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View Full Version : If Fenlon was clueless, Butcher is turning out to be MUCH worse.



blackpoolhibs
07-04-2014, 08:56 PM
Fenlon had this bunch of crap playing some sort of tune some of the time. Fenlon was useless, but we seem to have replaced him with someone worse.

Dont give me all this pish about him needing his own players, if we replace the manager we obviously are doing it with someone we think is better.

And if he's better, he should be able to get those players he's inherited to play better, be better organised and get better results.

Well butcher cant, he's another huddy to add to the list.

Well done Petrie, you are a clown.

MWHIBBIES
07-04-2014, 08:57 PM
Careful what you wish for, you wanted Fenlon gone :greengrin

SaulGoodman
07-04-2014, 08:58 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

Stevie Reid
07-04-2014, 08:59 PM
The two previous SPL clubs managed by TB finished bottom of the league in his first season - though Motherwell weren't relegated due to a twist of fate.

So you could say he's improving, can't finish bottom this year.

Greencore
07-04-2014, 09:01 PM
Fenlon had this bunch of crap playing some sort of tune some of the time. Fenlon was useless, but we seem to have replaced him with someone worse.

Dont give me all this pish about him needing his own players, if we replace the manager we obviously are doing it with someone we think is better.

And if he's better, he should be able to get those players he's inherited to play better, be better organised and get better results.

Well butcher cant, he's another huddy to add to the list.

Well done Petrie, you are a clown.
I really do not know why but what worrys me most about Rod Petrie is when appointing PF he said that "PAT is a winner" when appointing TB he said "TERRY is a winner" it's like he is the same old broken record.... like he doesn't even care about the club...

Brightside
07-04-2014, 09:01 PM
Totally agree BH. I went tonight despite telling myself i shouldn't. He has lost the plot. Formation was a joke. Team selection stupid. Taking off Taiwo to replace with Handling? Despite the lazy useless Cairney bringing nothing to the game, and as for making a sub at 89 mins? We will go down unless other teams keep losing, and we deserve to go down as we are utter piyesh. Oh for those Hibees that don't rate Lewis...well he's the best player in our team right now!!

blackpoolhibs
07-04-2014, 09:02 PM
Careful what you wish for, you wanted Fenlon gone :greengrin


Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

Of course i wanted Fenlon gone, but its only fair to think we'd be bringing in a better man. Not someone who is too stubborn to do the right thing for the club.

hibee_girl
07-04-2014, 09:03 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

We didn't get rid of him, he wasn't sacked, he was hounded out by the fans.

Thecat23
07-04-2014, 09:03 PM
Thank you Hibs, just under £200 I've made of you lot. ****ing bunch of losers at least your making me money though.

Greencore
07-04-2014, 09:04 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course
Well if TB gets NO funds in the summer to get his own team and put his stamp on the club, we can certainly blame RP, i think that will be the breaking point for most fans if we do not get any investment from RP next season, we either find a new scheme or lower ticket prices and take a risk (not a big one) or carry on under achieving and being a laughing stock, yes a laughing stock because that is how we are playing, especially mcgirven, collins and terry's famous one up front at home.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
07-04-2014, 09:05 PM
Thank you Hibs, just under £200 I've made of you lot. ****ing bunch of losers at least your making me money though.

:greengrin am waitin on Bilbao for £110

SaulGoodman
07-04-2014, 09:06 PM
We didn't get rid of him, he wasn't sacked, he was hounded out by the fans.

That's what I meant.

blackpoolhibs
07-04-2014, 09:07 PM
Careful what you wish for, you wanted Fenlon gone :greengrin


Thank you Hibs, just under £200 I've made of you lot. ****ing bunch of losers at least your making me money though.

Done the dons in a double with spurs, easiest money you can ever earn without working. :boo hoo:

HUTCHYHIBBY
07-04-2014, 09:09 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

Not hasty enough for me.

very old hibby
07-04-2014, 09:10 PM
we simply cant keep making 3, 4, 5 or 6 changes every game ! 1 maybe 2 it smacks of desperation and shows the manager has no confidence in his squad

BOB MARLEYS DUG
07-04-2014, 09:11 PM
Atleast Fenlon got these players playing and got more out of them. They all look like headless chickens.

Liam89
07-04-2014, 09:11 PM
Had Aberdeen to win and under 2.5 goals and FC Metz double. Easy £200 thank you Hibs for being crap.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
07-04-2014, 09:12 PM
Had Aberdeen to win and under 2.5 goals and FC Metz double. Easy £200 thank you Hibs for being crap.

I need to take a leaf from you and TheCat23's book and start betting against this shower of ****. :agree:

jacomo
07-04-2014, 09:13 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

Fenlon walked, did he not?

To be honest, I don't blame him. We seem like the opposite of a happy working environment.

Just_Jimmy
07-04-2014, 09:13 PM
:greengrin am waitin on Bilbao for £110

me tae. £300. 2-0 now. :greengrin

Pretty Boy
07-04-2014, 09:15 PM
Not hasty enough for me.

This.

Should have been gone before the start of this season.

Hibercelona
07-04-2014, 09:15 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

Yep and the reason most of us wanted Butcher was because he seemed to have the right attitude and the ability to get a club punshing above their weight.

Also, nobody complained about many of the signings we currently have when they arrived here, because again, we knew at the time that they were decent signings that performed well elsewhere.

So right now, we have a manager that did very well at another club and a group of players that barely anybody was complaining about on arrival. Yet, we find ourselves on yet another shoogly peg.

So you have to ask. Whats really going on?

How can we bring players that have done well elsewhere and a management team that have done well elsewhere together and find that our problems simply continue anyway?

andy1875
07-04-2014, 09:15 PM
I hope to god that Butcher and Malpas go through the players behind closed doors for some of the errors they make on a weekly basis because unless I'm going blind, they don't do it during the game.

Lack of marking, brutal passes to players throats across our own box, countless misplaced passes to name a few again tonight.

Maybe it's just me but I'd love to see the players getting a right telling of so they know fine well to get the finger out. Yet to see it from either TB or MM. Might not be their style mind? :confused:

Lester B
07-04-2014, 09:16 PM
Totally agree BH. I went tonight despite telling myself i shouldn't. He has lost the plot. Formation was a joke. Team selection stupid. Taking off Taiwo to replace with Handling? Despite the lazy useless Cairney bringing nothing to the game, and as for making a sub at 89 mins? We will go down unless other teams keep losing, and we deserve to go down as we are utter piyesh. Oh for those Hibees that don't rate Lewis...well he's the best player in our team right now!!

Agree with you both. Lewis was decent and wish they all had his effort and commitment Stanton and Harris are good prospects and will get better. As will Forster if actually played in his correct position but the rest?? Craig is a shell of the player that started the season. McGivern should never play for us again. We don't actually have any full backs.

People have kept saying that he needs his own players. Mince. He has taken average players and made them mediocre. Any decent manager should be able to make a group of players more than the sum of their parts. He somehow makes them less than that sum. Not seen/heard any TB post match comments but suspect it's the usual guff about 'hard work' he spouts. How about something like tactics to suit the squad? Some semblance of a game plan? I've never been much of a KT fan even first time around but good god even I now think that midfield could have done with him in there.

Onion
07-04-2014, 09:16 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

Oh dear God :rolleyes:

IberianHibernian
07-04-2014, 09:19 PM
I was one of a tiny minority defending Fenlon here and it gives me no satisfaction to say it now . Not exactly sure if he was sacked , felt he had to resign or rumoured stuff about November end contract clause was true but I think we should have supported him more in summer and before and after ( did he ever have a proper assistant , was extra help provided when close season between cup final and first UEFA Cup tie took place was a matter of weeks without him knowing if our two best players were staying ? ) . The way Butcher signed up quickly with no other names mentioned suggests Hibs had some sort of agreement with him well before November , possibly well before last summer which must have put extra pressure on Pat ( maybe limited his budget too ) . Was a pity that we got Fenlon midseason which is always difficult especially for a manager who is new to Scottish league but I and many other Hibbies were really excited about new project with a new manager - I think Petrie ( or whoever made decisión ) got it right but he didn`t have strength to support him when he and club needed it . Also , crowds didn`t go up with Butcher confirming it wasn`t a popular decisión . Anyway ,time to hope that players can scrape together enough points to avoid relegation and then whoever manages us next season does a better job .

Hibrandenburg
07-04-2014, 09:19 PM
Here we go again, get the pitchforks and torches out, there's a monster at the castle. Those who do not learn from the past are damned to relive it. Punxsutawney Phil predicts same **** different season.

Onion
07-04-2014, 09:20 PM
I hope to god that Butcher and Malpas go through the players behind closed doors for some of the errors they make on a weekly basis because unless I'm going blind, they don't do it during the game.

Lack of marking, brutal passes to players throats across our own box, countless misplaced passes to name a few again tonight.

Maybe it's just me but I'd love to see the players getting a right telling of so they know fine well to get the finger out. Yet to see it from either TB or MM. Might not be their style mind? :confused:

And what happens if they don't get the reaction they want ? Where do you go from there ?

Heard TB went through them at HT and again at FT. Not convinced that's what they need at this stage. Their confidence is completely shot and just don't see that these players are capable of raising their game because the manager is unhappy. Most of them look as if they'd sooner be anywhere but on a football pitch playing for Hibs.

Borderhibbie76
07-04-2014, 09:20 PM
How on earth he can continue to play liam craig over kevin thomson...beyond me!! And brings on Danny f##### handling before watmore!!

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Lester B
07-04-2014, 09:22 PM
Here we go again, get the pitchforks and torches out, there's a monster at the castle. Those who do not learn from the past are damned to relive it. Punxsutawney Phil predicts same **** different season.

Well I've read that three times and none the wiser. Is this meant to be funny? Pithy? Thought provoking? Something at all?

Swedish hibee
07-04-2014, 09:23 PM
I feel sick.

RIP Bestie
07-04-2014, 09:25 PM
Careful what you wish for, you wanted Fenlon gone :greengrin
Most wanted Fenlon gone. The point Blackpool is making is that we have replaced him with worse. Who can really argue with that? Butcher has came in like Charlie Big Spuds and destroyed any semblance of unity, desire or football awareness. If we go down it will be his fault in my opinion as he has taken us into that position.

lucky
07-04-2014, 09:26 PM
I wanted Butcher but he's lost my support now. 1 up front at home, refusal to play KT, lack of subs until 71 mins gone and then bringing on Cummings on in the 89 min was a farce. I'm sorry but clearly out his depth and I would cut our losses and get rid at the end of the season. I'm normally a happy clapper but out of 9 of us only 3 have renewed our STs. I'm struggling to convince the rest to sign up. Hibs really need to do something and quickly

IberianHibernian
07-04-2014, 09:26 PM
We didn't get rid of him, he wasn't sacked, he was hounded out by the fans.Never very clear . If true very sad cause directors should have more spine and visión ( original idea of appointing Pat was a good one IF backed in terms of management , signings , patience etc ) . I suspect Butcher had been fixed up previously which would just confirm how Little club understands fans - no rise in crowds when Butcher was appointed despite massive support from press which still continues .

RIP Bestie
07-04-2014, 09:28 PM
we simply cant keep making 3, 4, 5 or 6 changes every game ! 1 maybe 2 it smacks of desperation and shows the manager has no confidence in his squad
Or that the squad has no confidence in the manager.

stevejordan
07-04-2014, 09:31 PM
Fenlon had this bunch of crap playing some sort of tune some of the time. Fenlon was useless, but we seem to have replaced him with someone worse.

Dont give me all this pish about him needing his own players, if we replace the manager we obviously are doing it with someone we think is better.

And if he's better, he should be able to get those players he's inherited to play better, be better organised and get better results.

Well butcher cant, he's another huddy to add to the list.

Well done Petrie, you are a clown.

This is like groundhog day every Manager appointed by Petrie fails despite previous form this one is the worst of the lot.

IberianHibernian
07-04-2014, 09:33 PM
Or that the squad has no confidence in the manager.Suspect you`re right . Manger can`t find players to play the way he wants - high tempo , kick and rush and players can`t adapt to his system .

RIP Bestie
07-04-2014, 09:33 PM
Totally agree BH. I went tonight despite telling myself i shouldn't. He has lost the plot. Formation was a joke. Team selection stupid. Taking off Taiwo to replace with Handling? Despite the lazy useless Cairney bringing nothing to the game, and as for making a sub at 89 mins? We will go down unless other teams keep losing, and we deserve to go down as we are utter piyesh. Oh for those Hibees that don't rate Lewis...well he's the best player in our team right now!!
Really don't want this thread to be hijacked by a Lewis Stevenson debate but the above quote is the most evidence that is needed to show how pi*h we are.

The_Exile
07-04-2014, 09:35 PM
Well I've read that three times and none the wiser. Is this meant to be funny? Pithy? Thought provoking? Something at all?

You have clearly never seen the best film ever made :greengrin

The Green Goblin
07-04-2014, 09:39 PM
This thread`s going to run and run... :greengrin

Assuming the op is right for a moment, how has a manager who has done much better elsewhere in the same league with a fraction of the resources suddenly turned into a bad manager after he has come here? BH, are you really saying that things are now at the stage where you think that TB is the latest in a long long list of rank managers at Hibs?

For weeks now, many on here, including BH, (if I remember correctly but happy to be corrected on that), have been saying that the problem was that TB was working with PF`s players. Now it`s TB who is the problem? I`m still not convinced that`s true. We were playing a resurgent Dons side tonight who never looked troubled. Our team has been rank for 7 years, Sparky apart, and I still partly think that it is this which TB is dealing with, not just the last few months or PF`s remnants, and that is why I am still not quite in agreement with the op.

However, I won`t deny that the evidence is piling up week after week after week, e.g. not a single shot on goal in tonight`s game is just horrifying to contemplate. If TB somehow turns out to be the latest managerial flop at ER, and still nobody has managed to suss out what the hell is wrong with our club, then the ramifications of that are frightening, because if that`s what happens, then I for one don`t see where we have left to go.

erskine-hibby
07-04-2014, 09:40 PM
I think TB has made a few mistakes, though I feel he will get it right IF he is given the cash and if he gets the players he wants early. One thing we have not had, for as long as I can remember, is a decent pre season, mainly due to the fact that we leave it to the last minute.

Lester B
07-04-2014, 09:41 PM
You have clearly never seen the best film ever made :greengrin

Aha!!! Got it! Sorry bit slow tonight. Been watching that terrible football match!:aok:

andy1875
07-04-2014, 09:42 PM
And what happens if they don't get the reaction they want ? Where do you go from there ?

Heard TB went through them at HT and again at FT. Not convinced that's what they need at this stage. Their confidence is completely shot and just don't see that these players are capable of raising their game because the manager is unhappy. Most of them look as if they'd sooner be anywhere but on a football pitch playing for Hibs.

I don't know mate, it would certainly make me feel alot better seeing these mistakes get hammered :greengrin

Jokes aside though, i think Terry is the man to take us forward BUT I'm just mighty worried that we're destined for that 11th place. Defending like we do, a midfield which is softer than a bairns wet nappy and nowt up front. Recipe for disaster. Roll on the end of the season and fingers crossed 10th place or above.

nickwhibs
07-04-2014, 09:42 PM
I wanted Butcher but he's lost my support now. 1 up front at home, refusal to play KT, lack of subs until 71 mins gone and then bringing on Cummings on in the 89 min was a farce. I'm sorry but clearly out his depth and I would cut our losses and get rid at the end of the season. I'm normally a happy clapper but out of 9 of us only 3 have renewed our STs. I'm struggling to convince the rest to sign up. Hibs really need to do something and quickly

Exactly how I feel. Tonight confirmed for me that TB is not the man for Hibs, even though I was happy with the appointment. Looking back at it, I was pretty naive in that respect, as other than the first half of this season, he's actually got a pretty poor managerial record - not to mention his style of play. After an ok start with hibs, his record is shocking and feel we need to go for someone like Stewart McCall ASAP, and show some ambition.

The Green Goblin
07-04-2014, 09:45 PM
Exactly how I feel. Tonight confirmed for me that TB is not the man for Hibs, even though I was happy with the appointment. Looking back at it, I was pretty naive in that respect, as other than the first half of this season, he's actually got a pretty poor managerial record - not to mention his style of play. After an ok start with hibs, his record is shocking and fee we need to go for someone like Stewart McCall ASAP

We have been saying "we need to go for - insert name here - " for years and years and years, and sometimes some of us have got the name we picked, and still nothing gets better, only worse season after season. History alone suggests that if we got rid of TB, nothing would change.

IberianHibernian
07-04-2014, 09:49 PM
I think TB has made a few mistakes, though I feel he will get it right IF he is given the cash and if he gets the players he wants early. One thing we have not had, for as long as I can remember, is a decent pre season, mainly due to the fact that we leave it to the last minute.I think any half decent manager will do better next season if he gets players he wants in and I suspect ( maybe over optimistically ) that Petrie has kept some money aside ( since last summer ) for signings so we may see a couple of signings which with right press ( and TB seems to have more friends than his predeccesors ) will créate some optimism . . Fenlon had almost no close season and uncertainty over only 2 genuine quality players in squad and even so had us fighting well after early season disasters .

Crossgates Hibs
07-04-2014, 09:53 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

No he had to go and tbf Butcher had us winning a few games but has now gone to ****. What I would give to get Mowbray back who can get a team playing decent football and use youth properly.

IberianHibernian
07-04-2014, 09:53 PM
If any managerial change is to be made , it should be done once season finishes . No waiting till November . A new manager with new ideas will créate interest and sell tickets and will attract new players ( a lot of players in Europe don`t finish their season till the end od June even with World Cup on ) .

Crossgates Hibs
07-04-2014, 09:54 PM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course



No he had to go and tbf Butcher had us winning a few games but has now gone to ****. What I would give to get Mowbray back who can get a team playing decent football and use youth properly.

Crossgates Hibs
07-04-2014, 09:58 PM
Not hasty enough for me.


Or me he had to go when he did. Butcher needs to abandon how he wants play until he gets the players to do so. This isn't working we are honking

bookert
07-04-2014, 10:01 PM
Most wanted Fenlon gone. The point Blackpool is making is that we have replaced him with worse. Who can really argue with that? Butcher has came in like Charlie Big Spuds and destroyed any semblance of unity, desire or football awareness. If we go down it will be his fault in my opinion as he has taken us into that position.
Kinda agree with this, don't think these are the worst players I have seen in my 45 years supporting hibs, but definitely the worst team, no discernable shape or purpose. Can anyone remember us having fewer attempts at goal, yet apparently his philosophy is crosses and attempts. Really:-(

IWasThere2016
07-04-2014, 10:02 PM
Fenlon had this bunch of crap playing some sort of tune some of the time. Fenlon was useless, but we seem to have replaced him with someone worse.

Dont give me all this pish about him needing his own players, if we replace the manager we obviously are doing it with someone we think is better.

And if he's better, he should be able to get those players he's inherited to play better, be better organised and get better results.

Well butcher cant, he's another huddy to add to the list.

Well done Petrie, you are a clown.

Can't fault a word of that.


Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course

So if we want Pep from Bayern and RP cannae get him - it would be RP's fault :confused:

Petrie is there to lead .. where the **** do you think he is taking us???

rcarter1
07-04-2014, 10:03 PM
I won't make a judgement on TB until the end of the season/beginning of next. Looking at the match tonight I was thinking just how bad Pat Fenlon was at choosing players. It is his signings that are one paced (or less in some cases). A few promising youngsters aside we have looked this season markedly incapable of giving opponents problems, while on the other hand being very susceptible to any pace from the opposition (Malmo was the ultimate for this).

I think TB has made some wrong turnings so far, and publicly shaming the squad seems suicidal. I think he got complacent with respect to our SPL status and wanted to send a message that there will be big changes over the summer. If we go down it will be his fault for dispiriting an already poor bunch. But nonetheless its Pat that massively misunderstood how to assemble a squad for this league. IF we scrape through, TB and co will need to pull out all their rabbits in the summer. On a positive note, Aberdeen were fairly pash last season and one good recruitment drive sees them flying.

Northernhibee
07-04-2014, 10:06 PM
Thank you Hibs, just under £200 I've made of you lot. ****ing bunch of losers at least your making me money though.

Read the thread title. Then saw who started it.

Could barely make it up.

IberianHibernian
07-04-2014, 10:07 PM
Out of interest , when does Butcher`s contract end ? Don`t remember it being mentioned when he was appointed but suppose it`ll be till summer 2016 with get out clause if " bigger " team comes searching .

Cool_Hand_Luke
07-04-2014, 10:08 PM
I hope to god that Butcher and Malpas go through the players behind closed doors for some of the errors they make on a weekly basis because unless I'm going blind, they don't do it during the game.

Lack of marking, brutal passes to players throats across our own box, countless misplaced passes to name a few again tonight.

Maybe it's just me but I'd love to see the players getting a right telling of so they know fine well to get the finger out. Yet to see it from either TB or MM. Might not be their style mind? :confused:

I hope to god someone is going right through Butcher for some of the errors he is making.
Lucky to be 1-0 down at halftime yet no changes :confused:
Basically playing with 9 men with Craig and Cairney in the team tonight and waiting 70 minutes to make the first change :confused:
First sub Handling for Taiwo :confused:
Last sub with 1 minute to go :confused:

All IMO of course...but something is definately not right at the club and the sooner he gets his own players in the better, then we can hopefully see the improvement everyone is expecting...lets just hope we are still in the top division to see it!

NorthNorfolkHFC
07-04-2014, 10:12 PM
Are we 13 games defeated?

I see tonight we never hit the target, any of the statistics guys care to share when we let scored a goal. How many minutes has it been?


"That was classic intercourse!"

cabbageandribs1875
07-04-2014, 10:13 PM
Out of interest , when does Butcher`s contract end ? Don`t remember it being mentioned when he was appointed but suppose it`ll be till summer 2016 with get out clause if " bigger " team comes
searching .



3 year contract

blackpoolhibs
07-04-2014, 10:13 PM
This thread`s going to run and run... :greengrin

Assuming the op is right for a moment, how has a manager who has done much better elsewhere in the same league with a fraction of the resources suddenly turned into a bad manager after he has come here? BH, are you really saying that things are now at the stage where you think that TB is the latest in a long long list of rank managers at Hibs?

For weeks now, many on here, including BH, (if I remember correctly but happy to be corrected on that), have been saying that the problem was that TB was working with PF`s players. Now it`s TB who is the problem? I`m still not convinced that`s true. We were playing a resurgent Dons side tonight who never looked troubled. Our team has been rank for 7 years, Sparky apart, and I still partly think that it is this which TB is dealing with, not just the last few months or PF`s remnants, and that is why I am still not quite in agreement with the op.

However, I won`t deny that the evidence is piling up week after week after week, e.g. not a single shot on goal in tonight`s game is just horrifying to contemplate. If TB somehow turns out to be the latest managerial flop at ER, and still nobody has managed to suss out what the hell is wrong with our club, then the ramifications of that are frightening, because if that`s what happens, then I for one don`t see where we have left to go.


You speak a lot of truth in your post, and yes i have said before that Butcher needed his own player before we'd see an improvement. I think personally i had convinced myself Fenlons team was that poor, nobody could improve them, when if you sit down and think rationally. Fenlons team were poor, in fact i'd say they were the team thats b ored me the most in my years of watching us.

He walks and we pay compensation to ICT to bring in a manager who's supposed to be better, someone who should be able to get the players he inherited play similar but hopefully better.

After all he's a better manager no?

Yet what we currently have is an absolute shambles, he's made a team that were poor but competed in the middle of the league with an chance of top 6 and certainly not a team who'd be in a relegation battle, into one of the worst teams if not the worst team in this league.

Folk can deny it, but on current form we are the worst team in this league.

We have a manager who wouldnt know his best 11 if it battered him right on the end of his nose, and a stadium thats emptier and emptier as each week passes.

stevejordan
07-04-2014, 10:19 PM
You speak a lot of truth in your post, and yes i have said before that Butcher needed his own player before we'd see an improvement. I think personally i had convinced myself Fenlons team was that poor, nobody could improve them, when if you sit down and think rationally. Fenlons team were poor, in fact i'd say they were the team thats b ored me the most in my years of watching us.

He walks and we pay compensation to ICT to bring in a manager who's supposed to be better, someone who should be able to get the players he inherited play similar but hopefully better.

After all he's a better manager no?

Yet what we currently have is an absolute shambles, he's made a team that were poor but competed in the middle of the league with an chance of top 6 and certainly not a team who'd be in a relegation battle, into one of the worst teams if not the worst team in this league.

Folk can deny it, but on current form we are the worst team in this league.

We have a manager who wouldnt know his best 11 if it battered him right on the end of his nose, and a stadium thats emptier and emptier as each week passes.

With you on this one Blackpool the man is clueless and it is hard to beleive we have a worse Manager than Colin Calderwood but we have McLeish in now dump the trash or is it to late ?

lobster
07-04-2014, 10:25 PM
Hard to disagree with this thread. I wanted Ian Murray but was more than happy to embrace the general enthusiasm when TB arrived. The only logical conclusions to reach from that performance tonight is that TB has had a good look around and is now manufacturing an exit or that ICT was a fluke and he is indeed another dire Manager in the Easter road revolving door
:titanic:

IberianHibernian
07-04-2014, 10:25 PM
You speak a lot of truth in your post, and yes i have said before that Butcher needed his own player before we'd see an improvement. I think personally i had convinced myself Fenlons team was that poor, nobody could improve them, when if you sit down and think rationally. Fenlons team were poor, in fact i'd say they were the team thats b ored me the most in my years of watching us.

He walks and we pay compensation to ICT to bring in a manager who's supposed to be better, someone who should be able to get the players he inherited play similar but hopefully better.

After all he's a better manager no?

Yet what we currently have is an absolute shambles, he's made a team that were poor but competed in the middle of the league with an chance of top 6 and certainly not a team who'd be in a relegation battle, into one of the worst teams if not the worst team in this league.

Folk can deny it, but on current form we are the worst team in this league.

We have a manager who wouldnt know his best 11 if it battered him right on the end of his nose, and a stadium thats emptier and emptier as each week passes.Why do you say better manager ? Have you looked at Butcher`s and Fenlon`s records ? Butcher very good result last season with ICT ( though we wouldn`t be happy with 4th or 5th with hoofball even after one reasonable season now we`d grab 10th with hoofball ) aftyer years of failure earlier in managerial career . Fenlon , winning cups and leagues albeit in league which is probably slightly weaker than league we`re in . 2 cup finals with us can`t be ignored and a year ago we had big happy supports at Killie etc -we`ll take a big support to Paisley but it certainly won`t be a party atmosphere .

superbam
07-04-2014, 10:26 PM
Never very clear . If true very sad cause directors should have more spine and visión ( original idea of appointing Pat was a good one IF backed in terms of management , signings , patience etc ) . I suspect Butcher had been fixed up previously which would just confirm how Little club understands fans - no rise in crowds when Butcher was appointed despite massive support from press which still continues .

Fenlon was seriously thinking about leaving long before the losses to hearts and aberdeen that made the pressure from fans overwhelming

The Green Goblin
07-04-2014, 10:27 PM
With you on this one Blackpool the man is clueless and it is hard to beleive we have a worse Manager than Colin Calderwood but we have McLeish in now dump the trash or is it to late ?

Having just signed them, it`s fair to assume it would cost an absolute fortune to empty TB and get someone else in....and if Petrie`s pride led him to hold onto Calderwood, well....imagine this. We are like one of those other former top flight sides who slowly become a first division team over the years...Dundee, Dunfermline etc. Barring a miracle, it seems to be where we are headed right now...

stevejordan
07-04-2014, 10:33 PM
Having just signed them, it`s fair to assume it would cost an absolute fortune to empty TB and get someone else in....and if Petrie`s pride led him to hold onto Calderwood, well....imagine this. We are like one of those other former top flight sides who slowly become a first division team over the years...Dundee, Dunfermline etc. Barring a miracle, it seems to be where we are headed right now...

i get what you are saying goblin but this route we are on is not working one win in 14 4 lost in a row confidence at the lowest ever with players and us fans we need a change now or we sail into possible every game lost for next 5 games.

The financial cost of not sorting this mistake now is worse than not dealing with it now.

IberianHibernian
07-04-2014, 10:34 PM
Having just signed them, it`s fair to assume it would cost an absolute fortune to empty TB and get someone else in....and if Petrie`s pride led him to hold onto Calderwood, well....imagine this. We are like one of those other former top flight sides who slowly become a first division team over the years...Dundee, Dunfermline etc. Barring a miracle, it seems to be where we are headed right now...Yes But much cheaper to do it at end of season when compensation will be easier to agree ( easier for TB to get offer elsewhere ) and we can look for an imaginative appointment that can créate interest for next season .

DH1875
07-04-2014, 10:34 PM
I wanted Fenlon gone just as much as the next man and I was more than happy when Butcher got the job but duck me, it's just getting ridiculous now. We wouldn't be anywhere near this position IF Fenlon was here. ONE shot on target in 3 games, yeah, that's Pats fault :rolleyes:.

Onion
07-04-2014, 10:43 PM
My take on this is that despite his shortcomings Fenlon would have had us clear of relegation fight, but not by much. That's not to say change was not needed - it was. Fenlon had run his course. We were always one game away from a 7-0 massacre under Fenlon and he had no long term future at Hibs.

Butcher has turned out to be a huge disappointment so far. Yes, his saving grace is that he can claim these are Fenlon's players (and they are), but the results, attitude, set up, musical chairs and the way he has publicly managed his players has not filled me with confidence. Relegation would be an unmitigated disaster for Hibs and IMHO Butcher & Malpas would have to take a fair amount of blame for that. Just have to hope they find a magic potion and we can move on.

jeffers
07-04-2014, 10:45 PM
If we do go down I hope TB does the decent thing and resigns and he can take that ****** Malpas with him.

The Green Goblin
07-04-2014, 10:46 PM
i get what you are saying goblin but this route we are on is not working one win in 14 4 lost in a row confidence at the lowest ever with players and us fans we need a change now or we sail into possible every game lost for next 5 games.

The financial cost of not sorting this mistake now is worse than not dealing with it now.


There`s a lot of evidence to suggest that you are right. I am personally at a loss to know what to think might be the answer. I`m just very tired of it. I support the club by paying for a tv season ticket and hibs tv xtra and I watch the game every week, and I go to as many games as I can when I am back over at Christmas, but I can only imagine what guys who make the effort to support the team home and away in person feel like. It`s actually very sad: so many die-hard fans who love the club and they are being shafted year after year in return for their loyalty and so many people who have loved the club all their lives are drifting away. I will say that I don`t believe that the current people in charge have the answers either. That much is clear.

rcarter1
07-04-2014, 10:50 PM
I wanted Fenlon gone just as much as the next man and I was more than happy when Butcher got the job but duck me, it's just getting ridiculous now. We wouldn't be anywhere near this position IF Fenlon was here. ONE shot on target in 3 games, yeah, that's Pats fault :rolleyes:.

I can remember a lot of dull as ditchwater shot shy matches under Fenlon with this lot. I disagree that we wouldn't be in this position if Fenlon were still here. The wheels were coming off just about the time he left, and virtually no one at the time believed we were heading in the right direction. From day one vs Motherwell it looked clear that we were going to struggle to hurt teams. We had our moments with Fenlon, but we've also had one or two with Butcher. The bottom line is Fenlon left because he realised he had assembled a marginal bottom 6 outfit, when all the promises he had made were about getting the club back towards the top.

RIP Bestie
07-04-2014, 10:51 PM
i get what you are saying goblin but this route we are on is not working one win in 14 4 lost in a row confidence at the lowest ever with players and us fans we need a change now or we sail into possible every game lost for next 5 games.

The financial cost of not sorting this mistake now is worse than not dealing with it now.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. This appointment is a mistake. He has made us worse and thinking about how most felt about Fenlons team, that was a very difficult thing to do.

Ronniekirk
07-04-2014, 10:53 PM
This thread`s going to run and run... :greengrin

Assuming the op is right for a moment, how has a manager who has done much better elsewhere in the same league with a fraction of the resources suddenly turned into a bad manager after he has come here? BH, are you really saying that things are now at the stage where you think that TB is the latest in a long long list of rank managers at Hibs?

For weeks now, many on here, including BH, (if I remember correctly but happy to be corrected on that), have been saying that the problem was that TB was working with PF`s players. Now it`s TB who is the problem? I`m still not convinced that`s true. We were playing a resurgent Dons side tonight who never looked troubled. Our team has been rank for 7 years, Sparky apart, and I still partly think that it is this which TB is dealing with, not just the last few months or PF`s remnants, and that is why I am still not quite in agreement with the op.

However, I won`t deny that the evidence is piling up week after week after week, e.g. not a single shot on goal in tonight`s game is just horrifying to contemplate. If TB somehow turns out to be the latest managerial flop at ER, and still nobody has managed to suss out what the hell is wrong with our club, then the ramifications of that are frightening, because if that`s what happens, then I for one don`t see where we have left to go.

The evidence is mounting up and the pressure will intensify each time we play and don't take something from game .that will intensify further if we aren't scoring and hardly have shot on target .wont mention goal difference but we can't keep a clean sheet .

HibernianJK
07-04-2014, 10:53 PM
If we expected Pat Fenlon to be getting more out these players then IMO we should be expecting TB to be getting twice as much as PF. Excuse and excuse for Butcher.

Onion
07-04-2014, 10:54 PM
Hard to disagree with this thread. I wanted Ian Murray but was more than happy to embrace the general enthusiasm when TB arrived. The only logical conclusions to reach from that performance tonight is that TB has had a good look around and is now manufacturing an exit or that ICT was a fluke and he is indeed another dire Manager in the Easter road revolving door
:titanic:

Who the fans want or don't want is completely irrelevant if the man is a success. The Board's job is to find the RIGHT man for the job - plain and simple. At this stage, it might as well be a Hun-loving, ex-Yam who scored a barrel load of goals against Hibs who's appointed Hibs manager. If he was a success, the vest majority of fans would eventually accept him. I'm fed up with Hibs fans say "I also thought he was the right man" so that's ok.

Petrie's job is to appoint the right man - plain and simple. God help him if he's made another blunder.

Casper
07-04-2014, 10:54 PM
I don't know mate, it would certainly make me feel alot better seeing these mistakes get hammered :greengrin

Jokes aside though, i think Terry is the man to take us forward BUT I'm just mighty worried that we're destined for that 11th place. Defending like we do, a midfield which is softer than a bairns wet nappy and nowt up front. Recipe for disaster. Roll on the end of the season and fingers crossed 10th place or above.

This


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Ronniekirk
07-04-2014, 10:54 PM
I agree with this wholeheartedly. This appointment is a mistake. He has made us worse and thinking about how most felt about Fenlons team, that was a very difficult thing to do.
Were we not second top at one point under fenlon or am I just fantasising

stevejordan
07-04-2014, 11:00 PM
There`s a lot of evidence to suggest that you are right. I am personally at a loss to know what to think might be the answer. I`m just very tired of it. I support the club by paying for a tv season ticket and hibs tv xtra and I watch the game every week, and I go to as many games as I can when I am back over at Christmas, but I can only imagine what guys who make the effort to support the team home and away in person feel like. It`s actually very sad: so many die-hard fans who love the club and they are being shafted year after year in return for their loyalty and so many people who have loved the club all their lives are drifting away. I will say that I don`t believe that the current people in charge have the answers either. That much is clear.

we are all tired off this bl--dy mess manager after manager fails decent players are signed and fail why ?

Diclonius
07-04-2014, 11:00 PM
Yup, the manager - despite there being six (SIX) different ones - is solely to blame for every single mistake we've ever made over the last 7 years.

Yup, bin yet another ****ing manager and bring in Petrie and the players' latest scapegoat.

I really despair sometimes, really.

Onion
07-04-2014, 11:03 PM
I agree with this wholeheartedly. This appointment is a mistake. He has made us worse and thinking about how most felt about Fenlons team, that was a very difficult thing to do.

Petrie has run out of lives. If TB is a mistake, Petrie is history.

Diclonius
07-04-2014, 11:06 PM
Petrie has run out of lives. If TB is a mistake, Petrie is history.

He won't be though. He'll be quite happy to shift blame onto manager #5 and keep mugging us of our money.

There's a point where you start to question the morality of this kind of attitude.

The Green Goblin
07-04-2014, 11:08 PM
You speak a lot of truth in your post, and yes i have said before that Butcher needed his own player before we'd see an improvement. I think personally i had convinced myself Fenlons team was that poor, nobody could improve them, when if you sit down and think rationally. Fenlons team were poor, in fact i'd say they were the team thats b ored me the most in my years of watching us.

He walks and we pay compensation to ICT to bring in a manager who's supposed to be better, someone who should be able to get the players he inherited play similar but hopefully better.

After all he's a better manager no?

Yet what we currently have is an absolute shambles, he's made a team that were poor but competed in the middle of the league with an chance of top 6 and certainly not a team who'd be in a relegation battle, into one of the worst teams if not the worst team in this league.

Folk can deny it, but on current form we are the worst team in this league.

We have a manager who wouldnt know his best 11 if it battered him right on the end of his nose, and a stadium thats emptier and emptier as each week passes.

There`s a lot of truth in your post too and I agree with your view of PF`s team, and it`s as clear as day: he has taken the team and somehow made them poorer. That`s something that seemed impossible in the final days of Fenlon`s tenure, but here it is anyhow. And yes, on current form, we are easily the worst team in the league, which is why I really fear for where this season is going to end up

The Green Goblin
07-04-2014, 11:11 PM
we are all tired off this bl--dy mess manager after manager fails decent players are signed and fail why ?

I don`t know but the common denominator throughout it all has been Petrie. If I were to start somewhere, it would be there...

basehibby
07-04-2014, 11:17 PM
Fenlon had this bunch of crap playing some sort of tune some of the time. Fenlon was useless, but we seem to have replaced him with someone worse.

Dont give me all this pish about him needing his own players, if we replace the manager we obviously are doing it with someone we think is better.

And if he's better, he should be able to get those players he's inherited to play better, be better organised and get better results.

Well butcher cant, he's another huddy to add to the list.

Well done Petrie, you are a clown.

But... surely as he was the overwhelming favourite choice that makes us a bunch of clowns as well?!?

1875STEVE
07-04-2014, 11:34 PM
Yup, the manager - despite there being six (SIX) different ones - is solely to blame for every single mistake we've ever made over the last 7 years.

Yup, bin yet another ****ing manager and bring in Petrie and the players' latest scapegoat.

I really despair sometimes, really.

This 1000%.

sven nil
08-04-2014, 12:37 AM
If any managerial change is to be made , it should be done once season finishes . No waiting till November . A new manager with new ideas will créate interest and sell tickets and will attract new players ( a lot of players in Europe don`t finish their season till the end od June even with World Cup on ) .
Disagree mate get shot of them today and get mcleish or billy davies in the morn,It might be expensive but the boost in season ticket sales would offset additional costs

or am i just a dreamer!

eggbamyasi
08-04-2014, 02:19 AM
Some posts on here are just daft . Hope this thread is stored . I suppose there is absolutely no chance what so ever in any way the current manager could have a good pre season, sign 5/6 players or more due to the freed up wages with players leaving and or a player budget of sorts . Player's he might even be talking to now or even since jan . Get a squad together that are motivated and sign because of the manager, play the style he wants and like the formation he wants and have the work ethic he needs . And we kick off the season strongly and have a real good go at things league , cups . Then having had a decent first full season he then brings more players to add to a team that he is slowly over time building himself then the following season be properly challenging for top 3/4 and for cups . Where hibs should be ? Tbh thats just madness me thinking like that . Truely impossible to even imagine that scenario ................ in reality best thing to do is let this manager take over mid season with someone else's team full of someone else's players who were playing really poorly in a disjointed squad which lacked proper players for positions needed , and lacked width and pace and goals . Then after 5/6 month after giving him a 3 yr contract get him to **** , sack him swiftly ............. then start again ........ thats the way to go defo ..................makes perfect sense and through history always works well .

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macd123
08-04-2014, 02:28 AM
3

Given pat had to go for taking us from 11th to 7th to 5th terry needs to get us into the top 4 next year. I wanted pat to stay but now we have terry i would rather he was given 3 years at least. You can't achieve anything by changing manager every year.

Centre Hawf
08-04-2014, 03:13 AM
**** it, can we get in on the liquidation action as well? Sick of this pish, but I suppose I'll go to the next game... Just incase.:rolleyes:

GreenLake
08-04-2014, 03:25 AM
I think Butcher has got problems using his methods with this squad but nobody is too surprised by that after the state Fenlon brought us to. I see a team lost in confidence and witless about how to play the way Butcher wants them to. The biggest problem is lack of quality in my view. Look at balls that randomly land near a Hibs player. The first touch is a brick and the second touch is a tackle. First time layoffs from interceptions are not accurate and the recipient lacks the skill to improvise. Aberdeen grasped those random balls much better than we did. I'm not sure subs would have changed anything in the game tonight but I will confess to being in a rage as to why 2 fresh sets of legs were not introduced at the 60 minute mark followed by Cummings for the last 15 or 20 minutes. How in the name of five forks was Watmore not brought on for Cairney after 60 minutes I don't know. Anyway, I don't want any other manager, even if his lack of changes bothers me and makes me think I am being short changed for my two subscriptions, donations and merchandize paid for to watch the team. I think any manager would struggle with this situation and it is good Butcher is picking the festering sore rather than bandaging it. Let's get rid of the scabs in the off season and get a few ringers in. Petrie, get a grip this summer or get tae.

Hibrandenburg
08-04-2014, 06:29 AM
Wish I'd invested in adult pampers shares yesterday. Sales must be going through the roof.

We're expecting Butcher to win the Grand National with donkeys. Yes the results are catastrophic, the moral is at rock bottom and watching this team is eye bleedingly boring, but FFS he's inherited the worst team in my lifetime. Can't believe folks are already calling for his head before he's even had the chance to put HIS team together. If Butcher goes then a lot of these players will still be here next season, is this what we want?

sean
08-04-2014, 07:48 AM
I think Butcher has got problems using his methods with this squad but nobody is too surprised by that after the state Fenlon brought us to. I see a team lost in confidence and witless about how to play the way Butcher wants them to. The biggest problem is lack of quality in my view. Look at balls that randomly land near a Hibs player. The first touch is a brick and the second touch is a tackle. First time layoffs from interceptions are not accurate and the recipient lacks the skill to improvise. Aberdeen grasped those random balls much better than we did. I'm not sure subs would have changed anything in the game tonight but I will confess to being in a rage as to why 2 fresh sets of legs were not introduced at the 60 minute mark followed by Cummings for the last 15 or 20 minutes. How in the name of five forks was Watmore not brought on for Cairney after 60 minutes I don't know. Anyway, I don't want any other manager, even if his lack of changes bothers me and makes me think I am being short changed for my two subscriptions, donations and merchandize paid for to watch the team. I think any manager would struggle with this situation and it is good Butcher is picking the festering sore rather than bandaging it. Let's get rid of the scabs in the off season and get a few ringers in. Petrie, get a grip this summer or get tae.

I am totally bemused at what pat Fenlon has even got to do with this nonsense.

People keep mentioning it's fenland team or fenlons players ?

Kev Thomson? Liam Craig? Paul heffernann ?
These guys are proven SPL players, they weren't nobody's from league 2 in England or some second rate league abroad.

Terry butchers has had 22 matches in charge and won 4. No matter the players , the club or the situation people have to see he is FAILING.

Any new manager should always try to inspire, motivate and install belief into a struggling team. He and his assistant haven't done that and no one can argue with that.

He has made a 6/7 placed team a potential relegated one, that's not the boards or the previous managers problem.

Captain Trips
08-04-2014, 08:00 AM
I did not expect TB to have us winning game after game he inherited a bad team however I do expect the new manager to better with these players if he is better. I have seen nothing to suggest that TB is even equal to PF. Nothing to suggest he is right to build. Wrong un again Rod.

blackpoolhibs
08-04-2014, 08:46 AM
Wish I'd invested in adult pampers shares yesterday. Sales must be going through the roof.

We're expecting Butcher to win the Grand National with donkeys. Yes the results are catastrophic, the moral is at rock bottom and watching this team is eye bleedingly boring, but FFS he's inherited the worst team in my lifetime. Can't believe folks are already calling for his head before he's even had the chance to put HIS team together. If Butcher goes then a lot of these players will still be here next season, is this what we want?

Fenlon won a few grade 3 races with these duds, Butcher couldn't win a seller?:rolleyes:

Centre Hawf
08-04-2014, 08:54 AM
FFS he's inherited the worst team in my lifetime.

You're telling me Fenlon left the squad WORSE than when he arrived?

stevejordan
08-04-2014, 08:59 AM
I am totally bemused at what pat Fenlon has even got to do with this nonsense.

People keep mentioning it's fenland team or fenlons players ?

Kev Thomson? Liam Craig? Paul heffernann ?
These guys are proven SPL players, they weren't nobody's from league 2 in England or some second rate league abroad.

Terry butchers has had 22 matches in charge and won 4. No matter the players , the club or the situation people have to see he is FAILING.

Any new manager should always try to inspire, motivate and install belief into a struggling team. He and his assistant haven't done that and no one can argue with that.

He has made a 6/7 placed team a potential relegated one, that's not the boards or the previous managers problem.


4 wins in 22 is not what we thought we were getting when he was brought in he seems to be struggling with the expectations and pressure which has just got ramped up even more.
We cant score we cant keep clean sheets players look un interested no motivation at least under Paddy we would pull out a win every 3 games or so and the players seemed to enjoy playing for him.
Something seems wrong though as everything was gong great untill the Dundee United game away its really went bad since that game we have 5 games left now to avoid the play off nightmare the last 4 games give us a great chance to pick up points so lets keep a cool head even if we get beat against St Mirren away.

blackpoolhibs
08-04-2014, 09:10 AM
4 wins in 22 is not what we thought we were getting when he was brought in he seems to be struggling with the expectations and pressure which has just got ramped up even more.
We cant score we cant keep clean sheets players look un interested no motivation at least under Paddy we would pull out a win every 3 games or so and the players seemed to enjoy playing for him.
Something seems wrong though as everything was gong great untill the Dundee United game away its really went bad since that game we have 5 games left now to avoid the play off nightmare the last 4 games give us a great chance to pick up points so lets keep a cool head even if we get beat against St Mirren away.

We had a middle of the table team who were boring the pants off of 99% of the support, so much so crowds were plummeting. Fenlon walks, and our esteemed leader brings in a supposedly better manager who he paid compensation for to sort us out.

Its not unreasonable to expect this supposedly better manager to get the same players plus 3 additions to play just as good and probably a little better, after all Butcher is a better manager right?

What we dont expect is him to completely deflate the squad, ignore players who are playing well and get a team that while no world beaters, turn them into a team fighting a real relegation battle.


What a motivator this man has turned out to be, the guy from breakfast telly in the 80s would have done better.

Pray4Marc
08-04-2014, 09:21 AM
Never thought id say this, but the football was better under Fenlon.

southsider
08-04-2014, 09:21 AM
Fenlon won a few grade 3 races with these duds, Butcher couldn't win a seller?:rolleyes:
Agreed. Butchers tactics make Fenlon look like Pep Gardiola. Get him and Malpas back up the road now.

Bobby's Cinema
08-04-2014, 09:22 AM
Can't blame Petrie for this one. Most of us wanted Butcher.

Too hasty getting rid of Fenlon IMO. Easy to say in hindsight of course
Absolutely no chance.

jacomo
08-04-2014, 09:24 AM
Fenlon was seriously thinking about leaving long before the losses to hearts and aberdeen that made the pressure from fans overwhelming

Why? Was he unhappy / homesick, because he never seemed fully committed to Edinburgh.

heretoday
08-04-2014, 09:26 AM
Never thought id say this, but the football was better under Fenlon.



:agree: Maybe the players felt able to express themselves better under PF. Maybe they have seen through all Butcher's bluster and don't have any faith in him.

Who knows?

jacomo
08-04-2014, 09:27 AM
My take on this is that despite his shortcomings Fenlon would have had us clear of relegation fight, but not by much. That's not to say change was not needed - it was. Fenlon had run his course. We were always one game away from a 7-0 massacre under Fenlon and he had no long term future at Hibs.

Butcher has turned out to be a huge disappointment so far. Yes, his saving grace is that he can claim these are Fenlon's players (and they are), but the results, attitude, set up, musical chairs and the way he has publicly managed his players has not filled me with confidence. Relegation would be an unmitigated disaster for Hibs and IMHO Butcher & Malpas would have to take a fair amount of blame for that. Just have to hope they find a magic potion and we can move on.

:agree:

Very well reasoned post. If we do go down, Butcher & Malpas become untenable IMO - they can't survive that.

However, TB has made every sign of embracing Hibs and moving to East Lothian. We just have to hope that this is the darkness before the dawn.

Bobby's Cinema
08-04-2014, 09:36 AM
We had a middle of the table team who were boring the pants off of 99% of the support, so much so crowds were plummeting. Fenlon walks, and our esteemed leader brings in a supposedly better manager who he paid compensation for to sort us out.

Its not unreasonable to expect this supposedly better manager to get the same players plus 3 additions to play just as good and probably a little better, after all Butcher is a better manager right?

What we dont expect is him to completely deflate the squad, ignore players who are playing well and get a team that while no world beaters, turn them into a team fighting a real relegation battle.


What a motivator this man has turned out to be, the guy from breakfast telly in the 80s would have done better.
:agree: There is no consistency in his selection. He says this himself from STV today. Craig is captain one week, dropped the next.

Let's strap the armband on Stevenson and drop the arrogance that sees one of our best players out of the squad.

And for good measure, if there is a plan or a style of football which is supposedly "trying to get crosses into the box" then I fail to see it.

I'll not be calling for the managers head but he is equally culpable as this team at the minute.

Lester B
08-04-2014, 09:43 AM
Wish I'd invested in adult pampers shares yesterday. Sales must be going through the roof.

We're expecting Butcher to win the Grand National with donkeys. Yes the results are catastrophic, the moral is at rock bottom and watching this team is eye bleedingly boring, but FFS he's inherited the worst team in my lifetime. Can't believe folks are already calling for his head before he's even had the chance to put HIS team together. If Butcher goes then a lot of these players will still be here next season, is this what we want?

No. We are expecting a team to play with at least some improvement or even just some idea of how to play. Last night was the worst so far. We are getting worse not better. That isn't the worst team player by player in your lifetime but as group he now has them playing like it

Lester B
08-04-2014, 09:45 AM
We had a middle of the table team who were boring the pants off of 99% of the support, so much so crowds were plummeting. Fenlon walks, and our esteemed leader brings in a supposedly better manager who he paid compensation for to sort us out.

Its not unreasonable to expect this supposedly better manager to get the same players plus 3 additions to play just as good and probably a little better, after all Butcher is a better manager right?

What we dont expect is him to completely deflate the squad, ignore players who are playing well and get a team that while no world beaters, turn them into a team fighting a real relegation battle.


What a motivator this man has turned out to be, the guy from breakfast telly in the 80s would have done better.

:top marks Summed up beautifully sir

eggbamyasi
08-04-2014, 11:31 AM
Wish I'd invested in adult pampers shares yesterday. Sales must be going through the roof.

We're expecting Butcher to win the Grand National with donkeys. Yes the results are catastrophic, the moral is at rock bottom and watching this team is eye bleedingly boring, but FFS he's inherited the worst team in my lifetime. Can't believe folks are already calling for his head before he's even had the chance to put HIS team together. If Butcher goes then a lot of these players will still be here next season, is this what we want?

Spot on

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

eggbamyasi
08-04-2014, 11:40 AM
:agree: Maybe the players felt able to express themselves better under PF. Maybe they have seen through all Butcher's bluster and don't have any faith in him.

Who knows?

Omg ...... they were ****ing **** under fenlon . Were were terrible . Look back at the posts and threads for the first three months of this season !!!!! Butcher took over this terrible disjointed team . Got them playing well for first couple of months amazingly ( because they were ******g terrible under fenlon FACT ) then the true colours of a badly disjointed under manned lack of pace and correct positions and cover has started to show .butcher is struggling and imo desp to get to end of season so he can actually start his job properly .I think if fenlon stayed we qould be in exact same position as now if not worse . He would have been contiually hounded all season by the same people and morale would have been as low as ever . some people just want instant success .....were not a man city or chelsea . Give our new guys time ffs give them there contract then see where we are .

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BOB MARLEYS DUG
08-04-2014, 02:57 PM
Calderwood from 1st Feb 2011 to split: WWWWWDDLWL

Butcher 1st Feb to split: LWDLDDLLLL


:rolleyes:

stevejordan
08-04-2014, 03:04 PM
We had a middle of the table team who were boring the pants off of 99% of the support, so much so crowds were plummeting. Fenlon walks, and our esteemed leader brings in a supposedly better manager who he paid compensation for to sort us out.

Its not unreasonable to expect this supposedly better manager to get the same players plus 3 additions to play just as good and probably a little better, after all Butcher is a better manager right?

What we dont expect is him to completely deflate the squad, ignore players who are playing well and get a team that while no world beaters, turn them into a team fighting a real relegation battle.


What a motivator this man has turned out to be, the guy from breakfast telly in the 80s would have done better.

It does look like we have another Dud at the helm and with stories going around now about him loosing the dresing room and bizare team talks it really does not look like things are going to get any better.

Marty-Hibee
08-04-2014, 03:17 PM
It does look like we have another Dud at the helm and with stories going around now about him loosing the dresing room and bizare team talks it really does not look like things are going to get any better.


Don't buy into losing the dressing room as an excuse. Regardless of who you play for (manager/club), losing a football game should be the worst feeling in the world as a professional. I played football most of my teens and I can't begin to explain how many times my Saturdays were ruined when I was beat. I'd hope our players feel the same.

As for Butcher - yes, it's been God awful for the best part of his tenure, but anyone saying Fenlon was better are off their head. We are going at the rate we are because of the (majority of) players on the park, and their lack of ability. Fenlon/Butcher/Fergie/Mourinho would be going down a very, very similar route because (again, the majority) of the players aren't able to compete on footballing terms.

I think we will avoid the playoffs (by a bawhair), and then I've got every confidence Terry will have us in the top 6 next season.

The Green Goblin
08-04-2014, 03:30 PM
Don't buy into losing the dressing room as an excuse. Regardless of who you play for (manager/club), losing a football game should be the worst feeling in the world as a professional. I played football most of my teens and I can't begin to explain how many times my Saturdays were ruined when I was beat. I'd hope our players feel the same.

As for Butcher - yes, it's been God awful for the best part of his tenure, but anyone saying Fenlon was better are off their head. We are going at the rate we are because of the (majority of) players on the park, and their lack of ability. Fenlon/Butcher/Fergie/Mourinho would be going down a very, very similar route because (again, the majority) of the players aren't able to compete on footballing terms.

I think we will avoid the playoffs (by a bawhair), and then I've got every confidence Terry will have us in the top 6 next season.


What do you base that optimism on though? What have you seen from the current manager, which makes you believe that he is capable of doing this?

Marty-Hibee
08-04-2014, 03:52 PM
What do you base that optimism on though? What have you seen from the current manager, which makes you believe that he is capable of doing this?


I've seen enough at Caley to go on. Yes that might have been lucky, but that's me, I'm going with the optimistic view on things, as hard as that is at the moment! I don't think he's setting up our sides to play the way they are, I suppose that could be a strike against him, but I can't believe he's instructing Nelson/McGivern to hump the ball forward at any given opportunity. The players need to take far more responsibility than I can see from them.

Who would you want in to replace him though? This is where sacking him doesn't fit for me. We clearly don't have the funds to get majorly high profile management.

yekimevol
08-04-2014, 08:08 PM
Atleast Fenlon got these players playing and got more out of them. They all look like headless chickens.

:top marks:top marks:top marks

The Green Goblin
08-04-2014, 08:27 PM
I've seen enough at Caley to go on. Yes that might have been lucky, but that's me, I'm going with the optimistic view on things, as hard as that is at the moment! I don't think he's setting up our sides to play the way they are, I suppose that could be a strike against him, but I can't believe he's instructing Nelson/McGivern to hump the ball forward at any given opportunity. The players need to take far more responsibility than I can see from them.

Who would you want in to replace him though? This is where sacking him doesn't fit for me. We clearly don't have the funds to get majorly high profile management.

I am not yet of the opinion that he should go (as posted earlier on the thread) but it is becoming very difficult to defend him. Beyond that, there's the unthinkable idea that he too might bomb at Hibs. It's a total nightmare. I think the most frustrating thing is that nobody knows for certain what has caused this situation of successive managers failing and the club sinking towards the next division down. There are various theories and although I'm personally coming more and more round to the idea that Petrie, as the common denominator and man in charge, is more responsible for it than most, the fact is nobody can say for certain, which basically means things will go on like this for the forseeable future.

Albion Hibs
08-04-2014, 08:52 PM
Wish I'd invested in adult pampers shares yesterday. Sales must be going through the roof.

We're expecting Butcher to win the Grand National with donkeys. Yes the results are catastrophic, the moral is at rock bottom and watching this team is eye bleedingly boring, but FFS he's inherited the worst team in my lifetime. Can't believe folks are already calling for his head before he's even had the chance to put HIS team together. If Butcher goes then a lot of these players will still be here next season, is this what we want?

Agreed, I find it remarkable that some on here are looking back at fenlon with a tear in their eye at the fact he has gone. Fenlon inherited a team in November of a calendar year and we finished 2nd bottom of the league...followed by of course a cup final. The cry then was 'wait till he has his own team' well there you go, we now gave it. Why isn't TB being afforded the same chance, to build a decent team.

We we now have the team that we so badly wanted to let fenlon build, and they are the problem here. IMO it us ridiculous that some are saying it is butchers fault that the players are not motivated, and that the dressing room is against him following comments in the media - these players play for hibs, and they should surely have enough self respect to play for themselves. If I was to fall out with my boss I would not stop working till he was sacked, and I find it hard to believe that others would.

Albion Hibs
08-04-2014, 08:56 PM
What do you base that optimism on though? What have you seen from the current manager, which makes you believe that he is capable of doing this?

the fact he built a team in this league which was 2nd when he left and finished 3rd the season before?

HappyAsHellas
08-04-2014, 09:08 PM
Alex Ferguson - 10 years to turn round Man. Utd.

Terry Butcher - expected to turn round Hibs in 5 months?

Let's stop the bed wetting, concentrate on what needs to be done, and look forward to rebuilding a team that will see us into the future at the right end of the league. Keep the Faith people........

lobster
08-04-2014, 09:17 PM
Who the fans want or don't want is completely irrelevant if the man is a success. The Board's job is to find the RIGHT man for the job - plain and simple. At this stage, it might as well be a Hun-loving, ex-Yam who scored a barrel load of goals against Hibs who's appointed Hibs manager. If he was a success, the vest majority of fans would eventually accept him. I'm fed up with Hibs fans say "I also thought he was the right man" so that's ok.

Petrie's job is to appoint the right man - plain and simple. God help him if he's made another blunder.

Depends how you define 'success' and the 'right man'. The reason i think it should've been Murray is that he is doing a remarkable job at Dumbarton not just that he is a former son so to speak. For me success is playing attractive attacking football and winning games. Clearly the Board and Petrie are failing miserably in their task. Our expectations are so reduced now that it seems we'd accept hoofball if it means winning games and unfortunately that seems the future under TB.
Go on SFA give Petrie the cosy job he's after FFS.

The Sea-gull
10-04-2014, 11:57 AM
Must say as one of the ones who didn't take to Fenlon and was happy at the logic for choosing Butcher, I'm more than a bit dissappointed with the way things are going.

My take on Pat was always that he was not the right man, did not have the pedigree and experience we needed but like any manager he deserved time and support. I never really took to him and started to run out of patience after Malmo and the first derby defeat of the season (the mere fact that I am having to say first is a disgrace as it means we have lost to that mob more than once when they are as bad as they have ever been!) but even then I maintained i would grudgingly give him until end of season and if he didn't have us top 6 minimum he should then have been punted. When Pat left, I actually didn't really want him gone at that moment (would have still given him till end of season) but feeling was so strong against him by then that he had just lost one high profile game too many.

We got Butcher and I thought he was a good choice. My expectations for him were that he could get us top 6 this season, esp with support to make some signings in Jan (he didn't get that but I have gone over my feelings on that elsewhere) but even if we didn't get top 6 then I would have been ok with that recognising that he really needed a summer to get his own stamp on the team.

I certainly never expected Butcher to handle things so badly that he has made us worse but am hopeful it is just a temporary situation. I think terrible decisions were made in January in terms of signings (lack of quality and longer term focus) and who knows how much of that was down to him but if he elected not to make a couple of better signings then he has to take some accountability for that. He also has to take responsibility for the man management of the squad and his tactical decisions. I know a manager needs his own tools to work with but he should be doing a bit better than he has with those he was left with. He has taken what was IMHO a bottom of the top 6/top of the bottom 6 level squad and turned them to play off scrappers and that is not Pat's fault.

The decision to sack Pat was correct. I don't think Pat had the confidence of the support, the tactical skills, the mentality to get us firing long term and I doubt we'd ever have done much more than bobble about mid table under him. I also doubt that we would have been anywhere near the play off this season under Pat. I suspcet we would still be about where we are now in terms of league placing but enough clear of the bottom as the players would have given a bit more for Pat.

The decision to sack Pat was not wrong but the jury is out on decision to whether to sack him when we did and replace him with who we did is out. I'm not saying Butcher out and I'm not saying I have lost all faith in him but I am dissappointed thus far and think he has a lot of work to do over the summer and if things don't go well into next season (whatever league we are in), provided he has been given adequate funds to make changes by the board, it won't be long before the fans are rightly on his back and calling for him to go.

jacomo
10-04-2014, 12:10 PM
if things don't go well into next season (whatever league we are in), provided he has been given adequate funds to make changes by the board, it won't be long before the fans are rightly on his back and calling for him to go.

If we get relegated, TB and MM have to walk IMO. We were not in a crisis situation when they joined us and can have no excuses.

I think it's unlikely that will happen and hopefully they'll be working hard in the summer to turn things around. But things really need to pick up. A manager must be a pragmatist as well as having a vision: that means getting the best out of the resources at their disposal.

stantonhibby
10-04-2014, 12:14 PM
Must say as one of the ones who didn't take to Fenlon and was happy at the logic for choosing Butcher, I'm more than a bit dissappointed with the way things are going.

My take on Pat was always that he was not the right man, did not have the pedigree and experience we needed but like any manager he deserved time and support. I never really took to him and started to run out of patience after Malmo and the first derby defeat of the season (the mere fact that I am having to say first is a disgrace as it means we have lost to that mob more than once when they are as bad as they have ever been!) but even then I maintained i would grudgingly give him until end of season and if he didn't have us top 6 minimum he should then have been punted. When Pat left, I actually didn't really want him gone at that moment (would have still given him till end of season) but feeling was so strong against him by then that he had just lost one high profile game too many.

We got Butcher and I thought he was a good choice. My expectations for him were that he could get us top 6 this season, esp with support to make some signings in Jan (he didn't get that but I have gone over my feelings on that elsewhere) but even if we didn't get top 6 then I would have been ok with that recognising that he really needed a summer to get his own stamp on the team.

I certainly never expected Butcher to handle things so badly that he has made us worse but am hopeful it is just a temporary situation. I think terrible decisions were made in January in terms of signings (lack of quality and longer term focus) and who knows how much of that was down to him but if he elected not to make a couple of better signings then he has to take some accountability for that. He also has to take responsibility for the man management of the squad and his tactical decisions. I know a manager needs his own tools to work with but he should be doing a bit better than he has with those he was left with. He has taken what was IMHO a bottom of the top 6/top of the bottom 6 level squad and turned them to play off scrappers and that is not Pat's fault.

The decision to sack Pat was correct. I don't think Pat had the confidence of the support, the tactical skills, the mentality to get us firing long term and I doubt we'd ever have done much more than bobble about mid table under him. I also doubt that we would have been anywhere near the play off this season under Pat. I suspcet we would still be about where we are now in terms of league placing but enough clear of the bottom as the players would have given a bit more for Pat.

The decision to sack Pat was not wrong but the jury is out on decision to whether to sack him when we did and replace him with who we did is out. I'm not saying Butcher out and I'm not saying I have lost all faith in him but I am dissappointed thus far and think he has a lot of work to do over the summer and if things don't go well into next season (whatever league we are in), provided he has been given adequate funds to make changes by the board, it won't be long before the fans are rightly on his back and calling for him to go.


Can't really argue with any of that.

After THAT final Fenlon appeared to have steadied the ship last season with us going unbeaten against them in 5 games and taking us to another final, albeit the performance was again very disappointing. The footy was still poor but he appeared to have bought himself some time to see what he could do this season. However he managed spectacularly to heap the pressure back on big style with the Malmo debacle and then losing to Hearts early doors. Losing to them again in the cup together with the indifferent league results meant his time was up.
Like you I assumed Butcher would have us top 6 or thereabouts and after the first 9 or 10 games it did seem as though he had managed to galvanise us a bit. But he has now managed to put the presssure on himself with this horrific run and his honeymoon period is over before it has really begun ! My fear is that if we get off to a sluggish start next season (with his own players) the knives will not need much sharpening before coming out ! ( Assuming we stay up of course)

NAE NOOKIE
10-04-2014, 05:55 PM
I'm prepared to grit my teeth and wait until next season before utter panic sets in. Unless we go down of course.

But the subs on Monday left me baffled as did the timing of them ..... I've lost count of the number of games this season where we have barely managed a shot on goal ... Jamie Langfield could have went for chips on Monday night.

I'm stumped.

Hibernia&Alba
10-04-2014, 07:20 PM
If we get relegated, TB and MM have to walk IMO. We were not in a crisis situation when they joined us and can have no excuses.

I think it's unlikely that will happen and hopefully they'll be working hard in the summer to turn things around. But things really need to pick up. A manager must be a pragmatist as well as having a vision: that means getting the best out of the resources at their disposal.


One hundred per cent, and the entire board too. We couldn't put up with that. I don't think it will happen, but we need a win very soon.

southsider
10-04-2014, 08:26 PM
When i first started going to ER (about 50 years ago now !), you could name the team and knew what subs would come in if there was injuries and/os players suspended. Now with some guys you could walk past in the street not knowing who they were. How many players have we had in the last 3 or 4 years at ER ? 50 ? 60 ? 70 ? They seem to come and go like snow off a dike. We need to get skillful, pacy local/scots kids in and mould them into a side to challenge teams in the top part of this league instead of having wage thieves who only drag us down into the mire. Easier said than done i know but the kids are there we only have to find them first.

Bronson
10-04-2014, 09:05 PM
Think some of us forget Fenlon built this team. The one with no width, no pace, no balance, no particular goal threat and no guts.

There is only so much Butcher can do until Summer, i will be reserving judgement on him and Malpas for next season.

Itsnoteasy
10-04-2014, 09:12 PM
When i first started going to ER (about 50 years ago now !), you could name the team and knew what subs would come in if there was injuries and/os players suspended. Now with some guys you could walk past in the street not knowing who they were. How many players have we had in the last 3 or 4 years at ER ? 50 ? 60 ? 70 ? They seem to come and go like snow off a dike. We need to get skillful, pacy local/scots kids in and mould them into a side to challenge teams in the top part of this league instead of having wage thieves who only drag us down into the mire. Easier said than done i know but the kids are there we only have to find them first.

They have a good season and they get sold. No loyalty these days.

DTS
10-04-2014, 09:14 PM
The way I see it is that Fenlon brought players in to make us solid and hard to beat almost a if we don't concede we can't lose the game mentality, however now under butcher he is trying to play a different style of football with the same players and I'm left wondering how long it will take butcher to realise he has to change his ways and set the team up to there strengths or we are going down

Saorsa
10-04-2014, 09:19 PM
The way I see it is that Fenlon brought players in to make us solid and hard to beat almost a if we don't concede we can't lose the game mentality, however now under butcher he is trying to play a different style of football with the same players and I'm left wondering how long it will take butcher to realise he has to change his ways and set the team up to there strengths or we are going down:agree: He shouldnae be trying tae play his style of fitba with these players, he should be playing tae their strengths. He can play his style when he gets his players, things simply aren't working just now and he needs tae get tae grips with that before it's too late.

blackpoolhibs
10-04-2014, 09:20 PM
:agree: He shouldnae be trying tae play his style of fitba with these players, he should be playing tae their strengths. He can play his style when he gets his players, things simply aren't working just now and he needs tae get tae grips with that before it's too late.

He's too bloody stubborn, and does not give a toss about our club.:rolleyes:

Danderhall Hibs
10-04-2014, 09:27 PM
:agree: He shouldnae be trying tae play his style of fitba with these players, he should be playing tae their strengths. He can play his style when he gets his players, things simply aren't working just now and he needs tae get tae grips with that before it's too late.

Any idea what those strengths are Dan?

DTS
10-04-2014, 09:30 PM
:agree: He shouldnae be trying tae play his style of fitba with these players, he should be playing tae their strengths. He can play his style when he gets his players, things simply aren't working just now and he needs tae get tae grips with that before it's too late.

100% agree I don't know if he is so close minded that he refuses to play any other way than what he wants to and won't change, if that's the case he needs to stop being so stubborn and realise that he is in charge of a big club that are on a slippery slope that he needs to stop

Stevie Reid
10-04-2014, 09:40 PM
When we won the three league games in a row at Christmas - when we were playing well and creating lots of chances - we had the same starting line up each game. Jason Cummings started all three, but was dropped for the next game, which we drew. There was no reason to change things but Butcher did (he may possibly argue that it was too many games for a youngster over a short spell).

The last decent wee spell that we had recently was four points from two games away to Killie and home to RC, where we weren't amazing, but certainly created a lot of chances. Handling and Stanton played well in both games, yet Handling was dropped for Craig in the next game, with Stanton moved up front. Again, no good reason to change, we had performed better without our captain in the side.

Since then he has made a whole raft of changes every single game, and we are suffering badly for it. I have very little faith in him at the moment.

Scottie
10-04-2014, 09:42 PM
He's too bloody stubborn, and does not give a toss about our club.:rolleyes:
What makes you think he dosen't give a toss ? :rolleyes:

to be honest I think he's just way out of his depth as he's never had a club with expectations as high as ours. Just hope he has the ability to get us the couple of wins we need to stay up.

lord bunberry
10-04-2014, 09:56 PM
What makes you think he dosen't give a toss ? :rolleyes:

to be honest I think he's just way out of his depth as he's never had a club with expectations as high as ours. Just hope he has the ability to get us the couple of wins we need to stay up.

He managed Sunderland, I would imagine their expectations were quite high.

The Green Goblin
10-04-2014, 10:05 PM
He's too bloody stubborn, and does not give a toss about our club.:rolleyes:

A bit harsh BH no? I suspect that if he didn`t care, he wouldn`t look like he has aged about 10 years since joning us.

Dashing Bob S
10-04-2014, 10:05 PM
:agree: He shouldnae be trying tae play his style of fitba with these players, he should be playing tae their strengths. He can play his style when he gets his players, things simply aren't working just now and he needs tae get tae grips with that before it's too late.

I think is basically where the problem lies. He's taken a very poor footballing side, and made them totally abysmal shi** by playing them in a system/style of football which they are even less suited for than the previous one.

Scottie
10-04-2014, 10:06 PM
He managed Sunderland, I would imagine their expectations were quite high.
Fair point bonnie lad but how did he do there ?

When there is no pressure at a club it's easier to achieve much the same in any walk of life. Only the best succeed and at the mo he's no succeeding at Hibs.

I do believe he does give a toss but I fear he's out of his depth at Hibs like he was at Sunderland

Captain Trips
10-04-2014, 10:48 PM
Any manager coming into a club can and will make mistakes, they can make mistakes tactically and also in transfer market. All things being equal my expectations on a manager signing say 6 players I would think getting 4 right is not bad. No manager makes all his signings work.

However all things are not equal this appointment after whats gone before leaves little if no room for error tactics and selections have to be spot on. Due to wasted time and money over last few seasons all TBs signings have to be spot on.

I felt the day PF left we had to bring in a person that could do this tough ask and IMO I just didn't think TB was the answer, we are in a position I do not think we needed to be in. I was looking for 2/3 more wins from the 20 games played not a big ask for me. I cannot put my finger on it but I feel the same way now as I felt after watching CCs first games that something isnt right and it will not end well. I do not think we will be relegated or need to win a playoff I just think the task is to much for TB as he cannot get a tune going now and he really needed to.

jacomo
10-04-2014, 10:51 PM
He's too bloody stubborn, and does not give a toss about our club.:rolleyes:

Gonna expand, or just hit and run?

Saorsa
10-04-2014, 11:49 PM
Any idea what those strengths are Dan?I had a reply typed out for this but when I was switching between browser tabs I clicked the X and closed the tab by mistake :rolleyes: :greengrin and I cannae be ersed typing it all out again. I'll say this though, with a few of them it's pretty hard tae even guess. :greengrin



One of the obvious ones is Craig though, he wisnae doing too bad until TB decided tae play him deeper, looks like he's lost confidence and form with it. Taiwo and Thomson both dae that better and it should always have been one of them, yet one was telt he wisnae wanted and got back because of injury problems/suspensions and the other disnae get a game, whatever the reason.


These players were mostly signed by Fenlon and however bad they were at his game TB has taken them and made them worse trying tae play his. I bet naebody reckoned that was possible.

sleeping giant
10-04-2014, 11:55 PM
I had a reply typed out for this but when I was switching between browser tabs I clicked the X and closed the tab by mistake :rolleyes: :greengrin and I cannae be ersed typing it all out again. I'll say this though, with a few of them it's pretty hard tae even guess. :greengrin



One of the obvious ones is Craig though, he wisnae doing too bad until TB decided tae play him deeper, looks like he's lost confidence and form with it. Taiwo and Thomson both dae that better and it should always have been one of them, yet one was telt he wisnae wanted and got back because of injury problems and the other disnae get a game, whatever the reason.
This is the one that troubles me. That guy can score goals. Im sure he is our top scorer. I would personally play him as a forward attacking midfielder but i dont think we have the other players to compliment the required formation.

I will say it now , I like Liam Craig and think he could be a very good player for us.

BVB Hibs
11-04-2014, 12:58 AM
I'll point out that I was to the end a Pat Fenlon supporter, and got jeered for it on here on more than one occasion. Make of that what you wish. What I will say is that when we were playing under PF, there was a general consensus on the forum that this was a squad that would be making top the 4 with any other man in charge. Fenlon walks, and after a good first few games in charge we're suddenly relegation candidates in a poor league. That says a lot for the skill of Pat Fenlon as a manger if I'm honest, he got a muck squad to a solid mid table spot.

Some say PF didn't improve us this season, and left a horrible squad. I think we're forgetting the players we were dealing with in his first full season in charge. The side was rank rotten, which was covered up in a large part by the undeniable quality of Leigh Griffiths and a very solid Claros in the holding role. Pat loses his 2 best players, yet at the time he left we were still in a higher position than we had finished the previous season. That to me says he improved his squad, and I had a firm belief with continued support he would have continued to improve the squad further. People talk about high player turnover, but to me that's fine. It's about constant improvement, Fenlon did sign some awful players but he did manage to promote some good youngsters and overall the squad improved for me. At our level we're never going to sign a perfect manager, and Fenlons work on the transfer market was definitely a weakness. But considering the unbalanced nature of the squad he brought together, he made it work for him, and I feel he continued to improve it and learn from mistakes.

For me though the big difference has been consistency. I'll be the first to admit that PF didn't play enjoyable football. There were times I was wondering if he realised the midfield existed. But what has to be said is that he had the team grinding out results (Partick away being one of the main examples) and playing solidly. It may not have been spectacular but we weren't conceding many (7-0 aside) and as much as he got derided for playing for the draw, we'd not be in this mess with if we still used his defensive style. On top of that there are players who I question how they're professional footballers now, that played well under Fenlon. Craig was excellent, Nelson was unspectacular but solid, Taiwo held the middle together. A number of these players seem to have fallen to bits under Butcher.

The problem I have with Butcher is that there's no visible plan, no consistency and the players genuinely don't look like they want to be on the park. Butcher always talks about wanting to get the ball wide and then put crosses into the box, yet insists on playing Harris on the left flank. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if you put a very one footed player on the opposite flank, he won't be able to deliver that ball and will be forced to cut inside. Adding to that, we seem to be making 6 or 7 changes every game. That doesn't help anybody, players on the park almost look afraid to make a mistake under Butcher. I've no problem with players making mistakes, because for us to get goals we need to take risks, but players simply look too afraid to take the risk, limiting us to an absolute nothing style of play. Craig's the best example here. He's not suddenly turned into a bad player over the past 3 months. But he just doesn't look like he wants to be there, no longer thinks about what he's doing, and there's only one man at Hibernian FC I can blame for that.

I do hope Butcher turns it around, and I'm all about giving managers time. Maybe all he needs is to bring in his own squad of players and fit it around his style of play. However, his lack of adaptability, and the way he puts out an unmotivated team week after week after week doesn't really speak in his favour. However, I'm sick of hearing about how it'll all be better next season. We've dragged ourselves into a relegation dogfight we never should have been in. It's time for TB to get his finger out and show he cares about our football club. Find a way to put a motivated squad on the park, playing whatever brand of football that will keep us in the SPL. I don't even care about winning, even a team that looks like it wants to win will pick up enough points to stay up. If he keeps mucking about deriding the players and making ridiculous statements about the team in the media, he's going to lose all respect from me, and no amount of "he'll do better with his own squad" is going to get that back.

I'm going to calm down now, and apologise for putting you through that awful rant.

The Green Goblin
11-04-2014, 01:15 AM
I'll point out that I was to the end a Pat Fenlon supporter, and got jeered for it on here on more than one occasion. Make of that what you wish. What I will say is that when we were playing under PF, there was a general consensus on the forum that this was a squad that would be making top the 4 with any other man in charge. Fenlon walks, and after a good first few games in charge we're suddenly relegation candidates in a poor league. That says a lot for the skill of Pat Fenlon as a manger if I'm honest, he got a muck squad to a solid mid table spot.

Some say PF didn't improve us this season, and left a horrible squad. I think we're forgetting the players we were dealing with in his first full season in charge. The side was rank rotten, which was covered up in a large part by the undeniable quality of Leigh Griffiths and a very solid Claros in the holding role. Pat loses his 2 best players, yet at the time he left we were still in a higher position than we had finished the previous season. That to me says he improved his squad, and I had a firm belief with continued support he would have continued to improve the squad further. People talk about high player turnover, but to me that's fine. It's about constant improvement, Fenlon did sign some awful players but he did manage to promote some good youngsters and overall the squad improved for me. At our level we're never going to sign a perfect manager, and Fenlons work on the transfer market was definitely a weakness. But considering the unbalanced nature of the squad he brought together, he made it work for him, and I feel he continued to improve it and learn from mistakes.

For me though the big difference has been consistency. I'll be the first to admit that PF didn't play enjoyable football. There were times I was wondering if he realised the midfield existed. But what has to be said is that he had the team grinding out results (Partick away being one of the main examples) and playing solidly. It may not have been spectacular but we weren't conceding many (7-0 aside) and as much as he got derided for playing for the draw, we'd not be in this mess with if we still used his defensive style. On top of that there are players who I question how they're professional footballers now, that played well under Fenlon. Craig was excellent, Nelson was unspectacular but solid, Taiwo held the middle together. A number of these players seem to have fallen to bits under Butcher.

The problem I have with Butcher is that there's no visible plan, no consistency and the players genuinely don't look like they want to be on the park. Butcher always talks about wanting to get the ball wide and then put crosses into the box, yet insists on playing Harris on the left flank. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if you put a very one footed player on the opposite flank, he won't be able to deliver that ball and will be forced to cut inside. Adding to that, we seem to be making 6 or 7 changes every game. That doesn't help anybody, players on the park almost look afraid to make a mistake under Butcher. I've no problem with players making mistakes, because for us to get goals we need to take risks, but players simply look too afraid to take the risk, limiting us to an absolute nothing style of play. Craig's the best example here. He's not suddenly turned into a bad player over the past 3 months. But he just doesn't look like he wants to be there, no longer thinks about what he's doing, and there's only one man at Hibernian FC I can blame for that.

I do hope Butcher turns it around, and I'm all about giving managers time. Maybe all he needs is to bring in his own squad of players and fit it around his style of play. However, his lack of adaptability, and the way he puts out an unmotivated team week after week after week doesn't really speak in his favour. However, I'm sick of hearing about how it'll all be better next season. We've dragged ourselves into a relegation dogfight we never should have been in. It's time for TB to get his finger out and show he cares about our football club. Find a way to put a motivated squad on the park, playing whatever brand of football that will keep us in the SPL. I don't even care about winning, even a team that looks like it wants to win will pick up enough points to stay up. If he keeps mucking about deriding the players and making ridiculous statements about the team in the media, he's going to lose all respect from me, and no amount of "he'll do better with his own squad" is going to get that back.

I'm going to calm down now, and apologise for putting you through that awful rant.

I was enjoying your "awful rant" :greengrin until the bit in bold...

Personally, I do care about the brand of football, because it`s that, win, lose or draw, which will go a long way to determining whether a lot of fans will turn up. I also think that `staying in the SPFL` should be the absolute lowest of the low bottom rung of our ambitions. I also care about winning - I always want to see Hibs winning. And finally, again, imho `staying up` is not a `goal` a club like us should even be thinking about. Just the fact that we are debating it really shows how far we have sunk. Fenlon as manager is a whole other kettle of fish. Others on here have argued that one much better than I ever could, so I`ll leave it there.

BVB Hibs
11-04-2014, 01:23 AM
I was enjoying your "awful rant" :greengrin until the bit in bold...

Personally, I do care about the brand of football, because it`s that, win, lose or draw, which will go a long way to determining whether a lot of fans will turn up. I also think that `staying in the SPFL` should be the absolute lowest of the low bottom rung of our ambitions. I also care about winning - I always want to see Hibs winning. And finally, again, imho `staying up` is not a `goal` a club like us should even be thinking about. Just the fact that we are debating it really shows how far we have sunk. Fenlon as manager is a whole other kettle of fish. Others on here have argued that one much better than I ever could, so I`ll leave it there.

Normally I'd 100% agree. But at this stage of the season, with us playing the way we're playing, I'd take happily have us take the ball into a corner and hold it there 90 minutes if it keeps us out of the playoff spot. Spirit, fight and a team that looks like it's giving 100% for Hibs is the most important thing in the next few weeks and it's TB's job to motivate them to do that.

Of course staying up should never be a goal for hibs, but right now that's as much as I'm willing to hope for, and should be the only thing we're worrying about for the rest of the season.

macd123
11-04-2014, 03:31 AM
3
I agree BVB. The thing that frustrates me is i think fenlon had a vision for the club which was sensible. He made the fitness and conditioning more professional. He got rid of the "bad pros". He had begun to overhaul the scouting system. He was improving the whole club steadily but surely.

Look at the goalkeeping situation. We spent over a decade trying to find a reliable keeper. Pat and scott thomson sorted that.

It's the same with the "matty jack" role. We were desperate for someone after years of noubissie, thicot, keenan, mcbride, thornhill and the rest. Pat brought in claros, taiwo, thomson and otj.

How about set pieces. We have been prone to conceding from set pieces since i can remember, particularly against hearts. Pat turned that round 100% and we started to threaten other teams and score from corners.

Pat made some errors and the 5-1 and 7-0 did for him. But he definitely solved some long standing problems. I think eventually he would have sorted the attacking third too.

The worry now is we are going back to the old school with TB and MM.

Saorsa
11-04-2014, 08:24 AM
He got rid of the "bad pros"By bad pros, do you mean the boozers?

Captain Trips
11-04-2014, 10:23 AM
3
I agree BVB. The thing that frustrates me is i think fenlon had a vision for the club which was sensible. He made the fitness and conditioning more professional. He got rid of the "bad pros". He had begun to overhaul the scouting system. He was improving the whole club steadily but surely.

Look at the goalkeeping situation. We spent over a decade trying to find a reliable keeper. Pat and scott thomson sorted that.

It's the same with the "matty jack" role. We were desperate for someone after years of noubissie, thicot, keenan, mcbride, thornhill and the rest. Pat brought in claros, taiwo, thomson and otj.

How about set pieces. We have been prone to conceding from set pieces since i can remember, particularly against hearts. Pat turned that round 100% and we started to threaten other teams and score from corners.

Pat made some errors and the 5-1 and 7-0 did for him. But he definitely solved some long standing problems. I think eventually he would have sorted the attacking third too.

The worry now is we are going back to the old school with TB and MM.

He solved some problems and created new ones. If everything was solved like you suggest we would be 2nd by now and he wouldnt have left/sacked, eventually the attacking third? the defence has been appauling under Fenlon for basically the whole of his tenure he had a lot more to get right than the final third. He had Leigh upfront for a large part of his tenure so the final third was not to bad.

Pat was a disaster how steadily and surely was this to take? Hibs make it to 5th in 2017? I do not get this old school with TB it appears more really of the same, you are suggesting that TB may take us back to the old school, I think Pat went to that school then as it was the most boring, uninspring and in the main dross I had witnessed under his tenure in many a year.

The only difference for me I really noted about Fenlon and who he replaced Calderwood was that Fenlon wasn't a total ++++. By and large CC could still have been managing during PF reign as it wasnt really any better and right now I still see no real differences.

macd123
11-04-2014, 01:31 PM
3
He solved some problems and created new ones. If everything was solved like you suggest we would be 2nd by now and he wouldnt have left/sacked, eventually the attacking third? the defence has been appauling under Fenlon for basically the whole of his tenure he had a lot more to get right than the final third. He had Leigh upfront for a large part of his tenure so the final third was not to bad.

Pat was a disaster how steadily and surely was this to take? Hibs make it to 5th in 2017? I do not get this old school with TB it appears more really of the same, you are suggesting that TB may take us back to the old school, I think Pat went to that school then as it was the most boring, uninspring and in the main dross I had witnessed under his tenure in many a year.

The only difference for me I really noted about Fenlon and who he replaced Calderwood was that Fenlon wasn't a total ++++. By and large CC could still have been managing during PF reign as it wasnt really any better and right now I still see no real differences.

Well to solve problems in 18 months that other managers couldn't do in a decade was a good start. 5th by 2017? We were 5th in 2013 when he left!

We were not conceding many goals (with a couple of obvious exceptions). The games we lost tended to be 1-0. I agree it wasn't inspiring but that's my point. I think he would have addressed our attacking play.

Changing manager has had no impact. We now face another summer of rebuilding. TB s signings have been no improvement so far. For him to come in and tell taiwo and kt they can leave then move craig to defensive mid makes you wonder if he knows what he is talking about. He has destroyed craig, mcgivern and kt. He has made no use at all of zoubir. He has managed harris poorly. I hope he gets his act together but it's not looking good.

jacomo
11-04-2014, 01:38 PM
3

Well to solve problems in 18 months that other managers couldn't do in a decade was a good start. 5th by 2017? We were 5th in 2013 when he left!

We were not conceding many goals (with a couple of obvious exceptions). The games we lost tended to be 1-0. I agree it wasn't inspiring but that's my point. I think he would have addressed our attacking play.

Changing manager has had no impact. We now face another summer of rebuilding. TB s signings have been no improvement so far. For him to come in and tell taiwo and kt they can leave then move craig to defensive mid makes you wonder if he knows what he is talking about. He has destroyed craig, mcgivern and kt. He has made no use at all of zoubir. He has managed harris poorly. I hope he gets his act together but it's not looking good.

When you put it like that, it's quite a charge sheet.

Not quite sure he's guilty of all the above offences but TB definitely has work to do.

Bobby's Cinema
11-04-2014, 02:08 PM
When we won the three league games in a row at Christmas - when we were playing well and creating lots of chances - we had the same starting line up each game. Jason Cummings started all three, but was dropped for the next game, which we drew. There was no reason to change things but Butcher did (he may possibly argue that it was too many games for a youngster over a short spell).

The last decent wee spell that we had recently was four points from two games away to Killie and home to RC, where we weren't amazing, but certainly created a lot of chances. Handling and Stanton played well in both games, yet Handling was dropped for Craig in the next game, with Stanton moved up front. Again, no good reason to change, we had performed better without our captain in the side.

Since then he has made a whole raft of changes every single game, and we are suffering badly for it. I have very little faith in him at the moment.
:agree: He is not helping us at the moment

Pray4Marc
11-04-2014, 02:19 PM
When we won the three league games in a row at Christmas - when we were playing well and creating lots of chances - we had the same starting line up each game. Jason Cummings started all three, but was dropped for the next game, which we drew. There was no reason to change things but Butcher did (he may possibly argue that it was too many games for a youngster over a short spell).

The last decent wee spell that we had recently was four points from two games away to Killie and home to RC, where we weren't amazing, but certainly created a lot of chances. Handling and Stanton played well in both games, yet Handling was dropped for Craig in the next game, with Stanton moved up front. Again, no good reason to change, we had performed better without our captain in the side.

Since then he has made a whole raft of changes every single game, and we are suffering badly for it. I have very little faith in him at the moment.

The team as a whole was playing with confidence when we were on a decent run at Christmas, not buying this Jason Cummings love in. He did play in the games on our "winning run" but he was well out of his depth and has missed countless chances.

I believe Stanton and Handling are better players at this moment in time and if Cummings is given experience, chucked In with a few goals he can get to their current level. I've been really impressed with Dannny Handling recently, physically he looks a lot stronger and no longer looks like a wee laddie. Also has great composure for a lad his age.

Going into the St Mirren game do we shut up shop and play countering attacking football or go gung-ho. Either way IMO if we score 1st we will win.

Captain Trips
11-04-2014, 02:21 PM
3

Well to solve problems in 18 months that other managers couldn't do in a decade was a good start. 5th by 2017? We were 5th in 2013 when he left!

We were not conceding many goals (with a couple of obvious exceptions). The games we lost tended to be 1-0. I agree it wasn't inspiring but that's my point. I think he would have addressed our attacking play.

Changing manager has had no impact. We now face another summer of rebuilding. TB s signings have been no improvement so far. For him to come in and tell taiwo and kt they can leave then move craig to defensive mid makes you wonder if he knows what he is talking about. He has destroyed craig, mcgivern and kt. He has made no use at all of zoubir. He has managed harris poorly. I hope he gets his act together but it's not looking good.

And it had no impact when Fenlon took over otherwise we wouldnt be having this discussion, Fenlon was as bad as any other poor manager in last few years how he managed 2yrs is beyond me.

LioNeilMessi
11-04-2014, 02:34 PM
The team as a whole was playing with confidence when we were on a decent run at Christmas, not buying this Jason Cummings love in. He did play in the games on our "winning run" but he was well out of his depth and has missed countless chances.

I believe Stanton and Handling are better players at this moment in time and if Cummings is given experience, chucked In with a few goals he can get to their current level. I've been really impressed with Dannny Handling recently, physically he looks a lot stronger and no longer looks like a wee laddie. Also has great composure for a lad his age.

Going into the St Mirren game do we shut up shop and play countering attacking football or go gung-ho. Either way IMO if we score 1st we will win.

A bit unfair. I thought Jason looked good on the ball and at least he was getting in the right position "countless" times to miss chances.

Brightside
11-04-2014, 02:40 PM
A bit unfair. I thought Jason looked good on the ball and at least he was getting in the right position "countless" times to miss chances.

Exactly - great player. needs a run in the team. play 2 up top and he'd deffo be one.

Ronniekirk
11-04-2014, 04:04 PM
:agree: He is not helping us at the moment
He is rattled and making wrong decisions under pressure I fear Far too many changes at a time we need a settled side that just needs to win one bloody game out of five The chopping and changing has to stop .

Ronniekirk
11-04-2014, 04:10 PM
A bit unfair. I thought Jason looked good on the ball and at least he was getting in the right position "countless" times to miss chances.
But when you are put back into struggling team low on confidence and pressure is on you to open your account and to help team win it is maybe too Mutch for him We aren't creating lots of chances so players know when the get a chance it might be only one in game they will get, and if that thought flashes through thier mind then it can lead to the Collins miss against hearts .When a team is in free fall that pressure just builds and it takes strong characters to work through it Jason may not come good till next season for first team Hooe I am wrong as he is back scoring for under 20 team again .

Stevie Reid
11-04-2014, 04:44 PM
The team as a whole was playing with confidence when we were on a decent run at Christmas, not buying this Jason Cummings love in. He did play in the games on our "winning run" but he was well out of his depth and has missed countless chances.

I believe Stanton and Handling are better players at this moment in time and if Cummings is given experience, chucked In with a few goals he can get to their current level. I've been really impressed with Dannny Handling recently, physically he looks a lot stronger and no longer looks like a wee laddie. Also has great composure for a lad his age.

Going into the St Mirren game do we shut up shop and play countering attacking football or go gung-ho. Either way IMO if we score 1st we will win.

Hardly a love in, if you look at my post I didn't even praise Cummings, I simply mentioned that he was part of the team that won three in a row.

FWIW though, I remember him missing a sitter in his first game for us right after he came off the bench, but I certainly don't recall him missing "countless chances".

Pray4Marc
11-04-2014, 05:03 PM
The love in wasn't aimed at you Stevie. Have just seen ALOT of posts in the past month regarding Jason Cummings and this great player, frankly at the minute I don't see it.

Keith_M
11-04-2014, 05:10 PM
What makes you think he dosen't give a toss ? :rolleyes:

to be honest I think he's just way out of his depth as he's never had a club with expectations as high as ours. Just hope he has the ability to get us the couple of wins we need to stay up.


Seriously? Our expectations the last few season have been 'try not to get relegated', while his previous club is in the upper reaches of the league.

Stevie Reid
11-04-2014, 05:15 PM
The love in wasn't aimed at you Stevie. Have just seen ALOT of posts in the past month regarding Jason Cummings and this great player, frankly at the minute I don't see it.

Fair do's mate. I liked what I saw when he came in but it was obvious he was still very raw. I certainly don't think he's the answer to our current problems, and the theme of my post was really regarding Butcher changing winning teams.

jacomo
11-04-2014, 05:23 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26866755

Interesting article about Kenny Jackett turning around Wolves. Not directly comparable to our situation, but there are a few similarities.

Bobby's Cinema
11-04-2014, 05:26 PM
He is rattled and making wrong decisions under pressure I fear Far too many changes at a time we need a settled side that just needs to win one bloody game out of five The chopping and changing has to stop .
For me his biggest mistake and now problem is:

He makes Craig captain drops him, then brings him back in and reinstates him. After Mondays performance could he drop him again?

You can understand him making changes to find his best team, but the above is just causing too much disruption.

It shows and they are playing like strangers.

Hopefully the two weeks does them good :aok:

IberianHibernian
11-04-2014, 09:22 PM
For me his biggest mistake and now problem is:

He makes Craig captain drops him, then brings him back in and reinstates him. After Mondays performance could he drop him again?

You can understand him making changes to find his best team, but the above is just causing too much disruption.

It shows and they are playing like strangers.

Hopefully the two weeks does them good :aok:Agree about strangers . I`ve thought the same at almost every game since TB arrived . A year ago , we had the best atmosphere at ER for years at home matches and great ( numbers and happiness ) away supports at Killie etc . Cup final result was disappointing but at least support united . Last few months has seen team spirit ( which was there - look at draw with Celtic just before Pat left ) decimated and support demoralised . A similar thing happened at the end of Williamson`s reign and we changed manager despite no relegation threat . If we`re relegated I suppose TB will resign without being pushed ( he`ll get another ICT type job if he wants it ) . If we survive in playoff or without but with very weak finish , Petrie will surely have to consider change since summer change will always be better than a November one . Summer could be great opportunity for new start with something new to catch imagination of fans and possible new signings . Worry is that Petrie decided a long ago that decisión he took last November ( or well before ) is only ( easy ? ) policy especially if a couple of better paid signings have been lined up ( perhaps on basis of higher crowds - something which hasn`t happened though ironically relegation dogfight will lead to higher attendances )

Scottie
11-04-2014, 09:36 PM
Seriously? Our expectations the last few season have been 'try not to get relegated', while his previous club is in the upper reaches of the league.
So are you telling me that ICT expectations are higher than ours each year.?
With the resources we have surely at the start of each season you've been hoping for more than escaping a relegation battle ? :rolleyes:

BOB MARLEYS DUG
19-04-2014, 03:42 PM
Bump.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
19-04-2014, 03:49 PM
Serious questions! Is Butcher the man? For me, nope. Are we going down? Keep this up and we will be.

Gatecrasher
19-04-2014, 03:50 PM
Is butcher the man? It's not looking like it. Are we going down? Yes.

J-C
19-04-2014, 03:50 PM
No and yes

Beefster
19-04-2014, 03:52 PM
Dunno and dunno.

PeterboroHibee
19-04-2014, 03:53 PM
He looks utterly clueless (so no), and on this form theres a real danger of it.

FitbaFolkKen
19-04-2014, 03:54 PM
No and No, I think we'll stay up by the skin of our teeth. But i'm more than disappointed in the "change" in our team over the past few months. We seem to have returned to Calderwoods days. There was so much discussion regarding the psychology of the players and using it to improve the squad when he arrived. Now we've gone from a bang average boring SPFL side to a squad of losers. It is horrific to watch.

Bostonhibby
19-04-2014, 03:54 PM
He looks utterly clueless (so no), and on this form theres a real danger of it.

:agree: This.

chrisski33
19-04-2014, 03:55 PM
no and no

Northernhibee
19-04-2014, 03:55 PM
Yes and maybe.

SouthamptonHibs
19-04-2014, 03:56 PM
Butcher should be punted he must play 4-4-2! Another game no goals for us playing that 4-5-1 system.
Yes we are going down

Elephant Stone
19-04-2014, 03:57 PM
If he gets us relegated I'd have serious doubts about keeping him. 4 wins in 23 matches now, absolutely brutal.

Michael
19-04-2014, 03:57 PM
I miss Pat and occasionally winning.

HibsNutter
19-04-2014, 03:58 PM
I really hope the style of football changes, it's woeful to watch really.

Thecat23
19-04-2014, 04:00 PM
I've been one of Butchers biggest supporters but I've had enough of this. How the **** can we not score never mind won. Butcher now must start taking a huge amount of blame here along with sour puss MM.

ionahibby
19-04-2014, 04:02 PM
Butchers jacket is definitely on a shoogly peg that's for sure!

blackpoolhibs
19-04-2014, 04:02 PM
His tactics today were a complete shambles, he's more clueless than Calderclown.

Greenblood70
19-04-2014, 04:03 PM
No he's clearly not the right man and has destroyed any slim degree of confidence the players had. We're in a tailspin I can't see us gettin out of, we can't score end concede very soft goals. I think we'll end up in the playoff spot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

blindsummit
19-04-2014, 04:04 PM
I must admit, I was excited when TB was signed.

How deeply and bitterly foolish I feel now. In any job, particularly management, you are judged by your results, and the results don't lie. Once again we have made a terrible error in judgement.

That doesn't mean the blame lies solely with the Management Team.

The culture of any organization starts at the top. The leaders set the goals and the tone.

If you have leaders who hide, who refuse to set goals and standards, who don't see a winning team on the park as THE priority, and instead are content to have some kind of lower level continuous existence as the primary goal, then then why should we expect any different?

The players are just responding to what they see coming from above. I've seen it in many companies. "Well if our leaders aren't passionate about the organization, then why should we be?"

It sticks in my throat to say it but our club is sick. There is a sickness pervading through it, and therefore instead of a culture of winning, of excitement of passion, we have what we have. A culture of indifference, of losers, of people picking up a wage but not trying their erchie.

What to do about it? Well unless new owners come forward who are passionate about the team, I am afraid to say I don't have any idea where the cure is coming from.

I do want to see the back of Rod Petrie, however I'm not sure anyone coming in would have a different brief from him, so what difference would that make.

One thing is for sure, these are desperate times to be a Hibs fan. If we do go down, and right now that's an odds-on bet, I fear for our ability to come back up, I really do.

Jim44
19-04-2014, 04:09 PM
I was indifferent to Butcher now I'd love to see the back of him. In another thread I said we would probably end up in 11th place but we would probably end up winning the play off over two legs. That is now in serious doubt.

Greenworld
19-04-2014, 04:11 PM
I was indifferent to Butcher now I'd love to see the back of him. In another thread I said we would probably end up in 11th place but we would probably end up winning the play off over two legs. That is now in serious doubt.

Worse than fenlon Fact

MoscowHibs
19-04-2014, 04:11 PM
Yes TB is the man to take us forward and no, we ain't going down. Once he gets rid of the dross and gets his own players in we will see a different team next season. We seriously need a strong back line and a couple of midfielders with a bit of bite. In the current squad I would keep Harris, Robertson, Cummings,Craig,Stanton, Forster, Hanlon and Craig. Collins I think could do a job given proper service and with a decent forward beside him. Booth will be back next season so it will be interesting to see how he fares, and if his so called demons have gone then he should be ok. There are some youngsters who may break through but it might be just a tad too early. The rest can bolt. The nucleus is there I think, just needs a few more added then I think we will see a difference.

GreenLake
19-04-2014, 04:12 PM
I doubt we will go down but it gets harder to take with so many games looking pish.

Baader
19-04-2014, 04:12 PM
Was for his appointment. Was hoping he'd turn us around but week by week he looks increasingly clueless I'm afraid...

BOB MARLEYS DUG
19-04-2014, 04:14 PM
Deja vu of two season ago when we had to play Dunfermline to stay up.

coldingham hibs
19-04-2014, 04:14 PM
Get Butcher & Malpas as far away from Easter Road as possible, absolute disaster.

dastardly8
19-04-2014, 04:14 PM
Where is the U20 team we were promised recently maybe we should field the Hibs ladies against hearts probably got more bottle than our current team of roasters, comments please

BOB MARLEYS DUG
19-04-2014, 04:15 PM
Where is the U20 team we were promised recently maybe we should field the Hibs ladies against hearts probably got more bottle than our current team of roasters, comments please

The under 20's were busy winning the league today. Would love to see them all getting a game for the first team.

Northernhibee
19-04-2014, 04:15 PM
His tactics today were a complete shambles, he's more clueless than Calderclown.

And yet you were totally anti-Fenlon, and the few minority of us who said that it was too early to get rid of PF were rubbished on here.

I hate to say I told you so...

cabbageandribs1875
19-04-2014, 04:17 PM
The under 20's were busy winning the league today. Would love to see them all getting a game for the first team.


it was the Eos team that won today

IberianHibernian
19-04-2014, 04:20 PM
And yet you were totally anti-Fenlon, and the few minority of us who said that it was too early to get rid of PF were rubbished on here.

I hate to say I told you so...Agree entirely . Should never have changed manager especially midseason . Whatever is said about Fenlon he knew how to get the players to respond to a bad result ( beating Celtic just after Ross County defeat for example ) while present team look dispirited and lacking in confidence .

jeffers
19-04-2014, 04:21 PM
Agree entirely . Should never have changed manager especially midseason . Whatever is said about Fenlon he knew how to get the players to respond to a bad result ( beating Celtic just after Ross County defeat for example ) while present team look dispirited and lacking in confidence .

Fenlon resigned didn't he ?

Elephant Stone
19-04-2014, 04:23 PM
Fenlon resigned didn't he ?

Having a congregation of angry people outside the stadium demanding he did may have been slightly influential.

Northernhibee
19-04-2014, 04:23 PM
Agree entirely . Should never have changed manager especially midseason . Whatever is said about Fenlon he knew how to get the players to respond to a bad result ( beating Celtic just after Ross County defeat for example ) while present team look dispirited and lacking in confidence .

The thing is, we have a whole load of people who put their every living effort into undermining Pat Fenlon. Pat walks because he's had enough of all the negativity towards him.

If we weren't so harsh on Pat he'd still be here, we'd be looking at top six and stats would suggest we'd have got past Raith in the Scottish cup. He'd have been able to build a culture (and he had a reputation in Ireland of being a hard taskmaster creating teams who were tough to beat) in the club.

But hey, we didn't play like Barca under Fenlon so boooo he had to go etc. etc. etc. etc.

Give me a ****ing break.

blackpoolhibs
19-04-2014, 04:26 PM
And yet you were totally anti-Fenlon, and the few minority of us who said that it was too early to get rid of PF were rubbished on here.

I hate to say I told you so...

Bollox, Fenlon had to go. He should have gone after the Malmo shambles, but what you don't do is replace one clueless clown with another.

Northernhibee
19-04-2014, 04:29 PM
Bollox, Fenlon had to go. He should have gone after the Malmo shambles, but what you don't do is replace one clueless clown with another.

Of course your way of changing managers every two games is working a treat.

What doesn't work is chopping and changing managers with totally different styles mid season. We should have kept Pat to the end of his contract at the end of the season, taken the mid table finish and probable decent cup run and then evaluated the situation at end of season.

Scottie
19-04-2014, 04:29 PM
Bollox, Fenlon had to go. He should have gone after the Malmo shambles, but what you don't do is replace one clueless clown with another.
Was you no all for TB when he was unveiled ? :cb

Northernhibee
19-04-2014, 04:31 PM
Was you no all for TB when he was unveiled ? :cb

BH supporting a manager? :top marks

Eyemouth Hibby
19-04-2014, 04:36 PM
The thing is, we have a whole load of people who put their every living effort into undermining Pat Fenlon. Pat walks because he's had enough of all the negativity towards him.

If we weren't so harsh on Pat he'd still be here, we'd be looking at top six and stats would suggest we'd have got past Raith in the Scottish cup. He'd have been able to build a culture (and he had a reputation in Ireland of being a hard taskmaster creating teams who were tough to beat) in the club.

But hey, we didn't play like Barca under Fenlon so boooo he had to go etc. etc. etc. etc.

Give me a ****ing break.

I think we were way to quick to get rid of PF - he took us to two cup finals in two years FFS. Butcher didn't excite me to start with, mediocre manager in a mediocre league. Uninspired choice from a dross chairman. There's no goals in this team & the current malaise is frightening. Petrie for me is the real problem. For nigh on 30 years I've been a Hibs Fan & they've won two league cups - Utter *****!

jeffers
19-04-2014, 04:39 PM
Of course your way of changing managers every two games is working a treat.

What doesn't work is chopping and changing managers with totally different styles mid season. We should have kept Pat to the end of his contract at the end of the season, taken the mid table finish and probable decent cup run and then evaluated the situation at end of season.

No, the mistake we made was letting him start the season and allowing him to sign dross like OTJ, Vine, Nelson and Collins (yes the Collins that just needs the right service to be a good player for us :rolleyes:) Starting the season with no fit full backs and a youngster released by Hearts as cover. And a team other than Harris with absolutely no pace in it.

Butcher has been an utter disaster so far and if he relegates us him & MM can F off, but let's not make out that Fenlon was doing a better job than he actually was.

Northernhibee
19-04-2014, 04:43 PM
No, the mistake we made was letting him start the season and allowing him to sign dross like OTJ, Vine, Nelson and Collins (yes the Collins that just needs the right service to be a good player for us :rolleyes:) Starting the season with no fit full backs and a youngster released by Hearts as cover. And a team other than Harris with absolutely no pace in it.

Butcher has been an utter disaster so far and if he relegates us him & MM can F off, but let's not make out that Fenlon was doing a better job than he actually was.

Fenlon had us slowly, but consistently, improving.

If you ask the wrong questions you will come to the wrong conclusions - look at the strikers we were linked to before we signed Vine and Collins - Taylor, Higdon, Griffiths etc. Collins and Vine were far from the first choices of Pat. We were linked with quite a few wide players and the deals didn't come through untill we got Zoubir near the end of the window. Zoubir was far from Pat's first choice.

But at least we agree that mid season isn't the time to change a manager. :wink:

Furthermore, Yogi (I think) had always said that there were big problems behind the scenes but wouldn't say unless someone could pay legal fees for him or similar. We kind of laughed him off as bitter on here, I mind it well. Who wouldn't love to know his opinion now?

jeffers
19-04-2014, 05:00 PM
Fenlon had us slowly, but consistently, improving.

If you ask the wrong questions you will come to the wrong conclusions - look at the strikers we were linked to before we signed Vine and Collins - Taylor, Higdon, Griffiths etc. Collins and Vine were far from the first choices of Pat. We were linked with quite a few wide players and the deals didn't come through untill we got Zoubir near the end of the window. Zoubir was far from Pat's first choice.

But at least we agree that mid season isn't the time to change a manager. :wink:

Furthermore, Yogi (I think) had always said that there were big problems behind the scenes but wouldn't say unless someone could pay legal fees for him or similar. We kind of laughed him off as bitter on here, I mind it well. Who wouldn't love to know his opinion now?

PF had Leigh Griffiths, when he lost him the baw was bust. You are spot on, Griffiths, Higdon & Taylor were all in front of Vine and Collins. But the bottom line is he did sign the latter two + Nelson, OTJ, Mullan & Zoubir and in Collins case wasted £80,000+ in the process.

My mate is friends with PF, he has told me the odd bit here and there. He is due to catch up with him shortly, I'm hoping he'll tell him a bit more of what was really going on.

ekhibee
19-04-2014, 05:03 PM
No, the mistake we made was letting him start the season and allowing him to sign dross like OTJ, Vine, Nelson and Collins (yes the Collins that just needs the right service to be a good player for us :rolleyes:) Starting the season with no fit full backs and a youngster released by Hearts as cover. And a team other than Harris with absolutely no pace in it.

Butcher has been an utter disaster so far and if he relegates us him & MM can F off, but let's not make out that Fenlon was doing a better job than he actually was.
I agree with most of this, Fenlon should have been gone before the start of the season, and the team is really short of pace. Butcher's start with Hibs was fine but it's been virtually all downhill from then. Different people have different reasons for why this has occurred; there has been a lot of changes to the starting XI over the last few weeks, still with not that much improvement. I can only say that I was never in favour of Hughes, Mixu, Calderwood or Fenlon as manager, but was fully in favour of Butcher. It might sound like a gamble right now, but I would trust Butcher to make good, significant changes to the team in the close season. I realize there might be a lot of people who might disagree with me, but it's just how I, personally, feel.

jeffers
19-04-2014, 05:19 PM
I agree with most of this, Fenlon should have been gone before the start of the season, and the team is really short of pace. Butcher's start with Hibs was fine but it's been virtually all downhill from then. Different people have different reasons for why this has occurred; there has been a lot of changes to the starting XI over the last few weeks, still with not that much improvement. I can only say that I was never in favour of Hughes, Mixu, Calderwood or Fenlon as manager, but was fully in favour of Butcher. It might sound like a gamble right now, but I would trust Butcher to make good, significant changes to the team in the close season. I realize there might be a lot of people who might disagree with me, but it's just how I, personally, feel.

My concern all along with TB was that ICT was a good fit, no expectation, no pressure. He's bombed in pretty much every other manager's job he's had. I don't believe we have a good squad, certainly not a balanced one, but he's got it performing at a level I didn't think possible. If we go down then he can F off, if we survive it would be a mistake imo (having spent compensation to get him) not to allow him the chance in the summer to sign the players to fit in the system he wants to play.

PeeJay
19-04-2014, 05:22 PM
And yet you were totally anti-Fenlon, and the few minority of us who said that it was too early to get rid of PF were rubbished on here.

I hate to say I told you so...

Deservedly so as well IMO. Maybe you think Fenlon would have had us safe by now - yet aren't these players his players? Well, mostly, with one major exception of course - Griffiths, the guy that saved Fenlon's bacon - that was it, nothing else! Butcher doesn't have Griffiths, we don't score goals, we are where we are - thanks Mr Fenlon.

ekhibee
19-04-2014, 05:22 PM
My concern all along with TB was that ICT was a good fit, no expectation, no pressure. He's bombed in pretty much every other manager's job he's had. I don't believe we have a good squad, certainly not a balanced one, but he's got it performing at a level I didn't think possible. If we go down then he can F off, if we survive it would be a mistake imo (having spent compensation to get him) not to allow him the chance in the summer to sign the players to fit in the system he wants to play.
Yep, totally agree with all of this.

weonlywon6-2
19-04-2014, 05:29 PM
When terry was brought in he was probably the majority of fans choice as he had Inverness in a great position and had them consistent over a couple of years.So what has gone so wrong.

Something has snapped after the united and aberdeen away games and we are falling faster than a stone,god knows what it will take to turn it around

blackpoolhibs
19-04-2014, 05:33 PM
Of course your way of changing managers every two games is working a treat.

What doesn't work is chopping and changing managers with totally different styles mid season. We should have kept Pat to the end of his contract at the end of the season, taken the mid table finish and probable decent cup run and then evaluated the situation at end of season.

And you exaggerating to get your point over is not working either.


Was you no all for TB when he was unveiled ? :cb


I was neither here nor there with his appointment, i don't really get this either. I NOR ANY OTHER FAN APPOINT THE MANAGERS, thats down to the idiot running the club, and it appears he's given us another buffoon.

Albion Hibs
19-04-2014, 05:37 PM
Deservedly so as well IMO. Maybe you think Fenlon would have had us safe by now - yet aren't these players his players? Well, mostly, with one major exception of course - Griffiths, the guy that saved Fenlon's bacon - that was it, nothing else! Butcher doesn't have Griffiths, we don't score goals, we are where we are - thanks Mr Fenlon.


Agreed, fenlon left this mess behind, the board is to blame for not getting shot of him after the hearts cup final or at the very latest at the end of last season, and giving a new manager a chance...but not at hibs and yet again history has repeated itself and we pick up a new manager a few months into a new season that has to rebuild and the pain carries on.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
19-04-2014, 05:43 PM
We cant keep using the excuse 'its Fenlon's team". If Butcher is a good manager he would be getting a whole lot more out of these players, Pulis at Palace is a perfect example.

Phil D. Rolls
19-04-2014, 05:47 PM
Shocking run of form. There are enough good players at the club to have prevented this.

Looks like Tels gub boat diplomacy has failed spectacularly. I honestly hope we can get it together, because at the moment we look like a club that's trying to kill itself.

Phil D. Rolls
19-04-2014, 05:49 PM
Agreed, fenlon left this mess behind, the board is to blame for not getting shot of him after the hearts cup final or at the very latest at the end of last season, and giving a new manager a chance...but not at hibs and yet again history has repeated itself and we pick up a new manager a few months into a new season that has to rebuild and the pain carries on.

A bit soft on Butchrer for me. Fenton got the bullet because we weren't pushing for top six. Butcher was supposed to be the solution.

Albion Hibs
19-04-2014, 05:55 PM
We cant keep using the excuse 'its Fenlon's team". If Butcher is a good manager he would be getting a whole lot more out of these players, Pulis at Palace is a perfect example.

Surely by the same logic butcher is a good manager given he had Inverness in 2nd he left and now they are almost mid table?

col02
19-04-2014, 06:04 PM
Hibs would probably make Tommy Wright, Jackie Mcnamara jr and Derek McInnes look like clueless numpties too. The club is a joke that has become a graveyard for too many a career in recent time.

Baader
19-04-2014, 06:06 PM
Hibs would probably make Tommy Wright, Jackie Mcnamara jr and Derek McInnes look like clueless numpties too. The club is a joke that has become a graveyard for too many a career in recent time. Part of me welcome relegation if it managed to get this curse that seems to dog the club.

And be languishing in the Championship for three years? With crowds of 6000?

col02
19-04-2014, 06:07 PM
And be languishing in the Championship for three years? With crowds of 6000?

Looking at big crowds next season in the Spl if Hibs stay up? Most punters on here running the mouth are not coming back.

Baader
19-04-2014, 06:12 PM
Top flight is better than championship. Relegation would be a total disaster for the club. Even less money and with Hertz and The Huns down there we won't be going up in a hurry.

We need to stay up at all costs.

Captain Trips
19-04-2014, 06:14 PM
When appointed I expected an improvement, not 10 match unbeaten but something. What we seem to have isn't even as good as more of the same it is actually worse than Fenlon.

Another wrong one IMO as I have seen nothing to suggest he is capable of building when he can't rally what he has now.

Petrie is 2yrs past sell by date. Clear off and take Butcher with you.

Golden Bear
19-04-2014, 06:15 PM
Looking at big crowds next season in the Spl if Hibs stay up? Most punters on here running the mouth are not coming back.

It's a now customary Saturday night saying but come the following week there is always the feeling that just maybe this might be the game when things finally knit together.

Mugs I tell ye.

:greengrin

Northernhibee
19-04-2014, 06:19 PM
Deservedly so as well IMO. Maybe you think Fenlon would have had us safe by now - yet aren't these players his players? Well, mostly, with one major exception of course - Griffiths, the guy that saved Fenlon's bacon - that was it, nothing else! Butcher doesn't have Griffiths, we don't score goals, we are where we are - thanks Mr Fenlon.

We were 5th under Pat. Thanks Pat.

lucky
19-04-2014, 06:21 PM
It's just not working for TB. He decision to go 1 up front when they went down to 10 men was baffling. He chops and changes the midfield all the time. Bye TB bye bye

Scottie
19-04-2014, 06:24 PM
And you exaggerating to get your point over is not working either.




I was neither here nor there with his appointment, i don't really get this either. I NOR ANY OTHER FAN APPOINT THE MANAGERS, thats down to the idiot running the club, and it appears he's given us another buffoon.
BUffoon is an understatement BH.

Unfortunately TB seems to be more out of his depth at Hibs than PF was.

stevejordan
19-04-2014, 06:36 PM
worse than Fenlon but what can we do 4 games to go cant change now that was dire today no confidence in the team 1 goal in last six games Butcher has lost the dressing room 5 straight defeats now our only hope is we can pull it together for the play offs unless we can pull of a couple of wins in our last 4 games but current form and morale is so low now.

Petrie needs to come out now with something to help get us over the line.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
19-04-2014, 06:42 PM
Surely by the same logic butcher is a good manager given he had Inverness in 2nd he left and now they are almost mid table?

Well when Yogi is playing fullbacks at DM and stuff, you wonder why.

jeffers
19-04-2014, 06:56 PM
worse than Fenlon but what can we do 4 games to go cant change now that was dire today no confidence in the team 1 goal in last six games Butcher has lost the dressing room 5 straight defeats now our only hope is we can pull it together for the play offs unless we can pull of a couple of wins in our last 4 games but current form and morale is so low now.

Petrie needs to come out now with something to help get us over the line.

Is he good up front ?:wink:

Captain Trips
19-04-2014, 07:44 PM
worse than Fenlon but what can we do 4 games to go cant change now that was dire today no confidence in the team 1 goal in last six games Butcher has lost the dressing room 5 straight defeats now our only hope is we can pull it together for the play offs unless we can pull of a couple of wins in our last 4 games but current form and morale is so low now.

Petrie needs to come out now with something to help get us over the line.

Yes Petrie does and that is to sack his last mistake and leave with him.

DH1875
20-04-2014, 09:00 AM
Don't think it'll come to it but if we do go down I reckon TB will walk

stevejordan
20-04-2014, 01:43 PM
I Was chatting to one of my mates today who said he had heard that there is friction between The Board and Terry because the Management Team were brought in at great Expense on the Basis they could work with the current Squad and Improve on a Top Bottom six Finish and they accepted these terms when they took the Helm.

However after the Dundee United game in early January TB asked for funding to bring in several quality players he had identified in the January Window that would strengthen the team and was told No this has led to friction ever since.

He Said Everyone is blaming each other for the Mess no one is taking responsibility its probably a load of crap but he is usually pretty on the ball he knew about TB And MM Being appointed before it was made public.

HUTCHYHIBBY
20-04-2014, 01:55 PM
And yet you were totally anti-Fenlon, and the few minority of us who said that it was too early to get rid of PF were rubbished on here.

I hate to say I told you so...

It wasnae early enough, the fact that Butcher may end up being worse wasnae easy to predict.

Ronniekirk
20-04-2014, 02:08 PM
It's a now customary Saturday night saying but come the following week there is always the feeling that just maybe this might be the game when things finally knit together.

Mugs I tell ye.

:greengrin
Anyone who thought that will be pretty clear after that st midden gAme that we cannae knit anything together .

Brightside
20-04-2014, 02:14 PM
We played for 60 mins against a very poor St Mirren team. He continued to play 4-5-1. He changes 4 or 5 players every team. He said he would play the young players (he hasn't). Everything about the team on game days looks shambolic at the moment. We won't pick up another point all season and just need to hope that another team is just as poor.

PeeJay
20-04-2014, 05:29 PM
We were 5th under Pat. Thanks Pat.

You' sure? Don't recall finishing 5th under Pat ... we finished bottom six if I recall. The only thing to be thankful is that he is gone. We're not doing very well at the moment with his players minus Griffiths - can't really see why anyone would thank him for what he left us with - Butcher certainly isn't thanking him.

Academic really, I suppose - Fenlon's no longer our problem, although his parting gift seems to have been a bunch of them.

... still, Butcher should be able to achieve more with these players than what is currently being served up - can't really pin that on PF ...