Are Sheep A Lot Bigger Than Cabbage?

[Speedway]

According to Tim Clancy, it's one of the reasons behind their success this season:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/tim-clancy-reflects-on-frustrating-spell-at-hibs-1-3347434

“It’s hard for Hibs to get where they want to be because there are a lot of clubs who want to get there. You look at Aberdeen this season, but their budget is quite a bit bigger than Hibs. They’ve had to wait a long time for a trophy, and the League Cup in particular has been won by a few different clubs recently, so hopefully it won’t be long till Hibs get some success again.”

I was labouring under the impression that our player budget was a match for anyone outside Celtic in the SPFL. Maybe not so.

[CB_NO3]

According to Tim Clancy, it's one of the reasons behind their success this season:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/tim-clancy-reflects-on-frustrating-spell-at-hibs-1-3347434

“It’s hard for Hibs to get where they want to be because there are a lot of clubs who want to get there. You look at Aberdeen this season, but their budget is quite a bit bigger than Hibs. They’ve had to wait a long time for a trophy, and the League Cup in particular has been won by a few different clubs recently, so hopefully it won’t be long till Hibs get some success again.”

I was labouring under the impression that our player budget was a match for anyone outside Celtic in the SPFL. Maybe not so.
It will be slightly bigger but not that much. Aberdeen have been lucky with injuries and so on. We have players like McPake, Thomson who will be on a no bad wage and dont even play. Clancy would have been on a no bad wage and he did not play for a long time. It feels like we have wasted a lot of cash.

As for Aberdeen being bigger, no chance. If you look at the SPL website our average crowd has been bigger than Aberdeens for about 10 out of the last 15 years. If we were second in the league and had won a cup we would be getting big crowds. They were down to 7k at some games two seasons ago.

Fair play to them though, they have backed their manager with cash and they have signed proven SPL quality players, were as we have signed proven journey men or cripples.

[leggeto]

Id say similar size,but they have a chairman who is interested in the football side,maybe they have spent a lot of money for this success

[hibsforeurope]

Id say similar size,but they have a chairman who is interested in the football side,maybe they have spent a lot of money for this success

Unlike Hibs who have spent a lot of money for no success (in the last 7 years)

[The Sea-gull]

Depends how you measure it but I would say we are the 5th biggest club in Scotland though in truth there is not much between us, the Yams and Aberdeen for places 3, 4 and 5 and they have been interchangeable places between the three clubs. I'd say the main measurement of how big a club is can be based on how many people turn up to watch them on a regular basis and how many they have the potential to attract. You could bring number of trophies won, average league placings, head to heads into (incidently do this and we are still 5th biggest) but I'd say that would be for the "who is the most successful club" debate.

The debate on The Rangers and how they should be viewed has been done to death so don't really want to go into that but I would say, based purely on support, they and Celtic are one and two. Can't be bothered debating the order but they are both about as big and ugly as each other for me.

I don't have the stats to hand but I know from reading on this before, in terms of attendances, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen have all had their seasons as the third best supported club but Hearts have had the third best attendance in the most number of season in total. Aberdeen edge Hibs though mainly down to their successful period in the 1980s/very early 90s and there have been a good few seasons where we have a better crowd than them.

For me, out of these three clubs, any of them has the potential to make the "third force" tag their own but none really have done it. You could argue that in the relatively recent past Aberdeen were actually the top team bettering Rangers and Celtic in both trophy hauls and, I believe they got better crowds than Rangers did in the early 1980s and better than Celtic in the early 1990s. They have obviously slipped considerably since then but there is evidence to suggest they may be able to claw support back.

Hearts look to be out the equation for the forseeable though will no doubt post attendances of 14k at the PBS next season when in reality there will be nothing like that there though I do expect their crowds to hold up well to begin with especially if they are making a promotion challenge. The interesting part will be to see how they are followed if they have to spend 2, 3 or more seasons in that league.

And us, we know the fans are there but we need results and performances to get them in. Our big chance for a shot at it was 2004 - 2007 when I am pretty sure we were getting 12k on a bad day and some weeks even near enough filling the stadium no matter who the opposition were. I recall having to run to get a seat for a home game v St Mirren circa 2005/2006 as we were rapidly selling out as kick off approached.

As we know, we failed to capitalise on that as a club which brings me on to a point referenced earlier - do Aberdeen have a bigger budget that us? There were figures posted a while back which suggested they generally turned over slightly more than us and paid out slightly more than us but nowt significant. In the last ten years or so I suspect they have had a board more wiling to got that extra few hundred to £1000 a week to get certain players where as our board will generally not offer as good terms unless it is for what they consider a "marquee" player or player with sell on value such as a Derek Riordan, Anthony Stokes, Liam Miller or James Collins type player. Not that it has really served Aberdeen well as, in the last 10 years, they have been about the same as us overall, only pacing ahead a bit this season after years of spending more than we do on player wages.

[--------]

Id say similar size,but they have a chairman who is interested in the football side,maybe they have spent a lot of money for this success


Unlike Hibs who have spent a lot of money for no success (in the last 7 years)


... and a chairman who seems to see the football team as some kind of optional extra, like electric seat-warmers or spinners on the wheels.

:rolleyes:

[Michael]

Hibs and Aberdeen are very similar in a number of metrics. Both have similar support sizes, budgets (I don't think Clancy's correct) and "success" (or lack of it) over the past 10 or 15 years.

However, Hibs have a modern stadium and top training facilities. Eventually Aberdeen will have to (surely?) do something about their rubbish stadium. How will that affect their player budgets? And for how long?

[The Sea-gull]

Hibs and Aberdeen are very similar in a number of metrics. Both have similar support sizes, budgets (I don't think Clancy's correct) and "success" (or lack of it) over the past 10 or 15 years.

However, Hibs have a modern stadium and top training facilities. Eventually Aberdeen will have to (surely?) do something about their rubbish stadium. How will that affect their player budgets? And for how long?

I think the land Pittodrie sits on is quite valuable and in a reasonable location for development. Their Chairman owns one of Scotland's biggest house builders. I may be putting 2 and 2 together here and getting 5 and also feel it is so simple that there must be a stumbling block as to why it has not been done sooner but some sort of deal may be done on the land Pittodrie occupies involving Stewart Milne Holmes and Aberdeen City Council in some sort of private/public joint development deal in return for a bit of financial assistance plus other types of assistance in building a council partner community stadium and leisure complex for use of AFC and the city itself without costing AFC too much £.

[Hainan Hibs]

Would say the post from "The Seagull" is pretty much spot on.

[Keith_M]

Having seen quite a number of Cabbages and a lot more Sheep (though never in the 'biblical sense'), I can say, without fear of contradiction, that Sheep are generally much larger.


I thought this was meant to be a Football Message Board, not Sesame Street.

[allmodcons]

Id say similar size,but they have a chairman who is interested in the football side,maybe they have spent a lot of money for this success

It wasn't that long ago that a large section of the Aberdeen support wanted Stewart Milne removed.
The argument being that he wasn't putting enough of his own money in to the club.
Amazing how one good season and cup win can change perceptions.

[jakeshibs]

Id say similar size,but they have a chairman who is interested in the football side,maybe they have spent a lot of money for this success

is that the reason? nothing to with the manager I disagree but heh ho

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

Sheep are huge compared to cabbages:agree:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Eventually Aberdeen will have to (surely?) do something about their rubbish stadium. How will that affect their player budgets? And for how long?

How long are people going to take comfort out of this for? The state that Scottish football finds itself in is there any real need for clubs to significantly spend on their infrastructure any time soon? (Apart from our neighbours you would think).

We will never see an open top bus driving down ER cos we've got a sound infrastructure in place.

[Green Reaper]

Sheep are huge compared to cabbages:agree:

Unless the sheep are VERY far away :-)

[Waxy]

Sheep are huge compared to cabbages:agree:Super gardeners have grown mega cabbages to try and win cabbage of the year competitions.These would most likely be bigger than a small sheep.

[offshorehibby]

I think the land Pittodrie sits on is quite valuable and in a reasonable location for development. Their Chairman owns one of Scotland's biggest house builders. I may be putting 2 and 2 together here and getting 5 and also feel it is so simple that there must be a stumbling block as to why it has not been done sooner but some sort of deal may be done on the land Pittodrie occupies involving Stewart Milne Holmes and Aberdeen City Council in some sort of private/public joint development deal in return for a bit of financial assistance plus other types of assistance in building a council partner community stadium and leisure complex for use of AFC and the city itself without costing AFC too much £.

the sheep were all set to sell Pittodrie and move to a new ground but Aberdeen planning dept/council knocked it back, Milne wasn't to happy. As far as i know they are still looking to move some time in the future.

[Michael]

How long are people going to take comfort out of this for? The state that Scottish football finds itself in is there any real need for clubs to significantly spend on their infrastructure any time soon? (Apart from our neighbours you would think).

We will never see an open top bus driving down ER cos we've got a sound infrastructure in place.

Until the roof is rusting and the walls are crumbling. :greengrin

[Jones28]

the sheep were all set to sell Pittodrie and move to a new ground but Aberdeen planning dept/council knocked it back, Milne wasn't to happy. As far as i know they are still looking to move some time in the future.

He was on sportsound saying just that the other night. They plan to move in the next 5 years. Their stadium is finished and they know it.

[Jones28]

Sheep are huge compared to cabbages:agree:

Unless you got an exceptionally large cabbage and put it next to a lamb, then you would see some size similarities.

[basehibby]

Sheep are huge compared to cabbages:agree:
I think you'll find that depends on the cabbage...
http://media.nj.com/hg_impact/photo/11632240-large.jpg
not to mention the sheep...
http://img1.etsystatic.com/009/0/6157099/il_570xN.443594865_2d8x.jpg

[Hibercelona]

They're massive compared to us. Most of them have just been sleeping for 30 odd years. :agree:

[basehibby]

Anyway - it all comes down to fulfilling potential. Hibs have the potential to be a super-cabbage like the one above but are currently just a run of the mill variety that would win no prizes at the village fette having threatened to shrink to the size of a brussel sprout in recent times.

The question is what talent our management team have as "gardeners" and the quantity and quality of "fertiliser" they are given to cultivate our beloved cabbage - given that they are employed by a farmer this should be no problem and given that we are lead by a butcher slaughtering the sheep should come naturally - but there you go....

[Jones28]

I think you'll find that depends on the cabbage...
http://media.nj.com/hg_impact/photo/11632240-large.jpg
not to mention the sheep...
http://img1.etsystatic.com/009/0/6157099/il_570xN.443594865_2d8x.jpg
Exactly :agree:

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

I think you'll find that depends on the cabbage...
http://media.nj.com/hg_impact/photo/11632240-large.jpg
not to mention the sheep...
http://img1.etsystatic.com/009/0/6157099/il_570xN.443594865_2d8x.jpg

Shaun the sheep is bigger:wink:

[leggeto]

is that the reason? nothing to with the manager I disagree but heh ho

is it Petrie who picks the new manager or is it the board,it is frustrating with no rangers and hertz murder now was the time to challenge for the usual 3rd place target now 2nd place,Aberdeen have gambled on that now,they kept mcginn brought in Robson and flood and had a solid defence,Petrie has done a good job on the financial side finished stadium,east mains etc,for that I say well done,but he is a selling chairman as he has done in the past

[jacomo]

Very misleading thread title.

In terms of whether Dons have a bigger player budget than us, Clancy might know. I mean, presumably he spent a lot of time chatting to his agent recently and searching for a new contract, so might have gained some insight into who's paying what.

Wasn't long ago everyone accused Stewart Milne of being disinterested - maybe he's got the bug again. Maybe he sees a great opportunity with Rangers and Hearts oot the picture. A strong Aberdeen is good for Scottish fitba I think.

[leggeto]

Very misleading thread title.

In terms of whether Dons have a bigger player budget than us, Clancy might know. I mean, presumably he spent a lot of time chatting to his agent recently and searching for a new contract, so might have gained some insight into who's paying what.

Wasn't long ago everyone accused Stewart Milne of being disinterested - maybe he's got the bug again. Maybe he sees a great opportunity with Rangers and Hearts oot the picture. A strong Aberdeen is good for Scottish fitba I think.

maybe abergreen could give us some info of how much they can spend or if they went into the overdraft for this season

[craigmounthibby]

Aberdeen are certainly bigger cheats than us. Paying that diving b@****d Pawlett a wage every week...

[lucky]

Very misleading thread title.

In terms of whether Dons have a bigger player budget than us, Clancy might know. I mean, presumably he spent a lot of time chatting to his agent recently and searching for a new contract, so might have gained some insight into who's paying what.

Wasn't long ago everyone accused Stewart Milne of being disinterested - maybe he's got the bug again. Maybe he sees a great opportunity with Rangers and Hearts oot the picture. A strong Aberdeen is good for Scottish fitba I think.

Don't think he's got the bug again, it's probably more to do with the housing market is picking up so he is willing to spend more cash as it's coming in again

[sven nil]

Id say similar size,but they have a chairman who is interested in the football side,maybe they have spent a lot of money for this success
Yes they have a chairman who supports them
And we also have a chairman who supports them.

[Kaiser1962]

Aberdeen spent £5.3m on wages last season compared to Hibs £3.9m on very similar turnover of £7.850m compared to our £8.034m

Generally we are very evenly matched although AFC do pay more in wages.

AFC have lost money in 12 out the last 13 seasons resulting in overall losses for the period of £18.5m. Hibs have been profitable in 7 out of the same 13 seasons with profits of £3.1m.

[jacomo]

Aberdeen spent £5.3m on wages last season compared to Hibs £3.9m on very similar turnover of £7.850m compared to our £8.034m

Generally we are very evenly matched although AFC do pay more in wages.

AFC have lost money in 12 out the last 13 seasons resulting in overall losses for the period of £18.5m. Hibs have been profitable in 7 out of the same 13 seasons with profits of £3.1m.

If those two figures are comparing like with like, then there's the answer.

[Kaiser1962]

If those two figures are comparing like with like, then there's the answer.

That is the largest difference in wage bills since season 2002-2003.

What should not be overlooked is that Aberdeen have lost a significant amount of money over the last 13 seasons with one LC to show for it, same as Hibs.

[emerald green]

Depends how you measure it but I would say we are the 5th biggest club in Scotland though in truth there is not much between us, the Yams and Aberdeen for places 3, 4 and 5 and they have been interchangeable places between the three clubs. I'd say the main measurement of how big a club is can be based on how many people turn up to watch them on a regular basis and how many they have the potential to attract. You could bring number of trophies won, average league placings, head to heads into (incidently do this and we are still 5th biggest) but I'd say that would be for the "who is the most successful club" debate.

The debate on The Rangers and how they should be viewed has been done to death so don't really want to go into that but I would say, based purely on support, they and Celtic are one and two. Can't be bothered debating the order but they are both about as big and ugly as each other for me.

I don't have the stats to hand but I know from reading on this before, in terms of attendances, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen have all had their seasons as the third best supported club but Hearts have had the third best attendance in the most number of season in total. Aberdeen edge Hibs though mainly down to their successful period in the 1980s/very early 90s and there have been a good few seasons where we have a better crowd than them.

For me, out of these three clubs, any of them has the potential to make the "third force" tag their own but none really have done it. You could argue that in the relatively recent past Aberdeen were actually the top team bettering Rangers and Celtic in both trophy hauls and, I believe they got better crowds than Rangers did in the early 1980s and better than Celtic in the early 1990s. They have obviously slipped considerably since then but there is evidence to suggest they may be able to claw support back.

Hearts look to be out the equation for the forseeable though will no doubt post attendances of 14k at the PBS next season when in reality there will be nothing like that there though I do expect their crowds to hold up well to begin with especially if they are making a promotion challenge. The interesting part will be to see how they are followed if they have to spend 2, 3 or more seasons in that league.

And us, we know the fans are there but we need results and performances to get them in. Our big chance for a shot at it was 2004 - 2007 when I am pretty sure we were getting 12k on a bad day and some weeks even near enough filling the stadium no matter who the opposition were. I recall having to run to get a seat for a home game v St Mirren circa 2005/2006 as we were rapidly selling out as kick off approached.

As we know, we failed to capitalise on that as a club which brings me on to a point referenced earlier - do Aberdeen have a bigger budget that us? There were figures posted a while back which suggested they generally turned over slightly more than us and paid out slightly more than us but nowt significant. In the last ten years or so I suspect they have had a board more wiling to got that extra few hundred to £1000 a week to get certain players where as our board will generally not offer as good terms unless it is for what they consider a "marquee" player or player with sell on value such as a Derek Riordan, Anthony Stokes, Liam Miller or James Collins type player. Not that it has really served Aberdeen well as, in the last 10 years, they have been about the same as us overall, only pacing ahead a bit this season after years of spending more than we do on player wages.

Excellent post. :agree:

[leggeto]

We are paying that bunch £3.9 million a season,Jesus Mary and Joseph

[Eyrie]

Aberdeen spent £5.3m on wages last season compared to Hibs £3.9m on very similar turnover of £7.850m compared to our £8.034m

Generally we are very evenly matched although AFC do pay more in wages.

AFC have lost money in 12 out the last 13 seasons resulting in overall losses for the period of £18.5m. Hibs have been profitable in 7 out of the same 13 seasons with profits of £3.1m.

Is that figure for player wages or for all wages, including coaches, admin, retail, hospitality and directors?

[Kaiser1962]

Is that figure for player wages or for all wages, including coaches, admin, retail, hospitality and directors?

Here's whats listed in the accounts.

Aberdeen paid out £5.256m on 114 staff (41 players, 11 management, 19 scouting/youth development, 35 commercial/admin staff and 8 maintenance) with additional renumeration to directors of £302k.

Hibernian paid out £3,857,763 to a total of 81 staff which was broken down in two groups. 60 players and management and 21 commercial and admin staff. Director remunerations for Hibernian was £154,535. Figures are for 2012-2013

[CropleyWasGod]

We are paying that bunch £3.9 million a season,Jesus Mary and Joseph

Jesus, Mary and Joseph were a hell of a half-back line, but they're long gone.

The £3.9m is for all 81 staff.

[capitals_finest]

Depends how you measure it but I would say we are the 5th biggest club in Scotland though in truth there is not much between us, the Yams and Aberdeen for places 3, 4 and 5 and they have been interchangeable places between the three clubs. I'd say the main measurement of how big a club is can be based on how many people turn up to watch them on a regular basis and how many they have the potential to attract. You could bring number of trophies won, average league placings, head to heads into (incidently do this and we are still 5th biggest) but I'd say that would be for the "who is the most successful club" debate.

The debate on The Rangers and how they should be viewed has been done to death so don't really want to go into that but I would say, based purely on support, they and Celtic are one and two. Can't be bothered debating the order but they are both about as big and ugly as each other for me.

I don't have the stats to hand but I know from reading on this before, in terms of attendances, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen have all had their seasons as the third best supported club but Hearts have had the third best attendance in the most number of season in total. Aberdeen edge Hibs though mainly down to their successful period in the 1980s/very early 90s and there have been a good few seasons where we have a better crowd than them.

For me, out of these three clubs, any of them has the potential to make the "third force" tag their own but none really have done it. You could argue that in the relatively recent past Aberdeen were actually the top team bettering Rangers and Celtic in both trophy hauls and, I believe they got better crowds than Rangers did in the early 1980s and better than Celtic in the early 1990s. They have obviously slipped considerably since then but there is evidence to suggest they may be able to claw support back.

Hearts look to be out the equation for the forseeable though will no doubt post attendances of 14k at the PBS next season when in reality there will be nothing like that there though I do expect their crowds to hold up well to begin with especially if they are making a promotion challenge. The interesting part will be to see how they are followed if they have to spend 2, 3 or more seasons in that league.

And us, we know the fans are there but we need results and performances to get them in. Our big chance for a shot at it was 2004 - 2007 when I am pretty sure we were getting 12k on a bad day and some weeks even near enough filling the stadium no matter who the opposition were. I recall having to run to get a seat for a home game v St Mirren circa 2005/2006 as we were rapidly selling out as kick off approached.

As we know, we failed to capitalise on that as a club which brings me on to a point referenced earlier - do Aberdeen have a bigger budget that us? There were figures posted a while back which suggested they generally turned over slightly more than us and paid out slightly more than us but nowt significant. In the last ten years or so I suspect they have had a board more wiling to got that extra few hundred to £1000 a week to get certain players where as our board will generally not offer as good terms unless it is for what they consider a "marquee" player or player with sell on value such as a Derek Riordan, Anthony Stokes, Liam Miller or James Collins type player. Not that it has really served Aberdeen well as, in the last 10 years, they have been about the same as us overall, only pacing ahead a bit this season after years of spending more than we do on player wages.

Good post. Agree with pretty much everything said.

We have developed some good players over the last 10 years or so but I believe player's and manager's attitudes have let us down more so than the other two clubs. Our two best manager's (big eck and TM) have walked as soon as a bigger club has come in for them. Any success is often our downfall and the players have followed suit.

[Eyrie]

Here's whats listed in the accounts.

Aberdeen paid out £5.256m on 114 staff (41 players, 11 management, 19 scouting/youth development, 35 commercial/admin staff and 8 maintenance) with additional renumeration to directors of £302k.

Hibernian paid out £3,857,763 to a total of 81 staff which was broken down in two groups. 60 players and management and 21 commercial and admin staff. Director remunerations for Hibernian was £154,535. Figures are for 2012-2013

Thanks - so the higher wage bill is not necessarily all spent on players. The average for Aberdeen is £46105 against £47626 for us, which would suggest that the player wages are broadly similar (particularly since footballers get paid more than commercial admin or maintenance staff).

Also worth noting that Aberdeen's maintenance staff are employees, whilst it looks like ours are contracted out so don't appear as a wage cost but as a maintenance expense in our accounts. This may also be an explanation for the disparity in commercial/admin numbers between two clubs of a similar size.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Both clubs are of a similar size I would guess. The difference at the moment could be that Aberdeen seem to have decided to speculate a bit to try and capitalize on the woes of The Rangers and the Yams. It seems to be working too with an upturn in their home crowds and success in one cup and a good chance of success in another ..... add that to more prize money for a second place finish and things look pretty good up at Pittodrie.

As has been mentioned already it may be a factor that they have an owner who when able is willing to put his own money into the playing side, whereas Hibs owner is of the opinion that the club must exist on the revenue it generates. Two cup finals in a row have helped the club stave off financial calamity over the last two seasons .......... but what happens now? With no cup final to bolster season ticket sales and the clubs league form as bad as its been over the last number of seasons, how do the club move forward? ..... no chance of a 20,000 home crowd next season either.

Its at times like these that a club needs an owner who is willing ( or brave enough ) to risk some of his own cash in the hope that his help will get the club moving again ...... If you don't have that then you had better have loads of luck. Not something which has been in huge supply around ER lately.

One thing which the Sheep and Hibs have proved though is that the fans are still out there if you give them a reason to turn up. 40,000 tickets sold with a request for more turned down aint too shabby IMO.

[Kaiser1962]

Both clubs are of a similar size I would guess. The difference at the moment could be that Aberdeen seem to have decided to speculate a bit to try and capitalize on the woes of The Rangers and the Yams. It seems to be working too with an upturn in their home crowds and success in one cup and a good chance of success in another ..... add that to more prize money for a second place finish and things look pretty good up at Pittodrie.

Aberdeen are doing what Aberdeen have been doing since they last won the League Cup in 1996 posting losses of £27.5m along the way. Nothing has changed except the personnel.