PDA

View Full Version : Referee's performance in Hibs games (stats)



big-mo
27-01-2014, 03:54 PM
First of all, I do not want to be seen like one of those conspiracy theorists that you get a Darkheid or the PBS, but I thought that I would have a look at referee’s performance at Hibs games since the start of season 2011-12.
I broke it down to the numbers of games each were in charge, number of yellow and red cards given to Hibs players and number of penalties awarded to Hibs. I did start to look at the cards, pens etc. given to opposition players in these games to get a contrast but I was only able to find that information going back to Jan’ 2013, if anyone has the details or knows where I can find that info, please let me know. (There may have been a few more penalties which may have been saved or missed.)
In this period we have had 117 competitive games refereed by Scottish Refs, this excluded the two games that were abandoned, Motherwell and Killie. We have had 19 different refs, 4 have only been in charge for one game each. I have also worked out the average of yellow cards per game for each ref. I will let you draw your own conclusions. I list them in alphabetical order so as not to sway your thinking.

Awarded against Hibs (Pens for)
Crawford Allan,------- 6 games, 7 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg yellow cards per game 1.17
John Beaton,--------- 5 games, 12 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg 2.40
Iain Brines,----------- 7 games, 4 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.57
Craig Charleston,------3 games, 6 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Kevin Clancy,---------4 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.50
Willie Collum,-------- 14 games, 21 yellow, 1 red, 2 pen, avg 1.5
Brian Colvin,--------- 3 games, 3 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Mike Conroy,---------2 games, 2 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.00
Stephen Finnie,------3 games, 6 yellow, 1 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Bobby Madden,----- 13 games, 16 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.23
John McKendrick,---- 1 game, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Steve McLean,----- 13 games, 25 yellow, 1 red, 3 pens, avg 1.92
Alan Muir,----------- 5 games, 12 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.40
Calum Murray,------- 7 games, 10 yellows, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.43
Euan Norris,--------- 5 games, 8 yellows, 0 red, 2 pens, avg 1.60
Steve O’Reilly,------- 6 games, 16 yellow, 0 red, 2 pens, avg 2.67
Charlie Richmond,---- 1 games, 1 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.00
George Salmond,-----1 games, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Craig Thomson,----- 17 games, 46 yellow, 2 red, 0 pen, avg 2.71
B. Winter,----------- 1 games, 2 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00


Total 117 games, 181 yellow, 7 red, 14 pens for. Avg yellow per game 1.54

Crawford Allan,------- 4 games, 6 yellow, 2 red, 1 pen, avg yellow cards per game 1.50
John Beaton,--------- 3 games, 5 yellow,0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.67
Iain Brines,----------- 3 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.67
Craig Charleston,----- 1 games, 0 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.00
Kevin Clancy,-------- 3 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.67
Willie Collum,--------- 7 games, 11 yellow, 1 red, 0 pen, avg 1.57
Brian Colvin,----------2 games, 4 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Bobby Madden,------- 6 games, 15 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 2.50
John McKendrick,----- 1 game, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Steve McLean,------- 6 games, 5 yellow, 1 red, 0 pens, avg 0.83
Alan Muir,------------ 2 games, 3 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg 1.50
Calum Murray,-------- 1 games, 0 yellows, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.00
Euan Norris,---------- 1 games, 3 yellows, 0 red, 0 pens, avg 3.00
Craig Thomson,------- 6 games, 8 yellow, 0 red, 2 pen, avg 1.33


Total 46 games, 71 yellow, 5 red, 7 pens for, Avg yellow per game 1.54

SaulGoodman
27-01-2014, 03:57 PM
46 yellow cards in 17 games for CT says it all.

That's more than double the next closest ref, Collum who has reffed only 3 games less.

Green&White
27-01-2014, 04:14 PM
would be very interested to see thomsons stats for other teams in the spl. to compare against ours.

all in all the facts dont lie and its just plain blatant.

patlowe
27-01-2014, 04:33 PM
First of all, I do not want to be seen like one of those conspiracy theorists that you get a Darkheid or the PBS, but I thought that I would have a look at referee’s performance at Hibs games since the start of season 2011-12.
I broke it down to the numbers of games each were in charge, number of yellow and red cards given to Hibs players and number of penalties awarded to Hibs. I did start to look at the cards, pens etc. given to opposition players in these games to get a contrast but I was only able to find that information going back to Jan’ 2013, if anyone has the details or knows where I can find that info, please let me know. (There may have been a few more penalties which may have been saved or missed.)
In this period we have had 117 competitive games refereed by Scottish Refs, this excluded the two games that were abandoned, Motherwell and Killie. We have had 19 different refs, 4 have only been in charge for one game each. I have also worked out the average of yellow cards per game for each ref. I will let you draw your own conclusions. I list them in alphabetical order so as not to sway your thinking.

Awarded against Hibs (Pens for)
Crawford Allan,------- 6 games, 7 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg yellow cards per game 1.17
John Beaton,--------- 5 games, 12 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg 2.40
Iain Brines,----------- 7 games, 4 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.57
Craig Charleston,------3 games, 6 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Kevin Clancy,---------4 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.50
Willie Collum,-------- 14 games, 21 yellow, 1 red, 2 pen, avg 1.5
Brian Colvin,--------- 3 games, 3 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Mike Conroy,---------2 games, 2 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.00
Stephen Finnie,------3 games, 6 yellow, 1 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Bobby Madden,----- 13 games, 16 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.23
John McKendrick,---- 1 game, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Steve McLean,----- 13 games, 25 yellow, 1 red, 3 pens, avg 1.92
Alan Muir,----------- 5 games, 12 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.40
Calum Murray,------- 7 games, 10 yellows, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.43
Euan Norris,--------- 5 games, 8 yellows, 0 red, 2 pens, avg 1.60
Steve O’Reilly,------- 6 games, 16 yellow, 0 red, 2 pens, avg 2.67
Charlie Richmond,---- 1 games, 1 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.00
George Salmond,-----1 games, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Craig Thomson,----- 17 games, 46 yellow, 2 red, 0 pen, avg 2.71
B. Winter,----------- 1 games, 2 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00


Total 117 games, 181 yellow, 7 red, 14 pens for. Avg yellow per game 1.54

Crawford Allan,------- 4 games, 6 yellow, 2 red, 1 pen, avg yellow cards per game 1.50
John Beaton,--------- 3 games, 5 yellow,0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.67
Iain Brines,----------- 3 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.67
Craig Charleston,----- 1 games, 0 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.00
Kevin Clancy,-------- 3 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.67
Willie Collum,--------- 7 games, 11 yellow, 1 red, 0 pen, avg 1.57
Brian Colvin,----------2 games, 4 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Bobby Madden,------- 6 games, 15 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 2.50
John McKendrick,----- 1 game, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Steve McLean,------- 6 games, 5 yellow, 1 red, 0 pens, avg 0.83
Alan Muir,------------ 2 games, 3 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg 1.50
Calum Murray,-------- 1 games, 0 yellows, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.00
Euan Norris,---------- 1 games, 3 yellows, 0 red, 0 pens, avg 3.00
Craig Thomson,------- 6 games, 8 yellow, 0 red, 2 pen, avg 1.33


Total 46 games, 71 yellow, 5 red, 7 pens for, Avg yellow per game 1.54

Be it wishful thinking or just the general irrationality of it all, I've never really bought into the whole idea of any referees in Scotland being biased/cheats. However, if accurate, these stats are very interesting indeed! Zero penalties for in 17 games, 2 penalties against in 6. As an aside, why have we had him so often anyway?

Twa Cairpets
27-01-2014, 04:48 PM
First of all, I do not want to be seen like one of those conspiracy theorists that you get a Darkheid or the PBS, but I thought that I would have a look at referee’s performance at Hibs games since the start of season 2011-12.
I broke it down to the numbers of games each were in charge, number of yellow and red cards given to Hibs players and number of penalties awarded to Hibs. I did start to look at the cards, pens etc. given to opposition players in these games to get a contrast but I was only able to find that information going back to Jan’ 2013, if anyone has the details or knows where I can find that info, please let me know. (There may have been a few more penalties which may have been saved or missed.)
In this period we have had 117 competitive games refereed by Scottish Refs, this excluded the two games that were abandoned, Motherwell and Killie. We have had 19 different refs, 4 have only been in charge for one game each. I have also worked out the average of yellow cards per game for each ref. I will let you draw your own conclusions. I list them in alphabetical order so as not to sway your thinking.

Awarded against Hibs (Pens for)
Crawford Allan,------- 6 games, 7 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg yellow cards per game 1.17
John Beaton,--------- 5 games, 12 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg 2.40
Iain Brines,----------- 7 games, 4 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.57
Craig Charleston,------3 games, 6 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Kevin Clancy,---------4 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.50
Willie Collum,-------- 14 games, 21 yellow, 1 red, 2 pen, avg 1.5
Brian Colvin,--------- 3 games, 3 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Mike Conroy,---------2 games, 2 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.00
Stephen Finnie,------3 games, 6 yellow, 1 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Bobby Madden,----- 13 games, 16 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.23
John McKendrick,---- 1 game, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Steve McLean,----- 13 games, 25 yellow, 1 red, 3 pens, avg 1.92
Alan Muir,----------- 5 games, 12 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.40
Calum Murray,------- 7 games, 10 yellows, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.43
Euan Norris,--------- 5 games, 8 yellows, 0 red, 2 pens, avg 1.60
Steve O’Reilly,------- 6 games, 16 yellow, 0 red, 2 pens, avg 2.67
Charlie Richmond,---- 1 games, 1 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.00
George Salmond,-----1 games, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Craig Thomson,----- 17 games, 46 yellow, 2 red, 0 pen, avg 2.71
B. Winter,----------- 1 games, 2 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00


Total 117 games, 181 yellow, 7 red, 14 pens for. Avg yellow per game 1.54
Crawford Allan,------- 4 games, 6 yellow, 2 red, 1 pen, avg yellow cards per game 1.50
John Beaton,--------- 3 games, 5 yellow,0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.67
Iain Brines,----------- 3 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.67
Craig Charleston,----- 1 games, 0 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.00
Kevin Clancy,-------- 3 games, 5 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 1.67
Willie Collum,--------- 7 games, 11 yellow, 1 red, 0 pen, avg 1.57
Brian Colvin,----------2 games, 4 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 2.00
Bobby Madden,------- 6 games, 15 yellow, 0 red, 1 pen, avg 2.50
John McKendrick,----- 1 game, 1 yellow, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 1.00
Steve McLean,------- 6 games, 5 yellow, 1 red, 0 pens, avg 0.83
Alan Muir,------------ 2 games, 3 yellow, 1 red, 1 pen, avg 1.50
Calum Murray,-------- 1 games, 0 yellows, 0 red, 0 pen, avg 0.00
Euan Norris,---------- 1 games, 3 yellows, 0 red, 0 pens, avg 3.00
Craig Thomson,------- 6 games, 8 yellow, 0 red, 2 pen, avg 1.33


Total 46 games, 71 yellow, 5 red, 7 pens for, Avg yellow per game 1.54

Sorry, may be being dim, but what is the second table showing?

Viva_Palmeiras
27-01-2014, 04:54 PM
Be it wishful thinking or just the general irrationality of it all, I've never really bought into the whole idea of any referees in Scotland being biased/cheats. However, if accurate, these stats are very interesting indeed! Zero penalties for in 17 games, 2 penalties against in 6. As an aside, why have we had him so often anyway?

Good question - Cup games? Which present an opportunity to do more damage?

truehibernian
27-01-2014, 04:56 PM
Backs up my claim too really, Callum Murray and Steven McLean are top whistlers - and top blokes too.

SMAXXA
27-01-2014, 04:58 PM
Get this emailed to hibs and send direct to big Tel

JimBHibees
27-01-2014, 05:05 PM
46 yellow cards in 17 games for CT says it all.

That's more than double the next closest ref, Collum who has reffed only 3 games less.

That is a quite staggering stat and very much in line with his performance yesterday in a game where there were next to no bad tackles. What did we have 4 or 5 yellows? The worst possibly Izzaguire being allowed to have 3 hacks at Zoubrir conveniently ignored.

I may be paranoid :greengrin however I think he knows exactly who is on a certain amount of yellows and knows who would be suspended.

Can remember him scandalously booking Sparky for a non-dive against Killie which miraculously ruled him out of the relegation decider v Jumbo Jims Pars a season or two back?

JimBHibees
27-01-2014, 05:06 PM
Backs up my claim too really, Callum Murray and Steven McLean are top whistlers - and top blokes too.

Why do we get them so few times in comparison to Thomson, it genuinely seems completely disproportionate.

Stantons Angel
27-01-2014, 05:13 PM
OMG!!!!!

This makes it painfully obvious that the man should never be allowed to officiate any game involving Hibs.

I too don't like to prescribe to conspiracy theories but if Hibs needed any ammunition to give to the SFA about this man then this is proof of how biased he is!

With those stats you would think of Hibs being a "dirty" team of hackers who get booked for consistent fouling or bad tackling!

Boyle89
27-01-2014, 05:14 PM
How can we have had him incharge of so many games when there is a whole bunch of other refs?! He must ask to ref us every week.
Slightly off topic but who was the ref for the killie cup game last season? Thought that was the best performance by a ref I have seen for some time (disregarding Heffs soft pen as I think the linesman gave that).

truehibernian
27-01-2014, 05:20 PM
Why do we get them so few times in comparison to Thomson, it genuinely seems completely disproportionate.

Scottish ref's Jim are a 'preservation society' and I've found nearly always round the wagons when one of their own is in the firing line - it actually makes them more determined to say 'f*** you' to the clubs moaning in my honest opinion.

John Fleming is the man to ask why the appointments seem so disproportionate - same referee twice in three games is a bit of a rarity too I would have thought - AND especially when there is already recent history between Thomson and his 'performances' v Aberdeen (Pawlett, Ivan, etc). Jeez he even got the pens wrong for both sides in the recent defeat at Todders.

The man is incompetent as a referee, and more importantly, feels the need for the camera to be focused on him. The headmastery way he spoke to Liam Craig yesterday was simply for the camera. As was his going to speak to Terry Butcher.

I remember he ref'd us at Tannadice after the cup final - the 3-0 defeat. He actually over compensated in our favour to the point it was embarrassing and really saved us from a bigger hiding (if anyone recalls) - I was laughing when he was giving us decisions which were clearly wrong, wryly smiling that no matter what he gave us that day wouldn't make up for the Leigh elbow and the 'penalty' outside the box. The fact we got him so soon after the final says to me that the SFA are putting two fingers up at Hibs for having the temerity to moan Jim :agree:

Hermit Crab
27-01-2014, 05:33 PM
Get this emailed to hibs and send direct to big Tel

This 100%

Hermit Crab
27-01-2014, 05:36 PM
How can we have had him incharge of so many games when there is a whole bunch of other refs?! He must ask to ref us every week.
Slightly off topic but who was the ref for the killie cup game last season? Thought that was the best performance by a ref I have seen for some time (disregarding Heffs soft pen as I think the linesman gave that).

If you mean the 4-2 game it was John Beaton I think

JimBHibees
27-01-2014, 05:38 PM
Scottish ref's Jim are a 'preservation society' and I've found nearly always round the wagons when one of their own is in the firing line - it actually makes them more determined to say 'f*** you' to the clubs moaning in my honest opinion.

John Fleming is the man to ask why the appointments seem so disproportionate - same referee twice in three games is a bit of a rarity too I would have thought - AND especially when there is already recent history between Thomson and his 'performances' v Aberdeen (Pawlett, Ivan, etc). Jeez he even got the pens wrong for both sides in the recent defeat at Todders.

The man is incompetent as a referee, and more importantly, feels the need for the camera to be focused on him. The headmastery way he spoke to Liam Craig yesterday was simply for the camera. As was his going to speak to Terry Butcher.

I remember he ref'd us at Tannadice after the cup final - the 3-0 defeat. He actually over compensated in our favour to the point it was embarrassing and really saved us from a bigger hiding (if anyone recalls) - I was laughing when he was giving us decisions which were clearly wrong, wryly smiling that no matter what he gave us that day wouldn't make up for the Leigh elbow and the 'penalty' outside the box. The fact we got him so soon after the final says to me that the SFA are putting two fingers up at Hibs for having the temerity to moan Jim :agree:

No doubt about that. There is one thing for sure there is no way on this earth that he would have had the nerve to speak to Scott Brown at Parkhead the way he spoke to Liam Craig yesterday personally thought it was disgusting. There would be a riot. He hates us there is no doubt IMO.

JimBHibees
27-01-2014, 05:39 PM
If you mean the 4-2 game it was John Beaton I think

Did the ref not go off in that game? Brines maybe ? Beaton came on for him I think.

Hermit Crab
27-01-2014, 05:42 PM
Did the ref not go off in that game? Brines maybe ? Beaton came on for him I think.

That's ringing bells actually.

lord bunberry
27-01-2014, 05:48 PM
Did the ref not go off in that game? Brines maybe ? Beaton came on for him I think.

I think brines came on for the injured ref.

grunt
27-01-2014, 05:51 PM
Sorry, may be being dim, but what is the second table showing?I think that the stats for our opposition in the 46 matches since January 2013.

givescotlandfreedom
27-01-2014, 05:52 PM
If you mean the 4-2 game it was John Beaton I think

The Linesman who flagged for the penalty was Andy Tait whose fiancee was telling people he was wanting a replay for extra money and he bets on games he officiates in. Also guilty of shafting his own lot during the referee strike.

tomf
27-01-2014, 05:58 PM
I think big-mo's statistics provide yet more weight to the argument that Thomson is biased against Hibs. There have been a lot of good points made on this subject and some great posts on the relevant rules in relation to yesterday's game in partcular. I think I can say that the vast majority of posters on this site are reasonable, intelligent people who understand that there are rules but that the ref has the job of not only following the rules but of interpreting them. The simple question, for me, is this...If there really is a biased ref, what provision is there in the system to ensure that he is answerable for his decsions?

IMHO I think it would be wrong to suggest, in terms of Thomson's decisions regarding Hibs, that it is all swings and roundabouts or incompetence or some perhaps kind of self fulfilling prophesy, whereby a ref gets a reputation for being biased and players subsequently get themselves booked for over protesting his decisions. It is over fifty years since I first saw Hibs play and I have honestly never felt as badly about any ref. Hibs players and the club are professional and respecful of the game and it's governing bodies (including refs)...and so are the vast majoity of Hibs fans but the balance of probability is that Thomson is less than even-handed when it comes to our games and the stats are very revealing in bearing this out. It is time Hibs took action on this issue. It has cost us games, revenue, league postions and takes credibility away from football itself. IMO Thomson is a cheat and he needs to be called out on his decisions. An honourable man would resign because he can't really continue to officiate on games where his judgement has been so badly called into question but I won't hold my breath.

NAE NOOKIE
27-01-2014, 06:17 PM
Very interesting stats:

If they prove one thing its the old adage, familiarity breeds contempt, in all my time supporting Hibs we have had some refs who's name next to a fixture was greeted with dismay. But I've never known a ref who was ( and is ) held in such utter contempt by our support.

I would never condone assaults on match officials under any circumstances, its utterly unacceptable. But if a ref was ever going to be lamped by a supporter its him. He struts about the pitch like some sort of third world despot and if you ask me actually enjoys making decisions which wind up supporters ... especially ours. I find that way he holds his cards up at the very edge of thumb and forefinger infuriating.

Its the measure of him as a ref that he chose to send Pat Fenlon to the stand during the 2012 cup final ... any ref worth his salt would have had the common sense to appreciate a managers utter frustration in these circumstances and settled for a quite word ... but not our Craig, if nothing else he has to be the centre of attention.

The question has to be asked ..... Given that the club's opinion of this referee is well known, not to mention the supporters hatred of him, why is it the case that he refs more Hibs games than any other official ..... this looks like a calculated policy by the powers that be to show us who's boss. If there is another explanation I'd like to hear it.

If its comes down to it that Hibs have a chance to relegate the Yams either at the Wongadome or ER if we miss out on the top 6 I wouldnt be in the least surprised if he gets the gig.

big-mo
27-01-2014, 06:27 PM
Some have been asking why we have had CT so often, the reason could be that he is reportedly Scotland's 'top ref', and would therefore have the most games in the top-fight, there is only six refs required for any weekend in the SPL/SPFL, he would be refing more games than anyone else. Anyway we have had him four times this season so we are only due to get him once more, it would just be our luck to get to the cup final again and find him standing in the middle waiting for us.

Anyway, if you read the stats, the average number of cards given to Hibs has been, 1.54 cards per game, also the average number of cards per game shown to Hibs opponents is also 1.54 per game, however, CT issued an average of 2.71 cards for Hibs but only 1.33 for our opposition. Given that he has had more games than anyone else, the stats are more accurate than for any other ref.
Having the same average of cards for both Hibs and their opposition proves that we are no worst than anyone else, and in fact the CT's record distorts the stats shows we are slightly cleaner.

Boyle89
27-01-2014, 06:28 PM
If you mean the 4-2 game it was John Beaton I think

I checked. 'Twas indeed Beaton.

Sunny1875
27-01-2014, 06:30 PM
I think big-mo's statistics provide yet more weight to the argument that Thomson is biased against Hibs. There have been a lot of good points made on this subject and some great posts on the relevant rules in relation to yesterday's game in partcular. I think I can say that the vast majority of posters on this site are reasonable, intelligent people who understand that there are rules but that the ref has the job of not only following the rules but of interpreting them. The simple question, for me, is this...If there really is a biased ref, what provision is there in the system to ensure that he is answerable for his decsions?

IMHO I think it would be wrong to suggest, in terms of Thomson's decisions regarding Hibs, that it is all swings and roundabouts or incompetence or some perhaps kind of self fulfilling prophesy, whereby a ref gets a reputation for being biased and players subsequently get themselves booked for over protesting his decisions. It is over fifty years since I first saw Hibs play and I have honestly never felt as badly about any ref. Hibs players and the club are professional and respecful of the game and it's governing bodies (including refs)...and so are the vast majoity of Hibs fans but the balance of probability is that Thomson is less than even-handed when it comes to our games and the stats are very revealing in bearing this out. It is time Hibs took action on this issue. It has cost us games, revenue, league postions and takes credibility away from football itself. IMO Thomson is a cheat and he needs to be called out on his decisions. An honourable man would resign because he can't really continue to officiate on games where his judgement has been so badly called into question but I won't hold my breath.
:top marks

maturehibby
27-01-2014, 06:39 PM
last season at St Mirren Craig Charlston gave a penalty against Hibs which Williams saved .
I have re-assesed my opinion on this referee and find he is now one of the least inefficient there is (could not say a referee is good) so this Refs is as good as it gets

maturehibby
27-01-2014, 06:42 PM
The Linesman who flagged for the penalty was Andy Tait whose fiancee was telling people he was wanting a replay for extra money and he bets on games he officiates in. Also guilty of shafting his own lot during the referee strike.

Absolute shocking if what you have said is true the SFA must investigate such a allegation at least to clear him or incriminate him - disgraceful if true

Hibbyradge
27-01-2014, 07:44 PM
I don't think there would be any harm sending these figures to Hibs.

I'd be inclined to send them to the SFA referee's committee too, but maybe that's Hibs' job.

Billy Whizz
27-01-2014, 07:47 PM
Some have been asking why we have had CT so often, the reason could be that he is reportedly Scotland's 'top ref', and would therefore have the most games in the top-fight, there is only six refs required for any weekend in the SPL/SPFL, he would be refing more games than anyone else. Anyway we have had him four times this season so we are only due to get him once more, it would just be our luck to get to the cup final again and find him standing in the middle waiting for us.

Anyway, if you read the stats, the average number of cards given to Hibs has been, 1.54 cards per game, also the average number of cards per game shown to Hibs opponents is also 1.54 per game, however, CT issued an average of 2.71 cards for Hibs but only 1.33 for our opposition. Given that he has had more games than anyone else, the stats are more accurate than for any other ref.
Having the same average of cards for both Hibs and their opposition proves that we are no worst than anyone else, and in fact the CT's record distorts the stats shows we are slightly cleaner.

Again good stats, have you done the same for his games when he's been the ref in a Hearts game

Kaiser1962
27-01-2014, 07:54 PM
This season Thomson has refereed 14 SPfL games and handed out 48 yellow cards. He has refereed two championship games and booked 6 players. CT has awarded two penalties this season, one on Sunday against Hibs and the other was awarded to Hearts aganst Dundee Utd when the yams lost 4-1.


Thomsons overall stats are that he has refereed 32 Hibs matches, Hibs have won 11 drawn 3 and lost 18. He has booked 73 Hibs players and sent off 4 whilst booking 44 opponents and sending off 2. CT has awarded Hibs 2 penalties whilst giving the opposition 9.

Twa Cairpets
27-01-2014, 07:55 PM
You can find stats for refs and other good info on the following: http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/craig-thomson/bilanz/schiedsrichter_149.html

The initial look does not make good reading for the "incompetent rather than biased" minded like myself, I have to admit...

Kato
27-01-2014, 08:10 PM
The initial look does not make good reading for the "incompetent rather than biased" minded like myself, I have to admit...


This is a proper thread with actual debate going on, well done that guy on being open minded. Something you don't see enough on message boards were people tend to become entrenched in their view.

Interesting stats - as I said earlier I tend to go on attitude and body language with refs and he hates us, same patterns almost every fixture. He does seem to have the odd blip in our favour but that could be down to not seeing certain things or just plain covering his back.

Not convinced he's a jambo and never have been but he has it in for for sure.

Stantons Angel
27-01-2014, 08:16 PM
This season Thomson has refereed 14 SPfL games and handed out 48 yellow cards. He has refereed two championship games and booked 6 players. CT has awarded two penalties this season, one on Sunday against Hibs and the other was awarded to Hearts aganst Dundee Utd when the yams lost 4-1.


Thomson's overall stats are that he has refereed 32 Hibs matches, Hibs have won 11 drawn 3 and lost 18. He has booked 73 Hibs players and sent off 4 whilst booking 44 opponents and sending off 2. CT has awarded Hibs 2 penalties whilst giving the opposition 9.


i am not being disrespectful to your figures at all when i say that if these figures are correct then we do really have a problem with this referee!

The media a quick to bringing up disrepute when a player does something to bring the game into disrepute, so why has no one at the SFA looked into claims that this man is hell bent on being biased to the opposition no matter who plays against Hibs?

I have no reason to doubt either sets of figures put before us. i would though like to know that if these compilations can be put together by supporters, then surely with all the technology available to them the SFA MUST have similar figures?

Therefore they have the chosen to either ignore the massive difference in bookings of Hibs players by this one particular referee or have they not looked at all?

Kaiser1962
27-01-2014, 09:36 PM
To further accentuate Thomsons stats an analysis of the figures for clubs in which he has refereed over 25 games would suggest the team with the highest likelihood of getting a player booked is Hibs (2.28 per game or 73 in 32 games)) while the club involved in games where the opposition are least likely to get booked is also Hibs (1.38pg). The side least likely to get awarded a penalty from Thomson is Hibs (0.06pg or 2 in 32) and most likely to get a penalty awarded against them is, surprise, Hibs (0.28pg or 9 in 32)

However Hibs are only second most likely to have a player sent off (0.13 or 4 in 32) which is only slightly behind Rangers (0.15 or 5 in 33). We are third least likely to have an opposition player red carded (0.06 or 2 in 32) a gnats behind 2nd least likely Aberdeen (0.06 or 2 in 31) and surprisingly Celtic (0.04 or 2 in 51). There is a higher probability of Craig Thomson sending off an opposition player against Hearts than any other team (0.26 or 10 in 38) which is double that of the next best. For balance Hearts are second most likely (behind Hibs) to have a player booked by Thomson but second least likely to have a player sent off (behind Dundee United).

For context it is also worth noting that Hearts have been fined for poor discipline on seven successive occassions.

Clubs who Thomson has refereed over 25 game are Motherwell (26); Aberdeen (31); Hibs (32); Dundee United (32); Rangers (33); Hearts (38) and Celtic (51)

Hibercelona
27-01-2014, 09:41 PM
Craig Thomson games from start of 2011/2012 season to present. (Opposition stats in brackets)

Hibs

Games = 17
Yellows = 47 (21) 68%/32%
Reds = 2 (2) 50%/50%
Penalty Awards = 0 (5) 0%/100%

Hearts

Games = 15
Yellows = 27 (36) 43%/57%
Reds = 0 (3) 0%/100%
Penalty Awards = 4 (1) 80%/20%

Simply incompetent aye? :whistle:

(I will go even further back tomorrow, to get an even bigger picture of the stat differences)

Jack Hackett
27-01-2014, 10:04 PM
So does this mean that I'm not actually paranoid and can come off the meds? :greengrin

Mr White
27-01-2014, 10:10 PM
So does this mean that I'm not actually paranoid and can come off the meds? :greengrin

Possibly, but they'll still be watching you through your television :aok:

Hibercelona
27-01-2014, 10:14 PM
So does this mean that I'm not actually paranoid and can come off the meds? :greengrin

Whenever Craig Thomson comes to town, I fear i'll overdose on the Heroin in an attempt to control the rage. Which is fine, because I still haven't sold anywhere near enough pegs to cover the lease on the caravan.

Jack Hackett
27-01-2014, 10:15 PM
Possibly, but they'll still be watching you through your television :aok:

Not a problem.....I always watch with a mask and hoodie on....just in case likes :agree:

Mr White
27-01-2014, 10:17 PM
Not a problem.....I always watch with a mask and hoodie on....just in case likes :agree:

You can't be too careful...

Jack Hackett
27-01-2014, 10:20 PM
Whenever Craig Thomson comes to town, I fear i'll overdose on the Heroin in an attempt to control the rage. Which is fine, because I still haven't sold anywhere near enough pegs to cover the lease on the caravan.

You have a lease? I just nicked mine from Seton Sands


.....The family inside at the time weren't too happy, but hey...life's a beach :wink:

Westie1875
27-01-2014, 10:21 PM
I'd be sending these stats to the press as well as Hibs and the SFA, draw as much attention to them as possible. I've always thought he hated us but these stats are staggering!

Hibercelona
27-01-2014, 10:29 PM
I'd be sending these stats to the press as well as Hibs and the SFA, draw as much attention to them as possible. I've always thought he hated us but these stats are staggering!

Nothing would come of it.

I remember the club issuing a complaint after the disaster final.

The SFA shared their acknowledgement and concerns, by presenting us with this clown for the very first game of the season. :rolleyes:

SMAXXA
27-01-2014, 10:30 PM
I'd be sending these stats to the press as well as Hibs and the SFA, draw as much attention to them as possible. I've always thought he hated us but these stats are staggering!

Good man :aok:

Westie1875
27-01-2014, 10:32 PM
Good man :aok:

I'm not saying I will, just what I think is the best way to get exposure, they're not my stats so I'll leave that up to the OP.

VivaHiberña
28-01-2014, 12:25 AM
Just goes to show that us paranoid ones were maybe on to something! :cb


Fantastic thread by the way, folk actually using solid evidence to back up their points, no arguments about whether or not he was right to give this penalty or that one etc.


Funny enough, I was going to post a similar thread myself, the idea coming to me this afternoon although I was thinking to format it slightly differently I still imagine must have taken a while to collect all the stats, top marks for effort, BM. :top marks
I might still add my own stats to this thread, though I doubt I'll bother now as I'd just be repeating what's already been said, might save it for the end of the season when we need an excuse for losing the cup final to Albion Rovers (touch wood)...

givescotlandfreedom
28-01-2014, 12:49 AM
Craig Thomson games from start of 2011/2012 season to present. (Opposition stats in brackets)

Hibs

Games = 17
Yellows = 47 (21) 68%/32%
Reds = 2 (2) 50%/50%
Penalty Awards = 0 (5) 0%/100%

Hearts

Games = 15
Yellows = 27 (36) 43%/57%
Reds = 0 (3) 0%/100%
Penalty Awards = 4 (1) 80%/20%

Simply incompetent aye? :whistle:

(I will go even further back tomorrow, to get an even bigger picture of the stat differences)

That's interesting when Hearts are always being fined for their lack of discipline at the end of the season.

Sunny1875
28-01-2014, 01:14 AM
One of the other thing's these stats don't show is what
time in a game booking's are given, booking a defensive player or midfielder after 10 mins has a bigger sway on the outcome than a booking after say 87 mins

Hibercelona
28-01-2014, 01:51 AM
One of the other thing's these stats don't show is what
time in a game booking's are given, booking a defensive player or midfielder after 10 mins has a bigger sway on the outcome than a booking after say 87 mins

28/08/11 - Hearts 2-0 Hibs (Sproule booked in the first 10 minutes)
18/03/12 Hearts 2-0 Hibs (Soares booked in the first 10 minutes)
22/04/12 Hibs 0-1 Killie (Griffiths booked in the first 10 minutes)

Picking up a booking at any point in the game can have a sway on the next game, if the player picks up a suspension.

VivaHiberña
28-01-2014, 02:35 AM
28/11/12 - St Johnstone 0-1 Hibernian: Hanlon and McGivern (who were both playing centre-half) both booked for unsporting behaviour in first half. At it.

Moulin Yarns
28-01-2014, 08:57 AM
Interesting reading, but, to have any worth in putting it to the SFA there would need to be a fuller analysis of Craig THomson's record with every Premier league team. If it is then clear that he punishes Hibs more, regardless of opposition then it would have more clout. IMHO

Mikeystewart
28-01-2014, 11:07 AM
This might not be a popular opinion but after watching highlights I feel the only things Thomson got wrong was the Yellow card for Nelson and the non-penalty for Collins. For all the moaning about Thomson the games where he gives us decisions tend to get swept under the carpet. All of the goals yesterday where preventable if we had better cover at the back. People won't moan at the team falling asleep 4 times in the game so instead will moan at Thomson.

Twa Cairpets
28-01-2014, 12:13 PM
Interesting reading, but, to have any worth in putting it to the SFA there would need to be a fuller analysis of Craig THomson's record with every Premier league team. If it is then clear that he punishes Hibs more, regardless of opposition then it would have more clout. IMHO

This is correct. If I ever get the time then I'll maybe try to have a look. At a very rough quick look we do get on average a yellow card more a game, which I think is statistically significant.

It is vital to understand the context of the games in which decisions are given though. A cursory scan suggests that weve had him in a disproportionate number of times against Celtic, Hearts and Aberdeen. Are these games where you'd expect more disciplinary activity? Dunno.

The figures do suggest a bias against Hibs, and for Hearts for yellow cards anyway. I think that is from a prima facie perspective fairly indisputable. The red card and penalty data is too small a data set to draw any conclusions from. I don't however think he's an active cheat - I keep coming back to the Aberdeen/Nelson handball. He had no need to cheat to award that - no-one I think would have complained that much with had that been awarded, but he didn't give it. If he is actively out to get us why would he wait on the opportunity to do something questionable rather than give something of a stonewaller? Doesnt make sense to me.

What I do have to conclude, however (at least until there is more evidence), is that there is something in his make-up that sways him to flash a card more readily for us than the opponents. It would be interesting to see fouls awarded for/against to see if it is significantly different also.

Biggie
28-01-2014, 01:04 PM
Again good stats, have you done the same for his games when he's been the ref in a Hearts game

now that would be interesting !

khib70
28-01-2014, 01:15 PM
This might not be a popular opinion but after watching highlights I feel the only things Thomson got wrong was the Yellow card for Nelson and the non-penalty for Collins. For all the moaning about Thomson the games where he gives us decisions tend to get swept under the carpet. All of the goals yesterday where preventable if we had better cover at the back. People won't moan at the team falling asleep 4 times in the game so instead will moan at Thomson.
:agree:Won't be popular either, but I agree with you. This board is beginning to read like a Celtc forum. Every time Thomson is appointed to ref us, there's a thread about it, plus one afterwards bemoaning his anti-Hibs agenda. I can well remember the Smellies sending out private detectives to investigate referees, and rumbling on about Masonic conspiracies.

I don't, by the way, think much of Thomson's refereeing ability,and even less of his Billy Big Baws demeanour, but all this consipracy stuff is just boring IMO. Like a guy who is so Hertz daft he'll sacrifice his professional integrity is going to help Celtc win a game against anyone? It's easy to make stats support any argument - there are all sorts of factors which can affect the numbers.

Actually turning up for a cup final for once, or our defence not marking each other, are more likely to have a positive effect on our result than any choice of referee.

Seveno
28-01-2014, 01:21 PM
To quote Robert Burns : 'Facts are chiels that winna ding'.

Kato
28-01-2014, 02:02 PM
It's easy to make stats support any argument -


Let's see some then.

Onion
28-01-2014, 02:14 PM
Scottish ref's Jim are a 'preservation society' and I've found nearly always round the wagons when one of their own is in the firing line - it actually makes them more determined to say 'f*** you' to the clubs moaning in my honest opinion.

John Fleming is the man to ask why the appointments seem so disproportionate - same referee twice in three games is a bit of a rarity too I would have thought - AND especially when there is already recent history between Thomson and his 'performances' v Aberdeen (Pawlett, Ivan, etc). Jeez he even got the pens wrong for both sides in the recent defeat at Todders.

The man is incompetent as a referee, and more importantly, feels the need for the camera to be focused on him. The headmastery way he spoke to Liam Craig yesterday was simply for the camera. As was his going to speak to Terry Butcher.

I remember he ref'd us at Tannadice after the cup final - the 3-0 defeat. He actually over compensated in our favour to the point it was embarrassing and really saved us from a bigger hiding (if anyone recalls) - I was laughing when he was giving us decisions which were clearly wrong, wryly smiling that no matter what he gave us that day wouldn't make up for the Leigh elbow and the 'penalty' outside the box. The fact we got him so soon after the final says to me that the SFA are putting two fingers up at Hibs for having the temerity to moan Jim :agree:

This all explains why there is only one group who can stop this clown - the Hibs fans. Give CT special treatment and he, the media, beaks and club will get the message. Anything that throws a spotlight on his decisions is the way forward.

Onion
28-01-2014, 02:20 PM
:agree:Won't be popular either, but I agree with you. This board is beginning to read like a Celtc forum. Every time Thomson is appointed to ref us, there's a thread about it, plus one afterwards bemoaning his anti-Hibs agenda. I can well remember the Smellies sending out private detectives to investigate referees, and rumbling on about Masonic conspiracies.

I don't, by the way, think much of Thomson's refereeing ability,and even less of his Billy Big Baws demeanour, but all this consipracy stuff is just boring IMO. Like a guy who is so Hertz daft he'll sacrifice his professional integrity is going to help Celtc win a game against anyone? It's easy to make stats support any argument - there are all sorts of factors which can affect the numbers.

Actually turning up for a cup final for once, or our defence not marking each other, are more likely to have a positive effect on our result than any choice of referee.

Hardly. Thompson has been the main (almost sole) focus of Hibs fans attention for years and the stats just published support those concerns. This is not like the latest Hibs scapegoat which just moves around week to week. Thomson is The issue. Once he goes, the main concern goes with him.

tomf
28-01-2014, 02:26 PM
:agree:Won't be popular either, but I agree with you. This board is beginning to read like a Celtc forum. Every time Thomson is appointed to ref us, there's a thread about it, plus one afterwards bemoaning his anti-Hibs agenda. I can well remember the Smellies sending out private detectives to investigate referees, and rumbling on about Masonic conspiracies.

I don't, by the way, think much of Thomson's refereeing ability,and even less of his Billy Big Baws demeanour, but all this consipracy stuff is just boring IMO. Like a guy who is so Hertz daft he'll sacrifice his professional integrity is going to help Celtc win a game against anyone? It's easy to make stats support any argument - there are all sorts of factors which can affect the numbers.

Actually turning up for a cup final for once, or our defence not marking each other, are more likely to have a positive effect on our result than any choice of referee.

Whilst I am happy for you both to have your opinion I would just ask you to consider the possibility that a ref could be biased. What is there in the system to monitor this, prove it and deal with it? If not statistics then what? We all have opinions and I would argue that, for instance, a player involved in match fixing would be unlikely to appear to be less than committed in any given match in order to escape scrutiny but the overall stats (including stats such as betting patterns for instance) might provide a different picture. I am not accusing Thomson of any betting /match fixing conspiracy by the way; I am just pointing out that there are systems in place to prove such things.

I think that earlier posts regarding the timing of events such as bookings is very relevant; no-one needs reminded of the consequences of the first two fouls committed in the early stages of that final and the timing of the penalty decison and subsequent sending off in that same match. Once the damage is done he can be as fair as he likes. I don't dispute that Hibs would have lost that final regardless and I could have lived with a 1-2 on Sunday but the eventual scoreines reflect the referee more than the opposition.

Apologies to everyone for the length of this posting but one final point. In an earlier post I suggested the possibility that Hibs players could argue his decsions more than other refs because they are aware of his reputation and we would therefore recieve more bookings but my wife has pointed out that the counter to that would be that opposing team players are also aware and could obviously use that to their advantage. The statstics are the best proof as to whether Thomson is biased or not. Our opinions don't really matter but it does appear that the majority of posters on this topic can feel vindicated.

PatHead
28-01-2014, 04:35 PM
Don't know how you would get the stats but is there any way that retrospective red cards are awarded or Red Cards overturned could be calculated for his games?

Saorsa
28-01-2014, 04:55 PM
Let's see some then.Nowt yet then. :I'm waiti

Kato
28-01-2014, 05:08 PM
Nowt yet then. :I'm waiti

:wink:

tomf
29-01-2014, 12:19 AM
I appreciate that this thread may have run its course but I noted an old article concerning Craig Thomson at http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/390945/Spaniards-irate-at-Scottish-ref-Craig-Thomson

and thought it interesting. I imagine that nothing came of this but doesn't it raise questions about his ability to be impartial in any game? If not, it must raise questions about his competency. Is no-one at the top of Scottish football listening? The complaints aren't all from Hibs fans...or must everything be sacrificed to ensure Hearts and their pet referee survive to win / cheat again?

Going by the principal that we are all no more than six times removed; I could ask you to pass this on to everyone you know and it will inevitably reach Craig...Please resign now before you do any more damage to the credibility of Scottish football. If he got the request from his cousin / pal / colleague / partner he might just take note. Tiny Wharton will be spinning in his grave.

Nailrod
29-01-2014, 02:18 AM
I appreciate that this thread may have run its course...Ahem. This thread won't have "run its course" until khib70 produces a set of stats that show that Thomson actually favours Hibs over other teams. Which he should do fairly soon and without too much trouble since, in the words of the man himself:

It's easy to make stats support any argument...
:wink:

Moulin Yarns
29-01-2014, 06:50 AM
Ahem. This thread won't have "run its course" until khib70 produces a set of stats that show that Thomson actually favours Hibs over other teams. Which he should do fairly soon and without too much trouble since, in the words of the man himself:

:wink:

Hexham Hibee emailed me an excel spreadsheet that comes from Transfer Markt, a German site so can only presume they are right. Once I've digested I'll try and summarise.

If anybody wants a look, try this http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/default/startseite/schiedsrichter.html

Nailrod
29-01-2014, 07:28 AM
Frankly, this thread shouldn't have 'run its course' until the issue has been properly examined. I've never been a great one for 'conspiracy theories' - always preferred to leave that form or paranoia to the bigot brothers - but to anybody who know anything about statistics, the discrepancies in Thomson's figures are disturbing. If you plot the OP's stats for Hibs games alone on a graph - mapping either total yellow cards or ratio of yellow cards against number of matches reffed - the visual impact is shocking.

Clearly, if you analyse all refs and their figures for all clubs, then by a simple matter of logic one ref is going to come out as the 'harshest' ref, and one particular club is going to be the 'victim'. But at that extreme of analysis, the margin of discrepancy should be minimal. In Thomson's case his figures are miles out of synch with the figures of other refs in Hibs matches, and this in a context that he has in fact reffed a high number of matches, so his figures should actually be reverting towards the mean.

Later edit. Let's put it as bluntly as this. If there was any suspicion that Thomson had been betting on Hibs games, then the stats alone would probably be enough to condemn him.

Hibercelona
29-01-2014, 08:01 AM
Statistically, Thomson is more than twice as likely to book a Hibs player than an opposition player. Statistically, Thompson is 30% likely to award the opposition a penalty during a match against Hibs and 0% likely to award Hibs with one.

He's also more than 25% likely to award Hearts with a penalty when officiating one of their games. 20% likely to send an opposition player off and 0% likely to send a Hearts player off.

These statistics are based on the last 17 games that he has taken charge of involving Hibs, which covers the current season and the 2 seasons prior to it and the 15 games that he has been in charge of involving Hearts during the same time period.

These statistics haven't be scewed in anyway, it's exactly what the statistics will tell you for that time period.

Admittedly, if you go further back than the 2 seasons prior, things are fairly level.

It seems that since Thomson has built up the reputation as "Scotlands best referee". He views this as an opportunity to get away with whatever he wants.

Kaiser1962
29-01-2014, 08:37 AM
I am currently looking at Brines, Collum and Murray, and Thomsons booking rate for Hibs players is still the highest overall at 2.28 per game. Collum is most likely to book a Hearts player (2.27 pg), with Brines also most likely to book a Hearts player (2.16 pg).

Bokings for Hibs players are Thomson at 2.28 pg; Collum 1.67pg; Brines 1.67pg and Murray 2.07. Murray has only refereed 14 Hibs games.

Bookings for Hearts players are Thomson 1.87; Collum 2.27; Brines 2.16 and Murray 1.57.

I think these guys get the more high profile encounters.

truehibernian
29-01-2014, 08:44 AM
I am currently looking at Brines, Collum and Murray, and Thomsons booking rate for Hibs players is still the highest overall at 2.28 per game. Collum is most likely to book a Hearts player (2.27 pg), with Brines also most likely to book a Hearts player (2.16 pg).

Bokings for Hibs players are Thomson at 2.28 pg; Collum 1.67pg; Brines 1.67pg and Murray 2.07. Murray has only refereed 14 Hibs games.

Bookings for Hearts players are Thomson 1.87; Collum 2.27; Brines 2.16 and Murray 1.57.

I think these guys get the more high profile encounters.

What is Steven McLean's stats mate ?

Steven is the best referee in Scotland in my eyes - played the game, his brother is a pro, he reads the game well, talks to players and officials the right way and lets the game flow - really nice guy too. Always found Mike Tumilty to be a really good bloke and really fair minded when talking about the game.

Callum Murray should be getting more top games too - another who has a nice manner, tries his best to let the game flow and isn't card happy.

Nailrod
29-01-2014, 09:26 AM
I've checked out Thomson's full stats on the website listed by Golden Fleece. Taking all his games involving all the current SPL plus the old Rangers.

On average, Thomson awards 1.70 yellows per game (excludes Hibs, includes double-yellows)
On average, Thomson gives Hibs 2.41 yellows per game
He gives Hibs 42% more yellows than his average

On average, Thomson awards 1.90 yellows against the opposition per game
On average, Thomson awards 1.38 yellows against Hibs opposition per game
He gives Hibs opposition 38% fewer yellows than average

In Hibs games, he gives Hibs 75% more yellow cards than the opposition.
After Hibs, the next worst 'sufferers' are Killie. In Killie games Thomson gives Killie 27% more cards than the opposition.
In Hearts games, Thomson gives the opposition 24% more yellow cards than Hearts.

On average, Thomson awards 0.13 pens per game to all other teams, and 0.06 per game to Hibs
(i.e. he is half as likely to award Hibs a penalty as any other team)

On average, in Thomson awards 0.10 penalties against other teams and 0.28 against Hibs
(i.e. he is three times more likely to give a penalty against Hibs than any other team.

If I plot any of these numbers on a graph, there will be a fairly steady linear progression, with Hibs as a complete outrider on every single one

:hmmm:

matty_f
29-01-2014, 09:36 AM
I've checked out Thomson's full stats on the website listed by Golden Fleece. Taking all his games involving all the current SPL plus the old Rangers.

On average, Thomson awards 1.70 yellows per game (excludes Hibs, includes double-yellows)
On average, Thomson gives Hibs 2.41 yellows per game
He gives Hibs 42% more yellows than his average

On average, Thomson awards 1.90 yellows against the opposition per game
On average, Thomson awards 1.38 yellows against Hibs opposition per game
He gives Hibs opposition 38% fewer yellows than average

In Hibs games, he gives Hibs 75% more yellow cards than the opposition.
After Hibs, the next worst 'sufferers' are Killie. In Killie games Thomson gives Killie 27% more cards than the opposition.
In Hearts games, Thomson gives the opposition 24% more yellow cards than Hearts.

On average, Thomson awards 0.13 pens per game to all other teams, and 0.06 per game to Hibs
(i.e. he is half as likely to award Hibs a penalty as any other team)

On average, in Thomson awards 0.10 penalties against other teams and 0.28 against Hibs
(i.e. he is three times more likely to give a penalty against Hibs than any other team.

If I plot any of these numbers on a graph, there will be a fairly steady linear progression, with Hibs as a complete outrider on every single one

:hmmm:

I think there's a very clear pattern here, and if it was purely coincidence we'd maybe come up as the most "hard done by" in one, maybe two, of the categories, but I can't see an argument to explain these stats stronger than that which states be is biased against us. That's before you put in the observational arguments, anecdotal evidence of major, game changing decisions almost relentlessly going against us. Even the argument that Aberdeen should have had a penalty against us (which they should) is diminished when you consider we should have had a penalty and potentially their keeper sent off much earlier in the game.

He's a cheat, pure and simple.

Saorsa
29-01-2014, 09:36 AM
:wink:It would seem those stats are pretty illusive. :agree:

Kojock
29-01-2014, 09:36 AM
I don't need stats to prove anything. I have seen time and time again that he is a cheating *******.

Nailrod
29-01-2014, 09:50 AM
I don't need stats to prove anything. I have seen time and time again that he is a cheating *******.The difference being that these stats are so overwhelming that if Thomson was being investigated for illegal betting, the cops would reckon they had an open-and-shut case.

Saorsa
29-01-2014, 09:55 AM
I think there's a very clear pattern here, and if it was purely coincidence we'd maybe come up as the most "hard done by" in one, maybe two, of the categories, but I can't see an argument to explain these stats stronger than that which states be is biased against us. That's before you put in the observational arguments, anecdotal evidence of major, game changing decisions almost relentlessly going against us. Even the argument that Aberdeen should have had a penalty against us (which they should) is diminished when you consider we should have had a penalty and potentially their keeper sent off much earlier in the game.

He's a cheat, pure and simple.:agree: His stats against us are a disgrace, yet there are still those who claim it's nowt mair than incompetence on his part. It's purely a coincidence that his 'incompetence' always favours the teams against us. It's unbelievable tae me that anybody can come tae any other conclusion than he's at it. As you say, he's a cheat, pure and simple.

Onion
29-01-2014, 10:14 AM
I've checked out Thomson's full stats on the website listed by Golden Fleece. Taking all his games involving all the current SPL plus the old Rangers.

On average, Thomson awards 1.70 yellows per game (excludes Hibs, includes double-yellows)
On average, Thomson gives Hibs 2.41 yellows per game
He gives Hibs 42% more yellows than his average

On average, Thomson awards 1.90 yellows against the opposition per game
On average, Thomson awards 1.38 yellows against Hibs opposition per game
He gives Hibs opposition 38% fewer yellows than average

In Hibs games, he gives Hibs 75% more yellow cards than the opposition.
After Hibs, the next worst 'sufferers' are Killie. In Killie games Thomson gives Killie 27% more cards than the opposition.
In Hearts games, Thomson gives the opposition 24% more yellow cards than Hearts.

On average, Thomson awards 0.13 pens per game to all other teams, and 0.06 per game to Hibs
(i.e. he is half as likely to award Hibs a penalty as any other team)

On average, in Thomson awards 0.10 penalties against other teams and 0.28 against Hibs
(i.e. he is three times more likely to give a penalty against Hibs than any other team.

If I plot any of these numbers on a graph, there will be a fairly steady linear progression, with Hibs as a complete outrider on every single one

:hmmm:

These stats back up everything that Hibs fans have been saying about Thomson over the last 3 years and should be fired off to the press to see what they make of them. Would be interesting to know if these are the most extreme stats by any ref on any club !! If that was the case, then it would be damning evidence of Thomson's bias and something he should be grilled about at Hampden. The problem is they are also embarrassing to the SFA who should be monitoring these stats - like doping.

Does the SFA, Hibs or Thomson monitor these statistics ? They are incredibly revealing esp when combined with the anecdotal evidence we all see when this guy takes charge of a Hibs game. Incompetence cannot explain them away.

Kato
29-01-2014, 11:05 AM
I don't need stats to prove anything. I have seen time and time again that he is a cheating *******.

Same here. The statistics are backing up what we have seen over the years though.


It would seem those stats are pretty illusive. :agree:

I can see what the guy is saying, stats can be skewed and weighted to show a certain result. However that's usually done when presenting sweeping generalised stats, with huge numbers involved.

In this case the stats are very specific, aimed to cover a narrow range of important aspects and seem to be revealing that CT is indeed a cheating bar-steward of the highest order.


Still think a few people are getting side-tracked into the "he's a jambo" thing. There is no proof he's a jambo and I've never thought he was. He just doesn't like us and displays that dislike time and again.

Smartie
29-01-2014, 11:25 AM
Remember this one?

http://youtu.be/2tvewlR39Mc

I kind of get off on the idea that there may be a psychotic, furious Bosnian out there willing to tear his limbs off.

I don't think a "top" referee can put in as many horrific performance as he has without questions being asked as to his impartiality.

I used to reckon he was just a honking ref, but we've seen it too often now. And it's not just in games involving us. And it's not purely against us - remember Skacel's "goal" for Utd last season was disallowed (although that was a tough one to call).

I reckon he does what he does in our games because he hates us - not necessarily because he's a Jambo but for whatever reason that's what he does. I don't know if the big European games are sheer incompetence or corruption but there's something not right about him.

And FWIW I hate the pointless and endless moaning about referees in general. I think that things do actually "even themselves out". What's the point in watching it if you don't believe that? Managers on a Saturday night spend way too much time moaning about referees "costing them" with single decisions when team-selection etc and poor decisions by players have way larger bearings on outcomes. I don't think that we're hard done by by referees in general although it may seem a bit like we're down on our luck at the moment. The "Freeland" game and there was one a few weeks ago that spring to mind as poor but in general I think we do ok.

There's something not right about Thomson though.

JimBHibees
29-01-2014, 11:40 AM
Same here. The statistics are backing up what we have seen over the years though.



I can see what the guy is saying, stats can be skewed and weighted to show a certain result. However that's usually done when presenting sweeping generalised stats, with huge numbers involved.

In this case the stats are very specific, aimed to cover a narrow range of important aspects and seem to be revealing that CT is indeed a cheating bar-steward of the highest order.


Still think a few people are getting side-tracked into the "he's a jambo" thing. There is no proof he's a jambo and I've never thought he was. He just doesn't like us and displays that dislike time and again.

Agree with that personally dont care if he is a jambo or not though he didnt look like he was trying to get out of that photo with the school kids. :greengrin

As you say to me he has been doing us over for years and these stats completely back that up.

Onion
29-01-2014, 12:18 PM
Agree with that personally dont care if he is a jambo or not though he didnt look like he was trying to get out of that photo with the school kids. :greengrin

As you say to me he has been doing us over for years and these stats completely back that up.

Someone should combine that photo with a summary of his Hibs stats and post it off to the SFA.

Let's face it, nothing is going to change with this chump, it is up to the Hibs fans to take charge of the situation and make it impossible or intolerable for him to ref any more Hibs games in future. We are the only one's who can stop him doing more damage.

ehf
29-01-2014, 01:54 PM
Remember this one?

http://youtu.be/2tvewlR39Mc

I kind of get off on the idea that there may be a psychotic, furious Bosnian out there willing to tear his limbs off.

I don't think a "top" referee can put in as many horrific performance as he has without questions being asked as to his impartiality.

I used to reckon he was just a honking ref, but we've seen it too often now. And it's not just in games involving us. And it's not purely against us - remember Skacel's "goal" for Utd last season was disallowed (although that was a tough one to call).

I reckon he does what he does in our games because he hates us - not necessarily because he's a Jambo but for whatever reason that's what he does. I don't know if the big European games are sheer incompetence or corruption but there's something not right about him.

And FWIW I hate the pointless and endless moaning about referees in general. I think that things do actually "even themselves out". What's the point in watching it if you don't believe that? Managers on a Saturday night spend way too much time moaning about referees "costing them" with single decisions when team-selection etc and poor decisions by players have way larger bearings on outcomes. I don't think that we're hard done by by referees in general although it may seem a bit like we're down on our luck at the moment. The "Freeland" game and there was one a few weeks ago that spring to mind as poor but in general I think we do ok.

There's something not right about Thomson though.

Correct; he just can't help himself. You can see from his body language that he is just itching for the chance to give decisions against us.

I've seen a few dodgy refs in my time (going back to Bobby Davidson in the 70s) but never anything like this muppet. Utterly detestable and astonishing than he gets away with it time and again.

Kato
29-01-2014, 02:34 PM
(going back to Bobby Davidson in the 70s)

A total walloper.

Back then I reckon the OF "won" dodgy decisions as refs were just plain scared of the repercussions. The press used to refer to Rangers' "charisma" winning them penalties back in the 50's.

CT has a whole different attitude though.

Nailrod
29-01-2014, 05:04 PM
Just to keep the paranoia pot boiling, in the 6 derby games that Thomson has reffed:

He has given 20 yellow cards to Hibs and 11 to Hearts (That's an average of 3.22 to Hibs)
He has given 1 double yellow to Hibs and none to Hearts (Oops. The average just became 3.66 yellows to Hibs)
He has given 1 straight red to Hibs and none to Hearts
He has given no penalties to Hibs and 1 to Hearts

He has never given more cards to Hearts in any of the games he has reffed...

tomf
30-01-2014, 09:05 PM
Being retired, I have some time on my hands and I decided to collate a lot of the statistics and comments that people have posted on this thread. I am considering turning it into a document which I could send to the footballing authorities or the media or both if anyone thought it would be useful. I am careful to note that there may be a big difference beween what can be said on a thread and what can be printed in a newspaper for mass consumption, especially in the case of a person's integrity and professional reputation. Basically, I can't afford to get sued; but neither do I think the statistics can be ignored. In the document I would like to quote other posters comments and the statistics (and their sources) so I imagine I would requre your permission. I guess that I may even have to identify people. I wouldn't want to take credit for other people's endeavour nor would I wish to mis-represent anyone although I would also need to edit comments in order to make it as coherent as possible and to provide clarity.

I imagine that all the contributors would need to be happy with the document and any actions. If required, I can provide a draft document, which I have already completed, and would welcome any thoughts, advice or guidance on the content or what, if anything, we might do with it...or is this just a really daft idea?

I am genuinely unsure about how to proceed and I can completely understand why any club would be reluctant to make a formal complaint against a match official but if this situation goes on I can't see Craig Thomson changing his ways...or his profession. You just need to consider that he could be invoved in appointing and training the next generaion of referees.

NAE NOOKIE
31-01-2014, 08:13 PM
On the paranoia side of things I dont think thats a charge which can be levelled at us as a support in general. I have never heard any Hibby say all refs are out to get us ..... just this particular one.

Paranoia or not the stats are building up against this guy. With that as a background it is significant that he chose the biggest game possible to make his biggest 'mistakes'

I have never watched any highlights or replay in full of the 2012 cup final, for obvious reasons, but I must admit I am quite curious to give it a go now with as open a mind as possible to see if his performance is as bad as I remember it.

matty_f
01-02-2014, 02:36 PM
On the paranoia side of things I dont think thats a charge which can be levelled at us as a support in general. I have never heard any Hibby say all refs are out to get us ..... just this particular one.

Paranoia or not the stats are building up against this guy. With that as a background it is significant that he chose the biggest game possible to make his biggest 'mistakes'

I have never watched any highlights or replay in full of the 2012 cup final, for obvious reasons, but I must admit I am quite curious to give it a go now with as open a mind as possible to see if his performance is as bad as I remember it.

Have any of the statisticians posting up their analysis (and very welcome it is, too, by the way) done the same for other referees and clubs?

I'm curious if we are unique in being the only club to be on the wrong end of one referee, or if the stats show, for example, that Bobby Madden hates Dundee United and has them as the least/most likely to... in every category?

My gut feeling is that the trend you see with Thomson v Hibs would not be replicated in analysis of any other club v any other referee. That, IMHO, adds further weight to the argument that Thomson cheats us. Conversely, if there are other clubs that stick out like a sore thumb with a referee then maybe it's not that much of an anomaly and it might earn Thomson a little credibility back.

tomf
06-02-2014, 04:53 PM
I've checked out Thomson's full stats on the website listed by Golden Fleece. Taking all his games involving all the current SPL plus the old Rangers.

On average, Thomson awards 1.70 yellows per game (excludes Hibs, includes double-yellows)
On average, Thomson gives Hibs 2.41 yellows per game
He gives Hibs 42% more yellows than his average

On average, Thomson awards 1.90 yellows against the opposition per game
On average, Thomson awards 1.38 yellows against Hibs opposition per game
He gives Hibs opposition 38% fewer yellows than average

In Hibs games, he gives Hibs 75% more yellow cards than the opposition.
After Hibs, the next worst 'sufferers' are Killie. In Killie games Thomson gives Killie 27% more cards than the opposition.
In Hearts games, Thomson gives the opposition 24% more yellow cards than Hearts.

On average, Thomson awards 0.13 pens per game to all other teams, and 0.06 per game to Hibs
(i.e. he is half as likely to award Hibs a penalty as any other team)

On average, in Thomson awards 0.10 penalties against other teams and 0.28 against Hibs
(i.e. he is three times more likely to give a penalty against Hibs than any other team.

If I plot any of these numbers on a graph, there will be a fairly steady linear progression, with Hibs as a complete outrider on every single one

:hmmm:

I am compiling a document in order to take this matter further and I would like to include the statistics above but I am confused by the following "On average, Thomson awards 1.90 yellows against the opposition per game / On average, Thomson awards 1.38 yellows against Hibs opposition per game / He gives Hibs opposition 38% fewer yellows than average"

Who are "the opposition" in the first line? Is it Hearts opposition or am I reading this all wrong? The second line is clear but the conclusion doesn't make sense if the opposition aren't being idenified in the first line to put the statistics in context.

Can you clarify this point please? I would really apprecie it.

Jack Hackett
06-02-2014, 06:59 PM
I am compiling a document in order to take this matter further and I would like to include the statistics above but I am confused by the following "On average, Thomson awards 1.90 yellows against the opposition per game / On average, Thomson awards 1.38 yellows against Hibs opposition per game / He gives Hibs opposition 38% fewer yellows than average"

Who are "the opposition" in the first line? Is it Hearts opposition or am I reading this all wrong? The second line is clear but the conclusion doesn't make sense if the opposition aren't being idenified in the first line to put the statistics in context.

Can you clarify this point please? I would really apprecie it.

As usual, once people have had a wee moan up, this subject fades into the background.....until he screws us again. I applaud your efforts to compile what will hopefully be a succinct and damning indictment of the biased behaviour towards our club...and based on the figures given by those who have taken the time to research, the evidence will be undeniable. We need to make our concerns heard, and loudly enough that the media take notice and broadcast it to a wider audience.

tomf
06-02-2014, 08:15 PM
As usual, once people have had a wee moan up, this subject fades into the background.....until he screws us again. I applaud your efforts to compile what will hopefully be a succinct and damning indictment of the biased behaviour towards our club...and based on the figures given by those who have taken the time to research, the evidence will be undeniable. We need to make our concerns heard, and loudly enough that the media take notice and broadcast it to a wider audience.

The document is coming along. I have been trying to double check all of the stats and, as far as I can tell, they are accurate. Apart from my question mark over the statistic I highlighted in an earlier post, which I hope will be clarified by Nailrod. Once I get that iforation it should be ready soon afterwards. Thanks to all the contributing posters and Hexham Hibee for his recent guidance.