What was Tom Hart like?

[TheFamous1875]

Following on from other threads complaining about the running of our club, I thought it'd make a good thread for some of the more 'weather beaten' faithful to explain to us youthful, success-starved types how the club was run back then. All I know is that he got George Best in to the dismay of Eddie Turnbull in order to punt up the ticket sales at the time when Hibs were in decline. Making football decisions against the manager's wishes in my eyes is the wrong way to run a football club.

However, this is the same man who oversaw successful Hibs teams of the 1960s and 70s when Hibs would pay fees for established players (Alan Gordon, Alec Edwards) who would turn out to be integral cogs in great teams.

So, from manager to manager, success to strife - how exactly was the club run back in those days in comparison to today? What were the pros and cons of his tenure?

[Kaiser_Sauzee]

Following on from other threads complaining about the running of our club, I thought it'd make a good thread for some of the more 'weather beaten' faithful to explain to us youthful, success-starved types how the club was run back then. All I know is that he got George Best in to the dismay of Eddie Turnbull in order to punt up the ticket sales at the time when Hibs were in decline. Making football decisions against the manager's wishes in my eyes is the wrong way to run a football club.

However, this is the same man who oversaw successful Hibs teams of the 1960s and 70s when Hibs would pay fees for established players (Alan Gordon, Alec Edwards) who would turn out to be integral cogs in great teams.

So, from manager to manager, success to strife - how exactly was the club run back in those days in comparison to today? What were the pros and cons of his tenure?

A great opening post and by far one of the more potentially interesting threads on this site in recent weeks. Surprised this hasn't had any responses.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Following on from other threads complaining about the running of our club, I thought it'd make a good thread for some of the more 'weather beaten' faithful to explain to us youthful, success-starved types how the club was run back then. All I know is that he got George Best in to the dismay of Eddie Turnbull in order to punt up the ticket sales at the time when Hibs were in decline. Making football decisions against the manager's wishes in my eyes is the wrong way to run a football club.

However, this is the same man who oversaw successful Hibs teams of the 1960s and 70s when Hibs would pay fees for established players (Alan Gordon, Alec Edwards) who would turn out to be integral cogs in great teams.

So, from manager to manager, success to strife - how exactly was the club run back in those days in comparison to today? What were the pros and cons of his tenure?

I'm sure other people can give you more detail. Hart didn't take over till the 70s

He ran the club as his personal fiefdom, he didn't get on very well with the fans. He did put a lot of his own money in.

The main criticism is that the club wasn't run on any business principles at all. That meant that when e died there was a big hole in the income. We were in a mess for many years after.

Managers found him difficult, as he went over their heads over team selection, and bonuses. He sometimes embarrassed the club at the SFA. For example, Motherwell had most of their first team squad signed off during a flu epidemic. Hart went against sporting principles, and insisted they play a cup replay against us - being the Scottish Cup, they won of course.

The original complex character, nevertheless he did fund a great team. Sound like anyone we know?

Over to the real experts.

[Iggy Pope]

Following on from other threads complaining about the running of our club, I thought it'd make a good thread for some of the more 'weather beaten' faithful to explain to us youthful, success-starved types how the club was run back then. All I know is that he got George Best in to the dismay of Eddie Turnbull in order to punt up the ticket sales at the time when Hibs were in decline. Making football decisions against the manager's wishes in my eyes is the wrong way to run a football club.

However, this is the same man who oversaw successful Hibs teams of the 1960s and 70s when Hibs would pay fees for established players (Alan Gordon, Alec Edwards) who would turn out to be integral cogs in great teams.

So, from manager to manager, success to strife - how exactly was the club run back in those days in comparison to today? What were the pros and cons of his tenure?

We didn't have much success in the way of winning things in the 60s and Hart wasn't there then anyway.

He was in charge to bring Eddie Turnbull back as manager and we had a few great years and a great side, no question.

However, the history books don't lie and we had one major honour to show for it, a League Cup, so pretty much the same end delivery as the current regime.

Hart was what you might call a 'firebrand' and he had little time for the authorities.
TV cameras were banned at one time as was Joe Harper for growing a beard!

It did not end at all well and ER used to simmer in a 'Hart Must Go' frenzy any time things were going badly. And that was often.

[greenpaper55]

Like most fans i never met Tom Hart but i do know he gave me the best footballing moments of my life namely the 7-0 game and a team that could give many of the best teams in Europe a run for their money. No doubt the real experts who were not even born then will tell me i'm wrong.

[Hibs Class]

I was still at primary school during his time in charge; my memory is hazy so happy to be corrected. He was against TV cameras, don't recollect if it was because he thought too much TV coverage would drive down crowds, but it was a battle he fought for a while. I also think he may have been there when Hibs were the first to seek shirt sponsorship from Bukta and that led to another confrontation - we had Bukta across the chest for non-TV games and a much smaller logo when televised.

One memory relates to John MacDonald, mentioned on the biggest cheats thread. Hart was so outraged that he spoke publicly, accusing the diving cheat of being a diving cheat and getting a sizeable fine in the process.

[ALF TUPPER]

I was quite young when Tom Hart was about but seem to recall he ran around in a 5L Classic Bristol car. (Dont know how i remember that) He underwrote George Best's salary himself and chucked a load of personal ££dosh into the Club.

I got the impression he treated the club like it was his very own toy.

I kinda liked him. :greengrin

I'm sure there are other Hibbys who can tell us more about the guy. Definitely wasnt the worse.

[Hibs Class]

There's also a thread from 3-4 years ago which has quite a bit on him (& which will save some other.netters having to repost :devil:)

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?187044-Great-Hibernian-Chairmen

[One Day]

He was never afraid to say what he thought. His response to an article in the media stating that Scottish football needed more Celtic and Rangers fans was..... "Scottish football needs more Celtic and Rangers fans like Custer needed more Indians". Good answer

[JAY-ESS GREEN]

Can't remember the year but our bus broke down on Way to hampden and tom pulled over gave 3 of us lift to game top bloke.

[GordonHFC]

I always found him to be an amiable guy to talk to.

Him and Tommy Younger used to eat/drink regularly at the old Queensway Hotel on the Queensferry Road next to the Stewarts Melville school (no longer there). My mate used to work behind the bar and Tom Hart gave us tickets for the England v Scotland game in 1979.

[ancient hibee]

It was definitely his way or no way.He got rid of Willie McFarlane by trying to pick his team.When season ticket holders in the centre stand complained about missing kick offs because there was only one turnstile while two walk up turnstiles were unused his response was to put up a notice telling us to be seated 10 mintes before kick off.On the other hand he put in the money and the club behaved like a proper big club and he did it for the club not to make himself appear the star.He and Eddie were two of a kind and it was amazing that they worked together as long as they did.

[fat freddy]

He will always be remembered for bringing Eddie Turnbull to the club which, in turn, led to a period of success that was better than anything we've had since. He will also be remembered for bringing George Best to the club. Whether that was good for the club at the time or not is debatable but the fact that George Best played for Hibs is now viewed through green tinted glasses as an amazing feat. During his tenure we contested six cup finals, eight if you count replays, winning three and losing three, plus two draws if you consider the 1979 finals. Not a bad record but despite that he left us with the fans chanting 'Hart must Go!' most saturdays....thats football, i suppose

[superfurryhibby]

During his tenure as owner I was too young to have any opinion on the merits of his stewardship. History and hindsight suggests to me that Tom Hart quickly tired of football club ownership and that by the time he sold us to Kenny Waugh, the club had been relegated and was on it's knees.

In 1974 the club broke the Scottish transfer record by buying wee fat Joe. Within a few years every sellable asset associated with the team had gone. Hibs sold on Brownlie, Blackley, Bremner, Cropley, and Smith, all bringing in pretty decent transfer fees. None of them were replaced and the decline was inevitable.

Difficult to appraise but relegation and the decade of mediocrity that followed suggests to me that Hart left Hibs in a worse place than when he took over.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Gruff, tough, no nonsense and a Hibs fanatic, didn't take any **** from the weegie media,

Just don't make em like him anymore for sure.

[jacomo]

There's also a thread from 3-4 years ago which has quite a bit on him (& which will save some other.netters having to repost :devil:)

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?187044-Great-Hibernian-Chairmen

Thanks to OP and you for this link. Before my time so an interesting read.

I note that Doddie is singing the praises of Farmer and Petrie back in 2010, but is now leading the case for the prosecution. Just shows how opinions can change.

[Peevemor]

During his tenure as owner I was too young to have any opinion on the merits of his stewardship. History and hindsight suggests to me that Tom Hart quickly tired of football club ownership and that by the time he sold us to Kenny Waugh, the club had been relegated and was on it's knees.

In 1974 the club broke the Scottish transfer record by buying wee fat Joe. Within a few years every sellable asset associated with the team had gone. Hibs sold on Brownlie, Blackley, Bremner, Cropley, and Smith, all bringing in pretty decent transfer fees. None of them were replaced and the decline was inevitable.

Difficult to appraise but relegation and the decade of mediocrity that followed suggests to me that Hart left Hibs in a worse place than when he took over.

It should be remembered that it was during the mid-late 70s, ie. toward the end of Hart's tenure, that attendances everywhere plummeted with Hibs and Hearts both regularly playing to home gates of around 5,000 (with entry being a lot cheaper in relative terms than it is now).

The OP also referred to "when Hibs would pay fees for established players". Pre-Bosman, fees were required for practically every first team player who didn't come through the club's youth system. Free transfers were pretty rare and were usually for players who were either crap or at the end of their careers (or both). Evene a squad player picked up from a 1st division team would often involve a transfer fee of maybe £30-50k (even when their contract was up).

[jeffers]

I don't remember a lot about him, but there was the joke that John Macdonald wasn't welcome at his funeral in case he dived in the box.

[Keith_M]

No idea about his personality but I do seem to recall a lot of people saying how much he loved the club. He would do almost anything to get one over Hearts, including spend a lot of his own money.

On the downside, he oversaw the deterioration of Easter Road that didn't start to be addressed until Waugh was in charge. The place was, quite frankly, a dump, with the fans on the main terracing still standing in uncovered conditions with little other comforts to speak of, while other clubs were gradually bringing their stadia into the modern era. Not that he was alone in this, as most stadia were a mess, but Easter Road must have been one of (if not the) last stadiums in Scotland to have a roof over its main terrace.

[superfurryhibby]

It should be remembered that it was during the mid-late 70s, ie. toward the end of Hart's tenure, that attendances everywhere plummeted with Hibs and Hearts both regularly playing to home gates of around 5,000 (with entry being a lot cheaper in relative terms than it is now).

The OP also referred to "when Hibs would pay fees for established players". Pre-Bosman, fees were required for practically every first team player who didn't come through the club's youth system. Free transfers were pretty rare and were usually for players who were either crap or at the end of their careers (or both). Evene a squad player picked up from a 1st division team would often involve a transfer fee of maybe £30-50k (even when their contract was up).

Just had a quick look at the crowds of the Hart era. Astonishing differences between minimum and maximum's. The lowest average was in 1979, just under 9,500. The highest was 72-73, just over 16,000. Take your point that entry was cheaper, but I would add that that there was an enormous undeclared element in the gates (Leeds Utd game as a case in point and just about any game v O/F/Hearts).

In terms of fees. Hibs paid relatively small fees for guys like Edwards and Gordon (13,000 and 10,000) and not many more. We did take in big fees for Brownlie, Blackley, Cropley, Smith and Bremner (was Joe Ward involved in Bremner's transfer?).

It would be really interesting to hear more views about this era of Hibs and the role of the owner.

[cmcd]

No idea about his personality but I do seem to recall a lot of people saying how much he loved the club. He would do almost anything to get one over Hearts, including spend a lot of his own money.

On the downside, he oversaw the deterioration of Easter Road that didn't start to be addressed until Waugh was in charge. The place was, quite frankly, a dump, with the fans on the main terracing still standing in uncovered conditions with little other comforts to speak of, while other clubs were gradually bringing their stadia into the modern era. Not that he was alone in this, as most stadia were a mess, but Easter Road must have been one of (if not the) last stadiums in Scotland to have a roof over its main terrace.


Have been looking back at posts from 2010 and found most of them quite interesting Have always thought of Doddie as a sensible poster but have to disagree with his comment about Ian Munro In my opinion Ian was a class player in any position As for Joe Harper I was as pleased as everyone else when he first signed but could never understand why Turnbull broke up the most prolific partnership in Scottish football to accommodate him Again only my opinion but i think ET lost the plot around this time and broke the Tornadoes up far too soon Having read most of the teams autobiography"s they thought if they had stayed together that they would have gone on to greater success

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Selling to Waugh was his biggest mistake IMHO, never trust a bookie, dire days under his tenure.

[Peevemor]

Selling to Waugh was his biggest mistake IMHO, never trust a bookie, dire days under his tenure.

At least he spent a bit of cash reducing and then covering the East terracing. By far the best atmospheres I've experienced at ER were on the standing, covered terracing.

[Keith_M]

At least he spent a bit of cash reducing and then covering the East terracing. By far the best atmospheres I've experienced at ER were on the standing, covered terracing.


:agree:

[Jonnyboy]

Pretty sure Tom Hart was a prime mover in the mid 70's to establish the original ten club Premier League. He thought it would lead to bigger crowds and better competition. It worked to an extent but most clubs were scared of losing and facing relegation as a result.

[mim]

I always found him to be an amiable guy to talk to.

Him and Tommy Younger used to eat/drink regularly at the old Queensway Hotel on the Queensferry Road next to the Stewarts Melville school (no longer there). My mate used to work behind the bar and Tom Hart gave us tickets for the England v Scotland game in 1979.
Late 70s or early 80s, I met him in the Queensway on my way back from an East Fife v Hibs preseason or reserve game. He was surprised that anyone had bothered going and asked how the game went. I told him that the no 10 trialist was outstanding. He said he would tell Bertie (Auld) to get him signed. The trialist was James Brown and he was indeed signed. He turned out to be pish. Oooops.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

At least he spent a bit of cash reducing and then covering the East terracing. By far the best atmospheres I've experienced at ER were on the standing, covered terracing.

Didn't make the team any better anyway, that's what counts is it not?

[Peevemor]

Didn't make the team any better anyway, that's what counts is it not?

Kenny Waugh sold Hibs to Davie Duff in mid August 1997. For our first home match of season 97-98, a 1-0 against Rangers with Alex Miller as manager, Waugh was still owner.

The Hibs starting 11 was

Alan Rough
Callum Milne
Tommy McIntyre
Eddie May
Gordon Rae
Gordon Chisholm
Micky Weir
Paul Kane
Stevie Cowan
Graham Mitchell
John Collins
(Beastie came on as a sub)

from http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/game.php?gameid=77841

Far from the worst team I've seen.

[jdships]

I always found him to be an amiable guy to talk to.

Him and Tommy Younger used to eat/drink regularly at the old Queensway Hotel on the Queensferry Road next to the Stewarts Melville school (no longer there). My mate used to work behind the bar and Tom Hart gave us tickets for the England v Scotland game in 1979.


I knew " Big Tam" quite well and my friends and I used the Queensway regularly.
Tam introduced us to TH and as you rightly say he was very amiable ( especially if the results were good ).
However when the " going got tough" he soon let you know Hibs were HIS club.
He had a big house alongside Raveslton GC with an indoor swimming pool which he allowed the Hibs senior players to use .
Had the odd freebie for games from him .
Got the distinct impression in the months before selling to KW that he had tired of " owning a football club" .
" Hart the Builders" at Macmerry weren't doing so well either .
A difficult man to really assess .

:flag:

[--------]

Have been looking back at posts from 2010 and found most of them quite interesting Have always thought of Doddie as a sensible poster but have to disagree with his comment about Ian Munro In my opinion Ian was a class player in any position As for Joe Harper I was as pleased as everyone else when he first signed but could never understand why Turnbull broke up the most prolific partnership in Scottish football to accommodate him Again only my opinion but i think ET lost the plot around this time and broke the Tornadoes up far too soon Having read most of the teams autobiography"s they thought if they had stayed together that they would have gone on to greater success


Remind me what I said about Iain Munro? IIRC he was brought in as left midfield cover - was Sodjer injured at the time? A broken leg courtesy of Alex Ferguson perhaps? He was nothing like as good as Cropley. Who was? I think he later played at left-back after Shades went - again, no comparison. My opinion, in terms of the team of that time, Munro was a good-quality squad player brought in to provide left-sided cover for Shades, Nijinsky and Sodjer, who would walk into any team in the SPFL today, and most of the EPL as well. I have the idea that perhaps he wasn't the easiest to get on with at times. But it's a long time ago, and I'm probably wrong. Iain wasn't the problem, anyhow. I wish we had some players half as good now.

Hart was a very mixed blessing IMO. He was Hibs daft himself and really wanted the club to do well, but he wasn't too clever at times in regard to how he went about things. He engineered Willie Mac's departure by ordering him not to play Joe McBride against Liverpool. Willie played Joe (as any self-respecting team manager would have) and was gone. Turnbull came in, and (again IMO) we were the poorer for it. I've always thought that Willie MacFarlane was one of the lost opportunities of my time following Hibs, but Willie wouldn't kowtow to anyone, not even Tom Hart, and Hart expected his employees to do just that.

I notice one or two folks saying the "kinda liked him" - I don't think they would be saying that if they'd worked for him on one of his building sites. A couple of my mates worked for him on the Lochend high flats and reckoned that on site he was a foul-mouthed bully.

Moreover, while I don't enjoy speaking ill of the dead (well, I actually do enjoy it, sometimes!) I lived in a house Hart built in Wester Hailes for the first seven years of my married life. The houses LOOKED all right, but there came a time when all the chickens came home to roost at once.


The harling fell off - not enough concrete, too much sand. Concrete cost a lot more than sand, and the council were paying.
Cement slabs started falling off the tops of the vents for the central heating - not properly secured - cement and steel securing pins cost money - and the council were paying.
The screens on the drying areas in the flats had to be removed - they were supposed to be fireproof, but they were actually made of a much cheaper, highly flammable plastic that when it caught fire gave off fumes as toxic as Zyklon-B. The council were paying.
The pipe-boxes for the internal downpipes had to be opened up and metal collars put on the pipes at each floor-level - this was supposed to have been done when the houses were built but they cost too much so Hart's just left them out. They had charged the council for them, though. And the council had paid up, for non-existent collars on every downpipe in every flat in Murrayburn, Dumbryden, Hailesland, Clovenstone ....

It was all stuff that should have been done, that Hart said had been done, that Hart had charged the council for doing, but that had never been done. And please nobody say that TH didn't know what was going on - nobody would have dared to skin the council on a Hart project without cutting him in - they'd have ended up buried in the foundations if they'd tried. In 4 words - Tom Hart was a crook.

Of course, he wasn't alone. Those were the days of the cowboy builders screwing local authorities right, left and centre - people like John Poulsen ending up in jail for corruption and fraud, Reggie Maudling falling on his sword and only avoiding porridge because he was an MP. Hart was just one more like the rest. I have the definite feeling that the Fraud Squad had been sniffing around TH for a wee while just before he died - maybe he dropped off the twig just in time to avoid a jail sentence.

(Mind you, if he'd built the jail himself, he could have just kicked a hole in the wall and walked out a free man. Quality and sturdiness of construction were not words he was familiar with, at all. :devil: )


In the long run, he wasn't good for Hibs. Even talking about him paying big fees for players - the fees I remember from his time are £10,000 for Alan Gordon, £13,000 for Alex Edwards, £10,000 for Jim Herriot, and I can't remember what we paid for Des Bremner. I don't think the club ever said. The big fees I recall were around £35,000 for Iain Munro, who was a better player than I thought he was, no doubt, and of course the then club record fee of £140,000 quid (count it!) for the Wee Fat Cowardly Lardass Harper. We did pay a fee for Jim McArthur, but I don't think it qualified as a 'big' fee; I'm quite happy to be corrected on that, because I just can't remember.

As far as those who look back on Hart's time as the good old days, bear in mind that this was the period we signed superstars like Joe Ward, Alec Scott, Graeme Fyfe and others even worse (seriously!). Benny Brazil was a "star of the future" according to Turnbull - "the next Pat Stanton". Yes, he actually said that. I've never been able to take Turnbull seriously as a football manager since the Saturday I read that in his program notes.

When Tom Hart died, he left the club in serious financial disarray, and it took us years to recover - if in fact we really have recovered. We look pretty sick and dysfunctional to me right now.

[Tom Hart RIP]

I chose the name Tom Hart RIP as a protest against the number of paid directors we had at the club ie Hyland and Lindsay who IMO were taking much more than they were contributing.
I have no idea about Tom Harts building work but understand that he was a stubborn so and so who expected things to be done his way.
I met ET a number of times and he used to talk about his many fights with him. I can't believe that he would have allowed TH to pick his teams.
Several of the ex players I've met, Jimmy Orourke, Jackie Mac and others had a lot of time for Hart.
Although it turned out to be a disaster signing Joe Harper was ambitious. Imagine us breaking the scottish transfer records these days?
I accept it turned out badly in the end with relegation etc.

[Ray_]

I always found him to be an amiable guy to talk to.

Him and Tommy Younger used to eat/drink regularly at the old Queensway Hotel on the Queensferry Road next to the Stewarts Melville school (no longer there). My mate used to work behind the bar and Tom Hart gave us tickets for the England v Scotland game in 1979.

I was one of the many thousands that got in to that game without a ticket :).

[Jack]

Do we have a list of all the club owners somewhere?

[Ray_]

Doddie,
Iain Munro was without doubt a good player & I'm sure he won several Scottish caps at a time when they were far more difficult to get than recent years. Jim McArthur's fee was reported at the time to be around £8K.

Willie Mac, particularly his first season, we played some terrific stuff and that wonderful win at Ibrox in 69, however, we were already on the slide when the goal less NY derby at the start of the seventies, coincided with Peter Marinello's exit from ER and three days after a two goal immaculate performance by Peter Cormack, in the 4-1 win against St Johnstone, Peter Cormack was also on his way down South which came four month after his buddy had moved to Arsenal.

After the initial start, Willie Mac's Hibs performed like Hibs of that time, absolutely superb in beating Celtic with two Joe McBride goals at ER, in the first game after Tom Hart came on board and absolutely pitiful in a game at Shawfield before the Xmas time Liverpool fairs cup tie.
Three of my worst Hibs moments came under Willie Mac, losing Marinello & Cormack, which he had no accountability for and the signing of Jim Blair, for what then was a huge amount of money, £45k, we recouped 18k twelve months later, when he rejoined St Mirren, he also made inspirational and significant signings such as Nijinsky & Shades.

I was sorry to see Willie Mac go but things didn’t change a lot when Dave Ewing took charge, we were always going to miss Joe McBride’s goals, after the fracas with Tom Hart in dropping him & we struggled in that department for the short interval until the late January signing of Joe Baker and the typical Hibs up and down performances continued with a Joe getting a debut goal in the 2-1 win against Eddie Turnbull’s outstanding Aberdeen side.

Dave Ewing’s half season went very much the same way as the first half of the season, under Willie Mac, the game following Joe Baker’s comeback debut, he was sent off in Paisley in a 3-1 defeat. Hibs performances were no more and no less as sporadic and inconsistent as they had been with Willie Mac that season and the high points saw us reach and bravely lose a cup semi replay [1-2] with Rangers at Hamden.

To me the most significant event of that season was the return from injury of the then youngster, Alex Cropley and the emergence of Arthur Duncan and John Brownlie making the RB spot his own and some, as he was invited to join the much depleted Scotland side in an end of season friendly in Russia.

It was in another end of season friendly match that Alex Cropley stole the show, he had been immense in the semi replay against Rangers, but was fantastic in Hibs romping success against MVV Maastricht, which saw out season 70-71. With ET now installed, AC quickly became the hottest property in Scottish football [ahead of Kenny Dalglish], as his left wing exploits tore away the opposition in the league cup section ties and fee’s of £200k were being spoken of, the British record at that time was Alan Ball’s £220k move from Everton to Arsenal.
Alex Cropley never wanted to leave Hibs and him being sold when he did was fall out after the gamble in buying Harper to take Hibs to the next level failed and this proved to be a serious mistake, although his replacement, Ally McLeod became the talisman for the fans during the latter part of that decade.

Another serious mistake that TH made was his loyalty to ET, who’s stubbornness began to have serious consequences for the club. This was never better illustrated than in the mid-seventies game at Annfield, with Pat Stanton on the bench, John Toshack’s ariel prowess and his tie winning hat-trick.

ET’s visionary signings had also left him and at the time I was praying that TH would make moves to sign the now available Alex Ferguson, who had been so successful at East Stirling and more particular, St Mirren. Alas it wasn’t to be and history tells us the rest.
To be fair, the money taken through the gates at the start of the seventies, when Hart came on board, was around 25-30p for an adult and little money would have been available for ground improvements at that time.

Without doubt, his decisions on shirt sponsorship and undersoil heating was revolutionary in the Scottish game, I’m sure there was only one other British club had the heating installed before Hibs and I remember Manchester United coming up at late notice just to get a game, during a spell of particularly rough weather.

And of course Tom Hart gave us George Best, as a youngster who first followed football in the mid-sixties, I and everybody else for that matter, would have considered anyone a total “nut job” if they had turned around and said that GB would one day turn out for Hibs. Well, thanks to TH, it happened, when they go on about British football legends of today, nobody in the British Isle’s has ever been as good as the Belfast Boy, David Beckham that kinda puts it in to perspective.

All in all I think Tom Hart was very good for Hibs and that goes for ET too, despite the stuff I wrote on here about the latter part of ET’s reign. The thing about Hibs, we have never, ever been infallible, the East Fife game on the 8th of January 1973 and the fact the famous five weren’t able to change 1902 are testimony enough to that.

All IMHO and under the conditions attached with being from the memory of an old fart!

[Peevemor]

Fantastic post Ray. Cheers for that.

[FranckSuzy]

Kenny Waugh sold Hibs to Davie Duff in mid August 1987. For our first home match of season 87-88, a 1-0 against Rangers with Alex Miller as manager, Waugh was still owner.

The Hibs starting 11 was

Alan Rough
Callum Milne
Tommy McIntyre
Eddie May
Gordon Rae
Gordon Chisholm
Micky Weir
Paul Kane
Stevie Cowan
Graham Mitchell
John Collins
(Beastie came on as a sub)

from http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/game.php?gameid=77841

Far from the worst team I've seen.

Fixed that for you :wink:

[Peevemor]

Fixed that for you :wink:

Thank goodness. At least someone is paying attention.

[Kaiser1962]

Doddie,
Iain Munro was without doubt a good player & I'm sure he won several Scottish caps at a time when they were far more difficult to get than recent years. Jim McArthur's fee was reported at the time to be around £8K.

Willie Mac, particularly his first season, we played some terrific stuff and that wonderful win at Ibrox in 69, however, we were already on the slide when the goal less NY derby at the start of the seventies, coincided with Peter Marinello's exit from ER and three days after a two goal immaculate performance by Peter Cormack, in the 4-1 win against St Johnstone, Peter Cormack was also on his way down South which came four month after his buddy had moved to Arsenal.

After the initial start, Willie Mac's Hibs performed like Hibs of that time, absolutely superb in beating Celtic with two Joe McBride goals at ER, in the first game after Tom Hart came on board and absolutely pitiful in a game at Shawfield before the Xmas time Liverpool fairs cup tie.
Three of my worst Hibs moments came under Willie Mac, losing Marinello & Cormack, which he had no accountability for and the signing of Jim Blair, for what then was a huge amount of money, £45k, we recouped 18k twelve months later, when he rejoined St Mirren, he also made inspirational and significant signings such as Nijinsky & Shades.

I was sorry to see Willie Mac go but things didn’t change a lot when Dave Ewing took charge, we were always going to miss Joe McBride’s goals, after the fracas with Tom Hart in dropping him & we struggled in that department for the short interval until the late January signing of Joe Baker and the typical Hibs up and down performances continued with a Joe getting a debut goal in the 2-1 win against Eddie Turnbull’s outstanding Aberdeen side.

Dave Ewing’s half season went very much the same way as the first half of the season, under Willie Mac, the game following Joe Baker’s comeback debut, he was sent off in Paisley in a 3-1 defeat. Hibs performances were no more and no less as sporadic and inconsistent as they had been with Willie Mac that season and the high points saw us reach and bravely lose a cup semi replay [1-2] with Rangers at Hamden.

To me the most significant event of that season was the return from injury of the then youngster, Alex Cropley and the emergence of Arthur Duncan and John Brownlie making the RB spot his own and some, as he was invited to join the much depleted Scotland side in an end of season friendly in Russia.

It was in another end of season friendly match that Alex Cropley stole the show, he had been immense in the semi replay against Rangers, but was fantastic in Hibs romping success against MVV Maastricht, which saw out season 70-71. With ET now installed, AC quickly became the hottest property in Scottish football [ahead of Kenny Dalglish], as his left wing exploits tore away the opposition in the league cup section ties and fee’s of £200k were being spoken of, the British record at that time was Alan Ball’s £220k move from Everton to Arsenal.
Alex Cropley never wanted to leave Hibs and him being sold when he did was fall out after the gamble in buying Harper to take Hibs to the next level failed and this proved to be a serious mistake, although his replacement, Ally McLeod became the talisman for the fans during the latter part of that decade.

Another serious mistake that TH made was his loyalty to ET, who’s stubbornness began to have serious consequences for the club. This was never better illustrated than in the mid-seventies game at Annfield, with Pat Stanton on the bench, John Toshack’s ariel prowess and his tie winning hat-trick.

ET’s visionary signings had also left him and at the time I was praying that TH would make moves to sign the now available Alex Ferguson, who had been so successful at East Stirling and more particular, St Mirren. Alas it wasn’t to be and history tells us the rest.
To be fair, the money taken through the gates at the start of the seventies, when Hart came on board, was around 25-30p for an adult and little money would have been available for ground improvements at that time.

Without doubt, his decisions on shirt sponsorship and undersoil heating was revolutionary in the Scottish game, I’m sure there was only one other British club had the heating installed before Hibs and I remember Manchester United coming up at late notice just to get a game, during a spell of particularly rough weather.

And of course Tom Hart gave us George Best, as a youngster who first followed football in the mid-sixties, I and everybody else for that matter, would have considered anyone a total “nut job” if they had turned around and said that GB would one day turn out for Hibs. Well, thanks to TH, it happened, when they go on about British football legends of today, nobody in the British Isle’s has ever been as good as the Belfast Boy, David Beckham that kinda puts it in to perspective.

All in all I think Tom Hart was very good for Hibs and that goes for ET too, despite the stuff I wrote on here about the latter part of ET’s reign. The thing about Hibs, we have never, ever been infallible, the East Fife game on the 8th of January 1973 and the fact the famous five weren’t able to change 1902 are testimony enough to that.

All IMHO and under the conditions attached with being from the memory of an old fart!


Good post Ray, enjoyed reading that.

On the subject of George, to bring a sense of perspective for the young uns, he was paid an unheard of amount of £1500 per week at the time which equates to a weekly wage of just under £6,500 when adjusted. Rooney for £300k or Best for £6,500? Tricky one.

[FranckSuzy]

Thank goodness. At least someone is paying attention.

:greengrin I only noticed as I was living in Oz in '97 so I knew it couldn't have been then. Prior to that I also spoke to KW Snr and Jnr all the time in the Centre Court :wink:

[cmcd]

Doddie You said back in 2010 that Ian Munro and Joe Harper were a waste of money In my opinion IM was a good pro who could play anywhere on the left He was also an international As for JH I have made my feelings clear previously WHY did Turnbull break up the most prolific partnership in scottish football ????

[Keith_M]

Pretty sure Tom Hart was a prime mover in the mid 70's to establish the original ten club Premier League. He thought it would lead to bigger crowds and better competition. It worked to an extent but most clubs were scared of losing and facing relegation as a result.

It's funny, because I always thought of the establishment of the PL as the point when crowds started to decrease.

I suppose I haven't looked at the overall figures though, but I'm sure attendances at the Edinburgh Derby halved in less than a decade. We went from crowds of 30-35,000 in the early 70's to crowds of around 17,000 by about 77/78.

-----------------------------
On a side note, here's something for our younger readers that have never known an extended period of Hibs dominance in the derby. These are the results for a 15 year period, from 1965 to 1979 (inclusive). This only ended when the financial doping started under Wallace Mercer.

(attendances at right) - Wins: Hibs 17; Hearts 4.





01–01–1965
Hearts
0 – 1
36,297


18–09–1965
Hearts
0 – 4
22,369


01–01–1966
Hibs
2 – 3
32,192


10–09–1966
Hibs
3 – 1
21,395


02–01–1967
Hearts
0 – 0
30,086


09–09–1967
Hearts
1 – 4
20,773


01–01–1968
Hibs
1 – 0
32,360


07–09–1968
Hibs
1 – 3
24,110


01–01–1969
Hearts
0 – 0
30,011


27–09–1969
Hearts
0 – 2
26,807


01–01–1970
Hibs
0 – 0
36,421


05–09–1970
Hibs
0 – 0
23,225


01–01–1971
Hearts
0 – 0
27,715


04–09–1971
Hearts
0 – 2
26,671


01–01–1972
Hibs
0 – 0
36,046


09–09–1972
Hibs
2 – 0
21,221


01–01–1973
Hearts
0 – 7
35,989


08–09–1973
Hearts
4 – 1
28,946


01–01–1974
Hibs
3 – 1
35,393


07–09–1974
Hibs
2 – 1
26,560


01–01–1975
Hearts
0 – 0
35,969


30–08–1975
Hibs
1 – 0
23,646


01–11–1975
Hearts
1 – 1
24,471


01–01–1976
Hibs
3 – 0
32,923


13–03–1976
Hearts
0 – 1
18,528


30–10–1976
Hibs
1 – 1
23,773


26–01–1977
Hearts
0 – 1
24,068


23–03–1977
Hibs
3 – 1
13,625


13–04–1977
Hearts
2 – 2
10,686


26–08–1978
Hearts
1 – 1
19,663


04–11–1978
Hibs
1 – 2
20,120


17–03–1979
Hibs
1 – 1
13,297


28–03–1979
Hearts
1 – 2
16,042

[brog]

Ray's post is excellent & wonderfully factual. My Dad & TH were close friends & I was fortunate enough to have had the pleasure of TH's company on many occasions. There is no doubt that Tom could be irascible & perhaps a tad controlling but he did wonderful work on behalf of Hibs. There's another thread on here as to what is needed to make Hibs a great club. TH, certainly in his early years did everything possible to achieve that ambition. He started with the players, ensuring they were well rewarded in all ways, including pay, bonuses, food & clothing. Look at some of the pics from the Tornadoes era & see the players in their club suits. Tom also challenged the Scottish football establishment on many occasions & stood up for our club in a way that no one has done since. I'm a bit rushed just now so some specific stories later. There's some things I can't share on here but re ET I can tell you Toms ambition was to make him the first ever Manager/Director in British football & to appoint/anoint his own successor. Ned being so stubborn saw this as a snub, & relationships & results deteriorated after that with the inevitable conclusion.
I wish we had Tom Hart now.

[Phil D. Rolls]

It's funny, because I always thought of the establishment of the PL as the point when crowds started to decrease.

I suppose I haven't looked at the overall figures though, but I'm sure attendances at the Edinburgh Derby halved in less than a decade. We went from crowds of 30-35,000 in the early 70's to crowds of around 17,000 by about 77/78.

-----------------------------
On a side note, here's something for our younger readers that have never known an extended period of Hibs dominance in the derby. These are the results for a 15 year period, from 1965 to 1979 (inclusive). This only ended when the financial doping started under Wallace Mercer.

(attendances at right) - Wins: Hibs 17; Hearts 4.





01–01–1965
Hearts
0 – 1
36,297


18–09–1965
Hearts
0 – 4
22,369


01–01–1966
Hibs
2 – 3
32,192


10–09–1966
Hibs
3 – 1
21,395


02–01–1967
Hearts
0 – 0
30,086


09–09–1967
Hearts
1 – 4
20,773


01–01–1968
Hibs
1 – 0
32,360


07–09–1968
Hibs
1 – 3
24,110


01–01–1969
Hearts
0 – 0
30,011


27–09–1969
Hearts
0 – 2
26,807


01–01–1970
Hibs
0 – 0
36,421


05–09–1970
Hibs
0 – 0
23,225


01–01–1971
Hearts
0 – 0
27,715


04–09–1971
Hearts
0 – 2
26,671


01–01–1972
Hibs
0 – 0
36,046


09–09–1972
Hibs
2 – 0
21,221


01–01–1973
Hearts
0 – 7
35,989


08–09–1973
Hearts
4 – 1
28,946


01–01–1974
Hibs
3 – 1
35,393


07–09–1974
Hibs
2 – 1
26,560


01–01–1975
Hearts
0 – 0
35,969


30–08–1975
Hibs
1 – 0
23,646


01–11–1975
Hearts
1 – 1
24,471


01–01–1976
Hibs
3 – 0
32,923


13–03–1976
Hearts
0 – 1
18,528


30–10–1976
Hibs
1 – 1
23,773


26–01–1977
Hearts
0 – 1
24,068


23–03–1977
Hibs
3 – 1
13,625


13–04–1977
Hearts
2 – 2
10,686


26–08–1978
Hearts
1 – 1
19,663


04–11–1978
Hibs
1 – 2
20,120


17–03–1979
Hibs
1 – 1
13,297


28–03–1979
Hearts
1 – 2
16,042



I might be wrong, but the capacity of the ground was cut drastically due to new safety laws in the mid 70s. In addition, all day pub opening (1976?) maybe had an impact. People just found new things to do as the 70s progressed.

[Kato]

I've always thought that Willie MacFarlane was one of the lost opportunities of my time following Hibs, but Willie wouldn't kowtow to anyone, not even Tom Hart, and Hart expected his employees to do just that.


That sounds like revisionism at best. Willie MacFarlane, like many managers at the time, was a well meaning amateur. Working as Hibs manager just as modern tactics were coming would have seen a repeat of the mid-60's, quite entertaining but zero consistency.

[greenginger]

Remind me what I said about Iain Munro? IIRC he was brought in as left midfield cover - was Sodjer injured at the time? A broken leg courtesy of Alex Ferguson perhaps? He was nothing like as good as Cropley. Who was? I think he later played at left-back after Shades went - again, no comparison. My opinion, in terms of the team of that time, Munro was a good-quality squad player brought in to provide left-sided cover for Shades, Nijinsky and Sodjer, who would walk into any team in the SPFL today, and most of the EPL as well. I have the idea that perhaps he wasn't the easiest to get on with at times. But it's a long time ago, and I'm probably wrong. Iain wasn't the problem, anyhow. I wish we had some players half as good now.

Hart was a very mixed blessing IMO. He was Hibs daft himself and really wanted the club to do well, but he wasn't too clever at times in regard to how he went about things. He engineered Willie Mac's departure by ordering him not to play Joe McBride against Liverpool. Willie played Joe (as any self-respecting team manager would have) and was gone. Turnbull came in, and (again IMO) we were the poorer for it. I've always thought that Willie MacFarlane was one of the lost opportunities of my time following Hibs, but Willie wouldn't kowtow to anyone, not even Tom Hart, and Hart expected his employees to do just that.

I notice one or two folks saying the "kinda liked him" - I don't think they would be saying that if they'd worked for him on one of his building sites. A couple of my mates worked for him on the Lochend high flats and reckoned that on site he was a foul-mouthed bully.

Moreover, while I don't enjoy speaking ill of the dead (well, I actually do enjoy it, sometimes!) I lived in a house Hart built in Wester Hailes for the first seven years of my married life. The houses LOOKED all right, but there came a time when all the chickens came home to roost at once.


The harling fell off - not enough concrete, too much sand. Concrete cost a lot more than sand, and the council were paying.
Cement slabs started falling off the tops of the vents for the central heating - not properly secured - cement and steel securing pins cost money - and the council were paying.
The screens on the drying areas in the flats had to be removed - they were supposed to be fireproof, but they were actually made of a much cheaper, highly flammable plastic that when it caught fire gave off fumes as toxic as Zyklon-B. The council were paying.
The pipe-boxes for the internal downpipes had to be opened up and metal collars put on the pipes at each floor-level - this was supposed to have been done when the houses were built but they cost too much so Hart's just left them out. They had charged the council for them, though. And the council had paid up, for non-existent collars on every downpipe in every flat in Murrayburn, Dumbryden, Hailesland, Clovenstone ....

It was all stuff that should have been done, that Hart said had been done, that Hart had charged the council for doing, but that had never been done. And please nobody say that TH didn't know what was going on - nobody would have dared to skin the council on a Hart project without cutting him in - they'd have ended up buried in the foundations if they'd tried. In 4 words - Tom Hart was a crook.

Of course, he wasn't alone. Those were the days of the cowboy builders screwing local authorities right, left and centre - people like John Poulsen ending up in jail for corruption and fraud, Reggie Maudling falling on his sword and only avoiding porridge because he was an MP. Hart was just one more like the rest. I have the definite feeling that the Fraud Squad had been sniffing around TH for a wee while just before he died - maybe he dropped off the twig just in time to avoid a jail sentence.

(Mind you, if he'd built the jail himself, he could have just kicked a hole in the wall and walked out a free man. Quality and sturdiness of construction were not words he was familiar with, at all. :devil: )


In the long run, he wasn't good for Hibs. Even talking about him paying big fees for players - the fees I remember from his time are £10,000 for Alan Gordon, £13,000 for Alex Edwards, £10,000 for Jim Herriot, and I can't remember what we paid for Des Bremner. I don't think the club ever said. The big fees I recall were around £35,000 for Iain Munro, who was a better player than I thought he was, no doubt, and of course the then club record fee of £140,000 quid (count it!) for the Wee Fat Cowardly Lardass Harper. We did pay a fee for Jim McArthur, but I don't think it qualified as a 'big' fee; I'm quite happy to be corrected on that, because I just can't remember.

As far as those who look back on Hart's time as the good old days, bear in mind that this was the period we signed superstars like Joe Ward, Alec Scott, Graeme Fyfe and others even worse (seriously!). Benny Brazil was a "star of the future" according to Turnbull - "the next Pat Stanton". Yes, he actually said that. I've never been able to take Turnbull seriously as a football manager since the Saturday I read that in his program notes.

When Tom Hart died, he left the club in serious financial disarray, and it took us years to recover - if in fact we really have recovered. We look pretty sick and dysfunctional to me right now.


Doddie , you don't half spout some crap when it comes to Tom Hart and Council House building contracts.

I worked as a quantity surveyor on many council house schemes in the late 60's and all through the 70's with varioius contractors , Smart , Harrison, Hart so I think i should set the record straight.

The missing pipe collars for PVC down pipes are a figment of your imagination. The Wester Hailes developments you mention would be built in the early 70's. Pipe collars for fire protection were not in use then and fireproof duct boarding was supposed to be the method of fire protection. The original drawings for the schemes are still lodged at the city plan store if you want to check.

Tom Hart was supposed to have bullied workers on the Lochend High Flats contracts. Impossible, Hart Builders never built those flats, it was Wimpey or Laidlaw but don't let that detail interfere with your rant.

The fraud squad was investigating Hart just before he died ? You really do need some sort of help Doddie. Hart Builders was a Stock Exchange listed company in the early 70's with 6 or more directors including Hart. Do you think investigations would be dropped because one director died, of course not they, would have continued into the Company and other directors. They did'nt because there never was any investigation apart from in your own mind.

Tom Hart sold his majority share holding in Hart Builders to Crudens in 1973 and retired from the building industry. The company continues to trade today under the same name today.

As for leaving the Football Club in dire financial state, I think the overdraft was about £ 40,000 and the team had finished 5th in the Premier League.

One bit of good news Doddie, you can't get sued for slandering a person who is already dead, so feel free to continue to call Mr Hart a crook if you like, but try and get at least some of the background facts right as you just make yourself look like a right bitter fool.

[IWasThere2016]

My Dad worked for Tom Hart and doesn't recognise some of the jobs Doddie referred to either..

[greenpaper55]

I couldnae care what houses Tom Hart built but i know he built the best team that i ever saw wearing the green, folk might slag him on here but i don't think he would be putting up with the garbage served up as football today.

[hhibs]

Have been looking back at posts from 2010 and found most of them quite interesting Have always thought of Doddie as a sensible poster but have to disagree with his comment about Ian Munro In my opinion Ian was a class player in any position As for Joe Harper I was as pleased as everyone else when he first signed but could never understand why Turnbull broke up the most prolific partnership in Scottish football to accommodate him Again only my opinion but i think ET lost the plot around this time and broke the Tornadoes up far too soon Having read most of the teams autobiography"s they thought if they had stayed together that they would have gone on to greater success

Yep,agree with that,in particular the sales of Gordon and O'Rourke for what was not a lot of money at that time.
It was not Joe Harper fault but a lot of us at the time did think so.
No idea what Turnbull was thinking of at that time to sanction it.

[Kato]

Doddie , you don't half spout some crap when it comes to Tom Hart and Council House building contracts.

I worked as a quantity surveyor on many council house schemes in the late 60's and all through the 70's with varioius contractors , Smart , Harrison, Hart so I think i should set the record straight.

The missing pipe collars for PVC down pipes are a figment of your imagination. The Wester Hailes developments you mention would be built in the early 70's. Pipe collars for fire protection were not in use then and fireproof duct boarding was supposed to be the method of fire protection. The original drawings for the schemes are still lodged at the city plan store if you want to check.

Tom Hart was supposed to have bullied workers on the Lochend High Flats contracts. Impossible, Hart Builders never built those flats, it was Wimpey or Laidlaw but don't let that detail interfere with your rant.

The fraud squad was investigating Hart just before he died ? You really do need some sort of help Doddie. Hart Builders was a Stock Exchange listed company in the early 70's with 6 or more directors including Hart. Do you think investigations would be dropped because one director died, of course not they, would have continued into the Company and other directors. They did'nt because there never was any investigation apart from in your own mind.

Tom Hart sold his majority share holding in Hart Builders to Crudens in 1973 and retired from the building industry. The company continues to trade today under the same name today.

As for leaving the Football Club in dire financial state, I think the overdraft was about £ 40,000 and the team had finished 5th in the Premier League.

One bit of good news Doddie, you can't get sued for slandering a person who is already dead, so feel free to continue to call Mr Hart a crook if you like, but try and get at least some of the background facts right as you just make yourself look like a right bitter fool.


The only scandal I've ever heard about the building of Wester Hailes was at when the project was at the funding stage. The original plans, still in the council, had a boulevard style road running right through shown as all shopping which was to be named New Princes St. The money was given but New Princes St disappeared from the plans during the building. The involved another dead builder though, not TH.

[Bearders]

I couldnae care what houses Tom Hart built but i know he built the best team that i ever saw wearing the green, folk might slag him on here but i don't think he would be putting up with the garbage served up as football today.

Agreed Greenpaper. In those days we were one of the big 4. We are now a bottom 6 outfit from team performance to Board ambition, not that we ever get told why that might be.

[jdships]

Doddie , you don't half spout some crap when it comes to Tom Hart and Council House building contracts.

I worked as a quantity surveyor on many council house schemes in the late 60's and all through the 70's with varioius contractors , Smart , Harrison, Hart so I think i should set the record straight.

The missing pipe collars for PVC down pipes are a figment of your imagination. The Wester Hailes developments you mention would be built in the early 70's. Pipe collars for fire protection were not in use then and fireproof duct boarding was supposed to be the method of fire protection. The original drawings for the schemes are still lodged at the city plan store if you want to check.

Tom Hart was supposed to have bullied workers on the Lochend High Flats contracts. Impossible, Hart Builders never built those flats, it was Wimpey or Laidlaw but don't let that detail interfere with your rant.

The fraud squad was investigating Hart just before he died ? You really do need some sort of help Doddie. Hart Builders was a Stock Exchange listed company in the early 70's with 6 or more directors including Hart. Do you think investigations would be dropped because one director died, of course not they, would have continued into the Company and other directors. They did'nt because there never was any investigation apart from in your own mind.

Tom Hart sold his majority share holding in Hart Builders to Crudens in 1973 and retired from the building industry. The company continues to trade today under the same name today.

As for leaving the Football Club in dire financial state, I think the overdraft was about £ 40,000 and the team had finished 5th in the Premier League.

One bit of good news Doddie, you can't get sued for slandering a person who is already dead, so feel free to continue to call Mr Hart a crook if you like, but try and get at least some of the background facts right as you just make yourself look like a right bitter fool.



Thank you for putting the record straight :thumbsup:!
I can endorse your views on the two highlighted para's.
My neighbour at that time was a manager with Hart and never mentioned being involved at Lochend ( he was a Hibby)
A relative of mine was then working for Hart's auditor's ( another Hibbee) and never spoke of any investigation of Mr Hart's affairs.
Through my friendship with Tam Younger I got to know Tom Hart quite well and while he was very much his own man and didn't suffer fools gladly , he was dedicated to seeing Hibs become and hopefully remain a force in Scottish football
He ticked more positive boxes than negative I can assure you

[rcarter1]

He was never afraid to say what he thought. His response to an article in the media stating that Scottish football needed more Celtic and Rangers fans was..... "Scottish football needs more Celtic and Rangers fans like Custer needed more Indians". Good answer

:faf:

Thank you for my first hubs.net smile in a good wee while!

Also, thanks to everyones contributions about an era I never knew. :not worth

[h1bs4life]

I couldnae care what houses Tom Hart built but i know he built the best team that i ever saw wearing the green, folk might slag him on here but i don't think he would be putting up with the garbage served up as football today.

Agree 100% mate , that was the team i grew up with.Tom Hart had a dislike for the old firm , sure he banned the cameras from Easter Road on the day Celtic won the league , he also gave us George Best. Although towards the end of his reign I can remember as a spotty teenager taking part in a few Hart must go demonstrations at the back of the stand.

[superfurryhibby]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19820310&id=8v89AAAAIBAJ&sjid=fkkMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3015,2802732

Not sure if this link will work. It's a feature from the Glasgow Herald after Tom Hart died

[JimBHibees]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19820310&id=8v89AAAAIBAJ&sjid=fkkMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3015,2802732

Not sure if this link will work. It's a feature from the Glasgow Herald after Tom Hart died

Interesting article on many levels including James Traynor proving he can actually right some long words without mentioning Rangers, the fact that Hibs had bought Easter Road from Edinburgh District Council in 1981, I had no idea about that at all (wonder if a similar thing happened to Hearts or whether the Council still own the ground :greengrin) and the huge impact Tom Hart obviously made at the club. I don think we could do with that sort of large character in control of the club who isnt afraid to ruffle a few feathers either within the club or outwith. To me we are very much seen as a joke of a club and that anyone can have a pop without anyone at the club putting them in their place.

[superfurryhibby]

Interesting article on many levels including James Traynor proving he can actually right some long words without mentioning Rangers, the fact that Hibs had bought Easter Road from Edinburgh District Council in 1981, I had no idea about that at all (wonder if a similar thing happened to Hearts or whether the Council still own the ground :greengrin) and the huge impact Tom Hart obviously made at the club. I don think we could do with that sort of large character in control of the club who isnt afraid to ruffle a few feathers either within the club or outwith. To me we are very much seen as a joke of a club and that anyone can have a pop without anyone at the club putting them in their place.

Yes, that was an intriguing reference, the part about buying the ground. I wonder what it refers to (perhaps something around Fue duties or some other archaic matter around owning the ground the premises sit on) ?

Totally agree with the part about ownership and a strong hand on the tiller. I think we need direction and a hands on leader (with the obvious proviso that they have the clubs best interests at heart). The history of failed managerial appointments over the past eight or so years says we lack in this department.

[Kato]

(wonder if a similar thing happened to Hearts

It did.






To me we are very much seen as a joke of a club and that anyone can have a pop without anyone at the club putting them in their place.

No one stands up to those who want to do down Hibs.

[147lothian]

I chose the name Tom Hart RIP as a protest against the number of paid directors we had at the club ie Hyland and Lindsay who IMO were taking much more than they were contributing.
I have no idea about Tom Harts building work but understand that he was a stubborn so and so who expected things to be done his way.
I met ET a number of times and he used to talk about his many fights with him. I can't believe that he would have allowed TH to pick his teams.
Several of the ex players I've met, Jimmy Orourke, Jackie Mac and others had a lot of time for Hart.
Although it turned out to be a disaster signing Joe Harper was ambitious. Imagine us breaking the scottish transfer records these days?
I accept it turned out badly in the end with relegation etc.

I take my hat off to you for your username, of course, you had owners of clubs right across the board back then as you do now who get involved in team selection, and as for signing players its their money that the manager is using but for all that Hart was still a Hibs man who cared about the the club. Compare that to our current owner who bought the club, for a knock down price and with it got the land, then sold the land for something in the region of 2 million, if that was Hart that 2 million would have went back to the manager for the playing squad

[IWasThere2016]

I couldnae care what houses Tom Hart built but i know he built the best team that i ever saw wearing the green, folk might slag him on here but i don't think he would be putting up with the garbage served up as football today.

HALLEJUAH BROTHER!!! :flag:

[CropleyWasGod]

I take my hat off to you for your username, of course, you had owners of clubs right across the board back then as you do now who get involved in team selection, and as for signing players its their money that the manager is using but for all that Hart was still a Hibs man who cared about the the club. Compare that to our current owner who bought the club, for a knock down price and with it got the land, then sold the land for something in the region of 2 million, if that was Hart that 2 million would have went back to the manager for the playing squad

:rolleyes:

[Peevemor]

I take my hat off to you for your username, of course, you had owners of clubs right across the board back then as you do now who get involved in team selection, and as for signing players its their money that the manager is using but for all that Hart was still a Hibs man who cared about the the club. Compare that to our current owner who bought the club, for a knock down price and with it got the land, then sold the land for something in the region of 2 million, if that was Hart that 2 million would have went back to the manager for the playing squad

Wow! You really don't have a clue do you?

[greenginger]

Yes, that was an intriguing reference, the part about buying the ground. I wonder what it refers to (perhaps something around Fue duties or some other archaic matter around owning the ground the premises sit on) ?

Totally agree with the part about ownership and a strong hand on the tiller. I think we need direction and a hands on leader (with the obvious proviso that they have the clubs best interests at heart). The history of failed managerial appointments over the past eight or so years says we lack in this department.


It was not exactly a feu duty matter but a restriction on the use the stadium ground could be used for.

The original part of the ground was purchased from the Trinity Hospital Trust ( the City Council were the trustees ) for £5000 and the title contained the condition that should the ground not be used for sport it had to be sold back to the Trust for £5000.
I think it cost in the region of £ 10,000 to buy out this restriction on the title.
The car park and extra ground that was needed for the high terrace extension was bought from the Redpath Brown the steel fabricators and did not have any title restrictions.

[greenpaper55]

It was not exactly a feu duty matter but a restriction on the use the stadium ground could be used for.

The original part of the ground was purchased from the Trinity Hospital Trust ( the City Council were the trustees ) for £5000 and the title contained the condition that should the ground not be used for sport it had to be sold back to the Trust for £5000.
I think it cost in the region of £ 10,000 to buy out this restriction on the title.
The car park and extra ground that was needed for the high terrace extension was bought from the Redpath Brown the steel fabricators and did not have any title restrictions.

I like the bit about the ground has to be used for sport , somebody should tell that to Sir Tom !.

[superfurryhibby]

It was not exactly a feu duty matter but a restriction on the use the stadium ground could be used for.

The original part of the ground was purchased from the Trinity Hospital Trust ( the City Council were the trustees ) for £5000 and the title contained the condition that should the ground not be used for sport it had to be sold back to the Trust for £5000.
I think it cost in the region of £ 10,000 to buy out this restriction on the title.
The car park and extra ground that was needed for the high terrace extension was bought from the Redpath Brown the steel fabricators and did not have any title restrictions.

Fascinating stuff Greenginger. Funny to think that the car park land and rear of the old terrace eventually became worth much more than the actual football club. If only Mr Hart had had a crystal ball! There again maybe not.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I take my hat off to you for your username, of course, you had owners of clubs right across the board back then as you do now who get involved in team selection, and as for signing players its their money that the manager is using but for all that Hart was still a Hibs man who cared about the the club. Compare that to our current owner who bought the club, for a knock down price and with it got the land, then sold the land for something in the region of 2 million, if that was Hart that 2 million would have went back to the manager for the playing squad

Note to any eccentric millionaires thinking of buying a club.

This is how it always ends up. Football supporters are lunatics.

[tamig]

I remember Tom Hart as a bit of a visionary. Shirt sponsorship, undersoil heating amongst other things. My best memory of him was when
we played Berwick in the 80-81 season and me and my mates were too young to go into the boozer with the rest of the guys on the bus when we stopped at Ayton for a pre-match bevvy. Us youngsters went for a wander and the Hibs team bus was parked up outside a hotel where the players were having their meal. The driver called us over and handed us a bundle of complimentary tickets for the Shielfield stand. "Compliments of the chairman" he said - as Tom smiled and gave us the thumbs up standing behind him. A very nice memory of a great Hibs chairman.

[--------]

Doddie , you don't half spout some crap when it comes to Tom Hart and Council House building contracts.

I worked as a quantity surveyor on many council house schemes in the late 60's and all through the 70's with varioius contractors , Smart , Harrison, Hart so I think i should set the record straight.

The missing pipe collars for PVC down pipes are a figment of your imagination. The Wester Hailes developments you mention would be built in the early 70's. Pipe collars for fire protection were not in use then and fireproof duct boarding was supposed to be the method of fire protection. The original drawings for the schemes are still lodged at the city plan store if you want to check.

Tom Hart was supposed to have bullied workers on the Lochend High Flats contracts. Impossible, Hart Builders never built those flats, it was Wimpey or Laidlaw but don't let that detail interfere with your rant.

The fraud squad was investigating Hart just before he died ? You really do need some sort of help Doddie. Hart Builders was a Stock Exchange listed company in the early 70's with 6 or more directors including Hart. Do you think investigations would be dropped because one director died, of course not they, would have continued into the Company and other directors. They did'nt because there never was any investigation apart from in your own mind.

Tom Hart sold his majority share holding in Hart Builders to Crudens in 1973 and retired from the building industry. The company continues to trade today under the same name today.

As for leaving the Football Club in dire financial state, I think the overdraft was about £ 40,000 and the team had finished 5th in the Premier League.

One bit of good news Doddie, you can't get sued for slandering a person who is already dead, so feel free to continue to call Mr Hart a crook if you like, but try and get at least some of the background facts right as you just make yourself look like a right bitter fool.


Then if I'm wrong, I withdraw it. But don't tell me I'm imagining all that remedial work being done on the flats in Murrayburn. Harling, drying screens, pipe collars all done while we were living there. There were lots and lots of things wrong with those flats that had to be put right after the event, and I'm going on what we were told as tenants when the remedial work was being done.

Of course houses can be absolutely perfect ON PAPER. I'm sure the plans for the Murrayburn flats are wonderful, absolutely without blemish. It's when the houses are going up that the monkey business starts. What's on paper in the plans and what appears in bricks and mortar are so often two entirely different things in my experience.

As for the Lochend flats, it's a long time ago, so if those flats weren't Hart's fair enough - it wasn't those flats.

My mate was working for Hart, though, definitely, and he was perfectly clear in what he told me.

And I must have forgotten how his wise leadership led Hibs to dominate the game in Scotland during his later years and immediately after.

Ah, the good old days.... :rolleyes:

[heretoday]

Actually Harper scored a lot of goals for us. He was a rather unpleasant character however. Willie MacFarlane was a great manager for Hibs. If he had been kept on we might have been even better.

[Kato]

Willie MacFarlane was a great manager for Hibs. If he had been kept on we might have been even better.

What did achieve after he left Hibs?

[Purple & Green]

Do we have a list of all the club owners somewhere?


I've been working on this but its not straightforward, it something like this:

Up to 1932ish it was "Irish families"

From 1964ish to 1970ish It was Bill Harrower

From 1970ish to 1982ish it was Tom Hart

From 1982ish to 1987ish it was Kenny Waugh

From 1987ish to 1990ish it was David Duff (whatever happened to Jim Gray?)

From 1990ish to current it is Sir Tom Farmer.

Somewhere between 1932 when Harry Swan joined the board and 1964, [edit: it would appear] he became owner. Quite when that was or what exactly happened I'm still researching.

[superfurryhibby]

I've been working on this but its not straightforward, it something like this:

Up to 1932ish it was "Irish families"

From 1964ish to 1970ish It was Bill Harrower

From 1970ish to 1982ish it was Tom Hart

From 1982ish to 1990ish it was David Duff (whatever happened to Jim Gray?)

From 1990ish to current it is Sir Tom Farmer.

Somewhere between 1932 when Harry Swan joined the board and 1964, [edit: it would appear] he became owner. Quite when that was or what exactly happened I'm still researching.


Read Alan Lugton, I'm sure his books cover the period of Harry Swan's involvement in fine detail:-)

[--------]

What did achieve after he left Hibs?


He signed the majority of the team that became known as "Turnbull's" Tornadoes - all but Herriot, Edwards and Gordon. He was the manager who signed Erich Schaedler, Jim Black, Arthur Duncan; he was also the guy who realised that John Brownlie wasn't a centre-back but a right-back. After moving Onion to RB, he slotted Sloop into the left CB berth; that was the Tornadoes back four - Onion, Cilla, Sloop and Shades.

He had us third in the League his first season at ER, but when Hart came in, there was trouble. We had a third-round Fairs' Cup tie against Liverpool the following season, having beaten Malmo and Vitoria Guimaraes in the first two rounds. Hart told Willie he wasn't to pick Joe McBride for the Liverpool tie. Willie didn't back down, Joe played, but Willie was gone next day, IIRC.

My opinion, "Mr Hart" wanted Turnbull and deliberately put Willie in an impossible position to force him to resign. As it panned out, Turnbull wasn't available for some reason, and we had a season of Dave Ewing to endure before Turnbull arrived.

The whole affair seemed to sicken Willie and he didn't look for another job in football for 8 years. He had his own bookie's business. I saw him at ER at matches later on; he managed Meadowbank Thistle briefly in the late 70's, but his heart wasn't in it.

[--------]

I've been working on this but its not straightforward, it something like this:

Up to 1932ish it was "Irish families"

From 1964ish to 1970ish It was Bill Harrower

From 1970ish to 1982ish it was Tom Hart

Kenny Waugh? He was chairman between Hart and the Duff/Gray combo.

From 1982ish to 1990ish it was David Duff (whatever happened to Jim Gray?)

From 1990ish to current it is Sir Tom Farmer.

Somewhere between 1932 when Harry Swan joined the board and 1964, [edit: it would appear] he became owner. Quite when that was or what exactly happened I'm still researching.


Duff and Gray were brothers-in-law as I recall.

[Funkydunc]

Probably the best thread I have read on here.
10/10

[Kato]

He signed the majority of the team that became known as "Turnbull's" Tornadoes - all but Herriot, Edwards and Gordon. He was the manager who signed Erich Schaedler, Jim Black, Arthur Duncan; he was also the guy who realised that John Brownlie wasn't a centre-back but a right-back. After moving Onion to RB, he slotted Sloop into the left CB berth; that was the Tornadoes back four - Onion, Cilla, Sloop and Shades.

He had us third in the League his first season at ER, but when Hart came in, there was trouble. We had a third-round Fairs' Cup tie against Liverpool the following season, having beaten Malmo and Vitoria Guimaraes in the first two rounds. Hart told Willie he wasn't to pick Joe McBride for the Liverpool tie. Willie didn't back down, Joe played, but Willie was gone next day, IIRC.

My opinion, "Mr Hart" wanted Turnbull and deliberately put Willie in an impossible position to force him to resign. As it panned out, Turnbull wasn't available for some reason, and we had a season of Dave Ewing to endure before Turnbull arrived.

The whole affair seemed to sicken Willie and he didn't look for another job in football for 8 years. He had his own bookie's business. I saw him at ER at matches later on; he managed Meadowbank Thistle briefly in the late 70's, but his heart wasn't in it.


I spoke to Willie a few times well after he left Hibs. My journeyman as an apprentice was good pals with him. Willie was actually happier playing Sunday football than he ever was as a manager even at his age. Even when offered the Hibs job he was reluctant to take it on. There's no way he would ever have claimed himself he would have done a better job than Turnbull as he was a very modest guy. Then again he maybe wouldn't have claimed that as he knew he wouldn't have taken Hibs as far as Turnbull. He was a talened welll meaning amatuer.

As I said above this theory is revisoinist rubbish at best and petty at worst.


Did he really sign the majority of Turnbull's side, I doubt it.

[JeMeSouviens]

You've actually missed out 2 Scottish cup wins in 71 and 79 as well, so 19-4. :agree:

Younger readers may also note that there appear to be missing results from season 1977-78. If you went on they'd also find another 4 seasons of missing results. :wink:

1 cos we were down. :( 3 cos they were yo-yo-yoing and of course the season where they forgot to yo and just stayed down. :greengrin


It's funny, because I always thought of the establishment of the PL as the point when crowds started to decrease.

I suppose I haven't looked at the overall figures though, but I'm sure attendances at the Edinburgh Derby halved in less than a decade. We went from crowds of 30-35,000 in the early 70's to crowds of around 17,000 by about 77/78.

-----------------------------
On a side note, here's something for our younger readers that have never known an extended period of Hibs dominance in the derby. These are the results for a 15 year period, from 1965 to 1979 (inclusive). This only ended when the financial doping started under Wallace Mercer.

(attendances at right) - Wins: Hibs 17; Hearts 4.





01–01–1965
Hearts
0 – 1
36,297


18–09–1965
Hearts
0 – 4
22,369


01–01–1966
Hibs
2 – 3
32,192


10–09–1966
Hibs
3 – 1
21,395


02–01–1967
Hearts
0 – 0
30,086


09–09–1967
Hearts
1 – 4
20,773


01–01–1968
Hibs
1 – 0
32,360


07–09–1968
Hibs
1 – 3
24,110


01–01–1969
Hearts
0 – 0
30,011


27–09–1969
Hearts
0 – 2
26,807


01–01–1970
Hibs
0 – 0
36,421


05–09–1970
Hibs
0 – 0
23,225


01–01–1971
Hearts
0 – 0
27,715


04–09–1971
Hearts
0 – 2
26,671


01–01–1972
Hibs
0 – 0
36,046


09–09–1972
Hibs
2 – 0
21,221


01–01–1973
Hearts
0 – 7
35,989


08–09–1973
Hearts
4 – 1
28,946


01–01–1974
Hibs
3 – 1
35,393


07–09–1974
Hibs
2 – 1
26,560


01–01–1975
Hearts
0 – 0
35,969


30–08–1975
Hibs
1 – 0
23,646


01–11–1975
Hearts
1 – 1
24,471


01–01–1976
Hibs
3 – 0
32,923


13–03–1976
Hearts
0 – 1
18,528


30–10–1976
Hibs
1 – 1
23,773


26–01–1977
Hearts
0 – 1
24,068


23–03–1977
Hibs
3 – 1
13,625


13–04–1977
Hearts
2 – 2
10,686


26–08–1978
Hearts
1 – 1
19,663


04–11–1978
Hibs
1 – 2
20,120


17–03–1979
Hibs
1 – 1
13,297


28–03–1979
Hearts
1 – 2
16,042

[--------]

I spoke to Willie a few times well after he left Hibs. My journeyman as an apprentice was good pals with him. Willie was actually happier playing Sunday football than he ever was as a manager even at his age. Even when offered the Hibs job he was reluctant to take it on. There's no way he would ever have claimed himself he would have done a better job than Turnbull as he was a very modest guy. Then again he maybe wouldn't have claimed that as he knew he wouldn't have taken Hibs as far as Turnbull. He was a talened welll meaning amatuer.

As I said above this theory is revisoinist rubbish at best and petty at worst.


Did he really sign the majority of Turnbull's side, I doubt it.


Turnbull's first team was Herriot: Brownlie, and Schaedler; Stanton, Black and Blackley; Edwards, O'Rourke, Gordon, Cropley and Duncan.

I ddin't say WM signed the majority of those players; what I said was that most of those players were already at the club when Turnbull arrived.

WM signed Schaedler, Black, and Duncan, and was responsible for bringing Brownlie, Blackley and Cropley into the side.

ET replaced Marshall (who retired) with Herriot - a straight replacement of one goalie for another; Edwards, who was the guy the team revolved around - when he was playing, Hibs were pretty well unbeatable; and Gordon to lead the line. These were all top signings, but oddly enough every one of them somehow fell out of favour with ET very quickly.

Another major change ET made was to make Jim O'Rourke a first-team regular - until then Jim had been seen as a "utility player" who spent a lot of time as sub. Again, Jimmy seemed to fall out of favour awfully quickly.

It really wasn't very long after the League Cup win that ET was preferring Joe Harper and Tony Higgins to Gordon and O'Rourke as strikers.
I've NEVER been able to work THAT one out.

[Kato]

Turnbull's first team was Herriot: Brownlie, and Schaedler; Stanton, Black and Blackley; Edwards, O'Rourke, Gordon, Cropley and Duncan.

First team as in the first he fielded? Don't think so.


I ddin't say WM signed the majority of those players; what I said was that most of those players were already at the club when Turnbull arrived.

Yes, you did. From above...


He signed the majority of the team that became known as "Turnbull's" Tornadoes -



These were all top signings, but oddly enough every one of them somehow fell out of favour with ET very quickly.

Yeah, I have a memory too, and to say that Edwards fell out of favour "very quickly" is frankly nonsense.



It really wasn't very long after the League Cup win that ET was preferring Joe Harper and Tony Higgins to Gordon and O'Rourke as strikers. I've NEVER been able to work THAT one out.

It is a hard one to figure. Maybe he thought that some of those players weren't up to what he wanted which was to win the League. Gordon was 32 and not getting any younger. O'Rourke on the face of it is a harder one to fathom but he was hampered by an ankle injury he got as a 15 year old and which he hurt again a few years later, he carried the injury his whole career. Stanton claims that without that injury Jimmy would have been an even more prolific goal-scorer as it took a bit pace off him.

Turnbull wasn't perfect and it's easy to criticise in retrospect but maybe he thought he could improve the team.

Saying that I'm beginning to think your allowing your opinion to be coloured by your dislike of both Hart and Turnbull. On another thread you criticised Turnbull for overtraining his squad post-1973 and give that as a reason for their decline, which again in my opinion is just nonsense.

[Ray_]

Turnbull's first team was Herriot: Brownlie, and Schaedler; Stanton, Black and Blackley; Edwards, O'Rourke, Gordon, Cropley and Duncan.

I ddin't say WM signed the majority of those players; what I said was that most of those players were already at the club when Turnbull arrived.

WM signed Schaedler, Black, and Duncan, and was responsible for bringing Brownlie, Blackley and Cropley into the side.

ET replaced Marshall (who retired) with Herriot - a straight replacement of one goalie for another; Edwards, who was the guy the team revolved around - when he was playing, Hibs were pretty well unbeatable; and Gordon to lead the line. These were all top signings, but oddly enough every one of them somehow fell out of favour with ET very quickly.

Another major change ET made was to make Jim O'Rourke a first-team regular - until then Jim had been seen as a "utility player" who spent a lot of time as sub. Again, Jimmy seemed to fall out of favour awfully quickly.

It really wasn't very long after the League Cup win that ET was preferring Joe Harper and Tony Higgins to Gordon and O'Rourke as strikers.
I've NEVER been able to work THAT one out.

Doddie Turnbull wasn't infallible but he certainly moved the team onwards from Willie Mac's time, which in his second season, was very poor. Marshall actually signed for Celtic after leaving Hibs & Harper was signed in 1974 and we won the cup in 1972.

Hibs declined alarmingly in the mid to late seventies, as did Scottish football in general, it was only the emergence of Dundee United & Aberdeen that prevented it from being a lot worse than it did end up.

The talent stream that saw a multitude of excellent footballers that come from our country had started to dwindle down to a trickle and the quality wasn't there anymore, so although Hart & Turnbull made mistakes, that wasn't the sole reason for the decline.

[--------]

First team as in the first he fielded? Don't think so.

First team as in the team he fielded most often, the team generally thought of as the Tornadoes, which is the one I listed. How many managers get the selection so absolutely right first time out?

There were other players in and out of the team at first - Alex Pringle, Johnny Hazel, Billy McEwan and others who remained on the fringes or moved on. There were others who came into the side later, like Bobby Smith, Tony Higgins, and Des Bremner, but the team that gelled in season 72-73 is the one that's usually referred to as the Tornadoes, the one that played in the 72 LC Final and the 7-0 at Tynecastle on 01/01/73. That team was the Tornadoes team at their best.

Yes, you did. From above...

OK. You got me. I'll recant and correct myself - the majority of the Tornadoes team were already at ER when Turnbull arrived. And WM had given the majority of that team their debuts in the first team. OK?

Yeah, I have a memory too, and to say that Edwards fell out of favour "very quickly" is frankly nonsense.

Around 140 appearances in 7 seasons, most of them in his first three seasons, 71-74. What else do you call it?

It is a hard one to figure. Maybe he thought that some of those players weren't up to what he wanted which was to win the League. Gordon was 32 and not getting any younger. O'Rourke on the face of it is a harder one to fathom but he was hampered by an ankle injury he got as a 15 year old and which he hurt again a few years later, he carried the injury his whole career. Stanton claims that without that injury Jimmy would have been an even more prolific goal-scorer as it took a bit pace off him.

Gordon was a part-timer - he was close to qualifying as a Chartered Accountant and wasn't interested in going full-time. Turnbull wanted full-time commitment. Please tell me - what was the point of punting AG who was as lean as a rake and extremely athletic, to replace him with the "full-time professional" Joe "The Barrel" Harper? Which of those two demonstrated "professional commitment in his time at Hibs"? And it was obvious from the start that Jim O'Rourke with his bad ankle was still a lot better a prospect than Tony Higgins.

Turnbull wasn't perfect and it's easy to criticise in retrospect but maybe he thought he could improve the team.

Well, he went a very strange way about it, and made a complete hash of it in the end.

Saying that I'm beginning to think your allowing your opinion to be coloured by your dislike of both Hart and Turnbull. On another thread you criticised Turnbull for over-training his squad post-1973 and give that as a reason for their decline, which again in my opinion is just nonsense.

Not my opinion. NOT nonsense. He admitted as much in the "Tornadoes" video. I thought much the more of him that he was big enough to admit it. And not "post-1973" - he said he made the mistake almost immediately after the 7-0 at Tynie. Then we lost Onion for the rest of the season; then Mickey got his 8-weeks' suspension, and the wheels were right off the wagon. It wasn't all down to ET, but some of the stuff he did din't help.

[/QUOTE]I admit that I was never convinced that Hart was a good thing for Hibs, and in retrospect I stand by that opinion.

Turnbull's harder to call - his Aberdeen teams tended to be bruisers. I think if he had been a better man-manager he would have got much more out of the players we're talking about - Jock Stein had players at Celtic Park who were just as difficult to deal with as (for example) Alex Edwards.

And I don't think he was the main man in the dispersion of the 72-73 team - I consider that a lot of the transfer business going on at ER in those days was down to the chairman.

[stoneyburn hibs]

This thread is a cracking read, great to learn about bygone years before my time.

[Hibiza]

unpleasant and dictatorial.

[brog]

Doddie I enjoy your posts though I think you're wrong about both Tom Hart & Eddie T in downplaying their contributions to Hibs. Remember when we won the LC in 1972 that was our first cup for 70 years. These guys achieved what the FF couldn't & they beat both the OF to do it, as we did with 2 Drybrough cups in the same period.
I think Willie Mac did a great job with Hibs & he was living the dream for a while but I don't think even Willie would argue that Turnbull was more qualified as a manager. Incidentally it was Bob Shankly who gave both Crops & Blackley their first starts & IIRC Brownlie was thrust into first team earlier than planned because of an injury to Chris Shevlane, possibly at Muirton. I also think your memory's playing tricks re the dream team of Higgins/Harper up front. It happened I'm sure but on no more than a handful of occasions, mainly because in Harper's time at ER Tony's large bahooky was almost permanently warming the bench. And as for the much maligned Harper, 49 goals in 99 appearances & capped for Scotland while at ER. I wish we had a few sh~te players like that at ER now.

[Hiber-nation]

I spoke to Willie a few times well after he left Hibs. My journeyman as an apprentice was good pals with him. Willie was actually happier playing Sunday football than he ever was as a manager even at his age. Even when offered the Hibs job he was reluctant to take it on. There's no way he would ever have claimed himself he would have done a better job than Turnbull as he was a very modest guy. Then again he maybe wouldn't have claimed that as he knew he wouldn't have taken Hibs as far as Turnbull. He was a talened welll meaning amatuer.

As I said above this theory is revisoinist rubbish at best and petty at worst.

Did he really sign the majority of Turnbull's side, I doubt it.

Willie McFarlane had Hibs playing well but as far as I've been told, this was more due to Willie letting the players get on with it and play attacking fitba, rather than any great tactical nous Willie had. My Mum's boss, who was a great Hibbie and used to take me to the games, knew Willie well and that was always his version of events.

I can't find too many players other than Arthur Duncan and Johnny Graham that Willie signed other than those brought through from the juniors. There's bound to be 1 or 2 more.

[Ray_]

Doddie I enjoy your posts though I think you're wrong about both Tom Hart & Eddie T in downplaying their contributions to Hibs. Remember when we won the LC in 1972 that was our first cup for 70 years. These guys achieved what the FF couldn't & they beat both the OF to do it, as we did with 2 Drybrough cups in the same period.
I think Willie Mac did a great job with Hibs & he was living the dream for a while but I don't think even Willie would argue that Turnbull was more qualified as a manager. Incidentally it was Bob Shankly who gave both Crops & Blackley their first starts & IIRC Brownlie was thrust into first team earlier than planned because of an injury to Chris Shevlane, possibly at Muirton. I also think your memory's playing tricks re the dream team of Higgins/Harper up front. It happened I'm sure but on no more than a handful of occasions, mainly because in Harper's time at ER Tony's large bahooky was almost permanently warming the bench. And as for the much maligned Harper, 49 goals in 99 appearances & capped for Scotland while at ER. I wish we had a few sh~te players like that at ER now.

Spot on, Alex Cropley made his debut the previous season [1968/9] against St Mirren & he scored around three goals in about four game before the end of that season. John Brownlie had joined Hibs in the same season as Sojer made his debut and was already making a name for himself in the reserves under Bob Shankley, he was actually sent off and then injured in two of the games leading up to Willie Mac taking over and would have been a stick on for the RB spot, no matter who was in charge.

Jim Black was a Shanks signing, he joined before the start of 1969/70 and I'm sure he made his debut at Coventry, although he did start in the first game at ER that 1969/70 season, against Newcastle. John Blackley had already made himself a regular by this time, after several outings the previous season, when you add the three players signed by ET to the others mentioned here, plus not forgetting Pat Stanton & Jim O'Rourke, who were obviously there even earlier, the claim that Willie Mac gave most of the TT's their debut is wide of the mark.

In that first half of the second season that Willie Mac was at Hibs, we won five of the nineteen leagues games played, which took us up to the NY derby, which was just after Willie Mac left, we failed to score in eight of those games & during this time Aberdeen & St Mirren put three past us & Motherwell got four. In true Hibs fashion, this spell did include wins over both Rangers and Celtic, the Celtic one being Hibs first game with Tom Hart on board, which I mentioned before. One of the other wins was 4-1 in Cowdenbeath, it was pouring of rain & Kenny Davidson & Alex Cropley were fantastic that day, Crops got two of the goals.

Tom McNiven was in charge of Hibs for the three wins between Shanks leaving & Willie Mac coming on board, including the win at Parkhead. I think Doddie is seeing Willie Mac's reign through rose tinted glasses, there was some great football, as you would expect with players like Brownlie, Blackley, Stanton, Marinello, Cormack, Cropley, Stevenson & Duncan, but there was also a lot of really poor performances as well.

[heretoday]

Turnbull's first team was Herriot: Brownlie, and Schaedler; Stanton, Black and Blackley; Edwards, O'Rourke, Gordon, Cropley and Duncan.

I ddin't say WM signed the majority of those players; what I said was that most of those players were already at the club when Turnbull arrived.

WM signed Schaedler, Black, and Duncan, and was responsible for bringing Brownlie, Blackley and Cropley into the side.

ET replaced Marshall (who retired) with Herriot - a straight replacement of one goalie for another; Edwards, who was the guy the team revolved around - when he was playing, Hibs were pretty well unbeatable; and Gordon to lead the line. These were all top signings, but oddly enough every one of them somehow fell out of favour with ET very quickly.

Another major change ET made was to make Jim O'Rourke a first-team regular - until then Jim had been seen as a "utility player" who spent a lot of time as sub. Again, Jimmy seemed to fall out of favour awfully quickly.

It really wasn't very long after the League Cup win that ET was preferring Joe Harper and Tony Higgins to Gordon and O'Rourke as strikers.
I've NEVER been able to work THAT one out.

I'm with you 100%. :agree:

[heretoday]

Tom Hart was a man used to getting his own way.

He obviously thought Turnbull was the best guy for Hibs and that was a master stroke for a while.

On reflection though, what did we win? A League Cup and two Drybroughs.

I recall his idea of bringing John Toshack up for games by helicopter and of course the George Best experience which was notorious but ultimately fruitless.

We got relegated.

[greenpaper55]

Tom Hart was a man used to getting his own way.

He obviously thought Turnbull was the best guy for Hibs and that was a master stroke for a while.

On reflection though, what did we win? A League Cup and two Drybroughs.

I recall his idea of bringing John Toshack up for games by helicopter and of course the George Best experience which was notorious but ultimately fruitless.

We got relegated.

We were only beaten by Hearts twice in all his time at the helm, dire stuff eh ?. We can only dream about results like that nowadays.

[heretoday]

We were only beaten by Hearts twice in all his time at the helm, dire stuff eh ?. We can only dream about results like that nowadays.

If success is measured in wins/defeats by Hearts then god help us.

[CropleyWasGod]

Tom Hart was a man used to getting his own way.

He obviously thought Turnbull was the best guy for Hibs and that was a master stroke for a while.

On reflection though, what did we win? A League Cup and two Drybroughs.

I recall his idea of bringing John Toshack up for games by helicopter and of course the George Best experience which was notorious but ultimately fruitless.

We got relegated.

More than we have won under any other chair since. :cb

Oh, there was the First Division title... :greengrin

[Ray_]

If success is measured in wins/defeats by Hearts then god help us.

You must be joking! At the time of the TT's, we had the best footballing team in Britain to watch and many on here recognised that period as the best time they have ever had as a Hibby, in comparison to the sheer entertainment on offer. If you compare that with the last thirty five years, in particular the last seven, I'm mighty interest what you term as success?

[Ray_]

Turnbull's first team was Herriot: Brownlie, and Schaedler; Stanton, Black and Blackley; Edwards, O'Rourke, Gordon, Cropley and Duncan.

I ddin't say WM signed the majority of those players; what I said was that most of those players were already at the club when Turnbull arrived.

WM signed Schaedler, Black, and Duncan, and was responsible for bringing Brownlie, Blackley and Cropley into the side.

ET replaced Marshall (who retired) with Herriot - a straight replacement of one goalie for another; Edwards, who was the guy the team revolved around - when he was playing, Hibs were pretty well unbeatable; and Gordon to lead the line. These were all top signings, but oddly enough every one of them somehow fell out of favour with ET very quickly.

Another major change ET made was to make Jim O'Rourke a first-team regular - until then Jim had been seen as a "utility player" who spent a lot of time as sub. Again, Jimmy seemed to fall out of favour awfully quickly.

It really wasn't very long after the League Cup win that ET was preferring Joe Harper and Tony Higgins to Gordon and O'Rourke as strikers.
I've NEVER been able to work THAT one out.

Doddie your memory is playing tricks, Blackley & Cropley were already first team regulars, from the tail end of the season before Willie Mac arrival, in fact, Sojer had already scored a few goals in his run in the first team. John Brownlie, was a regular in the reserves at right back, under the previous manager and was close to making his first team breakthrough & Jim Black was signed by Shankly and was a regular after John Madsen's departure.

The players Willie Mac deserves real credit for are Erich Scheadler & Arthur Duncan, but we took a huge hit on Jim Blair. WM's record wasn't that good in his second season, as highlighted above, but at the time I was sorry to see him go as some of the football was really great, but it was just the same under Shanks and Dave Ewing as well, ET took it up several notches.

[Jack]

I've been working on this but its not straightforward, it something like this:

Up to 1932ish it was "Irish families"

From 1964ish to 1970ish It was Bill Harrower

From 1970ish to 1982ish it was Tom Hart

From 1982ish to 1990ish it was David Duff (whatever happened to Jim Gray?)

From 1990ish to current it is Sir Tom Farmer.

Somewhere between 1932 when Harry Swan joined the board and 1964, [edit: it would appear] he became owner. Quite when that was or what exactly happened I'm still researching.

Thanks for that. I had a feeling when I asked the question the answer would not be as simple as a neat list.

Good luck with your research!

[Ray_]

Thanks for that. I had a feeling when I asked the question the answer would not be as simple as a neat list.

Good luck with your research!

Kenny Waugh was missed out, here is an article a year after he took over ...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19830503&id=kcRAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9qUMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2880,194022

[ancient hibee]

Willie Macfarlane was a good lad and anyone who could get Arsenal to pay £100K for Peter Marinello can't be totally discounted.

[Ray_]

Willie Macfarlane was a good lad and anyone who could get Arsenal to pay £100K for Peter Marinello can't be totally discounted.

Agreed RE: WM & Arsenal got their £100K back from Portsmouth.

[--------]

Doddie your memory is playing tricks, Blackley & Cropley were already first team regulars, from the tail end of the season before Willie Mac arrival, in fact, Sojer had already scored a few goals in his run in the first team. John Brownlie, was a regular in the reserves at right back, under the previous manager and was close to making his first team breakthrough & Jim Black was signed by Shankly and was a regular after John Madsen's departure.

The players Willie Mac deserves real credit for are Erich Scheadler & Arthur Duncan, but we took a huge hit on Jim Blair. WM's record wasn't that good in his second season, as highlighted above, but at the time I was sorry to see him go as some of the football was really great, but it was just the same under Shanks and Dave Ewing as well, ET took it up several notches.


I'm obviously getting too old for this. I'm gonnae retire.

[Ray_]

I'm obviously getting too old for this. I'm gonnae retire.

Nah, this would be a lot worse place without you, you really got people's memory's going and a lot of people have enjoyed the thread, which you made a major contribution to. Fair do' you didn't have a lot of time for either Tom Hart or, to a lesser degree, Eddie Turnbull, but this thread shows although you weren't exactly in the majority, your opinion wasn't alone & we all remember and learn from threads like this, even if its something different to how we remembered it from the time.

[One Day]

Nah, this would be a lot worse place without you, you really got people's memory's going and a lot of people have enjoyed the thread, which you made a major contribution to. Fair do' you didn't have a lot of time for either Tom Hart or, to a lesser degree, Eddie Turnbull, but this thread shows although you weren't exactly in the majority, your opinion wasn't alone & we all remember and learn from threads like this, even if its something different to how we remembered it from the time.

I agree, this has been one of the more intersting/enjoyable recent threads.

[greenpaper55]

Doddie your memory is playing tricks, Blackley & Cropley were already first team regulars, from the tail end of the season before Willie Mac arrival, in fact, Sojer had already scored a few goals in his run in the first team. John Brownlie, was a regular in the reserves at right back, under the previous manager and was close to making his first team breakthrough & Jim Black was signed by Shankly and was a regular after John Madsen's departure.

The players Willie Mac deserves real credit for are Erich Scheadler & Arthur Duncan, but we took a huge hit on Jim Blair. WM's record wasn't that good in his second season, as highlighted above, but at the time I was sorry to see him go as some of the football was really great, but it was just the same under Shanks and Dave Ewing as well, ET took it up several notches.

Jim Blair dear oh dear !, we thought he was going to be the next big thing but what a dud. My memory is playing tricks which is not unusual but i thought Turnbull signed Schaedler and Duncan i think from Stirling and Partick respectively but i bow to your youthfull knowledge !.

[Ray_]

Jim Blair dear oh dear !, we thought he was going to be the next big thing but what a dud. My memory is playing tricks which is not unusual but i thought Turnbull signed Schaedler and Duncan i think from Stirling and Partick respectively but i bow to your youthfull knowledge !.

Willie went back to Stirling where he had been managing to get Erich & he signed Arthur the day Peter Marinello left for Arsenal. I remember, much like it is today, there was TV footage from Partick's offices of Arthur leaving to travel through to Edinburgh to sign, which was very unusual in them days, except for the very big deals.

[ancient hibee]

Willie went back to Stirling where he had been managing to get Erich & he signed Arthur the day Peter Marinello left for Arsenal. I remember, much like it is today, there was TV footage from Partick's offices of Arthur leaving to travel through to Edinburgh to sign, which was very unusual in them days, except for the very big deals.

Wasn't it £30K for Arthur?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Willie went back to Stirling where he had been managing to get Erich & he signed Arthur the day Peter Marinello left for Arsenal. I remember, much like it is today, there was TV footage from Partick's offices of Arthur leaving to travel through to Edinburgh to sign, which was very unusual in them days, except for the very big deals.

According to Marinello, Arthur saw him at a bus stop and offered him a lift to Easter Road. Peter asked Arthur why he was in Edinburgh, and Arthur told him he was his replacement. This was the first Marinello heard about his transfer to Arsenal. (From Fallen Idle, Marinellos autobiography).

[Ray_]

Wasn't it £30K for Arthur?

35k was reported at the time.

[Ray_]

According to Marinello, Arthur saw him at a bus stop and offered him a lift to Easter Road. Peter asked Arthur why he was in Edinburgh, and Arthur told him he was his replacement. This was the first Marinello heard about his transfer to Arsenal. (From Fallen Idle, Marinellos autobiography).

Yeah I read that too, don't know quite how it fitted in with the film report about Arthur Duncan, obviously the press and TV crew's were all over "the new George Best" joining Arsenal, perhaps it was an offshoot of that, I can't remember if it was or not. :dunno:

It could have been Arthur leaving Maryhill after collecting his gear after the formalities had been completed. Obviously back then it was different to how news gets reported today & watching that was the first I knew AD had signed. Most signings were picked up in the Evening News or the following morning's daily, not that there was many of them, another thing different from today.

Being a youngster at the time I was excited about a new signing being shown on the TV & really gutted on a hero heading out. We were certainly getting plenty coverage of the Marinello transfer and his two goals at Ibrox repeated on TV news programmes many times & of course his appearance on T.O.T.P's soon after.

[Purple & Green]

Read Alan Lugton, I'm sure his books cover the period of Harry Swan's involvement in fine detail:-)

It covers Swan becoming involved in great detail, but Swan didn't take ownership straight away and it's not covered by Lugton when that happened - but thanks for the suggestion. Just rechecking another file I've been keeping, and I've marked Swan becoming owner in 1946 - can't see why I've marked that as the date though.


Duff and Gray were brothers-in-law as I recall.

They sure were - has Gray been heard of since?


unpleasant and dictatorial.

It's also a long time ago - 45 odd years ago he took control of Hibs, and 30 odd years since he died. Different world?


Thanks for that. I had a feeling when I asked the question the answer would not be as simple as a neat list.

Good luck with your research!

No bother - if I ever get to the bottom of it I'll let you know


Kenny Waugh was missed out, here is an article a year after he took over ...



http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19830503&id=kcRAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9qUMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2880,194022

I don't know how I could have forgotten about it him - thanks for reminding me :)

[heretoday]

You must be joking! At the time of the TT's, we had the best footballing team in Britain to watch and many on here recognised that period as the best time they have ever had as a Hibby, in comparison to the sheer entertainment on offer. If you compare that with the last thirty five years, in particular the last seven, I'm mighty interest what you term as success?

Well er.....not in terms of just beating Hearts. That is the only point I was trying to make.

[heretoday]

Jim Blair dear oh dear !, we thought he was going to be the next big thing but what a dud. My memory is playing tricks which is not unusual but i thought Turnbull signed Schaedler and Duncan i think from Stirling and Partick respectively but i bow to your youthfull knowledge !.

Oh god please nurse I am having a stroke. Jim Blair!

Barn doors, cows' backsides and banjos come to mind! He was absolutely hopeless. Only Mark Caughey was worse.

Mind you the current guys who masquerade as Hibs players come close.

[Delboy4]

Jim Blair dear oh dear !, we thought he was going to be the next big thing but what a dud. My memory is playing tricks which is not unusual but i thought Turnbull signed Schaedler and Duncan i think from Stirling and Partick respectively but i bow to your youthfull knowledge !.

Quite right about Schaed's...my business partner, Jim Hancock played for Hibs and was told that he was going to Stirling Albion by the gaffer and Erich was coming the other way! Imagine that happening now, Christ the players would be taking it to the tribunal. Lol

Mind you, it did happen with Paddy Stanton when he went to Celtic, Jackie Mac didn't even know anything about the transfer until it was on TV.
How things have changed..!?

[hibbybrian]

It covers Swan becoming involved in great detail, but Swan didn't take ownership straight away and it's not covered by Lugton when that happened - but thanks for the suggestion. Just rechecking another file I've been keeping, and I've marked Swan becoming owner in 1946 - can't see why I've marked that as the date though.

Director Owen Brannigan, the last of the ould Irish, died in January 1946 :not worth

[Jones28]

What a fantastic, enlightening and educational thread this is. Thanks to everyone involved!

Our derby record at the time is something else, and here was us happy after going a season unbeaten against them.

I wonder what TH would have made of what is going on with the club now.

[Pete]

Nah, this would be a lot worse place without you, you really got people's memory's going and a lot of people have enjoyed the thread, which you made a major contribution to. Fair do' you didn't have a lot of time for either Tom Hart or, to a lesser degree, Eddie Turnbull, but this thread shows although you weren't exactly in the majority, your opinion wasn't alone & we all remember and learn from threads like this, even if its something different to how we remembered it from the time.

:agree:

As a relatively younger guy I'm all ears when anyone posts who is of a certain vintage. I might disagree with certain posters who are in their late fifties and early sixties but deep down I know they have bought the t-shirt, know what they are talking about and have formed their opinion through experience.

As for memory, I'm not every 40 and I'm questioning every one of my football experiences before 1993 due to the amount of incidents, player details and games I have recalled that have turned out to be inaccurate.:tee hee:

[Ray_]

Quite right about Schaed's...my business partner, Jim Hancock played for Hibs and was told that he was going to Stirling Albion by the gaffer and Erich was coming the other way! Imagine that happening now, Christ the players would be taking it to the tribunal. Lol

Mind you, it did happen with Paddy Stanton when he went to Celtic, Jackie Mac didn't even know anything about the transfer until it was on TV.
How things have changed..!?

I think Shades debut was against Gornik, December 69, they had beat Rangers the month before in the CWC, winning both legs 3-1. Gornik reached the final, where Man City beat them. Gornik had the wonderful Włodek Lubanski, who tore England a new one in Poland's home leg of the WC qualifier, Poland won 2-0, which set up the famous [Jan Tomaszewski ] 1-1 draw at Wembley in 1973, which saw England eliminated.

Unfortunately for Poland, Gornik & most of all, the player himself, Lubanski, sustained a bad leg brake soon after he scored Poland's second goal against England in that first meeting between the two, which was in June 1972. Lubanski had skipped past Roy MacFarland, only to see a very late tackle from the Derby County man bring him down, he was stretchered off and was never the same player again.

Sorry for going on about Lubanski, but he was a superb player and it was a joy to watch him in the friendly match, even although they beat us 2-1. Shades part, Willie McEwan started at left back and Shades came on as sub & went through Peter Cormack in an attempt to reach the ball, Peter was carried off as Shades tackling prowess was there for all to see, thankfully he tuned it so it was pitched against the opposition rather than team mates.

Peter Cormack had been away from Hibs around fifteen months when ET arrived.

[Ray_]

:agree:

As a relatively younger guy I'm all ears when anyone posts who is of a certain vintage. I might disagree with certain posters who are in their late fifties and early sixties but deep down I know they have bought the t-shirt, know what they are talking about and have formed their opinion through experience.

As for memory, I'm not every 40 and I'm questioning every one of my football experiences before 1993 due to the amount of incidents, player details and games I have recalled that have turned out to be inaccurate.:tee hee:


Don't got there :greengrin Johnnyboy, Brian & many others have corrected me when my memory has played tricks!