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heretoday
19-02-2014, 09:48 PM
Okay we've seen arguably the two top teams in the world making hay against Arsenal and Man City on their own patches.

What makes these guys so good? They're only human after all!

Why can't Hibs do that?

eastterrace
19-02-2014, 09:53 PM
Okay we've seen arguably the two top teams in the world making hay against Arsenal and Man City on their own patches.

What makes these guys so good? They're only human after all!

Why can't Hibs do that?

you need pace and quick thinking and be able to read a game and we dont have anybody like that except maybe stanton who might just become one of those better players in the near future.

SaulGoodman
19-02-2014, 09:53 PM
Money money money

eastterrace
19-02-2014, 09:55 PM
Money money money

oh and this helps as well

Scottie
19-02-2014, 09:56 PM
About £300 million give or take a few £

Hibbyradge
19-02-2014, 09:56 PM
Awareness.

gaz1875
19-02-2014, 09:57 PM
Work rate and pace, we have neither. If you saw Barca yesterday they were all over Man City as soon as they had the ball, right from the keepers possession. Not seen the Arsenal game but my bet is Bayern did the same.

SteveHFC
19-02-2014, 09:58 PM
Money money money

:agree::agree:

TheFamous1875
19-02-2014, 10:09 PM
Wen Butcher first got the Hibs job, he said that he would have Hibs "work as hard" as Barcelona and Bayern, etc. It's a start, at least.

I think we have to understand how important it is to develop our own players. With the knowledge of sports science and the facilities we've now got, we should be having players better than Scott Brown coming through more frequently. Stanton and Harris look like they could maybe be the beginning of this, but it's very early doors.

We should be on our way to a great future. We have the business infrastructure in place, now we need to take the next step, which is to develop players of a high quality, sell them on for a big price (we have previous) and further invest in the development of players. Once this cycle is in motion, we could be in a place to start investing in the first team financially and become a major force in Scottish football.

It's as simple as that (if only it was). This is what we should at least be trying to achieve.


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heretoday
19-02-2014, 10:10 PM
If I might reply to my own thread, I would say that I am always impressed by the way these guys can get a ball under control and pass it off quickly. They instinctively know that there is a man available to pass it to because their teammates are programmed to support them.

That must be down to training. Therefore the coach is the most important figure, no?

brianmc
19-02-2014, 10:13 PM
The ability to pass the ball 10 yards, then move into space to be available for a return pass epitomises Xavi Hernandez's game-and he's pretty much universally acclaimed as the best midfielder of his generation.
Makes you wonder why some bang average SPFL players routinely attempt 50-60 yard "passes" .
Football is a simple game, made difficult by dimwits!

Baldy Foghorn
19-02-2014, 10:13 PM
Undoubtedly money, however all these big teams, play the same football through all age groups. They work on children, so that they can be aware of every position on the pitch, and it stands them in good stead for the future. These teams invest in youth academies, and ensure that their youth get the best possible start and tuition in the game.

TheFamous1875
19-02-2014, 10:16 PM
If I might reply to my own thread, I would say that I am always impressed by the way these guys can get a ball under control and pass it off quickly. They instinctively know that there is a man available to pass it to because their teammates are programmed to support them.

That must be down to training. Therefore the coach is the most important figure, no?

It's the coaching and the fact that these players have the time to gel and instinctively know where to go and what to do. These teams all have a spine that's kept together for years and years (and sometimes longer, from playing as youths). Hibs and most other teams in the world can not financially afford to keep those special kind of players together, hence why it's so hard to build on the foundations set for success.


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Scorrie
19-02-2014, 10:18 PM
Get the youngsters playing football the proper way with good coaching, facilities, and lifestyle education. Ok Bayern have spent big but they have a number of players who have come through the ranks as well.

heretoday
19-02-2014, 10:23 PM
It's the coaching and the fact that these players have the time to gel and instinctively know where to go and what to do. These teams all have a spine that's kept together for years and years (and sometimes longer, from playing as youths). Hibs and most other teams in the world can not financially afford to keep those special kind of players together, hence why it's so hard to build on the foundations set for success.


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That's interesting (said the professor of football). A spine that keeps them together.

TheFamous1875
19-02-2014, 10:27 PM
That's interesting (said the professor of football). A spine that keeps them together.

Are you the professor of football?


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heretoday
19-02-2014, 10:36 PM
Are you the professor of football?


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Yes, I am.

Ronniekirk
19-02-2014, 10:38 PM
Okay we've seen arguably the two top teams in the world making hay against Arsenal and Man City on their own patches.

What makes these guys so good? They're only human after all!

Why can't Hibs do that?
Coaching methods must be part of it and skill base of young players is Sutch that they are taught how to bring ball down touch control and pass .They know where players are going to run to and are specially aware .They are fitter and lifestyle different .

Wotherspiniesta
19-02-2014, 10:39 PM
I really wish we would at least TRY and implement some of the techniques used by Barca, Bayern etc. The standard of our "passing" is an abomination compared to these teams. Barely ever do we see slick, incisive play by Hibs. Sorry to sound like a miserable ******* and I know we won at the weekend, but the playing style offered up at Easter Road is and has been eyebleeding for years. We should be teaching players to create opportunities by getting the ball from the back and PASSING the ball on the deck instead of just lashing it to anybody playing up front.

RN Hibee
19-02-2014, 10:39 PM
I know this isn't really the point of this thread but I'm sure the red card both Arsenal and Man City received played a pretty big part in the way the games played out. On a more Hibs related point I've always wondered myself how there can be such a skill gap at a professional level between players like Messi and Ronaldo and then some of the garbage we've had to endure at our club over the past couple of years.

500miles
19-02-2014, 10:40 PM
These teams have scouting systems and youth acadamies world wide. The net they cast when trying to catch talented youngsters is far larger than Hibs can afford to. And then, when players they missed show ability at other clubs, they take them too.

It's all about the money.

TheFamous1875
19-02-2014, 10:44 PM
Thought I'd post a link to James McDonagh's latest interview, where he talks about implementing a football philosophy that he calls the "Hibs way" through all ages at the academy. http://youtu.be/35L-34Ip0WY


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Wotherspiniesta
19-02-2014, 10:45 PM
I know this isn't really the point of this thread but I'm sure the red card both Arsenal and Man City received played a pretty big part in the way the games played out. On a more Hibs related point I've always wondered myself how there can be such a skill gap at a professional level between players like Messi and Ronaldo and then some of the garbage we've had to endure at our club over the past couple of years.

All it did was give them an excuse.

The sooner the British press realise the gulf in class between the EPL and the Bundesliga/La Liga the better.

Stax
19-02-2014, 10:48 PM
I sometimes feel like like I'm watching a different sport. I'm talking about the English premiership v European football. Obviously money plays a big part, but for all the money sloshing around English football I feel like even Arsenal, City etc are miles behind where the modern game is now. Entertaining or not the high tempo 100 miles an hr EPL doesn't work in Europe or international football any more. Where that leaves us / Scottish football in general I don't know.

heretoday
19-02-2014, 10:48 PM
These teams have scouting systems and youth acadamies world wide. The net they cast when trying to catch talented youngsters is far larger than Hibs can afford to. And then, when players they missed show ability at other clubs, they take them too.

It's all about the money.

Yes but they are just guys at the end of the day. I wonder what the coaches of Bayern or Barca would make of the Hibs squad if they were, amazingly, given exclusive access to them for six months.

truehibernian
19-02-2014, 11:06 PM
Coaching methods must be part of it and skill base of young players is Sutch that they are taught how to bring ball down touch control and pass .They know where players are going to run to and are specially aware .They are fitter and lifestyle different .

I was lucky to have experienced both German and Dutch coaching in my youth career, albeit when very young - the Dutch were ahead of everyone in Europe then and still are now in my opinion. Spain might be 'football rich' just now, but Holland for me, per capita and per league structures, are way ahead in terms of coaching young players and always will be - it's engrained in their coaching systems.

Interestingly though we beat both German and Dutch teams when we played (80's) - it was down to braun, strength and the terribly typical Scottish trait of 'win win win' regardless of technique - in other words, coaches on the sidelines not overly concerned with technique, just 'get into them' !

As Collins said - the ball does the work - and in adulthood the ball always wins against brut strength.

clerriehibs
19-02-2014, 11:23 PM
Get the youngsters playing football the proper way with good coaching, facilities, and lifestyle education. Ok Bayern have spent big but they have a number of players who have come through the ranks as well.

Their ranks being huge, of course.

truehibernian
19-02-2014, 11:29 PM
Their ranks being huge, of course.

Watch a game at Saughton Enclosure any Sunday, listen to the 'coaching' then get back to me - doesn't matter about ranks or 'numbers' - coaching in Scotland is utterly utterly atrocious - hence we have been so poor in Euro and World competitions forever !

Noting also that even with decent players we've never qualified from a group in a major tourney, even when footballing backwaters were not there.

Drink, drugs and poor work rate - that's Scotland's football blight.

clerriehibs
19-02-2014, 11:39 PM
Watch a game at Saughton Enclosure any Sunday, listen to the 'coaching' then get back to me - doesn't matter about ranks or 'numbers' - coaching in Scotland is utterly utterly atrocious - hence we have been so poor in Euro and World competitions forever !

Noting also that even with decent players we've never qualified from a group in a major tourney, even when footballing backwaters were not there.

Drink, drugs and poor work rate - that's Scotland's football blight.

You should write in to James Mcdonaugh with your observations on why his coaching set-up is piss poor.

My comment was a response to someone saying bayern spent big but still brought players through the ranks. of course they do; they will probably screen every potential star of the future in germany, and beyond, from a young age, so of course they're going to unearth some diamonds.

Unseen work
19-02-2014, 11:45 PM
The problem in Scottish football is not the technique side IMO. Although they are superior to me the key points are:
Confidence
Positional awareness/organisation
Creating space/options

It's been coached at a young age to have 3 options available when your on the ball abroad. The movement of players off the ball is IMO one of the most Key aspects to a good team. Knowing when to release the ball and the right position/ angle to create for your team mate so it makes ball retention easier

Football in Scotland is pretty much get the ball foward at pace, very few coaches have the patience to learn or pass on knowledge to their players about creating options and space to receive the ball in.

Confidence abroad is instilled in the players early that they should be confident of receiving the ball in any situation and being comfortable on it, this confidence comes from your team mates making the options aswell tho.
Over here your taught to clear your likes which essentially results in hoofing the ball half the game, again players expect your going to do so so don't create options for you.

Organisation and positional awareness for me as well even at the top flight here it seems the players are unsure when to press the ball, go for the attack or keep the ball. A lot of them run all over the place just trying to make a block instead of staying as a unit which results in them getting played through easily. Again the positional awareness is knowing when your on the ball, is where your team mates are likely to be and for the person without the ball - where is the pass likely to be made and where is the space.

Theirs a lot of pressure in this country to just get up the park as quick as possible but for me were never going to really develop unless we instill this in the players at a young age. Make them go out fearless, it's a hobby for kids so make it enjoyable don't scream at them for trying to take the ball in a area, even if it leads to a mistake

Stax
19-02-2014, 11:47 PM
Watch a game at Saughton Enclosure any Sunday, listen to the 'coaching' then get back to me - doesn't matter about ranks or 'numbers' - coaching in Scotland is utterly utterly atrocious - hence we have been so poor in Euro and World competitions forever !

Noting also that even with decent players we've never qualified from a group in a major tourney, even when footballing backwaters were not there.

Drink, drugs and poor work rate - that's Scotland's football blight.
I think you make good points TH but I have to disagree. There are a lot of poor coaches / misplaced 'enthusiasm' but watching my son playing for his school/club/pro youth over the last few years I genuinely think we're trying to change things to playing the game properly. Miles away from the continent but hopefully things changing for the better. Definitely a lack of funding / thinking from on high though.

The Modfather
19-02-2014, 11:50 PM
Okay we've seen arguably the two top teams in the world making hay against Arsenal and Man City on their own patches.

What makes these guys so good? They're only human after all!

Why can't Hibs do that?

There attitude and professional lifestyle would be my first observation. We've had to specifically address the culture within our own club!

I hope it's in the process of genuinely changing under Butcher, but In the last few years we have been behind most clubs in Scotland for attitude and professional culture never mind looking beyond our own borders.

heretoday
19-02-2014, 11:52 PM
I see absolutely no reason why 11 Scots lads cannot be moulded into a team capable of challenging the best.

It's the coaching. Surely we can teach the guys to trap and pass the ball for F***s sake.

truehibernian
19-02-2014, 11:57 PM
I think you make good points TH but I have to disagree. There are a lot of poor coaches / misplaced 'enthusiasm' but watching my son playing for his school/club/pro youth over the last few years I genuinely think we're trying to change things to playing the game properly. Miles away from the continent but hopefully things changing for the better. Definitely a lack of funding / thinking from on high though.

In isolated cases mate I agree - I work extremely closely with an SFA Academy hence I know it's isolated - juvenile football in this country is 'seeing the light' but sadly buddy it's 20 years too late.

Which is why we won't see a Scottish national side in a tournament worth a sook - unless, as proposed, UEFA relaxes the rules.

I watch youths train every day and they all have the 'Ronaldo' syndrome - they expect it to happen here, they aren't prepared to work for it. It's sadly that simple. Sorry to be so blunt and cutting but it's true - our youth footballers here aren't taught humility, work rate and the perils of drink.

TRC
20-02-2014, 12:16 AM
I always notice with barca esp that, whenever they pass the movement is awesome both from the player that made the pass and the player recieving it they have a real ynderstanding
remember lots of these guys have played together for 5-6 years so they know exactly where one another are on the park.

Stax
20-02-2014, 12:23 AM
In isolated cases mate I agree - I work extremely closely with an SFA Academy hence I know it's isolated - juvenile football in this country is 'seeing the light' but sadly buddy it's 20 years too late.

Which is why we won't see a Scottish national side in a tournament worth a sook - unless, as proposed, UEFA relaxes the rules.

I watch youths train every day and they all have the 'Ronaldo' syndrome - they expect it to happen here, they aren't prepared to work for it. It's sadly that simple. Sorry to be so blunt and cutting but it's true - our youth footballers here aren't taught humility, work rate and the perils of drink.
Sadly you may be right, I think cultural differences are a big part of the problem. But for the record all the folk that decry the xbox generation have to realise there's a lot of young talent out there that love playing football and want to be the best they can be.

johnbc70
20-02-2014, 12:35 AM
In isolated cases mate I agree - I work extremely closely with an SFA Academy hence I know it's isolated - juvenile football in this country is 'seeing the light' but sadly buddy it's 20 years too late.

Which is why we won't see a Scottish national side in a tournament worth a sook - unless, as proposed, UEFA relaxes the rules.

I watch youths train every day and they all have the 'Ronaldo' syndrome - they expect it to happen here, they aren't prepared to work for it. It's sadly that simple. Sorry to be so blunt and cutting but it's true - our youth footballers here aren't taught humility, work rate and the perils of drink.

Maybe if the youngsters actually saw how hard Ronaldo worked at his game and how dedicated he was then they would change their ways. There was a good article last month about him on the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25719657

"Ronaldo was a natural talent, a rough diamond, but he crammed in thousands and thousands of hours of graft to turn himself into the perfect player."

truehibernian
20-02-2014, 12:50 AM
Maybe if the youngsters actually saw how hard Ronaldo worked at his game and how dedicated he was then they would change their ways. There was a good article last month about him on the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25719657

"Ronaldo was a natural talent, a rough diamond, but he crammed in thousands and thousands of hours of graft to turn himself into the perfect player."

My point was John that kids in Scotland but colourful boots, get a tattoo, have stud earrings and expect their feet to suddenly do tricks - Scottish footballers have an incredible ability to inflate their egos yet not expect to work hard - hence we are terrible at football, and nobody will convince me that we are not awful footballers.

In the 80's nepotism ruled in youth football - I witnessed lots of superb talents get overlooked because they didn't play for Salveson, Hutchie or Tynecastle - very very insular world and it still is.

johnbc70
20-02-2014, 12:57 AM
My point was John that kids in Scotland but colourful boots, get a tattoo, have stud earrings and expect their feet to suddenly do tricks - Scottish footballers have an incredible ability to inflate their egos yet not expect to work hard - hence we are terrible at football, and nobody will convince me that we are not awful footballers.

In the 80's nepotism ruled in youth football - I witnessed lots of superb talents get overlooked because they didn't play for Salveson, Hutchie or Tynecastle - very very insular world and it still is.

Sorry meant to add I completely agree with your assessment - just if they only knew how hard someone like Ronaldo worked at his game to be where he is then maybe a few would take notice and change their ways.

I also get your point about how good players are overlooked. In a kind of similar vein I often think that some professional players I see in the SPL these days must have had a few good games when they were 16/17 and have landed pro contracts when they are pretty gash and cannot do the basics right.

B.H.F.C
20-02-2014, 01:21 AM
Practice. They train right. Even though they were playing at The Emirates at night Bayern still did a full training session at Loftus Road in the morning.

The way they want to play is drilled in to them right from the day they join these types of club. Even if that is at 10 years old.

MWHIBBIES
20-02-2014, 04:52 AM
All it did was give them an excuse.

The sooner the British press realise the gulf in class between the EPL and the Bundesliga/La Liga the better.Both games even before the red card, nothing to do with excuses, 10vs11, especially against Barcelona and Bayern makes a massive difference.

weonlywon6-2
20-02-2014, 07:33 AM
Undoubtedly money, however all these big teams, play the same football through all age groups. They work on children, so that they can be aware of every position on the pitch, and it stands them in good stead for the future. These teams invest in youth academies, and ensure that their youth get the best possible start and tuition in the game.


i also think there is a different mindset amongst the players.
i cant imagine messi and like minded players eat rubbish and drink much alcohol.
some.countries can just produce good players year after year,a bit like the all blacks in rugby.

Waxy
20-02-2014, 07:45 AM
Okay we've seen arguably the two top teams in the world making hay against Arsenal and Man City on their own patches.

What makes these guys so good? They're only human after all!

Why can't Hibs do that?Because when we do get A player who can do anything that these guys can do............................celtic buy him.

Hibby Bairn
20-02-2014, 08:05 AM
The problem in Scottish football is not the technique side IMO. Although they are superior to me the key points are:
Confidence
Positional awareness/organisation
Creating space/options

It's been coached at a young age to have 3 options available when your on the ball abroad. The movement of players off the ball is IMO one of the most Key aspects to a good team. Knowing when to release the ball and the right position/ angle to create for your team mate so it makes ball retention easier

Football in Scotland is pretty much get the ball foward at pace, very few coaches have the patience to learn or pass on knowledge to their players about creating options and space to receive the ball in.

Confidence abroad is instilled in the players early that they should be confident of receiving the ball in any situation and being comfortable on it, this confidence comes from your team mates making the options aswell tho.
Over here your taught to clear your likes which essentially results in hoofing the ball half the game, again players expect your going to do so so don't create options for you.

Organisation and positional awareness for me as well even at the top flight here it seems the players are unsure when to press the ball, go for the attack or keep the ball. A lot of them run all over the place just trying to make a block instead of staying as a unit which results in them getting played through easily. Again the positional awareness is knowing when your on the ball, is where your team mates are likely to be and for the person without the ball - where is the pass likely to be made and where is the space.

Theirs a lot of pressure in this country to just get up the park as quick as possible but for me were never going to really develop unless we instill this in the players at a young age. Make them go out fearless, it's a hobby for kids so make it enjoyable don't scream at them for trying to take the ball in a area, even if it leads to a mistake

This is absolutely spot on.

number 27
20-02-2014, 10:21 AM
I think you also have to consider the facilities available. Did you see the state of the Inverness pitch? ER is not much better. Any team would struggle to play fast paced passing football on these pitches and the ones our kids are playing on in public parks etc are miles worse.

We need to be looking at more all weather surfaces, both indoor and outdoor and I also think summer football would make a huge difference, allowing our top teams to play a full season on decent surfaces.

GoldenEagle
20-02-2014, 10:41 AM
The ability to pass the ball 10 yards, then move into space to be available for a return pass epitomises Xavi Hernandez's game-and he's pretty much universally acclaimed as the best midfielder of his generation.
Makes you wonder why some bang average SPFL players routinely attempt 50-60 yard "passes" .
Football is a simple game, made difficult by dimwits!

100%.

There's no player at Hibs (stop s******ing) that can't pass a ball 10-15 yards. The problem is that other players are either told or simply don't have the physical ability to keep on the move when their own team have possession.

The physical ability is within the gift of every player that walks into East Mains. I question how many really want it that bad that they are prepared to spend several hours a day getting into a condition that will progress their game.

I like Terry Butcher and I think results will come but "fear" it will be through forcing other teams into mistakes and playing the percentage game with balls in behind.

Geo_1875
20-02-2014, 10:54 AM
In isolated cases mate I agree - I work extremely closely with an SFA Academy hence I know it's isolated - juvenile football in this country is 'seeing the light' but sadly buddy it's 20 years too late.

Which is why we won't see a Scottish national side in a tournament worth a sook - unless, as proposed, UEFA relaxes the rules.

I watch youths train every day and they all have the 'Ronaldo' syndrome - they expect it to happen here, they aren't prepared to work for it. It's sadly that simple. Sorry to be so blunt and cutting but it's true - our youth footballers here aren't taught humility, work rate and the perils of drink.

Going back many years any half-decent youngster in Scottish football becomes a big fish in a small pond. When they are asked to make the step up to the next level very few of them have the work ethic required to improve. The big problem as I see it is we play competitive football from a very early age while the Europeans treat it as an education. Even the EPL teams aren't investing much in the Academy system. They simply sign up every athlete in their area and hope to find a few footballers.

brian6-2
20-02-2014, 11:45 AM
money my arse.

its a group of players brought together from respective nations that give 2 hoots about football.

spain - great youth prospects, clubs have top notch academys and are willing to spend time nurturing the young players instead of ruining them on full size pitches at the age of 5. There was barca gently bringing the lad Sergi Roberto in at the age of 22. not 16/17/18 like here but schooling him properly and nurturing him the barca way.

germany - dont even have to go into that one but exactly the same as spain.

MWHIBBIES
20-02-2014, 11:51 AM
money my arse.

its a group of players brought together from respective nations that give 2 hoots about football.

spain - great youth prospects, clubs have top notch academys and are willing to spend time nurturing the young players instead of ruining them on full size pitches at the age of 5. There was barca gently bringing the lad Sergi Roberto in at the age of 22. not 16/17/18 like here but schooling him properly and nurturing him the barca way.

germany - dont even have to go into that one but exactly the same as spain.It takes a lot of money to get top notch facilities and coaches to produce these players.

Pretty Boy
20-02-2014, 11:54 AM
I always wonder how Hibs, and other Scottish clubs, have done well in various youth tournaments up to a certain age but fail to see that through to the senior game.

That must be either a coaching issue or a case of prioritising the wrong things at the wrong age.

brian6-2
20-02-2014, 11:55 AM
It takes a lot of money to get top notch facilities and coaches to produce these players.

rubbish.

argentina, brazil, ivory coast, ghana, holland etc etc

all countries that constantly churn out world class players but dont have a bean.

argentina being a great example of that needing money to constantly create world class players is a complete myth.

brian6-2
20-02-2014, 11:56 AM
I always wonder how Hibs, and other Scottish clubs, have done well in various youth tournaments up to a certain age but fail to see that through to the senior game.

That must be either a coaching issue or a case of prioritising the wrong things at the wrong age.

this 100%

Houchy
20-02-2014, 12:01 PM
Money money money

This, this and this.

Hearts proved this by buying the Scottish cup but didn't have the funds to cover the cost, hence their position now. If Petrie shpwed some ambition and bought cech, messi, Suarez, fabregas, hazard etc we'd have a better chance in the league and Scottish cup...Come in Rod, make it happen!!!

jacomo
20-02-2014, 12:06 PM
The ability to pass the ball 10 yards, then move into space to be available for a return pass epitomises Xavi Hernandez's game-and he's pretty much universally acclaimed as the best midfielder of his generation.
Makes you wonder why some bang average SPFL players routinely attempt 50-60 yard "passes" .
Football is a simple game, made difficult by dimwits!

Wonderful player, now in the autumn / winter of his career. He'll be missed.

Tactics vary but the best teams all tend to do two things very well - pressing the opponent when they don't have the ball, and constant movement when they do have the ball. This requires relentless hard work.

Technical ability makes a big difference too!

Peevemor
20-02-2014, 12:07 PM
Two basic things for me that make great players, therefore teams.

1. Being able to use booth feet. How many times do way see a player receiving a pass then spend precious seconds bringing the ball onto his good foot - meanwhile the opposing player who was 10 yards away has closed him down, which leads us onto

2. Knowing what your going to do with the ball before a pass has reached you. Great players don't have to concentrate on controlling the ball - that's taken as a given. The team mates will have already started making the appropriate runs to receive an eventual onward pass. In Scotland, a left back (for example) will often wait to see whether his team mate manages to control the ball before starting an overlapping run.

Two very simple things that make all the difference.

MWHIBBIES
20-02-2014, 12:08 PM
rubbish.

argentina, brazil, ivory coast, ghana, holland etc etc

all countries that constantly churn out world class players but dont have a bean.

argentina being a great example of that needing money to constantly create world class players is a complete myth.Most of the best Ivorian and Gharnain players are produced in France. Most Brazilian and Argentine players get moves to Italy, Portugal or Spain at very young ages and teams in Holland like Ajax and PSV can afford top coaches and facilities as well as having philosophies in place for over 40 years when it comes to producing players.

You are also comparing a nation with 40/50 teams producing players to clubs producing players, there is a bit of a difference.

brian6-2
20-02-2014, 12:28 PM
Most of the best Ivorian and Gharnain players are produced in France. Most Brazilian and Argentine players get moves to Italy, Portugal or Spain at very young ages and teams in Holland like Ajax and PSV can afford top coaches and facilities as well as having philosophies in place for over 40 years when it comes to producing players.

You are also comparing a nation with 40/50 teams producing players to clubs producing players, there is a bit of a difference.

yaya toure - started his career in ivory coast
kolo toure - same as his brother. both brought through the ranks at youth level in ivory coast, a country with limited resources now imagine it 20 years ago when these guys came through.
probably worth noting that the club that brought those two through brought through, the likes of soloman kalou, gervinho, didier zokora, emmanuelle eboue,

michael essien - started his career in ghana. could go on all day...................

and these brazilian and argentinian players that move to the countries you mention do they just show up at these clubs with not a jot of footballing experience?? not to mention the fact now that no player from most countries in south america is allowed to move on untill the age of 18 (to europe) they are being coached, nurtured, schooled and brought on to be world class footballers in countries that dont have a penny, but run thier football the right way.

when you hear of messi or aguero, or neymar or toure talking about thier footballing upbringing do they completely miss out the part where they were noticed and coached to be the players they are today? nope.

money plays a part, yes. but not as big a one as people make out.

MWHIBBIES
20-02-2014, 12:41 PM
yaya toure - started his career in ivory coast
kolo toure - same as his brother. both brought through the ranks at youth level in ivory coast, a country with limited resources now imagine it 20 years ago when these guys came through.
probably worth noting that the club that brought those two through brought through, the likes of soloman kalou, gervinho, didier zokora, emmanuelle eboue,

michael essien - started his career in ghana. could go on all day...................

and these brazilian and argentinian players that move to the countries you mention do they just show up at these clubs with not a jot of footballing experience?? not to mention the fact now that no player from most countries in south america is allowed to move on untill the age of 18 (to europe) they are being coached, nurtured, schooled and brought on to be world class footballers in countries that dont have a penny, but run thier football the right way.

when you hear of messi or aguero, or neymar or toure talking about thier footballing upbringing do they completely miss out the part where they were noticed and coached to be the players they are today? nope.

money plays a part, yes. but not as big a one as people make out.

Essien was 17 when he moved to Europe, Gervinho 16, Kalou 17, Yaya Toure 17, these players wouldn't be anywhere near as good if they didn't move to Europe.

Go and have a read about how Messi became a footballer, he would be no where if it wasn't for Barcelona, they were the only ones who could afford the drugs he needed.

brian6-2
20-02-2014, 12:54 PM
Essien was 17 when he moved to Europe, Gervinho 16, Kalou 17, Yaya Toure 17, these players wouldn't be anywhere near as good if they didn't move to Europe.

Go and have a read about how Messi became a footballer, he would be no where if it wasn't for Barcelona, they were the only ones who could afford the drugs he needed.

your missing my point completely. what gave these guys the oppertunity to move to europe?

essien moved to bastia, hardly moneybags. good coaching? aye. would it have cost the earth? nope.

gervinho - beveren in belgium. same as above. toure also went to beveren. so take beveren for example, hardly a club renowned for being minted but its boiled down to good coaching thats not cost the earth.

im fully aware of messi's circumstances when he joined barcelona. picking one player from lierally thousands that have been coached by thier home clubs that noticed them and coached them and gone on to be world class players hardly backs up the theory that its all down to money. not to mention a wee bit disrespectful to the clubs, coaches and people involved in making these players what they are today.

its not al about the dosh MWHIBBIES. :agree: :aok:

superfurryhibby
20-02-2014, 01:20 PM
Two basic things for me that make great players, therefore teams.

1. Being able to use booth feet. How many times do way see a player receiving a pass then spend precious seconds bringing the ball onto his good foot - meanwhile the opposing player who was 10 yards away has closed him down, which leads us onto

2. Knowing what your going to do with the ball before a pass has reached you. Great players don't have to concentrate on controlling the ball - that's taken as a given. The team mates will have already started making the appropriate runs to receive an eventual onward pass. In Scotland, a left back (for example) will often wait to see whether his team mate manages to control the ball before starting an overlapping run.

Two very simple things that make all the difference.

I agree with many other points, but the issue of weak "other" foot really, really pisses me off. Even as a fairly dedicated amateur player, I was able to improve my left foot massively by practicing with it. When I look at Alex Harris's constant cutting in to his right foot when playing left wing it makes a case in point. Why is he playing wide left, when he can't dribble or deliver a ball with that foot and why doesn't he bloody work on it (in fact why does our manager persevere with playing him there?)

jdships
20-02-2014, 02:48 PM
You need to start with a blank sheet of paper and MONEY,MONEY,MONEY .
Simple as that :greengrin

Baader
20-02-2014, 03:30 PM
Money is the main factor!

heretoday
20-02-2014, 04:17 PM
This, this and this.

Hearts proved this by buying the Scottish cup but didn't have the funds to cover the cost, hence their position now. If Petrie shpwed some ambition and bought cech, messi, Suarez, fabregas, hazard etc we'd have a better chance in the league and Scottish cup...Come in Rod, make it happen!!!

But surely it's not all about money apart from, obviously, the Hearts case.

I think it's about coaching. Any squad of guys can perform out of their skins if they have a brilliant coach.

Mikey09
20-02-2014, 04:27 PM
Football is a simple game made extremely complicated by some coaches.... Pass and move. Do this with pace and purpose and it is very effective. Get the basics right and your on a winner.... Oh and players willing to work hard and listen. :thumbsup:

PeeJay
20-02-2014, 04:28 PM
The problem in Scottish football is not the technique side IMO. Although they are superior to me the key points are:
Confidence
Positional awareness/organisation
Creating space/options

I
Not sure about that, over here in Germany the lack of any basic skills, in particular the technical abilities of UK players is always mentioned when games involving UK teams are being analysed by pundits, managers, coaches - tactical skills and cleverness are also huge deficiencies of the UK game's home players. I've lost count of the number of times Beckenbauer and co. say that English teams are easy to see through ...

... seems to me talent, attitude, professionalism, dedication and a willingness to work hard and to keep working hard at your game - even at the top level - are what makes good players/teams - Barcelona and Bayern are as good as they are because of the shifts they put in - everything that is missing in the SPL in general and at Hibs in particular ... money helps as well, I suppose

Woodrow
20-02-2014, 04:29 PM
All it did was give them an excuse.

The sooner the British press realise the gulf in class between the EPL and the Bundesliga/La Liga the better.

Utter nonsense - Arsenal, Man U, Citeh and Chelski all beat German teams in the Group stage - and some Spanish teams

The sending off's in both games were a huge influence on the results.

I don't think anyone is denying the 'gulf in class' between Bayern and everyone else though

heretoday
20-02-2014, 04:41 PM
It's not so long ago since Chelsea won the big one. And then they won the Europa.

Personally I can't see Chelsea winning anything this season.

Much as I like them.

Stax
20-02-2014, 07:44 PM
Dnipro not doing to bad against moneybags spurs at the mo. Pitch is a mire but they're still playing some great stuff :thumbsup:

LaMotta
20-02-2014, 08:27 PM
Okay we've seen arguably the two top teams in the world making hay against Arsenal and Man City on their own patches.

What makes these guys so good? They're only human after all!

Why can't Hibs do that?

The thing that makes the greatest players stand out from all others is speed of thought. Physios and sports scientists refer to this as proprioception - basically the speed at which your brain can communicate with other parts of your body to produce an action such as a shot or a trick.

Messi's thought process is that bit quicker than the rest and his brains tell the body to move milliseconds faster than others. He can find space, see passes, situations etc before others.

Speed of thought can be improved by training every day, but greats like Messi, Ronaldo and Konte are just blessed by being born with supercharged levels of this ability.

In general Hibs, and all teams in the world at any level will beat teams with lesser players and lose to those with better players. Variables will play a part ie coaching, injuries, form - but in general its as simple as that imo.

Craig_in_Prague
20-02-2014, 08:53 PM
Sunday early morning kick offs with a mould master in the peeing rain or hailstones, with neanderthal coaches shouting and screaming, just hoping to win the game, on a slopey bumpy pitch.