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Nomeancity
18-01-2014, 09:31 PM
For the record I think we have - but only just. Give TB some time and I think he will do the business.

but.... We did get carried away a bit. Ross County games aside.

Scraped a win against the worst hearts side since the late seventies.

last 20 mins against dundee utd was as bad as anything under fenlon.

lost to Aberdeen with how many shots on goals - and ict beat them.

3 nil down against st mirren at home after 25 mins?

this isn't an anti-TB post - he is moving us forward.

its a post against us getting carried away after a few results - last 3 games has shown we still have a long way to go.

but we will get there!

B.H.F.C
18-01-2014, 09:37 PM
Will judge properly when he has his own team.

I certainly feel more positive about Hibs, and going to games, than I did a few months ago.

HibbyRod
18-01-2014, 09:56 PM
In a nutshell ...... Yes!

Lots of room for additional improvement though! :rolleyes:

Inch Hibs
18-01-2014, 09:57 PM
Yes.

E10 Rifle
18-01-2014, 09:59 PM
Sometimes

QMU-1875
18-01-2014, 10:06 PM
We definitely are. Second half performance was a massive improvement, we need to remember willie Collum has cost us a point with a terrible call on the penalty decision, we come back to 3-3 and this board wouldn't be half as negative!

Stax
18-01-2014, 10:08 PM
Scraped a win against hearts ? When was this like :confused:

Aldo
18-01-2014, 10:08 PM
We definitely are. Second half performance was a massive improvement, we need to remember willie Collum has cost us a point with a terrible call on the penalty decision, we come back to 3-3 and this board wouldn't be half as negative!

We cost ourselves any points today with an inept and terrible first half performance.

Have we made progress. Yes but loads of room for improvement.

Inch Hibs
18-01-2014, 10:09 PM
Scraped a win against hearts ? When was this like :confused:

We we totally outplayed them, had 100 chances and they fluked a goal.

Do keep up ;)

weonlywon6-2
18-01-2014, 10:14 PM
Yes we have.I have so much more belief in hibs now than i have had for several years.TB needs time and some new faces.
May i also point out that there are some odd results chucked up in this league every week.

Onwards and upwards

neil7908
18-01-2014, 10:16 PM
Yes...but not as much as I had hoped to be honest. I like the look of TB and was delighted with is appointment and I'm confident that once he can get his own players in (probably not until summer unfortunately) he will start to really move the club forward.

Despite all that I must admit that last 3 games have been no better than most of what we saw under Fenlon. Of particular concern to me is the style of football we are playing - lets be honest, its mostly been route one stuff with very little of the ball on the deck.

Again, the time to judge is in a year and I do think we are still in a better place than under Fenlon but I still find it incredibly frustrating seeing results like today or capitulations against Dundee Utd with 10 mins to go.

Aldo
18-01-2014, 10:17 PM
We we totally outplayed them, had 100 chances and they fluked a goal. Do keep up ;)

23 to be precise. (Sad statto I hear you say.) :-D

OsloHibs
18-01-2014, 10:20 PM
No.

weonlywon6-2
18-01-2014, 10:21 PM
Yes we have.I have so much more belief in hibs now than i have had for several years.TB needs time and some new faces.
May i also point out that there are some odd results chucked up in this league every week.

Onwards and upwards

McKenzie
18-01-2014, 10:32 PM
Would we have brought two goals back after that first half performance under Fenlon? I think not. The fight and determination is there, once we bring in more quality we will see a far greater difference.

Inch Hibs
18-01-2014, 10:33 PM
23 to be precise. (Sad statto I hear you say.) :-D

Haha only felt like 100 then buddy :)

Aldo
18-01-2014, 10:34 PM
Haha only felt like 100 then buddy :)

We pounded them big time. And should of scored more but heay a win is a win.

Inch Hibs
18-01-2014, 10:36 PM
We pounded them big time. And should of scored more but heay a win is a win.

Totally. The amount of times it's happened and we dinnae win is gut wrenching. There's a will to win under butcher tho and that's what I want to see in my hibees.

Aldo
18-01-2014, 10:38 PM
Totally. The amount of times it's happened and we dinnae win is gut wrenching. There's a will to win under butcher tho and that's what I want to see in my hibees.

Yip. The LC game prime example. We were excellent for 30 mins then bang. Game over.

More resilient under Terry (not until after half 3 the day tho)

Inch Hibs
18-01-2014, 10:42 PM
Yip. The LC game prime example. We were excellent for 30 mins then bang. Game over.

More resilient under Terry (not until after half 3 the day tho)

Spot on mate.

Andy74
18-01-2014, 10:47 PM
Would we have brought two goals back after that first half performance under Fenlon? I think not. The fight and determination is there, once we bring in more quality we will see a far greater difference.

Bizarre. Anyway, no results haven't improved. They've got a wee bit worse.

cleanyman
18-01-2014, 10:53 PM
The football is ****ing awful

Seriously bad

Swedish hibee
18-01-2014, 10:54 PM
A no from me. Can't say I've enjoyed this season so far. My opinion that's all.

Inch Hibs
18-01-2014, 10:54 PM
Bizarre. Anyway, no results haven't improved. They've got a wee bit worse.

Peformances though? Team set up, shape?

We don't look completely clueless anymore.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
18-01-2014, 10:54 PM
I will judge TB when he has his own team/players. But yes, I feel we have got better and will continue to get better too.

Pretty Boy
18-01-2014, 10:55 PM
Slightly.

Which is about what I expected after 2 months.

Don't think the football we are playing is as bad as some claim either. It's not exactly Barcelona but it's not mindless hoofball either.

B.H.F.C
18-01-2014, 10:59 PM
Bizarre. Anyway, no results haven't improved. They've got a wee bit worse.

Have they? What was the win percentage Pat left with as opposed to Terry's?

Edit, just saw Pat's was 35.63%. I make Terry's 36.36 so certainly not got worse. Nothing to write home about in terms of how results are but things certainly feel more positive despite today.

McKenzie
18-01-2014, 11:23 PM
Bizarre. Anyway, no results haven't improved. They've got a wee bit worse.

If you can't see we are improving under TB then there is something seriously wrong. Okay the football isn't Barca-esque but we have tactics and a plan now. Explain to me what Fenlons was? Apart from defend and hope Sparky can magic up a goal from nowhere.

AL-Qaholik
18-01-2014, 11:46 PM
Not enough.

SaulGoodman
19-01-2014, 02:10 AM
The football is ****ing awful

Seriously bad

At least this hoofing generates some chances and excitement.

The hoofing under Fenlon usually went out of play. Or we passed it Barca style across Midfield before playing it back to goalie

RIP Bestie
19-01-2014, 03:37 AM
Give it a ****ing rest man will you, your constant backing of the now gone Fenlon is bordering on just downright ****ing weird creepy ****, I bet you were one of those stalker type waiting outside after every game just to wave at him when he left.
No need for for this. The guy is only giving an opinion. He is probably wrong regarding results being worse but there is not a lot in it. We all have our opinions but to attack someone's character like this just for stating his is shameful

Leishy1995
19-01-2014, 03:41 AM
After Sparky left Fenlon's main tactic was still to hope Sparky could create something from nothing and save the day. So yes, in my opinion.

steakbake
19-01-2014, 03:43 AM
Watching the first half, it was like watching a Fenlon team.

Watching the second, it was like watching a team playing that Fenlon just wouldn't have been able up organise.

No Hanlon, McGivern injured early doors and going a poor unlucky goal behind early on, the game plan was out the window.

Second half was much better but the damage had been done.

We need Heffernan fit and back because I'm certain he would have scored one today. The strikers look like they need to walk the ball into the net. Collins a very frustrating player to watch: 2 good goals but f*** me, he's nowhere near able to hold a ball, far less win a header in the 2nd third of the park.

Stevenson was good. Maybury gets too hard a time. Harris had some great moments but why on earth he let that ball go out, I'll never know. OTJ met his match today and Craig was a bit off the boil.

Still, there's a clear improvement. Today was a good and timely reminder that we're a long way from fixed yet.

Butcher is the man to make the changes - I would have no doubt that he'll get us there.

RIP Bestie
19-01-2014, 03:53 AM
Watching the first half, it was like watching a Fenlon team.

Watching the second, it was like watching a team playing that Fenlon just wouldn't have been able up organise.

No Hanlon, McGivern injured early doors and going a poor unlucky goal behind early on, the game plan was out the window.

Second half was much better but the damage had been done.

We need Heffernan fit and back because I'm certain he would have scored one today. The strikers look like they need to walk the ball into the net. Collins a very frustrating player to watch: 2 good goals but f*** me, he's nowhere near able to hold a ball, far less win a header in the 2nd third of the park.

Stevenson was good. Maybury gets too hard a time. Harris had some great moments but why on earth he let that ball go out, I'll never know. OTJ met his match today and Craig was a bit off the boil.

Still, there's a clear improvement. Today was a good and timely reminder that we're a long way from fixed yet.

Butcher is the man to make the changes - I would have no doubt that he'll get us there.
Who was this?

steakbake
19-01-2014, 04:00 AM
Who was this?

Sorry - Robertson

Just in from pub...

Beefster
19-01-2014, 06:04 AM
No need for for this. The guy is only giving an opinion. He is probably wrong regarding results being worse but there is not a lot in it. We all have our opinions but to attack someone's character like this just for stating his is shameful

I don't think it's the opinions that necessarily irritate people. It's the implied (alongside hypocritical and subtle) continual digs at the current manager.

I suspect Andy enjoys the attention he gets though.

The Falcon
19-01-2014, 07:25 AM
Would we have brought two goals back after that first half performance under Fenlon? I think not. The fight and determination is there, once we bring in more quality we will see a far greater difference.

Falkirk?

Mark1875
19-01-2014, 07:52 AM
Our ability to convert set pieces has improved.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

steakbake
19-01-2014, 08:28 AM
Falkirk?

A one-off and totally reliant on one special player (not that we would admit that at the time).

Speedway
19-01-2014, 08:54 AM
The confidence bubble burst at Tannadice. Butchers record is now W4 D4 L3 or in other words 1 defeat from abject mediocrity. We'll get that from Celtic next week.

Abject mediocrity is what Hibs have served up for much of its history and I expect more of the same.

HH81
19-01-2014, 09:04 AM
For the record I think we have - but only just. Give TB some time and I think he will do the business.

but.... We did get carried away a bit. Ross County games aside.

Scraped a win against the worst hearts side since the late seventies.

last 20 mins against dundee utd was as bad as anything under fenlon.

lost to Aberdeen with how many shots on goals - and ict beat them.

3 nil down against st mirren at home after 25 mins?

this isn't an anti-TB post - he is moving us forward.

its a post against us getting carried away after a few results - last 3 games has shown we still have a long way to go.

but we will get there!

You missed the very good 3-0 win v Killie.

Keith_M
19-01-2014, 09:05 AM
I think he's doing reasonably well with the hand he's been dealt. I liked the fact that he's talked up the players he has, to try to instil some confidence in them, but I also think he'll know by now their frailties. His comments about now knowing which players he needs to clear out were quite telling.

Yesterday demonstrated to me just how weak our squad is, lose two defenders and we're suddenly hopeless at the back.

matty_f
19-01-2014, 09:11 AM
I think it's harsh to judge on yesterday's performance given the defence had to be re-shuffled due to Hanlon being injured, then a few minutes in we had to change the defence again with Mcgivern going off.
That meant Harris coming on much earlier than we'd have wanted and we didn't adjust well enough so by the time we had sorted ourselves out we were 3 down.
Chuck in Cairney playing despite having the flu and the overall performance becomes a bit more understandable.
I thought it was a Fenlon-esque performance which isn't surprising as those were the players available to Fenlon for a large part of the season, give or take.
When everyone's fit, we look like a decent side, when we have a couple of key positions out, we're more than capable of a pish display like yesterday.

Onion
19-01-2014, 09:17 AM
The confidence bubble burst at Tannadice. Butchers record is now W4 D4 L3 or in other words 1 defeat from abject mediocrity. We'll get that from Celtic next week.

Abject mediocrity is what Hibs have served up for much of its history and I expect more of the same.

:agree: Agree with this. Many of the players have reverted to type, not helped by terrible team set up in the first half yesterday by TB.

allezsauzee
19-01-2014, 09:18 AM
Would we have brought two goals back after that first half performance under Fenlon? I think not. The fight and determination is there, once we bring in more quality we will see a far greater difference.

I assume you didn't watch the Scottish Cup semi final last year?

Bob Box Fish
19-01-2014, 10:54 AM
I like how we press opposition defenders further up the pitch to try and gain position back and intice mistakes.

Not keen on the Hoofball particularly from Nelson.

Still think we are far too soft as a team.

It is also promising that TB is giving youth a chance.

Still think Thomson is the best midfielder at the club and even bringing him on against dundee utd or Aberdeen in the latter part may have rewarded us with more points.

EskbankHibee
20-01-2014, 01:34 PM
I like how we press opposition defenders further up the pitch to try and gain position back and intice mistakes.

Not keen on the Hoofball particularly from Nelson.

Still think we are far too soft as a team.

It is also promising that TB is giving youth a chance.

Still think Thomson is the best midfielder at the club and even bringing him on against dundee utd or Aberdeen in the latter part may have rewarded us with more points.

This is exactly how it is. Well said!

Ronniekirk
20-01-2014, 02:25 PM
You missed the very good 3-0 win v Killie.
That was the performance that Fenlon couldn't of pulled out these same players and is what gives me grounds for optimism going forward along with how he has improved goals ratio from set pieces ,and looked to have settled back four that could play as a unit until the disruption on Saturday.

Andy74
20-01-2014, 02:44 PM
That was the performance that Fenlon couldn't of pulled out these same players and is what gives me grounds for optimism going forward along with how he has improved goals ratio from set pieces ,and looked to have settled back four that could play as a unit until the disruption on Saturday.

We managed to beat Killie away from home earlier in the season. At the end of last season we scored 4 and then 3 away from home against them.

If you are talking these exact same players they did beat that St Mirren team quite easily instead of being 3 down after 20 minutes. Away to St Johnstone was that type of performance too. I'm not sure why people keep using this type of statement?

SaulGoodman
20-01-2014, 02:56 PM
We managed to beat Killie away from home earlier in the season. At the end of last season we scored 4 and then 3 away from home against them.

If you are talking these exact same players they did beat that St Mirren team quite easily instead of being 3 down after 20 minutes. Away to St Johnstone was that type of performance too. I'm not sure why people keep using this type of statement?

We played some great football against St Mirren and St Johnstone under Fenlon. If we had played like that all the time he'd still be here.

Unfortunately he got beat twice by the current Hearts team, not forgetting Malmo. This saw Hibs fans get on his back, and rightly so imo.

If the tactics worked at the start of the game then it was great but if something went wrong we had no way to change it and I don't think Fenlon had the control of the dressing room to change things.

I think with a few signings we will genuinely be very good under Butcher because he had the knowledge of the Scottish game and can change things if we're going badly.

That's why Fenlon walked and Hibs fans seem to think we're doing better under Butcher so can we just drop this Fenlon pish already?

Andy74
20-01-2014, 03:00 PM
We played some great football against St Mirren and St Johnstone under Fenlon. If we had played like that all the time he'd still be here.

Unfortunately he got beat twice by the current Hearts team, not forgetting Malmo. This saw Hibs fans get on his back, and rightly so imo.

If the tactics worked at the start of the game then it was great but if something went wrong we had no way to change it and I don't think Fenlon had the control of the dressing room to change things.

I think with a few signings we will genuinely be very good under Butcher because he had the knowledge of the Scottish game and can change things if we're going badly.

That's why Fenlon walked and Hibs fans seem to think we're doing better under Butcher so can we just drop this Fenlon pish already?

The specific point I was responding to was specifically saying that Fenlon would not have been able to get that performance out of the players.

Is it just me that's not to mention Fenlon anymore because everyone else is referring to him every second post?

This thread is also a question - have we improved? Do you just want a series of yes answers underneath?

SaulGoodman
20-01-2014, 03:04 PM
The specific point I was responding to was specifically saying that Fenlon would not have been able to get that performance out of the players.

Is it just me that's not to mention Fenlon anymore because everyone else is referring to him every second post?

This thread is also a question - have we improved? Do you just want a series of yes answers underneath?

Eh? I thought I was being very fair of Fenlon there and always have been.

I don't think we've improved yet, but I think we have the potential to improve under Butcher and I didn't see that with Fenlon.

Ps, This is a thread about Fenlon so bash away, but you have been bringing him up a lot more than what must be healthy recently :wink: :greengrin

JimBHibees
20-01-2014, 03:06 PM
I think it's harsh to judge on yesterday's performance given the defence had to be re-shuffled due to Hanlon being injured, then a few minutes in we had to change the defence again with Mcgivern going off.
That meant Harris coming on much earlier than we'd have wanted and we didn't adjust well enough so by the time we had sorted ourselves out we were 3 down.
Chuck in Cairney playing despite having the flu and the overall performance becomes a bit more understandable.
I thought it was a Fenlon-esque performance which isn't surprising as those were the players available to Fenlon for a large part of the season, give or take.
When everyone's fit, we look like a decent side, when we have a couple of key positions out, we're more than capable of a pish display like yesterday.

Completely agree, we have a reasonable first team however have little squad depth as Saturday showed. I would be trying to bring in Meakings from ICT, a full back, winger and forward if possible.

ahibby
20-01-2014, 03:21 PM
I think we have improved even if it's not reflected in results, which perhaps is an oxymoron but never the less that's my opinion. I prefer the way we play now and I have more confidence in the new coaching staff and I believe the players have felt the same way from what I have read and seen. I can attribute the recent run of results to currently having a team in transition. I don't know about you but if four or more of my colleagues at work were told to sling their hook that might have an effect on me. My take on recent weeks is that TB tried to shore up the defence against Dundee Utd when we were two up. He brought on Tudor Jones, that didn't work and we lost two late goals. No surprise to lose a late goal against Aberdeen when you consider they were on a run of scoring late goals and the week before we lost two in the final ten minutes. Further we finished the game against Aberdeen with two eighteen year olds, one nineteen and one just turned twenty. That's away to the 2nd top team in the league. I'm not saying that's asking too much of them but to bring them on with fifteen to go against a team scoring late goals, well maybe that was asking for it. Saturdays result came about for three reasons as far as I can see. One is St Mirren are playing for SPFL survival so are hugely motivated. Hibs are in transition plus have injuries. The referee cheated and refused to acknowledge a stone wall penalty; I know he said he didn't see it but I've watched the replay over a few times and he was looking directly at the incident. We are in transition and have injuries. The players, some of them, must either be uncertain of their futures at Hibs or know deep down they won't be used much next season.

The Sea-gull
20-01-2014, 03:57 PM
I don't think it's the opinions that necessarily irritate people. It's the implied (alongside hypocritical and subtle) continual digs at the current manager.

I suspect Andy enjoys the attention he gets though.

Only Andy74 will be abel to confirm and speak for himself but I don't think he has a problem with the current manager as such, in fact I am sure I have read him being supportive of TB on occasion. I think he was always going to have a slight problem with whoever was in charge after Pat - nothing personal against whoever it was to be, I think he just believes that Pat did a good job and should still be in charge.

To be fair, some of us, and I include myself, have maybe got carried away with how much "progress" we have made under TB compared to Pat's time in charge this season as it is minimal and one or two would even say there hasn't been any or we have got a wee bit worse.

I'm just trying to take comfort from the fact that we have a manager with a decent track record at this level and lets see how he does once he has signed some players.

PeeJay
20-01-2014, 04:37 PM
Have we improved? The answer's seems obvious to me - Fenlon's gone and that in itself is an improvement. The team too has improved in certain aspects IMO; I was mighty impressed by the way we pressed Aberdeen - as a team - for the first 20 minutes and thoroughly controlled the game on their patch. I like one or two of the tweaks Butcher has done to the team, moving Stevenson away from the LB position is a good move, Foster is great going forward as is McGivern, but I'm not convinced of their ability yet to perform their defensive duties. Our defense is still too lacking in concentration levels and against St Mirren we again saw players who seemed "unsure" of what they were supposed to be doing.

Overall the willingness / ability to whip balls into the box from set pieces or from runs down the wing has improved markedly - although delivery is still poor at times. We have now the appearance of a team that actually works on things at East Mains, particularly set pieces and corners. However, we have little creativity up front, and the goal-scoring threat from our forwards is poor to say the least - this is a player problem, Butcher can't change that yet, I fear. He needs better players. Not keen on the long ball tactic, I'd prefer to see us play a passing game, with players running of the ball intelligently for each other, I'm not convinced that the core of our team is able to play that though, or if most of them are willing to put in the shifts on the training ground to gain the fitness levels required for it.

We are a long way from being a good team, but I would suggest we are improving and heading in a direction at last - we were going nowhere with Fenlon in charge. Fenlon got out of jail on a few occasions because of the magic of one man - Butcher doesn't have that luxury. I feel more confident with him at the helm, but only time will tell ...

Andy74
20-01-2014, 05:01 PM
I don't think it's the opinions that necessarily irritate people. It's the implied (alongside hypocritical and subtle) continual digs at the current manager.

I suspect Andy enjoys the attention he gets though.

I don't think you are reading or understanding correctly then. I've made clear directly to some of your posts in the past that I very much like Butcher and what he is trying to do.

My comments are clearly about some of the things I've been consistently told over the few months about what the team needed in terms of positions, tactics etc and now somew of the things I'm reading about huge improvements which I don't really agree with to the extent that is being proposed.

If I was digging at the current manager - why would that matter? I liked the last guy and had to read a lot worse. I'm sure everyone can cope.

It's strange when just having an opinion, albeit a minority one means I should be singled out for comment or questions asked about seeking attention. Trust me, it's a lot easier just to go along with the flow.

I'm not going to change my views or keep quiet about them just because it doesn't suit you or anyone else.

Hibrandenburg
20-01-2014, 05:10 PM
The confidence bubble burst at Tannadice. Butchers record is now W4 D4 L3 or in other words 1 defeat from abject mediocrity. We'll get that from Celtic next week.

Abject mediocrity is what Hibs have served up for much of its history and I expect more of the same.

I was given a virtual whipping for suggesting the same last year. A lot of ***** about needing to have higher expectations.

Hibrandenburg
20-01-2014, 05:12 PM
I don't think you are reading or understanding correctly then. I've made clear directly to some of your posts in the past that I very much like Butcher and what he is trying to do.

My comments are clearly about some of the things I've been consistently told over the few months about what the team needed in terms of positions, tactics etc and now somew of the things I'm reading about huge improvements which I don't really agree with to the extent that is being proposed.

If I was digging at the current manager - why would that matter? I liked the last guy and had to read a lot worse. I'm sure everyone can cope.

It's strange when just having an opinion, albeit a minority one means I should be singled out for comment or questions asked about seeking attention. Trust me, it's a lot easier just to go along with the flow.

I'm not going to change my views or keep quiet about them just because it doesn't suit you or anyone else.

:agree:

Keith_M
20-01-2014, 05:13 PM
The specific point I was responding to was specifically saying that Fenlon would not have been able to get that performance out of the players.

Is it just me that's not to mention Fenlon anymore because everyone else is referring to him every second post?

This thread is also a question - have we improved? Do you just want a series of yes answers underneath?


This is actually fair comment. Some people want to criticise Fenlon at every opportunity. I don't see why they can't just let it go.

I don't think Fenlon left us with as bad a squad as is now being made out. Yes, we're now short in significant areas (as demonstrated on Saturday, with Hanlon missing) but some players that we do have should really be taking a hard look at themselves, as they're capable of much more than they currently give.

Danderhall Hibs
20-01-2014, 05:17 PM
Butcher out Fenlon in.