ICT Results This Season - With And Without Butcher and Malpas

[Mikey]

A couple of chaps along from me were doing their dinger at TB and MM yesterday so I thought it might be worth looking to see how ICT have fared this season.

In terms of league games their record under Butcher and Malpas in the first part of the season was P12 W8 D1 L3.

Since they left ICT's record is P14 W5 D4 L5.

ICT were second in the table when they left and they're now 5th in the table, 10 points off second (although they do have 2 games in hand).

TB and MM got them to the QF of the League Cup and they went on to grab victory from the jaws of defeat in the semi final against the worst Hearts side ever. (FACT. End of :greengrin )

And today they got horsed out of the Scottish Cup at home.

That tells me that TB and MM do actually know what they're doing :wink:

So how's about we give them a bit of support. And if you don't want to support them you could at least lay off the criticism until they've had a reasonable chance!!

[#FromTheCapital]

Agree completely, people expecting instant turnaround when it's just not going to happen with this squad. If we're in a similar position come Christmas this year then it's time to be concerned. I'm fairly confident that won't be the case though.

[Oscar T Grouch]

A couple of chaps along from me were doing their dinger at TB and MM yesterday so I thought it might be worth looking to see how ICT have fared this season.

In terms of league games their record under Butcher and Malpas in the first part of the season was P12 W8 D1 L3.

Since they left ICT's record is P14 W5 D4 L5.

ICT were second in the table when they left and they're now 5th in the table, 10 points off second (although they do have 2 games in hand).

TB and MM got them to the QF of the League Cup and they went on to grab victory from the jaws of defeat in the semi final against the worst Hearts side ever. (FACT. End of :greengrin )

And today they got horsed out of the Scottish Cup at home.

That tells me that TB and MM do actually know what they're doing :wink:

So how's about we give them a bit of support. And if you don't want to support them you could at least lay off the criticism until they've had a reasonable chance!!

What he said, TB & MM will be a success at Hibs, we just need to get behind then.

[jeffers]

And PF had an even better record albeit in Ireland. I don't care what TB & MM did at ICT only what they achieve at Hibs and so far I have been underwhelmed. However as far as this season is concerned it can't finish soon enough. I look forward to the start of next season when they've had a summer transfer window, 'cos clearly they are unable to achieve anything with the players they currently have at their disposal.

[Mikey]

And PF had an even better record albeit in Ireland. I don't care what TB & MM did at ICT only what they achieve at Hibs and so far I have been underwhelmed. However as far as this season is concerned it can't finish soon enough. I look forward to the start of next season when they've had a summer transfer window, 'cos clearly they are unable to achieve anything with the players they currently have at their disposal.

You do recognise that their form has tailed off quite a bit since those two left though?

And they were given time to get ICT into that position.

[jeffers]

You do recognise that their form has tailed off quite a bit since those two left though?

And they were given time to get ICT into that position.

Yes of course I do Mikey, but you could argue that has a lot to do with who succeeded them, which tbh I thought was a strange appointment. My point is it's not what they did achieve at ICT it's what they achieve at Hibs and so far it's not been particularly impressive. But of course I will give them a chance, I am nowhere close to writing them off, I just expected from such an experienced management team, even with our current squad, better.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

And PF had an even better record albeit in Ireland. I don't care what TB & MM did at ICT only what they achieve at Hibs and so far I have been underwhelmed. However as far as this season is concerned it can't finish soon enough. I look forward to the start of next season when they've had a summer transfer window, 'cos clearly they are unable to achieve anything with the players they currently have at their disposal.


General point here (not aimed directly at you)...

I think "underwhelmed" should be part of a word bingo on Hibs.net and attract a small donation to the Dnipro Appeal. So many cliches over the years it's become like a mantra trotted out at random periods but usually on managerial appointment, player signings etc.

Under normal circumstances more would heed the be patient message. Being kicked in the balls one too many times has had a drip-drip effect. I hope our management team is given time.

[The Sea-gull]

A couple of chaps along from me were doing their dinger at TB and MM yesterday so I thought it might be worth looking to see how ICT have fared this season.

In terms of league games their record under Butcher and Malpas in the first part of the season was P12 W8 D1 L3.

Since they left ICT's record is P14 W5 D4 L5.

ICT were second in the table when they left and they're now 5th in the table, 10 points off second (although they do have 2 games in hand).

TB and MM got them to the QF of the League Cup and they went on to grab victory from the jaws of defeat in the semi final against the worst Hearts side ever. (FACT. End of :greengrin )

And today they got horsed out of the Scottish Cup at home.

That tells me that TB and MM do actually know what they're doing :wink:

So how's about we give them a bit of support. And if you don't want to support them you could at least lay off the criticism until they've had a reasonable chance!!

Agree with you 100% but if they don't hit the ground running earlyish next season once they have their own men signed up then they will get flack. Unfair on them really but due to what we have had to put up with in recent years we have become a very impatient and success starved support.

[Hibercelona]

Honestly, I think it has more to do with how poor Yogi is as a manager.

I was gobsmacked when they appointed him. The man doesn't have the slightest clue and would ruin any team.

[Ozyhibby]

I'll start by saying that I think Butcher is the man for the job. I think he will get it right for next season. He has to.
However, let's not get away from the fact he has had a difficult start. We have not improved at all since he took over. The January transfer window was very poor even by our standards. All this can be excused by the fact that be is just in the door and needs a little bit of time to work out what he needs.
Come the end of the season, that time is over.
We need to be a lot better next season. A lot better.
After being told by most on here what great foundations Pat was putting in place at the club (although no one ever quantified what this meant), I'm surprised we have not kicked on properly under Terry?
So as usual with Hibs we are all looking forward to next season. What I really want is to be looking forward to the next game.
If come next sept/oct I start hearing Hibs fans saying that Terry needs more time and that he laying the foundations for a great team next season then I'll know that I am surrounded by people who are happy with constant mediocrity.
The time to start improving is now, Terry, today.

[Ozyhibby]

Agree with you 100% but if they don't hit the ground running earlyish next season once they have their own men signed up then they will get flack. Unfair on them really but due to what we have had to put up with in recent years we have become a very impatient and success starved support.

Impatient? Hibs fans?
After watching the last 7 years and still showing up in the numbers they are I think we are the most patient in the world.

[Hibercelona]

Impatient? Hibs fans?
After watching the last 7 years and still showing up in the numbers they are I think we are the most patient in the world.

:top marks

[J-C]

Honestly, I think it has more to do with how poor Yogi is as a manager.

I was gobsmacked when they appointed him. The man doesn't have the slightest clue and would ruin any team.


Was just about to post this, Yogi talks a good game, all this hard work crap but when you boil it all down, he's just a naff manager.

[Dashing Bob S]

Fenlon took Calderwoods championship level side and made it bottom six premiership. Butcher is trying to make it top six in his first half season and kick on from there next season.

[Mikey]

So now we've established that ICT's fall down the table is down to Yogi, do TB and MM get any credit for getting ICT up there in the first place?

[jeffers]

So now we've established that ICT's fall down the table is down to Yogi, do TB and MM get any credit for getting ICT up there in the first place?

Of course they do and deservedly so. If they do the same at Hibs they will get credit for that. So far their tenure has been a disappointment.

[Ronniekirk]

What he said, TB & MM will be a success at Hibs, we just need to get behind then.
Yep it's that simple but seven years of frustration have left it's mark and think some people are still being unrealistic about hitting ground running at start of season ?that will depend on who comes in and when and how Mutch time the Management Team have to get them set up in the way they want them to play .Still think Top four has to be aim ,but Celtic Aberdeen and Dundee United will all Strengthen .So we need to be looking to dislodge st.Johnstone Inverness and Motherwell to be fourth which is achievable . anything else is dependent on that flying start .

[Ricky Bobby]

Fed up with managers getting five minutes to get it right before all the 'experts' in the ground start booing or shouting for change, if your not in for the long haul stay away.

[jeffers]

Fed up with managers getting five minutes to get it right before all the 'experts' in the ground start booing or shouting for change, if your not in for the long haul stay away.

I can only speak for myself but I wasn't expecting miracles with the appointment of TB & MM, but I was expecting to see some improvement. Tbh if PF had emerged from the dug out during the first half yesterday I wouldn't have been surprised. I get that they need time to bring in their own players and they will get my full support in doing so. I just feel as the experienced management team they are we should be seeing better.

[HoboHarry]

Never ceases to amaze me that those who tell us that the new management team are underachieving, also fail to mention that TB stated when he and MM came to Hibs that it would be an 18 month project. Funny that......

[Ricky Bobby]

I can only speak for myself but I wasn't expecting miracles with the appointment of TB & MM, but I was expecting to see some improvement. Tbh if PF had emerged from the dug out during the first half yesterday I wouldn't have been surprised. I get that they need time to bring in their own players and they will get my full support in doing so. I just feel as the experienced management team they are we should be seeing better.


My point was not aimed at yourself and i agree some of the performances have been disappointing to say the least, but we are going nowhere if we keep changing management teams, apart from anything else it must be costing the club a fortune. For me Butcher must be given five years to make it work. His record elsewhere suggests he will get it right. Just for the record he would not have been my first choice for the job, but he's here so let's stick with him.

[Ozyhibby]

My point was not aimed at yourself and i agree some of the performances have been disappointing to say the least, but we are going nowhere if we keep changing management teams, apart from anything else it must be costing the club a fortune. For me Butcher must be given five years to make it work. His record elsewhere suggests he will get it right. Just for the record he would not have been my first choice for the job, but he's here so let's stick with him.

Five years?
Put me down for a season ticket in 2019 then. :-)
McInnes turns Aberdeen round in 4 months but we have to wait 5 years?

[Hibercelona]

Fed up with managers getting five minutes to get it right before all the 'experts' in the ground start booing or shouting for change, if your not in for the long haul stay away.

Nobody expects him to "get it right" after "five minutes". So i'm not sure who has told you that, because I haven't heard that from anyone.

What people do expect however is a rise from the players. When Butcher first arrived, we actually got a bit of a rise and even managed to string 3 wins in a row together. What went wrong after that? It's as if the players suddenly went backwards again. Why couldn't Butcher keep it going?

I don't think i'm being harsh. I think it's a question that needs an answer.

[HoboHarry]

Nobody expects him to "get it right" after "five minutes". So i'm not sure who has told you that, because I haven't heard that from anyone.

What people do expect however is a rise from the players. When Butcher first arrived, we actually got a bit of a rise and even managed to string 3 wins in a row together. What went wrong after that? It's as if the players suddenly went backwards again. Why couldn't Butcher keep it going?

I don't think i'm being harsh. I think it's a question that needs an answer.
TB has made it pretty clear that the squad is going to be overhauled in the summer. The answer you seek is right there if you care to look....

[Hibercelona]

TB has made it pretty clear that the squad is going to be overhauled in the summer. The answer you seek is right there if you care to look....

But he had this very squad playng well at the start. Why is it that they're suddenly incapable of playing well, when he had them playing well to begin with?

That's what I don't understand.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Five years?Put me down fr a season ticket in 2019 then. :-)


McInnes turns Aberdeen round in 4 months but we have to wait 5 years?

And yet McInnes credits Paw Broon for laying the foundations...

If we're really going to use Aberdeen as an example we need to look at the bigger picture there. Basket case of a club for many a year SkovDahl, Paterson, Miller (x2) and they've still to win anything (although I expect them to beat ICT but Dons fans in the cold light of day will cite you the cup humiliations so maybe not a foregone conclusion)...

[mjhibby]

Five years?
Put me down for a season ticket in 2019 then. :-)
McInnes turns Aberdeen round in 4 months but we have to wait 5 years?

Mcinnes had a better squad to start with and while he has done very well it wouldnt surprise me if a few teams overtook them next season. Bar mccall at well no team has been consistently near the top part of the league.

[Jonnyboy]

Impatient? Hibs fans?
After watching the last 7 years and still showing up in the numbers they are I think we are the most patient in the world.

Actually we've probably been impatient for all seven of those years :wink:

[hibs4thecup1988]

Mcinnes had a better squad to start with and while he has done very well it wouldnt surprise me if a few teams overtook them next season. Bar mccall at well no team has been consistently near the top part of the league.

:agree:

The way Hibs fans expect instant success is beyond me. Yes I moan and shout at games, but I wish that certain managers had been given time to get teams sorted.

TB and MM should be given at least a year to get their players and style in before we start saying they can't do it.

[Ricky Bobby]

Actually we've probably been impatient for all seven of those years :wink:



there is no probably about it

[HoboHarry]

:agree:

The way Hibs fans expect instant success is beyond me. Yes I moan and shout at games, but I wish that certain managers had been given time to get teams sorted.

TB and MM should be given at least a year to get their players and style in before we start saying they can't do it.
One year isn't anything like enough. I have stated a few times (and the Saturday afternoon bampots continue to ignore the point) that TB himself said it was an 18 month project before things started to take shape. One year only gives him one major transfer window (the January window is next to useless for all teams) and simply cannot be done. The expectations from some people on this form are absurd.

[Ronniekirk]

And yet McInnes credits Paw Broon for laying the foundations...

If we're really going to use Aberdeen as an example we need to look at the bigger picture there. Basket case of a club for many a year SkovDahl, Paterson, Miller (x2) and they've still to win anything (although I expect them to beat ICT but Dons fans in the cold light of day will cite you the cup humiliations so maybe not a foregone conclusion)...
After United humping ICT. 5 0 think Aberdeen would need to freeze on the day with the weight of expectation for Inverness to turn them over What's Mckays scoring record thus season under Butcher versus McKay under Yogis Stewardship .

[hibs4thecup1988]

One year isn't anything like enough. I have stated a few times (and the Saturday afternoon bampots continue to ignore the point) that TB himself said it was an 18 month project before things started to take shape. One year only gives him one major transfer window (the January window is next to useless for all teams) and simply cannot be done. The expectations from some people on this form are absurd.

Notice I did say at least a year. After a year you should at least see an improvement. Yesterday was the first time in a long time me and my lad left the ground feeling as though we had been entertained, first time my boy has said "wow dad that was an amazing game". Made me think twice about renewing.

I appreciate it is a LONG process but the summer window is going to be big this year - lets see how much Petrie backs him eh...

[AgentDaleCooper]

Fenlon took Calderwoods championship level side and made it bottom six premiership. Butcher is trying to make it top six in his first half season and kick on from there next season.

think that's a fair and accurate analysis.

[HoboHarry]

Notice I did say at least a year. After a year you should at least see an improvement. Yesterday was the first time in a long time me and my lad left the ground feeling as though we had been entertained, first time my boy has said "wow dad that was an amazing game". Made me think twice about renewing.

I appreciate it is a LONG process but the summer window is going to be big this year - lets see how much Petrie backs him eh...
I really wasn't having a go at you. If TB says 18 months then I will go with that before I utter a word of frustration or complaint. Frustrates the hell out of me the amount of crap that is posted on here though. We collectively laugh at some of the guff posted on Yak-back but we also have our fair share of the thinking impaired fans.

[Ricky Bobby]

Nobody expects him to "get it right" after "five minutes". So i'm not sure who has told you that, because I haven't heard that from anyone.

What people do expect however is a rise from the players. When Butcher first arrived, we actually got a bit of a rise and even managed to string 3 wins in a row together. What went wrong after that? It's as if the players suddenly went backwards again. Why couldn't Butcher keep it going?

I don't think i'm being harsh. I think it's a question that needs an answer.


You are obviously not sitting anywhere near me, as there are a large minority of fans who do seem to expect change straight away. These are the same fans that somehow believe that booing a misplaced pass helps the players.
In terms of the improvement when Butcher took over, it has just been the bounce that some teams get when a new manager comes in. they are all barring Haynes the same players that have been under achieving for a while.
We have obviously got some of that last managerial appointments wrong, but there is no way they have all been duds. If you look at any team that consistently performs well the common denominator is managers who have been in the position for a while.

[ScottB]

The fall of ICT shows how important players believing in theirselves and their manager is, they had a great squad culture up there, something that let them punch above their weight. We clearly lack this, and Yogi seems to have already destroyed it!

[Paisley Hibby]

Honestly, I think it has more to do with how poor Yogi is as a manager.

I was gobsmacked when they appointed him. The man doesn't have the slightest clue and would ruin any team.

That's what I was thinking too. :agree:

[TornadoHibby]

:agree:

The way Hibs fans expect instant success is beyond me. Yes I moan and shout at games, but I wish that certain managers had been given time to get teams sorted.

TB and MM should be given at least a year to get their players and style in before we start saying they can't do it.

I think that the bulk of Hibs fans expect their players and teams to be:-

1. totally committed;
2. possess and regularly demonstrate (at a minimum) good competence levels of the basic footballing skills;
3. have a hard working energetic game ethic;
4. be as fit as any professional footballer needs to be to play the game at the level they play, achieving (as a minimum and regularly) the fitness level(s) of the best teams in the same League;
5. be composed on and off the ball;
6. press opponents quickly when we lose possession;
7. have the confidence and determination to turn adversity into positivity quickly when adversity arises; and
8. be team players, prepared to support team mates wherever necessary.

This is a reasonable "starter for ten" required attributes list I think although doubtless we will see those that think long serving ST holders should just continue to subject themselves to regular terrible team and individual performances week after week, month after month and year after year if Hibs players only have two or three of these attributes! :confused:

Supporting a team consistently requires the supporter to regularly enjoy what he or she is paying for! :confused:

If you are going to do anything in life, it is surely fundamental to success there, that you train and prepare yourself and then commit yourself to doing so as well as you possibly can up and in excess of reasonable benchmark standards! :agree:

Too many of our players over the past few years neither qualify in terms of these "required characteristics" nor in terms of their general attitude and that has been and still is a major problem for Hibs IMO! :agree:

[matty_f]

Nobody expects him to "get it right" after "five minutes". So i'm not sure who has told you that, because I haven't heard that from anyone.

What people do expect however is a rise from the players. When Butcher first arrived, we actually got a bit of a rise and even managed to string 3 wins in a row together. What went wrong after that? It's as if the players suddenly went backwards again. Why couldn't Butcher keep it going?

I don't think i'm being harsh. I think it's a question that needs an answer.

I think you need to look at the injury list since those games we were winning to understand why the run hasn't been sustained.

We have been without (from the top of my head, so excuse any I inaccuracies here please) Mcgivern, Nelson, Hanlon, Craig ( suspension rather than injury), Robertson, Harris, Cairney, Watmore, Thomson...

Bear in mind that often one of those players missing out has necessitated a reshuffle of a number of positions and changes to formation, along with some players just not being up to it, and you have (imho) a huge factor in why we lost that momentum.

[Liberal Hibby]

I think you need to look at the injury list since those games we were winning to understand why the run hasn't been sustained.

We have been without (from the top of my head, so excuse any I inaccuracies here please) Mcgivern, Nelson, Hanlon, Craig ( suspension rather than injury), Robertson, Harris, Cairney, Watmore, Thomson...

Bear in mind that often one of those players missing out has necessitated a reshuffle of a number of positions and changes to formation, along with some players just not being up to it, and you have (imho) a huge factor in why we lost that momentum.

A factor that also hampered Fenlon.

Butcher and Malpas played the same starting eleven for ICT first dozen or so games and did the same for the first few games at Hibs - but even then you have to wonder whether that was his first choice team. Cairney has been pretty crucial to Hibs performance under Fenlon and it looks the same under Butcher.

[The Sea-gull]

So now we've established that ICT's fall down the table is down to Yogi, do TB and MM get any credit for getting ICT up there in the first place?

I don't think anyone has ever not credited TB and MM for the good job they did at ICT, have they?

I also don't think there are any fans not willing to support TB and MM at Hibs, at least for now anyway. Seems generally recognised, even more so since they have come in, that this squad of players at Hibs does not have the balance or the quality to be much better than an aeverage or slightly below average premier league team. A change of manager with limited opportunity to make any changes to the team has not changed our fortunes so it tells you much more about the players we have at the club than the managers.

Problem we now have is that Aberdeen, a similar sized club to our in a similar state to us up until recently have turned things around very quickly and why shouldn't we be able to do the same. OK, the situations are perhaps not directly comparable as their new man took them over 2/3s of the way through the season and ours took over 1/3 into the season meaning their new man did not have long to be judged on the previous man's players. Also, I think Aberdeen had a few better players already there than we currently have which has helped their new manager. Butcher has a larger rebuilding job on his hands.

I'm not saying we should expect a replica of what has gone on there this season but to say Butcher needs 2, 3, 4 or even 5 years to turn things round at Hibs is the lack of balls we have displayed for years as a club. We should have been top 6 this season, that should have been the aim. We might still make it and if we do then I won't regard it as a good season, I'll regard it as the minimum progress I would have expected. Next season I'll be looking for a comfortable top 6 finish and better cup performances (draw dependent obviously) as an absolute minimum. We should also be looking to oust Motherwell, ICT and St Johnstone (might even do that this season) from their spots in the league. They'll all probably lose players and we should be spending on good players.

If Dundee United and Aberdeen keep their players they look like they will be very decent teams next year and they may even add. Dundee United in particular could be excellent as they have a number of young players who will have had another season under their belts and will only surely get better as a team.

It may be difficult to keep pace with those two next year but I don't see why top 4 should not be considered an achievable target and getting their would leave us in a good position to capatilise the following year when United and possibly Aberdeen will lose some of their players.

[silverhibee]

TB has made it pretty clear that the squad is going to be overhauled in the summer. The answer you seek is right there if you care to look....

Do you have any quotes from TB saying about the overhaul in the summer.

[silverhibee]

And yet McInnes credits Paw Broon for laying the foundations...

If we're really going to use Aberdeen as an example we need to look at the bigger picture there. Basket case of a club for many a year SkovDahl, Paterson, Miller (x2) and they've still to win anything (although I expect them to beat ICT but Dons fans in the cold light of day will cite you the cup humiliations so maybe not a foregone conclusion)...

Were we not told Fenlon had laid the foundations for the next manager coming in to Hibs.

[The Sea-gull]

Were we not told Fenlon had laid the foundations for the next manager coming in to Hibs.

If you compare what McInnes had there already to what Butcher has inherited then McInnes had better players to start with.

Langfield and Williams are about the same, Williams maybe a wee bit better. Anderson, Reynolds and Consindine are all better CBs than anything we have. Ryan Jack is also a promising young player.

We don't really have any players that you can compare to McGinn, Hayes and Pawlett. Maybe Harris with Pawlett at a push though Pawlett is a bit older has streaked away from this season

They now have Rooney who is clearly a better striker than anything we have but apart from him there is not much in it striker wise.

All McInnes has really done is bring in two real good characters in midfield, a couple of loan defenders and a good striker. The rest were there already and have responded to him and the new signings and upped their game.

Who knows though, maybe this time next year we could be looking at Hibs and thinking we are decent with 5 or 6 new players bringing out the best in Hanlon, Forster, Harris, Craig, Robertson etc and we will be saying that Pat laid decent enough foundations which Terry took to the next level. Given our foundations are clearly not as good as the ones McInnes inherited it is not realistic to expect as big an impact from Terry but I don't think it is wrong to think that he can have us top 4 next season.