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View Full Version : "so have you made any progress under Butcher"



bigstu
01-03-2014, 02:31 AM
I keep getting asked this question, I'm not sure how to answer!

Stax
01-03-2014, 02:46 AM
I keep getting asked this question, I'm not sure how to answer!
If your indecicive, I'd go with your gut instinct.

.Sean.
01-03-2014, 04:45 AM
No. We should always be picking up points at home against the likes of Dundee United. Must do better.

weonlywon6-2
01-03-2014, 06:49 AM
we started of not to badly and there was so much more fight in games at first.in the derby they just kept getting the ball and charging upfield with it,cairney being the prime example.
we have now fallen back to the same old lost look again, roll on next season cause this one has been dire

macca70
01-03-2014, 07:24 AM
No!! That performance last night was absolutely dreadful, the worst under any manager for a while.

But you'll get folk that will claim that this isn't 'Butchers Team' and wait til he brings in his own players in the summer.

Heisenberg
01-03-2014, 07:57 AM
But you'll get folk that will claim that this isn't 'Butchers Team' and wait til he brings in his own players in the summer.

And what exactly is wrong with that? It's the truth. This team is shocking. We've got a couple of good young players surrounded by rubbish. We need players in who buy into what Butcher wants and we'll get that in the summer. This current team are hopeless and the only way they know how to get points is every man behind the ball and defend like Fenlon had them doing.

jeffers
01-03-2014, 08:23 AM
And what exactly is wrong with that? It's the truth. This team is shocking. We've got a couple of good young players surrounded by rubbish. We need players in who buy into what Butcher wants and we'll get that in the summer. This current team are hopeless and the only way they know how to get points is every man behind the ball and defend like Fenlon had them doing.

Of course he deserves the chance to bring in his own players, but as a very experienced manager he should be doing a damn sight better with the players he currently has at his disposal. Some of his tactics and player selection I find difficult to understand. Anyone who is claiming he will get things right must surely be doing so on the basis of what he did at ICT not on what they have seen from his time with us. I am not writing him off at all, but so far I am very disappointed in what I have seen from him so far.

lucky
01-03-2014, 08:25 AM
Butcher needs to start getting results or he will be away by AGM

Aldo
01-03-2014, 08:35 AM
Butcher needs to start getting results or he will be away by AGM

Tongue and cheek comment I hope Lucky!!

Scouse Hibee
01-03-2014, 08:49 AM
No!! That performance last night was absolutely dreadful, the worst under any manager for a while.

But you'll get folk that will claim that this isn't 'Butchers Team' and wait til he brings in his own players in the summer.


Just how many players do we think Butcher will bring in during the summer? That was awful last night, I actually looked at the bench to see if Fenlon had returned as it was the same old devoid of ideas lump it to the lone frontman football for most of the game. ****** awful football from TB regrdless of whose players they are!

Jim44
01-03-2014, 09:11 AM
Butcher has to take a big share of the blame for the team's performance. He's been at ER long enough to have stamped some authority on the team and club. Time is still on the Butcher apologists' side but time will tell and hopefully we'll escape second bottom and make some headway next season.

Keith_M
01-03-2014, 09:53 AM
What I'd like to know is, what happened to the team he had just a few weeks after he arrived? We were going really well, enough to be dissapointed about only drawing at Tannadice. They seem to have reverted to type, and the Manager has to take this share of the blame.

However, this is a long term project so I'm not going to get too despondent just now.

Hibercelona
01-03-2014, 09:58 AM
I know improvements take time, but you expect to at least see small gradual changes.

Based on last night, NOTHING HAS CHANGED. If Butcher wasn't standing at the dugout, anybody could have convinced me that Fenlon was back.

Hibercelona
01-03-2014, 09:59 AM
However, this is a long term project so I'm not going to get too despondent just now.

5 year plan init?

Started about 6 years ago.

blackpoolhibs
01-03-2014, 10:07 AM
We have exactly the same players except 3 loan deals that Fenlon had. Initially we had a bit of an upswing due to getting the ball forward earlier, but the same players who underperformed under Fenlon are now doing exactly as they did under him, playing to their capability's.

This squad of players are very poor, they lack ability which is the main reason we are where we are. A huge clearout is required, and another rebuilding project is needed, but thats fine because we made progress and Pat was a lovely man.

:rolleyes:

Gustavo Fring
01-03-2014, 10:07 AM
No!! That performance last night was absolutely dreadful, the worst under any manager for a while.

But you'll get folk that will claim that this isn't 'Butchers Team' and wait til he brings in his own players in the summer.

you must have a very short memory lol

Hibercelona
01-03-2014, 10:15 AM
We have exactly the same players except 3 loan deals that Fenlon had. Initially we had a bit of an upswing due to getting the ball forward earlier, but the same players who underperformed under Fenlon are now doing exactly as they did under him, playing to their capability's.

This squad of players are very poor, they lack ability which is the main reason we are where we are. A huge clearout is required, and another rebuilding project is needed, but thats fine because we made progress and Pat was a lovely man.

:rolleyes:

I fail to believe that any players at any level, playing to their capabilities, could possibly play that poorly.

There was nothing in the game to suggest that these players were even applying any level of effort at all.

You don't have to be a cracking player to make a few short passes and spread the play a little. Christ, school children having a kick about at lunch time can even manage that feet.

I don't think we strung 3 or 4 passes together at all last night. It was just a launch forward at every opportunity, even when players were under no pressure to do so.

The players maybe lack ability, but performances like last night go well beyond a lack of ability.

Expecting Rain
01-03-2014, 10:30 AM
When the present management team arrived they were handicapped one way or another by previous managerial decisions at various levels of management and not in most cases intentionally. Unfortunately finances will dictate how quickly we progress or deteriorate, hopefully with time the best of the youngsters will be complemented by shrewd signings next season, it is crucial that we sign good experienced players rather than experienced players...................the biggest mistake from Butcher and Malpas in my opinion was to bring in loan players just before the cup tie, it sent out a message to the others that they are basically only here till their contracts runs out and will be moved on, true but not very inspiring. Did anybody here really think that Hibs were going to improve with the present personel in such a short space of time?
Next season should see a significant improvement but probably not enough and not quickly enough for those who just want to criticise because they are fed up.The club needs to be more upfront in their media communications in order to make their plans more transparent and to educate the fans to respect that a lot of our youngsters are miles away from being the finished article and are still in the process of learning what it takes to influence a game even when they are not invidually playing well.
All the best players are sitting in the stands or even offering their words of wisdom in newspaper columns, add to that, advice with the benefit of hindsight on your televisions, don`t join them! :flag:

J-C
01-03-2014, 10:32 AM
What amazes me is that even with a different manager, the tactics used were the exact same, hot potato passes then lump forward, no shape or indeed no tactics that I can see.

It's hard to believe we took one of the best attacking midfielders from last season in Craig and have tried to turn him into a holding midfielder, a position made for Thomson who's obviously not quoted by the management. :confused:

McGivern was a signing we all applauded because he put in some good performances last year but the Hibs bug has hit him too and turned into keek.

Two youngsters who showed a lot of promise ( Harris and Forster ) have went backwards at an alarming rate, questions need to be asked what has went wrong here, same could be said for Handling.

Stanton is the one bright spark amongst the dross on display.

I don't mind playing 1 up top as long as the tactics are attacking, hence why 4-2-3-1 is the way we should be playing with the players we have at the club, it would allow the ball to be on the deck and the deep holding mid would protects the back 4.

lord bunberry
01-03-2014, 11:37 AM
Butcher has to take a big share of the blame for the team's performance. He's been at ER long enough to have stamped some authority on the team and club. Time is still on the Butcher apologists' side but time will tell and hopefully we'll escape second bottom and make some headway next season.

Butcher apologists!

Hibs7
01-03-2014, 11:43 AM
Just how many players do we think Butcher will bring in during the summer? That was awful last night, I actually looked at the bench to see if Fenlon had returned as it was the same old devoid of ideas lump it to the lone frontman football for most of the game. ****** awful football from TB regrdless of whose players they are!

I think you will find that DU first goal was lump it up to the front man. Who actually did something with it and scored !!! There is the difference a crap defence and a decent forward who can score.

dunfyhibby
01-03-2014, 12:16 PM
And what exactly is wrong with that? It's the truth. This team is shocking. We've got a couple of good young players surrounded by rubbish. We need players in who buy into what Butcher wants and we'll get that in the summer. This current team are hopeless and the only way they know how to get points is every man behind the ball and defend like Fenlon had them doing.


We we have a couple of young players whether they are all good, I'm not too sure!
Forster has been inept, terrible positional sense, doesn't know when to get tight or back off. Poor
Harris, maybe it's the injury, but has shown nothing since coming back. Weak and looks to have lost his pace. Doesn't beat his defender and delivery poor.
Handling, I'm sorry, just don't see a player there. Runs about but with no effect.
Stanton, looks a prospect, but he needs managed properly. Let's don't hang all our hopes on him. Will need rested at times, but he has ability, no doubt about that!

HFC 0-7
01-03-2014, 12:22 PM
i dont think we have improved but I trust butcher to do something about it. Under Fenlon after performances like that, he would say things like 'there were positives to take from that' and ' the players put in a lot of effort'. Butcher isnt afraid to say when its not good enough and that players arent good enough. I trust him to start the clear out properly, but unlike the previous clearouts from managers, they will be replaced by the correct type of player.

lucky
01-03-2014, 12:24 PM
Tongue and cheek comment I hope Lucky!!

Aye and no. Obviously he needs time to build his team and I'm confident that he will do so. I've already signed up for next season but if this awful football and results continue into next season then he will be tooling by the AGM

OsloHibs
01-03-2014, 12:45 PM
No is the answer.

Aldo
01-03-2014, 12:46 PM
Aye and no. Obviously he needs time to build his team and I'm confident that he will do so. I've already signed up for next season but if this awful football and results continue into next season then he will be tooling by the AGM

Fair dos mate

cabbageandribs1875
01-03-2014, 01:32 PM
2 home wins in the last 11 against dundee utd at ER...shameful

BOB MARLEYS DUG
01-03-2014, 01:36 PM
No.

Jones28
01-03-2014, 01:38 PM
If you'd asked me that after 10 games I would have said yes. The football is much better, we are dangerous going forward and there is commitment and dedication from everyone in a Hibs jersey. We are constricting teams in their own half and our set pieces have improved vastly.

Now however we look devoid of ideas and insist on playing this long ball, hit and hope, lump it up to the lone striker anti-football that is perpetuated by having Michael ****ING Nelson in the back 4, a player with the vision of a bat who couldn't play a 10 yard pass if his life depended on it.

Alex Harris has no confidence about him, Liam Craig has lost all ability and Kevin Thomson - a player who would be ideal in a holding midfield role alongside Taiwo is sitting in the stands. Even Sam Stanton looked poor last night, and christ knows he's been our best player in the past few weeks.

And our throw ins! WTF is going on there? So many times last night we were so static! There was a point where Haynes ran back 25 yards to pick up a throw in from Forster (we lost possession anyway) when there were 3 players he could have thrown it to, except we were easily marked because nobody was moving.

Greencore
01-03-2014, 01:46 PM
No. We should always be picking up points at home against the likes of Dundee United. Must do better.

They are one of Scotland's most young and up coming team with the likes of gauld, makay Steven and Robertson and you expect us to beat them? They are aiming for second we are aiming for 6th.

Thanks for making me laugh though :)

Jones28
01-03-2014, 01:47 PM
Butcher has to take a big share of the blame for the team's performance. He's been at ER long enough to have stamped some authority on the team and club. Time is still on the Butcher apologists' side but time will tell and hopefully we'll escape second bottom and make some headway next season.

Butcher apologists? Really? 3 months and those supporting the manager are already apologists? Get a grip man:rolleyes:

Scouse Hibee
01-03-2014, 03:57 PM
I think you will find that DU first goal was lump it up to the front man. Who actually did something with it and scored !!! There is the difference a crap defence and a decent forward who can score.


The difference is between a pass and a hopeful lump it :wink:

stevejordan
01-03-2014, 04:01 PM
Inital impact was good but we have faded one step forward and two steps back is how i see it at the moment.

Hibercelona
01-03-2014, 04:08 PM
Inital impact was good but we have faded one step forward and two steps back is how i see it at the moment.

It's beem the same with every manager.

The players lift themselves for a few games, then they just canne be bothered anymore.

Sir David Gray
01-03-2014, 04:13 PM
We were showing a lot of promise right up until the 83rd minute of the game up at Tannadice on the 5th January.

I don't think we've played particularly well since then.

clerriehibs
01-03-2014, 04:27 PM
I keep getting asked this question, I'm not sure how to answer!

Respond by asking if the shares have thawed yet.

It's a wind-up question, most likely asked by a yam.

IberianHibernian
01-03-2014, 08:50 PM
We`ve played 27 league games so have played 5 repeat fixtures ( same opposition at same ground ) . Of these 5 , we have done worse in 4 under Butcher . Add the Raith result and the por quality of the play and surely noone can say we`ve made progress ? More the opposite .

weonlywon6-2
01-03-2014, 09:14 PM
We were showing a lot of promise right up until the 83rd minute of the game up at Tannadice on the 5th January.

I don't think we've played particularly well since then.

had this discussion with someone the other day,seem to have lost our fight.
there will be big changes i hope in the summer

HKhibby
01-03-2014, 11:43 PM
i dont think we have improved but I trust butcher to do something about it. Under Fenlon after performances like that, he would say things like 'there were positives to take from that' and ' the players put in a lot of effort'. Butcher isnt afraid to say when its not good enough and that players arent good enough. I trust him to start the clear out properly, but unlike the previous clearouts from managers, they will be replaced by the correct type of player.. Good comment i totally agree with you - another problem is we stuck with Fenlon until we did, if we had got rid of him in the summer last year and brought in TB / MM it may have been different now and The January window is not a good time to any quality into the team, - March onwards should be the time we could possibly get one or two on pre-season contracts if Marsella is doing his scouting correctly, i also agree we have now got a good management team in place, the first for a few years! - maybe now is the time that TF should look at bringing in someone else on the board with a little investment as well, and Petrie maybe move sideways but stay on the board as well.

The Harp Awakes
01-03-2014, 11:50 PM
What amazes me is that even with a different manager, the tactics used were the exact same, hot potato passes then lump forward, no shape or indeed no tactics that I can see.

It's hard to believe we took one of the best attacking midfielders from last season in Craig and have tried to turn him into a holding midfielder, a position made for Thomson who's obviously not quoted by the management. :confused:

McGivern was a signing we all applauded because he put in some good performances last year but the Hibs bug has hit him too and turned into keek.

Two youngsters who showed a lot of promise ( Harris and Forster ) have went backwards at an alarming rate, questions need to be asked what has went wrong here, same could be said for Handling.

Stanton is the one bright spark amongst the dross on display.

I don't mind playing 1 up top as long as the tactics are attacking, hence why 4-2-3-1 is the way we should be playing with the players we have at the club, it would allow the ball to be on the deck and the deep holding mid would protects the back 4.

A big reason why we are struggling IMO. Craig is without doubt being played in the wrong position. He is an attacking, left sided midfielder and needs to be restored to that position. Thomson should play Craig's current role. A fatal error of judgement by our management team which has cost us many points.

matty_f
02-03-2014, 12:08 AM
I don't think Butcher knows his best team yet, or which players he can trust to give a good performance consistently.
To be fair to Butcher, he's not got a lot to pick from and you can see that he's at least trying to give players who have done well one game the chance to do it again the next match. He must be trading his hair out when we have a decent performance and follow it up with 2 or 3 shockers. There were at least 9 players last night who could have no complaints if they never kicked another ball for us on the back of that showing, Butcher doesn't have the luxury of dropping 9 players in one go, so what can he do? He's going to be working them hard in training, he certainly had a reputation for doing that at ict so I can't imagine he's decided to lower the bar at Hibs.
I can't see anything other than a huge clear out in the summer, there's no point in players hanging around if butcher doesn't trust them to play on a match day and none of these players are giving Butcher grounds to trust them.
That's the baffling thing about a performance like that - the players are in the shop window either for new deals at Hibs or at other clubs. None of them will go to a bigger club based on that.

NorthNorfolkHFC
02-03-2014, 12:09 AM
A big reason why we are struggling IMO. Craig is without doubt being played in the wrong position. He is an attacking, left sided midfielder and needs to be restored to that position. Thomson should play Craig's current role. A fatal error of judgement by our management team which has cost us many points.

We're also missing Robertson in my opinion. He is our engine room and his energy has been badly missed.

Hibrandenburg
02-03-2014, 07:16 AM
Anyone know how the Hearts got on? Can't seem to find any news at all.

HFC 0-7
02-03-2014, 10:41 AM
A big reason why we are struggling IMO. Craig is without doubt being played in the wrong position. He is an attacking, left sided midfielder and needs to be restored to that position. Thomson should play Craig's current role. A fatal error of judgement by our management team which has cost us many points.

Disagree re Thomson. If what we have heard is true and he wasn't doing as was asked in training then started arguing with coaching staff then he shouldn't be near the team. We can't keep talking about emptying the trouble makers / players with bad attitudes then ask for them to be playing when things go bad.

craig may be playing crap, but by all accounts seems to have the correct attitude. What does it say to the players if you are asked to have the right attitude but get replaced with someone that doesn't.

I respect butcher for standing by his decision re Thomson even if we are playing mince. It's all about the summer transfer window and next season

Eyrie
02-03-2014, 12:03 PM
Anyone know how the Hearts got on? Can't seem to find any news at all.

They must be doing extremely well, because I just checked the league table and they're currently twenty points clear.

HiBremian
02-03-2014, 12:59 PM
. Good comment i totally agree with you - another problem is we stuck with Fenlon until we did, if we had got rid of him in the summer last year and brought in TB / MM it may have been different now and The January window is not a good time to any quality into the team, - March onwards should be the time we could possibly get one or two on pre-season contracts if Marsella is doing his scouting correctly, i also agree we have now got a good management team in place, the first for a few years! - maybe now is the time that TF should look at bringing in someone else on the board with a little investment as well, and Petrie maybe move sideways but stay on the board as well.

:agree:

It's nice and simple to put everything on this or that manager's shoulders for the performances. But I can't stop thinking about the way we've changed managers these past 4 or 5 years - boot up the erchy for the auld, clear oot and bring in the new. And the timings - either at AGM time or mid-season. Compare that with the way Aberdeen handled the transition from Pa Broon to McInnes - the two of them cooperated, FFS! And McInnes came in 12 months ago with time to prepare for the summer transfer market, when he brought in 9 players. So the January window for Aberdeen was just a top-up opportunity, for us it was desperation time, just like PF two years ago. The difference in results between the Sheep and us this season has a lot to do with that. Or is McInnes so much better a manager than TB? I don't think so.

So no, little progress under Butcher, but then the way he was brought in could have been better handled, and maybe this is a lesson for the future. Or indeed as HKH says, time to bring in smarter heads on the board.

HiBremian
02-03-2014, 01:02 PM
Anyone know how The Hearts got on? Can't seem to find any news at all.

Is that you anticipating another liquidation event there, Paul?

SouthamptonHibs
02-03-2014, 01:54 PM
Nope Fenlon is one of our worst managers ever! Total crap squad! Disgrace off a manager 5-1 and 9-0 (7-0at home). What a ponkerl un defendable! Butcher hopefully will get a war chats in Aug

edwards
02-03-2014, 02:34 PM
The balance of the team is all wrong 4 central defenders across the back four, Craigs performances have been poor since he took over as captain should just give it to Nelson until the end of the season. Harris was pretty poor and Stevenson not much better as they couldn't get any supply to Haynes.
Taiwo is now out and Robertson is injured, Mcpake hasn't returned and Jones is also injured. Everyone complaining about the one forward and punting it up to him if we had decent wide players this wouldn't have to happen in the first place. Most of the bottom six teams are playing the same system.

Terry knows there will have to be big changes come the end of the season, he will have surely worked this out by now.

Needed

Right Back
Central Defender
Left sided midfield player
Right sided midfiel player
Central midfield player [ leader ]
Forwards x 2

Possibly a goalkeeper as well if Ben leaves.

Players who I think will go.

Mcpake
Jones
Cainey
Heffernan
Zoubir
Caldwell
Thomson

This would free up wages for the seven players needed to improve the team. Not seen enough of whatmore can only asses him on the raith game but do like the look of Haynes. If we get two decent wide players we will be able to play with two up front.

basehibby
02-03-2014, 10:45 PM
Butcher apologists? Really? 3 months and those supporting the manager are already apologists? Get a grip man:rolleyes:

:agree: I find the level of panic in some sections of the support alarming - 3 months ago we were all congratulating the board on signing an excellent management team. We saw an improvement in form and application at first but it's faded recently and all of a sudden it seems the bed wetters are out in force.

There's some out there who need to realise that there WILL be nights like Fridays - Dundee Utd ARE a better side than Hibs right now and have been pretty much all season. That means that in order to beat them we'd expect to see our own side play above themselves - sadly it didn't happen on Friday and the better side won - **** happens!

Re progress under Butcher - that'll take time as a big part of the deal is the players on the pitch. There has however been a marked increase in willingness to get the ball forward and take a shot - we seemed to forget that on Fri - hopefully we'll remember again in time for the visit of Motherwell.

SaulGoodman
02-03-2014, 10:47 PM
:agree: I find the level of panic in some sections of the support alarming - 3 months ago we were all congratulating the board on signing an excellent management team. We saw an improvement in form and application at first but it's faded recently and all of a sudden it seems the bed wetters are out in force.

There's some out there who need to realise that there WILL be nights like Fridays - Dundee Utd ARE a better side than Hibs right now and have been pretty much all season. That means that in order to beat them we'd expect to see our own side play above themselves - sadly it didn't happen on Friday and the better side won - **** happens!

Re progress under Butcher - that'll take time as a big part of the deal is the players on the pitch. There has however been a marked increase in willingness to get the ball forward and take a shot - we seemed to forget that on Fri - hopefully we'll remember again in time for the visit of Motherwell.

But, but, but.. Mcinnes managed to get an instant change out of his team! Why can't we get that with Butcher?

Oh wait, Mcinnes had the summer to bring in his own team? Ohhh