OK then, what would you actually do...?

[Twa Cairpets]

Glancing through some of the threads, it's clear that collective angst is still very much the dominant feature. Depressing though it is to look through, the threads are dominated by people who come out with throwaway comments of despair/anger/reaction without actually coming up with anything that may be workable/sensible/possible.

So, for all you guys who are demanding some form of immediate action, what would you actually do? What actual things would you do that would change the current position to your satisfaction?

Statements like "sack Petrie" or "install a winning mentality" aren't valid unless you can answer "with who" and "how" respectively. No retrospective "oh but we should have done this with Mogga or burst the bank for sparky" - that's all in the past and can't be changed.

So go on then. What magic wand would you wave? What is there to be done that will make the Hibbie world all shiny again for you?

For me, to answer my own question, here's a couple of things that could be looked at, although what I mostly think needs to be changed is the current short-termism regarding expectation. To clarify - I know we've been "transitioning" for 6 or 7 years, but with the exception of a few (to my mind wrong) posters elsewhere, the appointment of TB was the most universally welcomed in years, and if we ant to succeed, we simply must give him a chance without bringing the typical pressure we heap on managers after a few setbacks, as that leads to short term decisions being made. TB has a type of football he wants to play. The players we have are not the right type of players for this model, so its creaking. One thing I recall Chick Young saying on the radio before TB came to Hibs was that Butcher scouts and signs specific players for his system. We clearly dont have all the players in place, and January wasn't the time to do it successfully for the long term, so it didn't happen. I think we need to give him all of next season at least before we reach a conclusion.

Anyway, a couple of specifics I think would help

1) Long term plan with TB and MM emphatically stated, and clearly, unequivocally communicated to the fans. The Scottish FA get a lot of stock, but anyone interested in their vision for the state of Scottish football can get it in their "Scotland United 2020" document, which makes them directly accountable for their strategy and success. We can then fill the forum with arguments about whether the strategy is correct, but at least we'll be arguing on the basis of fact rather than assumption.
2) Some type of contrition made for where we've been at the start of next season. Offer automatic Cup Top ups on the value of the ST, for example, or a really nominal charge of a fiver, say.

[Waxy]

I reckon we're all just a bit seething because we've blown a great chance to win the holy grail.
We have to give the management team some time. So, what i want is, The Scottish cup at Easter road within three years.

[Scouse Hibee]

Glancing through some of the threads, it's clear that collective angst is still very much the dominant feature. Depressing though it is to look through, the threads are dominated by people who come out with throwaway comments of despair/anger/reaction without actually coming up with anything that may be workable/sensible/possible.

So, for all you guys who are demanding some form of immediate action, what would you actually do? What actual things would you do that would change the current position to your satisfaction?

Statements like "sack Petrie" or "install a winning mentality" aren't valid unless you can answer "with who" and "how" respectively. No retrospective "oh but we should have done this with Mogga or burst the bank for sparky" - that's all in the past and can't be changed.

So go on then. What magic wand would you wave? What is there to be done that will make the Hibbie world all shiny again for you?

For me, to answer my own question, here's a couple of things that could be looked at, although what I mostly think needs to be changed is the current short-termism regarding expectation. To clarify - I know we've been "transitioning" for 6 or 7 years, but with the exception of a few (to my mind wrong) posters elsewhere, the appointment of TB was the most universally welcomed in years, and if we ant to succeed, we simply must give him a chance without bringing the typical pressure we heap on managers after a few setbacks, as that leads to short term decisions being made. TB has a type of football he wants to play. The players we have are not the right type of players for this model, so its creaking. One thing I recall Chick Young saying on the radio before TB came to Hibs was that Butcher scouts and signs specific players for his system. We clearly dont have all the players in place, and January wasn't the time to do it successfully for the long term, so it didn't happen. I think we need to give him all of next season at least before we reach a conclusion.

Anyway, a couple of specifics I think would help

1) Long term plan with TB and MM emphatically stated, and clearly, unequivocally communicated to the fans. The Scottish FA get a lot of stock, but anyone interested in their vision for the state of Scottish football can get it in their "Scotland United 2020" document, which makes them directly accountable for their strategy and success. We can then fill the forum with arguments about whether the strategy is correct, but at least we'll be arguing on the basis of fact rather than assumption.
2) Some type of contrition made for where we've been at the start of next season. Offer automatic Cup Top ups on the value of the ST, for example, or a really nominal charge of a fiver, say.

The club employ "experts" in each position of management, if we the fans need to come up with the answers rather than them we're all ******!

[Twa Cairpets]

The club employ "experts" in each position of management, if we the fans need to come up with the answers rather than them we're all ******!

So what do you suggest then we do? Just get really really angry?

I'm not suggesting you go and takeover the running of the club, by the way, it's just seems that people - not necessarily yourself - like to rage against something without actually having the first clue as to what to do? For example: Things like "get Petrie out and get a football man in". What does this even mean? A guy who is at the centre of Scottish football isn't a football man? Do they mean an ex player? Didnt work well for Nevin. What qualifies an ex pro player to run a £7 million turnover football club? Would you ask the best oil-explorer to run BP?

People shout "by a marquee player" I'd love that we could but then we'd have to fill the rest of the team with on average poorer players who command less pay. Doesnt work. Look at the book "The Numbers Game - everything you thought you knew about football is wrong" for that to be comprehensively demonstrated.

If the shouting and noise is just frustration then fine, it's just pretty pointless unless there's anything useful that could come out of it.

[QMU-1875]

I want a statement of intent from Petrie. Some form of statement saying by 2020 Hibernian will of established itself as the third force in Scotland and will of added a trophy to the cabinet. Of course including how we are going to do this using the resources we have.

[DaveF]

I just want to see improvement. Apart from continuing to invest each year (as I do) then I'm not sure that I can have much else of an effect on things.

I've gone past the apathetic stage to now being really frustrated at our lack of progression, to the point where I lost it mometarily on saturday when Stevenson 'controlled' a pass 10 feet out of play. It's basics like that (even though it was probably a crap pass he got or the pitch was to blame) that drive me and I suppose many other fans, mad.

Yet again, it looks like the summer is going to be the key, yet it need not be. Stanton has been a bright light and could use the next dozen or so game to shine. Harris could rediscover a bit of form. Watmore looked promising. Replace Collins with Haynes and see what he does. Boot the arse of the Craig and the defence (as a collective) and we could still go on a winning run.

Seeing some fight and passion from the team would help. The fans will respond to it, so start with that and take it from there.

[Scouse Hibee]

So what do you suggest then we do? Just get really really angry?

I'm not suggesting you go and takeover the running of the club, by the way, it's just seems that people - not necessarily yourself - like to rage against something without actually having the first clue as to what to do? For example: Things like "get Petrie out and get a football man in". What does this even mean? A guy who is at the centre of Scottish football isn't a football man? Do they mean an ex player? Didnt work well for Nevin. What qualifies an ex pro player to run a £7 million turnover football club? Would you ask the best oil-explorer to run BP?

People shout "by a marquee player" I'd love that we could but then we'd have to fill the rest of the team with on average poorer players who command less pay. Doesnt work. Look at the book "The Numbers Game - everything you thought you knew about football is wrong" for that to be comprehensively demonstrated.

If the shouting and noise is just frustration then fine, it's just pretty pointless unless there's anything useful that could come out of it.

Hold my hands up and say I don't know what to do, I have never shouted for Petrie out nor do I think we should break the bank for a signing that would appease the fans for five minutes. I really don't know what is fundamentally wrong, maybe we've got it right this time and TB will demonstrate that with a team of his own making. If he doesn't and we haven't then why? Does the club need to be taken over from top to bottom to make it work? I really don't know. If the answer was that easy to come up with I would have hoped the senior "experts" at the club would have come up with it by now.
Fans will always show their frustartion there is nothing else they can actively do is there?

[TheFamous1875]

Thomson as captain in the middle of the park with Robertson, Craig in an attacking midfield 3 with Harris and Stanton (eventually if all goes to plan re blooding them slowly), ready to give the benefit of the doubt, but if things get worse at the back, drop Nelson, and put whoever's more adept at RB out of Forster and Boeteng in either position.

Give Harris, Stanton and Forster leeway and slowly let them acclimatise to the level of football expected. Sub appearances, Under 20s, all that's needed to get them up to scratch. We should be nourishing them properly if they're to be our future (certainly showed the potential to be great players).

Keep Stevenson around the squad as always, as we saw at Christmas time, he'll take his chance if utilised properly (LM/LCM). Have a balanced rotation of the squad regarding opposition if needed - For example, Harris and Watmore are wingers who'd suit 4-3-3.

These changes are the minimum I would do, but as I'm not a football manager, I can't say if it's right, or not, but in my opinion, it's worth a shot. Craig clearly shouldn't be a holding CM. Thomson, if he applies himself could be very, very useful in that role. Likewise with Craig up attacking, which is why he was brought here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD.

[Twa Cairpets]

I just want to see improvement. Apart from continuing to invest each year (as I do) then I'm not sure that I can have much else of an effect on things.

I've gone past the apathetic stage to now being really frustrated at our lack of progression, to the point where I lost it mometarily on saturday when Stevenson 'controlled' a pass 10 feet out of play. It's basics like that (even though it was probably a crap pass he got or the pitch was to blame) that drive me and I suppose many other fans, mad.

Yet again, it looks like the summer is going to be the key, yet it need not be. Stanton has been a bright light and could use the next dozen or so game to shine. Harris could rediscover a bit of form. Watmore looked promising. Replace Collins with Haynes and see what he does. Boot the arse of the Craig and the defence (as a collective) and we could still go on a winning run.

Seeing some fight and passion from the team would help. The fans will respond to it, so start with that and take it from there.

We all want to see improvement. I think that's a given? But given the outpouring of vitriol against all and sundry involved at the club over the past couple of days, it appears that people are good at screaming and crap at coming up with anything other than "oohhh we're so sh***" and ripping half our team a new one with abuse.

Your comment on Stevenson is a case in point. He is, by Scottish standards and our football economy, as solid pro. If he was a bit better, he'd probably be in the Championship or OF by now. He's the type of player we can afford, and sadly we can't afford Messi's. We are absolutely hostages to the economics of the game, and the margins between a player who can command, say £2k a week and £2.5K a week are so small our extra spending power will only be significant in term sof results over a long period, not a game or a season. This is why we can get beat by teams like Raith in a game but over the piece we will be better than them. The average performance by teams since the SPL came in is almost precisely aligned with turnover.

As it happens I think we were't lacking in fight, we were lacking in inspiration.

[StevieC]

I would assess the players in the team during the first few months in charge, and work out how they could fit in to my plans and prefered style of play. I would then look to replace players that didn't fit my criteria with ones that did. This wouldn't happen overnight so I'd prioritise certain positions to try and improve the team in the areas most needed. I would try to ignore, and protect my players from, the uber fandans that didn't understand the size of the job involved or the timescales required to reach my goals.

[DaveF]

We all want to see improvement. I think that's a given? But given the outpouring of vitriol against all and sundry involved at the club over the past couple of days, it appears that people are good at screaming and crap at coming up with anything other than "oohhh we're so sh***" and ripping half our team a new one with abuse.

Your comment on Stevenson is a case in point. He is, by Scottish standards and our football economy, as solid pro. If he was a bit better, he'd probably be in the Championship or OF by now. He's the type of player we can afford, and sadly we can't afford Messi's. We are absolutely hostages to the economics of the game, and the margins between a player who can command, say £2k a week and £2.5K a week are so small our extra spending power will only be significant in term sof results over a long period, not a game or a season. This is why we can get beat by teams like Raith in a game but over the piece we will be better than them. The average performance by teams since the SPL came in is almost precisely aligned with turnover.

As it happens I think we were't lacking in fight, we were lacking in inspiration.

I'm really not sure what your point is in this whole thread - Other than to have another go at frustrated fans who are clearly less worthy than your good self.

It's not up to us to change things. That's down to the management team and the players.

Fitba isn't rocket science. Get it right on the park and the fans will buy into it. Get it wrong (and consisently so) and, well, you know what happens.

[RIP Bestie]

Glancing through some of the threads, it's clear that collective angst is still very much the dominant feature. Depressing though it is to look through, the threads are dominated by people who come out with throwaway comments of despair/anger/reaction without actually coming up with anything that may be workable/sensible/possible.

So, for all you guys who are demanding some form of immediate action, what would you actually do? What actual things would you do that would change the current position to your satisfaction?

Statements like "sack Petrie" or "install a winning mentality" aren't valid unless you can answer "with who" and "how" respectively. No retrospective "oh but we should have done this with Mogga or burst the bank for sparky" - that's all in the past and can't be changed.

So go on then. What magic wand would you wave? What is there to be done that will make the Hibbie world all shiny again for you?

For me, to answer my own question, here's a couple of things that could be looked at, although what I mostly think needs to be changed is the current short-termism regarding expectation. To clarify - I know we've been "transitioning" for 6 or 7 years, but with the exception of a few (to my mind wrong) posters elsewhere, the appointment of TB was the most universally welcomed in years, and if we ant to succeed, we simply must give him a chance without bringing the typical pressure we heap on managers after a few setbacks, as that leads to short term decisions being made. TB has a type of football he wants to play. The players we have are not the right type of players for this model, so its creaking. One thing I recall Chick Young saying on the radio before TB came to Hibs was that Butcher scouts and signs specific players for his system. We clearly dont have all the players in place, and January wasn't the time to do it successfully for the long term, so it didn't happen. I think we need to give him all of next season at least before we reach a conclusion.

Anyway, a couple of specifics I think would help

1) Long term plan with TB and MM emphatically stated, and clearly, unequivocally communicated to the fans. The Scottish FA get a lot of stock, but anyone interested in their vision for the state of Scottish football can get it in their "Scotland United 2020" document, which makes them directly accountable for their strategy and success. We can then fill the forum with arguments about whether the strategy is correct, but at least we'll be arguing on the basis of fact rather than assumption.
2) Some type of contrition made for where we've been at the start of next season. Offer automatic Cup Top ups on the value of the ST, for example, or a really nominal charge of a fiver, say.
I think that whether we think Butcher is the correct choice or not, we have to get behind him and trust his judgement. I think it is clear to see that Watmore is a vast improvement on the standard of player we have here at present based on his showing on Saturday. This surely gives us hope about the type of player Butcher is looking to bring to the club. My problem though is that we are only bringing better players to the club on loan deals, which isn't going to benefit us financially in the long term in respect of sell on value. I accept that there is a benefit with improved results and helping to bring young players on. I agree wholeheartedly that the club and Management team should reveal their vision and strategy for the way forward. This may help us understand why we lost out to Aberdeen for a player that the manager clearly wanted to sign or to understand why we can only offer loan deals. The fans are the lifeblood of any club and it really is unacceptable that in this day and age we are still asking the same old question "what the hell is going on" without getting any answers or sense of reasoning. I think that If Butcher isn't able to bring the players that he wants to in the summer it would be reasonable for the club to be open and honest and tell us why. That way we could maybe start to understand, feel involved and back the team the way I'm sure we all want to.
just as a footnote Twa Cairpets, in my opinion this is a much better thread than your previous one and I appreciate your reasoned thoughts on the way forward.

[Hibrandenburg]

The club to make it clear that the manager is the boss. If a player doesn't perform on the park then it's his arse that's out the door and not the manager.

This is not a short term strategy but if we're going to weed out the driftwood it's a necessary one.

[Twa Cairpets]

I'm really not sure what your point is in this whole thread - Other than to have another go at frustrated fans who are clearly less worthy than your good self.

It's not up to us to change things. That's down to the management team and the players.

Fitba isn't rocket science. Get it right on the park and the fans will buy into it. Get it wrong (and consisently so) and, well, you know what happens.

Hey, thanks for the personal dig! Appreciated!

The point of the thread is to hopefully get people thinking, debating and looking forward rather than just reacting. I don't have the answers other than what I put in the OP - clarity and patience, essentially.

If it turns out over a reasonable period not to be working with Butcher, then I do think there needs to be a direction change with Petrie needing to leave. I don't think we're there yet.

Football may not be rocket science, but it is governed by statistics, and the stats say don't be short-termist or things seldom improve unless you have buckets and buckets of cash. If getting it right on the park was easy it'd be a dull game.

[number 27]

Communication remains a problem. We have a 5 year plan apparently but no-one is allowed to know what it is, why not let us in on the secret?

If the Collins signing was significantly less than the reported 200,000 why not just tell us instead of dropping smug little hints.

What do we as a club really want to achieve? There is a perception that we aspire to mediocrity and regard continuing to exist as a success. Just for once it would be encouraging to see the club set down some targets to indicate that they genuinely crave football success and are setting out a strategy to achieve it.

[Twa Cairpets]

I think that whether we think Butcher is the correct choice or not, we have to get behind him and trust his judgement. I think it is clear to see that Watmore is a vast improvement on the standard of player we have here at present based on his showing on Saturday. This surely gives us hope about the type of player Butcher is looking to bring to the club. My problem though is that we are only bringing better players to the club on loan deals, which isn't going to benefit us financially in the long term in respect of sell on value. I accept that there is a benefit with improved results and helping to bring young players on. I agree wholeheartedly that the club and Management team should reveal their vision and strategy for the way forward. This may help us understand why we lost out to Aberdeen for a player that the manager clearly wanted to sign or to understand why we can only offer loan deals. The fans are the lifeblood of any club and it really is unacceptable that in this day and age we are still asking the same old question "what the hell is going on" without getting any answers or sense of reasoning. I think that If Butcher isn't able to bring the players that he wants to in the summer it would be reasonable for the club to be open and honest and tell us why. That way we could maybe start to understand, feel involved and back the team the way I'm sure we all want to.
just as a footnote Twa Cairpets, in my opinion this is a much better thread than your previous one and I appreciate your reasoned thoughts on the way forward.

Cheers.

I would agree with a lot of what you say here in terms of clarity, but would caution against the received wisdom that, for example Butcher wanted Rooney and was denied getting him. I simply don't think it was the case that we "lost out" as various posters ITK have, I think, clarified. I also incidentally don't think that the nitty gritty of day-to-day negotiations should be publicised - thats non of our business, frankly - but the long-term overall strategy and expectation levels should be spelled out.

I did say elsewhere that I cannot for a single second believe that Butcher had anything other than an absolutely clear view of what his player budget was to be before he joined. If he is denied access to those funds, then he/we would have reason to complain. I can't believe this is the case, or he would have walked. It's not as if he'd have a problem getting a job. The summer is the first acid test for how TB will be as a manager and how he uses the funds at his disposal.

[The Sea-gull]

I reckon we're all just a bit seething because we've blown a great chance to win the holy grail.
We have to give the management team some time. So, what i want is, The Scottish cup at Easter road within three years.

We have blown what was on the face of it a good chance but if Celtic being out (in the past Rangers too) is the indicator being used to represent a great chance of winning the cup then we must have blown countless over the years.

Looking at who is left, I would have placed Aberdeen, Rangers, Dundee, United, Inverness and St Johnstone ahead of Hibs in being most likely to win the cup. We just don't have as good as squad as any of these teams and whilst we are capable of beating any of these teams (Ok we haven't played Rangers) in 8 games against them this season we have won 1, drawn 3 and lost 4. The win is the only time we have beaten a team above us in the league this season.

Our record v the better teams in recent seasons is woeful. Due to the vast number of teams left who are better than us we would have probably fallen short at some point in this season's cup but yes we would rather be there to find out than be out on our erses dumped out by a Div 1 team.

The OP is asking for suggestions on what we can do to make things better instead of moaning about everything. I have made suggestions on other posts but I will make them again.

1. Sign good players with character as well as quality, 5 or 6 would do it (GK if Williams goes, right back, centre half, midfield "boss", creative pacy player and a goalscorer.

2. Sign them early to show fans we have ambitions of improving. This will cost a bit but for me the time has now well and truly arrived where we have to speculate to accumulate. Surely spending a wee bit extra is to get top 6 which would increase crowds, getting cup runs is better than paying dross for dross and playing bottom 6 again in front of dwindling crowds and toothless cup exits.

[Unseen work]

I would play this team when available and be very confident of winning

Williams

Forster Nelson Hanlon mcgivern

Tudor jones Thomson

Watmore Craig Stanton

Collins

Murdoch
Stevenson
Harris
Boateng
Haynes / Collins
Handling
Robertson

Tudor jones and Thomson haven't started a lot but I always feel we have a lot more control of the midfield when they play and far better shape and defensively solid.

Mcgivern wasn't playing great but is it a coincidence we have been leaking goals since he's been out?

Craig foward into attacking where he can get chances to score. Was a toss up with him Robertson and Harris but to me is more of a threat than Robertson and Harris hasn't been his best lately

Felt harsh leaving Stevenson out as he has been good lately but the team as a whole have been poor and I feel when we get our settled team he might struggle to nail down his own position

Not the biggest fan of Nelson but have never seen boateng play

[DaveF]

Hey, thanks for the personal dig! Appreciated!

No problem. You have had a few broad sweeps of the generalisation brush yourself lately, so I didn't think you'd mind.


Football may not be rocket science, but it is governed by statistics, and the stats say don't be short-termist or things seldom improve unless you have buckets and buckets of cash. If getting it right on the park was easy it'd be a dull game.

Stats will also say that is you keep getting it wrong on the park (the one thing we have been good at!), then the support will fall off and a good number of those that remain will be angry, frustrated and likely help contribute to the overall feeling of despair.

We need to break the cycle. The fans have supported the team but can only take so much. Hopefully, TB can shift the malaise and get us going again.

[RIP Bestie]

Cheers.

I would agree with a lot of what you say here in terms of clarity, but would caution against the received wisdom that, for example Butcher wanted Rooney and was denied getting him. I simply don't think it was the case that we "lost out" as various posters ITK have, I think, clarified. I also incidentally don't think that the nitty gritty of day-to-day negotiations should be publicised - thats non of our business, frankly - but the long-term overall strategy and expectation levels should be spelled out.

I did say elsewhere that I cannot for a single second believe that Butcher had anything other than an absolutely clear view of what his player budget was to be before he joined. If he is denied access to those funds, then he/we would have reason to complain. I can't believe this is the case, or he would have walked. It's not as if he'd have a problem getting a job. The summer is the first acid test for how TB will be as a manager and how he uses the funds at his disposal.
I'm not suggesting that we should be publishing the inner details of transfer negotiations or the day to day business decisions, however I think that there is scope to engage the supporters more by understanding our frustrations and responding to them. I know that we can't please all of the people all of the time and all that but it doesn't help when all we can deal with is conjecture. A clear published vision is necessary so that everyone can be measured against it is essential in my opinion. That may bring a bit of realism to our expectation and debates and allow us to make an informed decision of whether it's a product we want to invest in. I'm sure though that the vast majority will still invest regardless of the blueprint in the vain hope that utopia can be reached, and rightly so.

[JimBHibees]

Glancing through some of the threads, it's clear that collective angst is still very much the dominant feature. Depressing though it is to look through, the threads are dominated by people who come out with throwaway comments of despair/anger/reaction without actually coming up with anything that may be workable/sensible/possible.

So, for all you guys who are demanding some form of immediate action, what would you actually do? What actual things would you do that would change the current position to your satisfaction?

Statements like "sack Petrie" or "install a winning mentality" aren't valid unless you can answer "with who" and "how" respectively. No retrospective "oh but we should have done this with Mogga or burst the bank for sparky" - that's all in the past and can't be changed.

So go on then. What magic wand would you wave? What is there to be done that will make the Hibbie world all shiny again for you?

For me, to answer my own question, here's a couple of things that could be looked at, although what I mostly think needs to be changed is the current short-termism regarding expectation. To clarify - I know we've been "transitioning" for 6 or 7 years, but with the exception of a few (to my mind wrong) posters elsewhere, the appointment of TB was the most universally welcomed in years, and if we ant to succeed, we simply must give him a chance without bringing the typical pressure we heap on managers after a few setbacks, as that leads to short term decisions being made. TB has a type of football he wants to play. The players we have are not the right type of players for this model, so its creaking. One thing I recall Chick Young saying on the radio before TB came to Hibs was that Butcher scouts and signs specific players for his system. We clearly dont have all the players in place, and January wasn't the time to do it successfully for the long term, so it didn't happen. I think we need to give him all of next season at least before we reach a conclusion.

Anyway, a couple of specifics I think would help

1) Long term plan with TB and MM emphatically stated, and clearly, unequivocally communicated to the fans. The Scottish FA get a lot of stock, but anyone interested in their vision for the state of Scottish football can get it in their "Scotland United 2020" document, which makes them directly accountable for their strategy and success. We can then fill the forum with arguments about whether the strategy is correct, but at least we'll be arguing on the basis of fact rather than assumption.
2) Some type of contrition made for where we've been at the start of next season. Offer automatic Cup Top ups on the value of the ST, for example, or a really nominal charge of a fiver, say.

Agree completely with the two points you outline at the end of your post. Hibs again :rolleyes: need to be creating some decent PR and in Terry Butcher we now have a real leader and communicator in getting his message across. He is very media savvy and comes over very well. He will I am sure be able to outline what his plans are just as long as he doesnt say 'be Rangers manager in 2 years'. :greengrin

Alot of the frustration and knee jerk responses are to me understandable given the game on Saturday, it was hugely disappointing not just on terms of result but also performance we looked poor defensively and lost 3 goals to a struggling team. Raith played well and were better than us in the middle of the park especially second half. The main disappointment to me was the lack of drive and passion when we had the 30 mins to get an equaliser, everything seemed slow and lacking in energy and control.

The bottom line is we do need to be patient that is for sure however we should also be able to finish the season strongly given our squad.

[dangermouse]

The OP is correct in that something needs to be done. I don't have the answers but what worries me is on Saturday when leaving the game my son asked me if there was any point in renewing our season tickets.

I'm hoping this is just a knee jerk reaction but if he, a die hard Hibby who hates missing a game, is thinking like that how many others are doing the same which could result in TB having a smaller budget than anticipated meaning the recovery takes longer and more fans get disgruntled. A catch 22 situation.

Hopefully, after thumping Ross County next weekend :greengrin (hope I haven't tempted fate) he will have changed his mind as will many others.

Let the good times roll. GGTTH.

[Brightside]

Make no mistake the club will continue to be run in the same financial manner. So blaming Petrie is daft unless you have a friendly Billionaire on hand

There is no quick fix.
Our U20 setup is doing very well and should be left to develop under its current leadership.
The new management team need time to get the right blend of players in that will take us forward, and get them playing the way they want.
We need to expect poor results but hopefully we'll get more decent results as we move forward.

Patience and time are required.

[judas]

My proposal.

1. Ban woman from spectating.
2. Have a naked lady parade at half time
3. Insist that all fans and staff grow taches in solidarity with rod.
4 allow drinking from cans inside stadium.
5. Make terry Hurlock tackling coach.
6. Paint the urinals maroon.
7. Bring back our Insave strip
8. Fill in the corners.

[Hibernia&Alba]

My proposal.

1. Ban woman from spectating.
2. Have a naked lady parade at half time
3. Insist that all fans and staff grow taches in solidarity with rod.
4 allow drinking from cans inside stadium.
5. Make terry Hurlock tackling coach.
6. Paint the urinals maroon.
7. Bring back our Insave strip
8. Fill in the corners.

Good evening Mr Petrie. I was hitherto unaware of your membership of Hibs.net.


On a serious note, the task of sorting out Hibernian at his point seems so enormous that I wouldn't know where to begin. One thing I'm passionate about is the club finding imaginative ways to increase attendances. A less than half full ER is a sorry sight and needs addressing.

[Chump]

We all want to see improvement. I think that's a given? But given the outpouring of vitriol against all and sundry involved at the club over the past couple of days, it appears that people are good at screaming and crap at coming up with anything other than "oohhh we're so sh***" and ripping half our team a new one with abuse.

Your comment on Stevenson is a case in point. He is, by Scottish standards and our football economy, as solid pro. If he was a bit better, he'd probably be in the Championship or OF by now. He's the type of player we can afford, and sadly we can't afford Messi's. We are absolutely hostages to the economics of the game, and the margins between a player who can command, say £2k a week and £2.5K a week are so small our extra spending power will only be significant in term sof results over a long period, not a game or a season. This is why we can get beat by teams like Raith in a game but over the piece we will be better than them. The average performance by teams since the SPL came in is almost precisely aligned with turnover.

As it happens I think we were't lacking in fight, we were lacking in inspiration.

If that isn't a 'throw away' statement as you called it in you OP then I don't know what is!!

How would you inspire the club, management, fans and players alike oh mighty Jedi Master??

[Ship Hibs]

Swap the word England for Hibs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDMx3kYe7ZY

[Eyrie]

Petrie has a track record of managing our finances well whilst still providing good funds for our managers to invest in the playing squad. It's been the standard of signing that has let us down. However I can see the budget for next year being reduced due to our early cup exit and no derbies.

The Butcher/Malpas/Marsella team has a good track record in assembling a capable squad on limited funds, so I'd wait to see how they get on in the summer transfer window. No point to bringing them here and then not letting them do it their way.

I do agree with the comments about communication from the club. I can see the reason behind allowing a story that Collins cost £200k to spread, but I'd rather the club was honest about the fee to reduce the pressure on the player. And next time Thomson cheats us, let's highlight the decision on the club website.

Finally, I'd appoint a director of football strategy to oversee everything. He'd be in charge of signing the school kids and appointing youth coaches to develop a consistent style of football throughout the age groups, including the u20s. He'd also oversee a permanent scouting network to monitor not just players but coaches as well, so that we know who the bright prospects are and their approach to the game. And I'd make sure that our next manager and every manager thereafter shares our footballing philosophy so that the progression from the u20s to the first team is easier. But the manager will have complete say over the first team squad - signings, tactics, discipline etc.

[E10 Rifle]

I'm going to start drinking heavily and suggest others follow suit

[RIP Bestie]

]Petrie has a track record of managing our finances well whilst still providing good funds for our managers to invest in the playing squad. It's been the standard of signing that has let us down.[/B] However I can see the budget for next year being reduced due to our early cup exit and no derbies.

The Butcher/Malpas/Marsella team has a good track record in assembling a capable squad on limited funds, so I'd wait to see how they get on in the summer transfer window. No point to bringing them here and then not letting them do it their way.

I do agree with the comments about communication from the club. I can see the reason behind allowing a story that Collins cost £200k to spread, but I'd rather the club was honest about the fee to reduce the pressure on the player. And next time Thomson cheats us, let's highlight the decision on the club website.

Finally, I'd appoint a director of football strategy to oversee everything. He'd be in charge of signing the school kids and appointing youth coaches to develop a consistent style of football throughout the age groups, including the u20s. He'd also oversee a permanent scouting network to monitor not just players but coaches as well, so that we know who the bright prospects are and their approach to the game. And I'd make sure that our next manager and every manager thereafter shares our footballing philosophy so that the progression from the u20s to the first team is easier. But the manager will have complete say over the first team squad - signings, tactics, discipline etc.
I couldn't agree more with the bit in bold. I think the overriding issue with this, however, is that due to the amount of managers we have gone through over the past seven or eight years the emphasis on our signings has been quantity rather than quality. This is simply because each manager has found it necessary to make several changes in order to put their own mark on the team. Unfortunately this has resulted in a reduction in quality year on year. Although I would have to say that Fenlons signing were an improvement on Calderwoods. I think that for Butcher to make his mark and to see a marked improvement we will again have to see a high turnover of the playing squad. Since we don't really have anyone we can sell and therefore no boost to the budget, it means that once again the transfer budget will have to be diluted by the need to make multiple mediocre signings rather than a couple with real quality. Just a thought.

[Ronniekirk]

I reckon we're all just a bit seething because we've blown a great chance to win the holy grail.
We have to give the management team some time. So, what i want is, The Scottish cup at Easter road within three years.

Realistically we were never going to win the Scottish cup , so folk are pissed off we got put out by a team we think we should be beating at home . Your time frame of three years may well be needed given that we need a big influx of new players in the summer but will still have Heff and Nelson and Craig and Robertson and others still under contract for another year . So you are talking two summer transfer windows before he will have his own team with hopefully Stanton ,Foster and Harris. And maybe Cummings all experienced first team players by then playing in positions that fit into T B s System Players like Lewis may have to be jettisoned in order to give him as big a budget for new players as possible ..We need players that can handle the pressure and we need players that when we do go behind can force teams to make mistakes and players that can break down well organised teams We seem to have accepted a lack of this type of player in last few years and it's costing us

[Twa Cairpets]

If that isn't a 'throw away' statement as you called it in you OP then I don't know what is!!

How would you inspire the club, management, fans and players alike oh mighty Jedi Master??

Mr Mighty Jedi Master to you.

In context, and in response to the point made, it wasn;t really a throwaway line at all was it? I disagreed with the claim of lack of effort, I think that we lost as we didn't have enough creativity within the team on the day to unlock the way Raith played, and didn't get the ball to the one player who clearly did have that in him in Watmore (partly as he was booted up in the air every time he touched the ball in the first 10 mins, partly as Raith man-marked him and always had a covering midfielder looking to cut out any through ball. They did it very well.

I told you in the OP, I'm confident that when Butcher has a full window and gets the players he wants in, then we'll be back on the road to enjoying the games consistently.

[Chump]

Mr Mighty Jedi Master to you.

In context, and in response to the point made, it wasn;t really a throwaway line at all was it? I disagreed with the claim of lack of effort, I think that we lost as we didn't have enough creativity within the team on the day to unlock the way Raith played, and didn't get the ball to the one player who clearly did have that in him in Watmore (partly as he was booted up in the air every time he touched the ball in the first 10 mins, partly as Raith man-marked him and always had a covering midfielder looking to cut out any through ball. They did it very well.

I told you in the OP, I'm confident that when Butcher has a full window and gets the players he wants in, then we'll be back on the road to enjoying the games consistently.

I would love to share your optimism but unless we offload the following and replace them with better players and commit to a style of football that encourages possession on the deck then it's more of the same for me and more of the .net outbursts on a regular basis;

Murdock
Maybury
McPake
Cairney
Zoubir
OTJ
Taiwo
McGivern
Heffernan
Caldwell
Booth


We have a squad of 31 - too many for the SPL. Get rid of those above that haven't really added anything of real authority/positivity to Hibs and that takes the squad down to 20. A few youngsters on the fringes get more experience and I see us needing 6 good players in lieu of the 11 wages saved from above. I would target a striker with real pace that likes to run the channels and play on the shoulder of last defender. I'd have Stanton, Craig and target another creative midfielder to work as a 3 behind the lone striker and then have KT to control pace of game and break things up in front of defence with another central midfielder to come in to connect to the three in front. That leaves 3 defender to sign.....right back, left back and a centre half. the two full backs need to have pace as there will be quite a bit of the pitch to cover between the front three midfielders and the full backs. 4-2-3-1.....possession through the 5 in midfield with pace and movement. Only way forward for me....

[Stringer]

Last time we had success there was a core of youth players. Caldwell, Handling, Harris and Stanton should be making up our front 4. McGivern is a strange one. Saw his first game against Aberdeen, he came on and looked a player of real quality. Since then his defensive decisions have been seriously poor. Would start him in the team but think he is better as a DM.

My team would look like this. Haven't seen any of the new signing play so...


Williams


Forster Hanlon Nelson Stevenson


Robertson KT McGivern


Handling Stanton Harris

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

I think folk saying we had no chance of winning it this year are trying to soften the blow a bit. I agree, we were far from favourites but its opened up like a hippos yawn now with Celtic, Motherwell, Hearts and Dundee Utd/Inverness all out. We're on a bad run at the moment but with 4 weeks until the quarters I would hope we'd have picked up a bit. Apart from Aberdeen, there's no other team left that were not capable of beating in a one off game. So yeah, we probably wouldn't have won it but its certainly frustrating that we've blown a decent chance.

[Twa Cairpets]

I would love to share your optimism but unless we offload the following and replace them with better players and commit to a style of football that encourages possession on the deck then it's more of the same for me and more of the .net outbursts on a regular basis;

Murdock Would think he's hardly a huge drain on resources an needed just in case
Maybury Almost certainly move to a coaching role either here or elsewhere
McPake Would be wrong to cast him out, have doubts he'll play again but hope he can get back to how he was when he first joined, otherwise he'll retire
Cairney Think he'll be sold
Zoubir will go back to France
OTJ Probably sold/released
Taiwo Told he can go, but has played well last couple of games and never really done anything wrong.
McGivern Personally think he could be great, but decisionmaking is terrifyingly bad sometimes. I'd persevere with Butcher and Malpas having been defenders
Heffernan Good player but doesn't I think fit into TB's style, reckon he'll go on the summer
Caldwell Haven't seen anything to make me think he's a Premier league player, goal at the PBS notwithstanding
Booth think he'll go permanently to Raith - out the picture too long


We have a squad of 31 - too many for the SPL. Get rid of those above that haven't really added anything of real authority/positivity to Hibs and that takes the squad down to 20. A few youngsters on the fringes get more experience and I see us needing 6 good players in lieu of the 11 wages saved from above. I would target a striker with real pace that likes to run the channels and play on the shoulder of last defender. I'd have Stanton, Craig and target another creative midfielder to work as a 3 behind the lone striker and then have KT to control pace of game and break things up in front of defence with another central midfielder to come in to connect to the three in front. That leaves 3 defender to sign.....right back, left back and a centre half. the two full backs need to have pace as there will be quite a bit of the pitch to cover between the front three midfielders and the full backs. 4-2-3-1.....possession through the 5 in midfield with pace and movement. Only way forward for me....

Despite you wanting KT, pretty sure he'll go in the summer too. There may be one or two others as well - I think Nelson is a decent squad pro but don't quite know if he is what TB wants long term. Handling appears to have disappeared too. Take out the loanees and that means that of the 27 permanent players, realistically around 10 may not be at Hibs at the start of the season. Assuming they're replaced by permanent signings, then we could be looking at a radically different starting 11 next year.

[Brightside]

Despite you wanting KT, pretty sure he'll go in the summer too. There may be one or two others as well - I think Nelson is a decent squad pro but don't quite know if he is what TB wants long term. Handling appears to have disappeared too. Take out the loanees and that means that of the 27 permanent players, realistically around 10 may not be at Hibs at the start of the season. Assuming they're replaced by permanent signings, then we could be looking at a radically different starting 11 next year.

Exactly.. Dont really understand that list. Murdoch is a sub goalie on pennies. Maybury IS a coach in the u20s who registered as a a player again AS A FAVOUR to provide cover. Yet still some of our fans slate the boy every time he comes on.

You've then picked out a few that are on loan already??

I think Cairney will go as he simply doesnt have the pace for this level. OTJ has played a handfull of games since signing but he doesnt seem to be getting a look in to a TB side. Nelson is simply not good enough. McGivern is not good enough.

I think we will sign a new RB, LB and CH in the summer. A solid CM. A pacy and skillfull AM. and a striker.

[coco mc]

This

QUOTE=Eyrie;3904135]Petrie has a track record of managing our finances well whilst still providing good funds for our managers to invest in the playing squad. It's been the standard of signing that has let us down. However I can see the budget for next year being reduced due to our early cup exit and no derbies.

The Butcher/Malpas/Marsella team has a good track record in assembling a capable squad on limited funds, so I'd wait to see how they get on in the summer transfer window. No point to bringing them here and then not letting them do it their way.

I do agree with the comments about communication from the club. I can see the reason behind allowing a story that Collins cost £200k to spread, but I'd rather the club was honest about the fee to reduce the pressure on the player. And next time Thomson cheats us, let's highlight the decision on the club website.

Finally, I'd appoint a director of football strategy to oversee everything. He'd be in charge of signing the school kids and appointing youth coaches to develop a consistent style of football throughout the age groups, including the u20s. He'd also oversee a permanent scouting network to monitor not just players but coaches as well, so that we know who the bright prospects are and their approach to the game. And I'd make sure that our next manager and every manager thereafter shares our footballing philosophy so that the progression from the u20s to the first team is easier. But the manager will have complete say over the first team squad - signings, tactics, discipline etc.[/QUOTE]

[Lucius Apuleius]

What gets me with certain posters is the fact that they can tell us the tactics are all wrong and how we should be lining up. IMO Champ manager experts. Butcher knows what he is doing based on the track record he had before coming. Unfortunately, we are yet again in a position where we have to give him time. We say that before every managerial appointment and this time it really has to happen,imo.

[steakbake]

I'd have a bit of a clear out in the summer, tie down the youngsters on longer term contracts, identify the spine of the team and build around that. I hate to say it as well, but I don't think we have up front sorted yet. We created plenty of chances v Raith, some of them were clear-cut and a striker on his game would have nestled it in the onion bag. Heffernan's miss at the end was a real chance but he's not getting in regularly enough so it could be forgiven if he's not entirely match sharp.

Collins hasn't so far convinced me. It crossed my mind on saturday whether he's got a guaranteed number of games in his contract because I'm not sure why he's an instant first choice start. He's a player that needs assistance because he doesn't seem to be able to do it on his own. Haynes looks like a real prospect and he also had a great chance on Saturday to score. Watmore - exciting player. It's a long time since I've seen a Hibs player skin an opposition defender and while one or two of his passes went astray, in the main he was imaginative and made good moves. Shame his team-mates aren't on the same wavelength. The hoofball has to stop - some players seem to think having the ball is like trying to hold a hot potato. This hopeless belting the ball up in the air and seeing where it lands in the hope that we can scrap it out further on up the pitch has to be cut out of our game. That to me is players who are nervous and rattled and I'd find it hard to believe that was an actual tactic.

What would I actually do - remove internet access for the bedwetters and give it some more time. The guy in front of me concluded on Saturday that Butcher wasn't the answer - sorry, but we can do without that. If we're in the same position this time next year, then that might not be quite such a ludicrous thing to say, but 12 weeks in, a team with variable quality chosen by the previous manager, 3 loan signings only at the club for less than a week and deciding the manager isn't up to it is ridiculous.

I was glad to see the back of Calderwood and Fenlon but we'd be making a massive mistake if somehow, the bedwetting became a torrent of pish that forced Petrie to cover his arse again at the next AGM.

[Brightside]

What gets me with certain posters is the fact that they can tell us the tactics are all wrong and how we should be lining up. IMO Champ manager experts. Butcher knows what he is doing based on the track record he had before coming. Unfortunately, we are yet again in a position where we have to give him time. We say that before every managerial appointment and this time it really has to happen,imo.

Agreed he does need time... BUT the 4231 against Raith was wrong. :greengrin

BTW the hoofball will only stop when the fans stop screaming at players to punt it all the time!

[Lucius Apuleius]

Agreed he does need time... BUT the 4231 against Raith was wrong. :greengrin

BTW the hoofball will only stop when the fans stop screaming at players to punt it all the time!

Now the second sentence I agree with. The number of people screaming when we are holding the ball to get it up the f'n park then screaming hoofball when we do really gets on my threepenny bits! I appreciate there is a happy medium but not in some folk's eyes!

[Reaper]

Now the second sentence I agree with. The number of people screaming when we are holding the ball to get it up the f'n park then screaming hoofball when we do really gets on my threepenny bits! I appreciate there is a happy medium but not in some folk's eyes!

Agree, there's a lot of contradiction going on. I think what's key is we need to realise the club, not the just team or manager need to pull in the same direction.

1. I think the club need to show a bit ambition, push the boat out wee bit and I think they are, the start being the acquisition of the correct managerial team, which for a change wasn't the cheap option.

2. The best managers are the ones who recruit players based on ability AND their suitability for the system they want to play. I think TB has proven he works this way at ICT. SAF done it for years at Man U, mixing world class ability with sometimes average players, who suited his system, making it an effective unit. Jose has just emptied Mata from Chelsea, their best player last year but he didn't fit his system. Real Madrid proved the eleven best players in their system doesn't automatically make a team. (I think Collins suffers now as PF didn't have the ability to identify players based on their suitability to our system).

3. Part of TBs ability to make No.2 happen is the boards willingness to secure his primary targets. I appreciate it won't happen 100% of the time but there needs to be a happy medium.

4. There's been a lot of comparisons with Aberdeen. Granted we are similar but a few small differences are there. Aberdeen have appointed a manager and backed him financially. The difference is that manager was unemployed at the time and their previous managers retired so that transition didn't cost them anything. Financial backing goes hand in hand with the second point I made. McInnes has signed the right players, not just thrown money randomly. Also Aberdeen might be ahead on the park but are behind in terms of the clubs legacy (Training facilities, stadium etc)

5. TB signed 3 loan players in Jan and quashed the rumour that we were outbid for Adam Rooney. He came from ICT, a club who he has deep affection for and a chance to win their first major trophy. I don't think he would have come if he didn't buy into the boards vision for the future or build a competitive team with the budget available. He didn't want Rooney long term. I trust his judgement. He chose to make three loans and wait till the summer. I trust his judgement.

6. The Hoofball theories etc..........We need to judge his style when he has his own players. He's working with players he didn't sign and he's trying to work out the best way to utilise these. He's going to make mistakes when doing so.

I know folk will be fed up of the Stadium, not his players etc etc. Rome wasn't built in a day. I want to be where Aberdeen are BUT I want to get there for the long term not just a 2/3 year stint and I think Aberdeen will be lucky to get that. I'm confident good things are about to happen.........we just need to stick with it a wee bit longer. GGTTH.

[silverhibee]

14 players out of contract in the summer, i think, any idea who the 14 are.

[Greenworld]

I'm going to start drinking heavily and suggest others follow suit

Too late im already an alcoholic