The Hibernian Effect?

[McPhisto2]

After reading some of the comments about Heffernan on the "Butcher's Comments" thread, it has finally nudged me over the edge into asking a question that's been frustrating me for a significant amount of time but still I can't find an answer.

What is it about players that either come to Hibs or leave Hibs? Indulge me here. What I mean is, we seem to get some good, decent players into Hibs over the last few years and from what I can see, seem to turn them average at best. Same with decent players we let go. Players that have seemed ok for us then leave and join other clubs seem to find a new lease of life.

For me Heffernan is a good example. Seemed to be one of Killie's best players on average, then he signs for us and is now mediocre (not my opinion btw, think he needs more games but I digress).

So what is it about Hibs that has this affect on players? :confused: Apologies if this has been asked before but its bewildered me for some time and I may have missed the conversation.

[RN Hibee]

The more management teams and players that we go through the more I start to believe something must be rotten within the core of the club but I also think some fans are too eager to write of players (and managers) after the years of disappointment we've suffered they want immediate results which simply isn't possible. Already I've seen and heard people writing Butcher of and criticising the likes of Haynes who hasn't played nearly enough games to be judged on.

It's also possible that people look for scapegoats when results are going poorly; John Rankin is one that springs to mind and as such these players are remembered as much worse than they actually are, then when they come back to play against us everyone only seems to notice the things they do well. I'm not completely saying there isn't a trend with players quality deteriorating while at Hibs but I think fan perception may make it seem like a much larger issue than it is.

[Jones28]

It's a combination of things. Pressure and expectation at Hibs is much higher than other clubs because we are a big fish in this small pond and should be much, much better than we are. A lot of players we sign are coming from clubs where these expectations are not as high.

Secondly there is very little in the way of stability at the club. A player hasn't come in to a stable management team who are established and can help players to settle and play a system that works for us on the pitch.

But finally, ultimately and most importantly is a lack of confidence and ambition as a whole. There is nothing that shouts out "we will finish third/second". The club have seen the evidence and know we have the support to sustain higher levels of investment when results improve. Maybe this is the time to speculate to accumulate? I didn't feel this way before but now I think TB is the right man and frankly I am sick of the sub par football we have to watch.

[greenpaper55]

Last night Clancy came on for St Johnston after 20 minutes and lasted the game out, the same player who was injured for months and we released to go to our main rival for the top six spot !. Added to that we have no cover for full backs if we have injuries, sometimes i do wonder if they think things through at ER.

[Craig_in_Prague]

Looking forward to next season, we have a proven management team (including a really good scout) and they'll have the summer to shape their own team.

If we are still colin nish next season and remain a bottom half side, then I do wonder - Whilst I know TB may need a bit more than his 1st full season, you'd think he'd be able to get us going and at least properly challenging for 2nd or 3rd.

The games a bogey if we fail under this management team. No idea what we would do next.

[Billychaotic182]

Looking forward to next season, we have a proven management team (including a really good scout) and they'll have the summer to shape their own team.

If we are still colin nish next season and remain a bottom half side, then I do wonder - Whilst I know TB may need a bit more than his 1st full season, you'd think he'd be able to get us going and at least properly challenging for 2nd or 3rd.

The games a bogey if we fail under this management team. No idea what we would do next.

I don't think it's tough to ask us to be better next season. Look at Aberdeen. McInnes 1st season and they could have 2cups and 2nd place. All the talk in Jan was about how we can't get players in at this time ad we were to judge them in the summer. So I expect after comments like that for us to do out work early and bring in all the right players. Instead of this last min signings who turn out to be panic buys.

But I agree with a previous post. When things aren't going well we really do always turn to a player as a scapegoat. Then when that player leaves it's like we forget about all there flaws and just see what there good at. Why couldn't we do that when they were our player. We would kill or a john rankin in this team right now. I don't think bits fair to always blame the board or the players or the manager. Sometimes we fans should look at ourselves and think we have failed them. Now I know that year after year of bog standard football has left us this way but as sad before some people are writing off Haynes already and he's played what 3/4 times for us. We need to take a step back and see how things pan out

[Craig_in_Prague]

I don't think it's tough to ask us to be better next season. Look at Aberdeen. McInnes 1st season and they could have 2cups and 2nd place. All the talk in Jan was about how we can't get players in at this time ad we were to judge them in the summer. So I expect after comments like that for us to do out work early and bring in all the right players. Instead of this last min signings who turn out to be panic buys.

But I agree with a previous post. When things aren't going well we really do always turn to a player as a scapegoat. Then when that player leaves it's like we forget about all there flaws and just see what there good at. Why couldn't we do that when they were our player. We would kill or a john rankin in this team right now. I don't think bits fair to always blame the board or the players or the manager. Sometimes we fans should look at ourselves and think we have failed them. Now I know that year after year of bog standard football has left us this way but as sad before some people are writing off Haynes already and he's played what 3/4 times for us. We need to take a step back and see how things pan out

We have no devine right to be 2nd or 3rd and under TB, I just hope we have the look of a team that could make such a position in the league, not a lot between Aberdeen/Motherwell/D UTD on any given day... We need to get to that level on a consistent basis - If we can't do so under TB, then I just wonder.

As for fans, there was plenty moaning around the Mowbray days as well - It means little in the grand scheme of things, what fans think of a Rankin, Boozy, or anyone else. We won a cup in 2007 and we had good league placings; but still plenty players got a hard time.

I think the supporters influence on team's results is too exaggerated on here. All IMHO of course.

[--------]

The more management teams and players that we go through the more I start to believe something must be rotten within the core of the club but I also think some fans are too eager to write of players (and managers) after the years of disappointment we've suffered they want immediate results which simply isn't possible. Already I've seen and heard people writing Butcher of and criticising the likes of Haynes who hasn't played nearly enough games to be judged on.

It's also possible that people look for scapegoats when results are going poorly; John Rankin is one that springs to mind and as such these players are remembered as much worse than they actually are, then when they come back to play against us everyone only seems to notice the things they do well. I'm not completely saying there isn't a trend with players quality deteriorating while at Hibs but I think fan perception may make it seem like a much larger issue than it is.


Welcome to my world. I've been saying that for ages and getting pelters for it at times. Hibs' culture is the negative-losers kind, and it comes down from the top.

That would be bad enough, but I think we must have some of the most impatient and hypercritical supporters in the world. Butcher and Malpas have been here four months and in those four months TB has gone from being the Messiah we've all been waiting for to the Antichrist out to destroy us.

Hibernian's a classic case of a chronically-dysfunctional football club. I've see a few in my time, and the cure, like it or not, has always been a change of owner and a complete clear-out of the suits first, then a new manager (possibly), then new and improved playing-staff.

Player after player plays well for his club; he comes to Hibs and his form/fitness/both nosedive; he moves on, and suddenly he finds his enthusiasm, fitness and game again.

Seven years of famine - look for the guys who've been around all seven years and in control. Messrs Farmer and Petrie.

[greenpaper55]

Welcome to my world. I've been saying that for ages and getting pelters for it at times. Hibs' culture is the negative-losers kind, and it comes down from the top.

That would be bad enough, but I think we must have some of the most impatient and hypercritical supporters in the world. Butcher and Malpas have been here four months and in those four months TB has gone from being the Messiah we've all been waiting for to the Antichrist out to destroy us.

Hibernian's a classic case of a chronically-dysfunctional football club. I've see a few in my time, and the cure, like it or not, has always been a change of owner and a complete clear-out of the suits first, then a new manager (possibly), then new and improved playing-staff.

Player after player plays well for his club; he comes to Hibs and his form/fitness/both nosedive; he moves on, and suddenly he finds his enthusiasm, fitness and game again.

Seven years of famine - look for the guys who've been around all seven years and in control. Messrs Farmer and Petrie.

:top marksI am old enough to remember when another Tom was running Hibs-Tom Hart, the difference from then and now is like night and day. When Hart took over you could feel his dynamism and love for the club not to mention his spending power as well and it was obvious that he had great plans for the club and we were on an upward curve. We are run by people who have many other business interests and you get the feeling that Hibs are way down their agenda . i think their motto is"as long as does not lose money" then they are happy to bumble along for ever . The question is what do we do about it if anything, the fans patience can only be stretched for so long but the powers that be seem intent on testing it to the limit.

[McPhisto2]

Welcome to my world. I've been saying that for ages and getting pelters for it at times. Hibs' culture is the negative-losers kind, and it comes down from the top.

That would be bad enough, but I think we must have some of the most impatient and hypercritical supporters in the world. Butcher and Malpas have been here four months and in those four months TB has gone from being the Messiah we've all been waiting for to the Antichrist out to destroy us.

Hibernian's a classic case of a chronically-dysfunctional football club. I've see a few in my time, and the cure, like it or not, has always been a change of owner and a complete clear-out of the suits first, then a new manager (possibly), then new and improved playing-staff.

Player after player plays well for his club; he comes to Hibs and his form/fitness/both nosedive; he moves on, and suddenly he finds his enthusiasm, fitness and game again.

Seven years of famine - look for the guys who've been around all seven years and in control. Messrs Farmer and Petrie.

Genuinely grateful for all the replies guys, as I said its something that's bugged me for a while so interesting to hear the points of view given.

I had started to believe that there was something much deeper going on at Hibs that pointed towards some kind of connection with the top ranks of suits, but I also think that Petrie has done a great job at stabilising us financially. Yeah I understand the gripes of many who say we should now go for broke with the new management (I had been shouting for Butcher back when Calderwood was appointed) and I do tend to agree. However, this in my mind intimates that Petrie has been tight with money for players but I then remember the number of players we brought in under Fenlon at the start of this season. Yes, they've turned out to be underwhelming but the sheer number he got to bring in did surprise me.

I still think there's something about culture of the club internally. Yeah it could be a negative mind set towards the ambitions the club should have, but recently I've been thinking about the attitude towards players from the infrastructure that's in place. Its a pretty young team, so is the culture too old school? Do the young players not like how their day to day regime is handled and treated? Its merely a theory of my own so who knows. If it is something like this, then from what I've seen of Butcher, he seems to be a man of thinking as well as football practicalities so maybe he'll change the ethos in time?

Surely the only way is up now, and as a lot of folks have already said, if this management team coupled with the scout of all scouts apparently, doesn't get things changed, then yeah, the next step for Hibs is a bit of a mystery to me.

[Spike Mandela]

In the case of Heffernan you have to ask why Killie were so keen to release him. It seemed a strange one at the time and many people pointed to Killie's financial problems. However, maybe they simply recognised his diminishing fitness and potency and were more than covered up front with Boyd.

[Broken Gnome]

This rotten to the core stuff. Let's be specific and not just use it as a throwaway line like wage thief, for instance.

What exactly is it that turns Liam Craig into a good St Johnstone player into an average at best Hibs one? What's the negative influence on him? Genuinely curious. Given match days are hardly a carefree, don't care environment as the support demand plenty.

[Jones28]

This rotten to the core stuff. Let's be specific and not just use it as a throwaway line like wage thief, for instance.

What exactly is it that turns Liam Craig into a good St Johnstone player into an average at best Hibs one? What's the negative influence on him? Genuinely curious. Given match days are hardly a carefree, don't care environment as the support demand plenty.

Maybe too much pressure?

[Jones28]

Welcome to my world. I've been saying that for ages and getting pelters for it at times. Hibs' culture is the negative-losers kind, and it comes down from the top.

That would be bad enough, but I think we must have some of the most impatient and hypercritical supporters in the world. Butcher and Malpas have been here four months and in those four months TB has gone from being the Messiah we've all been waiting for to the Antichrist out to destroy us.

Hibernian's a classic case of a chronically-dysfunctional football club. I've see a few in my time, and the cure, like it or not, has always been a change of owner and a complete clear-out of the suits first, then a new manager (possibly), then new and improved playing-staff.

Player after player plays well for his club; he comes to Hibs and his form/fitness/both nosedive; he moves on, and suddenly he finds his enthusiasm, fitness and game again.

Seven years of famine - look for the guys who've been around all seven years and in control. Messrs Farmer and Petrie.

While you can't forget what both these men have done for the club, more than 20 years have passed since farmer came in to save the club. A long time in anyone's book but in football especially.

[Broken Gnome]

Maybe too much pressure?

In that case it would be far more of a positive than people make out. And he suggestion is that the culture at Hibs is 'rotten'.

[Jones28]

In that case it would be far more of a positive than people make out. And he suggestion is that the culture at Hibs is 'rotten'.

50 shiny pence to the person to put their finger on what exactly is "rotten" at the club. As far as I'm concerned there is something inherently wrong with a club who's supporters would rather we finished a place lower down in the league

[Saorsa]

http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2785081.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Terry-Butcher-2785081.pnghttp://www.heraldscotland.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/400xY/2014/3/23590546.jpg

[blackpoolhibs]

50 shiny pence to the person to put their finger on what exactly is "rotten" at the club. As far as I'm concerned there is something inherently wrong with a club who's supporters would rather we finished a place lower down in the league

I dont know exactly what's wrong, as the OP says we seem to bring in other teams better players, but they do more than often seem to fail when they play for us? :confused:

I'm with Doddie, the only real constant is the owner and his puppet, and for me i dont see any real leadership, no dynamic person driving the club forward.

It as you say seems to have given us a new breed of fan who's expectations are a lot lower than mine are. :rolleyes:

That in my opinion has gone towards the apathy that exists with a large percentage of the fans, some who still go and others who have gone maybe never to return?

[Twa Cairpets]

Last night Clancy came on for St Johnston after 20 minutes and lasted the game out, the same player who was injured for months and we released to go to our main rival for the top six spot !. Added to that we have no cover for full backs if we have injuries, sometimes i do wonder if they think things through at ER.

This is simply not true.
The player was released, and St J took a punt on him.
If the best argument you have to put forward for some kind of mystical "players cant play at Hibs" is Tim Clancy I'd suggest you are on very thin ice. I don't think there were many "oooh, there's a risk letting Clancy go" amongst the fans, were there...?

[Billychaotic182]

This is simply not true.
The player was released, and St J took a punt on him.
If the best argument you have to put forward for some kind of mystical "players cant play at Hibs" is Tim Clancy I'd suggest you are on very thin ice. I don't think there were many "oooh, there's a risk letting Clancy go" amongst the fans, were there...?

Ok I will take your point ad give you David Wotherspoon

[Jones28]

Ok I will take your point ad give you David Wotherspoon

He's hardly been given the new lease of life that most of us expected has he? It's not like when Sproule went to Ross county and couldn't stop scoring.

[Billychaotic182]

He's hardly been given the new lease of life that most of us expected has he? It's not like when Sproule went to Ross county and couldn't stop scoring.

Disagree most saint fans love him and most media coverage can't understand why we let him go

[Twa Cairpets]

I don't buy into this.

Hibs does not make good players poor. I'm genuinely struggling to think of many players who would fall into this category over any meaningful timeframe, and I suspect a lot of this becoming accepted wisdom is that it is simply good old fashioned confirmation bias.

Which players in particular are we referring to?

Liam Craig - from what I can see he's always been an up and down kind of player - certainly thats what Saints fans tell me. Heffernan - he's not had a terrible start at all - scored goals, been injured, hardly played - thats hardly him being destroyed by Hibs, is it? Who else? I cant think of anyone who has set the heather on fire elsewhere. In addition, what about the likes of Sparky? Surely if we really were "rotten to the core" he'd not be banging them in for Celtc after a 7 figure transfer? Claros was pretty good.

If someone else wants to put forward some other examples of players who have inarguably been stand outs at their previous clubs then been unutterable, persistent keech at ER please name them. If I have forgotten a raft of players in this category then I'll hold my hands up, but I can't.

The truth is, and this is where wistful glances back to the (allegedly) halcyon days of Tom Hart are meaningless, we simply can't afford to take the genuinely top echelon players from our rivals. We couldn't afford GMS from the Arabs for example, and arguably now couldn't afford Billy McKay or Stevie May. Thats not Hibs being rotten, thats the basic, economic truth, like it or not.

The board have made some poor managerial appointments, but this tedious bashing of everything and everyone at Hibs is just that. Tedious. We simply must give Butcher time and support. While there is to my mind a need to freshen the board, any malaise that exists stretches undeniably to the supporters who don't half like a moan. Its not settling for medocrity, its understanding what supporting a team like Hibs is about.

[Jones28]

Disagree most saint fans love him and most media coverage can't understand why we let him go

I have never heard anyone say they don't understand why we let him go. I liked him when he was at Hibs, doesn't mean to say he was tearing the place up every week, when most certainly wasn't other than his first season here.

[Just_Jimmy]

Back in 2004-2007...

Fletcher only had one foot
Riordan did nothing except score goals
Boozy was hit or miss
Murphy had no pace
Whittaker was never a fullback
Jones was a bombscare
Blah Blah...

What do we have now?

[greenpaper55]

I don't buy into this.

Hibs does not make good players poor. I'm genuinely struggling to think of many players who would fall into this category over any meaningful timeframe, and I suspect a lot of this becoming accepted wisdom is that it is simply good old fashioned confirmation bias.

Which players in particular are we referring to?

Liam Craig - from what I can see he's always been an up and down kind of player - certainly thats what Saints fans tell me. Heffernan - he's not had a terrible start at all - scored goals, been injured, hardly played - thats hardly him being destroyed by Hibs, is it? Who else? I cant think of anyone who has set the heather on fire elsewhere. In addition, what about the likes of Sparky? Surely if we really were "rotten to the core" he'd not be banging them in for Celtc after a 7 figure transfer? Claros was pretty good.

If someone else wants to put forward some other examples of players who have inarguably been stand outs at their previous clubs then been unutterable, persistent keech at ER please name them. If I have forgotten a raft of players in this category then I'll hold my hands up, but I can't.

The truth is, and this is where wistful glances back to the (allegedly) halcyon days of Tom Hart are meaningless, we simply can't afford to take the genuinely top echelon players from our rivals. We couldn't afford GMS from the Arabs for example, and arguably now couldn't afford Billy McKay or Stevie May. Thats not Hibs being rotten, thats the basic, economic truth, like it or not.

The board have made some poor managerial appointments, but this tedious bashing of everything and everyone at Hibs is just that. Tedious. We simply must give Butcher time and support. While there is to my mind a need to freshen the board, any malaise that exists stretches undeniably to the supporters who don't half like a moan. Its not settling for medocrity, its understanding what supporting a team like Hibs is about.

Ah thats it, blame the fans because they are not happy with the dross on show.

[easty]

Ah thats it, blame the fans because they are not happy with the dross on show.

He didnt.

[greenpaper55]

Yes he did "any malaise that exists stretches undeniably to the supporters who don't half like a moan."

[The Modfather]

After reading some of the comments about Heffernan on the "Butcher's Comments" thread, it has finally nudged me over the edge into asking a question that's been frustrating me for a significant amount of time but still I can't find an answer.

What is it about players that either come to Hibs or leave Hibs? Indulge me here. What I mean is, we seem to get some good, decent players into Hibs over the last few years and from what I can see, seem to turn them average at best. Same with decent players we let go. Players that have seemed ok for us then leave and join other clubs seem to find a new lease of life.

For me Heffernan is a good example. Seemed to be one of Killie's best players on average, then he signs for us and is now mediocre (not my opinion btw, think he needs more games but I digress).

So what is it about Hibs that has this affect on players? :confused: Apologies if this has been asked before but its bewildered me for some time and I may have missed the conversation.

Perhaps one aspect that has to be questioned is the coaching? We have a fantastic platform in East Mains, yet lack the basics we have all pointed out for years. I have never seen a manager of another club have to come out and admit they can't take throw ins, and another admitting having to impliemnt a mid season fitness schedule. Have we taken EM for granted and expected it to make a difference without having the people in place to make full use of it?

Our scouting "network" has also been a shambles. Do we do enough due dilligence on players? Of course ability and potential are key factors, but so should the make up of the player. Professionalisim, drive, how they would fit into the (non existant) culture of the squad etc.

Throw in a potential acceptance of mediocraty from the top and the frustration of the fans having paid top dollar for little or no return for years. The result being, players/managers, thoguh no fault of their own in some cases, are judged on hitting the ground running. When they don't, for the ones not strong enough willed to handle it, they go into their shell, which makes it seem like groundhog day for the fans and a vicious cycle continues.

[Kato]

For me one or two players who have a bit more character about them would allow other players to play better. We have no leader on the park, no one you could say he can be relied upon to perform every game and to urge the others to up their performance. If things go wrong we go into our shell and there is no one on the park boot backsides. Liam Craig is a good player but the responsibility of being seen as captain doesn't seem to suit him. Aberdeen have Flood and Robson for example who have loads of experience and don't let things get to them. Hopefully we identify and sign people of their calibre come the summer.

[stevejordan]

After reading some of the comments about Heffernan on the "Butcher's Comments" thread, it has finally nudged me over the edge into asking a question that's been frustrating me for a significant amount of time but still I can't find an answer.

What is it about players that either come to Hibs or leave Hibs? Indulge me here. What I mean is, we seem to get some good, decent players into Hibs over the last few years and from what I can see, seem to turn them average at best. Same with decent players we let go. Players that have seemed ok for us then leave and join other clubs seem to find a new lease of life.

For me Heffernan is a good example. Seemed to be one of Killie's best players on average, then he signs for us and is now mediocre (not my opinion btw, think he needs more games but I digress).

So what is it about Hibs that has this affect on players? :confused: Apologies if this has been asked before but its bewildered me for some time and I may have missed the conversation.

I Have posted this kind of question before and no one can come up with an answer as to why this happens my best guess is bad management we have had poor quality management for the last 5 years lets hope Terry can turn the tide.

[easty]

Yes he did "any malaise that exists stretches undeniably to the supporters who don't half like a moan."

I guess thats open to interpretation then, that doesnt look to me like he's blaming the fans for our situation just now.

[whiskyhibby]

Ah thats it, blame the fans because they are not happy with the dross on show.

No, but I guess that playing at Hibs brings pressure, particularly at home games where we have far larger crowds than most of our rivals and fans with perhaps more modest expectations, our issue I guess is exactly what a alphas highlighted the other day, we have talented players but the mental aspect of their game is what needs working on. You need players that can take the abuse, think f@@k you ya clown, and get on with showing the fans shouting abuse that they are wrong.......


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Twa Cairpets]

Ah thats it, blame the fans because they are not happy with the dross on show.

So, out of all my post the one thing you choose to focus on is selectively interpreted and then quote mined out of context?
Great. That'll certainly help move the discussion forward.

Here's your earlier post

I am old enough to remember when another Tom was running Hibs-Tom Hart, the difference from then and now is like night and day. When Hart took over you could feel his dynamism and love for the club not to mention his spending power as well and it was obvious that he had great plans for the club and we were on an upward curve. We are run by people who have many other business interests and you get the feeling that Hibs are way down their agenda . i think their motto is"as long as does not lose money" then they are happy to bumble along for ever . The question is what do we do about it if anything, the fans patience can only be stretched for so long but the powers that be seem intent on testing it to the limit

1) I'm old enough to remember Tom Hart too, including chants of "Hart must go" and "sack the board". I think I'm right in saying also he was chairman when we got relegated, a good few years after he took over. Might be wrong on this but I don't think so. If I am right you have different definition of upward curve to me.
2) I'm pretty sure Petries full time occupation is Hibs.
3) As a general motto. lets not lose money is a pretty good thing (and before you say it I now we don't support a balance sheet) but it is a business and unless we have a very benevolent sugar daddy, then it is the only way to run a club.
4) I hate "the powers that be" phrase. Its so servile.

[superfurryhibby]

:top marksI am old enough to remember when another Tom was running Hibs-Tom Hart, the difference from then and now is like night and day. When Hart took over you could feel his dynamism and love for the club not to mention his spending power as well and it was obvious that he had great plans for the club and we were on an upward curve. We are run by people who have many other business interests and you get the feeling that Hibs are way down their agenda . i think their motto is"as long as does not lose money" then they are happy to bumble along for ever . The question is what do we do about it if anything, the fans patience can only be stretched for so long but the powers that be seem intent on testing it to the limit.

To be balanced. Tom Hart took over and soon after appointed Turnbull. We enjoyed four or five years from a team that was arguably the best seen at ER since the Famous Five era before decline set in. BY the end of the seventies we were relegated and every asset on the field was flogged off. Enthusiasm soon dampens when the wallet takes the hit, other business interests or not. In the end it would seem that Tom Hart lost his way and cashed in before selling up?

[patlowe]

Someone mentioned John Rankin earlier and I think he is a good example of some of the issues we have seen at ER over recent years. I disagree with the notion that we are crying out for someone like him but the fact is that he fulfills a function at Dundee United very well and is surrounded by some very talented players, who play with pace and power around about him. If he came straight into this Hibs team I'm pretty sure he'd quickly become one of the boo boys again. Conversely, I reckon a guy like Taiwo, who is a pretty run of the mill footballer that does the simple things well, would fit quite nicely into the Rankin role in the Dundee United midfield, allowing the more elegant and skillful players to flourish.

What I'm getting at is that I don't believe we ruin players, I think a major factor in the failure of our players to perform is a result of poor management and a lack of strategy when it comes to transfer policies and personnel. Now I'm sure there is an element of luck to all this, I doubt a guy like McNamara began with an exact vision of how all his individual players would fit into that Dundee United side. However, his players have a clear role to play in the team and they carry out a distinct style of play succesfully.

It's very easy to do in hindsight but I look at some of the signings we have made in recent years (Agogo, O'Connor, Vine, Craig, Collins, Thornhill to name just a few), not to mention the way our players have been crowbarred into all manner of positions and formations. You have to wonder, what was the strategy? How did those managers envisage these players helping us develop an identity or style of playing? I suspect that we've had poor performances from a lot of these guys because they were signed with no plan and put on to the park with no plan. We've had a litany of new managers that have come in, got rid of the old lot, only to repeat the whole scattergun approach all over again.

[superfurryhibby]

Someone mentioned John Rankin earlier and I think he is a good example of some of the issues we have seen at ER over recent years. I disagree with the notion that we are crying out for someone like him but the fact is that he fulfills a function at Dundee United very well and is surrounded by some very talented players, who play with pace and power around about him. If he came straight into this Hibs team I'm pretty sure he'd quickly become one of the boo boys again. Conversely, I reckon a guy like Taiwo, who is a pretty run of the mill footballer that does the simple things well, would fit quite nicely into the Rankin role in the Dundee United midfield, allowing the more elegant and skillful players to flourish.

What I'm getting at is that I don't believe we ruin players, I think a major factor in the failure of our players to perform is a result of poor management and a lack of strategy when it comes to transfer policies and personnel. Now I'm sure there is an element of luck to all this, I doubt a guy like McNamara began with an exact vision of how all his individual players would fit into that Dundee United side. However, his players have a clear role to play in the team and they carry out a distinct style of play succesfully.

It's very easy to do in hindsight but I look at some of the signings we have made in recent years (Agogo, O'Connor, Vine, Craig, Collins, Thornhill to name just a few), not to mention the way our players have been crowbarred into all manner of positions and formations. You have to wonder, what was the strategy? How did those managers envisage these players helping us develop an identity or style of playing? I suspect that we've had poor performances from a lot of these guys because they were signed with no plan and put on to the park with no plan. We've had a litany of new managers that have come in, got rid of the old lot, only to repeat the whole scattergun approach all over again.


Possibly the most succinct and clear analysis of what has been going wrong at ER for many years now. Well said Pat. Now could you provide a few pointers to assist in how the underlying issues are addressed?

To think there are guys on big salaries at ER and fail to grasp this rather fundamental problem.

[Pete]

I don't buy into this.

Hibs does not make good players poor. I'm genuinely struggling to think of many players who would fall into this category over any meaningful timeframe, and I suspect a lot of this becoming accepted wisdom is that it is simply good old fashioned confirmation bias.

Which players in particular are we referring to?

Liam Craig - from what I can see he's always been an up and down kind of player - certainly thats what Saints fans tell me. Heffernan - he's not had a terrible start at all - scored goals, been injured, hardly played - thats hardly him being destroyed by Hibs, is it? Who else? I cant think of anyone who has set the heather on fire elsewhere. In addition, what about the likes of Sparky? Surely if we really were "rotten to the core" he'd not be banging them in for Celtc after a 7 figure transfer? Claros was pretty good.

If someone else wants to put forward some other examples of players who have inarguably been stand outs at their previous clubs then been unutterable, persistent keech at ER please name them. If I have forgotten a raft of players in this category then I'll hold my hands up, but I can't.

The truth is, and this is where wistful glances back to the (allegedly) halcyon days of Tom Hart are meaningless, we simply can't afford to take the genuinely top echelon players from our rivals. We couldn't afford GMS from the Arabs for example, and arguably now couldn't afford Billy McKay or Stevie May. Thats not Hibs being rotten, thats the basic, economic truth, like it or not.

The board have made some poor managerial appointments, but this tedious bashing of everything and everyone at Hibs is just that. Tedious. We simply must give Butcher time and support. While there is to my mind a need to freshen the board, any malaise that exists stretches undeniably to the supporters who don't half like a moan. Its not settling for medocrity, its understanding what supporting a team like Hibs is about.

Totally agree. We aren't "rotten to the core" and there's nothing wrong with us at all.

I'm sorry but this is just more introverted, negative drivel.

[patlowe]

Possibly the most succinct and clear analysis of what has been going wrong at ER for many years now. Well said Pat. Now could you provide a few pointers to assist in how the underlying issues are addressed?

To think there are guys on big salaries at ER and fail to grasp this rather fundamental problem.

:greengrin As I said, it's maybe a bit too easy for us fans to be wise in hindsight and condense years of problems into a few sentences. Let's just hope Butcher has a plan!

[McPhisto2]

Totally agree. We aren't "rotten to the core" and there's nothing wrong with us at all.

I'm sorry but this is just more introverted, negative drivel.

I didn't mean the post to be negative, it was merely an observation on my part. To me it was something that was evident in a number of examples.
I genuinely think Butcher/Malpas are the men who can make us better. I've gone along with previous appointments with no negative sentiments and have accepted it was their time to go. I just wanted to canvass opinion based on a theory of mine and was prepared to be shot down if people thought it was a bunch of rubbish.

I agree that "Rotten to the core" is a little strong, I don't agree with that at all, for what its worth :agree:

[Pete]

I didn't mean the post to be negative, it was merely an observation on my part. To me it was something that was evident in a number of examples.
I genuinely think Butcher/Malpas are the men who can make us better. I've gone along with previous appointments with no negative sentiments and have accepted it was their time to go. I just wanted to canvass opinion based on a theory of mine and was prepared to be shot down if people thought it was a bunch of rubbish.

I agree that "Rotten to the core" is a little strong, I don't agree with that at all, for what its worth :agree:

We'll you opened the door and let the drivel in.:greengrin

To be honest, a lot of it is a case of the grass being greener. For every negative example you can probably find one that contradicts this theory that there's something wrong. Players both improve and deteriorate when they leave us and the same happens when they join us. It happens to every club.

Look at Fletcher, Brown, Whittaker, Murphy etc...that to me is the "Hibernian effect".

[Kaff]

I don't buy into this.

Hibs does not make good players poor. I'm genuinely struggling to think of many players who would fall into this category over any meaningful timeframe, and I suspect a lot of this becoming accepted wisdom is that it is simply good old fashioned confirmation bias.

Which players in particular are we referring to?

Liam Craig - from what I can see he's always been an up and down kind of player - certainly thats what Saints fans tell me. Heffernan - he's not had a terrible start at all - scored goals, been injured, hardly played - thats hardly him being destroyed by Hibs, is it? Who else? I cant think of anyone who has set the heather on fire elsewhere. In addition, what about the likes of Sparky? Surely if we really were "rotten to the core" he'd not be banging them in for Celtc after a 7 figure transfer? Claros was pretty good.

If someone else wants to put forward some other examples of players who have inarguably been stand outs at their previous clubs then been unutterable, persistent keech at ER please name them. If I have forgotten a raft of players in this category then I'll hold my hands up, but I can't.

The truth is, and this is where wistful glances back to the (allegedly) halcyon days of Tom Hart are meaningless, we simply can't afford to take the genuinely top echelon players from our rivals. We couldn't afford GMS from the Arabs for example, and arguably now couldn't afford Billy McKay or Stevie May. Thats not Hibs being rotten, thats the basic, economic truth, like it or not.

The board have made some poor managerial appointments, but this tedious bashing of everything and everyone at Hibs is just that. Tedious. We simply must give Butcher time and support. While there is to my mind a need to freshen the board, any malaise that exists stretches undeniably to the supporters who don't half like a moan. Its not settling for medocrity, its understanding what supporting a team like Hibs is about.

Well said.

Under TB we're a strange team as I watched my second live game with him in charge against Ross County and, although it had a little bit of an end of season feel to it, my family all enjoyed a lively performance with Haynes providing a spark up front and Stanton creative flair in the middle. At 2-0 it looked like we were going to steam roller them 4 or 5 and if the disallowed goal (i was nearly in line with it in sect 44 and to me it was clearly over) then I have no doubts we would have won comfortably. Of course they go up the other end and score from the free kick and we're left holding on a bit under pressure, being the team we are, low on confidence.
However reading the press you would have thought we had done a smash and grab for the 3 pts, don't really blame Adams as he will possibly be sweating on his job and more likely trying to make his players feel better about their own performance and the confidence factor for his team.
Fair enough but then on the back of that we have the Killie and DUtd performances which just did not build on any feelgood from the County game.
It just has to be a lack of confidence and I also think TB lacks a little trust in the squad so sometimes (last night?)we just don't set up to have a go at a potential win. Hopefully after a good pre season and signings he will handle things more like his ICT days. I certainly want him to be given time to sort things out.

[greenpaper55]

So, out of all my post the one thing you choose to focus on is selectively interpreted and then quote mined out of context?
Great. That'll certainly help move the discussion forward.

Here's your earlier post


1) I'm old enough to remember Tom Hart too, including chants of "Hart must go" and "sack the board". I think I'm right in saying also he was chairman when we got relegated, a good few years after he took over. Might be wrong on this but I don't think so. If I am right you have different definition of upward curve to me.
2) I'm pretty sure Petries full time occupation is Hibs.
3) As a general motto. lets not lose money is a pretty good thing (and before you say it I now we don't support a balance sheet) but it is a business and unless we have a very benevolent sugar daddy, then it is the only way to run a club.
4) I hate "the powers that be" phrase. Its so servile.

1)Aye we got relegated at the end of his tenure but that was after giving us the best team and many years of enjoyment i have ever seen at ER.
2)Rod has many directorships, some with Farmers other companies.
3) We have been run as tight as a ducks jacksi for years and we missed relegation by the skin of our teeth a couple of seasons ago, teams with a third of our budget regularly finish above us.
4)Tough if you don't like the phrase "the powers that be" servile my erse !.

[Twa Cairpets]

1)Aye we got relegated at the end of his tenure but that was after giving us the best team and many years of enjoyment i have ever seen at ER.
2)Rod has many directorships, some with Farmers other companies.
3) We have been run as tight as a ducks jacksi for years and we missed relegation by the skin of our teeth a couple of seasons ago, teams with a third of our budget regularly finish above us.
4)Tough if you don't like the phrase "the powers that be" servile my erse !.

So you're happy with a plan that culminates in relegation after a few years of relative success. Now, who do that remind me of? If you think such success - given what followed in the 80s and beyond - is worth it, then, again, we'll probably need to agree to disagree.

I stand corrected on RP. I believe however that (at least 3-4 years ago,when I knew someone who worked in the office) he is effectively full time at ER. If he isn't then I agree he should be.

Actually, ignoring the OF and our soon-to-be-evaporated chums, over the last ten years I think we've averaged about 6th, there's been about two teams above us with arguably lower budgets. I believe though, the margin of difference in budget is not massively impact full on quality of player. Far more important is the quality of manager and that's where we've failed since mogga, I think.

Don't get touchy about the phrase - I just don't like it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Well said.

Under TB we're a strange team as I watched my second live game with him in charge against Ross County and, although it had a little bit of an end of season feel to it, my family all enjoyed a lively performance with Haynes providing a spark up front and Stanton creative flair in the middle. At 2-0 it looked like we were going to steam roller them 4 or 5 and if the disallowed goal (i was nearly in line with it in sect 44 and to me it was clearly over) then I have no doubts we would have won comfortably. Of course they go up the other end and score from the free kick and we're left holding on a bit under pressure, being the team we are, low on confidence.
However reading the press you would have thought we had done a smash and grab for the 3 pts, don't really blame Adams as he will possibly be sweating on his job and more likely trying to make his players feel better about their own performance and the confidence factor for his team.
Fair enough but then on the back of that we have the Killie and DUtd performances which just did not build on any feelgood from the County game.
It just has to be a lack of confidence and I also think TB lacks a little trust in the squad so sometimes (last night?)we just don't set up to have a go at a potential win. Hopefully after a good pre season and signings he will handle things more like his ICT days. I certainly want him to be given time to sort things out.

A sensible post IMHO. You should post more, Kaff!

[WhileTheChief..]

What does 'rotten to the core' even mean??

From my point of view I think the problem lies with the turnover of players. Too many of them have simply passed through ER and made no contribution at all. All the loans and short term deals mean that players have little affinity with the club and in some cases probably don't really care too much.

I find it difficult to identify with the team. In the past, i got to 'know' players, what they were like, what they could do etc. Nowadays they play a handful of games and are then moved on. So I can't get too excited when guys like Thornhill, Done or Pallson get signed for example. Even the better loanees don't really interest me as they do nothing for the future of our club. Watmore may be decent and go on to have a future in the game for example but after a few games here he will be gone and quickly forgotten.

I think it's why I tend to enjoy watching Stevenson, Hanlon, Harris etc a bit more, at least they care.

So what I'd like to see is TB bring in 4 or 5 experienced players on decent length contracts. Build a good core down the middle of the side on 3 or 4 year contracts and then tinker around the edges. Players can then get used to each other and whatever system TB wants them to play to.

[Ronniekirk]

What does 'rotten to the core' even mean??

From my point of view I think the problem lies with the turnover of players. Too many of them have simply passed through ER and made no contribution at all. All the loans and short term deals mean that players have little affinity with the club and in some cases probably don't really care too much.

I find it difficult to identify with the team. In the past, i got to 'know' players, what they were like, what they could do etc. Nowadays they play a handful of games and are then moved on. So I can't get too excited when guys like Thornhill, Done or Pallson get signed for example. Even the better loanees don't really interest me as they do nothing for the future of our club. Watmore may be decent and go on to have a
future in the game for example but after a few games here he will be gone and quickly forgotten.

I think it's why I tend to enjoy watching Stevenson, Hanlon, Harris etc a bit more, at least they care.

So what I'd like to see is TB bring in 4 or 5 experienced players on decent length contracts. Build a good core down the middle of the side on 3 or 4 year contracts and then tinker around the edges. Players can then get used to each other and whatever system TB wants them to play to.

Once had an apple that was rotten to the core It was too soft ,a discoloured brown when it should of been green and it didn't look good and when you tasted it it was putrid Didn't enjoy the experience .Does that help

[Kaff]

A sensible post IMHO. You should post more, Kaff!

Haha thanks H&A. I can only get to 5 or 6 games a season and I do find it hard to comment exactly on things when you can't be at the actual game. That's why I highlighted the RC game as anyone unable to be there yet read the reports would have a totally different opinion on what we produced as a team, it cost us, as a family about £300 to get back and fore to that game yet all of us were happy with the performance that day and never felt we didn't get value for money (in a Scottish football context).
Although there is huge room for improvement I'm happy to let TB get on with it

[Greencore]

The fans pressurizing the management team and players to mold into type of footballers they are not and expecting too much from one person to another

The pressure at being at a big club. lets face it we are no east stirling or a st mirren, we are located in the second biggest city/town in Scotland, large stadium and training centre.

or maybe it is none of this, maybe it is just the fact Scottish football is dead, and no team outwith the old firm show consistency in retaining a high place or playing in Europe, because of lack of monies from the clubs because the ticket pricing is so expensive. the food and merch too. We needed a rebrand of Scottish football, i believe it is going in the right direction with the introduction of the lowland league. with promotion and relegation from league two. but i believe money is a big part in all this, think about it, Aberdeen, Dundee hibs and motherwell fans probably feel the same on this, Aberdeen even more due to there history. once Scottish football gets the chance it needs from reduced ticket pricing and more interaction with fans then maybe there is a hope. but for now no.

This is just my opinion and not a bitch at anyone on here, so i don't expect a bitchy smart as$ response. my opinion isn't up for debate, if You don't like it, boohoo.

[Cameron1875]

The poster who talked about transfer strategy was spot on. We seem to sign loads of players without figuring out how they are going to fit into the team and if they are suited to us.

The current midfield for example as 3 Defensive Mids : Taiwo, Thomson, Tudor Jones
2 Centre Mids: Craig, Robertson
2 Attacking centre mids: Cairney, Stanton


So therefore we have 7 players trying to get into 2 or 3 positions. Massive waste of resources and leaves us with only Harris, Watmore, and Stevenson as wide players because Hibs have blown the budget.

I'm not saying these players are all bad players, its just often they get asked to do what they aren't capable of doing e.g. Craig and Robertson ending up out wide = poor performances = confidence shattered = dropped. Seems to be a never ending cycle!

[lord bunberry]

The only thing rotten at easter road is our choice of managers and the players these managers have brought to the club. Every club can make signings that don't work out it doesn't mean it's the clubs fault. I can't think of many players who failed at hibs that I would have taken back after they left.

[edinburghhibee]

I don't buy into this. Hibs does not make good players poor. I'm genuinely struggling to think of many players who would fall into this category over any meaningful timeframe, and I suspect a lot of this becoming accepted wisdom is that it is simply good old fashioned confirmation bias. Which players in particular are we referring to? Liam Craig - from what I can see he's always been an up and down kind of player - certainly thats what Saints fans tell me. Heffernan - he's not had a terrible start at all - scored goals, been injured, hardly played - thats hardly him being destroyed by Hibs, is it? Who else? I cant think of anyone who has set the heather on fire elsewhere. In addition, what about the likes of Sparky? Surely if we really were "rotten to the core" he'd not be banging them in for Celtc after a 7 figure transfer? Claros was pretty good. If someone else wants to put forward some other examples of players who have inarguably been stand outs at their previous clubs then been unutterable, persistent keech at ER please name them. If I have forgotten a raft of players in this category then I'll hold my hands up, but I can't. The truth is, and this is where wistful glances back to the (allegedly) halcyon days of Tom Hart are meaningless, we simply can't afford to take the genuinely top echelon players from our rivals. We couldn't afford GMS from the Arabs for example, and arguably now couldn't afford Billy McKay or Stevie May. Thats not Hibs being rotten, thats the basic, economic truth, like it or not. The board have made some poor managerial appointments, but this tedious bashing of everything and everyone at Hibs is just that. Tedious. We simply must give Butcher time and support. While there is to my mind a need to freshen the board, any malaise that exists stretches undeniably to the supporters who don't half like a moan. Its not settling for medocrity, its understanding what supporting a team like Hibs is about.

The players that I would say were decent players at other clubs and were poor with hibs are:

Mark brown - smashing keeper at ICT moved to Celtic and was terrible here

Buzz smith - again looked a very assured keeper at Motherwell went south before coming to hibs and was shocking.

Stephen glass - some player for the dons moved to Newcastle then Watford before coming to hibs and never really set the heather alight.

Liam miller - great prospect at Celtic moved to man utd then Sunderland we get him and he didn't seem to have anything special about him.

Ricardo vas te - apart from his derby goal IMO struggled for form at hibs and is now a premiership player at west ham.

Clayton Donaldson - great potential before we signed him did ok at hibs to begin with then fell away now scores almost weekly for brentford.

Just a few that I believe fit this category. We have however also enhanced players careers since they moved to ER players like Anthony stokes, sparky, agathe, so it works both ways.

The reason I believe we continue to fall short is because of the constant turn over of players and management. The best clubs in the world all have a core element of players who have lived and breathed that club for years. Your barca, real, Chelsea, bayern, juve all have players who can boast being at the club for nearly a decade, and within that core is a leader. Chelsea - terry, barca - xavi / iniesta, juve - Buffon you get my point.

Now I realise there is no way on this earth we can keep a player half as good as any of these players that's not what I'm saying however it's not good a new player joining a team that has bought 7/8 other players who will be thrown into the starting lineup first game of the season nobody really knowing each other's game or weaknesses. I believe we have the management team now who can steady the ship and bring us out the other end but we as a support need to be patient and give terry and his team two seasons to build the team he wants that won't happen in just two or three windows.

This of course is all just in my opinion.

[RIP]

So you're happy with a plan that culminates in relegation after a few years of relative success. Now, who do that remind me of? If you think such success - given what followed in the 80s and beyond - is worth it, then, again, we'll probably need to agree to disagree.

I stand corrected on RP. I believe however that (at least 3-4 years ago,when I knew someone who worked in the office) he is effectively full time at ER. If he isn't then I agree he should be.

Actually, ignoring the OF and our soon-to-be-evaporated chums, over the last ten years I think we've averaged about 6th, there's been about two teams above us with arguably lower budgets.

The question about Rod isn't whether he eats, sleeps, breathes Hibs. Those active in LWT, met him face to face at ER, Malmo, St Pat's Church, Dan McMichael etc are in absolutely no doubt that he runs the club with a passion, even though he has a quiet, measured demeanor. I'm also convinced it's a 24/7 labour of love. No question for me about his dedication to the cause.

For many the questions are:-


Does he try and do too many jobs (Chair, CEO, Football Director, SPL Board, SFA Board)
He's had his hand on the tiller for 17 years - is it time to hand over the reigns?
Would we benefit from a new CEO or Football Director to re-vitalise the club after several successive bottom six seasons


Always feel a bit disloyal asking these questions but if I can get an annual performance review every year - why not the Chairman? :greengrin
Ros stepped back from Exec duties in 2008 but stepped back in 2 years ago to cut admin costs

[eggbamyasi]

I don't buy into this.

Hibs does not make good players poor. I'm genuinely struggling to think of many players who would fall into this category over any meaningful timeframe, and I suspect a lot of this becoming accepted wisdom is that it is simply good old fashioned confirmation bias.

Which players in particular are we referring to?

Liam Craig - from what I can see he's always been an up and down kind of player - certainly thats what Saints fans tell me. Heffernan - he's not had a terrible start at all - scored goals, been injured, hardly played - thats hardly him being destroyed by Hibs, is it? Who else? I cant think of anyone who has set the heather on fire elsewhere. In addition, what about the likes of Sparky? Surely if we really were "rotten to the core" he'd not be banging them in for Celtc after a 7 figure transfer? Claros was pretty good.

If someone else wants to put forward some other examples of players who have inarguably been stand outs at their previous clubs then been unutterable, persistent keech at ER please name them. If I have forgotten a raft of players in this category then I'll hold my hands up, but I can't.

The truth is, and this is where wistful glances back to the (allegedly) halcyon days of Tom Hart are meaningless, we simply can't afford to take the genuinely top echelon players from our rivals. We couldn't afford GMS from the Arabs for example, and arguably now couldn't afford Billy McKay or Stevie May. Thats not Hibs being rotten, thats the basic, economic truth, like it or not.

The board have made some poor managerial appointments, but this tedious bashing of everything and everyone at Hibs is just that. Tedious. We simply must give Butcher time and support. While there is to my mind a need to freshen the board, any malaise that exists stretches undeniably to the supporters who don't half like a moan. Its not settling for medocrity, its understanding what supporting a team like Hibs is about.

Got to say I agree with all your posts on this thread . Exactly how I think about this topic . Well written too .
One thing I feel contributes too problems, as well as high turn over of players is how long a lot of fans give the managers we have . Its just fact through out football history world wide, managers need time need a few seasons too create a team , to build players/team like lots of people discribe they want hibs too have .only exceptions are mega clubs man city chelsea etc that are ready made and or have cash to buy anyone anytime . I just really hope we as a club give butcher his full contract and really back him as fans and let him build a solid quality team that challenges for cups and euro places . I fear though going by so many on this site and at games that seem to want pretty much instant success this wont happen .

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