East Mains 'doing its job'?

[Nailrod]

Having seen the encouraging results of the under-20s in recent weeks, I decided to go back and do a bit of digging into results of under-18s/19s/20s over the last ten years. Final placings in the league as follows:

2001-02: 7th
2002-03: 7th
2003-04: 10th
2004-05: 8th
2005-06: 8th
2006-07: 4th
2007-08: 3rd
2008-09: 1st
2009-10: 12th (Last WTF!!! :confused:)
2010-11: 5th
2011-12: 3rd
2012-13: 3rd
2013-14: Currently 3rd

So apart from that rather bizarre outlier in 09-10, in every season since East Mains opened we've finished higher than in any season before it opened. That indicates there has been a genuine, measurable, and significant improvement in the performance of our young players. For several years we've been consistently one of the best teams in the league. Which suggests that East Mains has played a part in that improvement.

So why are there so few of the youngsters breaking through and really making a big impact in the first team? For example I don't think any of the double-winning side from 08-09 really came through and turned into stars.

IMHO there isn't any big mystery there. For a young player, the step up from youth to senior is a big one, the time envelope available is very short (it's very unlikely that a guy who hasn't made his mark by the time he's 21 is going to go on and achieve anything significant), and confidence is a massive factor.

A young guy coming into a high performing team surrounded by quality players will do well. A young guy coming into a team of plodding journeymen struggling to avoid defeat on a weekly basis is going to have a hard time living up to his potential. It's pretty obvious which alternative our young guys have been dealing with.

Yet more proof, if any were needed, that instead of yet another wholesale exchange of journeymen every time a transfer window comes round, what we really need is to recruit a much smaller number of much better players...

[frazeHFC]

Yet at the same time before East Mains we brought through the 'Golden Generation', since then we have hardly had any players come through who end up good enough. Hope that changes soon though.

[--------]

Having seen the encouraging results of the under-20s in recent weeks, I decided to go back and do a bit of digging into results of under-18s/19s/20s over the last ten years. Final placings in the league as follows:

2001-02: 7th
2002-03: 7th
2003-04: 10th
2004-05: 8th
2005-06: 8th
2006-07: 4th
2007-08: 3rd
2008-09: 1st
2009-10: 12th (Last WTF!!! :confused:)
2010-11: 5th
2011-12: 3rd
2012-13: 3rd
2013-14: Currently 3rd

So apart from that rather bizarre outlier in 09-10, in every season since East Mains opened we've finished higher than in any season before it opened. That indicates there has been a genuine, measurable, and significant improvement in the performance of our young players. For several years we've been consistently one of the best teams in the league. Which suggests that East Mains has played a part in that improvement.

So why are there so few of the youngsters breaking through and really making a big impact in the first team? For example I don't think any of the double-winning side from 08-09 really came through and turned into stars.

IMHO there isn't any big mystery there. For a young player, the step up from youth to senior is a big one, the time envelope available is very short (it's very unlikely that a guy who hasn't made his mark by the time he's 21 is going to go on and achieve anything significant), and confidence is a massive factor. A young guy coming into a high performing team surrounded by quality players will do well. A young guy coming into a team of plodding journeymen struggling to avoid defeat on a weekly basis is going to have a hard time living up to his potential. It's pretty obvious which alternative our young guys have been dealing with.

Yet more proof, if any were needed, that instead of yet another wholesale exchange of journeymen every time a transfer window comes round, what we really need is to recruit a much smaller number of much better players...


If you are suggesting, as I think you are, that we should be looking to field a side with a spine of players of real quality fleshed out by younger players from the youth teams of genuine potential (of which it appears we have an increasing number) I would totally agree.

IIRC, it's not a million miles away from the way Tony Mowbray operated.

(I'd still love to know exactly why TM decided to leave when he did.)

[RIP Bestie]

Having seen the encouraging results of the under-20s in recent weeks, I decided to go back and do a bit of digging into results of under-18s/19s/20s over the last ten years. Final placings in the league as follows:

2001-02: 7th
2002-03: 7th
2003-04: 10th
2004-05: 8th
2005-06: 8th
2006-07: 4th
2007-08: 3rd
2008-09: 1st
2009-10: 12th (Last WTF!!! :confused:)
2010-11: 5th
2011-12: 3rd
2012-13: 3rd
2013-14: Currently 3rd

So apart from that rather bizarre outlier in 09-10, in every season since East Mains opened we've finished higher than in any season before it opened. That indicates there has been a genuine, measurable, and significant improvement in the performance of our young players. For several years we've been consistently one of the best teams in the league. Which suggests that East Mains has played a part in that improvement.

So why are there so few of the youngsters breaking through and really making a big impact in the first team? For example I don't think any of the double-winning side from 08-09 really came through and turned into stars.

IMHO there isn't any big mystery there. For a young player, the step up from youth to senior is a big one, the time envelope available is very short (it's very unlikely that a guy who hasn't made his mark by the time he's 21 is going to go on and achieve anything significant), and confidence is a massive factor.

A young guy coming into a high performing team surrounded by quality players will do well. A young guy coming into a team of plodding journeymen struggling to avoid defeat on a weekly basis is going to have a hard time living up to his potential. It's pretty obvious which alternative our young guys have been dealing with.

Yet more proof, if any were needed, that instead of yet another wholesale exchange of journeymen every time a transfer window comes round, what we really need is to recruit a much smaller number of much better players...
Brilliant point Nailrod. This is a point I've been trying to get over as well. It's amazing that so many others on here can't see it. Not surprising though that so so many others that have chosen not to go to the games anymore have seen it believe this too. When you think of the numbers though they are probably the true voice of the Hibernian support.

[RIP Bestie]

If you are suggesting, as I think you are, that we should be looking to field a side with a spine of players of real quality fleshed out by younger players from the youth teams of genuine potential (of which it appears we have an increasing number) I would totally agree.

IIRC, it's not a million miles away from the way Tony Mowbray operated.

(I'd still love to know exactly why TM decided to leave when he did.)
I'm no expert Doddie but I think it was starting to go sour for Mowbray by the time he left. We were losing some quality players and he really didn't seem to have a plan B. Being forced to sell your main striker before a Scottish Cup Semi Final against your biggest rivals wouldn't have helped either. Oh and a healthy wage packet from West Brom may have just swayed it

[--------]

I'm no expert Doddie but I think it was starting to go sour for Mowbray by the time he left. We were losing some quality players and he really didn't seem to have a plan B. Being forced to sell your main striker before a Scottish Cup Semi Final against your biggest rivals wouldn't have helped either. Oh and a healthy wage packet from West Brom may have just swayed it


I don't know what sort of Plan B would have worked to replace the guys he knew he was going to lose. Cut his losses and go for the big wage packet makes sense.

[RIP Bestie]

I don't know what sort of Plan B would have worked to replace the guys he knew he was going to lose. Cut his losses and go for the big wage packet makes sense.
I remember talking to Sir Alex Ferguson a week or so after the semi final and obviously O'Connor had been sold before it. He said that it was a ludicrous decision and he would have walked if his chairman had done that to him. You could probably imagine how Mowbray felt.

[Nailrod]

If you are suggesting, as I think you are, that we should be looking to field a side with a spine of players of real quality fleshed out by younger players from the youth teams of genuine potential (of which it appears we have an increasing number) I would totally agree.

IIRC, it's not a million miles away from the way Tony Mowbray operated.

(I'd still love to know exactly why TM decided to leave when he did.)1. That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

2. He woke up and could smell the coffee... losing the David Murphys and replacing them with the David Van Zantens...

[Nailrod]

Brilliant point Nailrod. This is a point I've been trying to get over as well. It's amazing that so many others on here can't see it. Not surprising though that so so many others that have chosen not to go to the games anymore have seen it believe this too. When you think of the numbers though they are probably the true voice of the Hibernian support.
I'm encouraged by the growing number of people on the forum who seem to share this view. Maybe it will eventually percolate through to the people who run our club.

[Nailrod]

Yet at the same time before East Mains we brought through the 'Golden Generation', since then we have hardly had any players come through who end up good enough. Hope that changes soon though.It's worth reflecting on the fact that for several years now we have had a youth squad that has been far more successful than it was right at the very time when the 'Golden Generation' were coming through the ranks. You would think we ought to have achieved more success in bringing through good young players, rather than none at all.

[scoopyboy]

1. That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

2. He woke up and could smell the coffee... losing the David Murphys and replacing them with the David Van Zantens...

I like your original post but this post is inaccurate.

David Murphy was with us for over a year after TM left the building.

[Stonewall]

It's worth reflecting on the fact that for several years now we have had a youth squad that has been far more successful than it was right at the very time when the 'Golden Generation' were coming through the ranks. You would think we ought to have achieved more success in bringing through good young players, rather than none at all.

Probably because the "golden generation" were already in and around the first team at that age and not playing much at under 20 level. Same with Hanlon when we won the double.

You could equally argue that a strong under 20 may be a sign problems at the club in that either our youngsters don't have what it takes to break into the first team or are being blocked by frightened managers filling teams with mediocre journeymen.
.

[Jack]

The demise of the reserve league broke our bring young players through mold.

It's ok these guys playing against their own types but when they come up against experienced, in all respects, pros its too big a step for many and hence the failure rate.

The reserve league gave an opportunity for these guys to take a step up and mix it under the influence of our own experienced pros. They were also more likely to get a wee bit more time to develop before exposure to the big time.

[Pete]

Brilliant point Nailrod. This is a point I've been trying to get over as well. It's amazing that so many others on here can't see it. Not surprising though that so so many others that have chosen not to go to the games anymore have seen it believe this too. When you think of the numbers though they are probably the true voice of the Hibernian support.

So, people who choose not to go to games because everything isn't to their liking are the "true voice of the Hibernian support"?

Good points are being made but comments like this and its approval suggest there's a group of posters who are in danger of disappearing up their own erses.

[Bristolhibby]

I like your original post but this post is inaccurate.

David Murphy was with us for over a year after TM left the building.

And win a Cup.

Ahhh, what a team that was.

Murph, Jones, Whittaker, Brown, Fletcher, Boozy, Zemmama, Benji, Sproule.

J

[down-the-slope]

The demise of the reserve league broke our bring young players through mold.

It's ok these guys playing against their own types but when they come up against experienced, in all respects, pros its too big a step for many and hence the failure rate.

The reserve league gave an opportunity for these guys to take a step up and mix it under the influence of our own experienced pros. They were also more likely to get a wee bit more time to develop before exposure to the big time.

:agree: been banging this drum since the stupid decision (predicated by those self interested idiots that were the OF - saying it was too costly! :rolleyes:)
Expressing your talent with players of same age / experience / physical size is a massive step change away from showing that talent on a pitch with big hairy ersed long in the tooth pros who are desperate to get back into 1st team squad and will stand on your pretty little face to achieve that......

[Speedy]

Probably because the "golden generation" were already in and around the first team at that age and not playing much at under 20 level. Same with Hanlon when we won the double.

You could equally argue that a strong under 20 may be a sign problems at the club in that either our youngsters don't have what it takes to break into the first team or are being blocked by frightened managers filling teams with mediocre journeymen.
.

This is a very good point.

[Ronniekirk]

This is a very good point.
T B said he would rather see young players giving there all than stick with those that were letting him down so we will see how gets the chance against st Johnstone or whether he is just all talk The line up of under 20 team against thier under 20 team was very attack minded and we won 3 1 Zoubir scoring twice so let's see how many make it into squad

[Ronniekirk]

If you are suggesting, as I think you are, that we should be looking to field a side with a spine of players of real quality fleshed out by younger players from the youth teams of genuine potential (of which it appears we have an increasing number) I would totally agree.

IIRC, it's not a million miles away from the way Tony Mowbray operated.

(I'd still love to know exactly why TM decided to leave when he did.)

No problem with above and we are producing players who are being given thier chanceï But many are called and few cement there place in side the way brown Thompson Whittaker did but yes we don't have the quality players to do this now Boozy ,Murphy,Captain Jones so it is double edged sword just now .Still think Petrie naively thought the gravy train would flow and he cashed in on players too quickly without replacing them with quality Did he get too greedy ? And did he have and maybe still has too Mutch power in this area As it's clear looking back that the club and team have never totally recovered from that period and turn over of loan and solid journeymen that turn out to be not so solid needs to stop So we are back to what is the vision for club in next three years under T b and need I think for a joint press statement with Petrie and T B spelling this out That might shift more season tickets than this Army Theme they have embarked on as the Troops need a General and there has to be a Strategy embedded to win the Battle or we will continue to fail in our skirmishes with clubs that already have that in place even though they are poorer supported than us .

[Mikey]

The demise of the reserve league broke our bring young players through mold.

It's ok these guys playing against their own types but when they come up against experienced, in all respects, pros its too big a step for many and hence the failure rate.

The reserve league gave an opportunity for these guys to take a step up and mix it under the influence of our own experienced pros. They were also more likely to get a wee bit more time to develop before exposure to the big time.

That's where the EOS team benefits. It gives them the chance to play against older, streetwise players.

Anyone know which league they go to after promotion?

[offshorehibby]

The demise of the reserve league broke our bring young players through mold.

It's ok these guys playing against their own types but when they come up against experienced, in all respects, pros its too big a step for many and hence the failure rate.

The reserve league gave an opportunity for these guys to take a step up and mix it under the influence of our own experienced pros. They were also more likely to get a wee bit more time to develop before exposure to the big time.

Jack that's the way I see it. The reserve league was a good place to blood some of the youngsters and have them playing against older, stronger players. Don't know it it's a coincidence but i think the reserve league stopped in season 08/09. If i recall the infirm were 2 of the main players in getting it stopped.


That's where the EOS team benefits. It gives them the chance to play against older, streetwise players.

Anyone know which league they go to after promotion?

I think the youngsters playing in the EOS 1st division could be a good replacement for the old reserve league. They'll have learnt to adapt their game playing against some bruisers. EOS Hibs should go up to the EOS premier league next season, with games getting a lot harder.

I said on a thread ages ago i would like to see the new pyramid system filter right through football. the natural progression for this would be to go from the the EOS Premier into the Lowland league and upward from there.

TB had a throw away comment in an interview a couple of weeks back saying ' If we play in a reserve league next season, who knows'. Iv'e not heard anything but the comment seems to suggest it's a possibility.


The OP suggestion, i would like to see us bring in more quality and have a bigger sprinkling of youngsters come into the team but only if their capable.

[J-C]

If a player is good enough, he's old enough is the old adage, well maybe Tb will start to do this. Mowbray certainly did but we were also very lucky to have the golden generation as you call them coming through at the time. As has been said, our recent managers have brought in pish to fill the 1st team and a good few youngsters haven't been given the chance, maybe time to rethink and have a look at what Dundee U are doing, youth and experience mixed together.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

In a word?

No!

[GreenOnions]

The way we think about East Mains can be skewed by taking into account the period before when O'Connor, Riordan, Brown, Thomson, Whittaker and Fletcher came through. That truly was extraordinary and few Scottish teams have produced such a talented batch from its own youth set-up in such a short space of time during the last 30 years - including Hibs.

If they had come though during the 1980s and we had managed to get them on "Jim McLean" contracts and held onto the group we might well have won several trophies - including the league IMO.

Most football people will say that if you can successfully integrate one player each year from the youth set-up into the first team then that is an excellent result.

The players who have moved up since East Mains has been in operation and have stayed in and around the first team (as far as I can recall) are:

Paul Hanlon - 2008
Calum Booth - 2010
Danny Handling - 2012
Ross Caldwell - 2012
Alex Harris - 2013
Jordon Forster - 2013
Sam Stanton - 2014
Jason Cummings - 2014

If you look at that it would appear that there was not much output for the first five years but maybe, just maybe we're starting to see more of a return from it now.

The door is still open for Booth, Handling and Caldwell although none has really nailed it yet.

However, like many on here, I rate Hanlon, Harris, Forster and Stanton very highly. Cummings is still only 18 and seems to have the potential too.

I would be happy to see a first team next year that included Hanlon, Harris, Forster and Stanton. If some others can make the step up that would be great too. In terms of the number of quality players in our first team that have come up through the system I think that's pretty good compared to most of our competitors.

The point is though that, especially over the last two or three years, East Mains has been producing for the first team. It's the failure to add to that via quality signings from other clubs that has been our undoing. That's where the likes of Motherwell, Dundee Utd, Inverness and most recently - Aberdeen - have been more effective than us.

[--------]

I like your original post but this post is inaccurate.

David Murphy was with us for over a year after TM left the building.


David Murphy was one of a number of players who had formed the backbone of Mowbray's side, who were going to leave the club, and who weren't going to be replaced in any way adequately.

Wasn't it the case that when TM left all but O'Connor and Riordan were still at ER? It was John Collins who had to watch the team just disappear before his eyes. The guys he brought in were disastrous, but Mixu brought in some decent players - who left almost immediately, for money, again not to be replaced? And then Yogi lost his best players, and we got Calderwood, who was as much use as a chocolate teapot, and then Fenlon, and now Butcher ...

No wonder the fans have got so ticked-off and dissatisfied.

It remains very much to be seen what TB will be able to do with the squad in the summer, but if he brings in yet another job-lot of football journeymen, I'll conclude that nothing fundamental or important has changed.

[Jones28]

I like this way of looking at things. Much more positive and upbeat. When it clicks for Hibs it really will click, and East Mains will no longer be seen as a massive waste.

FWIW, if we are still in this position in 3 years time I will still say that the board etc did it the right way.

[Keith_M]

Clubs that have a successful path from youth team to 1st team are generally ones with a more settled, long term structure in place. Take the Liverpool example of the 70's/80s's. They had a long term strategy worked out, whereby the young players were coached to play in the same style and tactics as the 1st team, meaning that any that stepped up could slot much easier into the team.

Compare that to Hibs in the last 7 years. We're now on our sixth manager, each with a very different idea of how to play the game. Add to that the constant turnover in journeymen players, mostly aimed at avoiding relegation, and it hardly makes it easy for a young player to make the step up.

I'm hoping that the arrival of Butcher can at least lead to some level of stability at the club, despite the fact we are yet again about to have a big turnover of players in the summer. I just hope he recognises the value of East Mains and of bringing through the younger players.

[steviehibsleith]

Looking at Under 20s League position and trying to corralate this good positon to producing good players is way off the mark. Dependent on how big a squad your first team is will then allow you play four strong overage players thus propelling you to a higher position in the league.

Dundee Utd are 13th and Hibs are third Yet they are producing realy good individuals. It is not about winning Leagues or games it is about the development of footballers not a team that can do well, but individuals who progress to the first team.

[leggeto]

The demise of the reserve league broke our bring young players through mold.

It's ok these guys playing against their own types but when they come up against experienced, in all respects, pros its too big a step for many and hence the failure rate.

The reserve league gave an opportunity for these guys to take a step up and mix it under the influence of our own experienced pros. They were also more likely to get a wee bit more time to develop before exposure to the big time.

spot on,every club misses the reserves,when the lads reach 21 and not quite good enough to make the 1st team there was no contract offer,hopefully with the EOS league we can keep them and give them games to see how they turn out

[IWasThere2016]

Yet more proof, if any were needed, that instead of yet another wholesale exchange of journeymen every time a transfer window comes round, what we really need is to recruit a much smaller number of much better players...

This. 4 or 5 good signings - through the spine of the side - keeper, CH, CM and upfront - are an absolute must IMHO.

[The Green Goblin]

I have often posted that I don't see how EM actually helps us but the excellent posts on this thread have really made me rethink and there are various things I hadn't considered. Happy to admit I was wrong :greengrin However, I totally agree with Nailrod's point about the team needing those 2 or 3 top players who will raise the game around them and inspire the fans too.

[PatHead]

To me one of the big problems is that the head of the youth set up at East Mains has us playing a certain style of football- I understand a passing game in the "Hibs way".

Each of the managers lately have had us playing in a totally different style. That means that for a player to make the step up from U20s to the first team he not only has to adapt to a more physical game but a totally different style of game. We are therefore not getting the benefit of the players from day one and it will take longer to get the reward.

Surely the Manager should dictate the style of football the U20s play to help this transition? Players should also learn to play more than one system which would benefit them in the long run.

I also understand there is a hall of fame at East Mains which has players who have come through the system and played a certain number of games for Senior clubs. Personally I would ditch that and only allow players who have played a certain number of games for Hibs. Yet another example of how we are "too nice" and a soft touch. Personally if you don't do it for Hibs on the park or get us a transfer fee I couldn't care where you go onto.

I will stand corrected if I am wrong about the hall of fame and style of play.

[Unseen work]

Like someone said in our team right now under contract we have
Booth, Cummings, Hanlon, Forster, Harris, Stanton, handling, Caldwell, Stevenson,

Who are all home grown players which is a very impressive stat. IMO Hanlon and Forster are our best defenders Stevenson is always good but just isn't quite sure what his best position is.

Of the new lot IMO they all have skill and link up together very well when they play and are all really comfortable on the ball. The biggest problem for them IMO is confidence/consistency.

Wether that's to do with not getting the guidance from the guys around them or what, but when and if terry brings in the correct type of guys to compliment these youngsters we will see a good young attacking hibs side.

That's not mentioning guys like black, baptie, smith, Gardiner, horribine and gold who consistently play well for the 20s

[Greencore]

Yet at the same time before East Mains we brought through the 'Golden Generation', since then we have hardly had any players come through who end up good enough. Hope that changes soon though.
John Park left for celtic...

[Jack]

I have often posted that I don't see how EM actually helps us but the excellent posts on this thread have really made me rethink and there are various things I hadn't considered. Happy to admit I was wrong :greengrin However, I totally agree with Nailrod's point about the team needing those 2 or 3 top players who will raise the game around them and inspire the fans too.

I think you could add to the points already raised something around injuries.

I would suggest that training in an environment, good playing surfaces etc., very similar to that of the 'real' pitches they play on on a Saturday will reduce injuries.

Injuries picked up, training and playing, can be treated more effectively thus reducing the time players are unavailable.

[heretoday]

Do Aberdeen have an East Mains type facility? Or do they just have a chairman who shells out cash?

[silverhibee]

John Park left for celtic...

Who did John Park replace at Hibs and did he (JP) do any coaching with players at Hibs.?

I can always remember Donald Park watching youth games around Edinburgh back then but i got the impression that DP was youth coach at Hibs but his enthusiasm for just being out and about looking at the next future of players coming through in the EOSYL at the time that brought him out to watch the young teams, the man just seemed to love football, but i am pretty sure it was Martin Ferguson who done the scouting for Hibs at that time, if my memory serves me right it was him that scouted Deek and Gaz for Hibs.

Anyone no why Martin Ferguson was sacked by Hibs.?

[RIP Bestie]

So, people who choose not to go to games because everything isn't to their liking are the "true voice of the Hibernian support"?

Good points are being made but comments like this and its approval suggest there's a group of posters who are in danger of disappearing up their own erses.
Could have expected this sort of response from you . The point is that the opinions of posters on Hibs.net do not necessarily reflect the feeling of the Hibs support as a whole. I'm sure the sum of supporters that have decided to stay away would be far greater than the membership of hibs.net.

[PeterboroHibee]

Looking at Under 20s League position and trying to corralate this good positon to producing good players is way off the mark. Dependent on how big a squad your first team is will then allow you play four strong overage players thus propelling you to a higher position in the league.

Dundee Utd are 13th and Hibs are third Yet they are producing realy good individuals. It is not about winning Leagues or games it is about the development of footballers not a team that can do well, but individuals who progress to the first team.

Im not convinced United are doing any more than us in terms of producing players, but rather they have a more stable environment for the players to come into, and tend to be better in the transfer market. If you look at their current first team for example, there are 5 guys who have recently come through their youth academy - Gauld, Souttar, Armstrong, Dow and Watson. If you compare that to our team, we have Hanlon, Stanton, Harris, Forster, Handling and Cummings. Gauld and Souttar are obviously exceptional talents for their age, but we have some good young players who arguably arent able to have as big an impact on games because of the lack of quality or confidence in the first team.

[Haymaker]

East Mains seems to have the mission to develop players to appear and become regulars for the first team and I would say that it has done so with regular success, not many clubs can really say they have consistently brought through players who continue in the professional game at the same and higher levels, I have several friends who work in EPL academies and mostly they attempt to get one player shirt-numbered per season, not necessarily appearing, so EMs youth section is working brilliantly. The difficulty is in the next step and the loss of reserves has clearly hurt our teams development, in my opinion the EOS league side should have been sounded out earlier or a "mini" league set up with regular bounce games vs the rat-eaters, Dundee United, Falkirk maybe Motherwell? Not an "official" reserve league but this is redundant now.

In my opinion the youth should be developed to play with composure and encouraged to play from the back - they are developing! They should be playing different formations to understand changes in management/tactics that may happen, change positions to understand their partners and opposition players - they are developing footballers and things like technique and skills become harder to learn and change as they grow older. Composure on the ball is a mental strength that needs as much development in the early stages on their development - it is to me one of the most important aspects of a footballer, if you aren't comfortable and composed when you receive the ball you will make the wrong decision and the best way to learn that is to play patient, building football allowing players to receive the ball as much as possible in varying situations.

However the youth teams are one thing - the EoS team is basically our reserves if I am correct, first teamers can play and they will be facing some proper cloggers - guys who love trying to boot a tricky professional in the air. Now for me the EoS team needs to play like the first team as it is the gap they need to bridge. If TB and MM want to play direct then these kids need to understand how to play direct in what is basically a pressure free environment, they can still make mistakes and learn without thousands of screaming fans getting on their backs so that when they do get a shot at the 1st team they will fit right in with TBs plans as they are right now.

[Eyrie]

To me one of the big problems is that the head of the youth set up at East Mains has us playing a certain style of football- I understand a passing game in the "Hibs way".

Each of the managers lately have had us playing in a totally different style. That means that for a player to make the step up from U20s to the first team he not only has to adapt to a more physical game but a totally different style of game. We are therefore not getting the benefit of the players from day one and it will take longer to get the reward.

Surely the Manager should dictate the style of football the U20s play to help this transition? Players should also learn to play more than one system which would benefit them in the long run.

I also understand there is a hall of fame at East Mains which has players who have come through the system and played a certain number of games for Senior clubs. Personally I would ditch that and only allow players who have played a certain number of games for Hibs. Yet another example of how we are "too nice" and a soft touch. Personally if you don't do it for Hibs on the park or get us a transfer fee I couldn't care where you go onto.

I will stand corrected if I am wrong about the hall of fame and style of play.

This came up in another thread and I responded that the logical consequence is that the U20s will need to learn a new style of play each time there is a change of manager, which makes it harder for them to break into the first team. Where is the benefit in that?

I'd rather have a consistent style of play throughout all the youth teams and then look for a manager in tune with our philosophy. If the manager leaves, then the new man won't have to ditch half the players because they don't suit his tactical approach, leading to an unsettled squad and the sort of turmoil that Nailrod mentioned in his opening post. Instead the new man will have the right type of player in place and will only need to replace a few who aren't good enough, which would allow us to focus on quality over quantity at each transfer window.

[Pete]

Could have expected this sort of response from you . The point is that the opinions of posters on Hibs.net do not necessarily reflect the feeling of the Hibs support as a whole. I'm sure the sum of supporters that have decided to stay away would be far greater than the membership of hibs.net.

I think this board does actually reflect the opinion of the hibs support as a whole. People that stay away certainly make their feelings known and there is a high percentage of threads criticising the board etc..
If anything, it's inaccurate because of too many negative opinions.

Perhaps my comment was harsh but describing some unquantifiable group of dissenters and revolutionaries as a "true voice" irked me. That title belongs to the season book holders and regular attenders who are only really interested in the football and go regardless of who is in charge.

Sorry for the tangent. Carry on everyone :greengrin:

[matty_f]

This came up in another thread and I responded that the logical consequence is that the U20s will need to learn a new style of play each time there is a change of manager, which makes it harder for them to break into the first team. Where is the benefit in that?

I'd rather have a consistent style of play throughout all the youth teams and then look for a manager in tune with our philosophy. If the manager leaves, then the new man won't have to ditch half the players because they don't suit his tactical approach, leading to an unsettled squad and the sort of turmoil that Nailrod mentioned in his opening post. Instead the new man will have the right type of player in place and will only need to replace a few who aren't good enough, which would allow us to focus on quality over quantity at each transfer window.
Agree with that, I think it's an easier and more natural means to get youth players into the first team by bringing in a manager whose style is consistent with that of the academy rather than changing the academy with each manager.

[Brizo]

Looking at Under 20s League position and trying to corralate this good positon to producing good players is way off the mark. Dependent on how big a squad your first team is will then allow you play four strong overage players thus propelling you to a higher position in the league.

Dundee Utd are 13th and Hibs are third Yet they are producing realy good individuals. It is not about winning Leagues or games it is about the development of footballers not a team that can do well, but individuals who progress to the first team.

:agree:

High under 20 league positions are meaningless unless those under 20s can progress to the first team and contribute to the first team reaching similar heights.

While good facilities help , good scouting, good early years coaching and a joined up football policy from youth through to senior players are more important factors in bringing through youngsters to first team standard. I also think theres a big element of luck involved, , sometimes a group of exceptional players will just all come through at the same time. Man U have never been able to reproduce their "golden generation" despite all their resources, we haven't come anywhere near finding another golden generation despite now possessing vastly improved facilities.

DUFC are currently benefiting from a great group of youngsters but ill be amazed if its the start of a "conveyor belt" to use a football cliché. if we bring through a similar group in the future while EM will have played a part I don't think it will have been a main factor.

[Stonewall]

Do Aberdeen have an East Mains type facility? Or do they just have a chairman who shells out cash?

Neither: Chairman gave up overspending years ago and I think they may train at the Uni. (could be wrong though).

[Ronniekirk]

:agree:

High under 20 league positions are meaningless unless those under 20s can progress to the first team and contribute to the first team reaching similar heights.

While good facilities help , good scouting, good early years coaching and a joined up football policy from youth through to senior players are more important factors in bringing through youngsters to first team standard. I also think theres a big element of luck involved, , sometimes a group of exceptional players will just all come through at the same time. Man U have never been able to reproduce their "golden generation" despite all their resources, we haven't come anywhere near finding another golden generation despite now possessing vastly improved facilities.

DUFC are currently benefiting from a great group of youngsters but ill be amazed if its the start of a "conveyor belt" to use a football cliché. if we bring through a similar group in the future while EM will have played a part I don't think it will have been a main factor.

Interesting post also Sevco often did well at that level but not many young players made it all the way to the top .

[RIP Bestie]

I think this board does actually reflect the opinion of the hibs support as a whole. People that stay away certainly make their feelings known and there is a high percentage of threads criticising the board etc..
If anything, it's inaccurate because of too many negative opinions.

Perhaps my comment was harsh but describing some unquantifiable group of dissenters and revolutionaries as a "true voice" irked me. That title belongs to the season book holders and regular attenders who are only really interested in the football and go regardless of who is in charge.

Sorry for the tangent. Carry on everyone :greengrin:
You are of course dead right, the people who go and support the team and buy the season tickets are the lifeblood of the club. I take the point that describing those who stay away as the True voice of the support is inaccurate. The point I was trying to make was that the numbers of stay away fans are increasing all the time and transfer window after transfer window is doing nothing to entice them back there fore their action is highlighting that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

[Ronniekirk]

You are of course dead right, the people who go and support the team and buy the season tickets are the lifeblood of the club. I take the point that describing those who stay away as the True voice of the support is inaccurate. The point I was trying to make was that the numbers of stay away fans are increasing all the time and transfer window after transfer window is doing nothing to entice them back there fore their action is highlighting that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

It's clear for everyone to see how average crowds. Have slipped and we really can't afford to dip under 8 ,000 or it's not going to help the Transfer Budget I am a regular walk up but have missed several home games in past few Seasons .I bought half season tickets under Mowbry so it's clear when we have a good team more fans are enticed back .I am in position where I can afford a Season Ticket even though I won't be able to go to every game so I have bought one as I think we will turn the corner , but it's a leap of faith with Hibs and Butchers track record is what has made me want to get one now.

[HappyHibby93]

Interesting thread. For me, when you look at Aberdeen success so far, its clear that they have a good mix of decent youth players, combined with older heads. However, the older heads that have been brought in are, in my opinion, of better quality than what Fenlon brought in. I have no doubt in my mind that Terry Butcher will be able to mix the good young players we have with decent, more experienced bodies. I would say that one of the main reasons Aberdeen have done so well is due to a very good balance, between, not just young and old, but also between attack and defence. They have a good mix in the midfield between defensively solid players ( Willo Flood) and quality in attack (Peter Pawlett). Terry Butcher will find that balance, and for me we have a Pawlett type of player already in Sam Stanton. we just need to find that balance.