Butcher out

[Weir7]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

[Hermit Crab]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

Horrendous thread op. 5 months in and you want him sacked and replaced by judas! Either you've been on the sauce or you're a yam at the lash.

[gegs70]

You.can't judge a manager until he brings in his own players...

[Islington Hibs]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over


12 managers in 11 years?

We have just spent, I would guess, £400k pa for a 3 year contract (?) getting the three of them in. Most supporters were completely in favour of Butcher. To sack them after 20 games at a cost of I don't know, perhaps a million pounds, is just not going to happen and it would not be justified. Hibs would become an even bigger laughing stock than they currently are.

What ever happens Butcher will lead Hibs next season, like it or not, so I suggest we support the guy and the team (hard as that might be given woeful performance after woeful performance)

Sure there are problems, but this is not his team, and while we have been very poor we have not had much luck. We have five games to turn this around and then prepare for hopefully a better season next year.

[Weir7]

Horrendous thread op. 5 months in and you want him sacked and replaced by judas! Either you've been on the sauce or you're a yam at the lash.

Butcher is cluless. Yam good one

[Billychaotic182]

Wow

[patch1875]

Won't happen, although I didn't want him in the first place it would be madness to sack him, needs all next season to be judged.

[Thecat23]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

You really are a strange one. You honestly want him sacked before he's had a chance to sign one player???

[Mikey]

Horrendous thread op. 5 months in and you want him sacked and replaced by judas! Either you've been on the sauce or you're a yam at the lash.

Definitely a hibby so let's not do the yam thing :wink:

[Monts]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

No thanks

[Ozyhibby]

Butcher has made mistakes but no way should we even be talking about getting rid. He needs to be given the chance over the summer to rebuild.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm not calling for Butcher to go.

But he has turned a team we were annoyed was going to finish in mid table mediocrity into genuine contenders (not in a good way) for the play off spot.

Anyway we need to back the team we have now. Most won't be here next season anyway and as long as we are in the Premiership that can only be a good thing.

[Hermit Crab]

You.can't judge a manager until he brings in his own players...

Agree.

[Hermit Crab]

Definitely a hibby so let's not do the yam thing :wink:

Sound.

[Hermit Crab]

Butcher is cluless. Yam good one

Come back when he's built his own team and it hasn't worked out. Nobody should be calling for the managers head, it's #petrieout we should be calling for.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over
Weir7 out

[Weir7]

You really are a strange one. You honestly want him sacked before he's had a chance to sign one player???

Yes. Hes a football caveman. Hes signed three players. Two are junk and watmore is raw and no where near a first team player

[Weir7]

Come back when he's built his own team and it hasn't worked out. Nobody should be calling for the managers head, it's #petrieout we should be calling for.

Tony Pulis turned palace round using somebody else's players

[heid the baw]

The blame sits squarely with this group of players.
Also last nights was a game against a team we have not beaten in the league at ER for about 5 years. Haven't even scored a league goal against at ER for 3. They are flying and 2nd in the league. Not the best bench mark.
If Butcher was to be sacked, all that says to the players is, you lot are all ok and yet again the manager let you down.

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[Winston Ingram]

You really are a strange one. You honestly want him sacked before he's had a chance to sign one player???

He's signed 3 players:confused:

[Ozyhibby]

Tony Pulis turned palace round using somebody else's players

Let's get him then. All we need is Rod to sanction his £100k a week wages.
Job Done. Can't wait till he gets here.

[ALF TUPPER]

Butcher out ?

Och. Behave yourself and give the guy a break.
The guy is just in the door. For ***** sake.
Let him build his own team then we can see how he progresses.

[Waxy]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over
Unreal post. Lets just back the manager and players for the last 5 matches.

[Hermit Crab]

Tony Pulis turned palace round using somebody else's players

They're not safe yet. Plus Pulis has been offered a million quid if he keeps them up. Palace have a better reserve team than hibs best 11. No comparison IMO.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Unreal post. Lets just back the manager and players for the last 5 matches.

Absolutely, and I'm sure the vast majority will do just that. However, if the unthinkable happens as a consequence of our freefall, he must go as a point of honour.

[Steve-O]

You.can't judge a manager until he brings in his own players...

I judged Mowbray before he brought in many players. Judged him as a good manager.

[Saorsa]

Constantly changing the managers has changed nothing, constantly changing the players has changed nothing, time tae look elsewhere.

[Hermit Crab]

Constantly changing the managers hasnae worked, constantly changing the players has changed nothing, time tae look elsewhere.

Higher up the tree. They think they're safe. They are not. Get them out.

[Paloschi]

Come back when he's built his own team and it hasn't worked out. Nobody should be calling for the managers head, it's #petrieout we should be calling for.

Petrie out is the bigger picture but Butcher has had a transfer window and blew it. Everyone knew we needed a goalscorer. Also if we signed a half decent centre half or left back we would not be playing McGivern and Nelson every week.

Butcher and Malpas have had an absolute shocker. The way they have approached things is awful. When he came in he said we had a good squad and he has turned a team that looked safe for mid table into relegation candidates.

I like the sensible idea of giving managers time but look what happened when we gave Calderwood and Fenlon time. Petrie needs to be held accountable. Don't get me wrong I really want Butcher to succeed. I take no joy in all of this but I really am finding it difficult to have confidence in him even if he is given time to rebuild.

As for the players? PUSSY'S :agree:

[jdships]

Won't happen, although I didn't want him in the first place it would be madness to sack him, needs all next season to be judged.

:agree:
Wasn't all that excited , either, about his appointment but agree totally with your take :thumbsup:

[Hermit Crab]

Petrie out is the bigger picture but Butcher has had a transfer window and blew it. Everyone knew we needed a goalscorer. Also if we signed a half decent centre half or left back we would not be playing McGivern and Nelson every week.

Butcher and Malpas have had an absolute shocker. The way they have approached things is awful. When he came in he said we had a good squad and he has turned a team that looked safe for mid table into relegation candidates.

I like the sensible idea of giving managers time but look what happened when we gave Calderwood and Fenlon time. Petrie needs to be held accountable. Don't get me wrong I really want Butcher to succeed. I take no joy in all of this but I really am finding it difficult to have confidence in him even if he is given time to rebuild.

As for the players? PUSSY'S :agree:

Butcher wasn't allowed to sign anyone on a permanent deal. He's blown nothing as nothing was spent.

[Heisenberg]

How many of his January signings were first choice? I'd guess at zero. Petrie needs to get him backed in the summer. Only way we'll see any improvement. How come these players arent taking most of the blame by the way? Seems only a handful willing to fight and play. The rest hide. Our captain being a prime example.

[adhibs]

They're not safe yet. Plus Pulis has been offered a million quid if he keeps them up. Palace have a better reserve team than hibs best 11. No comparison IMO.

Palace play everton and man city, we play hearts and ross county. Butchers awful managing a bunch of players who should be doing better at this level

[HKhibby]

He's signed 3 players:confused:I watch from afar & i do believe Butcher & Malpas have to be given some time to change things, it isnor really their fault about the uselessl players they were left! From Fenlon, yowever i do think Butcher should have turned things around a bit since taking over....even just a few more wins, his biggest mistake was telling the players he wants out or surplus to requirementsb But on saying that i think thereis more of a problem, whilst i do not mind petrie & all he has done for Hobs, i tbink the time has come for him to move on, not leave bu move sideways & let someone else take the chairmans job with a bit more investment!

[Weir7]

Butcher wasn't allowed to sign anyone on a permanent deal. He's blown nothing as nothing was spent.

Wages. Very very unusual we pay transfer fees

[Paloschi]

Butcher wasn't allowed to sign anyone on a permanent deal. He's blown nothing as nothing was spent.


Do you know this? If so then fair enough.

I still think he could have used the loan market better. Lyle Taylor would have been our top scorer by now for example.

[Weir7]

They're not safe yet. Plus Pulis has been offered a million quid if he keeps them up. Palace have a better reserve team than hibs best 11. No comparison IMO.

All relative

[Diclonius]

Scapegoat out, scapegoat in.

[IWasThere2016]

They're not safe yet. Plus Pulis has been offered a million quid if he keeps them up. Palace have a better reserve team than hibs best 11. No comparison IMO.

Palace aren't playing Partick, Killie etc. They are competing against other clubs with larger multi-million pound budgets, and there's 3 places for the drop. A comparison is valid IMHO, and TB wouldn't be my pick for the best of the two.

[Hermit Crab]

Do you know this? If so then fair enough.

I still think he could have used the loan market better. Lyle Taylor would have been our top scorer by now for example.

Do you know this?

[Hermit Crab]

[QUOT E=Weir7;3963497]All relative[/QUOTE]


Comparing hibs to crystal palace and tony Pulis. Right then.

[eggbamyasi]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

Nonsense ..............

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[IWasThere2016]

Butcher wasn't allowed to sign anyone on a permanent deal. He's blown nothing as nothing was spent.

This. Our offer to Rooney was a loan for 6 months. Eberdeen offered a permanent contract on better money. Wonder how that worked out with his goals leading to silverware, European football etc. Ambition has its price, and rewards :wink:

[eggbamyasi]

I judged Mowbray before he brought in many players. Judged him as a good manager.

And ?

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[Beefster]

http://www.facepalm.su/wp-content/gallery/double-facepalm-2/third-party-facepalm.jpg

[ancient hibee]

Could we not get Colin Calderwood back-he's just become available?

[Keith_M]

This is getting ridiculous.


:rolleyes:

[eggbamyasi]

This. Our offer to Rooney was a loan for 6 months. Eberdeen offered a permanent contract on better money. Wonder how that worked out with his goals leading to silverware, European football etc. Ambition has its price, and rewards :wink:

Rooney ????? You saying with our ***** team rooney would have made the difference . remember its adam rooney ....... not wayne lololol signing rooney we would prob be in exact same place .

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[Waxy]

Can't count the last window. I'm sure everyone at Hibs including fans thought there was no chance of relegation and we had enough to get us through to summer.

[brian6-2]

i really fear the worst for some of our fans. not just the op. the ammount of folk i heard last night bleating on about sacking butcher. absolutely woeful attitude.

[Waxy]

i really fear the worst for some of our fans. not just the op. the ammount of folk i heard last night bleating on about sacking butcher. absolutely woeful attitude.

Agree totally.

[brian6-2]

Agree totally.

Im starting to think that half them know hee haw about football.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Im starting to think that half them know hee haw about football.

Sometimes the heart rules the head. Fans are angry and want this shambles put right. People are lashing out, which is understandable in present circumstances.

[TrinityHibs]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

Why stop there? Lets get Pepe Guardiola in. I'm sure he's not a bad manager.

[Hermit Crab]

Why stop there? Lets get Pepe Guardiola in. I'm sure he's not a bad manager.

Then sack him.

[TrinityHibs]

Then sack him.

after 20 games but only after abusing him for a 18. Guardiola oot I want Mourinho

[Sylar]

Why stop there? Lets get Pepe Guardiola in. I'm sure he's not a bad manager.

Even he couldn't get this lot winning football games.

Even if the OP gets his somewhat ridiculous (IMO) wish for him to be sacked, nobody with any managerial pedigree would touch the Hibs job with a barge pole just now.

[Hermit Crab]

Even he couldn't get this lot winning football games.

Even if the OP gets his somewhat ridiculous (IMO) wish for him to be sacked, nobody with any managerial pedigree would touch the Hibs job with a barge pole just now.

Correct, there's not exactly a queue of proven managers forming to take the job.

[Waxy]

Sometimes the heart rules the head. Fans are angry and want this shambles put right. People are lashing out, which is understandable in present circumstances.

You get to think that some of the worst are right screamers and are only at the footie coz the wifes chucked them out.when something goes wrong they blurt out a whine that sound like they've had an orgasm and sat on a tack at the same time. Or something

[Waxy]

And it was only months ago we were all" Petrie get Butcher in" and" make it happen" and "why would Butcher want to come to us"? We have to all get behind the club.

[lucky]

I want Butcher out and Petrie out as well. Last night Butcher got his tactics wrong, team selection wrong and his subs wrong. On top of that he has alienated the players and has his assistant manager verbally abusing the support. We are heading for relegation with no real hope of a swift return to the premiership. So can't really think why we should keep him or Petrie.

[Beefster]

I want Butcher out and Petrie out as well. Last night Butcher got his tactics wrong, team selection wrong and his subs wrong. On top of that he has alienated the players and has his assistant manager verbally abusing the support. We are heading for relegation with no real hope of a swift return to the premiership. So can't really think why we should keep him or Petrie.

And he voted Tory once.

[Keith_M]

And he voted Tory once.


Well, that's me convinced. I was previously asking everybody to stay with him a bit longer but he can do one!




:grr:

[Bostonhibby]

Tony Pulis turned palace round using somebody else's half decent players

Fixed that for you :wink:

Butcher must stay, with the usual right to change my my mind the following November.

[J-C]

Said it before and I'll say it again, the man's man management skills are Neanderthal, by telling so many players they were either offski in January or will be in the summer, they have went downhill so fast it's unreal, instead he should've been dangling the chance of a new contract in their faces and telling them that was what they were playing for until the end of the season. Now all the majority of them want is to get the **** away from here asap as they want nothing more to do with our deadly duo.

[jakeshibs]

[QUOTE=Weir7;3963317]Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over[/QUOTE

I disagree with you, god no!!

[lucky]

And he voted Tory once.

:thumbsup: that's good enough for me. Hang him, remember he's an ex Rangers captain as well. So the evidence is he is a crap manager, a Tory and a Hun. Only good thing from that he's voting NO in the indy referendum :greengrin

[Unseen work]

People are saying he got the team selection and tactics wrong? I can't see how as most of our players are terrible and he has tried every team possible!

Only change I would of made is thomson in for Craig and put Stanton advanced.

That one change might not of made us win though, so if he done that would still of got hounded

[The Modfather]

Can't count the last window. I'm sure everyone at Hibs including fans thought there was no chance of relegation and we had enough to get us through to summer.

Although probably unintended, that sentance sums up how we are ran. We're safe from relegation, lets not look to push on and upwards. We're safe so we can drift along for abother season.

[blackpoolhibs]

People are saying he got the team selection and tactics wrong? I can't see how as most of our players are terrible and he has tried every team possible!

Only change I would of made is thomson in for Craig and put Stanton advanced.

That one change might not of made us win though, so if he done that would still of got hounded

How come a poor manager like Fenlon could get this lot better results, is a new manager not supposed to be an improvement on the last one, and perhaps improve the team and results?

Under Butcher its got much worse, and its because of his team selections, tactics and motivational skills.

[Waxy]

Although probably unintended, that sentance sums up how we are ran. We're safe from relegation, lets not look to push on and upwards. We're safe so we can drift along for abother season.
Think it was a given we weren't going to set the heather on fire with the squad we have.The same players had just lost a manager his job.
I do see what you mean.

[yekimevol]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over


Im all for getting rid of butcher, any manager 4 wins in 20 or going 15ish games without a win deserves to go. Making Pats record from the start of the season look like Lippi or Mourinho.

[brian6-2]

Im all for getting rid of butcher, any manager 4 wins in 20 or going 15ish games without a win deserves to go. Making Pats record from the start of the record look like Lippi or Mourinho.

great idea, get rid of the manager when we are involved in a fight to avoid the play offs. you should apply for petries job. thats a genius suggestion.

[Mikey09]

Petrie out is the bigger picture but Butcher has had a transfer window and blew it. Everyone knew we needed a goalscorer. Also if we signed a half decent centre half or left back we would not be playing McGivern and Nelson every week.

Butcher and Malpas have had an absolute shocker. The way they have approached things is awful. When he came in he said we had a good squad and he has turned a team that looked safe for mid table into relegation candidates.

I like the sensible idea of giving managers time but look what happened when we gave Calderwood and Fenlon time. Petrie needs to be held accountable. Don't get me wrong I really want Butcher to succeed. I take no joy in all of this but I really am finding it difficult to have confidence in him even if he is given time to rebuild.

As for the players? PUSSY'S :agree:

Of course He's gonna come in and say we have a good squad Paloschi. He would be saying that to try and give the players confidence. Its what players these days, unfortunately, need to be told to massage there egos. The OP is pointing the finger at the wrong person, but he is the easy target. The dross Butcher has been left to work with is scary. As another poster said, lets get behind the manager, hope to **** he can pull a couole of wins out the bag, and then let him tear the place apart and start again, giving him a good few years to build us a team we can be proud of....

[Hibercelona]

You.can't judge a manager until he brings in his own players...

I don't agree with this. Butcher had to try and get the best out of what he's got right now and has failed badly in that department.

Him and his assistant are losing the dressing room and this is why we're in the position that we're in right now.

To say that a manager can't be judged until he brings his own players in, just isn't true at all. His management skills since arriving here have been very questionable.

[3pm]

I'd have him out now - but then I never wanted him. :agree:

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

I'd have him out now - but then I never wanted him. :agree:

:agree: Should have went for McInnes or McCall IMO.

[yekimevol]

great idea, get rid of the manager when we are involved in a fight to avoid the play offs. you should apply for petries job. thats a genius suggestion.

A different leader might bring in better ideas than long balls over the top to a lone striker that cannot hold the ball up, then have other players in the box for these crosses he talks about all the time. Butchers issues with KT needs to be settled as well that stack was on about last night, the team could barely keep possession of the ball for long periods of the match last night and he has KT on the bench a player that can pass the ball about (Think of the impact tevez has the season man city).


It also seem to work at other places - http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/05/17/to-save-yourself-from-relegation-history-says-sack-the-manager/

Also a new gaffer getting an idea of the mess of the team similar to what Mcinnes got a the dons.

[jeffers]

I don't agree with this. Butcher had to try and get the best out of what he's got right now and has failed badly in that department.

Him and his assistant are losing the dressing room and this is why we're in the position that we're in right now.

To say that a manager can't be judged until he brings his own players in, just isn't true at all. His management skills since arriving here have been very questionable.

Totally agree. If we avoid the drop then let's give him the chance to start afresh next season, but if we don't then he should do the right thing and resign. No doubt the squad he inherited was lacking, but I didn't hear how bad they were when we were on the decent run, now we are on this horrific run the players are back to being garbage. IMO they aren't great but they're not as bad as he has them performing. If he had them playing better earlier on why was that ?

And as for bringing in his own own players well he has brought in 3, but despite Steve Marsella's book containing 100s of players only one of them is arguably any better than what we had, while one doesn't even get a chance despite there being numerous changes to the team for every natch.

[Mikey09]

A different leader might bring in better ideas than long balls over the top to a lone striker that cannot hold the ball up, then have other players in the box for these crosses he talks about all the time. Butchers issues with KT needs to be settled as well that stack was on about last night, the team could barely keep possession of the ball for long periods of the match last night and he has KT on the bench a player that can pass the ball about (Think of the impact tevez has the season man city).


It also seem to work at other places - http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/05/17/to-save-yourself-from-relegation-history-says-sack-the-manager/

Also a new gaffer getting an idea of the mess of the team similar to what Mcinnes got a the dons.

OK. Sack him..... Who you gonna bring in??

[jeffers]

OK. Sack him..... Who you gonna bring in??

What's the name of that Irish manager, had a great record in his own country ? Pat someone......:wink:

[yekimevol]

OK. Sack him..... Who you gonna bring in??

Ian Murray, Mcleish, Jimmy Calderwood, Mowbray. I already know that people will slate Calderwoods name even being mentioned but he save killie and im my opinion has a better track record overall compared to butcher.

[yekimevol]

What's the name of that Irish manager, had a great record in his own country ? Pat someone......:wink:

Has a better record with us this season than butcher does but not my first choice by quite a few names :wink:

[leggeto]

You.can't judge a manager until he brings in his own players...

100% agree

[brian6-2]

A different leader might bring in better ideas than long balls over the top to a lone striker that cannot hold the ball up, then have other players in the box for these crosses he talks about all the time. Butchers issues with KT needs to be settled as well that stack was on about last night, the team could barely keep possession of the ball for long periods of the match last night and he has KT on the bench a player that can pass the ball about (Think of the impact tevez has the season man city).


It also seem to work at other places - http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/05/17/to-save-yourself-from-relegation-history-says-sack-the-manager/

Also a new gaffer getting an idea of the mess of the team similar to what Mcinnes got a the dons.

Mcinnes got time to build a squad. Butcher deserves that time too. 1 january transfer window after 8 weeks in the job is hardly enough to judge him on.

[TrinityHibs]

Mcinnes got time and money to build a squad. Butcher deserves that time too. 1 january transfer window after 8 weeks in the job is hardly enough to judge him on.

Fixed that for you

[Stevie Reid]

In our 8 home games this year, we are conceding an average of 2.5 goals per game.

[Paisley Hibby]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

There's no way he'll be sacked. However, if we get relegated then I would not be surprised if he walked. I've no sources to back that, just a hunch.:cb

[blackpoolhibs]

A question to those folk who say you can't judge a manager until he gets his own players in.

Can you judge 2 different managers who managed the same players?

[The Falcon]

I judged Mowbray before he brought in many players. Judged him as a good manager.



Celtic fans don't think he is.

[Jim44]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

Butcher shouldn't get off that easily. If we go down, I want him there to take full responsibility for his part in our downfall. :cb

[truehibernian]

Butcher shouldn't get off that easily. If we go down, I want him there to take full responsibility for his part in our downfall. :cb

I 100% agree Jim - what stuns me is the layout of the team and the simple surgery it needs. We have a centre half at right back, yet we have a right back in an U20's team that are top of the league and who could easily slot in and improve the side. Similarly we have a left back in McGivern who has lost his way and needs dropped - and we have a left back in Baptie who is a composed young lad who deserves a chance.

Lewis's best football this season has been under Butcher but at left midfied. He looked happy, dare I say offensive going forward and he looked like he was enjoying the role. Then he was shunted back.

Midfield - Thomson is by far the most experienced and composed on the ball. Any disagreements can be meated out at the end of the season in the form of a 'goodbye'. Right now we need all hands on deck and all good hands at that.

One striker up front when our manager is on record saying 'we hit a glass wall in the final third' and 'we lack cutting edge up front' - well in that case play two strikers capable of a partnership and capable of finding the net - Cummings clearly knows where it is as his 20s record shows, so give him a run of games FFS.

And why drop Watmore to the bench ? He's our last goalscorer, him and Harris were the only ones to create anything remotely called a chance at Tynie, and he wins free kicks - our main threat when it comes to scoring goals.

Butcher really really needs to look at his management and his selections - the tombola has now become ridiculous and the players are making a fool of him.

[green&left]

You.can't judge a manager until he brings in his own players...

He has had a transfer window mind, all signings (albeit loans) have been quite frankly pish.

I know they wouldn't have been his first choice but he did choose to sign and play a journey man upfront who can't get a game for Notts *** County.

I was delighted with Butcher but very very sceptical now. From last nights 89th minute sub, to Malpas telling a fan to **** off, right back to his dodgy substitutions at Tannidice when we chucked a 2 nil lead and everything in between...

[Paperboy]

Heard from an Aberdeen fan that Butcher allegedly had a run in with a Dons fan last night. No idea if it's true but he was saying that fists were raised allegedly?!

[southsider]

I don't agree with this. Butcher had to try and get the best out of what he's got right now and has failed badly in that department.

Him and his assistant are losing the dressing room and this is why we're in the position that we're in right now.

To say that a manager can't be judged until he brings his own players in, just isn't true at all. His management skills since arriving here have been very questionable.
Yes, mate you have nailed another falsehood. Butchers only tactic seems to be to lump a ball up to a forward (?), who rarely wins headers, cant hold the ball up or control it. We cant defend nor score goals and i would not trust him to bring in players good enough to play for Hibs. Mind you the board have to take there share of the blame. Leigh almost single handedly kept us up last season and we did not sign him when we had the chance (250,000 according to Craig Patterson). The club is, in my opinion rank from top to bottom and going to matches is absolute hell. If, and it is a mighty big if, we can beat Thistle and draw against Hear7s and Killie we might be safe.

[OsloHibs]

I don't agree with this. Butcher had to try and get the best out of what he's got right now and has failed badly in that department.

Him and his assistant are losing the dressing room and this is why we're in the position that we're in right now.

To say that a manager can't be judged until he brings his own players in, just isn't true at all. His management skills since arriving here have been very questionable.

agree.

[jakeshibs]

And it was only months ago we were all" Petrie get Butcher in" and" make it happen" and "why would Butcher want to come to us"? We have to all get behind the club.

well said that man

[greenlex]

For the first time in living memory Hi s have appointed a management team with a decent track record at the level we operate. Giving them 5 months to turn us round is complete madness. I think 4 or 5 years is required. Inverness did not play crap football. Inverness players do nit look as clueless and demotivated as our lot do. I know it's awful at the moment but they must be given time.

[Jones28]

**** off, sacked after 6 months? With one transfer window? Butcher will/must be given time

[eggbamyasi]

A question to those folk who say you can't judge a manager until he gets his own players in.

Can you judge 2 different managers who managed the same players?

No ! Because one had over a year and some with the base of the squad . Its pretty simple stuff tbh . Butcher took over a **** squad . Hes had five month if even that . And you mentalists want him sacked before hes even had a chance to build things . That is part of the problem over the last 7 years and does my nut in how so many dont see that !!!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Expecting Rain]

Sorry but this is a joke of a thread, player power off the field rather than on it seems to have been our biggest problem season after season.

[Leithenhibby]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

Yeah, that's a cracking plan....... :rolleyes:

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

I will back and support Butcher 100% until he shows me why I shouldn't with his own group of players next season. In Butcher I trust!

[Hibercelona]

For the first time in living memory Hi s have appointed a management team with a decent track record at the level we operate. Giving them 5 months to turn us round is complete madness. I think 4 or 5 years is required. Inverness did not play crap football. Inverness players do nit look as clueless and demotivated as our lot do. I know it's awful at the moment but they must be given time.

It doesn't take 4 or 5 years to turn a club like ours around in a league like this. There's no danger that fans will wait that long.

The only madness has been Butcher and Malpas's man management skills since arriving here. Instead of ripping into this lot, they should have been looking to keep things as steady as possible until the end of the season. Instead, they've created complete chaos in the dressing room, which has resulted in these players performing even more poorly than before, which could ultimately cost us our place in this league.

[One Day Soon]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over

Worst .net thread ever. Ever.

[PISTOL1875]

Kenny Shiels might not be everyone's cup of tea but there would be no chance we would ever see things like the players hoofing the ball forward at every opportunity . Everything would be on the carpet..

[Beefster]

Kenny Shiels might not be everyone's cup of tea but there would be no chance we would ever see things like the players hoofing the ball forward at every opportunity . Everything would be on the carpet..

How's playing on the carpet going at Morton?

[Northernhibee]

A question to those folk who say you can't judge a manager until he gets his own players in.

Can you judge 2 different managers who managed the same players?

No, for obvious reasons. Everyone has their own way of setting a team up and sign players to suit that.

[One Day Soon]

How's playing on the carpet going at Morton?


Well I think the terms '5hag' and 'pile' are being deployed there but not in the sense you might associate with carpets....

[Viva_Palmeiras]

How come TB & MM haven't kicked up a stink elsewhere?

[TornadoHibby]

You.can't judge a manager until he brings in his own players...

Nonsense! :rolleyes:

[Northernhibee]

Sorry but this is a joke of a thread, player power off the field rather than on it seems to have been our biggest problem season after season.

Butcher seems determined not to succumb to that, hence the stories of splits in the changing room and so forth.

We sack Butcher we may as well declare ourselves a Championship club for the next few seasons.

[TornadoHibby]

Tony Pulis turned palace round using somebody else's players

Exactly, excellent example of what can be done to improve players lacking direction and confidence! :agree:

[TornadoHibby]

They're not safe yet. Plus Pulis has been offered a million quid if he keeps them up. Palace have a better reserve team than hibs best 11. No comparison IMO.

Of course there is! :confused:

It's all relative to the two entirely different leagues in terms of finances and player quality! :agree:

[Stringer]

Is the op renting a plane to fly over Easter road. Butcher out!!

We need to stop changing managers. Butcher needs time to change the staffing structure of the club. If he is there long enough he will end up calling the shots on chairman/ football director appointments, like wenger at arsenal

[hibsbollah]

Scapegoat out, scapegoat in.

:agree:

Mixu Hughes Calderwood Fenlon Butcher.

[TornadoHibby]

I 100% agree Jim - what stuns me is the layout of the team and the simple surgery it needs. We have a centre half at right back, yet we have a right back in an U20's team that are top of the league and who could easily slot in and improve the side. Similarly we have a left back in McGivern who has lost his way and needs dropped - and we have a left back in Baptie who is a composed young lad who deserves a chance.

Lewis's best football this season has been under Butcher but at left midfied. He looked happy, dare I say offensive going forward and he looked like he was enjoying the role. Then he was shunted back.

Midfield - Thomson is by far the most experienced and composed on the ball. Any disagreements can be meated out at the end of the season in the form of a 'goodbye'. Right now we need all hands on deck and all good hands at that.

One striker up front when our manager is on record saying 'we hit a glass wall in the final third' and 'we lack cutting edge up front' - well in that case play two strikers capable of a partnership and capable of finding the net - Cummings clearly knows where it is as his 20s record shows, so give him a run of games FFS.

And why drop Watmore to the bench ? He's our last goalscorer, him and Harris were the only ones to create anything remotely called a chance at Tynie, and he wins free kicks - our main threat when it comes to scoring goals.

Butcher really really needs to look at his management and his selections - the tombola has now become ridiculous and the players are making a fool of him.

This! :top marks

[heretoday]

I appreciate TB is working with another guy's squad but what worries me is that he has been unable to inspire them at all. His brand of bluster is not working. God willing they can win one game at least and make us safe. We will have to give Terry the chance to build a new team in the summer and see how they are doing by November.

[Captain Trips]

No ! Because one had over a year and some with the base of the squad . Its pretty simple stuff tbh . Butcher took over a **** squad . Hes had five month if even that . And you mentalists want him sacked before hes even had a chance to build things . That is part of the problem over the last 7 years and does my nut in how so many dont see that !!!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

How is that the problem, no manager has had 5 months yes I wanted rid of PF after his first season as I saw\nothing to suggest giving him time would work. PF had a fair crack so the problem is sticking to managers whom are showing nothing. CC was a classic example.

I at this juncture regardless of who signed who or whos "team" it is I fully EXPECT a new manager after a short period of time ie 2/3 months or 10/15 games to have improved even a little, not come in and win everything but show us he is better than what we have or will look to be better. I have seen nothing from his team to suggest he is right, saying we cannot sack another manager isnt an excuse to keep a manager, telling me he actually has us playing a bit or results look ok. There is nothing other than we cant sack or change managers so soon.

[OsloHibs]

He just hasn't got the players on his side and he has totally alienated any spirit there was in the dressing room, and this is what I have a problem with. What's to say this won't happen again next season? What happens then?

[jeffers]

He just hasn't got the players on his side and he has totally alienated any spirit there was in the dressing room, and this is what I have a problem with. What's to say this won't happen again next season? What happens then?

You've clearly not been following Oslo. If that does happen that won't be his fault either, it will be because Petrie didn't allow him to sign his first choice players and he will have had to sign ones who are easily alienated instead.

[OsloHibs]

You've clearly not been following Oslo. If that does happen that won't be his fault either, it will be because Petrie didn't allow him to sign his first choice players and he will have had to sign ones who are easily alienated instead.

No, I have been following. I don't live on the moon you know! We'll agree to disagree, no probs :)

[eggbamyasi]

[/B]

How is that the problem, no manager has had 5 months yes I wanted rid of PF after his first season as I saw\nothing to suggest giving him time would work. PF had a fair crack so the problem is sticking to managers whom are showing nothing. CC was a classic example.

I at this juncture regardless of who signed who or whos "team" it is I fully EXPECT a new manager after a short period of time ie 2/3 months or 10/15 games to have improved even a little, not come in and win everything but show us he is better than what we have or will look to be better. I have seen nothing from his team to suggest he is right, saying we cannot sack another manager isnt an excuse to keep a manager, telling me he actually has us playing a bit or results look ok. There is nothing other than we cant sack or change managers so soon.

I said its PART of the problems .which it is . Changing our manager /hounding out manager too quickly . Its a common thing world wide . How can people not see the problems it causes unless you have a bottomless pit of money .?

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[HibeeHutch]

1: Brutal and ridiculous statement.

2: There seems to be a belief by some that we would have been safer if Fenlon was still in charge. I find this mind boggling given the abuse he received during his tenure and the way we played with HIS players. HIS players are still here...and still terrible.

3: Butcher will get things right given time and if the 'reactionaries' can stay off his back!

[judas]

12 managers in 11 years?

We have just spent, I would guess, £400k pa for a 3 year contract (?) getting the three of them in. Most supporters were completely in favour of Butcher. To sack them after 20 games at a cost of I don't know, perhaps a million pounds, is just not going to happen and it would not be justified. Hibs would become an even bigger laughing stock than they currently are.

What ever happens Butcher will lead Hibs next season, like it or not, so I suggest we support the guy and the team (hard as that might be given woeful performance after woeful performance)

Sure there are problems, but this is not his team, and while we have been very poor we have not had much luck. We have five games to turn this around and then prepare for hopefully a better season next year.

Spot on.

Now is the time to support and encourage our players and management.

[jeffers]

No, I have been following. I don't live on the moon you know! We'll agree to disagree, no probs :)

Sorry Oslo I was trying to be funny, wasn't having a go at you. I meant if you read some of the posts on here it's not TB's fault because they are not his players, and if he does get his own players and it still goes wrong that won't be his fault either it will be the "deep underlying problem" that exists at Hibs.

[Ronniekirk]

My one and only post on this thread. it's not going to happen , we couldn't afford to get rid of him ,and we are all looking forward to those hidden Gems with pace that Marsella was telling fans about when we drew up at Inverness.They are the Future .for him to go we would need to loose every game heavily ,not score another point go In to play offs and do same . but as Ian Murray was saying today Butcher has experience of brining relegated side straight back up so Petrie isn't going to do anything unless players go behind his back like they did with Collins Nd think he will have learnt his lesson from that episode .
So we are stuck with him for better or worse ,richer or poorer It's a Marriage made in a Heaven why would we seek a quickie divorce :wink:

[matty_f]

Sacking Butcher because the players don't like him would be infinitely worse than Petrie seeing the player delegation in '07 when he told them the manager was in charge.

If we want attitudes to change at Easter Road, then we're going to have to let the manager get his own way on this one and punt the dissenters.

[Northernhibee]

Sacking Butcher because the players don't like him would be infinitely worse than Petrie seeing the player delegation in '07 when he told them the manager was in charge.

If we want attitudes to change at Easter Road, then we're going to have to let the manager get his own way on this one and punt the dissenters.

:top marks

[Kaiser1962]

but as Ian Murray was saying today Butcher has experience of brining relegated side straight back up so Petrie isn't going to do anything unless players go behind his back like they did with Collins Nd think he will have learnt his lesson from that episode .
So we are stuck with him for better or worse ,richer or poorer It's a Marriage made in a Heaven why would we seek a quickie divorce :wink:

Why do people keep bringing up the Collins revolt as a stick to beat Petrie with? Petrie took direction from one of the foremost employment lawyers in the country so I don't get what he did wrong, on that occasion at least.

[Swedish hibee]

No, I have been following. I don't live on the moon you know! We'll agree to disagree, no probs :)

I don't know- Buskerud is far from the real word, haha!!!!-

[matty_f]

[/B]

How is that the problem, no manager has had 5 months yes I wanted rid of PF after his first season as I saw\nothing to suggest giving him time would work. PF had a fair crack so the problem is sticking to managers whom are showing nothing. CC was a classic example.

I at this juncture regardless of who signed who or whos "team" it is I fully EXPECT a new manager after a short period of time ie 2/3 months or 10/15 games to have improved even a little, not come in and win everything but show us he is better than what we have or will look to be better. I have seen nothing from his team to suggest he is right, saying we cannot sack another manager isnt an excuse to keep a manager, telling me he actually has us playing a bit or results look ok. There is nothing other than we cant sack or change managers so soon.

One of the big problems with the team is a complete lack of pace, for which Butcher cannot be held accountable and for which no amount of good coaching or man management will help in the period of time Butcher has had.

He has also had to deal with (as did Fenlon) injuries to key positions and to key players - Hanlon, Nelson, McGivern, Thomson, Robertson, Heffernan, Watmore, Harris, Cairney, OTJ, and probably a few more that I can't think of off the top of my head, has meant that he's having to shuffle the pack and patch up a team game to game.

I don't agree with every decision he's made, but even last night he had to change his plans at the very last minute with Heffernan getting injured in the warm-up. It's not even like it's one or two players that are injured, it's been loads.

McInnes pointed to the fact that he's been lucky in that he's been able to field a relatively settled team all season, the Yams have been the same, as have St Mirren, Partick, Dundee Utd, Celtc, Motherwell, and so on. We've been absolutely pumped with injuries this season. It's not an excuse but it has to be taken into consideration.

It's not like we're blessed with a squad that has a depth of quality replacements to come in for each position. We've not had a natural right back all season, for instance. Last night we played a left-back at centre-half. We've been without wingers for most of the season.

Clearly there is an issue with the players and manager at the moment and the team are not performing as they should be. Butcher, of course, has responsibility for this and if there is a breakdown in relations somewhere then he needs to address it asap.

However, it's unfair to expect a marked improvement of a squad that already had known deficiencies that has been depleted further.

Butcher needs to keep us up, and needs to be given time to build a squad in the summer before folk start calling for his head.

[Albion Hibs]

Struggling to believe this thread to be honest. TB is working with a team that is were it deserves to be based on the ability we have. Fenlon was just about relegated during his first season in charge then duly had us pumped in that cup final, yet with no track record in anything that resembles a proper league he was given plenty of support on this very fourm. TB has a track record of assembling successful teams in this league, he left one sitting in 2nd a couple of months ago, therefore we have no reason to think he won't do the same for us.

[Borderhibbie76]

I judged Mowbray before he brought in many players. Judged him as a good manager.

Im starting to worry about Butcher but that is a shocking comparison. ..mowbray inherited the golden generation...TB inherited fenlons flops. ..dearie me!!

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[Bleeds green]

I want Butcher out and Petrie out as well. Last night Butcher got his tactics wrong, team selection wrong and his subs wrong. On top of that he has alienated the players and has his assistant manager verbally abusing the support. We are heading for relegation with no real hope of a swift return to the premiership. So can't really think why we should keep him or Petrie.

Get a grip

[blackpoolhibs]

Sacking Butcher because the players don't like him would be infinitely worse than Petrie seeing the player delegation in '07 when he told them the manager was in charge.

If we want attitudes to change at Easter Road, then we're going to have to let the manager get his own way on this one and punt the dissenters.

I'm sorry Matty, but i thought these players had been punted, and Fenlon had changed the attitude of the sqaud? And as far as i can see there's only been 2 unhappy players, Caldwell who's been loaned out and Thomson, a player who the current management team seem hell bent on taking the piss out of, while taking us down a league at the same time.

The facts are butcher cant get the same results from the same players as Fenlon had, and that has been a combination of poor team selections, poor tactics and poor motivation.

He was brought in to make things better, they have got remarkably worse and theres only two men to blame and they sit on our management team.

[One Day Soon]

One of the big problems with the team is a complete lack of pace, for which Butcher cannot be held accountable and for which no amount of good coaching or man management will help in the period of time Butcher has had.

He has also had to deal with (as did Fenlon) injuries to key positions and to key players - Hanlon, Nelson, McGivern, Thomson, Robertson, Heffernan, Watmore, Harris, Cairney, OTJ, and probably a few more that I can't think of off the top of my head, has meant that he's having to shuffle the pack and patch up a team game to game.

I don't agree with every decision he's made, but even last night he had to change his plans at the very last minute with Heffernan getting injured in the warm-up. It's not even like it's one or two players that are injured, it's been loads.

McInnes pointed to the fact that he's been lucky in that he's been able to field a relatively settled team all season, the Yams have been the same, as have St Mirren, Partick, Dundee Utd, Celtc, Motherwell, and so on. We've been absolutely pumped with injuries this season. It's not an excuse but it has to be taken into consideration.

It's not like we're blessed with a squad that has a depth of quality replacements to come in for each position. We've not had a natural right back all season, for instance. Last night we played a left-back at centre-half. We've been without wingers for most of the season.

Clearly there is an issue with the players and manager at the moment and the team are not performing as they should be. Butcher, of course, has responsibility for this and if there is a breakdown in relations somewhere then he needs to address it asap.

However, it's unfair to expect a marked improvement of a squad that already had known deficiencies that has been depleted further.

Butcher needs to keep us up, and needs to be given time to build a squad in the summer before folk start calling for his head.


Matty, that's the definitive post on the subject. :top marks

[matty_f]

Matty, that's the definitive post on the subject. :top marks

Thank you! :greengrin

[Swedish hibee]

I'm sorry Matty, but i thought these players had been punted, and Fenlon had changed the attitude of the sqaud? And as far as i can see there's only been 2 unhappy players, Caldwell who's been loaned out and Thomson, a player who the current management team seem hell bent on taking the piss out of, while taking us down a league at the same time.

The facts are butcher cant get the same results from the same players as Fenlon had, and that has been a combination of poor team selections, poor tactics and poor motivation.

He was brought in to make things better, they have got remarkably worse and theres only two men to blame and they sit on our management team.

I never thought I'd agree with Blackpoolhibs... and I found myself agreeing with Mikey Stewart on tonight's podcast.. I'm away for a lie down- this is too much for me!

[Sammy7nil]

I'm sorry Matty, but i thought these players had been punted, and Fenlon had changed the attitude of the sqaud? And as far as i can see there's only been 2 unhappy players, Caldwell who's been loaned out and Thomson, a player who the current management team seem hell bent on taking the piss out of, while taking us down a league at the same time.

The facts are butcher cant get the same results from the same players as Fenlon had, and that has been a combination of poor team selections, poor tactics and poor motivation.

He was brought in to make things better, they have got remarkably worse and theres only two men to blame and they sit on our management team.

Can't argue with any of that

[Kaiserclem]

I am hearing tonight, from inside the dressing room, that Butcher & Malpas have 'lost' the players confidence with ranting and raving. Find it strange that guys with so much experience seem to be losing it. Sad times for us, come on guys let's get it together and strong heads required. Yes, players are poor but if we wanna stay up strong man management needed. Gutted at what I am hearing.

[fat freddy]

is that the best you can do?

[shagpile]

I am hearing tonight, from inside the dressing room, that Butcher & Malpas have 'lost' the players confidence with ranting and raving. Find it strange that guys with so much experience seem to be losing it. Sad times for us, come on guys let's get it together and strong heads required. Yes, players are poor but if we wanna stay up strong man management needed. Gutted at what I am hearing.

What are you doing in the dressing room at this time?

[Ronniekirk]

I am hearing tonight, from inside the dressing room, that Butcher & Malpas have 'lost' the players confidence with ranting and raving. Find it strange that guys with so much experience seem to be losing it. Sad times for us, come on guys let's get it together and strong heads required. Yes, players are poor but if we wanna stay up strong man management needed. Gutted at what I am hearing.
Chick young mentioned he was losing it at half and full Time in dressing room against Aberdeen so sounds like you could be right .Its clearly a management style that isn't working and agree somehow they need to clear the air and get back to what they were doing when they first came in But once the Genie is out the bottle it's hard to put it back in and in this instance we aren't getting our three wishes granted :wink:

[jdships]

I am hearing tonight, from inside the dressing room, that Butcher & Malpas have 'lost' the players confidence with ranting and raving. Find it strange that guys with so much experience seem to be losing it. Sad times for us, come on guys let's get it together and strong heads required. Yes, players are poor but if we wanna stay up strong man management needed. Gutted at what I am hearing.

Haven't heard a word from the folk connected with EM's , yesterday and today , ( includes rellies!)
Maybe it will be in the "Sun" tomorrow or have you been just hanging around " Greggs" ?

:na na:

[Viva_Palmeiras]

is that the best you can do?

The force is weak in this one...

[Viva_Palmeiras]

With allegations flying left right and centre all I want to know is...

who is the chief alligator!?

Moles out lions in!

[TornadoHibby]

Matty, that's the definitive post on the subject. :top marks

Your user name should be the Hibs motto since 2007 mate! :agree:

Always jam tomorrow and always plenty on here with their carefully thought out reasons why that is acceptable. :confused:

I think the stadium will be even more empty than it was last night next season, relegated or not! :agree:

TB's wiki profile doesn't suggest that he's not been in the current situation MORE than taking ICT into the top 6 without winning anything! :confused:

Hibs are in trouble, that's for sure and the currently uncertain thing is how long it's going to take to recover the 2006/7 standards! :confused:

[matty_f]

:confused:

[beensaidbefore]

This thread is a joke. Maybe its not the board, management, or players that is wrong with Hibs, maybe its the supporters? A deluded impatient bunch, with illusions of grandeur based on past (ahem) success.

In my life time I have enjoyed a few 'good' seasons, plenty mediocre, and even more pish poor. Given we have finished in the bottom six more times than the top, and not played passing expansive football since ...answers on a postcard...why should we get rid of a manager that has inherited one of the worst Hibs squads since the days of Lee Power and Paul Tosh.

We should have done it with yogi, mixu and collins, probably even sauzee. Given them bloody time to do something. We are crap, have been for years, and will be for years to come unless we get rid of this chip on our shoulder.

Get behind the team FFS

[TornadoHibby]

:confused:

:confused:

[Viva_Palmeiras]

In as much as I believe Butcher needs time I thought that he'd have done better with the (ahem) "players" at his disposal.

I mean I really is criminal that after coco another bunch of duds could be allowed to arrive en masse (is that what's really happened here?!) - DoF anyone?

I'd really hoped it was just a case of TB getting more outta them.

[The Falcon]

In as much as I believe Butcher needs time I thought that he'd have done better with the (ahem) "players" at his disposal.

I mean I really is criminal that after coco another bunch of duds could be allowed to arrive en masse (is that what's really happened here?!) - DoF anyone?

I'd really hoped it was just a case of TB getting more outta them.

I thought he's have done better as well but I dont see what a DoF would have done. Not given Butcher the job?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I thought he's have done better as well but I dont see what a DoF would have done. Not given Butcher the job?

Vetted players before signing them or at least ensuring some better kind of continuity across managerial change?

[jeffers]

This thread is a joke. Maybe its not the board, management, or players that is wrong with Hibs, maybe its the supporters? A deluded impatient bunch, with illusions of grandeur based on past (ahem) success.

In my life time I have enjoyed a few 'good' seasons, plenty mediocre, and even more pish poor. Given we have finished in the bottom six more times than the top, and not played passing expansive football since ...answers on a postcard...why should we get rid of a manager that has inherited one of the worst Hibs squads since the days of Lee Power and Paul Tosh.

We should have done it with yogi, mixu and collins, probably even sauzee. Given them bloody time to do something. We are crap, have been for years, and will be for years to come unless we get rid of this chip on our shoulder.

Get behind the team FFS
Absolute bollox. Given the utter garbage we have been subjected to for years we must be one of the most patient support of any team in Scotland. I don't know any Hibby who has unrealistic expectations of where we should be given the size of our club, our facilities, financial position and the overall strength of the top league in this country.

I've said it before TB shouldn't be sacked unless he gets us relegated, but under him it's looking like a distinct possibility. My concern with his appointment was that ICT was a good fit for him, a team with no real pressure or expectation other than to survive in the top flight. His record with almost every other club he has been with was garbage.

[Cropley10]

I am hearing tonight, from inside the dressing room, that Butcher & Malpas have 'lost' the players confidence with ranting and raving. Find it strange that guys with so much experience seem to be losing it. Sad times for us, come on guys let's get it together and strong heads required. Yes, players are poor but if we wanna stay up strong man management needed. Gutted at what I am hearing.

Sniff, sniff.

[#FromTheCapital]

So butcher is out, George street I assume?

[Sir David Gray]

Aye let's sack another manager.

Hey, we might even see another transitional period if we're lucky.

It's been a while since we last had one of those. :rolleyes:

If Butcher leaves any time soon and we don't see any changes at the top of the club, I'm done with going to games for the foreseeable future.

[beensaidbefore]

Absolute bollox. Given the utter garbage we have been subjected to for years we must be one of the most patient support of any team in Scotland. I don't know any Hibby who has unrealistic expectations of where we should be given the size of our club, our facilities, financial position and the overall strength of the top league in this country.

I've said it before TB shouldn't be sacked unless he gets us relegated, but under him it's looking like a distinct possibility. My concern with his appointment was that ICT was a good fit for him, a team with no real pressure or expectation other than to survive in the top flight. His record with almost every other club he has been with was garbage.


I'm alluding to the fact that we are not actually that big a club, and the years of garbage we have seen is actually our 'level'. Im afraid that the McLeish and Mobray times are as good as good as we can expect. We have a great looking stadium, with a crap atmosphere. A great training facility, with crap players. In my 33 years, I hibs have seen us in Europe through league qualification or cup winning about 6 or 7 times (No intertoto). We have won two cups in the last 40 years, we have been to maybe 10 cup finals in 30 years, so arguably should have won more if we are that 'big' a club.

chopping and changing over the last decade has contributed to the position we are in now. So I would prefer stability, and i would prefer that begins now with Butcher, with the supporters behind the management next season, and the one after if that's what it takes.

As a side issue, they need to do something about the empty seats to help the team. Free season tickets to all children under 5, with free season tickets to kids under 10 for a full paying adult. Every primary school given 5 tickets each week etc etc no point having the 3rd biggest stadium if we cant bloody fill the thing. No derby, no huns, apart from aberdeen only a few hundred away supporters each week....we need to do something to hide the boos ffs.:wink:

[The Falcon]

Vetted players before signing them or at least ensuring some better kind of continuity across managerial change?

Who would we blame? I suppose there's always still Rod right enough.

[GreenOnions]

I think fans' forums are great. You get all sorts of ridiculous suggestions on them. Sacking Terry Butcher is right up there with the most insane ones.

[edinburghhibee]

This is embarrassing!! Folk want butcher sacked already??? Like I've said already I have 100% faith that TB & MM will turn us around and have us challenging for European positions not next season but the season after. He plays a certain system and this bunch of losers can't play it or won't try. Let's wait until he gets his players in and we will see an improvement!

[beensaidbefore]

This is embarrassing!! Folk want butcher sacked already??? Like I've said already I have 100% faith that TB & MM will turn us around and have us challenging for European positions not next season but the season after. He plays a certain system and this bunch of losers can't play it or won't try. Let's wait until he gets his players in and we will see an improvement!


Exactly. Let them BUILD a team. That takes time, not one season, let alone 3 loan signings!

[LancsHibs]

This is embarrassing!! Folk want butcher sacked already??? Like I've said already I have 100% faith that TB & MM will turn us around and have us challenging for European positions not next season but the season after. He plays a certain system and this bunch of losers can't play it or won't try. Let's wait until he gets his players in and we will see an improvement!

It has to said though that so far it has been hugely disappointing, TB has somehow got us playing worse, which I thought an impossibility:confused:

[Eyrie]

Vetted players before signing them or at least ensuring some better kind of continuity across managerial change?

The former is a bad idea - the first team squad has to be the manager's responsibility.

The latter though has merit if we decide on a long term strategy (five year plan, anyone?) whereby we bring in kids and develop them to play in a set philosophy which continues through all age groups including the u20s and the first team. We then get the continuity by appointing a manager in tune with that philosophy so that he inherits a core of players who suit his style of play. As it is we're waiting for the summer so that Butcher can gut the squad and bring in players with the stamina and pace to play his system.

[One Day Soon]

I am hearing tonight, from inside the dressing room, that Butcher & Malpas have 'lost' the players confidence with ranting and raving. Find it strange that guys with so much experience seem to be losing it. Sad times for us, come on guys let's get it together and strong heads required. Yes, players are poor but if we wanna stay up strong man management needed. Gutted at what I am hearing.

Sniff, sniff, sniffetty, SNIFF, SNIFF, SNIFF. And did I mention sniff, sniff?

[Hibee Ryan]

Really don't get the attitude of the players. IF it's true that TB has told how ever many players that they won't be here next season you'd think they'd want to put themselves in the shop window? Who is going to want to sign any of these guys on the back of this season? Or maybe a bit of self-pride? Jesus if I'm at fives I get angry even if I dislike my team mates I'll still try my best...

Clearly TB and MM haven't managed this situation correctly and I'm sure they know but these players haven't been good enough at any point this season and that's down to them as individuals.

I agree with the basic principle of TB in that I don't want the majority of the squad to be here and would only be sad about losing Harris, Stanton, Hanlon and Stevenson. That's a bad place to be in and as players, coaching staff, Rod and the fans (to a much lesser extent), we all need to do better to create a positive atmosphere so everyone can enjoy matchdays because I really don't currently

[TornadoHibby]

This is embarrassing!! Folk want butcher sacked already??? Like I've said already I have 100% faith that TB & MM will turn us around and have us challenging for European positions not next season but the season after. He plays a certain system and this bunch of losers can't play it or won't try. Let's wait until he gets his players in and we will see an improvement!

And your evidence for your solid belief is...........?

Sorry Terry but you can't post on here!! :greengrin

[TornadoHibby]

Really don't get the attitude of the players. IF it's true that TB has told how ever many players that they won't be here next season you'd think they'd want to put themselves in the shop window? Who is going to want to sign any of these guys on the back of this season? Or maybe a bit of self-pride? Jesus if I'm at fives I get angry even if I dislike my team mates I'll still try my best...

Clearly TB and MM haven't managed this situation correctly and I'm sure they know but these players haven't been good enough at any point this season and that's down to them as individuals.

I agree with the basic principle of TB in that I don't want the majority of the squad to be here and would only be sad about losing Harris, Stanton, Hanlon and Stevenson. That's a bad place to be in and as players, coaching staff, Rod and the fans (to a much lesser extent), we all need to do better to create a positive atmosphere so everyone can enjoy matchdays because I really don't currently

It's really quite simple!

If the players entertain the fans everybody is happy!

If they don't, everyone thinks they are SAF and pumps out often ill thought out nonsense why "if will still all come good"!

Sometimes radical surgery is required to reduce/remove the effects of difficult to resolve issues for the benefit of the club! That's where we are now especially if we can't reverse the serious decline in team and individual player performances over the past 14 or 15 games starting a week on Saturday in Paisley!

[jeffers]

I'm alluding to the fact that we are not actually that big a club, and the years of garbage we have seen is actually our 'level'. Im afraid that the McLeish and Mobray times are as good as good as we can expect. We have a great looking stadium, with a crap atmosphere. A great training facility, with crap players. In my 33 years, I hibs have seen us in Europe through league qualification or cup winning about 6 or 7 times (No intertoto). We have won two cups in the last 40 years, we have been to maybe 10 cup finals in 30 years, so arguably should have won more if we are that 'big' a club.

chopping and changing over the last decade has contributed to the position we are in now. So I would prefer stability, and i would prefer that begins now with Butcher, with the supporters behind the management next season, and the one after if that's what it takes.

As a side issue, they need to do something about the empty seats to help the team. Free season tickets to all children under 5, with free season tickets to kids under 10 for a full paying adult. Every primary school given 5 tickets each week etc etc no point having the 3rd biggest stadium if we cant bloody fill the thing. No derby, no huns, apart from aberdeen only a few hundred away supporters each week....we need to do something to hide the boos ffs.:wink:
I don't agree, but it's a fair response well put.

Just because we've been **** for years doesn't mean we should accept that as our natural place in Scottish football. There are no Huns, Hearts are a basket case, we have the best stadium and training centre only bettered by the OF.

I'm not calling for Butcher's sacking unless he relegates us, but the signs so far in the 5 months he has been here are not filling me with confidence. It has been done to death but whatever the reasons he has taken a poor squad and made it worse. For all his "success" at ICT, he's had more failures - maybe Hibs will be another Brentford or Sydney he can add to his CV.

[Hibrandenburg]

A question to those folk who say you can't judge a manager until he gets his own players in.

Can you judge 2 different managers who managed the same players?

No because it would be like judging two players who share the same boots. The boots are size 8 and belong to Fenlon, Butcher is size 12 and shouldn't be judged until he gets his own boots. I just hope he doesn't **** up his feet in the mean time.

[Captain Trips]

I said its PART of the problems .which it is . Changing our manager /hounding out manager too quickly . Its a common thing world wide . How can people not see the problems it causes unless you have a bottomless pit of money .?

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Again it isnt part or even the problem we have never sacked a manager after 5mths in recent times except for Sauzee. What manager did we change to quickly? I think they all have been given a very fair chance to do something. So should we have stuck with CC longer then? or PF longer? Who was hounded out to quickly? After 5/6 months I wanted PF out but there was no hounding, I was in a very small minority certainly on here. The only manager I can remember getting it fairly tight from a decent sized amount of people was CC and that was 100% corrrect.

Our problem not part but fully is hiring the wrong guy from day 1 and sticking with it when indicators show zero. The only argument in his favour is we cant change a manager so soon absolutley nothing about his ability or how he has us playing. He has players who had won games he should have at least improved them in some manner why is that to much to ask in 5/6 months that he makes us slightly better?

[J-C]

On Sportsound last night Michael Stewart was speaking about TB and said he seen it going 2 ways, either he'd be a big hit or it would be a complete disaster, he also said Butcher mentioned this himself. So what we have here is a manager who has a certain way of working, sometimes it works and sometimes not, is that what we should be hoping for at Hibs, sign a manager and fingers crossed it all works out ok. Also mentioned was the fact that in Inverness, TB and MM had a cushy wee life up there, off peoples radar and not too much expectation, also mentioned that TB's particular brand of long ball into corners was not everyone's cup of tea but works well only if you have the right players to do it.

So we've taken a huge gamble here on these 2, a gamble which now looks to be going the wrong way, he's trying to play a certain way but doesn't have the personnel, so instead of playing to their strengths and seeing out the season till he gets his own players, he's managed to alienate almost all the players with his tactics/management skills (lack of). I wasn't one of the many who wanted him here as I didn't like his footballing philosophies but I'd always give him my backing at first, I can only see this ending badly unless we get someone in asap to steady the ship or we could see ourselves in the championship for a good 3-4 years.

[gorgie greens]

FFS guys ,we all want success changing manager every 6 months is doing nothing good at all,sooner the season ends and TB can get rid of the ***** he has got there the better,we knew he needed time when he came so let's give him some

[blackpoolhibs]

No because it would be like judging two players who share the same boots. The boots are size 8 and belong to Fenlon, Butcher is size 12 and shouldn't be judged until he gets his own boots. I just hope he doesn't **** up his feet in the mean time.

Thats just nonsence, folk can throw out as many cliches as they like, but under Butcher we are horrendously worse than under a poor Fenlon, with the same players.

Thats nowt to do with wearing the same boots, or pissing with the same cock. Its a bloody football team, playing the same sides with the same player. They were motivated and selected to play tactically different under one manager than the other.

One gets better results than the other.

[Captain Trips]

FFS guys ,we all want success changing manager every 6 months is doing nothing good at all,sooner the season ends and TB can get rid of the ***** he has got there the better,we knew he needed time when he came so let's give him some

Can you tell me when this occurred apart from Sauzee? So that bit in bold is just simply wrong. our last 3 managers had:

John Hughes 54 games over a full seasons worth of games.
Colin calderwood 49 games.
Pat Fenlon 87 games.

It appears giving managers time that are not fit for purpose is the problem and IMO both PF and CC after 5/6 months showed little promise of doing a job. The problem is appointing the wrong man then not acting on it early enough we actually do the opposite of what you said. For record I thought Hughes sacking the least correct of the three.

[Captain Trips]

Thats just nonsence, folk can throw out as many cliches as they like, but under Butcher we are horrendously worse than under a poor Fenlon, with the same players.

Thats nowt to do with wearing the same boots, or pissing with the same cock. Its a bloody football team, playing the same sides with the same player. They were motivated and selected to play tactically different under one manager than the other.

One gets better results than the other.

Indeed these excuses were made for PF that it was Calderwoods players. I have seen nothing not a thing that suggest he is better than Calderwood/Fenlon and I expect even slight improvement.

[Keith_M]

T*ts Out!



12399

[(((Fergus)))]

Let's get him then. All we need is Rod to sanction his £100k a week wages.
Job Done. Can't wait till he gets here.

Pulis turned around that team against managers on similar or higher wages.

The principal though is valid: a good manager should have the flexibility and creativity to manage the resources he already has - especially at a club where first and second choice signings are hard to come by, and especially where failure to adapt your system(s) to those resources will get you sacked before you have a time to find the players for your preferred system.

[J-C]

I remember hearing an interview with Gordon Strachan shortly after getting the Scotland gig, he said his time at Middlesborough was a disaster because he attempted to play the players he inherited into a certain system instead of looking at their individual strengths and playing to that, a lesson he says taught him a lot. Butcher needs to do the same thing, forget about how he wants play and allow the players the freedom to play to their own individual skills, occasionally we've seen little glimpses of that but then after a bollocking from the dug out by MM, they quickly revert back to the hoof into the corners :confused:

[Keith_M]

I remember hearing an interview with Gordon Strachan shortly after getting the Scotland gig, he said his time at Middlesborough was a disaster because he attempted to play the players he inherited into a certain system instead of looking at their individual strengths and playing to that, a lesson he says taught him a lot. Butcher needs to do the same thing, forget about how he wants play and allow the players the freedom to play to their own individual skills, occasionally we've seen little glimpses of that but then after a bollocking from the dug out by MM, they quickly revert back to the hoof into the corners :confused:


Malpas Out - Strachan In!

[LancsHibs]

T*ts Out!



12399

Ha ha a welcome distraction to lighten the mood on here:greengrin.......... Now what was it we were saying about Butcher??

[Keith_M]

Ha ha a welcome distraction to lighten the mood on here:greengrin.......... Now what was it we were saying about Butcher??


Does it matter?


:wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Thats just nonsence, folk can throw out as many cliches as they like, but under Butcher we are horrendously worse than under a poor Fenlon, with the same players.

Thats nowt to do with wearing the same boots, or pissing with the same cock. Its a bloody football team, playing the same sides with the same player. They were motivated and selected to play tactically different under one manager than the other.

One gets better results than the other.

So you've already ruled out giving Butcher the chance to bring in the type of player he wants to play the game the way he wants it played. You wanted Fenlon out asap, you got your wish but it was always apparent to anyone who could think further than 3 moves on a chess board (no apologies for more abstract thinking) that whoever replaced him would struggle to get that team playing any other style than that what Fenlon recruited and trained them to do.

Here's another cliche just for you, "Be careful what you wish for".

[blackpoolhibs]

So you've already ruled out giving Butcher the chance to bring in the type of player he wants to play the game the way he wants it played. You wanted Fenlon out asap, you got your wish but it was always apparent to anyone who could think further than 3 moves on a chess board (no apologies for more abstract thinking) that whoever replaced him would struggle to get that team playing any other style than that what Fenlon recruited and trained them to do.

Here's another cliche just for you, "Be careful what you wish for".

I want our team to stay in the SPFL, i want our team to entertain me. I want our team to punch its weight, when the guy who's in charge of the day to day running of these things is harming those ambitions, he's not the guy i want to be in charge.

Butcher was brought in to make things better, he's made them remarkably worse. And thats a direct result of his management, not the players not Petrie, not the fans. Its his tactics, his team selections and his motivational skills. :faf: John Hughes was hounded out because he was supposed to be a bully, we now have two of them in the dugout now.

[Hibrandenburg]

I want our team to stay in the SPFL, i want our team to entertain me. I want our team to punch its weight, when the guy who's in charge of the day to day running of these things is harming those ambitions, he's not the guy i want to be in charge.

Butcher was brought in to make things better, he's made them remarkably worse. And thats a direct result of his management, not the players not Petrie, not the fans. Its his tactics, his team selections and his motivational skills. :faf: John Hughes was hounded out because he was supposed to be a bully, we now have two of them in the dugout now.

Your great at highlighting what's already apparent to everyone. Do you seriously believe that launching Butcher 5 games before the end of the season is the answer? Your defence of Hughes is also laughable when you judge him using your own standards, he's got a team that was playing great under Butcher performing exceedingly mediocre. :faf:

[eggbamyasi]

Again it isnt part or even the problem we have never sacked a manager after 5mths in recent times except for Sauzee. What manager did we change to quickly? I think they all have been given a very fair chance to do something. So should we have stuck with CC longer then? or PF longer? Who was hounded out to quickly? After 5/6 months I wanted PF out but there was no hounding, I was in a very small minority certainly on here. The only manager I can remember getting it fairly tight from a decent sized amount of people was CC and that was 100% corrrect.

Our problem not part but fully is hiring the wrong guy from day 1 and sticking with it when indicators show zero. The only argument in his favour is we cant change a manager so soon absolutley nothing about his ability or how he has us playing. He has players who had won games he should have at least improved them in some manner why is that to much to ask in 5/6 months that he makes us slightly better?

Your taking the 5/6 months I said as what I meant for all managers .I think mixu and hughes possibly fenlon were not given enough time and sauzee (but that was boards fault) . I think they were eventually hounded out by fan pressure . You say they were all given a very fair chance ? I guess we see that differently . Fenlon was given the longest and tbh he was pressured from end of last season right through till he left . Im not saying he would of been amazing , but I am saying we dont give our managers the amount of time we need to with out hounding and pressure from large sections of the fans . Unless there utterly utterly **** calderwood . Its a diff of opinion I guess . But I think a manager should be given his full contract and full support from fan as long as hes there . Unless he is utterly utterly **** like calderwood . I beleive managers hughes , mixu etc need time with a club like hibs .where we have good patches and we have rubbish patches but given time able to build a stronger base of a team , squad solidarity. not as soon as we have a bad result or a string of bad results go . Get him out sack him , imo I think its wrong . And part of the reason we have such low morale a disjointed squad and no harmony at club . were doing it again with butcher . He did actually lift the team when he came in . His first couple of months were good up till hearts game and dundee utd . But imo he was always gonna struggle with this team . Morale . Squad not been togther long . Change of manager . Some of the new signings just not good enough .and some players not liking his training or tactics . Its too early to be shouting for him to be sacked . Theres so many factors involved tbh . Ah **** knows . Just dont think he should be sacked. Think he should get his 3 yr contract then see where we are . Every chance he could build a strong team for future . Really beleive there is .

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[Cropley10]

On Sportsound last night Michael Stewart was speaking about TB and said he seen it going 2 ways, either he'd be a big hit or it would be a complete disaster, he also said Butcher mentioned this himself. So what we have here is a manager who has a certain way of working, sometimes it works and sometimes not, is that what we should be hoping for at Hibs, sign a manager and fingers crossed it all works out ok. Also mentioned was the fact that in Inverness, TB and MM had a cushy wee life up there, off peoples radar and not too much expectation, also mentioned that TB's particular brand of long ball into corners was not everyone's cup of tea but works well only if you have the right players to do it.

So we've taken a huge gamble here on these 2, a gamble which now looks to be going the wrong way, he's trying to play a certain way but doesn't have the personnel, so instead of playing to their strengths and seeing out the season till he gets his own players, he's managed to alienate almost all the players with his tactics/management skills (lack of). I wasn't one of the many who wanted him here as I didn't like his footballing philosophies but I'd always give him my backing at first, I can only see this ending badly unless we get someone in asap to steady the ship or we could see ourselves in the championship for a good 3-4 years.

Mikey Stewart is a semi-educated Jambo who can barely offer Hibs anything approaching a compliment even when things are going half decent.

There's a Jsmbo clique who take it in turns to bash Hibs.

Folk need to understand that every manager we've had since Collins has been through precisely this sort of poor run.

However this is a terrible group of players and Williams Stanton & Harris aside I don't think there's any player another team in this Division would take.

Things will get better.

[blackpoolhibs]

Your great at highlighting what's already apparent to everyone. Do you seriously believe that launching Butcher 5 games before the end of the season is the answer? Your defence of Hughes is also laughable when you judge him using your own standards, he's got a team that was playing great under Butcher performing exceedingly mediocre. :faf:

If i had a child that kept banging its head against the wall, i'd stop him doing it.

Butcher was brought in to make us better. THE FACTS ARE, he's made us considerably worse. And that is a direct result of his management, his bullying and his fantastic motivational skills.

The point i made about Hughes is right, one of the problems he was supposed to have was he was a bully. well whoopee dee, we have two of them now, whose football philosophy is to punt it long pretty much like Fenlon but a little quicker.

They also will not keep a settled side, play players who are in form and are taking us down.

Too ****in right i want him out.

[Captain Trips]

Your taking the 5/6 months I said as what I meant for all managers .I think mixu and hughes possibly fenlon were not given enough time and sauzee (but that was boards fault) . I think they were eventually hounded out by fan pressure . You say they were all given a very fair chance ? I guess we see that differently . Fenlon was given the longest and tbh he was pressured from end of last season right through till he left . Im not saying he would of been amazing , but I am saying we dont give our managers the amount of time we need to with out hounding and pressure from large sections of the fans . Unless there utterly utterly **** calderwood . Its a diff of opinion I guess . But I think a manager should be given his full contract and full support from fan as long as hes there . Unless he is utterly utterly **** like calderwood . I beleive managers hughes , mixu etc need time with a club like hibs .where we have good patches and we have rubbish patches but given time able to build a stronger base of a team , squad solidarity. not as soon as we have a bad result or a string of bad results go . Get him out sack him , imo I think its wrong . And part of the reason we have such low morale a disjointed squad and no harmony at club . were doing it again with butcher . He did actually lift the team when he came in . His first couple of months were good up till hearts game and dundee utd . But imo he was always gonna struggle with this team . Morale . Squad not been togther long . Change of manager . Some of the new signings just not good enough .and some players not liking his training or tactics . Its too early to be shouting for him to be sacked . Theres so many factors involved tbh . Ah **** knows . Just dont think he should be sacked. Think he should get his 3 yr contract then see where we are . Every chance he could build a strong team for future . Really beleive there is .

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Giving a manager a 3yr contract isnt a challenge to have us doing well on the last day of that deal it is to progress up until that point at a decent rate. Fenlon did not look capable of this after a good amount of time we were still average at best. So are you suggesting as it looks from last part of your point we give him 3 years regardless of what goes on during that and on day 1095 we decide if he should stay? But if you think not fit like CC then it is ok to get rid and not see what he can do with contract? Maybe myself and some others feel like you did then with CC like I do now a bit with TB?

By year 3 he should be consolodating from year 2 not then be ready to do well at year 3.

[edinburghhibee]

And your evidence for your solid belief is...........? Sorry Terry but you can't post on here!! :greengrin

My evidence is his last time at ICT. He was close to relegation in the first season then got his players on board and got them playing great entertaining football and were beating us regularly.

[eggbamyasi]

Giving a manager a 3yr contract isnt a challenge to have us doing well on the last day of that deal it is to progress up until that point at a decent rate. Fenlon did not look capable of this after a good amount of time we were still average at best. So are you suggesting as it looks from last part of your point we give him 3 years regardless of what goes on during that and on day 1095 we decide if he should stay?

By year 3 he should be consolodating from year 2 not then be ready to do well at year 3.

Nope . Not saying that at all . Im saying give him a full season at very least . To build his own team . instill his philosophy and his work rate mentality etc. Instead of judging him so early on someone else squad .

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[jakeshibs]

Your taking the 5/6 months I said as what I meant for all managers .I think mixu and hughes possibly fenlon were not given enough time and sauzee (but that was boards fault) . I think they were eventually hounded out by fan pressure . You say they were all given a very fair chance ? I guess we see that differently . Fenlon was given the longest and tbh he was pressured from end of last season right through till he left . Im not saying he would of been amazing , but I am saying we dont give our managers the amount of time we need to with out hounding and pressure from large sections of the fans . Unless there utterly utterly **** calderwood . Its a diff of opinion I guess . But I think a manager should be given his full contract and full support from fan as long as hes there . Unless he is utterly utterly **** like calderwood . I beleive managers hughes , mixu etc need time with a club like hibs .where we have good patches and we have rubbish patches but given time able to build a stronger base of a team , squad solidarity. not as soon as we have a bad result or a string of bad results go . Get him out sack him , imo I think its wrong . And part of the reason we have such low morale a disjointed squad and no harmony at club . were doing it again with butcher . He did actually lift the team when he came in . His first couple of months were good up till hearts game and dundee utd . But imo he was always gonna struggle with this team . Morale . Squad not been togther long . Change of manager . Some of the new signings just not good enough .and some players not liking his training or tactics . Its too early to be shouting for him to be sacked . Theres so many factors involved tbh . Ah **** knows . Just dont think he should be sacked. Think he should get his 3 yr contract then see where we are . Every chance he could build a strong team for future . Really beleive there is .

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I am with you lets have a bit stability for a few years let support the manager, I still have faith in TB, that we will turn things around but we need to survive and stay in SPFL, next season I expect better (again)

[Captain Trips]

Nope . Not saying that at all . Im saying give him a full season at very least . To build his own team . instill his philosophy and his work rate mentality etc. Instead of judging him so early on someone else squad .

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Lets give him his full contract is exactly saying that, giving him a full season and if not fit that is ok then? You have eluded to giving a manger his full contract on afew occasions he should get his full contact providing that during that he is doing well. TB is judged on what he is doing and based on that you can at least say ok he is doing x so perhaps next season he will be doing y or z.

Judged now after a fair few games I am not impressed and see nothing at all to project he is capable of better.

[MrSmith]

We will continue to be a joke if we continue to sack managers at the drop of a hat! We need stability and a joined up approach to running the team, performance related pay and discipline are key in this!

example:

wan't to go to George Street to get pished? You're a professional footballer! You'll not play in the next game and been fined one weeks wages!

very brief ambiguous example I know but things have to change in this respect especially toward player being professional and playing for our club!

[Eternal Hibbie]

You.can't judge a manager until he brings in his own players...

Yeah, and unfortunately the three he brought in during the January transfer window haven't exactly set the heather on fire have they ? :(

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[eggbamyasi]

Lets give him his full contract is exactly saying that, giving him a full season and if not fit that is ok then? You have eluded to giving a manger his full contract on afew occasions he should get his full contact providing that during that he is doing well. TB is judged on what he is doing and based on that you can at least say ok he is doing x so perhaps next season he will be doing y or z.

Judged now after a fair few games I am not impressed and see nothing at all to project he is capable of better.

Nope . I said at VERY LEAST one full season . Your the one who is pretty much saying get rid after 5 months .im saying thats a bad idea . unless it is exceptional situation jim duffy for example .as far as I can see your also saying you take no circumstances into consideration at all ? You see it as black and white . Manager comes in if results not good enough straight away, eg : 5 months . Get rid and bring in a new guy . Rinse and repeat over again until we get a guy who wins enough for you not to think he should go ? You think thats a recipe for success ? You think thats a good way too build a strong foundation of a club that can be successful for years to come .

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[Captain Trips]

Nope . I said at VERY LEAST one full season . Your the one who is pretty much saying get rid after 5 months .im saying thats a bad idea . unless it is exceptional situation jim duffy for example .as far as I can see your also saying you take no circumstances into consideration at all ? You see it as black and white . Manager comes in if results not good enough straight away, eg : 5 months . Get rid and bring in a new guy . Rinse and repeat over again until we get a guy who wins enough for you not to think he should go ? You think thats a recipe for success ? You think thats a good way too build a strong foundation of a club that can be successful for years to come .

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What is the recipe for success then? we havent done what I have suggest thus far and sack a manager early on we have though certainly in Fenlons case given them what 2 years so it is keeping managers to long that would appear to be issue would it not? Nobody has been sacked early doors Pat Fenlon was here for what about 2 years so we have basically been doing what you suggest we need to do and it has failed because the manager was not good enough from Day 1.

Time has to be earned IMO I like to see promise or something. I take all things and the situation he walked into into consideration of course I do and for me that situation was one to improve even by a slight margin now. You cannot say sacking a manager after 5 months will not work as we havent done it I can say keeping a guy 2 yrs hoping it gets better doesnt work as we HAVE done it.

Here is the recipe hire the right manager and when you have failed to do that on at least 2 occasions you call it a day. Giving somebody who cant do job more time is a waste of time. TB might do a job but he has shown me nothing to suggest otherwise.

[Speedway]

My evidence is his last time at ICT. He was close to relegation in the first season then got his players on board and got them playing great entertaining football and were beating us regularly.

Jock Stein (Pat Butcher) was appointed manager of Hibernian in March 1964 (November 2013). When Stein was appointed, Hibs were struggling against relegation during the 1963–64 (2013-2014) season.

Stein built his defence around John McNamee (Jordan Forster), who had been discarded by Celtic, and Pat Stanton (Paul Hanlon). In midfield he had Pat Quinn (Liam Craig) and Willie Hamilton, (Scott Robertson) who were talented players but had under-achieved.

Stein led Hibs to victory in the Summer Cup, their first trophy in ten years. The 1964–65 league season started with an Edinburgh derby defeat by Hearts, but Hibs managed to recover from this setback. Stein then invited Real Madrid for a friendly game in Edinburgh, which Hibernian won 2–0 in front of a crowd of 32,000, further boosting his prestige.

I didn't want Butcher, really didn't want him but he'll sort this out given the summer.

Anyone who disagrees with me is a maroon coloured kn*b.

[eggbamyasi]

You think sack him . I think dont . I see promise . You dont . I guess we will see whos right in next few seasons .............

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[Expecting Rain]

Butcher seems determined not to succumb to that, hence the stories of splits in the changing room and so forth.

We sack Butcher we may as well declare ourselves a Championship club for the next few seasons.

Agree 100%

[edinburghhibee]

Jock Stein (Pat Butcher) was appointed manager of Hibernian in March 1964 (November 2013). When Stein was appointed, Hibs were struggling against relegation during the 1963–64 (2013-2014) season. Stein built his defence around John McNamee (Jordan Forster), who had been discarded by Celtic, and Pat Stanton (Paul Hanlon). In midfield he had Pat Quinn (Liam Craig) and Willie Hamilton, (Scott Robertson) who were talented players but had under-achieved. Stein led Hibs to victory in the Summer Cup, their first trophy in ten years. The 1964–65 league season started with an Edinburgh derby defeat by Hearts, but Hibs managed to recover from this setback. Stein then invited Real Madrid for a friendly game in Edinburgh, which Hibernian won 2–0 in front of a crowd of 32,000, further boosting his prestige. I didn't want Butcher, really didn't want him but he'll sort this out given the summer. Anyone who disagrees with me is a maroon coloured kn*b.

Agree 100% with your last line :D and the rest proves my point, but the last points important!!

[jeffers]

I'd be interested to hear what those who are saying stick by him/he'll get it right think if he ends up getting us relegated. Stick by him anyway ? It wasn't his fault, look what he did at ICT ?

[Captain Trips]

Jock Stein (Pat Butcher) was appointed manager of Hibernian in March 1964 (November 2013). When Stein was appointed, Hibs were struggling against relegation during the 1963–64 (2013-2014) season.

Stein built his defence around John McNamee (Jordan Forster), who had been discarded by Celtic, and Pat Stanton (Paul Hanlon). In midfield he had Pat Quinn (Liam Craig) and Willie Hamilton, (Scott Robertson) who were talented players but had under-achieved.

Stein led Hibs to victory in the Summer Cup, their first trophy in ten years. The 1964–65 league season started with an Edinburgh derby defeat by Hearts, but Hibs managed to recover from this setback. Stein then invited Real Madrid for a friendly game in Edinburgh, which Hibernian won 2–0 in front of a crowd of 32,000, further boosting his prestige.

I didn't want Butcher, really didn't want him but he'll sort this out given the summer.

Anyone who disagrees with me is a maroon coloured kn*b.

Yes and by game 20 under his tenure he had won 13 matches therefore suggesting that even a poor side if the guy is right can be sorted maybe not to that such great effect but sorted a bit better than now. JS record from day 1 was excellent so it is a totally different case.

[jakeshibs]

I'd be interested to hear what those who are saying stick by him/he'll get it right think if he ends up getting us relegated. Stick by him anyway ? It wasn't his fault, look what he did at ICT ?

so who would you get in that could guarantee us to survive?

[jeffers]

so who would you get in that could guarantee us to survive?

That's not what I'm saying. I've already posted on this thread I would give him the chance to sign his own players in the summer but not if he gets us relegated, if that were to happen I'd sack him on the spot. I'm asking those that are fully behind would they still feel he should be allowed to stay if we go down ?

[Mikey09]

If i had a child that kept banging its head against the wall, i'd stop him doing it.

Butcher was brought in to make us better. THE FACTS ARE, he's made us considerably worse. And that is a direct result of his management, his bullying and his fantastic motivational skills.

The point i made about Hughes is right, one of the problems he was supposed to have was he was a bully. well whoopee dee, we have two of them now, whose football philosophy is to punt it long pretty much like Fenlon but a little quicker.

They also will not keep a settled side, play players who are in form and are taking us down.

Too ****in right i want him out.


Is this a wind up?? Maybe I'm wrong and you've been in the hibs dressing room just before kick off to tell us it's a FACT his motivational skills are ****. Or that he's a bully. But I suppose if you write FACT in capitals then it must be a fact.... Sorry, FACT.

[matty_f]

This is why I think Butcher has what it takes to turn us around if we give him the time and backing to do it:


As part of the push for promotion in the 2009–10 season, Inverness went on an unbeaten away run in the league that continued through the entire 2010 calendar year, culminating in a 1–1 draw against Hearts at Tynecastle on 18 December.[17] This extraordinary sequence ended in defeat at St. Johnstone on 2 January 2011 when the Perth side won by a single goal. At the split, Inverness narrowly missed out on a top six spot, eventually finishing in a club record-equalling 7th place. However, two years later, they would finish even higher.

During the 2012–13 season, a 3–0 win over Hibernian on 8 December 2012 saw them rise to second place in the SPL (behind Celtic), their then, highest ever league position.

Continued good form over the course of the season consolidated the club's position in the top-half of the table. Victory over Highland derby rivals Ross County[18] on 16 March elevated Inverness CT onto an almost unassailable points-total in their quest for a maiden 'top-6' finish. This achievement was confirmed the following day as the club benefited from a favourable result in the Sunday SPL fixture.[19] This guarantee of a 'top-6' place ensured that the 2012–13 Scottish Premier League season would see Inverness CT record their highest ever finishing league position.

Ultimately, Inverness CT finished in 4th place, narrowly missing Europa League qualification on the final day of the season, succumbing to a 1–0 defeat from local rivals Ross County.[20]


Inverness CT began the inaugural season (2013–14 Scottish Premiership) of the revamped SPFL Scottish Premiership with a 3–0 win over St. Mirren. This result saw the club take pole-position in the league table. They remained top of the league until the 9th game of the season when they dropped to 2nd place following a loss at St. Johnstone.

On 11 November 2013, Hibernian reached a compensation deal with Inverness for Terry Butcher to move to the club, alongside assistant manager Maurice Malpas.

The track record over the last few years is right there, and it's very impressive reading.

Presumably he's not forgotten how to build a team, spot a player, coach, or man-manage a team in the time it took him to drive down to East Lothian. That is Butcher's record over the last few years, how does Hibs' record compare over that time?

We've seen this squad see off one manager, we know they're not that good, let's not make the mistake of hounding out a manager who can clearly get results because it's not happened for him straight away.

[Ozyhibby]

Every single person on this board has complained about the players having too much power at our club. Butcher and Malpas are changing that. It's causing friction in the dressing room. Good. It has to be done. It's not a painless exercise but by the time it's complete in the summer, we will be in a much healthier state.
Although we are still crap, we don't appear to be as unfit as under the last few managers.
Butcher and Malpas set high standards. Players who don't want to meet those standards will be moved on quickly.
We will get the result we need, hopefully against St. Mirren.
Let's not panic.
Butcher will come good.

[J-C]

Every single person on this board has complained about the players having too much power at our club. Butcher and Malpas are changing that. It's causing friction in the dressing room. Good. It has to be done. It's not a painless exercise but by the time it's complete in the summer, we will be in a much healthier state.
Although we are still crap, we don't appear to be as unfit as under the last few managers.
Butcher and Malpas set high standards. Players who don't want to meet those standards will be moved on quickly.
We will get the result we need, hopefully against St. Mirren.
Let's not panic.
Butcher will come good.


There's ways and means to sort out these players and it looks like they have went about it the wrong way.

[jeffers]

This is why I think Butcher has what it takes to turn us around if we give him the time and backing to do it:



The track record over the last few years is right there, and it's very impressive reading.

Presumably he's not forgotten how to build a team, spot a player, coach, or man-manage a team in the time it took him to drive down to East Lothian. That is Butcher's record over the last few years, how does Hibs' record compare over that time?

We've seen this squad see off one manager, we know they're not that good, let's not make the mistake of hounding out a manager who can clearly get results because it's not happened for him straight away.

And if we get relegated this season will you still feel the same ? And as for the bit in bold the evidence would suggest that's exactly what has happened.

[Mikey09]

This is why I think Butcher has what it takes to turn us around if we give him the time and backing to do it:



The track record over the last few years is right there, and it's very impressive reading.

Presumably he's not forgotten how to build a team, spot a player, coach, or man-manage a team in the time it took him to drive down to East Lothian. That is Butcher's record over the last few years, how does Hibs' record compare over that time?

We've seen this squad see off one manager, we know they're not that good, let's not make the mistake of hounding out a manager who can clearly get results because it's not happened for him straight away.


Great post with real facts.... And you didn't need to write fact, FACT!!!! :top marks

[Ozyhibby]

There's ways and means to sort out these players and it looks like they have went about it the wrong way.

So long as it's sorted I don't mind how they do it. It had to be done. The last 4 managers approach to the problem did not work. Time for a new approach.
The minute we are safe I expect Terry will be calling a few into his office and advising them to look elsewhere for next season.
We will be in lot better shape come august.

[Ozyhibby]

And if we get relegated this season will you still feel the same ? And as for the bit in bold the evidence would suggest that's exactly what has happened.

We won't get relegated. Have faith. We need 4 points. We'll get them.

[jeffers]

We won't get relegated. Have faith. We need 4 points. We'll get them.

I hope you are right mate, at the moment I can't share your optimism.

[matty_f]

And if we get relegated this season will you still feel the same ? And as for the bit in bold the evidence would suggest that's exactly what has happened.

What evidence have you actually got other than internet rumours?

The team has lost form but that doesn't necessarily equate to coaching/man-management - there are many other factors in there as well. The results certainly aren't evidence of that, by all account Calderwood was great with the players and they loved training with him. The results and performances were woeful though.

The evidence that is there is that Malpas and Butcher are able to coach and manage a team to a higher standard than Hibs have reached in the last 4 years or so.

If we're relegated, I wouldn't sack Butcher. He was relegated with ICT and they never looked back, straight up at the first attempt and I think the piece I quoted said that they were unbeaten in a year on that charge back to the SPL.

I don't think we'll be relegated, there are 5 teams worse than us, statistically, at this point in the season. One of them is already relegated, so there are 4 teams that we need to be concerned about. Of these, we only need to match (not even better) one of those team's results over the next 5 games to be safe.

Of all the teams, we have the best odds of survival.

[weonlywon6-2]

we cant keep sacking managers,we are a laughing stock just now,that would only be made worse by dumping another manager.
Most of our players are not good enough and previous management has been to soft i feel,Butcher comes with more experience in football than any other person in scotland and needs to get his own players on the pitch.

to get the fans on side we need a big signing early doors

[jeffers]

What evidence have you actually got other than internet rumours?

The team has lost form but that doesn't necessarily equate to coaching/man-management - there are many other factors in there as well. The results certainly aren't evidence of that, by all account Calderwood was great with the players and they loved training with him. The results and performances were woeful though.

The evidence that is there is that Malpas and Butcher are able to coach and manage a team to a higher standard than Hibs have reached in the last 4 years or so.

If we're relegated, I wouldn't sack Butcher. He was relegated with ICT and they never looked back, straight up at the first attempt and I think the piece I quoted said that they were unbeaten in a year on that charge back to the SPL.

I don't think we'll be relegated, there are 5 teams worse than us, statistically, at this point in the season. One of them is already relegated, so there are 4 teams that we need to be concerned about. Of these, we only need to match (not even better) one of those team's results over the next 5 games to be safe.

Of all the teams, we have the best odds of survival.
I'm not referencing any internet rumours Matty I'm basing my comment on what I see every game. Where you don't think the results are down to bad coaching/man management I do. Constant chopping and changing of players/formations, playing a woefully off-form captain in a holding midfield role when you have (IMO) the best midfielder in the squad sitting on the bench, casting aside of players only to recall them, saying Harris will be rested for this season only to bring him back a game or so later, hoofball......I could go on. If these aren't signs of bad coaching/man management I'm not sure what is.

I admire your optimism and hope you are right, but it surely can't be based on anything you have seen from their time so far with us. What they achieved at ICT was impressive, but for what TB achieved at ICT I'll give you Brentford, Sydney, Coventry and Sunderland.

Granted there are 5 teams below us, but none of them are on as bad a run as us or playing as badly. At the moment there is nothing to suggest we are going to start picking up points other than wishful thinking and if we do continue performing as we have done we will be relegated.

[J-C]

I'm not referencing any internet rumours Matty I'm basing my comment on what I see every game. Where you don't think the results are down to bad coaching/man management I do. Constant chopping and changing of players/formations, playing a woefully off-form captain in a holding midfield role when you have (IMO) the best midfielder in the squad sitting on the bench, casting aside of players only to recall them, saying Harris will be rested for this season only to bring him back a game or so later, hoofball......I could go on. If these aren't signs of bad coaching/man management I'm not sure what is.

I admire your optimism and hope you are right, but it surely can't be based on anything you have seen from their time so far with us. What they achieved at ICT was impressive, but for what TB achieved at ICT I'll give you Brentford, Sydney, Coventry and Sunderland.

Granted there are 5 teams below us, but none of them are on as bad a run as us or playing as badly. At the moment there is nothing to suggest we are going to start picking up points other than wishful thinking and if we do continue performing as we have done we will be relegated.

:top marks

[Dashing Bob S]

I think the cup game v Raith was an eye opener of disenchantment between the current squad and manager. Butcher saw that there were players who A) could never fit into his system B) had no heart for a scrap.

The players probably saw the same, and saw by his reaction that they would mostly be looking for new clubs in the summer and have been going through the motions since.

I think somebody read them the riot act after that game and they reacted, not by rolling up the sleeves, but by switching off and phoning it in, a characteristic which has become imbedded in the Hibs psyche under the Petrie regime.

Butcher and Malpas perhaps should have kept quiet till we were safe or even top six, and certainly the players should have shown more professionalism and backbone.

Whatever, this is where we seem to be now.

Obviously this is speculation on my part, but deduced from events.

[jeffers]

I think the cup game v Raith was an eye opener of disenchantment between the current squad and manager. Butcher saw that there were players who A) could never fit into his system B) had no heart for a scrap.

The players probably saw the same, and saw by his reaction that they would mostly be looking for new clubs in the summer and have been going through the motions since.

I think somebody read them the riot act after that game and they reacted, not by rolling up the sleeves, but by switching off and phoning it in, a characteristic which has become imbedded in the Hibs psyche under the Petrie regime.

Butcher and Malpas perhaps should have kept quiet till we were safe or even top six, and certainly the players should have shown more professionalism and backbone.

Whatever, this is where we seem to be now.

Obviously this is speculation on my part, but deduced from event.

The Raith game was an eye-opener for me too. A game that wasn't going our way and our managerial duo were unable to do anything about it. TB even commented afterwards that we had lost the midfield battle, but during the game he did F all to change it.

[cam2644]

Sack him and get mcleish in for rest of season. Next season bring ian Murray as his assistant with a view to him taking over


Thank goodness you're not running the club. Dropping managers at the drop of a hat doesn't work.

[Captain Trips]

Thank goodness you're not running the club. Dropping managers at the drop of a hat doesn't work.

Can you tell me when Hibs have ever done this since I guess Sauzee? Also why are we p1sh at the moment when we do not sack managers at drop of hat?

[jeffers]

Can you tell me when Hibs have ever done this since I guess Sauzee?

You are wasting your time. Some fans are unwilling to accept we (may) have appointed yet another dud so they are willing to give them years even if it means we end up being relegated. "We can't keep sacking managers" isn't a valid reason for me if they clearly aren't good enough. None of the managers we have sacked recently has gone on to better things other than Mixu, who himself admitted wasn't ready for the job when he got it.

[jacomo]

You are wasting your time. Some fans are unwilling to accept we (may) have appointed yet another dud so they are willing to give them years even if it means we end up being relegated. "We can't keep sacking managers" isn't a valid reason for me if they clearly aren't good enough. None of the managers we have sacked recently has gone on to better things other than Mixu, who himself admitted wasn't ready for the job when he got it.

Who is saying this?

[matty_f]

I'm not referencing any internet rumours Matty I'm basing my comment on what I see every game. Where you don't think the results are down to bad coaching/man management I do. Constant chopping and changing of players/formations, playing a woefully off-form captain in a holding midfield role when you have (IMO) the best midfielder in the squad sitting on the bench, casting aside of players only to recall them, saying Harris will be rested for this season only to bring him back a game or so later, hoofball......I could go on. If these aren't signs of bad coaching/man management I'm not sure what is.

I admire your optimism and hope you are right, but it surely can't be based on anything you have seen from their time so far with us. What they achieved at ICT was impressive, but for what TB achieved at ICT I'll give you Brentford, Sydney, Coventry and Sunderland.

Granted there are 5 teams below us, but none of them are on as bad a run as us or playing as badly. At the moment there is nothing to suggest we are going to start picking up points other than wishful thinking and if we do continue performing as we have done we will be relegated.

That's not evidence of poor coaching or man-management though, that's what I'm saying - it's your take on it.

How long ago were Brentford, Sydney, Coventry and Sunderland? You use Mixu as an example of when a manager wasn't ready - maybe Butcher wasn't ready for those jobs?

The other thing, is football is about opinions, you think KT is the best midfielder at the club, a lot of folk would agree with you, a lot wouldn't. Depends on the job Butcher's asking him to do. Maybe these other midfielders are showing KT up in training every day? Maybe they are working harder, following instructions better, are being a better influence in the squad.

It's not blind optimism just as much as your opinion isn't blind pessimism.

[jeffers]

Who is saying this?

Matty for one.

[matty_f]

Matty for one.

In which case you've grossly mis-interpreted what I'm saying.

[Mikey]

Matty for one.

I think you need to go back and re-read what he's posted.

[Ozyhibby]

From what people are saying (not just on here) there is trouble at East Mains.
Good.
Certain players are resisting the changes Butcher and Malpas are bringing in. Tough.
The reason Butcher and Malpas were brought in was because we needed change. East mains had become a bit cosy.
Some of the players haven't got the stomach for the fight.
Looks like some of the fans haven't either.

[jeffers]

That's not evidence of poor coaching or man-management though, that's what I'm saying - it's your take on it.

How long ago were Brentford, Sydney, Coventry and Sunderland? You use Mixu as an example of when a manager wasn't ready - maybe Butcher wasn't ready for those jobs?

The other thing, is football is about opinions, you think KT is the best midfielder at the club, a lot of folk would agree with you, a lot wouldn't. Depends on the job Butcher's asking him to do. Maybe these other midfielders are showing KT up in training every day? Maybe they are working harder, following instructions better, are being a better influence in the squad.

It's not blind optimism just as much as your opinion isn't blind pessimism.
We'll need to agree to disagree re the coaching man management, but I can't see the examples I've given as anything other than that. What would you refer them as ?

Yup could well be correct and TB wasn't ready for those jobs, and it could be ICT was a nice cushy wee number where expectations were low and the Hibs job is too big for him.

I could care less what a player does at training, all I hear is how training went well during the week but come the actual game another garbage performance is delivered. I care what happens on the park and the last game I saw KT for the short spell he was on was arguably our best player and contributed imo more than Harris. Yet come the next game KT is on the bench, Harris starts and Liam Craig is back playing the holding midfield role. I have no doubt KT's omission is nothing to do with his ability, but his fallout with Malpas and his bench warming is the management team being petty. If, as appears the case, they have no intention of playing him don't lie about him not being fit when he is and have him on the bench when they clearly have no intention of playing him. Another example of bad man management imo.

[jeffers]

In which case you've grossly mis-interpreted what I'm saying.

"If we're relegated, I wouldn't sack Butcher. He was relegated with ICT and they never looked back."

How am I supposed to interpret that ?

[matty_f]

We'll need to agree to disagree re the coaching man management, but I can't see the examples I've given as anything other than that. What would you refer them as ?

Yup could well be correct and TB wasn't ready for those jobs, and it could be ICT was a nice cushy wee number where expectations were low and the Hibs job is too big for him.

I could care less what a player does at training, all I hear is how training went well during the week but come the actual game another garbage performance is delivered. I care what happens on the park and the last game I saw KT for the short spell he was on was arguably our best player and contributed imo more than Harris. Yet come the next game KT is on the bench, Harris starts and Liam Craig is back playing the holding midfield role. I have no doubt KT's omission is nothing to do with his ability, but his fallout with Malpas and his bench warming is the management team being petty. If, as appears the case, they have no intention of playing him don't lie about him not being fit when he is and have him on the bench when they clearly have no intention of playing him. Another example of bad man management imo.

They had him on the bench and played him against the Yams. Maybe they thought he wasn't the right sub to make on Monday night?

Of course it should matter what the player is doing in training, what incentive is there for players to work hard and train hard if they show it all week and then someone else gets picked instead? The place in the team has to be earned, not given on reputation.

Can you point to when Butcher has lied about KT's fitness and give evidence of that? Are you talking about injury-free or match fitness?

Maybe Butcher's assessment of KT is different to yours? I thought Taiwo had a decent game on Monday night, there are folk on here who agree and folk who thought he was terrible. Who's right? It's just opinions.

The performances might be to do with man management and coaching, they may equally be to do with injuries making better players unavailable or players having to play out of position, or it could be players dropping form/confidence. It could be that the breaks aren't going our way, so we don't get a penalty, or we don't get a goal that is clearly onside, and so on. Confidence is low, the players are struggling and the lack of confidence is highlighting deficencies in the squad that we knew were there and that were a large contributing factor in the departure of a manager already this season.

You can interpret what you want from the performances, some are saying that it's Petrie's fault, or STF's. Again, it's opinions.

I think if Butcher looked back in hindsight at some of his comments about the squad and whether or not they were good enough to stay at the club he'd probably do it differently, but I remember being pleased that he'd been told a few home truths about it at the time, I thought it would be the rocket up the erse that a lot of the players need(ed).

[matty_f]

"If we're relegated, I wouldn't sack Butcher. He was relegated with ICT and they never looked back."

How am I supposed to interpret that ?


You are wasting your time. Some fans are unwilling to accept we (may) have appointed yet another dud so they are willing to give them years even if it means we end up being relegated. "We can't keep sacking managers" isn't a valid reason for me if they clearly aren't good enough. None of the managers we have sacked recently has gone on to better things other than Mixu, who himself admitted wasn't ready for the job when he got it.



So, where does my comment say the bit in bold?

[Captain Trips]

They had him on the bench and played him against the Yams. Maybe they thought he wasn't the right sub to make on Monday night?

Of course it should matter what the player is doing in training, what incentive is there for players to work hard and train hard if they show it all week and then someone else gets picked instead? The place in the team has to be earned, not given on reputation.

Can you point to when Butcher has lied about KT's fitness and give evidence of that? Are you talking about injury-free or match fitness?

Maybe Butcher's assessment of KT is different to yours? I thought Taiwo had a decent game on Monday night, there are folk on here who agree and folk who thought he was terrible. Who's right? It's just opinions.

The performances might be to do with man management and coaching, they may equally be to do with injuries making better players unavailable or players having to play out of position, or it could be players dropping form/confidence. It could be that the breaks aren't going our way, so we don't get a penalty, or we don't get a goal that is clearly onside, and so on. Confidence is low, the players are struggling and the lack of confidence is highlighting deficencies in the squad that we knew were there and that were a large contributing factor in the departure of a manager already this season.

You can interpret what you want from the performances, some are saying that it's Petrie's fault, or STF's. Again, it's opinions.

I think if Butcher looked back in hindsight at some of his comments about the squad and whether or not they were good enough to stay at the club he'd probably do it differently, but I remember being pleased that he'd been told a few home truths about it at the time, I thought it would be the rocket up the erse that a lot of the players need(ed).


You make fair points what I would say that you seem in support of Butcher ok but in your opinion having him already looking back in hindsight at decisions made along with worse form than last manager you understand major concerns?

[matty_f]

You make fair points what I would say that you seem in support of Butcher ok but in your opinion having him already looking back in hindsight at decisions made along with worse form than last manager you understand major concerns?

I think the are justifiable concerns, I'm concerned too but I think there's a blinkeredness and a certain element of hysteria around it as well, which again is understandable given the position we find ourselves in.

My biggest worry though is that we bring in a manager who has a team on lesser wages, assembled on a much lower budget that consistently outperformed our players, out-fought and worked harder than our players, who were fitter and hungrier consistently than our players, and the consensus is swinging to the opinion that the issue now isnt lying with the same players that got us into this mess, but rather the manager who got the other team performing like that.

Does that not seem a bit mental?

[jeffers]

They had him on the bench and played him against the Yams. Maybe they thought he wasn't the right sub to make on Monday night? - and by the look of things he will rarely be the right sub in their opinion. I fail to see the difference in him being the right man to come on against Hearts but not against Aberdeen, unless they genuinely thought Liam Craig was doing a good job.

Of course it should matter what the player is doing in training, what incentive is there for players to work hard and train hard if they show it all week and then someone else gets picked instead? The place in the team has to be earned, not given on reputation - because you don't win points in training only in actual matches. If a player drops out due to injury/poor form then the players impressing/working hard should be the ones to take their place. I'm sure you are not suggesting it for a minute but follow your logic and you could be awful every game but continue to get picked every week 'cos you impress in training.

Can you point to when Butcher has lied about KT's fitness and give evidence of that? Are you talking about injury-free or match fitness? - I don't have the article to hand but he stated he wasn't fit but people who know KT say that isn't true. He played a number of EOS games, but didn't even make the bench and all you ever hear is players only ever get match fit by actually playing in matches.

Maybe Butcher's assessment of KT is different to yours? I thought Taiwo had a decent game on Monday night, there are folk on here who agree and folk who thought he was terrible. Who's right? It's just opinions. - of course it is just opinions but if TB genuinely feels LC is a better option than KT I despair.

The performances might be to do with man management and coaching, they may equally be to do with injuries making better players unavailable or players having to play out of position, or it could be players dropping form/confidence. It could be that the breaks aren't going our way, so we don't get a penalty, or we don't get a goal that is clearly onside, and so on. Confidence is low, the players are struggling and the lack of confidence is highlighting deficencies in the squad that we knew were there and that were a large contributing factor in the departure of a manager already this season.

You can interpret what you want from the performances, some are saying that it's Petrie's fault, or STF's. Again, it's opinions. - again last 2 paragraphs, you have your views I have mine.

I think if Butcher looked back in hindsight at some of his comments about the squad and whether or not they were good enough to stay at the club he'd probably do it differently, but I remember being pleased that he'd been told a few home truths about it at the time, I thought it would be the rocket up the erse that a lot of the players need(ed - no arguments there.

We're clearly not going to agree on a lot of this but no harm in the debate.

[jeffers]

So, where does my comment say the bit in bold?

I wasn't quoting you on that whole sentence, I quoted you on "they are willing to give them years even if it means we end up being relegated"

[matty_f]

I wasn't quoting you on that whole sentence, I quoted you on "they are willing to give them years even if it means we end up being relegated"

So firstly, I'm not saying we give him years, I'm saying we give him more than a few months, even if we end up being relegated.

If we replace him now, and get relegated anyway, are we sacking that manager right away, or would you give him time to fix it? If you're giving him more time, what's the rational behind it? So he can bring in his own players? Well, why not give the guy here that opportunity?

McLeish got us relegated and I'm absolutely delighted we kept him because he brought us back up in style and put together one of the best Hibs sides I can remember.

[jeffers]

So firstly, I'm not saying we give him years, I'm saying we give him more than a few months, even if we end up being relegated.

If we replace him now, and get relegated anyway, are we sacking that manager right away, or would you give him time to fix it? If you're giving him more time, what's the rational behind it? So he can bring in his own players? Well, why not give the guy here that opportunity?

McLeish got us relegated and I'm absolutely delighted we kept him because he brought us back up in style and put together one of the best Hibs sides I can remember.

So if he takes us down how long are you saying he gets ?

And if I'm mis-reading your posts you are doing the same with mine. Nowhere have I said sack him now, I said if he gets us relegated then I would sack him. I've said if we stay up he deserves the same opportunity as Fenlon had to sign his own players.

I don't think you can compare the two situations, McLeish was given the job too late on to keep us up, we were on our way down when he took over - we weren't in that position when TB took over.

[matty_f]

We're clearly not going to agree on a lot of this but no harm in the debate.

Maybe they thought that KT was right for the opposition against the Yams, but not against Aberdeen. They maybe saw our priority in getting subs on that would attack more (Handling, Watmore, and Cummings are all forward thinking players, we needed a goal, I see a logic there - though maybe not in sending Cummings on with a minute to go unless that was to get Collins a round of applause for his shift).


The point about working hard in training is about context, it wouldn't be the only reason that you'd pick a player or drop a player but it has to come into it at some point. I'm not being funny, but IMHO there isn't a player in the team, save for maybe Stanton, that could grumble about not keeping their place.

[eggbamyasi]

Agree 100% with your last line :D and the rest proves my point, but the last points important!!

Hehe love it . Lol

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

So if he takes us down how long are you saying he gets ?

And if I'm mis-reading your posts you are doing the same with mine. Nowhere have I said sack him now, I said if he gets us relegated then I would sack him. I've said if we stay up he deserves the same opportunity as Fenlon had to sign his own players.

I don't think you can compare the two situations, McLeish was given the job too late on to keep us up, we were on our way down when he took over - we weren't in that position when TB took over.

We certainly weren't on our way up when Fenlon left, otherwise why would he go? The situations are similar, but why wait a few weeks to sack Butcher, if we're relegated the damage is already done, so what benefit is there in punting him?

The reason Fenlon left is that the players/team were poor. The performances were dreadful to watch, there was no pace, creativity etc in the side. Butcher deserves the chance to change that. His record over the last 4 or 5 years tells us he can build a successful side, it doesn't make him a miracle worker.

IMHO, he deserves the opportunity to build his own team before anyone thinks about sacking him.

[Beefster]

Some fans are unwilling to accept we (may) have appointed yet another dud

We may have appointed another dud and, if so, most folk will accept it. However, Butcher's been in the job for about 140 days or thereabouts. Some of us just think that it'll take a bit longer than that to determine whether he's a dud or not.

To sack a manager within 6 months and without giving him the opportunity to deal with the issues at the club would be just loony tunes. It won't happen either.

[3pm]

The fans?

7 years of pish, Petrie is lucky we still have any.

[jeffers]

We certainly weren't on our way up when Fenlon left, otherwise why would he go? The situations are similar, but why wait a few weeks to sack Butcher, if we're relegated the damage is already done, so what benefit is there in punting him?

The reason Fenlon left is that the players/team were poor. The performances were dreadful to watch, there was no pace, creativity etc in the side. Butcher deserves the chance to change that. His record over the last 4 or 5 years tells us he can build a successful side, it doesn't make him a miracle worker.

IMHO, he deserves the opportunity to build his own team before anyone thinks about sacking him.
He left because he couldn't take us any further and we were floating around in mid-table neither looking like being relegated nor breaking our way into the top 4.

I've already said if he keeps us up he deserves the chance to have a clear out in the summer but while I don't think the squad are good they shouldn't be getting relegated and I don't think for a minute PF would have has had us relegated. If we are that is down to TB I personally feel that is a sackable offence.

I don't disagree re the performances under PF but under TB it is even worse. Not only do we not look like scoring but we are unable to keep a clean sheet. I'm not asking TB to be a miracle worker, I've been a Hibs fan for over 40 years, my expectations are not unrealistic. I didn't expect him to make us worse tho and have us in danger of relegation with only 5 games to go.

[matty_f]

He left because he couldn't take us any further and we were floating around in mid-table neither looking like being relegated nor breaking our way into the top 4.

I've already said if he keeps us up he deserves the chance to have a clear out in the summer but while I don't think the squad are good they shouldn't be getting relegated and I don't think for a minute PF would have has had us relegated. If we are that is down to TB I personally feel that is a sackable offence.

I don't disagree re the performances under PF but under TB it is even worse. Not only do we not look like scoring but we are unable to keep a clean sheet. I'm not asking TB to be a miracle worker, I've been a Hibs fan for over 40 years, my expectations are not unrealistic. I didn't expect him to make us worse tho and have us in danger of relegation with only 5 games to go.

In the latter stages of fenlon's time we were struggling to get an attempt on target over three games, and shipped goals at an alarming rate as well.

My opinion is that it was less to do with the manager and his tactics and more to do with the talent and application of the players. Fenlon went because he shaped that team, he failed to address a chronic lack of pace and creativity and it cost him his job.

We didn't exactly have a water-tight defence under Fenlon either. You can take your pick of humiliating results to highlight that.

Butcher had a good initial impact but lost key players through injury and suspension. We'd be in a much better state with Scott Robertson and Paul Hanlon available imho.

It's not as black and white as saying that the team is struggling ergo it must be the manager.

[jeffers]

We may have appointed another dud and, if so, most folk will accept it. However, Butcher's been in the job for about 140 days or thereabouts. Some of us just think that it'll take a bit longer than that to determine whether he's a dud or not.

To sack a manager within 6 months and without giving him the opportunity to deal with the issues at the club would be just loony tunes. It won't happen either.

Which is why I said may have appointed a dud, not have.

I'm now just repeating the same thing over and over here. I'm saying if we stay up I'm fully in favour of giving him the chance to sign his own players, but if he takes us down deserves the sack. Poor squad or not I don't know any Hibs fan who expected us to be worse to watch and have worse results under TB. Relegation will be an absolute disaster for us and if that happens imo he will be a dud. I could care less what he achieved at ICT in the same way (although I referenced them) I could care about his failures at most of his other clubs - it's what he achieves at Hibs that I care about.

[jeffers]

In the latter stages of fenlon's time we were struggling to get an attempt on target over three games, and shipped goals at an alarming rate as well.

My opinion is that it was less to do with the manager and his tactics and more to do with the talent and application of the players. Fenlon went because he shaped that team, he failed to address a chronic lack of pace and creativity and it cost him his job.

We didn't exactly have a water-tight defence under Fenlon either. You can take your pick of humiliating results to highlight that.

Butcher had a good initial impact but lost key players through injury and suspension. We'd be in a much better state with Scott Robertson and Paul Hanlon available imho.

It's not as black and white as saying that the team is struggling ergo it must be the manager.

I'm not wanting to turn this into a PF/TB debate. PF deserved to go for all the reasons you state, I'd have got rid of him at the end of last season.

TB did indeed have a good initial impact and while I would have SR & PH in my team the slide we are on started before their injuries. If he hadn't got anything out of them I'd be more inclined to say it was all down to the players, but the fact is they were capable of better performances earlier in the season. His actions - team selection/tactics and telling some players they weren't good enough and had no future. If he was a great manager he should be able to get them out of this slump, at this moment in time he doesn't appear to have a clue how to do so. You can blame the players all you want but it's up to a manager to get the best out of what he has, alienating a number of the squad isn't going to help anyone.

[Hibrandenburg]

If i had a child that kept banging its head against the wall, i'd stop him doing it.

Butcher was brought in to make us better. THE FACTS ARE, he's made us considerably worse. And that is a direct result of his management, his bullying and his fantastic motivational skills.

The point i made about Hughes is right, one of the problems he was supposed to have was he was a bully. well whoopee dee, we have two of them now, whose football philosophy is to punt it long pretty much like Fenlon but a little quicker.

They also will not keep a settled side, play players who are in form and are taking us down.

Too ****in right i want him out.

The FACTS? Are you really sure they're the FACTS?

Bullied? Butcher takes a hard line with these sloths and it's bullying. Our players don't need to knuckle down and tow the line because they know that if they don't like what they're being told to do then all they have to do is throw the dummy out the pram and the manager is on his way. No manager stands a chance at ER so long as it's them running the show.

This vicious circle has to be broken sooner rather than later but as long as the bedwetters rule the roost it'll continue evermore. Nobody can be sure how it'll turn out with Butcher, but if he's punted because we bottle it again then his successor will suffer the same fate. That's constantly banging your head against the wall