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Bertie's XI
15-03-2014, 06:47 PM
Anyone know a link to the post match interview?

Alfred E Newman
15-03-2014, 06:52 PM
Anyone know a link to the post match interview?

I wouldn't bother, we've heard it before.

Niffy
15-03-2014, 06:57 PM
Aye.. "Dissapointed, they know theyve let themselves down... theyve let the fans down" "we've got some work to do, we know that" "new season, fresh players " blah blah blah.

Speedway
15-03-2014, 06:59 PM
When asked what disappointed him most, Butcher said: "Lots of things.

"I think Hibs fans have seen this performance so many times. Performances like that have happened all too often for Hibs in the past.

"It will be an interesting team selection next week. I'd rather go with kids and lose if we're going to lose, but let's go with kids, at least they're honest.

"Today Watmore and Sam Stanton were excellent for us and they tried their socks off, and they are being let down by other players.

"We pushed Sam out wide left to have a go at the full-back and he got into a good position for the goal, but I need three or four Sam Stantons in the team and I haven't got that.

"I need three or four Duncan Watmores in the team and I haven't got that.

"They're game boys and if you look for any comfort from the game - and there's not much - those two would provide it between themselves, so it will be interesting next week.

"We'll certainly have a look at team selection because we've got eight battles now. I don't like being let down. I do not like being let down."


http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11792/9215909/scottish-premiership-terry-butcher-slams-hibs-after-3-1-defeat-at-partrick

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 07:04 PM
Well at least he's making a statement of intent to change things about for the next game. So it will be interesting to see if he actually stays true to his word or not.

But sadly, I feel he should have done this a few games earlier.

SaulGoodman
15-03-2014, 07:04 PM
When asked what disappointed him most, Butcher said: "Lots of things.

"I think Hibs fans have seen this performance so many times. Performances like that have happened all too often for Hibs in the past.

"It will be an interesting team selection next week. I'd rather go with kids and lose if we're going to lose, but let's go with kids, at least they're honest.

"Today Watmore and Sam Stanton were excellent for us and they tried their socks off, and they are being let down by other players.

"We pushed Sam out wide left to have a go at the full-back and he got into a good position for the goal, but I need three or four Sam Stantons in the team and I haven't got that.

"I need three or four Duncan Watmores in the team and I haven't got that.

"They're game boys and if you look for any comfort from the game - and there's not much - those two would provide it between themselves, so it will be interesting next week.

"We'll certainly have a look at team selection because we've got eight battles now. I don't like being let down. I do not like being let down."


http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11792/9215909/scottish-premiership-terry-butcher-slams-hibs-after-3-1-defeat-at-partrick

Can't argue with that. But sick of seeing good interviews and nothing happening.

"I'd rather go with Kids and lose if we're going to lose"

Well, you said it, Tel. Bin the dross. Get the youngsters in.

flash
15-03-2014, 07:05 PM
It's a decent interview and he says what we are all thinking.

There's a lot of pish on here these days about team selections but the sad fact is there isn't a decent eleven between the lot of them.

Butcher is quite rightly finding out who he can rely on and there ain't many. He needs our support in his efforts to turn things around.

Personally I reckon he and Malpas are the men to change things but time will tell.

bingo70
15-03-2014, 07:13 PM
I personally dont think blaming the players after every defeat and saying theyre not good enough is good man management. How can he get inside their head and install confidence before tge next game?

Hes given up on this season and thats not good enough imo.

matty_f
15-03-2014, 07:15 PM
It's a decent interview and he says what we are all thinking.

There's a lot of pish on here these days about team selections but the sad fact is there isn't a decent eleven between the lot of them.

Butcher is quite rightly finding out who he can rely on and there ain't many. He needs our support in his efforts to turn things around.

Personally I reckon he and Malpas are the men to change things but time will tell.
:agree: I think going with youth is Butcher's best chance now. These players know they're on the way out and are not playing for Butcher.

Pretty Boy
15-03-2014, 07:16 PM
I personally dont think blaming the players after every defeat and saying theyre not good enough is good man management. How can he get inside their head and install confidence before tge next game?

Hes given up on this season and thats not good enough imo.

I think he tried the softly softly approach early on. Comments about being surprised about how good the squad was etc.

Comes a point where he just has to be honest. We have a rank rotten squad and would be as well picking 11 names out a hat as there isn't a decent team between the lot of them.

Torto7062
15-03-2014, 07:17 PM
It's a decent interview and he says what we are all thinking.

There's a lot of pish on here these days about team selections but the sad fact is there isn't a decent eleven between the lot of them.

Butcher is quite rightly finding out who he can rely on and there ain't many. He needs our support in his efforts to turn things around.

Personally I reckon he and Malpas are the men to change things but time will tell.


Couldnae agree any more..

Get rid o the dross

matty_f
15-03-2014, 07:17 PM
I personally dont think blaming the players after every defeat and saying theyre not good enough is good man management. How can he get inside their head and install confidence before tge next game?

Hes given up on this season and thats not good enough imo.

Said similar on the pm board, Butcher's biggest mistake has been making it clear he's getting rid of most of the team at the earliest opportunity. It's got to be difficult getting them to perform for you when they know you don't rare them.

Niffy
15-03-2014, 07:18 PM
If we get rid of all the dross at HFC... they'll be nobody left.... I reckon even the folk that cut the grass are ****.

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 07:19 PM
I personally dont think blaming the players after every defeat and saying theyre not good enough is good man management. How can he get inside their head and install confidence before tge next game?

Hes given up on this season and thats not good enough imo.

I don't think he's saying what he's saying because he wants them to do badly. But clearly there's some problem with players egos at the club and they could do with a reality check.

Hopefully they get a reality check next week, when they're not even keeping the bench warm.

SaulGoodman
15-03-2014, 07:20 PM
Said similar on the pm board, Butcher's biggest mistake has been making it clear he's getting rid of most of the team at the earliest opportunity. It's got to be difficult getting them to perform for you when they know you don't rare them.

That won't matter if he doesn't play them though.

He's said it now, if he goes with Collins, Nelson and the likes next week I'll be very disappointed.

matty_f
15-03-2014, 07:21 PM
That won't matter if he doesn't play them though.

He's said it now, if he goes with Collins, Nelson and the likes next week I'll be very disappointed.

Completely agree.

lucky
15-03-2014, 07:21 PM
Said similar on the pm board, Butcher's biggest mistake has been making it clear he's getting rid of most of the team at the earliest opportunity. It's got to be difficult getting them to perform for you when they know you don't rare them.

But if do perform they could change his mind or win another spl contract elsewhere

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 07:22 PM
Said similar on the pm board, Butcher's biggest mistake has been making it clear he's getting rid of most of the team at the earliest opportunity. It's got to be difficult getting them to perform for you when they know you don't rare them.

If I was a player playing under Butcher in these circumstances. I'd be busting a gut for him to prove to him that i'm worth it.

If these players can't see it that way, then it won't matter how the manager treats them, they simply won't perform either way.

matty_f
15-03-2014, 07:23 PM
But if do perform they could change his mind or win another spl contract elsewhere

Yep, but I don't think these players have the sense to realise that.

silverhibee
15-03-2014, 07:23 PM
Looked like Watmore Stanton Taiwo and Foster all picked up knocks/injuries today.

flash
15-03-2014, 07:24 PM
If I was a player playing under Butcher in these circumstances. I'd be busting a gut for him to prove to him that i'm worth it.

If these players can't see it that way, then it won't matter how the manager treats them, they simply won't perform either way.

Correct.

None of these jokers will leave and go on to better things.

JCHibby
15-03-2014, 07:26 PM
I personally dont think blaming the players after every defeat and saying theyre not good enough is good man management. How can he get inside their head and install confidence before tge next game?

Hes given up on this season and thats not good enough imo.

How about when the players are completely ignoring what they are being asked to do. What you think then?

greenlex
15-03-2014, 07:26 PM
I didn't see excellence from Watmore today. Good finish but in general average at best. Well shackled to be fair. Stanton was decent though.

SaulGoodman
15-03-2014, 07:26 PM
Looked like Watmore Stanton Taiwo and Foster all picked up knocks/injuries today.

Bad ones? If we don't have Watmore and Stanton next week we'd be as well throwing in the towel

Billy Whizz
15-03-2014, 07:27 PM
Looked like Watmore Stanton Taiwo and Foster all picked up knocks/injuries today.

Watmore and Stanton were virtual passengers for last 10 mins or so, and we'd used all our subs. Hopefully nothing too serious

Matty_Jack04
15-03-2014, 07:29 PM
I personally dont think blaming the players after every defeat and saying theyre not good enough is good man management. How can he get inside their head and install confidence before tge next game?

Hes given up on this season and thats not good enough imo.

It should never be the case but I think your right the problem is i can hardly blame him, these guys must be going in a doing the business in training to warrant being picked on the Saturday there then continually letting everyone down, it's not his team he's not signed these guys and they obviously have no interest in hanging about to be part of TB's team so it's not surprising he's lost faith in them or in helping them be better players

Stantons Angel
15-03-2014, 07:29 PM
Can't argue with that. But sick of seeing good interviews and nothing happening.

"I'd rather go with Kids and lose if we're going to lose"

Well, you said it, Tel. Bin the dross. Get the youngsters in.

What worries me is when the kids do get in and they dont start winning, what happens then?

Will our fickle support turn on them and destroy their confidence too??

its too much for the kids to take on their shoulders at this stage of the season.

We need experience to get us through the rest of the season, Thomson, Heffernan & Stevenson sitting on the bench and we are getting beaten every week?

For the past few seasons its been said " wait till the summer, he will get his own players in" its being said time and again. It wont be long now till we hear the old cry for the managers head.

Just wait and see!!!

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 07:34 PM
What worries me is when the kids do get in and they dont start winning, what happens then?

Will our fickle support turn on them and destroy their confidence too??

its too much for the kids to take on their shoulders at this stage of the season.

Honestly, I think fans would just be happy to see some effort and intent to win games, even if we don't win games up to the end of the season.

Losing while trying would be considered an improvement at the moment. Thats how far we've fallen.

Niffy
15-03-2014, 07:34 PM
TB is beginning to get on ma wick with these lame threats... if I was to be given a quid for every player that played today that starts next week... I reckon I'll have 10 or 11 quid.

jeffers
15-03-2014, 07:34 PM
It should never be the case but I think your right the problem is i can hardly blame him, these guys must be going in a doing the business in training to warrant being picked on the Saturday there then continually letting everyone down, it's not his team he's not signed these guys and they obviously have no interest in hanging about to be part of TB's team so it's not surprising he's lost faith in them or in helping them be better players

The trouble is, by my reckoning only 3 of today's starting eleven are out of contract in the summer + Watmore. So unless we are going to pay some players off I don't see how we are going to see a whole new team for next season.

SaulGoodman
15-03-2014, 07:35 PM
What worries me is when the kids do get in and they dont start winning, what happens then?

Will our fickle support turn on them and destroy their confidence too??

its too much for the kids to take on their shoulders at this stage of the season.

We need experience to get us through the rest of the season, Thomson, Heffernan & Stevenson sitting on the bench and we are getting beaten every week?

For the past few seasons its been said " wait till the summer, he will get his own players in" its being said time and again. It wont be long now till we hear the old cry for the managers head.

Just wait and see!!!

Let's be honest, the kids just need to get it on the deck and TRY. I don't think anyone would berate them for that..

.. Anythings better than watching Nelson hoof it in the general direction of Collins all day.

flash
15-03-2014, 07:35 PM
What worries me is when the kids do get in and they dont start winning, what happens then?

Will our fickle support turn on them and destroy their confidence too??

its too much for the kids to take on their shoulders at this stage of the season.

We need experience to get us through the rest of the season, Thomson, Heffernan & Stevenson sitting on the bench and we are getting beaten every week?

For the past few seasons its been said " wait till the summer, he will get his own players in" its being said time and again. It wont be long now till we hear the old cry for the managers head.

Just wait and see!!!

All three of the above have been part of numerous dreadful matches too.

Booked4Being-Ugly
15-03-2014, 07:36 PM
What worries me is when the kids do get in and they dont start winning, what happens then?

Will our fickle support turn on them and destroy their confidence too??

its too much for the kids to take on their shoulders at this stage of the season.

We need experience to get us through the rest of the season, Thomson, Heffernan & Stevenson sitting on the bench and we are getting beaten every week?

For the past few seasons its been said " wait till the summer, he will get his own players in" its being said time and again. It wont be long now till we hear the old cry for the managers head.

Just wait and see!!!Absolutely correct, we don't have enough experience or leadership in that team. The likes of Stanton and Harris should be there to supplement an experienced side, we shouldn't be looking at these young guys to dig us out a hole.

Coco Bryce
15-03-2014, 07:38 PM
TB is beginning to get on ma wick with these lame threats... if I was to be given a quid for every player that played today that starts next week... I reckon I'll have 10 or 11 quid.

Going by the players recent performances TB obviously isn't as big and scary as everyone made out him to be. Absolutely disgusted with today's showing.

blackpoolhibs
15-03-2014, 07:38 PM
I think its his accent thats wrong?

weonlywon6-2
15-03-2014, 07:40 PM
Can't argue with that. But sick of seeing good interviews and nothing happening.

"I'd rather go with Kids and lose if we're going to lose"

Well, you said it, Tel. Bin the dross. Get the youngsters in.

I think Terry wants the season to end as well. He will be running out of things to say.

still 100% behind him:aok:

bingo70
15-03-2014, 07:42 PM
How about when the players are completely ignoring what they are being asked to do. What you think then?

Id look at the way i was asking them to do what i want and try and find a better way to get the most out of them.

Telling the media they arent good enough would probably be the worst way to go about that id have thought.

The Green Goblin
15-03-2014, 07:43 PM
Said similar on the pm board, Butcher's biggest mistake has been making it clear he's getting rid of most of the team at the earliest opportunity. It's got to be difficult getting them to perform for you when they know you don't rare them.

I`m not so sure Matty. I think that the one player - Taiwo - who was smart enough to see that as the challenge it was upped his effort and his game and tried to prove Butcher wrong, at least for a few games, which is what I think Butcher was looking for by saying that. If none of the others have enough personal and professional pride in them to do likewise, then they are, rightly, for the chop in any case.

JCHibby
15-03-2014, 07:47 PM
Id look at the way i was asking them to do what i want and try and find a better way to get the most out of them.

Telling the media they arent good enough would probably be the worst way to go about that id have thought.

Can see your point, these players have had far too long taking life for granted, about time they got a public arse kicking IMO.

theonlywayisup
15-03-2014, 07:48 PM
I think he tried the softly softly approach early on. Comments about being surprised about how good the squad was etc.

Comes a point where he just has to be honest. We have a rank rotten squad and would be as well picking 11 names out a hat as there isn't a decent team between the lot of them.

RANK ROTTEN - exactly what I think about my beloved Hibs. They are doing my head in.

silverhibee
15-03-2014, 07:50 PM
I thought the players would perform better away from ER.

IberianHibernian
15-03-2014, 08:07 PM
A few numbers about league matches . Sincť TB took over we have taken 19 points from 17 league matches ( plus Ross C win and Raith defeat in cup ) after taking 15 points from 11 matches under PF and 0 from 6 with Nicholl .

In same period other teams have got following :
Celtic : 48 from 17
Aberdeen : 31 from 15
Motherwell : 29 from 15
ICT : 20 from 15
St J : 17 from 16
Dundee United : 27 from 16
Killie : 21 from 17
Partick Th : 16 from 16
Ross Co : 19 from 17 ( same as us )
St Mirren : 13 from 17
Hearts : 10 from 17

So Hearts and St Mirren worse than us, Ross County the same and St J and Partick Th about the same . Disappointing especially if you add on Raith result . Hate to think what numbers would be if counted from after Derby win .

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 08:13 PM
A few numbers about league matches . Sincť TB took over we have taken 19 points from 17 league matches ( plus Ross C win and Raith defeat in cup ) after taking 15 points from 11 matches under PF and 0 from 6 with Nicholl .

In same period other teams have got following :
Celtic : 48 from 17
Aberdeen : 31 from 15
Motherwell : 29 from 15
ICT : 20 from 15
St J : 17 from 16
Dundee United : 27 from 16
Killie : 21 from 17
Partick Th : 16 from 16
Ross Co : 19 from 17 ( same as us )
St Mirren : 13 from 17
Hearts : 10 from 17

So Hearts and St Mirren worse than us, Ross County the same and St J and Partick Th about the same . Disappointing especially if you add on Raith result . Hate to think what numbers would be if counted from after Derby win .

Thing to keep in mind though is the lift a club has when a manager first arrives. We had that for a few games, so that impact probably accounts for about 9 of the points we've attained out of those 19.

With that instant impact now long gone and us struggling to scrape points together (6 in our last 10 games), it's far more disappointing than it appears.

IberianHibernian
15-03-2014, 08:17 PM
Thing to keep in mind though is the lift a club has when a manager first arrives. We had that for a few games, so that impact probably accounts for about 9 of the points we've attained out of those 19.

With that instant impact now long gone and us struggling to scrape points together (6 in our last 10 games), it's far more disappointing than it appears.Agree especially after a transfer window and having players like Harris and Cairney back after bad injuries . Nicholl should be 0 points from 2 games by the way .

Wakeyhibee
15-03-2014, 08:20 PM
I like what I hear from TB but to be honest we'll not know till some time into next season if he can improve us. And if this season results in many walking away then so be it (I don't blame them, it's Hibs fault as a club over the years), TB managed it on 3-4k fans at ICT so let's see him do it here with what will still be a bigger budget than that. But he does need time to prove what he can do as no-one can tell if it's his tactics or the players that are poor. Only time will tell which is not a good thing considering what we've been through

BOB MARLEYS DUG
15-03-2014, 08:22 PM
Does anyone think he will play a few kids?

Unseen work
15-03-2014, 08:23 PM
Williams
Boateng Forster Hanlon Stevenson

Handling taiwo Stanton watmore

Cummings haynes

Just go for it next week by playing the players confident on the ball and want to play football. Can't say it's too soft a team as were leaking goals for fun anyway

Heisenberg
15-03-2014, 08:24 PM
I hope he actually does it and it's not just an empty threat to try and motivate these so called senior professionals currently in the first team. Only Stanton and Watmore deserve to play next weekend from that game today.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
15-03-2014, 08:26 PM
I hope he actually does it and it's not just an empty threat to try and motivate these so called senior professionals currently in the first team. Only Stanton and Watmore deserve to play next weekend from that game today.

What about Williams?

Heisenberg
15-03-2014, 08:31 PM
What about Williams?

Aye forgot about the goalie. Williams, Stanton and Watmore. The rest can be replaced.

Weir7
15-03-2014, 08:33 PM
I`m not so sure Matty. I think that the one player - Taiwo - who was smart enough to see that as the challenge it was upped his effort and his game and tried to prove Butcher wrong, at least for a few games, which is what I think Butcher was looking for by saying that. If none of the others have enough personal and professional pride in them to do likewise, then they are, rightly, for the chop in any case.

Tawio didn't up his effort. He works just as hard ad he did.

silverhibee
15-03-2014, 08:35 PM
Does anyone think he will play a few kids?

No.

bingo70
15-03-2014, 08:37 PM
No.

Me neither.

Handling will probably start but thats it.

Ronniekirk
15-03-2014, 08:43 PM
TB is beginning to get on ma wick with these lame threats... if I was to be given a quid for every player that played today that starts next week... I reckon I'll have 10 or 11 quid.
When you threaten to do something and don't you loose respect and wonder if there is a bit of that just now .If we have a decent full back then stick them in McGivern is prone to errors and lapses that get us into trouble and Foster was turned inside out at times .Centre Backs at full back isn't working .
Agree we need 11 Stanton's and don't have them and worry is his form will dip at some point as he is still young .
Nelson is not answer for next season but on good contract so we might be stuck with players we would rather move on which means we are looking at two summer Transfer windows to turn this around assuming we bring in the right players first time ,Marsella is going to have to get some key players identified early .

BOB MARLEYS DUG
15-03-2014, 08:43 PM
No.

Same, unfortunately.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
15-03-2014, 08:44 PM
Aye forgot about the goalie. Williams, Stanton and Watmore. The rest can be replaced.

:agree:

The Harp Awakes
15-03-2014, 08:44 PM
Although TB & MM inherited a very average squad of players I really thought they would get more out of them than they have. I think this is because they have made several poor decisions.

Making Liam Craig captain has not worked out and neither has playing him in a deeper midfield role. After week on week of lacklustre performances, leaving out KT from the squad is looking indefensible. Giving Heffernan, arguably the Club's most natural goalscorer, so little game time is perplexing particularly when you consider we have great difficulty scoring goals. The 3 loan signings in the transfer window have failed to improve the squad, albeit Watmore has shown some promise and has been unlucky with his injury.

Having said all that, the time to assess TBs and MMs performance as a management team is next season once they have had the opportunity to get their own squad in and start afresh. Whether we finish in the top 6 or not this season is not important. What is vital is that we stay in the league and today's results mean that is not certain.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
15-03-2014, 08:49 PM
What was ICT team like when TB first took charge?

calmac12000
15-03-2014, 09:03 PM
The Hibs got exactly what they deserved from today's game, had we got anything it would've been grand larceny for the second time at Firhill this season. To tell the truth apart from one or two players, we are rank rotten!

Jonnyboy
15-03-2014, 09:04 PM
What about Williams?

Badly at fault for the second goal IMO. Bread and butter cross into the six yard box and Ben had his evo stick studs in as he stayed on his line when he could easily come and gathered the ball

Hedlund12
15-03-2014, 09:15 PM
What about Williams?

I'd replace Williams with Murdoch! Nothing to loose. 😏

greenlex
15-03-2014, 09:15 PM
The Hibs got exactly what they deserved from today's game, had we got anything it would've been grand larceny for the second time at Firhill this season. To tell the truth apart from one or two players, we are rank rotten! Harsh. Don't think there was a huge gulf between the two sides to be honest. Our problem is soft at the back and pish up front. Put it this way. That performance was an improvement on the last visit there and we won that game!!!

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 09:23 PM
Harsh. Don't think there was a huge gulf between the two sides to be honest. Our problem is soft at the back and pish up front. Put it this way. That performance was an improvement on the last visit there and we won that game!!!

Yep, we managed 2 shots on target this time as opposed to 1. If only we had kept out the 9 shots on target that Parick Thistle had, we would have won. Such a close game.

Alfred E Newman
15-03-2014, 09:24 PM
Harsh. Don't think there was a huge gulf between the two sides to be honest. Our problem is soft at the back and pish up front. Put it this way. That performance was an improvement on the last visit there and we won that game!!!

You forgot to mention the powder puff and pedestrian mid field Lex!

down-the-slope
15-03-2014, 09:24 PM
Although TB & MM inherited a very average squad of players I really thought they would get more out of them than they have. I think this is because they have made several poor decisions.

Making Liam Craig captain has not worked out and neither has playing him in a deeper midfield role. After week on week of lacklustre performances, leaving out KT from the squad is looking indefensible. Giving Heffernan, arguably the Club's most natural goalscorer, so little game time is perplexing particularly when you consider we have great difficulty scoring goals. The 3 loan signings in the transfer window have failed to improve the squad, albeit Watmore has shown some promise and has been unlucky with his injury.

Having said all that, the time to assess TBs and MMs performance as a management team is next season once they have had the opportunity to get their own squad in and start afresh. Whether we finish in the top 6 or not this season is not important. What is vital is that we stay in the league and today's results mean that is not certain.

MM said only this week that there was nothing wrong with fitness and technical ability.....so he does not agree with you.....making it all the more perplexing...

stevejordan
15-03-2014, 09:36 PM
MM said only this week that there was nothing wrong with fitness and technical ability.....so he does not agree with you.....making it all the more perplexing...

Terry reminds me off Duffy Jim he talked the talk but failed to walk the walk Petrie appointed him as he did Paddy ( who was a very nice man ) paddy was a hell of a lot better than Colin but i fear that terry is worse than Duffy. i prey i am wrong we need to regroup for next season.

greenlex
15-03-2014, 09:42 PM
You forgot to mention the powder puff and pedestrian mid field Lex! The whole team is pedestrian!!! take two or three touches when one will do. Take one when a first time ball is the play.

greenlex
15-03-2014, 09:44 PM
Yep, we managed 2 shots on target this time as opposed to 1. If only we had kept out the 9 shots on target that Parick Thistle had, we would have won. Such a close game. Sarcasm eh? I get it. :aok: I just checked the stats and they bear out exactly what I was saying. 50% possession 10 shots to their 13. The fact they had more on target is their defence blocked more for corners. The game was close enough. Sucker punch for their third too.

Jonnyboy
15-03-2014, 09:51 PM
Yep, we managed 2 shots on target this time as opposed to 1. If only we had kept out the 9 shots on target that Parick Thistle had, we would have won. Such a close game.

Serious and, I think, relevant question. Did you go to the game today?

Iggy Pope
15-03-2014, 09:53 PM
Serious and, I think, relevant question. Did you go to the game today?

Been dying to ask him that question but I never went either!

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 09:56 PM
Sarcasm eh? I get it. :aok: I just checked the stats and they bear out exactly what I was saying. 50% possession 10 shots to their 13. The fact they had more on target is their defence blocked more for corners. The game was close enough. Sucker punch for their third too.

Maybe you don't know. But blocking shots is an essencial part of the game. It can be the difference between a winning side and a losing side.

We didn't do much right today and shot blocking was just another thing we didn't get right. Partick were more than worthy of their win.

You may think it was "close enough". But it certainly wasn't "close enough" for us to get anything from the game.

Jonnyboy
15-03-2014, 09:59 PM
Been dying to ask him that question but I never went either!

I'm not trying to bait him! I just have a follow up comment which depends on his attendance or not

ronaldo7
15-03-2014, 10:00 PM
I'd replace Williams with Murdoch! Nothing to loose. 

Only another 3 goals:wink:

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 10:01 PM
Serious and, I think, relevant question. Did you go to the game today?

No I wasn't.

But I suppose the BBC stats were lying, with them having such a big agenda against us?

greenlex
15-03-2014, 10:02 PM
Maybe you don't know. But blocking shots is an essencial part of the game. It can be the difference between a winning side and a losing side.

We didn't do much right today and shot blocking was just another thing we didn't get right. Partick were more than worthy of their win.

You may think it was "close enough". But it certainly wasn't "close enough" for us to get anything from the game.Calmac's post on the subject was poor and IMO incorrect. This one isn't really much better to be honest.

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 10:05 PM
Calmac's post on the subject was poor and IMO incorrect. This one isn't really much better to be honest.

Really, so are you saying that i'm incorrect and that blocking shots has no influence on a result at all? :rolleyes:

I can see you're going nowhere with this. So i'm not going to waste another moment on the subject.

Jonnyboy
15-03-2014, 10:06 PM
No I wasn't.

But I suppose the BBC stats were lying, with them having such a big agenda against us?

Now now no need to take that tone! My point is that the BBC tell nothing but a statistical analysis of how many whatevers. They're worth noting but nothing more than that. Earlier you posted about defenders throwing themselves in front of shots and they did but in doing so they denied the BBC the opportunity to count it as a shot on target. Shoot on target at goal, keeper saves, tick. Shoot on target, defender blocks, no tick.

That's why I asked if you were there, you'd have seen that for yourself :wink:

greenlex
15-03-2014, 10:10 PM
Really, so are you saying that i'm incorrect and that blocking shots has no influence on a result at all? :rolleyes:

I can see you're going nowhere with this. So i'm not going to waste another moment on the subject. I think you will find I am saying there was little between the teams. Calmac said we deserved absolutely zip from the game and it would have been Grand Larceny for the second time this season. I replied I thought it was harsh. You took the Stats and fitted them to back up Calmacs view of things. Plainly the blocked shots did have an influence on the result. It did not show a huge gulf between the teams. If you want to run off now Im fine with that. :rolleyes:

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 10:11 PM
Now now no need to take that tone! My point is that the BBC tell nothing but a statistical analysis of how many whatevers. They're worth noting but nothing more than that. Earlier you posted about defenders throwing themselves in front of shots and they did but in doing so they denied the BBC the opportunity to count it as a shot on target. Shoot on target at goal, keeper saves, tick. Shoot on target, defender blocks, no tick.

That's why I asked if you were there, you'd have seen that for yourself :wink:

My point is, you need to have shots on target to win games and we've been lacking in that department for quite some time.

I would expect the opposition to throw themselves at shots to take the pressure of their goalkeeper. Unfortunately, Partick Thistle did this better than we did today and the shots on target ratio backs this up.

We did not do enough to take anything from the game today, because we allowed Partick Thistle to put more pressure on our goalkeeper than they allowed us to put on theres.

I don't see whats so hard to understand about this.

Jonnyboy
15-03-2014, 10:14 PM
My point is, you need to have shots on target to win games and we've been lacking in that department for quite some time.

I would expect the opposition to throw themselves at shots to take the pressure of their goalkeeper. Unfortunately, Partick Thistle did this better than we did today and the shots on target ratio backs this up.

We did not do enough to take anything from the game today, because we allowed Partick Thistle to put more pressure on our goalkeeper than they allowed us to put on theres.

I don't see whats so hard to understand about this.

I don't disagree entirely with that but it's not as bad as you are making out. Your argument is based solely on the BBC stats.

Hibercelona
15-03-2014, 10:21 PM
I don't disagree entirely with that but it's not as bad as you are making out. Your argument is based solely on the BBC stats.

Correct. But it still doesn't take away from the fact that you need shots on target to win games. :wink:

So what happened throughout the 90 minutes is irrelevant. If you conceed more goals that the shots you have on target, then there's no way you can take anything from the game, regardless of how everything else in the game plays out. :greengrin

Jonnyboy
15-03-2014, 10:24 PM
Correct. But it still doesn't take away from the fact that you need shots on target to win games. :wink:

So what happened throughout the 90 minutes is irrelevant. If you conceed more goals that the shots you have on target, then there's no way you can take anything from the game, regardless of how everything else in the game plays out. :greengrin

We had more shots on target than the two reported by the BBC. That's my point. You can't analyse the game on those stats alone!

silverhibee
15-03-2014, 10:55 PM
We had more shots on target than the two reported by the BBC. That's my point. You can't analyse the game on those stats alone!

My only stat i took from today's game is Hibs are pish.

DD had more to say than me, :greengrin

Jonnyboy
15-03-2014, 10:58 PM
My only stat i took from today's game is Hibs are pish.

DD had more to say than me, :greengrin

Aye but most of it would be asterisks :greengrin

nic81
15-03-2014, 11:11 PM
People are quick to forget that ICT went down with Tel before coming back up and playing a much better standard of football than us and it took him nearly four years to do this, no wonder we get slagged rank rotten by the mutants across the way, just really who do the hibs fans think we are, Barcelona i think not, maybe we need to go down with the **** and start again because Tel is not going to be able to turn this around anytime soon but sections of our wonderful support are so quick to get on players and managers backs that they don't get enough time, personally i would like to see him have 2 full seasons to try and get things right, 99 % of the team we have now needs to be emptied but they are not going to be replaced overnight by Barca esq superstars

steakbake
15-03-2014, 11:37 PM
People are quick to forget that ICT went down with Tel before coming back up and playing a much better standard of football than us and it took him nearly four years to do this, no wonder we get slagged rank rotten by the mutants across the way, just really who do the hibs fans think we are, Barcelona i think not, maybe we need to go down with the **** and start again because Tel is not going to be able to turn this around anytime soon but sections of our wonderful support are so quick to get on players and managers backs that they don't get enough time, personally i would like to see him have 2 full seasons to try and get things right, 99 % of the team we have now needs to be emptied but they are not going to be replaced overnight by Barca esq superstars

An interesting point.

There's been a couple years where we've been close and the problems were plain for all to see. Perhaps dropping down gives the manager an opportunity to really carry out the wholesale change that's needed to get back up quickly.

nic81
15-03-2014, 11:47 PM
An interesting point.

There's been a couple years where we've been close and the problems were plain for all to see. Perhaps dropping down gives the manager an opportunity to really carry out the wholesale change that's needed to get back up quickly.

And the reason he was able to do that was no pressure from the board or the fans, yes we are a bigger club with a bigger everything but one thing ICT had that is bigger than us and one thing that most teams have at the moment that is bigger than us is that the club had a heart, we have been on life support for a long time

Greenblood70
16-03-2014, 12:13 AM
Seems to me there is a huge disconnect between the current first team squad and the management. The team are not playing for the manager IMO and we won't get shot of the whole squad in the close season so where does that leave us?

NadeAteMyLunch!
16-03-2014, 02:16 AM
Talking about shots on goal, remember when TB first arrived...we were averaging about 20 shots on goal for a few weeks. Back to our old ways since

California-Hibs
16-03-2014, 02:36 AM
Talking about shots on goal, remember when TB first arrived...we were averaging about 20 shots on goal for a few weeks. Back to our old ways since

This is because effort has went down because a lot of them know Butcher is getting rid of them in the summer. We're in a strange situation, and a potentially dangerous one. We NEED to stay in the SPL and just get to that final game of the season safe.

I'm still predicting that come the start of next season we will be looking back at this one and laugh, as our football between then and right will be night and day. There's going to be a massive squad change this summer, we'll look so very different next season. I trust Butcher.

Niffy
16-03-2014, 06:10 AM
Budget constraints and reputation will stop all first choice signings coming to Hibs.

GreenLake
16-03-2014, 06:31 AM
MM said only this week that there was nothing wrong with fitness and technical ability.....so he does not agree with you.....making it all the more perplexing...

The players fail to trap a ball to feet under the slightest pressure. That is a technical ability which seems to be severely lacking. The one touch training eliminates any requirement to trap a ball under control.



People are quick to forget that ICT went down with Tel before coming back up and playing a much better standard of football than us and it took him nearly four years to do this, no wonder we get slagged rank rotten by the mutants across the way, just really who do the hibs fans think we are, Barcelona i think not, maybe we need to go down with the **** and start again because Tel is not going to be able to turn this around anytime soon but sections of our wonderful support are so quick to get on players and managers backs that they don't get enough time, personally i would like to see him have 2 full seasons to try and get things right, 99 % of the team we have now needs to be emptied but they are not going to be replaced overnight by Barca esq superstars

This squad is bad but not for the lack of a lot of different players. It lacks two exceptional players who would transform the whole team by lifting it up by the bootstraps. These are the players we need to change things in the summer. I would rather we sunk all our cash into two exceptional players than a shower of similar ones to what we have. If you put Leigh Griffiths and Scott Brown in our team we would finish second every year.

Alfred E Newman
16-03-2014, 07:37 AM
People are quick to forget that ICT went down with Tel before coming back up and playing a much better standard of football than us and it took him nearly four years to do this, no wonder we get slagged rank rotten by the mutants across the way, just really who do the hibs fans think we are, Barcelona i think not, maybe we need to go down with the **** and start again because Tel is not going to be able to turn this around anytime soon but sections of our wonderful support are so quick to get on players and managers backs that they don't get enough time, personally i would like to see him have 2 full seasons to try and get things right, 99 % of the team we have now needs to be emptied but they are not going to be replaced overnight by Barca esq superstars

So you are suggesting we need to go down to improve?
We have been struggling in the bottom six for the last few years like a ship without a rudder ,ample opportunity for any decent manager to turn things round.At my age another 4 years waiting for a turn around doesn't bear thinking about.
Aberdeen seem to have managed it without relegation , there again they did not have to suffer these terrible fans that follow the Hibs.

Beefster
16-03-2014, 07:58 AM
I personally dont think blaming the players after every defeat and saying theyre not good enough is good man management. How can he get inside their head and install confidence before tge next game?

Hes given up on this season and thats not good enough imo.

They've got an opportunity to prove him wrong every week. Butcher's man-management isn't the problem.

green day
16-03-2014, 08:10 AM
They've got an opportunity to prove him wrong every week. Butcher's man-management isn't the problem.

Correctamundo

We have had several years of rank rotten results and dire fitba (not forgetting an occasional run to a cup final disappointment).

While we can - and do - question coaches abilities, these players are doing something the punters would love to do and frankly should be out there doing it - without needing Terry or Pat or Colin or Mixu to tell them exactly what is required - its a simple game.

When I played, if I was asked to change from right back to centre half for a game I just got on with it.

Where I do criticise our coaches over the last few years is recruiting too many players who think they have made it - lacking the hunger and mental strength required to win things.

TB et al have the summer to change that and get in a few real winners and on field captains.

steviehibsleith
16-03-2014, 09:57 AM
This squad is bad but not for the lack of a lot of different players. It lacks two exceptional players who would transform the whole team by lifting it up by the bootstraps. These are the players we need to change things in the summer. I would rather we sunk all our cash into two exceptional players than a shower of similar ones to what we have. If you put Leigh Griffiths and Scott Brown in our team we would finish second every year.[/QUOTE]
Rubbish our defence is terrible even with Griff an Brown in the team we would leak goals for fun.

Eyrie
16-03-2014, 11:47 AM
Budget constraints and reputation will stop all first choice signings coming to Hibs.

Our player budget is larger than anyone in Scotland with the obvious exceptions of Septic and Sevco Huns. Even Aberdeen's will not be significantly different.

So the issue is not the budget constraint, but the effective use of the budget. Previous managers have let us down badly there but each of them has at least been given the backing of the board so there is no reason to expect this to change under Butcher.

Equally Butcher came with a good reputation, which should help attract players. He's now finding out who exactly has the desire to be here next season and who he should look to move on.

Nailrod
16-03-2014, 03:07 PM
This is because effort has went down because a lot of them know Butcher is getting rid of them in the summer. There's something wrong with your logic here CH. If the team had continued to hammer in 20 or so attempts on goal every week there wouldn't be any need for Butcher to be getting rid of them in the summer.
There's going to be a massive squad change this summer, we'll look so very different next season.I'm praying this doesn't happen because we've been singing this mantra every year (and sometimes twice a year) for the last seven years and it just hasn't worked.

It can't work. We have a limited budget. If we replace half of or nearly all of our squad, then all we can afford to do is bring in another bunch of players who are fundamentally no different from the ones we're getting rid of. There isn't some untapped well of really brilliant players out there who don't cost anything, and who nobody else has spotted, and who are kicking their heels and saying to themselves "If only Terry would ask me to sign up with Hibs..."

What we're crying out for is a couple of players of genuine quality. Guys who can actually make a difference out on the field. Above all a leader, and a playmaker. Sauzee and Latapy are the perfect example. They made the guys around them - guys like Zitelli and O'Neill - look like better players. They didn't always perform - no player can do it every single week - but when they clicked they were different class.

We haven't had a leader since Jones, and we haven't had a playmaker since Zoomer - a guy who was different class. At his best, he was just a better player than anybody else on the park could ever hope to be.

Let's screw the nut on this "Chuck out the whole squad and bring in a whole new one". It never works. It can't work. Let's try and do something different, and a bit more intelligent, this time.

green day
16-03-2014, 03:34 PM
Our player budget is larger than anyone in Scotland with the obvious exceptions of Septic and Sevco Huns. Even Aberdeen's will not be significantly different.

Nah, the dons bringing Robson, Flood, Rooney, Haynes on the same money we offer - not for me.

Dons are, to a smaller extent, doing a "jambos". They are not buying/paying this squad with those crowds.

HUTCHYHIBBY
16-03-2014, 03:39 PM
Did any of the players have to walk home last night?

offshorehibby
16-03-2014, 04:21 PM
There's something wrong with your logic here CH. If the team had continued to hammer in 20 or so attempts on goal every week there wouldn't be any need for Butcher to be getting rid of them in the summer. I'm praying this doesn't happen because we've been singing this mantra every year (and sometimes twice a year) for the last seven years and it just hasn't worked.

It can't work. We have a limited budget. If we replace half of or nearly all of our squad, then all we can afford to do is bring in another bunch of players who are fundamentally no different from the ones we're getting rid of. There isn't some untapped well of really brilliant players out there who don't cost anything, and who nobody else has spotted, and who are kicking their heels and saying to themselves "If only Terry would ask me to sign up with Hibs..."

What we're crying out for is a couple of players of genuine quality. Guys who can actually make a difference out on the field. Above all a leader, and a playmaker. Sauzee and Latapy are the perfect example. They made the guys around them - guys like Zitelli and O'Neill - look like better players. They didn't always perform - no player can do it every single week - but when they clicked they were different class.

We haven't had a leader since Jones, and we haven't had a playmaker since Zoomer - a guy who was different class. At his best, he was just a better player than anybody else on the park could ever hope to be.

Let's screw the nut on this "Chuck out the whole squad and bring in a whole new one". It never works. It can't work. Let's try and do something different, and a bit more intelligent, this time.

Why can't it work, we've had years of signing duds. We've brought in a supposedly decent management team who seem to have an eye for a player.
Most teams can bring in several players and hit the ground running, TB at Inverness has shown this most seasons.

so you'd rather keep the dross we have.

Nailrod
17-03-2014, 12:24 PM
Why can't it work, we've had years of signing duds. We've brought in a supposedly decent management team who seem to have an eye for a player.
Most teams can bring in several players and hit the ground running, TB at Inverness has shown this most seasons.

so you'd rather keep the dross we have.It can't work for the following reasons:

1. If we punt 6, 7, or 8 players and bring in another 6, 7, or 8 players to replace them then our budget is going to be spread across the same number of players, so we'll be paying them the same as we currently pay them - or probably a bit less, given that our revenues will have taken at least two hits this year.

2. Therefore this 'strategy' is predicated on the notion that there are 6, 7, or 8 players out there who are far better than what we already have, who are earning the same or even less than what we already have, and who have somehow escaped the attention of everybody on the planet except Terry. We'll be shopping in the same market, with the same (or possibly slightly less) money. Why on earth are we going to suddenly discover a product that's significantly better than what we've got?

3. Terry's just a manager. He's not some kind of living Godhead. When are Hibs supporters going to abandon this 'messiah complex', where every new manager that comes in is the real deal compared with all his predecessors, who were all false prophets, and "just as soon as he's chucked out all the incumbents and brought in 'his own players' our fortunes are going to be transformed..."

Fenlon brought in nearly 30 players in less than two years, and left us no better off than when he started. How many successive failures is it going to take before we accept that this is a failed strategy, and try something different?

greenpaper55
17-03-2014, 12:34 PM
It can't work for the following reasons:

1. If we punt 6, 7, or 8 players and bring in another 6, 7, or 8 players to replace them then our budget is going to be spread across the same number of players, so we'll be paying them the same as we currently pay them - or probably a bit less, given that our revenues will have taken at least two hits this year.

2. Therefore this 'strategy' is predicated on the notion that there are 6, 7, or 8 players out there who are far better than what we already have, who are earning the same or even less than what we already have, and who have somehow escaped the attention of everybody on the planet except Terry. We'll be shopping in the same market, with the same (or possibly slightly less) money. Why on earth are we going to suddenly discover a product that's significantly better than what we've got?

3. Terry's just a manager. He's not some kind of living Godhead. When are Hibs supporters going to abandon this 'messiah complex', where every new manager that comes in is the real deal compared with all his predecessors, who were all false prophets, and "just as soon as he's chucked out all the incumbents and brought in 'his own players' our fortunes are going to be transformed..."

Fenlon brought in nearly 30 players in less than two years, and left us no better off than when he started. How many successive failures is it going to take before we accept that this is a failed strategy, and try something different?

Spot on there, the only strategy i see it is if we spend a bit more than other clubs on a few players with a wee bit class-wherever they are or bring through another golden generation. What most fans are struggling with is the fact that with our resources we are no better than clubs with a smaller fan base.

Nailrod
17-03-2014, 12:46 PM
Spot on there, the only strategy i see it is if we spend a bit more than other clubs on a few players with a wee bit class-wherever they are or bring through another golden generation. What most fans are struggling with is the fact that with our resources we are no better than clubs with a smaller fan base.Seems like a no-brainer to me.

But I'm expecting to see another massive clearout this summer, followed by another mass influx of journeymen...

Speedway
17-03-2014, 04:40 PM
'The goal just before half-time lifted them, but we were thinking Ďletís have a goí just as when we were 2-1 down to Motherwell the other week and came back strong. Then we lose a goal from a free-kick. I asked the players whose turn it is to throw one in next week. Itís as if they are drawing straws before games and whoever gets the short one gives the goal away. Thatís what it looks like to me.'

truehibernian
17-03-2014, 04:53 PM
'The goal just before half-time lifted them, but we were thinking Ďletís have a goí just as when we were 2-1 down to Motherwell the other week and came back strong. Then we lose a goal from a free-kick. I asked the players whose turn it is to throw one in next week. Itís as if they are drawing straws before games and whoever gets the short one gives the goal away. Thatís what it looks like to me.'

Ryan seems to be pulling the short straw every game then. That lad needs to go on the same diet as Jordon Forster and get some bravery inside him. Cowardly defender when it comes to putting his head or foot where it hurts. He's worth a goal to the opposition, I'd totally agree with Tel.

stevejordan
17-03-2014, 05:32 PM
It can't work for the following reasons:

1. If we punt 6, 7, or 8 players and bring in another 6, 7, or 8 players to replace them then our budget is going to be spread across the same number of players, so we'll be paying them the same as we currently pay them - or probably a bit less, given that our revenues will have taken at least two hits this year.

2. Therefore this 'strategy' is predicated on the notion that there are 6, 7, or 8 players out there who are far better than what we already have, who are earning the same or even less than what we already have, and who have somehow escaped the attention of everybody on the planet except Terry. We'll be shopping in the same market, with the same (or possibly slightly less) money. Why on earth are we going to suddenly discover a product that's significantly better than what we've got?

3. Terry's just a manager. He's not some kind of living Godhead. When are Hibs supporters going to abandon this 'messiah complex', where every new manager that comes in is the real deal compared with all his predecessors, who were all false prophets, and "just as soon as he's chucked out all the incumbents and brought in 'his own players' our fortunes are going to be transformed..."

Fenlon brought in nearly 30 players in less than two years, and left us no better off than when he started. How many successive failures is it going to take before we accept that this is a failed strategy, and try something different?

Terry will have identified the Duds that Paddy left him that will be emptied in the Summer and my guess is more than 8 will get culled and several new players will come in i would think they have already been identified and the list made up by Terry will be handed to Petrie to deliver.

Franck Stanton
17-03-2014, 07:06 PM
Terry will have identified the Duds that Paddy left him that will be emptied in the Summer and my guess is more than 8 will get culled and several new players will come in i would think they have already been identified and the list made up by Terry will be handed to Petrie to deliver.

Will depend on how many are "first-choice" players and how many are 2nd or even 3rd.

lord bunberry
17-03-2014, 07:10 PM
Seems like a no-brainer to me.

But I'm expecting to see another massive clearout this summer, followed by another mass influx of journeymen...

What if he gets rid of 8 players but only brings in 4 better quality replacements. We don't need a whole new team and we will never have 11 quality players in our starting line up. Quality rather than quantity is the way forward, using the players already here and bringing through the youngsters.

Ronniekirk
17-03-2014, 07:42 PM
What if he gets rid of 8 players but only brings in 4 better quality replacements. We don't need a whole new team and we will never have 11 quality players in our starting line up. Quality rather than quantity is the way forward, using the players already here and bringing through the youngsters.
I would normally agree but we will need a goalkeeper as Williams is off ski.McGivern has had his chance so he needs dropped even if we can't get rid of him so we need a left back .Foster needs to move to centre Half so we need a right back as he was also taken to cleaners by thistle . we can't build from the back if Nelson is there .We need a Captain who can influence the team and drive them forward .If we can't find a place for Craig to regain his scoring form we need another creative scoring midfielder .We need two strikers that can score on a regular basis If Harris doesn't recapture form and Watmore doesn't stay we need wide players with pace that can get to bye line and deliver Are we sure we just need three or four quality players . To get us in top four ?

talcy
17-03-2014, 07:57 PM
'The goal just before half-time lifted them, but we were thinking Ďletís have a goí just as when we were 2-1 down to Motherwell the other week and came back strong. Then we lose a goal from a free-kick. I asked the players whose turn it is to throw one in next week. Itís as if they are drawing straws before games and whoever gets the short one gives the goal away. Thatís what it looks like to me.'

You now what it looks like to me Terry? It looks like something happened around about the Dundee Utd 2-2 game that has cost you and Mo a lot in terms of the player's trust and belief, which has contributed to a horrendous run of form and total evaporation of all the early promising signs under your stewardship. Nobody knows the full picture of what goes on behind closed doors obviously, but the more you open your mouth and slate the players that you need to get you through the end of this season, whilst issuing threats about blooding youngsters (when we could conceivably be dragged into a relegation dogfight!!), the more I think that's how you see things to. For a great leader, wanting people to follow you into battle, the way you've thrown other people under a bus to divert attention from yourself and MM has got alarm bells ringing with me and it's certainly not leadership in my book.

Your coaching, your preparation, your training, your team selection, your dressing room, your formation, your tactics. These are all significant factors. Absolutely, players have limitations. Absolutely, players have good and bad attitudes. Absolutely, players switch off and make mistakes. Mistakes you could never have anticipated. But YOU make mistakes too TB and MM. What did you do on Saturday to counter the Thistle players dropping inbetween the banks of 4 so effectively against us? How on earth did Collins stay on that pitch so long? Why is there no alternative to knocking it long down channels or shelling diagonal balls from the back down the channels as soon as we go a goal behind? No sign of you being so willing to discuss any of that or shoulder any responsibility. But I don't believe I've seen any players publicly outing you or apologising on your behalf or calling your efforts "dishonest" in a way to deflect from themselves or poor results.

Just like great players have to perform under pressure, so do great managers. As soon as the pressure started to ratchet up, players have been in and out of favour at the drop of a hat, the captaincy's been getting dished out like a gold star in a primary school class and all talk of being a motivational messiah getting inside player's heads has been dropped for "just you wait until we get our kind of players in" chat. It smacks of a breakdown between the coaching staff and playing staff, leading to straw clutching and early Teflon coat application by said coaching staff to me, but then I'm a grumpy old git that expects people to back up their words with actions and so far the jury is massively out on TB and MM. At the very least it was surely realistic to expect them to make our limited squad more organised, more competitive and secure SPFL status reasonably comfortably? On current showing, they might achieve this or they might get sucked right into the thick of the fight to avoid that play-off spot. Unbelievably bad timing for all of this to be happening right now, when there's no Cup revenues to look forward to and we're in the midst of ST renewal time. The joys of following Hibs I suppose.

weonlywon6-2
17-03-2014, 08:56 PM
It can't work for the following reasons:

1. If we punt 6, 7, or 8 players and bring in another 6, 7, or 8 players to replace them then our budget is going to be spread across the same number of players, so we'll be paying them the same as we currently pay them - or probably a bit less, given that our revenues will have taken at least two hits this year.

2. Therefore this 'strategy' is predicated on the notion that there are 6, 7, or 8 players out there who are far better than what we already have, who are earning the same or even less than what we already have, and who have somehow escaped the attention of everybody on the planet except Terry. We'll be shopping in the same market, with the same (or possibly slightly less) money. Why on earth are we going to suddenly discover a product that's significantly better than what we've got?

3. Terry's just a manager. He's not some kind of living Godhead. When are Hibs supporters going to abandon this 'messiah complex', where every new manager that comes in is the real deal compared with all his predecessors, who were all false prophets, and "just as soon as he's chucked out all the incumbents and brought in 'his own players' our fortunes are going to be transformed..."

Fenlon brought in nearly 30 players in less than two years, and left us no better off than when he started. How many successive failures is it going to take before we accept that this is a failed strategy, and try something different?


inverness,motherwell,dundee utd,st johnstone are better than us and have smaller wage bills and fan bases,if they can do it so can we.Butcher needs time to put his own players on the park

matty_f
17-03-2014, 09:08 PM
It can't work for the following reasons:

1. If we punt 6, 7, or 8 players and bring in another 6, 7, or 8 players to replace them then our budget is going to be spread across the same number of players, so we'll be paying them the same as we currently pay them - or probably a bit less, given that our revenues will have taken at least two hits this year.

2. Therefore this 'strategy' is predicated on the notion that there are 6, 7, or 8 players out there who are far better than what we already have, who are earning the same or even less than what we already have, and who have somehow escaped the attention of everybody on the planet except Terry. We'll be shopping in the same market, with the same (or possibly slightly less) money. Why on earth are we going to suddenly discover a product that's significantly better than what we've got?

3. Terry's just a manager. He's not some kind of living Godhead. When are Hibs supporters going to abandon this 'messiah complex', where every new manager that comes in is the real deal compared with all his predecessors, who were all false prophets, and "just as soon as he's chucked out all the incumbents and brought in 'his own players' our fortunes are going to be transformed..."

Fenlon brought in nearly 30 players in less than two years, and left us no better off than when he started. How many successive failures is it going to take before we accept that this is a failed strategy, and try something different?
The one significant counter to that is that Butcher and his backroom team brought together an ict team far superior to our current side on a fraction of the cost. He has shown that he can cobble together a good side without shelling out lots of money. I think the trick is not in finding 7 or 8 players better than the players they are replacing but in bringing in players that makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

The Green Goblin
18-03-2014, 01:28 AM
You now what it looks like to me Terry? It looks like something happened around about the Dundee Utd 2-2 game that has cost you and Mo a lot in terms of the player's trust and belief, which has contributed to a horrendous run of form and total evaporation of all the early promising signs under your stewardship. Nobody knows the full picture of what goes on behind closed doors obviously, but the more you open your mouth and slate the players that you need to get you through the end of this season, whilst issuing threats about blooding youngsters (when we could conceivably be dragged into a relegation dogfight!!), the more I think that's how you see things to. For a great leader, wanting people to follow you into battle, the way you've thrown other people under a bus to divert attention from yourself and MM has got alarm bells ringing with me and it's certainly not leadership in my book.

Your coaching, your preparation, your training, your team selection, your dressing room, your formation, your tactics. These are all significant factors. Absolutely, players have limitations. Absolutely, players have good and bad attitudes. Absolutely, players switch off and make mistakes. Mistakes you could never have anticipated. But YOU make mistakes too TB and MM. What did you do on Saturday to counter the Thistle players dropping inbetween the banks of 4 so effectively against us? How on earth did Collins stay on that pitch so long? Why is there no alternative to knocking it long down channels or shelling diagonal balls from the back down the channels as soon as we go a goal behind? No sign of you being so willing to discuss any of that or shoulder any responsibility. But I don't believe I've seen any players publicly outing you or apologising on your behalf or calling your efforts "dishonest" in a way to deflect from themselves or poor results.

Just like great players have to perform under pressure, so do great managers. As soon as the pressure started to ratchet up, players have been in and out of favour at the drop of a hat, the captaincy's been getting dished out like a gold star in a primary school class and all talk of being a motivational messiah getting inside player's heads has been dropped for "just you wait until we get our kind of players in" chat. It smacks of a breakdown between the coaching staff and playing staff, leading to straw clutching and early Teflon coat application by said coaching staff to me, but then I'm a grumpy old git that expects people to back up their words with actions and so far the jury is massively out on TB and MM. At the very least it was surely realistic to expect them to make our limited squad more organised, more competitive and secure SPFL status reasonably comfortably? On current showing, they might achieve this or they might get sucked right into the thick of the fight to avoid that play-off spot. Unbelievably bad timing for all of this to be happening right now, when there's no Cup revenues to look forward to and we're in the midst of ST renewal time. The joys of following Hibs I suppose.


The weight currently sitting on the shoulders of TB and MM is that of SEVEN years of failure at the club. A failure by a series of managers to develop the team by, as others on here have said, signing a big load of journeymen and average players in a roundabout that has left us with no heart, no spirit and no concept of our own identity as a team. TB and MM have been in the door for 5 months. But you go ahead and fire in and put it all on them for not turning seven years of complete failure around quickly enough for your liking. Do you really think that anyone alive could turn the mess Hibs are in around in a few months?

When Butcher arrived, he said it would take around 18 months to get things back on track. Looking at the current state of the club and team he inherited, I would say he was being optimistic, but as a fan, at least I`m prepared to at least give him the time he needs. Or should we sack him too around Christmas and go on sticking with what we know best; how to fail on the park by sacrificing stability again and again and again, especially now that we finally seem to have a manager who has actually succeeded previously and has a clear idea of all the long term dirty work that needs to be done?

jakeshibs
18-03-2014, 01:38 AM
The weight currently sitting on the shoulders of TB and MM is that of SEVEN years of failure at the club. A failure by a series of managers to develop the team by, as others on here have said, signing a big load of journeymen and average players in a roundabout that has left us with no heart, no spirit and no concept of our own identity as a team. TB and MM have been in the door for 5 months. But you go ahead and fire in and put it all on them for not turning seven years of complete failure around quickly enough for your liking. Do you really think that anyone alive could turn the mess Hibs are in around in a few months?

When Butcher arrived, he said it would take around 18 months to get things back on track. Looking at the current state of the club and team he inherited, I would say he was being optimistic, but as a fan, at least I`m prepared to at least give him the time he needs. Or should we sack him too around Christmas and go on sticking with what we know best; how to fail on the park by sacrificing stability again and again and again, especially now that we finally seem to have a manager who has actually succeeded previously and has a clear idea of all the long term dirty work that needs to be done?

I am with you and will give TB and MM the time to get it right! I believe they are the right team to take us forward...

Nailrod
18-03-2014, 05:39 AM
I would normally agree but we will need a goalkeeper as Williams is off ski.McGivern has had his chance so he needs dropped even if we can't get rid of him so we need a left back .Foster needs to move to centre Half so we need a right back as he was also taken to cleaners by thistle . we can't build from the back if Nelson is there .We need a Captain who can influence the team and drive them forward .If we can't find a place for Craig to regain his scoring form we need another creative scoring midfielder .We need two strikers that can score on a regular basis If Harris doesn't recapture form and Watmore doesn't stay we need wide players with pace that can get to bye line and deliver Are we sure we just need three or four quality players . To get us in top four ?The same defenders that we currently have went on a good run of games where nobody could score against us just around the turn of the year. I don't know what it was that went so badly wrong in the last ten minutes of the DU game, but it seemed to knock all the stuffing out of us, and we've never recovered. But if these players could do it before they can do it again.

The one thing we can be certain of is that if we go in for a wholesale squad turnaround yet again we just won't get any individuals in of real quality, because we won't be able to afford them. And we'll be back to square one.

Ronniekirk
18-03-2014, 08:56 AM
The same defenders that we currently have went on a good run of games where nobody could score against us just around the turn of the year. I don't know what it was that went so badly wrong in the last ten minutes of the DU game, but it seemed to knock all the stuffing out of us, and we've never recovered. But if these players could do it before they can do it again.

The one thing we can be certain of is that if we go in for a wholesale squad turnaround yet again we just won't get any individuals in of real quality, because we won't be able to afford them. And we'll be back to square one.
Yep it's baffling but for sure they don't even look capable of finding that form now as we are back leaking goals Maybe we should of signed Radweld.I have no idea what's going on and T B looks bereft of ideas to stop the rot .ICT in the final must be eating away at him privately and he is also now frustrated and openly showing it which he didn't do at beginning when he was building players confidence up and eking out results If he doesn't now play more youngsters and sticks with same back four he will loose further credibility so he now has to put his money where his mouth is as berating players isn't motivating them to turn in better performances for him We were probably always going to reach this stage at some point given T B s Personality but it's bad timing .

brian6-2
18-03-2014, 09:52 AM
why not break the habit of a lifetime and just give the guy some time.

HappyAsHellas
18-03-2014, 10:39 AM
This is not the hardest league in the world to achieve something in. The fact that Aberdeen looked pretty average in the cup final was because Hayes and Pawlett were missing, and so was any creativity. A few quality players makes a hell of a difference to any team. TB does have to have a big clear out but we don't need an entire new squad coming in. Build on quality and youth and over time we can have a bloody good team. But time is the biggest factor. TB needs it, and we MUST give him it.

greenpaper55
18-03-2014, 10:46 AM
Butcher seems to set himself up for a fall every week, he and some of the players are always in EN spouting about the upcoming game, do your talking on the pitch.

JimBHibees
18-03-2014, 11:01 AM
why not break the habit of a lifetime and just give the guy some time.

That would never work as too much like common sense. :greengrin

stevejordan
18-03-2014, 11:41 AM
why not break the habit of a lifetime and just give the guy some time.

they have got till the AGM if current form continues

BOB MARLEYS DUG
18-03-2014, 12:10 PM
they have got till the AGM if current form continues

Is that you, Rod?

SaulGoodman
18-03-2014, 12:32 PM
Butcher seems to set himself up for a fall every week, he and some of the players are always in EN spouting about the upcoming game, do your talking on the pitch.

New survey shockingly reveals players and managers get asked to do interviews

silverhibee
18-03-2014, 01:48 PM
What if he gets rid of 8 players but only brings in 4 better quality replacements. We don't need a whole new team and we will never have 11 quality players in our starting line up. Quality rather than quantity is the way forward, using the players already here and bringing through the youngsters.

That is the one thing that is annoying me, the players who will be here next season seem to have downed tools already, you would think they would be busting a gut for the new manager to prove there worth for a starting place next season but no they are just going through the motions in games just now.

For me we need a new goalkeeper, left & right backs, new CH, 2 midfielder's and a new striker to complement our young players in Harris Stanton & Hanlon who should all be first team players next season.

But the most important thing for everyone is that any new players brought in for next season must be signed and paraded for the first day of pre-season so that the management team can drum in to them over the summer at EM there style of football for the new season ahead.

greenpaper55
18-03-2014, 01:52 PM
New survey shockingly reveals players and managers get asked to do interviews

So what ?, fed up of the same every week of we can still reach the top six blah blah, just go and do it.

SaulGoodman
18-03-2014, 01:55 PM
So what ?, fed up of the same every week of we can still reach the top six blah blah, just go and do it.

Don't read it then.

lord bunberry
18-03-2014, 01:56 PM
That is the one thing that is annoying me, the players who will be here next season seem to have downed tools already, you would think they would be busting a gut for the new manager to prove there worth for a starting place next season but no they are just going through the motions in games just now.

For me we need a new goalkeeper, left & right backs, new CH, 2 midfielder's and a new striker to complement our young players in Harris Stanton & Hanlon who should all be first team players next season.

But the most important thing for everyone is that any new players brought in for next season must be signed and paraded for the first day of pre-season so that the management team can drum in to them over the summer at EM there style of football for the new season ahead.

Like it or not some of the current team will be starting the 1st game next season. I haven't given up on Mcgivern and I'm hopeful that Forster can grow into a decent right back.
I totally agree about getting new signings in early, leaving it till the last minute has been one of our biggest problems recently.

greenpaper55
18-03-2014, 01:58 PM
Don't read it then.

I suspect a lot of folk don't read it anymore, we are doing so well spouting off every week.

talcy
18-03-2014, 05:22 PM
The weight currently sitting on the shoulders of TB and MM is that of SEVEN years of failure at the club. A failure by a series of managers to develop the team by, as others on here have said, signing a big load of journeymen and average players in a roundabout that has left us with no heart, no spirit and no concept of our own identity as a team. TB and MM have been in the door for 5 months. But you go ahead and fire in and put it all on them for not turning seven years of complete failure around quickly enough for your liking. Do you really think that anyone alive could turn the mess Hibs are in around in a few months?

When Butcher arrived, he said it would take around 18 months to get things back on track. Looking at the current state of the club and team he inherited, I would say he was being optimistic, but as a fan, at least I`m prepared to at least give him the time he needs. Or should we sack him too around Christmas and go on sticking with what we know best; how to fail on the park by sacrificing stability again and again and again, especially now that we finally seem to have a manager who has actually succeeded previously and has a clear idea of all the long term dirty work that needs to be done?

I tell you what, don't bother commenting on what I actually said - just make up stuff about me expecting to be the finished article after 5 months and calling for their heads - thus making me less of a fan than others.

TB & MM have a hell of a job on their hands. I fervently hope they succeed. Publicly turning on the people they have to work with to achieve the bare minimum acceptable result of staying in the SPFL is a strange way to go about it IMO, as it's creating divisions and heaping more pressure on a group that are already low on confidence and whose supporters don't need much encouragement to turn on them right now. Nothing is entirely the management team's fault, nothing is entirely the playing staff's fault.

FWIW, even though you've already read my mind and decided what my expectations are already, I think it's entirely reasonable to expect an experienced SPFL management team to be producing signs of clear, sustainable improvement after 5 months. Not producing consistent results. Not producing a top 6 finish. Improvement. Contrary to popular opinion, I suspect quite a few of this squad will still be with us next season - so not only is improvement important in the here and now, it's important for the medium term as well. Here's hoping they all come together and figure out how to halt the recent slump, sooner rather than later. GGTTH.

jeffers
18-03-2014, 06:48 PM
I think it's entirely reasonable to expect an experienced SPFL management team to be producing signs of clear, sustainable improvement after 5 months. Not producing consistent results. Not producing a top 6 finish. Improvement.

Absolutely spot on. So far I have seen absolutely no sign of this, we are no better than under PF and imo the football is actually worse to watch.

rcarter1
18-03-2014, 07:39 PM
Absolutely spot on. So far I have seen absolutely no sign of this, we are no better than under PF and imo the football is actually worse to watch.

Is that possible? :greengrin

Swedish hibee
18-03-2014, 08:00 PM
Absolutely spot on. So far I have seen absolutely no sign of this, we are no better than under PF and imo the football is actually worse to watch.

this is what I find so depressing. We are worse.

Jonnyboy
18-03-2014, 08:01 PM
That is the one thing that is annoying me, the players who will be here next season seem to have downed tools already, you would think they would be busting a gut for the new manager to prove there worth for a starting place next season but no they are just going through the motions in games just now.

For me we need a new goalkeeper, left & right backs, new CH, 2 midfielder's and a new striker to complement our young players in Harris Stanton & Hanlon who should all be first team players next season.

But the most important thing for everyone is that any new players brought in for next season must be signed and paraded for the first day of pre-season so that the management team can drum in to them over the summer at EM there style of football for the new season ahead.

I understand that's exactly what TB plans to do P. I also understand there are nine players currently on his shopping list

Speedway
18-03-2014, 08:46 PM
I understand that's exactly what TB plans to do P. I also understand there are nine players currently on his shopping list

Aren't there on every manager's list, JB?

NorthNorfolkHFC
18-03-2014, 08:53 PM
Hopefully he gets all nine then early doors to give them a chance to play together.

As opposed to our usual last minute jobs after losing a couple of games.


"Kommen sie bitte und listen to Kraftwerk!"

truehibernian
18-03-2014, 09:04 PM
Hopefully he gets all nine then early doors to give them a chance to play together.

As opposed to our usual last minute jobs after losing a couple of games.


"Kommen sie bitte und listen to Kraftwerk!"

I'm hearing TB is insisting on it - pressure is on Petrie to deliver.

The Green Goblin
18-03-2014, 09:10 PM
I tell you what, don't bother commenting on what I actually said - just make up stuff about me expecting to be the finished article after 5 months and calling for their heads - thus making me less of a fan than others.

TB & MM have a hell of a job on their hands. I fervently hope they succeed. Publicly turning on the people they have to work with to achieve the bare minimum acceptable result of staying in the SPFL is a strange way to go about it IMO, as it's creating divisions and heaping more pressure on a group that are already low on confidence and whose supporters don't need much encouragement to turn on them right now. Nothing is entirely the management team's fault, nothing is entirely the playing staff's fault.

FWIW, even though you've already read my mind and decided what my expectations are already, I think it's entirely reasonable to expect an experienced SPFL management team to be producing signs of clear, sustainable improvement after 5 months. Not producing consistent results. Not producing a top 6 finish. Improvement. Contrary to popular opinion, I suspect quite a few of this squad will still be with us next season - so not only is improvement important in the here and now, it's important for the medium term as well. Here's hoping they all come together and figure out how to halt the recent slump, sooner rather than later. GGTTH.

I think you have put one or two words in my mouth yourself there, but okay... I don't disagree with the idea that we are no better. My point is that squad wise, we have been awful for years and that this is making it a much bigger task to improve than it normally might be for a new manager. Put bluntly, expectations of noticeable improvement are unrealistic, given the mess created over the last seven years. I also hope the slump ends, but not the slump you might argue that TB has presided over in the eyes of some, but the total slump Hibs as a club have been in for years now. Again, that is going to take some doing. Winning one or two games here or there at this point might feel good for a few weeks, but ultimately it will mean nothing unless there follows a much longer, sustained period of improvement.

Jonnyboy
18-03-2014, 09:20 PM
Aren't there on every manager's list, JB?

I guess so :greengrin

I'm told they are specific players as opposed to just players for positions needed if you catch my drift.

Also, have heard the same as truehibernian - post above

BOB MARLEYS DUG
18-03-2014, 09:21 PM
I'm hearing TB is insisting on it - pressure is on Petrie to deliver.

:agree: Wants 9 in ASAP so he can work with them, all pre season.

TheFamous1875
18-03-2014, 09:37 PM
:agree: Wants 9 in ASAP so he can work with them, all pre season.

What have you heard?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Saorsa
18-03-2014, 09:41 PM
What have you heard?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HDMy guess would be that he's heard that he 'wants 9 in ASAP so he can work with them, all pre season'. :dunno:

BOB MARLEYS DUG
18-03-2014, 09:42 PM
What have you heard?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

That we wants up to nine players in as early as he can so he can work with them in pre season to gel them in.

NorthNorfolkHFC
18-03-2014, 09:50 PM
Realistically I wonder who where he wants to buy in? Assuming 9 come in, where would they play? It's interesting to think who would leave.

Ronniekirk
18-03-2014, 10:03 PM
I guess so :greengrin

I'm told they are specific players as opposed to just players for positions needed if you catch my drift.

Also, have heard the same as truehibernian - post above

Hope it's true ,and if part of deal to bring them in was there wouldn't be a lot of dealings in January and we know we are going to go through a difficult period but you will get backing in Summer then If Petrie isn't Delivering T B won't be slow to let his feelings be known .Given how frustrated he is at present I think he is the principled type that would let the fans know promises made were being broken .So interesting times ahead

The Green Goblin
18-03-2014, 10:08 PM
Realistically I wonder who where he wants to buy in? Assuming 9 come in, where would they play? It's interesting to think who would leave.

Hopefully not Butcher if he doesn't get his wish :greengrin

snooky
18-03-2014, 11:08 PM
I understand that's exactly what TB plans to do P. I also understand there are nine players currently on his shopping list

That may well be the case however, can I use an analogy for TB's transfer window this summer ....

It will be like going into the beer store with the wife and she's got the purse.
How much beer do you think you'll be able to buy?