Tony Benn has died

[hibsbollah]

Really sad to hear the news that my political hero passed away overnight. I was lucky enough to talk to him after a speech in Newcastle and the kindness and warmth of the man was just tangible. His speech to the Commons on the iraq war vote still brings a tear to my eye (sadly absent from youtube).

A truly great, principled man.

[oregonhibby]

The last of the truly great Labour politicians who firmly believed in social fairness, justice and equity.

I heard him speak on a number of occasions and he was the best debater I have ever heard. Even when he disagreed with a position he was always courteous and allowed the other side to express their views regardless of what he thought about them.

A politician and a human being of true conviction. A great humanitarian and one who championed progress in the 1960's.

I am by no means a socialist but I do believe I can acknowledge and recognise greatness. His wisdom will be greatly missed.

[PeeJay]

Really admired Tony Benn in many ways, but feel overall his intention to drag the Labour Party to the far left was ill considered, and ultimately damaging to his ideals, as it caused such a schism in the party/movement.

Loved listening to him and his convincing argumentative style, agreed with much of what he had to say, but by far not all of it ... sad loss - currently reading "Dare to be a Daniel", well worth a look ...

[hibby rae]

I was fortunate enough to meet him once, he was a really lovely man. As Miliband said he was true 'champion of the powerless'.

[yeezus.]

Saddened by this news. I remember reading his "Letters to my grandchildren" and thought he pointed out some major flaws in New Labour.

A true hero, RIP.

[Betty Boop]

RIP Tony Benn a true socialist. The anti-war movement has lost a great campaigner.

[Hibernia&Alba]

RIP Tony Benn a true socialist. The anti-war movement has lost a great campaigner.

Very well said, Betty. Men like Tony Benn don't grow on trees. His humanity and commitment to the underdog were inspiring. Very sad day indeed.

[lucky]

It's been a bad week for the left in the UK firstly with Bob Crows death and now the political giant and legend of left wing politics Tony Benn. I have been fortunate to have met them both. Different characters but both champions of the people

RIP comrades

[sadtom]

A sad day.
Fought his whole days for those less fortunate. Always carrying out the fight with eloquence and passion.
He will be sorely missed.
R.I.P Tony

[PatHead]

A thoroughly decent, honourable gentleman. RIP

[nonshinyfinish]

A truly great, principled man.

Absolutely.

RIP.

[Betty Boop]

Very well said, Betty. Men like Tony Benn don't grow on trees. His humanity and commitment to the underdog were inspiring. Very sad day indeed.

http://i62.tinypic.com/21b80tj.jpg

[NAE NOOKIE]

Very sad to hear that the great man has died.

We are still in times where supposed socialist politicians wont rock the boat too much in case the hoped for peerage is put in danger. Heres a man who gave his up to get into the commons.

A true man of the people who ultimately failed when you look at how things are these days. The only real power held by the people in the shape of trades unions has been neutered, making the untimely death of Bob Crow two nails in the coffin of socialism in a week.

The right wing must think Christmas has come early.

R.I.P Tony and Bob too.

[Betty Boop]

Anybody remember this ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YYroSudUs

[hibsbollah]

Very sad to hear that the great man has died.

We are still in times where supposed socialist politicians wont rock the boat too much in case the hoped for peerage is put in danger. Heres a man who gave his up to get into the commons.

A true man of the people who ultimately failed when you look at how things are these days. The only real power held by the people in the shape of trades unions has been neutered, making the untimely death of Bob Crow two nails in the coffin of socialism in a week.

The right wing must think Christmas has come early.

R.I.P Tony and Bob too.

That is one interpretation. I prefer this more optimistic take on it though..

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/14/left-after-tony-benn-bob-crow?CMP=twt_gu

This is good too, Benns five questions for the powerful 'What power do you have? Where did you get it? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And How do we get rid of you?'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/15/10-of-the-best-tony-benn-quotes-as-picked-by-our-readers

[Phil D. Rolls]

Very sad to hear that the great man has died.

We are still in times where supposed socialist politicians wont rock the boat too much in case the hoped for peerage is put in danger. Heres a man who gave his up to get into the commons.

A true man of the people who ultimately failed when you look at how things are these days. The only real power held by the people in the shape of trades unions has been neutered, making the untimely death of Bob Crow two nails in the coffin of socialism in a week.

The right wing must think Christmas has come early.

R.I.P Tony and Bob too.

What exactly did Benn achieve, other than to build a legacy for his own legend? He rocked the boat and Thatcher romped home.

He always made me think of a left wing Enoch Powell. Very intelligent, very right, very ineffectual.

As for being a true man of the people, he certainly knew how to take advantage of the stock market. Particularly when he could make a speech that lowered a company's share price.

All of that said, I do wish that he could have brought about the society he advocated. I agreed with nearly everything he said.

[lapsedhibee]

he certainly knew how to take advantage of the stock market. Particularly when he could make a speech that lowered a company's share price
What's the back-story to that bit?

[Phil D. Rolls]

What's the back-story to that bit?

Fraid this will be a bit "ITK". A relative worked in the registrars department of an Edinburgh financial institution in the 80s. I was told that Benn was buying shares in a company, shortly after denouncing them in the Commons. This meant the price took a dip on the back of his questions.

I'd add, this was pre. Insider Dealing laws, so nothing illegal happened. Just a side note to the story, but it shows that most politicians don't shy away from a nice little earner.

[NAE NOOKIE]

What exactly did Benn achieve, other than to build a legacy for his own legend? He rocked the boat and Thatcher romped home.

He always made me think of a left wing Enoch Powell. Very intelligent, very right, very ineffectual.

As for being a true man of the people, he certainly knew how to take advantage of the stock market. Particularly when he could make a speech that lowered a company's share price.

All of that said, I do wish that he could have brought about the society he advocated. I agreed with nearly everything he said.

Kind of what I was alluding to when I said he ultimately failed. As for Thatcher romping home what can you say, the influence of the Sun newspaper and the rest of the right wing press always makes it difficult for socialism in this country, coz the peasants are always so happy to be lead by the nose. The only socialist (sic) politician who bucked the trend was Blair and that was because he was prepared to kiss the arse of big business and the Tory press.

Like you said ..... TB was often very right, which aint much good if folk wont listen.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Kind of what I was alluding to when I said he ultimately failed. As for Thatcher romping home what can you say, the influence of the Sun newspaper and the rest of the right wing press always makes it difficult for socialism in this country, coz the peasants are always so happy to be lead by the nose. The only socialist (sic) politician who bucked the trend was Blair and that was because he was prepared to kiss the arse of big business and the Tory press.

Like you said ..... TB was often very right, which aint much good if folk wont listen.

I feel he could have influenced people who had the power to make change better. I think Benn liked the fact the people were paying attention to him. He promoted a cult around himself.

[lapsedhibee]

Fraid this will be a bit "ITK". A relative worked in the registrars department of an Edinburgh financial institution in the 80s. I was told that Benn was buying shares in a company, shortly after denouncing them in the Commons. This meant the price took a dip on the back of his questions.

I'd add, this was pre. Insider Dealing laws, so nothing illegal happened. Just a side note to the story, but it shows that most politicians don't shy away from a nice little earner.

Ta.

[hibsbollah]

Radio 4 are doing his readings of 'free at last, diaries 1991-2001' this week. The friendships he made with political enemies (david davis, john major,:rev ian paisley snr) is quite a testament to him. Great listening.

[heretoday]

I used to have tapes of Tony Benn's Diaries.

They were very interesting until I began to realise that the only person who came out smelling of roses was Tony Benn!

[hibsbollah]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/audio/2014/mar/14/tony-benn-interview-labour-audio

A thought provoking hour long interview from 2006.

[RyeSloan]

Kind of what I was alluding to when I said he ultimately failed. As for Thatcher romping home what can you say, the influence of the Sun newspaper and the rest of the right wing press always makes it difficult for socialism in this country, coz the peasants are always so happy to be lead by the nose. The only socialist (sic) politician who bucked the trend was Blair and that was because he was prepared to kiss the arse of big business and the Tory press. Like you said ..... TB was often very right, which aint much good if folk wont listen.

Socialism in his country failed not because of thatcher but because socialism failed...I read this a lot that the right did this and the sun did that but the 70's shows why central government control is no match for the market.

There is of course many details where you argue this and that but I would argue that there is few, if any, examples of socialism actually working as a means to run a country and it's economy.

Benn was a passionate man and someone to be respected...that shouldn't mean his ideas shouldn't be questioned. Crow was the same, someone stuck in an idealist past that still managed to take home 140k and live in subsidised housing while 'fighting for the workers'

tin hat well and truly on :-)

[Phil D. Rolls]

Socialism in his country failed not because of thatcher but because socialism failed...I read this a lot that the right did this and the sun did that but the 70's shows why central government control is no match for the market.

There is of course many details where you argue this and that but I would argue that there is few, if any, examples of socialism actually working as a means to run a country and it's economy.

Benn was a passionate man and someone to be respected...that shouldn't mean his ideas shouldn't be questioned. Crow was the same, someone stuck in an idealist past that still managed to take home 140k and live in subsidised housing while 'fighting for the workers'

tin hat well and truly on :-)

I get the impression they made a good fist of it in Cuba.

Agree with you about Crow by the way. Why not take the same wage as his members, a train drivers salary seems a fair whack.

[hibsbollah]

Socialism in his country failed not because of thatcher but because socialism failed...I read this a lot that the right did this and the sun did that but the 70's shows why central government control is no match for the market.

There is of course many details where you argue this and that but I would argue that there is few, if any, examples of socialism actually working as a means to run a country and it's economy.

Benn was a passionate man and someone to be respected...that shouldn't mean his ideas shouldn't be questioned. Crow was the same, someone stuck in an idealist past that still managed to take home 140k and live in subsidised housing while 'fighting for the workers'

tin hat well and truly on :-)

Its the question that Benn gets asked in the very long interview link I posted. He gets a polite but determined grilling...'how do you account for the consistent failure of socialism to achieve electoral success in Britain over tge last forty years?' without answering 'it wasnt popular enough' is a tough question for Benn to answer but he makes you rethink your position more than once, a skill beyond most of his contemporaries.

You dont need your tin hat, we all know what side of the fence you're on :greengrin

[(((Fergus)))]

I get the impression they made a good fist of it in Cuba.

Agree with you about Crow by the way. Why not take the same wage as his members, a train drivers salary seems a fair whack.

Fist being the operative word.

Any government that requires the military to stop the people - whose republic it supposedly is - from escaping their paradise is in a total state of delusion.

[RyeSloan]

Its the question that Benn gets asked in the very long interview link I posted. He gets a polite but determined grilling...'how do you account for the consistent failure of socialism to achieve electoral success in Britain over tge last forty years?' without answering 'it wasnt popular enough' is a tough question for Benn to answer but he makes you rethink your position more than once, a skill beyond most of his contemporaries. You dont need your tin hat, we all know what side of the fence you're on :greengrin

Yeah true, doubtful you had me down as a staunch proponent of Benn's policies!

I've not watched the link but I'm sure his answer was a good one...he was certainly more than capable of making an excellent argument for his position. Didn't make that position a correct one though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Fist being the operative word.

Any government that requires the military to stop the people - whose republic it supposedly is - from escaping their paradise is in a total state of delusion.

Fair enough, I don't know much about Cuba. Sounds like its been pretty hard for its people these last 50 odd years. No doubt it was much better for them when the Mafia were in control.

[lucky]

Some fairly slanderous comments against Benn and Crow on here. Crow's salary was not £140k, check the certification officers website for proof. The £140k was made up of his salary, pension contribution from the RMT and their NI contributions. He lived in his council most of his adult life and saw no reason to move his family home based on his salary.

There is no proof that Tony Benn was involved in any insider dealing, legal or not. Just a accusation of some ITK. In my opinion a new low for Hibs.net. Let's put the boot into prominent left wingers who have sadly passed away

[Phil D. Rolls]

Some fairly slanderous comments against Benn and Crow on here. Crow's salary was not £140k, check the certification officers website for proof. The £140k was made up of his salary, pension contribution from the RMT and their NI contributions. He lived in his council most of his adult life and saw no reason to move his family home based on his salary.

There is no proof that Tony Benn was involved in any insider dealing, legal or not. Just a accusation of some ITK. In my opinion a new low for Hibs.net. Let's put the boot into prominent left wingers who have sadly passed away

Believe what you want pal. I have no reason to make it up.

Sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make it go away. Personally, I don't think it alters the validity of what he said, but it does prove he's not the saint some want him to be.

[Beefster]

Let's put the boot into prominent left wingers who have sadly passed away

It would be okay if they had a different political outlook?

[hibsbollah]

It would be okay if they had a different political outlook?

I was thinking about this when I started the thread; how would I respond if lots of posters who doubtless disagree with me on most things jumped all over a RIP thread. I think we had similar discussions when Thatcher died; although the ferocious abuse she got wasn't on a RIP thread IIRC.

I'm sure Tony could have coped with it, regardless.

[Beefster]

I was thinking about this when I started the thread; how would I respond if lots of posters who doubtless disagree with me on most things jumped all over a RIP thread. I think we had similar discussions when Thatcher died; although the ferocious abuse she got wasn't on a RIP thread IIRC.

I'm sure Tony could have coped with it, regardless.

I agree about RIP threads, although I tend to avoid them irrespective of whether I admired the person or not. I was just intrigued by the implication that hypocrisy or inconsistency shouldn't be pointed for left wingers.

[lucky]

Believe what you want pal. I have no reason to make it up.

Sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make it go away. Personally, I don't think it alters the validity of what he said, but it does prove he's not the saint some want him to be.
Not sticking fingers in my ears, pal, just because you got told all these years ago does not make it true.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Not sticking fingers in my ears, pal, just because you got told all these years ago does not make it true.

I shared that information to let people see Benn wasn't Santa Claus, or the Messiah - he was a human being. I don't have an agenda against him, and neither does the person who told me.

I didn't say it was insider dealing, in fact I made a point of stating that it wasn't. It is evidence of a politician using his position to make a quick buck.

I can't see why they would make it up, and I do know that the person was in a position to know it. I think your argument - which appears to be to shoot the messenger - does a disservice to Tony Benn.

He was a man who was so good in a debate, he'd have you doubting who your own mother is. You, on the other hand, seem to think that wilfully ignoring good information is all it takes to win your point. I'm pretty sure that Benn would cringe at your gunboat debating skills.

At least I am contributing something to the discussion about his legacy. Unlike you, I've seen him as a man, rather than a two dimensional comic book hero. I don't remember Benn making himself out to be morally superior to anyone.

By treating him like he was Che Guevara, you are doing him a disservice. Lots of people were put off from listening to him, because the left needed an icon to rally round. The sight of people fawning at a gurus feet, and the guru allowing it, was quite noxious at times.

How much Benn himself encouraged that is open to debate. It's fair to say that a lot of what he said was distorted. It's also fair to say he did enjoy making his point.

For me, I think his greatest legacy is that he taught people to think for themselves.Never to accept the explanations that people in authority give; to question people's motivation; never to have sacred cows.

It's a shame that some people are more interested in the cult of his personality, rather than what we can learn from what he said.

[heretoday]

I find it hard to accept that Benn has gone somehow.

He always just seemed to be there.

I am not surprised that his funeral was in a church. He called himself "a lapsed Atheist"!

Many of us are in the vicinity of the kirk - or at least edging closer to the door.

[lucky]

I shared that information to let people see Benn wasn't Santa Claus, or the Messiah - he was a human being. I don't have an agenda against him, and neither does the person who told me.

I didn't say it was insider dealing, in fact I made a point of stating that it wasn't. It is evidence of a politician using his position to make a quick buck.

I can't see why they would make it up, and I do know that the person was in a position to know it. I think your argument - which appears to be to shoot the messenger - does a disservice to Tony Benn.

He was a man who was so good in a debate, he'd have you doubting who your own mother is. You, on the other hand, seem to think that wilfully ignoring good information is all it takes to win your point. I'm pretty sure that Benn would cringe at your gunboat debating skills.

At least I am contributing something to the discussion about his legacy. Unlike you, I've seen him as a man, rather than a two dimensional comic book hero. I don't remember Benn making himself out to be morally superior to anyone.

By treating him like he was Che Guevara, you are doing him a disservice. Lots of people were put off from listening to him, because the left needed an icon to rally round. The sight of people fawning at a gurus feet, and the guru allowing it, was quite noxious at times.

How much Benn himself encouraged that is open to debate. It's fair to say that a lot of what he said was distorted. It's also fair to say he did enjoy making his point.

For me, I think his greatest legacy is that he taught people to think for themselves.Never to accept the explanations that people in authority give; to question people's motivation; never to have sacred cows.

It's a shame that some people are more interested in the cult of his personality, rather than what we can learn from what he said.

It's impossible to debate on this with you when your claim is the issue. As for gunboat debating your response is more aggressive than my point. I do find it intriguing that you think that you are in a position to judge what Tony Benn would have thought about my questions to you on your character blacking by you. The common theme in my response is YOU. As you appear to want defend your comments ,non evidence based, with a rant against me.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's impossible to debate on this with you when your claim is the issue. As for gunboat debating your response is more aggressive than my point. I do find it intriguing that you think that you are in a position to judge what Tony Benn would have thought about my questions to you on your character blacking by you. The common theme in my response is YOU. As you appear to want defend your comments ,non evidence based, with a rant against me.

I think you are right, but why would I make the story up. See the man for what he was and respect his humanity - which includes flaws.

Of course I can't judge what Benn would have thought. I didn't know him, but I think I know more about him than you.

I found your original response simplistic, and the wee bit about "kicking another left winger" pathetic. I'm not interested in you, just your response to the arguments.

Your only answer was to imply that I am a liar, and that the whole shares issue was made up. Once again, I can assure you it did happen. Deal with it.

[lucky]

I think you are right, but why would I make the story up. See the man for what he was and respect his humanity - which includes flaws.

Of course I can't judge what Benn would have thought. I didn't know him, but I think I know more about him than you.

I found your original response simplistic, and the wee bit about "kicking another left winger" pathetic. I'm not interested in you, just your response to the arguments.

Your only answer was to imply that I am a liar, and that the whole shares issue was made up. Once again, I can assure you it did happen. Deal with it.

Never once called you a liar. I just find it hard to believe that your friends version of what took place in the 70s is fact. From what I know and read of Tony Benn I just can't see him manipulating the situation to enable him to,purchase shares at a reduced value following his speech.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Never once called you a liar. I just find it hard to believe that your friends version of what took place in the 70s is fact. From what I know and read of Tony Benn I just can't see him manipulating the situation to enable him to,purchase shares at a reduced value following his speech.

It's a surprising contrast between his public persona, and his private dealings. But does it make any difference to whether his politics were right, or not? I'd say it doesn't.

However, if you see the politics and the man as the same thing, it's a different story. Personally, I see all politicians as egotistical hypocrites.

[lucky]

The Labour and Trade union movement in Scotland are to hold a celebration of Tony's life on the 30/11/14 in the Glasgow Concert hall. This will include stalls, speeches and a Q&A ,a film of his life, and comedy and music. Tonys family have been asked if they will also provide a speaker on the day. When I get more details about the event I will post them