Motherwell Report A Loss Of £180,498

[Mikey]

Despite finishing second...........

http://www.motherwell-mad.co.uk/news/tmnw/well_in_the_red_again_822693/index.shtml

[Jones28]

European competition is actually costing teams if they fail to qualify for the group stages.

Pish poor crowds doesn't help though, they got what, 5000? In a second vs third game at the weekend?

[Pete]

Old Rangers disappear and the prize money for second is reduced dramatically for some strange reason. As long as Celtic and newco are OK.

[Twa Cairpets]

Old Rangers disappear and the prize money for second is reduced dramatically for some strange reason. As long as Celtic and newco are OK.

This is what all the teams wanted? Don't see your point.

[Mikey]

Old Rangers disappear and the prize money for second is reduced dramatically for some strange reason. As long as Celtic and newco are OK.

The other 11 agreed the new split of cash from places 2-12 among themselves. So the teams from 3-12 would have got more than originally agreed, with only second getting a lower than original amount.

[PatHead]

Always wondered how Cup top ups were treated and it seems as though the away club get a cut assuming they had paid.

"The early cup exits proved to be costly. Although we had a share of the gate at Ibrox from the league Cup tie, the cut Aberdeen (http://www.aberdeen-mad.co.uk/) received from our home Scottish Cup clash was made on the basis that all spectators paid at the gate regardless that season tickets were valid. This benefit to season ticket holders appears to be under threat."

[edinburghhibee]

Can someone tell me had the 11-1 majority been changed yet I always thought this should have been the first thing to get shot of when rangers died but heard nothing about it since the death???

[PatHead]

Can someone tell me had the 11-1 majority been changed yet I always thought this should have been the first thing to get shot of when rangers died but heard nothing about it since the death???

Not initially unless the formation of SPFL got rid of the rule. Think it was Aberdeen who blocked it.

[Mikey]

Always wondered how Cup top ups were treated and it seems as though the away club get a cut assuming they had paid.

"The early cup exits proved to be costly. Although we had a share of the gate at Ibrox from the league Cup tie, the cut Aberdeen (http://www.aberdeen-mad.co.uk/) received from our home Scottish Cup clash was made on the basis that all spectators paid at the gate regardless that season tickets were valid. This benefit to season ticket holders appears to be under threat."

On a purely financial basis it would be better for the club if all of our cup games were away from home!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Not initially unless the formation of SPFL got rid of the rule. Think it was Aberdeen who blocked it.


The new Aberdeen-Celtic voting axis...?

[nribs]

Despite finishing second...........

http://www.motherwell-mad.co.uk/news/tmnw/well_in_the_red_again_822693/index.shtml
Cheats

[Pete]

The other 11 agreed the new split of cash from places 2-12 among themselves. So the teams from 3-12 would have got more than originally agreed, with only second getting a lower than original amount.

If it was still an 11-1 voting system, why didn't the clubs opt for a new split of cash from places 1-12?

Seems strange because that would have ensured a more even distribution overall.

[Ringothedog]

On a purely financial basis it would be better for the club if all of our cup games were away from home!

:confused: why would that be the case ?

[superfurryhibby]

I fear for the future of Scottish clubs. It's clear we don't have enough supporters to go round and too many full time clubs competing for what's available.

There needs to be some realism about what's happening. With Hearts and The Rangers out the top flight next season teams will lose even more money through the gates. For Hibs it's at least the equivalent of two home games revenue per season, in terms of diminished gate money.

Is it not time for drastic measures on the part of the SPL? I'd start by making teams share the home gates receipts, prizemoney and the tv revenues equally. Spreading the wealth a bit would make sense?

Problem is that I love football but I know sweet FA about the finances. Like how much does TV money actually contribute to our game? Does it really offset the money lost through the turnstile (Sundays game being a case in point).

If Motherwell can't at least break even on the back of a successful playing season then what hope is there. Maybe our game does need a fundamental shakeup and a large dose of reality. Summer football anyone?

[Hibstrooper]

Cheats

Christian, Christiaaann

[Wighty76]

Motherwell must be asking themselves what the point is. They finish second and get into Europe and still report a loss. In terms of success teams can't ask for much more.

[Elephant Stone]

Christian, Christiaaann

:hilarious

[greenlex]

I fear for the future of Scottish clubs. It's clear we don't have enough supporters to go round and too many full time clubs competing for what's available.

There needs to be some realism about what's happening. With Hearts and The Rangers out the top flight next season teams will lose even more money through the gates. For Hibs it's at least the equivalent of two home games revenue per season, in terms of diminished gate money.

Is it not time for drastic measures on the part of the SPL? I'd start by making teams share the home gates receipts, prizemoney and the tv revenues equally. Spreading the wealth a bit would make sense?

Problem is that I love football but I know sweet FA about the finances. Like how much does TV money actually contribute to our game? Does it really offset the money lost through the turnstile (Sundays game being a case in point).

If Motherwell can't at least break even on the back of a successful playing season then what hope is there. Maybe our game does need a fundamental shakeup and a large dose of reality. Summer football anyone?
If Dundee come up they will take just as many away fans as hearts do to every other club bar us.

[weonlywon6-2]

I fear for the future of Scottish clubs. It's clear we don't have enough supporters to go round and too many full time clubs competing for what's available.

There needs to be some realism about what's happening. With Hearts and The Rangers out the top flight next season teams will lose even more money through the gates. For Hibs it's at least the equivalent of two home games revenue per season, in terms of diminished gate money.

Is it not time for drastic measures on the part of the SPL? I'd start by making teams share the home gates receipts, prizemoney and the tv revenues equally. Spreading the wealth a bit would make sense?

Problem is that I love football but I know sweet FA about the finances. Like how much does TV money actually contribute to our game? Does it really offset the money lost through the turnstile (Sundays game being a case in point).

If Motherwell can't at least break even on the back of a successful playing season then what hope is there. Maybe our game does need a fundamental shakeup and a large dose of reality. Summer football anyone?


you make a lot of good points but home sharing their gates is just not right.
great if your aupport is small goi g to a full parkhead but its not fair on them.

[Mikey]

:confused: why would that be the case ?

The cup top up money would be in the bank and we would get the split from the home team.

[Devonhibs]

At the end of the day, all this is highlighting again is a club still living beyond its means - how much more would they have lost if they had finished outside of the top six!

[Diclonius]

If people in Motherwell actually bothered to see their team rather than getting on dozens of supporters buses to Glasgow every Saturday then they wouldn't be in this situation.

Success is wasted on Motherwell.

[poolman]

If people in Motherwell actually bothered to see their team rather than getting on dozens of supporters buses to Glasgow every Saturday then they wouldn't be in this situation.

Success is wasted on Motherwell.

Spot on

One of my biggest piss me off things are all these born and bred people from Edinburgh swanning off to Weegieland of a Saturday with their green or blue rags on

[green&left]

Spot on

One of my biggest piss me off things are all these born and bred people from Edinburgh swanning off to Weegieland of a Saturday with their green or blue rags on

Is something that pisses me off, however are they any worse than Hibs/Motherwell/Aberdeen etc etc who enjoy their wee jaunt to Hampden only to not be seen again until the next time? Fan bases are their for all clubs, its just getting them to come back and go more regularly that's the issue.

I think we're all just finding our level to be honest. Our league is far top over priced for fans, we're a bawhair from the sooper Dooper English premier league so people think our standard is woeful. There's football on the box every night for fans to get a footy fix, lots of reasons. Probably only going to get worse too now we've lost a generation to Sky Sports.

[Ronniekirk]

European competition is actually costing teams if they fail to qualify for the group stages.

Pish poor crowds doesn't help though, they got what, 5000? In a second vs third game at the weekend?
Spot on and St Johnstone said they also lost money on European adventure given distance they had to fly ,so maybe that's why Petrie doesn't want us challenging for second place :rolleyes:

[Hibernia Na Eir]

no sympathy for that ugly mob of Hun sympathisers/apologists. Hopefully BDO tap their door again sometime soon.

[Jones28]

If people in Motherwell actually bothered to see their team rather than getting on dozens of supporters buses to Glasgow every Saturday then they wouldn't be in this situation.

Success is wasted on Motherwell.

Absolutely spot on.

[Ringothedog]

The cup top up money would be in the bank and we would get the split from the home team.

DOH! Never thought about it from that angle.

[matty_f]

They can post a loss without being cheats, it's when that loss becomes unaffordable that there's an issue. If company A has 2 million quid in the bank and posts an annual loss of 1 million quid then they've been able to absorb that loss and still pay their way.

If they'd bumped their bills and still made a loss (in fact, even if they made a profit in that case) then they're cheating.

[Jonnyboy]

They can post a loss without being cheats, it's when that loss becomes unaffordable that there's an issue. If company A has 2 million quid in the bank and posts an annual loss of 1 million quid then they've been able to absorb that loss and still pay their way.

If they'd bumped their bills and still made a loss (in fact, even if they made a profit in that case) then they're cheating.

Indeed. Hibs posted a loss recently

[Jack]

On a turnover of about £6m that sort of loss isn't bad.

[Bishop Hibee]

On a turnover of about £6m that sort of loss isn't bad.

I didn't think it seemed too bad either. If they produce 1 decent player amd flog them then the loss is probably more than covered.

[IWasThere2016]

Does the loss come after any fees for players?

[Ozyhibby]

If people in Motherwell actually bothered to see their team rather than getting on dozens of supporters buses to Glasgow every Saturday then they wouldn't be in this situation.

Success is wasted on Motherwell.

Motherwell's average gate is about 8% of the population of Motherwell. If we could do the same we would have crowds around the 35,000 mark.
The SPFL is the best supported league in Europe per head of population.

[Diclonius]

Motherwell's average gate is about 8% of the population of Motherwell. If we could do the same we would have crowds around the 35,000 mark.
The SPFL is the best supported league in Europe per head of population.

Given we share the city with another team, half that figure would be more accurate.

[sparky]

you make a lot of good points but home sharing their gates is just not right.
great if your aupport is small goi g to a full parkhead but its not fair on them.

I agree it would not be fair on Celtc. However one team with 10 times the wage budget of everyone else is not a fair league.

I would go even further and pool ALL revenue and share it out evenly. Sponsorships, shirt sales, player sales champions league revenue, everything. Each team would then have the exact same budget and an overall wage cap and it would be up to the manager to spend it wisely.

Imagine going into a season where any team could win it or even get relegated. Who knows it might even be exiting to watch.

Obviously this would not happen as in football the individual clubs put their own interests first and the league second when it should be the other way round. If the league lacks competition then nobody is interested in watching it.

[Stax]

Motherwell's average gate is about 8% of the population of Motherwell. If we could do the same we would have crowds around the 35,000 mark.
The SPFL is the best supported league in Europe per head of population.
Really? Not being cheeky just genuinely surprised at this. I think everyone agrees crowds everywhere have been on a downward spiral for years now.

[sparky]

Really? Not being cheeky just genuinely surprised at this. I think everyone agrees crowds everywhere have been on a downward spiral for years now.

Scotland does have a higher attendance figure per head of population than the big leagues such as England, Spain, Germany etc. Even with Rangers' extinction. Don't known about how we compare to some of the smaller countries of comparable size. Also how many people come over from N. Ireland?

Most of the leagues also have a huge disparity between highest and lowest attendances. With teams at the bottom having a fraction of the largest teams crowd.

The big difference is that other countries don't have such a huge drop between the top 1 (or 2) teams. The attendances decline gradually as you go down the league.

There are many possible reasons for this and I'm sure a certain unhealthy rivalry in the west might have something to do with it.

What would make for a more competitive league would be for the bigger city based teams to be getting average attendances of 15 to 20 and the old Old Firm to drop back down to the 20 to 30k crowds.

[Ozyhibby]

Really? Not being cheeky just genuinely surprised at this. I think everyone agrees crowds everywhere have been on a downward spiral for years now.

Don't have any stats but when I started attending the football in the 80's, crowds were lower than we have now.

[superfurryhibby]

If Dundee come up they will take just as many away fans as hearts do to every other club bar us.

I don't think that's the case, indeed far from it. Check attendence stats and you'll see that HIbs and Hearts take much tbigger away supports. Our two games against Hearts at ER had c 36,000 attending. Our average home gate this season has been under 10,000 (barring Hearts and Celtic).

I can't do the double quote thing but reagrding sharing home gates. It was the done thing in SCottish football until the OF vetoed it sometime in the late 80's early 90's. The basis for arguing for it is to address the financial issues and re-distribute some of the cash. Given that we are seeing such a lot of financial issues in the SPl, it makes sense. Celtic need other teams to play against. They benefit still by getting what is almost automatic access to qualification for the massive riches from the champions league. The interest of the majority should prevail. Sadly, self interst will probably nev er allow this.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Spot on

One of my biggest piss me off things are all these born and bred people from Edinburgh swanning off to Weegieland of a Saturday with their green or blue rags on

And us Denny, Stirling, Dunblane, Perth, Glasgow, Carnoustie, Dundee and Blackpool swanning off to Embra to watch the Hibees?:wink:

Awright, took it too far with Blackpool and Dundee.

[speedy_gonzales]

And us Denny, Stirling, Dunblane, Perth, Glasgow, Carnoustie, Dundee and Blackpool swanning off to Embra to watch the Hibees?:wink:

Awright, took it too far with Blackpool and Dundee.
Nothing but glory hunters!:wink:

[Lucius Apuleius]

Nothing but glory hunters!:wink:

:agree::greengrin

[greenlex]

I don't think that's the case, indeed far from it. Check attendence stats and you'll see that HIbs and Hearts take much tbigger away supports. Our two games against Hearts at ER had c 36,000 attending. Our average home gate this season has been under 10,000 (barring Hearts and Celtic). I looked at this when there was a chance Hearts would go into admin last season. Their attendances at other spl grounds the difference was minimal. In fact Im sure Dundee actullay took more to Killie than they did IIRC. The effect on Hibs would be different where they bring far more than Dundee. Everyone else wouldn't notice much of a difference financially on those figures.

[Keith_M]

Motherwell and Kilmarnock have been the two clubs biggest hit by the absence of Rangers, attendance wise*. I wouldn't be surprised if this loss was entirely down to that fact.




* I think there's an argument to say Celtc attendances are even worse, but they mask that with misleading figures.

[Diclonius]

And us Denny, Stirling, Dunblane, Perth, Glasgow, Carnoustie, Dundee and Blackpool swanning off to Embra to watch the Hibees?:wink:

Awright, took it too far with Blackpool and Dundee.

I'm from Longstone originally. :wink:

Applying the "nearest team" logic however means I should be a Jambo.. :rolleyes:

[inglisavhibs]

They can post a loss without being cheats, it's when that loss becomes unaffordable that there's an issue. If company A has 2 million quid in the bank and posts an annual loss of 1 million quid then they've been able to absorb that loss and still pay their way.

If they'd bumped their bills and still made a loss (in fact, even if they made a profit in that case) then they're cheating.

These financial results are reasonably healthy for a provincial club like Motherwell. McCall was on the radio last week saying that the financial situation was reasonably good and allowed him to keep the same budget as last season. It has not hindered them much as we can see from the league table. McCall also said that their European games cost them money and hoped that the Europa League early stages would be played on a regional basis in the future. Despite earlier mismanagement I think Motherwell are now a well run club who punch above their weight. It's also not their fault that most of their town's inhabitants chose to follow the old firm team's. we should applaud the ones that resist the temptation and follow their local club.

[Moulin Yarns]

you make a lot of good points but home sharing their gates is just not right.
great if your aupport is small goi g to a full parkhead but its not fair on them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The technology is in place that number of fans of each club attending are known so the gate money can be split accordingly after expenses.

[Keith_M]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The technology is in place that number of fans of each club attending are known so the gate money can be split accordingly after expenses.


I'd imagine clubs like Motherwell would be even bigger losers if that were the case. Think of the situation currently...

Most clubs suffer because the majority of our population are glory hunters who choose to follow Celtc and The Rangers. This means that, for instance, Motherwell currently struggle because a majority of the locals would rather go to either Parkhead or Ibrox. The only small crumb of comfort they currently have is that 2 or 3 times a year, they get to make a bit of money out of these people. You're now suggesting that even that is taken away.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd imagine clubs like Motherwell would be even bigger losers if that were the case. Think of the situation currently...

Most clubs suffer because the majority of our population are glory hunters who choose to follow Celtc and The Rangers. This means that, for instance, Motherwell currently struggle because a majority of the locals would rather go to either Parkhead or Ibrox. The only small crumb of comfort they currently have is that 2 or 3 times a year, they get to make a bit of money out of these people. You're now suggesting that even that is taken away.

In my scenario, if I go to St Johnstone to support Hibs, then Hibs benefit because the bulk of my money goes to the team I support rather than the Perth Saints. This would, IMHO, encourage fans to support their team both home and away.

[Mikey]

In my scenario, if I go to St Johnstone to support Hibs, then Hibs benefit because the bulk of my money goes to the team I support rather than the Perth Saints. This would, IMHO, encourage fans to support their team both home and away.

Yes, but when 350 St Johnstone fans turn up at ER their club gets a cut from each one of the 9,000 Hibs fans that attend. It wouldn't be good for Hibs.

[SMAXXA]

In my scenario, if I go to St Johnstone to support Hibs, then Hibs benefit because the bulk of my money goes to the team I support rather than the Perth Saints. This would, IMHO, encourage fans to support their team both home and away.

Isn't this what my point on the thread I started yesterday???? :confused:

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, but when 350 St Johnstone fans turn up at ER their club gets a cut from each one of the 9,000 Hibs fans that attend. It wouldn't be good for Hibs.

I didn't explain it very well. 350 Saints fans @£22, less costs for stewards etc = £6000 for arguments sake. Hibs take 1000 to Perth @£22 =£20000 to Hibs. Not like the 70's when the money was split. Now it is possible to share gate money according to the crowd split.

[Eyrie]

I didn't explain it very well. 350 Saints fans @£22, less costs for stewards etc = £6000 for arguments sake. Hibs take 1000 to Perth @£22 =£20000 to Hibs. Not like the 70's when the money was split. Now it is possible to share gate money according to the crowd split.

So more Hibs fans going to Perth means more money for Hibs, but also higher costs of stewarding for St Johnstone without a commensurate increase in their income? Can only see your proposal weakening the smaller teams in the SPL.

[Keith_M]

In my scenario, if I go to St Johnstone to support Hibs, then Hibs benefit because the bulk of my money goes to the team I support rather than the Perth Saints. This would, IMHO, encourage fans to support their team both home and away.


If people want to give more money to Hibs, they can already do so by attending home games more.

Your proposal would only benefit the better supported clubs and hit the smaller clubs in the pocket.

Hibs take maybe 500 to Parkhead and Celtc bring nearly 4,000 to Easter Road. If we did what you suggested, Hibs would be worse off by the cost of about 7,500 Cat A tickets every season (assuming we play them twice).


Not for me thanks.