Butcher's tenure two months in

[The Sea-gull]

What we all thinking so far? There have been some encouraging performances/results but also signs that we are still well short in terms of a squad we can rely on consistently. He's done ok with the tools at his disposal but it has proven that he is not a miricle worker and it will take more than just a change in manager to get us where we want to be week in week out.

There has been a lot of talk that Fenlon left us with a good squad. My own take is that he left us with a few decent players and in a much better state than CC and perhaps even Yogi, Mixu and Collins did but he left an unbalanced squad that is a little short on cover at the back and clearly lacks pace, creativity and in turn goals.

Since Butcher came in I would say the performances and results against St Mirren (both games), Partick, St Johnstone and Aberdeen were Fenlon-esq and the key thing that maybe means Butcher escapes the criticism Fenlon got for these sort of games is that he has not assessembled this squad.

I am encouraged by the results/performances v Ross County away (twice), Kilmarnock and Hearts (we should not get too carried away about beating this Hearts team but Fenlon never managed it - twice). I don't know too much about how we faired with Celtic and Dundee United as I never saw either game and haven't spoken to anyone who did.

I still believe that, given where we were and who we had in the squad on his appointment, it would be an achievement of sorts for TB to get us top 6 and he should not get too much flack if we don't I really want to see him mould us in a similar vein to what McInnes has done at Aberdeen by this time next year. I am confident that, with the support of the fans and the board, he can do it and Aberdeen are proof that you can come from where we are now to there in a short space of time if the right manager is in place and he makes the right signings.

[nribs]

What we all thinking so far? There have been some encouraging performances/results but also signs that we are still well short in terms of a squad we can rely on consistently. He's done ok with the tools at his disposal but it has proven that he is not a miricle worker and it will take more than just a change in manager to get us where we want to be week in week out.

There has been a lot of talk that Fenlon left us with a good squad. My own take is that he left us with a few decent players and in a much better state than CC and perhaps even Yogi, Mixu and Collins did but he left an unbalanced squad that is a little short on cover at the back and clearly lacks pace, creativity and in turn goals.

Since Butcher came in I would say the performances and results against St Mirren (both games), Partick, St Johnstone and Aberdeen were Fenlon-esq and the key thing that maybe means Butcher escapes the criticism Fenlon got for these sort of games is that he has not assessembled this squad.

I am encouraged by the results/performances v Ross County away (twice), Kilmarnock and Hearts (we should not get too carried away about beating this Hearts team but Fenlon never managed it - twice). I don't know too much about how we faired we Celtic and Dundee United as I never saw either game and haven't spoken to anyone who did.

I still belive that, given where we were and who we had in the squad on his appointment, it would be an achievement of sorts for TB to get us top 6 and he should not get too much flack if we don't I really want to see him mould us in a similar vein to what McInnes has done at Aberdeen by this time next year. I am confident that, with the support of the fans and the board, he can do it and Aberdeen are proof that you can come from where we are now to there in a short space of time if the right manager is in place and he makes the right signings. mixed bag some great results and results some not so good. TB I'm sure is aware the team isn't good enough and I have never been more confident in a manager to give us a winning team.

[jacomo]

Butcher and his team have raised expectation levels again... this is a good thing.

Performances are inconsistent but we are at least scoring goals (more often than not) and work rate and confidence seem higher. We're profiting more from set pieces and scrapping more for second balls. I remain unconvinced about our style of play but we've gone from one-paced with no threat to quicker-paced with some threat. This seems like a step forward.

I have always believed that we do have a squad capable of reaching the top six (it is unbalanced but, injuries permitting, there's a decent first 11 in there) but the players have under performed.

There is clearly some dissent within the ranks (I'm thinking of Caldwell and Katie here) which is not good, yet it's clear that Hibs need a proper shake-up as we've been under-performing for years.

Overall I feel more confident about Hibs than I have done for a while. There will be ups and downs but we seem set on the right course.

[Paloschi]

What we all thinking so far? There have been some encouraging performances/results but also signs that we are still well short in terms of a squad we can rely on consistently. He's done ok with the tools at his disposal but it has proven that he is not a miricle worker and it will take more than just a change in manager to get us where we want to be week in week out.

There has been a lot of talk that Fenlon left us with a good squad. My own take is that he left us with a few decent players and in a much better state than CC and perhaps even Yogi, Mixu and Collins did but he left an unbalanced squad that is a little short on cover at the back and clearly lacks pace, creativity and in turn goals.

Since Butcher came in I would say the performances and results against St Mirren (both games), Partick, St Johnstone and Aberdeen were Fenlon-esq and the key thing that maybe means Butcher escapes the criticism Fenlon got for these sort of games is that he has not assessembled this squad.

I am encouraged by the results/performances v Ross County away (twice), Kilmarnock and Hearts (we should not get too carried away about beating this Hearts team but Fenlon never managed it - twice). I don't know too much about how we faired we Celtic and Dundee United as I never saw either game and haven't spoken to anyone who did.

I still believe that, given where we were and who we had in the squad on his appointment, it would be an achievement of sorts for TB to get us top 6 and he should not get too much flack if we don't I really want to see him mould us in a similar vein to what McInnes has done at Aberdeen by this time next year. I am confident that, with the support of the fans and the board, he can do it and Aberdeen are proof that you can come from where we are now to there in a short space of time if the right manager is in place and he makes the right signings.


He has certainly made a difference.

On the whole I'd say we look more organised and have a game plan and certain tactics which seem to be aimed at getting the ball wide and into the box quickly. We have seen an upturn in goals and chances.

Butcher and Malpas have also improved certain players. Stevenson and Robertson seem more comfortable in their favoured positions. Collins looks more of a goal threat and Paul Cairney has had a positive contribution albeit on the right and not his best position which IMO is on the left. Paul Hanlon has been different class and Forster has been a revelation at RB.

So performances both collectively and individually have improved for me. However the team screams for a goal scorer that can also operate outside the box - ala Griffiths, Riordan, Stokes - that kind of player. With Fenlon's in balanced squad Butcher has done reasonably well however looking at it very critically the games we have won, we should have won. Saturday was a freak result IMHO, they happen. They happened under Mowbray and McLeish but it does highlight our lack of depth.

He beat the Hertz so it's an 8/10 for me :aok:

[Stevie Reid]

3 defeats in 11 games, one away at Parkhead and one at Pittodrie, where I thought we defended well enough for a nil nil. Given that we were 2 nil up at Tannadice with seven minutes to go, the return from the last 3 games has been a huge disappointment, but we were very close to a win up there, very close to a draw with Aberdeen and, as much as we were awful in the first half on Saturday (when we still created good chances), we were a shocking decision away from a great comeback.

The biggest disappointment for me so far has been the failure to start a decent home record - two wins out of the very winnable the home fixtures we have had thus far (though if it could only be one, you'd take the Hearts one!) is frustrating, but we are definitely going in the right direction. Progression in the SC after a very tricky away tie against a team we had always struggled against is a big plus too.

[The Sea-gull]

He has certainly made a difference.

On the whole I'd say we look more organised and have a game plan and certain tactics which seem to be aimed at getting the ball wide and into the box quickly. We have seen an upturn in goals and chances.

Butcher and Malpas have also improved certain players. Stevenson and Robertson seem more comfortable in their favoured positions. Collins looks more of a goal threat and Paul Cairney has had a positive contribution albeit on the right and not his best position which IMO is on the left. Paul Hanlon has been different class and Forster has been a revelation at RB.

So performances both collectively and individually have improved for me. However the team screams for a goal scorer that can also operate outside the box - ala Griffiths, Riordan, Stokes - that kind of player. With Fenlon's in balanced squad Butcher has done reasonably well however looking at it very critically the games we have won, we should have won. Saturday was a freak result IMHO, they happen. They happened under Mowbray and McLeish but it does highlight our lack of depth.

He beat the Hertz so it's an 8/10 for me :aok:

Yeah, he has definitely got more out of Forster, Hanlon, Nelson, Stevenson, Robertson, Cairney and possibly Craig too.

While I still remain uncovinced about Collins ever being our main goal threat, he does seem a wee bit more at ease under TB and perhas he has been told that he should not get too bogged down about getting goals and just keep working hard for the team. He's doing this and the goals are coming through a wee bit now too. Arguably most improved player under Butcher.

[Andy74]

I think its all down to the players he brings in now.

Just in terms of the change of management , tactics, team selections etc it's made no differerence at all, even if the perception is that we are playing a more direct attacking game. It's different, but not having an impact on results just yet.

I'm slightly concenred he is at the stage already of writing off the players, particularly as many who played badly at the weekend have been okay up until now. A couple of weeks ago he was very positive and surprised at the quality and delighted with the work rate.

As I say, he has set out the stall now that the players we had are not right and that he needs to change it all - if he does that and we improve then brilliant.

From where we were in the league at he point Fenlon left I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get the upturn we might have been looking for. So, we are back to it being all on the players and in changing them over again as being the only thing that makes any odds.

What this does bring us again is another year or so of change, bedding in, and then if we aren't straight up there quickly enough we will do the same thing over again.

[Ronniekirk]

3 defeats in 11 games, one away at Parkhead and one at Pittodrie, where I thought we defended well enough for a nil nil. Given that we were 2 nil up at Tannadice with seven minutes to go, the return from the last 3 games has been a huge disappointment, but we were very close to a win up there, very close to a draw with Aberdeen and, as much as we were awful in the first half on Saturday (when we still created good chances), we were a shocking decision away from a great comeback.

The biggest disappointment for me so far has been the failure to start a decent home record - two wins out of the very winnable the home fixtures we have had thus far (though if it could only be one, you'd take the Hearts one!) is frustrating, but we are definitely going in the right direction. Progression in the SC after a very tricky away tie against a team we had always struggled against is a big plus too.

Its unfortunate we have Celtic next with kep players missing which means three defeats in a row and two home losses in a row. Will the fragility creep back in as I'd did against st mirren? Tell said I mo team under him had performed so badly . I think the kid gloves are now off and he will have more unrest as he is going to be ruthless and not put players on bench even . Think we need transfer window dealt with and see who hasn't moved on and who has come in then we will have better idea if it's delayed gratification till major rebuilding job in summer which is beginning to look more like what will happen or whether there is enough movement at the end to leave him time to wheel and deal. But until last two results and performances we were going in right direction no doubt about that

[Andy74]

Yeah, he has definitely got more out of Forster, Hanlon, Nelson, Stevenson, Robertson, Cairney and possibly Craig too.

.

I'm sorry, but totally disagree with that.

Forster has been very decent at right back but he performed very well previously too. Hanlon has been pretty consistent for a while now. Nelson when fit has been doing what Nelson does. Stevenson was doing consistently well wherever he was asked to play. I don't think he been anyting other than still reasonably good but hardly a huge influence on the left wing. Maybe one game?

Robertson and Craig are pretty much wasted where they are. Robertson was playing great stuff under Fenlon and Craig had scored 6 goals from the left wing.

Cairney was a key player when fit and doing well under Fenlon. Rightly dropped when his form went and has done okay since coming back fit again. Very poor at the weekend though.

I realise people are keen to show that Butcher is doing well but that statement on those players is just wrong.

[marinello59]

I think its all down to the players he brings in now.

Just in terms of the change of management , tactics, team selections etc it's made no differerence at all, even if the perception is that we are playing a more direct attacking game. It's different, but not having an impact on results just yet.

I'm slightly concenred he is at the stage already of writing off the players, particularly as many who played badly at the weekend have been okay up until now. A couple of weeks ago he was very positive and surprised at the quality and delighted with the work rate.

As I say, he has set out the stall now that the players we had are not right and that he needs to change it all - if he does that and we improve then brilliant.

From where we were in the league at he point Fenlon left I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get the upturn we might have been looking for. So, we are back to it being all on the players and in changing them over again as being the only thing that makes any odds.

What this does bring us again is another year or so of change, bedding in, and then if we aren't straight up there quickly enough we will do the same thing over again.

Fenlon left as poor a squad as he inherited. When the last roll of the dice to change our fortune is Zoubir, as it was on Saturday, we have truly crapped out. At least any new players coming in will be coming to a team with a recognisable system, something you couldn't say about Fenlon's team.

[Ronniekirk]

I think its all down to the players he brings in now.

Just in terms of the change of management , tactics, team selections etc it's made no differerence at all, even if the perception is that we are playing a more direct attacking game. It's different, but not having an impact on results just yet.

I'm slightly concenred he is at the stage already of writing off the players, particularly as many who played badly at the weekend have been okay up until now. A couple of weeks ago he was very positive and surprised at the quality and delighted with the work rate.

As I say, he has set out the stall now that the players we had are not right and that he needs to change it all - if he does that and we improve then brilliant.

From where we were in the league at he point Fenlon left I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get the upturn we might have been looking for. So, we are back to it being all on the players and in changing them over again as being the only thing that makes any odds.

What this does bring us again is another year or so of change, bedding in, and then if we aren't straight up there quickly enough we will do the same thing over again.


Wasnt going ring to be as pessimistic as that but agree something has changed his positivity in last week or so and if he is now publicly and privately slating players something is clearly not right. Having given them a roasting after Aberdeen game he would of expected more on Saturday and even embarrassed by that first half hours performance. So maybe he is rethinking some decisions through that he had already made based on these two performances

[Andy74]

Fenlon left as poor a squad as he inherited. When the last roll of the dice to change our fortune is Zoubir, as it was on Saturday, we have truly crapped out. At least any new players coming in will be coming to a team with a recognisable system, something you couldn't say about Fenlon's team.

The squad he inherited was genuinely capable of being relegated. It was hugely divided and unprofessional.

The one he left lacked pace and some creativity but it was a squad that despite a poor start was in the top six and 5 points off second place.

[The Sea-gull]

I'm sorry, but totally disagree with that.

Forster has been very decent at right back but he performed very well previously too. Hanlon has been pretty consistent for a while now. Nelson when fit has been doing what Nelson does. Stevenson was doing consistently well wherever he was asked to play. I don't think he been anyting other than still reasonably good but hardly a huge influence on the left wing. Maybe one game?

Robertson and Craig are pretty much wasted where they are. Robertson was playing great stuff under Fenlon and Craig had scored 6 goals from the left wing.

Cairney was a key player when fit and doing well under Fenlon. Rightly dropped when his form went and has done okay since coming back fit again. Very poor at the weekend though.

I realise people are keen to show that Butcher is doing well but that statement on those players is just wrong.

This season, i don't think Forster was really in the team until Butcher came in? Maybe I am the only one who feels this but I think Hanlon has definitely improved since Butcher came in and while the partnership with Nelson was ok before, I think Saturday showed, with Hanlon missing, just how much it has solidifed in recent weeks.

Stevenson did ok at RB earlier in the season but looked out of position and now, while I concede is probably not the long term answer, looks far more effective at left mid and his performances seem to be more effective out there since TB arrivied thus constituting an improvement in performance from earlier in the season.

Robertson is a central midfielder and has now been played there more regularly. Up until he last couple of games had been showing a bit more consistency than he had under Fenlon. Craig scored 6 goals under Fenlon but 3 were against Stranraer. If we are basing it on goals scored then he has hit three against SPL teams under Butcher - same as he did under PF.

Cairney had a bad game on Sat but he has been better than he had been in about a year up until then - again like Stevenson I don't see him as being the long term answer.

I do realise though that people are keen to show that Fenlon did well but I won't go as far as bluntly telling them they are wrong and will respect that their opinion differs to mine.

[Speedway]

W4 D4 L3 with Celtic next up = mediocrity.

Current assessment of tenure two months in = mediocre.

[B.H.F.C]

I'm sorry, but totally disagree with that.

Forster has been very decent at right back but he performed very well previously too. Hanlon has been pretty consistent for a while now. Nelson when fit has been doing what Nelson does. Stevenson was doing consistently well wherever he was asked to play. I don't think he been anyting other than still reasonably good but hardly a huge influence on the left wing. Maybe one game?

Robertson and Craig are pretty much wasted where they are. Robertson was playing great stuff under Fenlon and Craig had scored 6 goals from the left wing.

Cairney was a key player when fit and doing well under Fenlon. Rightly dropped when his form went and has done okay since coming back fit again. Very poor at the weekend though.

I realise people are keen to show that Butcher is doing well but that statement on those players is just wrong.

Agree and disagree with some of that Andy.

Forster has played well at right back. That, for me, shows how big a mistake playing Stevenson at right back was. I must admit I thought Forster was a wee bit uncomfortable at right back in his first couple of games but really grew in to the role. I think Hanlon has kicked on a bit although he was consistent earlier in the season and as you say Nelson just does what he does.

Cairney was miles out of the picture at the point Fenlon left although he had been fit for a few weeks he couldn't get in to the squad. He shows the odd flash of quality but nowhere near as consistent as he was when he first came to the club.

Completely agree on Stevenson. For me he only really raised the bar in a couple of games. Other than that he's pretty much played as you'd expect.

As for the central two I really don't feel it's working.

Biggest disappointment for me is that following the Hearts win we have only picked up one point out of nine. Granted we have had a couple of tough away games but we were two up with ten minutes to go in one of them.

Long term I have confidence in him though. We've got a lot of poor players that need to be replaced. I just hope we aren't saying the same again in 18 months time.

[The Sea-gull]

W4 D4 L3 with Celtic next up = mediocrity.

Current assessment of tenure two months in = mediocre.

Yip, no denying it but perhaps with the slight crumb of comfort being that he is an experienced SPL manager with a decent track record and hasn't run through any transfer windows as yet?

[Onion]

TB is still having to work with Fenlon's Flops and on balance has done pretty well with them. Other than the odd occasion, the way TB has set the team up, changed tactics, use players at his disposal, and his views on the game have been pretty sound.

Just looking at the match ups of some Hibs players with their opposite numbers, makes it clear there are some that are simply not good enough for HFC and should never have been brought to the club. TB has ID'd a few already, but has likely added to that list after the last 2 games.

[inglisavhibs]

What we all thinking so far? There have been some encouraging performances/results but also signs that we are still well short in terms of a squad we can rely on consistently. He's done ok with the tools at his disposal but it has proven that he is not a miricle worker and it will take more than just a change in manager to get us where we want to be week in week out.

There has been a lot of talk that Fenlon left us with a good squad. My own take is that he left us with a few decent players and in a much better state than CC and perhaps even Yogi, Mixu and Collins did but he left an unbalanced squad that is a little short on cover at the back and clearly lacks pace, creativity and in turn goals.

Since Butcher came in I would say the performances and results against St Mirren (both games), Partick, St Johnstone and Aberdeen were Fenlon-esq and the key thing that maybe means Butcher escapes the criticism Fenlon got for these sort of games is that he has not assessembled this squad.

I am encouraged by the results/performances v Ross County away (twice), Kilmarnock and Hearts (we should not get too carried away about beating this Hearts team but Fenlon never managed it - twice). I don't know too much about how we faired with Celtic and Dundee United as I never saw either game and haven't spoken to anyone who did.

I still believe that, given where we were and who we had in the squad on his appointment, it would be an achievement of sorts for TB to get us top 6 and he should not get too much flack if we don't I really want to see him mould us in a similar vein to what McInnes has done at Aberdeen by this time next year. I am confident that, with the support of the fans and the board, he can do it and Aberdeen are proof that you can come from where we are now to there in a short space of time if the right manager is in place and he makes the right signings.
I feel exactly the same as when he arrived. If we are to be top three material, we need three or four athletic players to be brought in. Hopefully Harris and Stanton continue to progress and become regulars.

[jacomo]

The squad he inherited was genuinely capable of being relegated. It was hugely divided and unprofessional.

The one he left lacked pace and some creativity but it was a squad that despite a poor start was in the top six and 5 points off second place.

Fair points. I am also concerned that the only answer we keep coming back to is "clear out the dross, allow the new man to bring his own players in". We've been through this cycle many times now and it's a very expensive way of treading water.

Our first choice keeper and back four are good enough for the top six in this league... although undoubtedly we lack cover. We've been unlucky that both McGivern and Hanlon are out at the same time and Clancy's long term issues, as he offered cover on the other side.

Elsewhere, we have a mix of experience and ability, if lacking balance throughout the squad. Of the recent recruits, Craig, Robertson, Heffernan and Vine (yes, really) have all proved they can cut it in this league, so why can't they be good enough for us? Collins has potential and is young enough to improve, although he does seem disappointingly raw at times. Cairney might be in the Deegan / McBride bracket - making a bright start before fading - while I've never been convinced by Zoubir.

And we have some decent young prospects in Harris, Stanton, Cummings and Handling, although not all of them will establish themselves. I'm afraid I've not seen much in Caldwell or Booth but perhaps they will return as better players.

[Scouse Hibee]

Pretty disappointing to be honest, I guess my expectations were too high of what he could actually do with the squad he inherited. I'm fed up of attending games, and watching piss poor football time and time again. I'm really not sure I can be convinced to renew my ST this time.

[Borderhibbie76]

Cant believe some of uber negative comments on here, sat apart we have been playing well, competing and scoring goals. We had only list to top 2 teams by a single goal. Ffs we were brutal under fenlon, eye bleeding, one paced, sideways passing and lucky if we had 1 shot on target in a full home game!! Poor as we were on Saturday. ..but for willie gollum...we would have snatched a draw and came back from 3 down!! Rome wasnt built in a day guys...but wish the fenlon lovers would gie it a rest...shocker of a manager who whether u want to believe it or not left us with a largely poor and imbalanced squad! He is gone...get over it particularly andy74...its getting boring mate!!

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[Andy74]

Cant believe some of uber negative comments on here, sat apart we have been playing well, competing and scoring goals. We had only list to top 2 teams by a single goal. Ffs we were brutal under fenlon, eye bleeding, one paced, sideways passing and lucky if we had 1 shot on target in a full home game!! Poor as we were on Saturday. ..but for willie gollum...we would have snatched a draw and came back from 3 down!! Rome wasnt built in a day guys...but wish the fenlon lovers would gie it a rest...shocker of a manager who whether u want to believe it or not left us with a largely poor and imbalanced squad! He is gone...get over it particularly andy74...its getting boring mate!!

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Perhaps people should stop asking the question then if they don't want the discussion on it.

There are lots and lots of views on Fenlon, other previous manager, players etc. If you, like you have there, give your view then you can't expect anyone with an opposite view just to leave it.

Do you mean give it a rest if we don't agree with you - otherwise bash on?

[Borderhibbie76]

Just think ur fenlon obsession is now boring and im not the only one to think this...u bring him up every opportunity you get and it's tiresome. Regardless of opinions he is gone...never coming back so can we just leave it at that...

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[ahibby]

I don't expect much from this season as I accept we are a team in transition which is bringing youngsters on. I'll be pleased if we pick up again, but it's hard to imagine we will until we get all injured players back or bring in a couple as has been hinted by TB. I think TB has a more difficult job than PF at this time if for no other reason than he has axed senior players who might have been able to dig in. However, I think he has done the right thing but time will tell.

[Elephant Stone]

Fenlon left as poor a squad as he inherited. When the last roll of the dice to change our fortune is Zoubir, as it was on Saturday, we have truly crapped out. At least any new players coming in will be coming to a team with a recognisable system, something you couldn't say about Fenlon's team.

You surely can't be serious.


Just think ur fenlon obsession is now boring and im not the only one to think this...u bring him up every opportunity you get and it's tiresome. Regardless of opinions he is gone...never coming back so can we just leave it at that...

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There are posters who berate Fenlon at every opportunity, I don't think wanting to defend him equates to an obsession, especially when most of it is in response to an attack on Fenlon, rather than the other way around.

[inglisavhibs]

Pretty disappointing to be honest, I guess my expectations were too high of what he could actually do with the squad he inherited. I'm fed up of attending games, and watching piss poor football time and time again. I'm really not sure I can be convinced to renew my ST this time.
Really you think it's that bad? The last few home games including Saturday's have been much more entertaining than what's gone before. Even though we lost on Saturday we showed plenty fight and could have snatched an unlikely draw. We all want a better team and i am sure we will get it but we need supporters to back the team more than ever.

[Andy74]

Just think ur fenlon obsession is now boring and im not the only one to think this...u bring him up every opportunity you get and it's tiresome. Regardless of opinions he is gone...never coming back so can we just leave it at that...

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I don't bring him up unless its raised or someone is asking about comparisons.

I'm not asking for him to come back, quite happy with Butcher but whilst there is discussion on the subject you will just have to get used to the odd post on it.

[Saorsa]

I don't bring him up unless its raised or someone is asking about comparisons.

I'm not asking for him to come back, quite happy with Butcher but whilst there is discussion on the subject you will just have to get used to the odd post on it.Just the odd one then? :hilarious

[down-the-slope]

Fenlon left as poor a squad as he inherited. When the last roll of the dice to change our fortune is Zoubir, as it was on Saturday, we have truly crapped out. At least any new players coming in will be coming to a team with a recognisable system, something you couldn't say about Fenlon's team.

Personally thats not true. Craig / McGivern / Robertson / Williams / Thomson / McPake are all better than the players they replaced

Pat dragged us out a mess and changed a lot...but ultimately could not move us to the next level....Terry I believe will...but there is still a fair way to travel

[Keith_M]

Up until two weeks ago, Butcher's record was:

W: 4 - D: 4 - L:1

Which everybody (well, maybe nearly everybody) would surely agree is a good start, given he hasn't yet signed any of his own players.

Unfortunately, after the Celtc game, it's likely to be

W: 4 - D: 4 - L:4 **

The very definition of mediocrity.


What encourages me is that I don't believe for a minute that Butcher will be happy about that and I also have confidence, given time and the chance to sign his own players, that he'll improve that situation.



** Of course, in the unlikely event we beat Celtc, everybody will suddenly be ecstatic again. That's football :wink:

[Heisenberg]

He can be properly judged and scrutinised when he's got a team of his own on the park. Just now he's making do and using what he's got giving us a pretty average return. We certainly are scoring more goals (albeit from set pieces, attacking from open play still needs improved).

[ancient hibee]

Butcher plays the players he trusts and some of them let him down on Saturday-he won't forget that.There will be radical change in the summer.Fenlon's biggest mistake was bringing in too many players for the same position-central midfield.This unbalanced the squad and used up the dosh.

[Scouse Hibee]

Really you think it's that bad? The last few home games including Saturday's have been much more entertaining than what's gone before. Even though we lost on Saturday we showed plenty fight and could have snatched an unlikely draw. We all want a better team and i am sure we will get it but we need supporters to back the team more than ever.


That's how I feel at the moment mate, not slagging anyone off just telling how it is with me, losing interest rapidly I'm afraid.

[Ronniekirk]

Pretty disappointing to be honest, I guess my expectations were too high of what he could actually do with the squad he inherited. I'm fed up of attending games, and watching piss poor football time and time again. I'm really not sure I can be convinced to renew my ST this time.

Bit early for that is it not.you need to give him summer transfer window as well as this one before reaching that type of decision . Having said that at 3. O down on Saturday you couldn't of complained if some fans headed for exit .

[Scouse Hibee]

Bit early for that is it not.you need to give him summer transfer window as well as this one before reaching that type of decision . Having said that at 3. O down on Saturday you couldn't of complained if some fans headed for exit .


A bit early! I'm not just talking about Butcher, I'm talking about the last couple of years and my lack of interest every passing week. Don't know if I want to go through yet another rebuilding process in the hope of success again. Having said that I have watched football for the last 30 odd years with a season ticket so not sure if I can break the bond!

[Inch Hibs]

Much more positivity about the place and I think the team is a lot better under Butcher than under Fenlon.

We have to accept that there are a lot of players not good enough to play for our club if we want to improve. Stevenson, Maybury, Robertson Nelson, and Cairney to name a few. Would add McGivern to the too. They are all no bad players but for the resources we have we should have better.

[chrisski33]

Cant believe the question of how butcher is getting on after 2 months has come up and already produces negativeness. So who does this andy poster think we shud have in charge? Fenlon? Butcher has done massive improvements so far, yes st midden result wasnt great but wait til he gets his OWN players in! Lets give the guys some time!

[Andy74]

Cant believe the question of how butcher is getting on after 2 months has come up and already produces negativeness. So who does this andy poster think we shud have in charge? Fenlon? Butcher has done massive improvements so far, yes st midden result wasnt great but wait til he gets his OWN players in! Lets give the guys some time!

The Andy guy is quite happy Butcher is in charge!

[Dashing Bob S]

It's been nothing short of miraculous, to be honest. He's put back the desire, organisation and soul of the club, and has revitalised players like Hanlon and Stevenson.

He's doing everything right, getting the best out of what we have, and identifying the players who aren't good enough, or don't fit into his style of play or share his obvious work ethic and desire to succeed.

I've been massively impressed by the way he's going about his business. I'd like to see him make a signing or two in this window, but I'm happy to give him time to reshape the team more radically in the summer, rather than just snap at dross that might be available in these sales. As far as I'm concerned, he's earned it.

[Inch Hibs]

It's been nothing short of miraculous, to be honest. He's put back the desire, organisation and soul of the club, and has revitalised players like Hanlon and Stevenson.

He's doing everything right, getting the best out of what we have, and identifying the players who aren't good enough, or don't fit into his style of play or share his obvious work ethic and desire to succeed.

I've been massively impressed by the way he's going about his business. I'd like to see him make a signing or two in this window, but I'm happy to give him time to reshape the team more radically in the summer, rather than just snap at dross that might be available in these sales. As far as I'm concerned, he's earned it.


Great post.

[chrisski33]

The Andy guy is quite happy Butcher is in charge!

Reading previous posts on here id say hed rather fenlon was in charge lol

[Liberal Hibby]

Reading previous posts on here id say hed rather fenlon was in charge lol

No - I think Andy, like myself, and many others simply want to see some stability at the top of the club - without having ther constant churn of managers and players we have seen for years now.

Despite Saturday - I don't think Butcher is going to smash up the squad - he's still talking about baby steps and improving what we've have. At ICT this season he played the same team in every game he managed and was lucky with suspensions and injuries.

So he'll persist with 'Fenlon's duds' as it were.

[Criswell]

I for one didn't expect miracles from Terry from day one. Those who did probably haven't been near a Hibs match for donkeys! I am pleased that we are making progress and I see a huge improvement in the attitude, desire and work-rate of the team. Unfortunately, we lack the neccessary quality in key areas to consistantly achieve results. We will be a work-in-progress for some time, but I have every faith that he will get us there. I am sure the vast majority of fans can see the problems he has inherited and that these can't be rectified overnight.

[IberianHibernian]

Cant believe the question of how butcher is getting on after 2 months has come up and already produces negativeness. So who does this andy poster think we shud have in charge? Fenlon? Butcher has done massive improvements so far, yes st midden result wasnt great but wait til he gets his OWN players in! Lets give the guys some time!Noone`s saying we should go on a great unbeaten run but results have been disappointing ( worse than against same teams in first round of fixtures when we had players like Harris , Cairney and Nelson out injured ) and performances far from great ( stuff about committed team might have meant something 3 or 4 years ago but was never a problem while Fenlon was manager - performances in last 2 home matches against Celtic were an example of how to get commitment from players for example ) . Petrie chose to go for Butcher and his team ( which won`t have been a cheap option ) instead of having a proper selection process or doing more to keep Fenlon because he thought that TB`s knowledge of Scottish league would make it easy for him to improve team within club`s budget - improve team in terms of results and style of play -he clearly hasn`t managed to do either so far ( of course it`s soon but lack of selection process was I`m sure at least partly based on assumption that experience and knowledge would lead to better results and performances ) . And stuff about "Own players " - are we going to continue changing managers and giving new ones so much money and 3 or 4 transfer windows to prove their worths ? Presumably we signed Butcher because he has a lot of experience as a manager and has learned from his mistakes and knows how to get the best out of players . He also has an advantage that other Hibernian managers have not had in that he seems to get very favourable press - bad results and / or performances are interpreted as showing failings of his predeccessors and successes as being signs of the "New Hibs " .

[FitbaFolkKen]

I don't think anything on the pitch has changed much. I really liked Pat but it was his time to go but there has been a massive exaggeration on here regarding the difference between Fenlon and Butcher so far. Saying that, it feels like a watershed from some of the really bad results we had under him, coupled with their demise over the road has led to a much more positive attitude towards the club from the fans in general.

I genuinely don't think there is a better time to be Hibs manager than now with the stadium, he'll get backed financially, the fanbase and the guaranteed dominance as the only top flight Edinburgh club for at least a season.

I'm impressed with the way Butcher has approached the task so far and I'm looking forward to the next few years at Easter Road. :tbgwa:

[Northernhibee]

Noone`s saying we should go on a great unbeaten run but results have been disappointing ( worse than against same teams in first round of fixtures when we had players like Harris , Cairney and Nelson out injured ) and performances far from great ( stuff about committed team might have meant something 3 or 4 years ago but was never a problem while Fenlon was manager - performances in last 2 home matches against Celtic were an example of how to get commitment from players for example ) . Petrie chose to go for Butcher and his team ( which won`t have been a cheap option ) instead of having a proper selection process or doing more to keep Fenlon because he thought that TB`s knowledge of Scottish league would make it easy for him to improve team within club`s budget - improve team in terms of results and style of play -he clearly hasn`t managed to do either so far ( of course it`s soon but lack of selection process was I`m sure at least partly based on assumption that experience and knowledge would lead to better results and performances ) . And stuff about "Own players " - are we going to continue changing managers and giving new ones so much money and 3 or 4 transfer windows to prove their worths ? Presumably we signed Butcher because he has a lot of experience as a manager and has learned from his mistakes and knows how to get the best out of players . He also has an advantage that other Hibernian managers have not had in that he seems to get very favourable press - bad results and / or performances are interpreted as showing failings of his predeccessors and successes as being signs of the "New Hibs " .

Really struggling to find much to agree with here - we're seeing quite a change of style to us - much more direct (and it's not hoofball before someone says) and it's a real change. We've seen some very good performances - 3-0 vs Killie, the games against Ross County up in Dingwall, 2-1 vs Hearts in front of a sold out crowd. Consistency takes time but we're getting more shots on goal, scoring more and will continue to improve.

A couple of Aberdeen supporting friends of mine said that they thought we were really unlucky not to get a point at Pittodrie - thought Hanlon and Lewis were really good, Collins will come good, thought that we closed everything down and also interestingly picked out McGivern as a player they really liked.

[Beefster]

Some of you guys are nuts. Two months in the door, no change in personnel, general agreement that the football is better to watch and folk are back to being remotely enthused about going to the games. Yet, some folk are disappointed? After two months?

[IWasThere2016]

Some of you guys are nuts. Two months in the door, no change in personnel, general agreement that the football is better to watch and folk are back to being remotely enthused about going to the games. Yet, some folk are disappointed? After two months?

This.

[matty_f]

Some of you guys are nuts. Two months in the door, no change in personnel, general agreement that the football is better to watch and folk are back to being remotely enthused about going to the games. Yet, some folk are disappointed? After two months?

Also seems to be no allowance for the fact that on Saturday we had to make three changes to our back four, and one change to our midfield just a few minutes into the game. We don't have the quality in depth to deal well with that. It seems we also played Cairney despite him having the flu, so it's understandable that we weren't at our best, even if it's disappointing and frustrating.
Fenlon didn't have his troubles to seek with injuries either and he lost Cairney and Harris who were really going to be his creative threat going forward so again I think it's important to keep some semblance of perspective on some of Fenlon's team's performances (he was also shy a right back, and left back at times, and lost Nelson from the centre half position) .
Fenlon was getting performances from several players though, but the mentality of the team was wrong imho. Not losing was more important than winning and from my point of view, that's the biggest difference between butcher and fenlon. Butcher wants to win every game.

Short term that won't make a difference because injuries still leave us with a lack of quality and that'll get exposed but butcher will be given the opportunity to address that issue and if he does we should start to see tangible improvements.

[Marty-Hibee]

I'm glad it is a minority but it is mind boggling how folk can suggest we haven't improved.

TB is playing with EXACTLY the same squad as Fenlon, and has in the shortest of times made our regular back 4 go from a bunch of children-esque players to quite frankly as solid a defense I've seen in quite a few years.

Always baffled when I see Robertson criticised as well, I'd put him down as the player of the season at the half way mark..constantly running, trying to support the front 2 (or one under Fenlon)

Their is shape and tactics to the team now, every player knowing their role. Granted results haven't been EXCEPTIONAL, but who thought they would be?

TB doesn't mince his words, he'll know from his team exactly who he wants and who can go..Fenlon would have defended that result on Saturday, Terry said it how it should have been.

Can't wait to see the people already on his back crawl back in a few seasons time, because I'm more than confident the only way is up under Butcher

[Scouse Hibee]

I'm glad it is a minority but it is mind boggling how folk can suggest we haven't improved.

TB is playing with EXACTLY the same squad as Fenlon, and has in the shortest of times made our regular back 4 go from a bunch of children-esque players to quite frankly as solid a defense I've seen in quite a few years.

Always baffled when I see Robertson criticised as well, I'd put him down as the player of the season at the half way mark..constantly running, trying to support the front 2 (or one under Fenlon)

Their is shape and tactics to the team now, every player knowing their role. Granted results haven't been EXCEPTIONAL, but who thought they would be?

TB doesn't mince his words, he'll know from his team exactly who he wants and who can go..Fenlon would have defended that result on Saturday, Terry said it how it should have been.

Can't wait to see the people already on his back crawl back in a few seasons time, because I'm more than confident the only way is up under Butcher


Good for you, I'm not on his back as I have already stated I'm just fed up of watching ****** and am not sure if I can wait and go through yet another lengthy rebuilding process. If I do give up my ST and decide to come back when things get better then that's up to me so away with your crawling back pish super fan!

[FitbaFolkKen]

I'm glad it is a minority but it is mind boggling how folk can suggest we haven't improved.

TB is playing with EXACTLY the same squad as Fenlon, and has in the shortest of times made our regular back 4 go from a bunch of children-esque players to quite frankly as solid a defense I've seen in quite a few years.

Always baffled when I see Robertson criticised as well, I'd put him down as the player of the season at the half way mark..constantly running, trying to support the front 2 (or one under Fenlon)

Their is shape and tactics to the team now, every player knowing their role. Granted results haven't been EXCEPTIONAL, but who thought they would be?

TB doesn't mince his words, he'll know from his team exactly who he wants and who can go..Fenlon would have defended that result on Saturday, Terry said it how it should have been.

Can't wait to see the people already on his back crawl back in a few seasons time, because I'm more than confident the only way is up under Butcher

We've always been pretty solid at the back, there is almost no difference in the goals conceded in the league. This is why people are disappointed etc.... It's clear some folk are getting carried away with the improvement whereas some are pointing out that it isn't really that different yet.

[Marty-Hibee]

I'm glad it is a minority but it is mind boggling how folk can suggest we haven't improved.

TB is playing with EXACTLY the same squad as Fenlon, and has in the shortest of times made our regular back 4 go from a bunch of children-esque players to quite frankly as solid a defense I've seen in quite a few years.

Always baffled when I see Robertson criticised as well, I'd put him down as the player of the season at the half way mark..constantly running, trying to support the front 2 (or one under Fenlon)

Their is shape and tactics to the team now, every player knowing their role. Granted results haven't been EXCEPTIONAL, but who thought they would be?

TB doesn't mince his words, he'll know from his team exactly who he wants and who can go..Fenlon would have defended that result on Saturday, Terry said it how it should have been.

Can't wait to see the people already on his back crawl back in a few seasons time, because I'm more than confident the only way is up under Butcher


Good for you, I'm not on his back as I have already stated I'm just fed up of watching ****** and am not sure if I can wait and go through yet another lengthy rebuilding process. If I do give up my ST and decide to come back when things get better then that's up to me so away with your crawling back pish super fan!



Super fan? Settle down. I'm just miffed at people having a go at a manager after two months. If you're fed up, fair enough, but what do you want? The past is the past, and as a fan of Hibs, you sign up for the bad as much as the good. I've had a season ticket 3 of my 22 years on this planet so I don't think I'm a better fan than anyone else, faaar from it, and if you want to stay away til we get better, then fair enough, I wouldn't blame you in the slightest. All I'm saying here is the folk having a go after two months will in my opinion be eating their words.

[Scouse Hibee]

[QUOTE=Scouse Hibee;3878095]



Super fan? Settle down. I'm just miffed at people having a go at a manager after two months. If you're fed up, fair enough, but what do you want? The past is the past, and as a fan of Hibs, you sign up for the bad as much as the good. I've had a season ticket 3 of my 22 years on this planet so I don't think I'm a better fan than anyone else, faaar from it, and if you want to stay away til we get better, then fair enough, I wouldn't blame you in the slightest. All I'm saying here is the folk having a go after two months will in my opinion be eating their words.

So people having a different opinion on the progress so far is having a go at the manager in your eyes, deary me! I'm well aware the past is the past and look forward and all that, however it becomes difficult to do every couple of years as seems to be the case with Hibs as we begin yet another rebuild. As for signing up for the good and the bad, you don't need to tell me that, I signed up 20 odd years ago after watching Liverpool for the previous 18 odd years so for me it's been all bad :greengrin

[Marty-Hibee]

[QUOTE=Marty-Hibee;3878123]

So people having a different opinion on the progress so far is having a go at the manager in your eyes, deary me! I'm well aware the past is the past and look forward and all that, however it becomes difficult to do every couple of years as seems to be the case with Hibs as we begin yet another rebuild. As for signing up for the good and the bad, you don't need to tell me that, I signed up 20 odd years ago after watching Liverpool for the previous 18 odd years so for me it's been all bad :greengrin


Fair enough! I'm not here for an argument, I've just got a positive mindset with Hibs for the first time in a long time, so I'm maybe jumping the gun a bit at folk who aren't agreeing with me.

[Scouse Hibee]

[QUOTE=Scouse Hibee;3878243]


Fair enough! I'm not here for an argument, I've just got a positive mindset with Hibs for the first time in a long time, so I'm maybe jumping the gun a bit at folk who aren't agreeing with me.

:aok: We're all a bit tense mate, hopefully things will look up and we'll all be happy as TB develops his own squad. :thumbsup:

[basehibby]

I think Butcher has made an impact on the style of play - playing Craig and Robertson in the middle instead of <pick any 2 from a plethora of sitting midfielders> has given us a more of a positive style - and the team in general has clearly been told to get the ball forward quicker and shoot more often. The result at this stage is a much more direct team which, while hardly being purveyors of artistic football, are still more entertaining to watch and go about their business with far more urgency than before.

It's encouraging that, along with Malpas, Butcher has made a definite impression on the team - the players seem to have a much clearer game plan and some seem to have been genuinely lifted by their presence and have shown a consequent upturn in confidence and the quality of their play.

Two months in, and although the improvement has hardly been dramatic, it's definately there! I suppose with exactly the same squad of players we can only expect so much - will be very interested to see if any new faces appear over the next couple of weeks and what positions they will fill - so far it's 7/10 from me.

[Jonnyboy]

Some of you guys are nuts. Two months in the door, no change in personnel, general agreement that the football is better to watch and folk are back to being remotely enthused about going to the games. Yet, some folk are disappointed? After two months?

:agree:

[Speedway]

I think people believe in Butcher more than Fenlon and like his press patter.

Results suggest little difference has actually taken place thus far.

[BT58]

Some of you guys are nuts. Two months in the door, no change in personnel, general agreement that the football is better to watch and folk are back to being remotely enthused about going to the games. Yet, some folk are disappointed? After two months?
Well said Beefster !!!! :aok::aok::aok:
A new manager coming in to any club will take time to assess his staff, TB will hopefully bring in players with PACE and an ability to improve the team.
The disruption of losing 50% of the defense on saturday would unsettle any team.
Hopefully TB will get in 2/3 new players, to give us all a lift

[Ronniekirk]

I think people believe in Butcher more than Fenlon and like his press patter.

Results suggest little difference has actually taken place thus far.


Think you are being to hasty to judge .I turned up at st mirren game expecting to win comfortably enough as we did earlier in season with Fenlon s team . Was gutted after 30 odd minutes, and yes I booed them off the park as a display like that merited this .However lots of factors conspired against us. I do expect Celtic to beat us and they may well turn us over as last two games have been close, but I do get the feeling things will turn for us ,how quickly ? Down to staying injury free, who we bring in in window and how well others strengthen their squad.

Think a lot of the frustration is some people had convinced themselves and others we had a squad capable of challenging for top four ,and all we needed was a new manager to man manage these players ,coach them into a system and confidence and results would flow. We have seen lots of evidence butcher et al can do there bit , but the squad was never as good as hype and that's been proved ,so yes it is another summer building job and as frustrated as I am with that am still confident with two or three right signings we can give 6th place a go.

[PeterboroHibee]

I think there has been a fairly big improvement under Butcher.

There seems to be more confidence in the team, players look like they know what they are doing and up until the St Mirren game, we were looking a lot better at the back.

In terms of results, Id say there has been a general improvement. The St Mirren game was a real shocker and you could tell Butcher was furious about it, but the other two defeats were away at the top 2 in the league and both games by 1 goal. On top of that we were impressive against Killie, beat Hearts and were hugely unlucky imo to not get 3 points against United.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think people believe in Butcher more than Fenlon and like his press patter.

Results suggest little difference has actually taken place thus far.

There was a time when the vast majority believed in Fenlon.