??

Golden Bear
19-04-2014, 10:22 PM
By the way, I could have posted this on a number of other threads tonight, but there really have been some heartfelt and constructive posts on the messageboard.

If only the Board and Players felt the same passion!

FranckSuzy
19-04-2014, 10:45 PM
I never knew this. Who said it? They have lied to everyone that was there. Now I know the board are liars what hope we got??

Almost 100% sure it was DF but if not it was Garry O'Hagan.

147lothian
19-04-2014, 10:48 PM
By the way, I could have posted this on a number of other threads tonight, but there really have been some heartfelt and constructive posts on the messageboard.

If only the Board and Players felt the same passion!

TB and SM came to Hibs with a good spl record, the malaise at Easter Road was there long before they arrived, this trying to get loans instead of spending has gone too far, Hibs are a laughing stock, IMO the problem is upstairs with the board and the way they are running the playing side on the cheap

AlbertK86
19-04-2014, 10:51 PM
I believe he was paid to leave. But both parties decided to keep a lid on it. It wouldn't have made sense for him to walk. He was seeing money that he never came close to seeing in his playing career.

This was indeed the case. Spoke to somebody very close to paddy last week who said exactly this

Also confirmed RP blocked several signings by refusing to match the wages offered by other SPL clubs

Quote 'pats hands were completely tied' by RP

jeffers
19-04-2014, 11:01 PM
This was indeed the case. Spoke to somebody very close to paddy last week who said exactly this

Also confirmed RP blocked several signings by refusing to match the wages offered by other SPL clubs

Quote 'pats hands were completely tied' by RP

Interesting 'cos that's not what my mate tells me PF said to him. He is seeing him next weekend, I've asked him to try and get a straight answer on a number of points.

Admittedly there were a few conflicting stories. Stuart McCall said they couldn't match what we had offered Clancy, yet OTJ signed or us despite us not offering any more than ICT did. PF also told my mate that he couldn't complain about the backing he received from RP....Maybe he was being diplomatic, but if I hear anything from my mate re PF I will try and post it.

matty_f
19-04-2014, 11:06 PM
Interesting 'cos that's not what my mate tells me PF said to him. He is seeing him next weekend, I've asked him to try and get a straight answer on a number of points.

Admittedly there were a few conflicting stories. Stuart McCall said they couldn't match what we had offered Clancy, yet OTJ signed or us despite us not offering any more than ICT did. PF also told my mate that he couldn't complain about the backing he received from RP....Maybe he was being diplomatic, but if I hear anything from my mate re PF I will try and post it.

I think the fact that we posted losses for consecutive years shows that the board did as much as they could for the managers, even (dare I say it) speculating to accumulate a little.

It didn't get us anywhere, mind you.

jeffers
19-04-2014, 11:12 PM
I think the fact that we posted losses for consecutive years shows that the board did as much as they could for the managers, even (dare I say it) speculating to accumulate a little.

It didn't get us anywhere, mind you.
I'm no lover of RP but that's pretty much how I see it. I do believe he tries to pay the lowest he can get away with and it does result in us missing out at times, but then when you consider last summer we were the only team outwith Celtic who paid a fee for a player.......

IberianHibernian
19-04-2014, 11:23 PM
However much you know a present or ex manager I don`t think think comments about backing or lack of it from club will be that significant . Noone will want to say too much while looking for work elsewhere . What is obvious is that we made a lot from successive runs to the SC final and having lost our 2 best players and our second top goalscorer ( plus injuries to McPake , Harris , Clancy and Harris early in season ) Fenlon or any other manager would have needed a much bigger investment than he got to challenge for top 4 and that`s without considering further back up in coaching staff ( was it really necessary to wait till the last day to know if Maybury was staying ? ) especially after having almost no close season .

Phil D. Rolls
20-04-2014, 12:00 AM
I'm not sure if I'm missing your point, or you're missing mine. We had no money to bring anyone on a contract in, we had to look for loans. I don't know if we were in for either Taylor or Kiss. We also had at least one deal fall through late on.

I think the lack of budget masks the fact that our new management had enough good players to: go further in the Scottish Cup; and not get us into the **** we're in.

This is now a failure of management. We usually go up the way when we get a new boss. Seems Terry has been going through a learning curve.

hibeemikey21
20-04-2014, 12:17 AM
If I was Butcher I wouldn't play 5 in the midfield if my intention was to hoof it to the forward (singular) as soon as possible.

This has always been my gripe!

Why overload the midfield when we always look to bypass it?!?

Beefster
20-04-2014, 08:04 AM
At the last WT meeting, David Forsyth advised that Rooney only wanted to come on loan. Strange one :confused:

That's not true. Says a lot about the attitude towards Working Together too.

FranckSuzy
20-04-2014, 09:36 AM
That's not true. Says a lot about the attitude towards Working Together too.

Excuse me? What's not true and what does it say about the attitude of WT? :confused: I was there. Were you?

Beefster
20-04-2014, 09:43 AM
Excuse me? What's not true and what does it say about the attitude of WT? :confused: I was there. Were you?

Is it possible, just once, to mention LWT/WT without someone taking it the wrong way and getting ultra-defensive?

It's not true that Rooney only wanted to come on loan. I'm not disputing that folk were told that by the club.

The fact that LWT/WT are being fibbed/spun/however-you-want-to-take-it to, IMHO, says a lot about the club's attitude to the initiative/group/fans.

southsider
20-04-2014, 09:49 AM
The players dont play for the manager that, now, is a given. Most dont even play for the club. What about for cash ? Big bonus if we stay up and if we dont then its cost us zilch. Worth trying ?

FranckSuzy
20-04-2014, 09:50 AM
That's not true. Says a lot about the attitude towards Working Together too.


Is it possible, just once, to mention LWT/WT without someone taking it the wrong way and getting ultra-defensive?

It's not true that Rooney only wanted to come on loan. I'm not disputing that folk were told that by the club.

The fact that LWT/WT are being fibbed/spun/however-you-want-to-take-it to, IMHO, says a lot about the club's attitude to the initiative/group/fans.

Is it possible, just once, for someone to post what they are really trying to say without abbreviating it so much that the context is lost? It reads as if you were implying that I was lying and doesn't explain that you meant the attitude perhaps being shown to WT by the club. :aok:

cleanyman
20-04-2014, 09:51 AM
I'd rather have man flu than Terry Butcher.

Tyler Durden
20-04-2014, 10:12 AM
However much you know a present or ex manager I don`t think think comments about backing or lack of it from club will be that significant . Noone will want to say too much while looking for work elsewhere . What is obvious is that we made a lot from successive runs to the SC final and having lost our 2 best players and our second top goalscorer ( plus injuries to McPake , Harris , Clancy and Harris early in season ) Fenlon or any other manager would have needed a much bigger investment than he got to challenge for top 4 and that`s without considering further back up in coaching staff ( was it really necessary to wait till the last day to know if Maybury was staying ? ) especially after having almost no close season .

I don't agree, the overall budget should have been more than enough, it's commensurate with other teams who are up there so why should we need to spend more?

There were 2 problems IMO. Firstly Fenlon signed a bunch of duds. OTJ, Taiwo, Craig, Robertson, Thomson - I'm not suggesting they're all poor players but why did we need so many? And ultimately very few were a success. Then at RB he signed Clancy, Mullen and Maybury, again none a success. Up front Collins, Vine and Heffernan, same story and thats kindly leaving out Kuqi (funny how the apparent benefits Caldwell and Handling were getting from working with him didn't materialise on the field).

The second problem which I can only speculate on is that Petrie appears to prevent the manager spending the budget in his own way. Or prevents then securing top targets. The Lyle Taylor affair has been commented on here and that was a microcosm of the last 6/7 years transfer policy.

No wonder so many fans have had enough.