Artificial surfaces

[Billy Whizz]

Just wondering what everyone's views are on artificial surfaces being introduced to the top league in Scotland in the near future?
I was at the Falkirk v Hibs under 20's match last night, and from my view, their new pitch looked great, and not too many players were slipping.
I watched the highlights on Inverness v Stranraer this morning, and the pitch was terrible, and looked bare.
We also play most of our football in Scotland in the autumn/winter months, so something to consider.

[Ell_Chrisso]

A lot of people's general complaint about the surface is it seems to give people injuries with it not being as forgiving as the natural grass. Knee and ankle problems seem to happen when it is used a lot, however teams are using them more and more for training these days so that would contradict that too.

I know I prefer playing on the astro personally as I hate the unpredictable crappy mud baths that you have to play in over the last few months. Nice flat pitch makes keeping the ball on the deck a lot easier aswell.

[Bishop Hibee]

If the cost of the grass/plastic hybrid pitches comes down then that is the future. The wet weather is what is harming pitches in Scotland. Winter is usually fairly dry.

I don't think artificial surfaces are good enough yet.

[Billy Whizz]

A lot of people's general complaint about the surface is it seems to give people injuries with it not being as forgiving as the natural grass. Knee and ankle problems seem to happen when it is used a lot, however teams are using them more and more for training these days so that would contradict that too.

I know I prefer playing on the astro personally as I hate the unpredictable crappy mud baths that you have to play in over the last few months. Nice flat pitch makes keeping the ball on the deck a lot easier aswell.

I play at the one at HW every week and its contributed to a few of my injuries. However their artificial park is quite old compared to the newer ones.
Just realised that there are now quite a number of G4 in the Championship/1st division in Scotland.
Is there an SPFL rule on this?

[--------]

A lot of people's general complaint about the surface is it seems to give people injuries with it not being as forgiving as the natural grass. Knee and ankle problems seem to happen when it is used a lot, however teams are using them more and more for training these days so that would contradict that too.

I know I prefer playing on the astro personally as I hate the unpredictable crappy mud baths that you have to play in over the last few months. Nice flat pitch makes keeping the ball on the deck a lot easier aswell.


As above. Modern synthetics are a lot better than the one used by Dunfermline in the last "trial period" in the SPL some years ago, and they're getting better all the time.

There are problems still, but I think that eventually this will come. The sort of composition pitches used by a number of top EPL teams are the answer at present, though they's expensive to maintain, I believe.

[Ozyhibby]

The pitch at Spartans is fantastic and you are a lot less likely to get injured on it than some spl mudbaths.
Either we move to summer football or we need to embrace these pitches.

[Brightside]

The quicker the better. Easter Road pitch a prime example of a surface that just can't take a lot of football. No thickness to the grass and more mud\sand than green. (You really see this if you go on the pitch). 4G pitches are amazing now and also encourage youth to play football.

[JustSimplyHibs]

Just wondering what everyone's views are on artificial surfaces being introduced to the top league in Scotland in the near future?
I was at the Falkirk v Hibs under 20's match last night, and from my view, their new pitch looked great, and not too many players were slipping.
I watched the highlights on Inverness v Stranraer this morning, and the pitch was terrible, and looked bare.
We also play most of our football in Scotland in the autumn/winter months, so something to consider.


I think it will happen eventually although, football has always been played on grass and i would like that to remain...

On another note, I've been a football coach for a number of years and during the winter months training and sometimes playing on 3g surfaces i'm starting to notice that a lot of kids are getting injured...

Normally its their knees where they are feeling the pain, some players mention sore shins - these kids also play and train at their schools on 3g surfaces and i cant help but feel that these surfaces are actually doing some form of damage... Normally with kids aged 11+ yes i've heard it all before i.e. Growing Pains etc. but these problems do not present themselves during the lighter months when training is moved back on to the grass... I dont know what the injuries are like at clubs within the SPFL who use cosmetic surfaces all the time - maybe someone in the know would know if these teams have higher proportion of players on the treatment table than clubs who play and train on grass.

I've asked doctors etc on this and one came up with a very good point... Not only did he criticise the footwear kids wear today but he did say that after a while cosmetic 3g/4g or any other surfaces loose there bounce/cushion - some are quicker than others depending on usage unlike a natural grass area. So to maintain these cosmetic surfaces would probably cost clubs a fortune to maintain so whether these surfaces are implemented will boil down to cost effectiveness.

[number9dream]

What about the new hybrid weave that they're putting in at Murrayfield?
Probably very expensive but the Easter Road pitch has been in a poor state for years now and others are a lot worse...

[easty]

I'm all for it. The state of some of the grass pitches is horrendous in the SPL.

I played on the 3G at Poltonhall against Bonnyrigg 21s on Monday night, the pitch was fine, and I've no doubt at all that if the SPL did start using artificial they would be much better than that 3G effort.

[Brightside]

Cheaper to maintain a top of the range 4g than a grass pitch. (Unless you are talking about council pitches which arent maintained at all). Ive seen much more injuries on grass pitches due to unsafe surfances, holes etc. The latest technology has a mix of both - expect to see that becoming the standard over the next 10 years. I want rid of grass pitches. Technology moves on which is why we dont still play with steel toe caps.

What you do see is a huge increase in the quality of football on 4g. its an even surface, the ball runs cleanly and the old days of the ball bouncing 12ft in the air are long gone. You also don't have games abandoned and can train\play all year round.

[Brightside]

http://www.dessosports.com/hybrid-grass

[StevieT]

I have refereed on 20+ occasions at Station Park, Forfar and it is a fantastic surface. I would say it is the best artificial surface I have refereed on, better than Spartans. I have never felt any ill effects in my legs following a game, unlike other artificial surfaces. On some artificial surfaces people complain about an unnatural bounce of the ball. I would say that on this pitch the bounce is more or less always the same regardless of the weather unlike grass pitches where you get a softer bounce in the wet and harder bounce when dry.

The only downside that I can think of is when it is really windy. Taking dead ball kicks; goal kicks, corner kicks, free kicks, can be difficult as you can't dig your heal in to make that wee dent for the ball to sit in before kicking it.

[Makaveli]

Part of me thinks that first class football (no jokes please) should be played outside on grass, no exceptions. But then most of the big new stadiums have roofs etc, and actual grass is a rarity on many Scottish pitches at this time of year. And as everyone says, modern synthetics are very good...

So I'm alright with it. As long as there is a rule that the pitch is a decent shade of green. :agree:

And while we're at it, no adverts on the playing surface. Betting ads on the grass beside the goals are bad enough but the way things are going it won't be long until the pitch looks like a flippin boxing ring.

[sparky]

http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/06/injury-risk-artificial-turf-vs-natural.html?m=1

Is it possible that a lot these reported injuries are down to the perception that synthetic pitches are worse? Confirmation bias. Anecdotal evidence is not as reliable of course.

Very difficult to do a double blind test on grass vs synthetic. Blind folded footballers anyone! That might be fun to watch.

[JustSimplyHibs]

http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/06/injury-risk-artificial-turf-vs-natural.html?m=1

Is it possible that a lot these reported injuries are down to the perception that synthetic pitches are worse? Confirmation bias. Anecdotal evidence is not as reliable of course.

Very difficult to do a double blind test on grass vs synthetic. Blind folded footballers anyone! That might be fun to watch.


No in-depth British medical studies as yet for sports injuries relating to cosmetic surfaces... Although in America where artificial surfaces have been the norm for decades, studied and noted that there is higher levels of knee injuries on cosmetic surface than natural grass however, there is less ankle injuries on cosmetic than natural... Catch 22 eh. I will point out that these studies were financed by suppliers of cosmetic surfaces and was based mainly on American Football and the duration was up to three years long.

Also with artificial surfaces its been noted in some of these studies there is an increase the pitch temperature more than natural grass which again they note can come with problems for example, dehydration - which was noted more in Soccer players due to their time on pitch and competition intensity compared to American Football (shouldnae be a problem in Scotland mind you).

[Hibby Bairn]

Circa £500k for a new artificial pitch. Potential income and cost savings per year circa £120k.

Makes financial sense. And you see better football played on it.

[Waxy]

They use them in scandanavian countries. I heard somewhere that in Finland, they play their league cup matches indoors.

[big-mo]

The new Hybrid pitch for Murrayfield will cost c£250,000, so around about £200,00 for a football pitch. A latest version of a 3G pitch would be somewhere around about that figure. Both need maintenance and the amount required depends on the amount of usage. The problem with a lot of grass pitches in modern stadia is the amount of usage, how well it is maintained, the original quality and how often the under-soil heating is switched on. ER pitch is starting to look worse for ware but it is only used for first team home games, Livi's pitch looks a lot better but has about three times the number of games played on it. Ibrox and Celtic Park use mobile light units which stimulate grass growth when there would be little growth under normal conditions.
Some poor quality or poorly maintained artificial pitches are responsible for a lot of people not being too keen on them and blaming them for injuries. However a lot of clubs practice on them all week and only play on grass on match days.

BTW there is no such thing as a 4G or 5G pitch, the very latest is 3G. (Astroturf is just a trade made).

[Jones28]

What about the new hybrid weave that they're putting in at Murrayfield?
Probably very expensive but the Easter Road pitch has been in a poor state for years now and others are a lot worse...

Veeeery expensive I think.

[easty]

The new Hybrid pitch for Murrayfield will cost c£250,000, so around about £200,00 for a football pitch. A latest version of a 3G pitch would be somewhere around about that figure. Both need maintenance and the amount required depends on the amount of usage. The problem with a lot of grass pitches in modern stadia is the amount of usage, how well it is maintained, the original quality and how often the under-soil heating is switched on. ER pitch is starting to look worse for ware but it is only used for first team home games, Livi's pitch looks a lot better but has about three times the number of games played on it. Ibrox and Celtic Park use mobile light units which stimulate grass growth when there would be little growth under normal conditions.
Some poor quality or poorly maintained artificial pitches are responsible for a lot of people not being too keen on them and blaming them for injuries. However a lot of clubs practice on them all week and only play on grass on match days.

BTW there is no such thing as a 4G or 5G pitch, the very latest is 3G. (Astroturf is just a trade made).

http://artificialturfpitchreplacement.co.uk/4g-astroturf-surfaces/

[lord bunberry]

I've been saying it for years, every time I watch a game played on an artificial pitch I think it's the way forward. Playing on some of the grass pitches in the spfl can't be condusive to good football, is it any wonder young players like Harris struggle to be consistent at this time of year when they are playing in bobbley pitches.

[Ozyhibby]

Circa £500k for a new artificial pitch. Potential income and cost savings per year circa £120k.

Makes financial sense. And you see better football played on it.

£120k a year. That's a first team players wage at Hibs.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

I remember Dunfermline had it in the Mowbray days, do they still have it?

[ekhibee]

Seemingly a lot of the English ones are good, didn't QPR have one or do they still have it?

[lord bunberry]

I remember Dunfermline had it in the Mowbray days, do they still have it?

No the rules were changed and they had to get rid of it.

[sparky]

No in-depth British medical studies as yet for sports injuries relating to cosmetic surfaces... Although in America where artificial surfaces have been the norm for decades, studied and noted that there is higher levels of knee injuries on cosmetic surface than natural grass however, there is less ankle injuries on cosmetic than natural... Catch 22 eh. I will point out that these studies were financed by suppliers of cosmetic surfaces and was based mainly on American Football and the duration was up to three years long.

Also with artificial surfaces its been noted in some of these studies there is an increase the pitch temperature more than natural grass which again they note can come with problems for example, dehydration - which was noted more in Soccer players due to their time on pitch and competition intensity compared to American Football (shouldnae be a problem in Scotland mind you).

A good area for study then. I do hear a lot of negative opinions and weasel words like "plastic pitches" being thrown around. Football is all about opinions and a lot of managers and players have it in there heads that artificial equals more chance of injury. Until a large scale study with suitable controls put in place we'll never knew for sure. An easy thing to test would be are the surfaces actually harder than grass. That might explain the knee injuries as a result of impact damage. I know my knees hurt more after playing footy in a gym compared to ongrass. Of course it might be all in my head.

[Haymaker]

I coach and play on a variety of different surfaces, grass is best on my knees & ankles (which are ****ed!). However depending on what type of artificial pitch it is depends on how bad they get. I did a course on an old school green plastic and sand one in the summer and within minutes I was in pain however I have played on the top end rubber surface in the US (i was told it was the 4g) and I didnt feel a thing.

Personally I like to mix sessions on and off artificial where possible. Not much luck this year though!

For clubs the way forward is the mix weave however these are very expensive to install and maintain!

[Ozyhibby]

Do Falkirk play on artificial grass? Have they had more injuries than normal?

[CyberSauzee]

Talking with managers in the Ryman Premier League (where Maidstone have a 3G pitch, and Harlow in the division below), they are of the opinion that they are a tad on the slow side. They also make bad players look half decent because of this due to the consistent roll and bounce.

Also agree with the points above about injuries. Back injuries are common place. I was talking to a young centre back playing for a Ryman club, he's suffering from a bad back and he's only 20. His physio does think his years spent in the Chelsea youth setup on plastic with a concrete base have contributed to the problem.

If you can get foundations that are far more forgiving, plus a faster surface then I've no problem with them. Far prefer grass personally though.

[Jones28]

Height of the stands contributes to wear on a pitch too, with the west stand blocking out a huge amount of sunlight when the sun is lower in the sky which of course means the grass doesn't grow. PETRIE!

On a serious note a hybrid pitch would be ideal.

[big-mo]

http://artificialturfpitchreplacement.co.uk/4g-astroturf-surfaces/

I have doubled checked and I can assure you that the stuff they are selling is not 4th generation carpet and is not any more advanced than any other carpet. They claim to have accreditation of the FA, FIFA 1*, FIFA 2*, FIH, IRB and RFU, you just can't get a surface to meet all these criteria. Astroturf don't even mention it on their site.

[The Pointer]

I played rugby once on the 4G at Scotstoun and it was superb. A dull, dry day, it was great to run on and there was plenty of grip. Best of all was the weird feeling coming off at the end and not being covered in mud.

The SRU are proposing to replace the cabbage patch that is Murrayfield with a combination of grass and artificial, similar to that in the Aviva in Dublin and that would appear to be the future.

[SneakersO'Toole]

I have doubled checked and I can assure you that the stuff they are selling is not 4th generation carpet and is not any more advanced than any other carpet. They claim to have accreditation of the FA, FIFA 1*, FIFA 2*, FIH, IRB and RFU, you just can't get a surface to meet all these criteria. Astroturf don't even mention it on their site.

4G is just a marketing ploy that the commercial enterprises use to try fool people into believing their product is the latest and greatest.

If the infill used is part sand and rubber granule then it doesn't matter on the pile height, yarn type, accreditation's or anything else - its 3G.