Sportsound 6:10 pm 15/01/14 - Gaz & Deeks Q'S

[MWHIBBIES]

For Pat to be respectful of Hibs he would have removed himself from the club after the worst result on our history. Failing that he should have been respectful of the club and left after giving us our worst ever European humping.

I've no problem with what O'Connor said. It backs up my thoughts on Fenlon. He was clueless and a ***** manager. Just because GOC messed up his own career doesn't mean his thoughts on others in the game are any less valid.Never understood this, if he was clueless how did he get us to 2 cup finals, sign some very good players improving our first team significantly from when he took over and win so many trophies in Ireland? Doesn't seem like someone who is clueless to me.

[Stantons Angel]

The criticisms would be a lot easier to believe if they were being made by a player who hadn't turned his own career into a viewable car-crash.

Im sad to read this and to hear he said it on live radio too.

This is being said by a young man who Fenlon and Petrie supported to the hilt that season, They had his back during a very turbulent time and to blame the manager for the derby final defeat. Well?

I was there and if the players had put a bit of commitment into their play instead of huffing about bonuses and players not in the squad we may have fared better on that awful day!

As Garry says, he left for money, and it was a decision he himself took to leave, for a rather immature reason. Look where it has gotten him.

He was given another chance to play for the club we all love and worked hard to get fit enough to get his game going. Its a shame he has come out with this sort of thing.

As another poster has said any media training would have shown him how to avoid these sort of questions and the resultant answer.

ive always liked Garry and thought he had a rough ride through life. He comes over as a big daft laddie, and this sort of thing just shows im right.

The Hibs management have supported both of these young men and given them chances to shine in both their stints with Hibs. Their goals helped us stay in the league and win games that thrilled the supporters. talk like this endears them to no one.

Sorry but it had to be said!

[bingo70]

Funny how Griffiths raves about fenlon as a manager. I'd say Griffiths is an ambitious player that wants to improve and play at the highest level.

O'Connor is a waster that wanted to wind down his career fannying about while enjoying the footballers lifestyle.

Doesn't surprise me o'Connor doesn't like fenlon

[calumhibee1]

Funny how Griffiths raves about fenlon as a manager. I'd say Griffiths is an ambitious player that wants to improve and play at the highest level.

O'Connor is a waster that wanted to wind down his career fannying about while enjoying the footballers lifestyle.

Doesn't surprise me o'Connor doesn't like fenlon

Exactly. All players are going to have different opinions on managers, however we all know that Garry is a bit of a slavour. Some of what he says may be true, but I'd take it with a big pinch of salt.

[lucky]

GoC was terrible at the start that season then got himself fit then ballooned again and went off the rails. His behaviour after the game lets everyone see how much it meant to him. We all knew PF was trying but was always looking not to lose rather than win games. His signinging policy was quantity over quality. Yes he made mistakes in the cup final Kujabi, Claros were lost souls. But according to HIBS.NET FACT it was Craig Thomson who cost us that game because never sent off Black and gave a dodgey penalty.

The truth of that shambolic day is probably a mixture, team moral low due bonus rows, team prepared poorly, ref decisions not going our way. Players not really caring,

The bottom line is we got beat but they are paying a heavy price for the win.

[Ronniekirk]

GoC was terrible at the start that season then got himself fit then ballooned again and went off the rails. His behaviour after the game lets everyone see how much it meant to him. We all knew PF was trying but was always looking not to lose rather than win games. His signinging policy was quantity over quality. Yes he made mistakes in the cup final Kujabi, Claros were lost souls. But according to HIBS.NET FACT it was Craig Thomson who cost us that game because never sent off Black and gave a dodgey penalty.

The truth of that shambolic day is probably a mixture, team moral low due bonus rows, team prepared poorly, ref decisions not going our way. Players not really caring,

The bottom line is we got beat but they are paying a heavy price ,for the win.
Yes paying heavy price ,but the win will remain on the record books , as will the number of times they have won the Scottish Cup . The rules need to change to punish success bought by cheating ,as while in hibs supporters eyes it will always be a Tarnished win . the rest of Scottish football will soon forget the Romanov years .Rangers took there punishment reluctantly but as soon as mentioning taking away titles and cup wins was mentioned it was business as usual No Surrender and all that No one likes us we don't care attitude . Yep and they got away with it just like Hear7s have .on that front .How long they remain in there current plight ,and in what form they survive ,and in what league they play in next season ,is still to unfold

[Onion]

GoC was terrible at the start that season then got himself fit then ballooned again and went off the rails. His behaviour after the game lets everyone see how much it meant to him. We all knew PF was trying but was always looking not to lose rather than win games. His signinging policy was quantity over quality. Yes he made mistakes in the cup final Kujabi, Claros were lost souls. But according to HIBS.NET FACT it was Craig Thomson who cost us that game because never sent off Black and gave a dodgey penalty.

The truth of that shambolic day is probably a mixture, team moral low due bonus rows, team prepared poorly, ref decisions not going our way. Players not really caring,

The bottom line is we got beat but they are paying a heavy price for the win.

See no problem at all with GOC going public with this, or his credibility. Pat and GOC have moved on and it's little different to players/managers revealing all in their books. From a fans perspective, it's good to know what the squad's pre-match mood and behaviour was - even though it confirms much of what we suspected.

[Frogga]

I just can't believe he was offered a new contract. He was pretty awful by the end of that season.

[Kato]

Gary O criticising Pat F is a bit like Anne Widdecombe calling Nigela Lawson a fat ugly Heffer. In other words to be taken with a pinch of salt.

GO'C is the Shammy-leather's Shammy-leather. Once he starts talking it's for him to put a sock in it.

[hibeesjoe]

I think Garry's opinion would be far more credible if stack and Murray did come out and say something about it. It's doubtful they ever will though.

To me, Fenlon got to keep his post for far too long and should really have walked after the 5-1 pumping.

[Onion]

Yes paying heavy price ,but the win will remain on the record books , as will the number of times they have won the Scottish Cup . The rules need to change to punish success bought by cheating ,as while in hibs supporters eyes it will always be a Tarnished win . the rest of Scottish football will soon forget the Romanov years .Rangers took there punishment reluctantly but as soon as mentioning taking away titles and cup wins was mentioned it was business as usual No Surrender and all that No one likes us we don't care attitude . Yep and they got away with it just like Hear7s have .on that front .How long they remain in there current plight ,and in what form they survive ,and in what league they play in next season ,is still to unfold

Sadly have to agree, with one proviso. If the Yams don't agree the CVA and are forced into Liquidation, then the last few years results will always be associated with the excesses that killed the club. This period in their history will be all about "Who Killed Hearts ?" rather than 1-5.

[RickyS]

6
For starters garry played under colin calderwood so no chance pat was the worst.

This is just a personal dig because pat said he got rid of some bad pros. He also said he couldn't believe the lack of fight by people claiming to be hibs fans in that cup final.

Fair enough to respond but for now he needs to just get fit, keep his head down and be humble for a while. He s not really in a position to be pointing fingers of blame at the moment.

did he actually come out and say that?

[overdrive]

I think Garry's opinion would be far more credible if stack and Murray did come out and say something about it. It's doubtful they ever will though.

To me, Fenlon got to keep his post for far too long and should really have walked after the 5-1 pumping.

Stack confirmed the bonuses issue on Twitter last night

[oramhibee]

Anybody got a link to this, maybe, iPlayer radio?

[Golden Bear]

Funny how Griffiths raves about fenlon as a manager. I'd say Griffiths is an ambitious player that wants to improve and play at the highest level.

O'Connor is a waster that wanted to wind down his career fannying about while enjoying the footballers lifestyle.

Doesn't surprise me o'Connor doesn't like fenlon


Reading between the lines of a very recent post match TV interview with a couple of the current playing squad, it's patently obvious that Garry is not alone in his views of PF.

[James70]

Whilst Fenlon had many faults I always felt he was totally committed to the club unlike his predecessor whose mess he inherited.

Totally out of order that GOC should be going public about this now and I would be very interested to hear Fenlon's thoughts about O'Connor!

[Lucius Apuleius]

Is this the first interview O'Connor has done since the final? If not, why has he taken so long to dig this out? In my opinion, total lack of respect to HFC. Shows him for what he is. His actioons after the cup final says a hell of a lot more to me about him than anything he said last night.

[Weir7]

Stack confirmed the bonuses issue on Twitter last night

Stack confirmed what he wanted to confirm. Which from what I was told from players involved. He caused the problems. Also, did not want others in backroom and support roles ro get a very very modest slice of the pie, which others were keen they got.

Beacuse it would have ment he got a smaller share. He should have been kicked out the club their and then. It was the biggest game in our history. Nothing should have been allowed to de-rail the prep.

Sadly our club dont make big bold decisions. Apart from big eck pieing Latapy.

[calmacuk]

Anybody got a link to this, maybe, iPlayer radio?

It's available here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot

[Spike Mandela]

At the very least he should have acted like the top professionals and left the juicy bits for his autobiography. Schoolboy error.:devil:

[Bighoose]

Stack confirmed the bonuses issue on Twitter last night


I know its their job, but this was the biggest game in most, if not all, of their careers and they were arguing over bonuses?, ffs.

Jeez, win the game first, then you are in a position to complain.

Of all the disappointments that day, the lack of effort from some of the players is the one that still rankles me.

[Bostonhibby]

Wanted Fenlon out ultimately but on the few occasions I encountered him and because of what he said generally I am convinced he did his best and respected the club. I can't say the same about Garry, especially for his alleged behaviour just before during and after that final, on and off the pitch. Wasted talent as he was a great striker.

[Stevie Reid]

:top marks

I actually made a slight error - Caldwerwood's SPL loss ratio was a terrifying 55%

[Stevie Reid]

Reading between the lines of a very recent post match TV interview with a couple of the current playing squad, it's patently obvious that Garry is not alone in his views of PF.

If you're reading between the lines to see something, it's not really patently obvious is it?

[Golden Bear]

If you're reading between the lines to see something, it's not really patently obvious is it?

Yes it was - the players in question were being discreet.

[Treadstone]

I actually made a slight error - Caldwerwood's SPL loss ratio was a terrifying 55%

What was Fenlons ?

[Stevie Reid]

Yes it was - the players in question were being discreet.

If someone is being discreet then they're not making something patently obvious though are they? Garry O'Connor made things patently obvious last night - others may (and probably have) hinted that things weren't great under Fenlon, but they obviously felt that an implication was enough.

I have no trouble believing that certain players had a problem with Fenlon - but I also believe Leigh Griffiths when he gives Fenlon massive credit for rescuing his career. Whilst it makes for great press for Radio Scotland, I find O'Connor being so candid pretty classless.

[Stevie Reid]

What was Fenlons ?

42%

[Golden Bear]

If someone is being discreet then they're not making something patently obvious though are they? Garry O'Connor made things patently obvious last night - others may (and probably have) hinted that things weren't great under Fenlon, but they obviously felt than an implication was enough.

I have no trouble believing that certain players had a problem with Fenlon - but I also believe Leigh Griffiths when he gives Fenlon massive credit for rescuing his career. Whilst it makes for great coverage for Radio Scotland, I find O'Connor being so candid pretty classless.

The players were being discreet in their choice of words but it was patently obvious to the listener what they meant.

But for what it's worth, I agree with you in so far as there was absolutely no need for Garry O to come out with what he did.

I tell ye, it's all part of a conspiracy by BBC Sportsound to divert our attention from the current crisis at Tynie.

:wink:

[happiehibbie]

I thought Deek and Garry came over very well.

I have read loads of posts here saying he should not have said anything !

WE all knew there was issues but because of the closed shop situation we could only second guess

WE all questioned his tactics no PLAN B ETC

WE well Some of us wanted him out !

WE watched some of the worst performances EVER at ER

I could go on GARRY said what we all wanted to hear I know he made mistakes WE all have!

NOW we know for sure that Fenlon was a F n y I for one am not sorry he has gone. several people Agents and media have told me similar stories, a story will break when a current player leaves ER who is recovering at the moment!!

Morton with a chance of Deeks and Garry up front good luck to them

[Treadstone]

42%

Thanks, had it a touch higher myself but couldn't remember if my stats were up to date.

Two absolutely piss poor managers where stats can't disguise how mediocre the job was done.

[Stevie Reid]

The players were being discreet in their choice of words but it was patently obvious to the listener what they meant.

But for what it's worth, I agree with you in so far as there was absolutely no need for Garry O to come out with what he did.

I tell ye, it's all part of a conspiracy by BBC Sportsound to divert our attention from the current crisis at Tynie.

:wink:

:greengrin

[Keith_M]

First up, I'm no Fenlon defender. I struggled to work out during his whole reign at Easter Road just what his philosophy on football was and didn't get his tactics at all.

BUT.... Gary O'Connor talking about someone else being a failure!!

This is a guy who had the world at his feet and blew it spectacularly. Convicted of Class A drug use (while supposed to be a sportsman) and Insurance fraud. He's now 30 years old, which should be his peak, and where is he now? Morton.


Yes, go on about the good times when he was a Hibs player, and I enjoyed them as well, but let's face it, he's got a nerve.

[Bobby's Cinema]

pat fenlon's stats aren't all that bad - he has a better win ratio than yogi, mixu, miller and obviously calderwood (by a good 10%).

IMO, he steadied the ship, albeit with two truly horrific blips. he was never going to take us further than that, but he assembled a half-decent squad for terry to start off with. i don't think we ebbed as lowly with him as we did under calderwood performance wise (with two exceptions).

ultimately, i don't regret us having hired him as the stage has been set for butcher to truly sort us out. further more, he cared about hibs. calderwood, on the other hand, was never worthy to walk through the doors in the first place.

it's a shame that fenlon will always be remembered for those two games - but he will, and his record is severely compromised as a result. even that, however, doesn't make him worse than calderwood, who was a shambles of a manager, and a shambles of a man.
Can't agree with that. For the obvious reasons that you state

[Steven_Hibs]

a story will break when a current player leaves ER who is recovering at the moment!!


Clancy?

[Stevie Reid]

5-1 and 7-0 are two huge stains on the history of our club, of that there is no escape, and Fenlon was in charge for both - I think his legacy in terms of the squad left behind will actually be fine, but those results will forever shape how he is viewed.

I do find it rather interesting though how much he is being solely blamed for 5-1 by many on this thread, especially when the general consensus on any Hearts thread was that they were cheating by living beyond their means, with that final being the epitome. Craig Thomson is also rightly reviled for that game, confirming our worst fears with his performance and failing to send off Black, as well as awarding a penalty that never was, and altogether playing a huge part turning what would probably have been a comprehensive defeat into a humiliation.

Fenlon obviously has to shoulder some blame (as do the players, with O'Connor very much included) he should most definitely have taken Kujabi off at half time, and the midfield set up was appalling - as was the whole team performance that day. However, if Hearts played at anywhere near their best that day they were always going to win, such was the difference between the two squads - they were miles better than us, and the help of a cheating/massively incompetent (delete as appropriate) official made it the day from hell. The football Gods were smiling on Hearts that day, as they were through their whole run that season - I'll never forget the pain we suffered in that defeat, but the new context provided by Hearts' recent struggles is showing the true cost of it, and it does make it more bearable for me.

Felon deserves his share of the blame, but certainly not all of it.

[--------]

First up, I'm no Fenlon defender. I struggled to work out during his whole reign at Easter Road just what his philosophy on football was and didn't get his tactics at all.

BUT.... Gary O'Connor talking about someone else being a failure!!

This is a guy who had the world at his feet and blew it spectacularly. Convicted of Class A drug use (while supposed to be a sportsman) and Insurance fraud. He's now 30 years old, which should be his peak, and where is he now? Morton.


Yes, go on about the good times when he was a Hibs player, and I enjoyed them as well, but let's face it, he's got a nerve.


That's my opinion too.

IIRC O'Connor was given an opportunity to get his career back on track by Hibs after a lot of "personal problems" - personal problems mostly connected to Class A drugs, booze, and general irresponsibility.

He responded for a couple of months, then started messing about with the nose powder, and his form, which had been good initially, fell away to the point that there was no point naming hiome for a game. Fenlon came in while O'Connor was in the middle of this "personal crisis" - having been caught in possession of a serious amount of a serious drug, having totalled a £350,000 Ferrari, and having attempted to evade arrest on these charges and having lied to the police and the insurance company about who was driving the car when the big nasty tree went and hit it.

Of course, maybe this was just Big Gazza's way of welcoming his new boss and making him feel at home?

I mean, it's only Big Gazza - what's he like, after all? :rolleyes:

It was just a coincidence that that long period of "injury" ended with a conviction for possession.

Memo to Mr Petrie - next time you sign up a criminal crackhead make sure that you put an excruciatingly punitive non-disclosure clause in the contract so that even if the guy doesn't have any money, you can still remove his testicles and several other vital organs if he does what Big Gazza's done here.

BBC haven't had anything but good stories and courteous, well-planned interviews from ER since Tery and Mo arrived, so what do they do? They wheel out Big Gazza to piss on the parade? How much did they pay him? Whatever it was, they got their story.

At least Deek seems to have used a bit of common sense.

Get this - O'Connor played for Scotland age 18. he scored the added-time winner for Lokomotiv in the Russian Cup Final in 2007. (Pity he hadn't showed that sort of effort and commitment at Hampden in 2012.) Now he's on a four-month trial at Greenock Morton, aged 30, and surely now drinking in his last-chance saloon.

Suppose everything he said was true, it's still not his place to say it - surely a case of a brim-full chamberpot saying the kettle stinks.

Whatever the truth of this story is - and I'm not inclined to believe Big Gazza without a lot more corroboration than has been offered here - he isn't the one to be attacking anyone over their conduct regarding the 2012 Final.

Anyone who was there could see EXACTLY how much the game meant to him - the absolute square root of Foxtrot Alpha and not a grain more. He just couldn't wait to get the game over so he could meet his mates and go out clubbing.

I'd like to hear Ian Murray's account of the proceedings, because there's no way I'd credit O'Connor and Stack without proper corroboration. NO WAY.

[Makaveli]

The manager has to take the blame.

Look at Hearts FFS — some of their players hadn't been paid in months yet the club made new signings (i.e. Beattie) and Sergio still managed to make them all get along well enough to perform.

[LioNeilMessi]

I just can't believe he was offered a new contract. He was pretty awful by the end of that season.

:agree: Maybe Fenlon was the worst if he wanted to extend O'connor's stay given the state he was in.

[Stevie Reid]

The manager has to take the blame.

Look at Hearts FFS — some of their players hadn't been paid in months yet the club made new signings (i.e. Beattie) and Sergio still managed to make them all get along well enough to perform.

They had better players than us, and on much better wages. Their players went without wages that year from November to January (which still rendered it a mockery that they could sign the two players who won them that cup), but all the wages from Jan to the cup final were paid on time.

[Makaveli]

They had better players than us, and on much better wages. Their players went without wages that year from November to January (which still rendered it a mockery that they could sign the two players who won them that cup), but all the wages from Jan to the cup final were paid on time.

There were confirmed delays in March, a month after Beattie was signed.

Vlad announced that delay 48 hours before they played us, a game Beattie scored in. :rolleyes:

[--------]

The manager has to take the blame.

Look at Hearts FFS — some of their players hadn't been paid in months yet the club made new signings (i.e. Beattie) and Sergio still managed to make them all get along well enough to perform.


Sure - it was ALL Fenlon's fault - not one of the players on the park could have done more to salvage some pride out of that day.

And it was the support's fault - we showed a horrifying lack of fight that day.

Everybody's fault but the guys on the park who couldn't be bothered to shift their lazy fat backsides around the pitch but just lay down in the club's biggest game for years.

Please will someone reassure me that Big Gazza O'Connor was totally blameless in every way, or I won't be able to sleep tonight.

[happiehibbie]

clancy?

nope

[Stevie Reid]

There were confirmed delays in March, a month after Beattie was signed.

Vlad announced that delay 48 hours before they played us, a game Beattie scored in. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I should have said simply paid, as opposed to on time.

Regardless, they were in much better shape (on the field) than we were in every way - I would argue that trying to do your best with a disparate bunch of loanees of lower quality is much harder than motivating a bunch of high earning, better quality players, who knew exactly what they were getting into with Hearts (in terms of wage delays).

[Waxy]

The 5-1 game was just a perfect storm. They were paying massive wages with money they didn't have, and we had an awful squad. We shouldn't have got to the final.
Things are so different now and if we wallop them by a big score at tynie in march, i'll be happy at that for revenge. Might never see them again.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

That really is becoming a .net FACT on here.

Correct SH. It is annoying how often that fallacy is posted on here.

[The Sea-gull]

I'm torn on whether I think G O'C should have kept this quiet or not. On one hand, some things are better left unsaid but on the other I am fed up of football folk dodging questions all the time and sometimes it is good to get honest answers out of them live on the radio. I admire G O'C for telling it how it is. Just like I admire Michael Stewart for his honesty when he is on the radio.

I'm not a huge fan of presenter Kenny McIntyre but I do think he does a good job of producing radio that generates talking points such as this. Does anyone know why he seems to have an obsession with digging up muck about Hibs though? He seems to love to take every opportunity to talk about the whole John Collins - player revolt saga from 7 years ago, trying to get to the bottom of it. That was maybe relevant once when Michael Stewart was first a guest on the programme but it has been done to death.

He now seems to love stoking anything bad up against Fenlon. Has Fenlon or someone at Hibs ever done anything to put his nose out of joint?

Reading between the lines, I think there may be a few things about Fenlon's reign that people in football circles are aware of in full or in part but have not yet surfaced publically. Looks like guys like McIntyre are just trying to get them out there. Suppose it is his job in a way.

[Stonewall]

Stack confirmed what he wanted to confirm. Which from what I was told from players involved. He caused the problems. Also, did not want others in backroom and support roles ro get a very very modest slice of the pie, which others were keen they got.

Beacuse it would have ment he got a smaller share. He should have been kicked out the club their and then. It was the biggest game in our history. Nothing should have been allowed to de-rail the prep.

Sadly our club dont make big bold decisions. Apart from big eck pieing Latapy.

I was told that Stack was sitting on an unsigned contract, the offer of which was withdrawn on the Monday after the cup final.

[chrisski33]

That's my opinion too.

IIRC O'Connor was given an opportunity to get his career back on track by Hibs after a lot of "personal problems" - personal problems mostly connected to Class A drugs, booze, and general irresponsibility.

He responded for a couple of months, then started messing about with the nose powder, and his form, which had been good initially, fell away to the point that there was no point naming hiome for a game. Fenlon came in while O'Connor was in the middle of this "personal crisis" - having been caught in possession of a serious amount of a serious drug, having totalled a £350,000 Ferrari, and having attempted to evade arrest on these charges and having lied to the police and the insurance company about who was driving the car when the big nasty tree went and hit it.

Of course, maybe this was just Big Gazza's way of welcoming his new boss and making him feel at home?

I mean, it's only Big Gazza - what's he like, after all? :rolleyes:

It was just a coincidence that that long period of "injury" ended with a conviction for possession.

Memo to Mr Petrie - next time you sign up a criminal crackhead make sure that you put an excruciatingly punitive non-disclosure clause in the contract so that even if the guy doesn't have any money, you can still remove his testicles and several other vital organs if he does what Big Gazza's done here.

BBC haven't had anything but good stories and courteous, well-planned interviews from ER since Tery and Mo arrived, so what do they do? They wheel out Big Gazza to piss on the parade? How much did they pay him? Whatever it was, they got their story.

At least Deek seems to have used a bit of common sense.

Get this - O'Connor played for Scotland age 18. he scored the added-time winner for Lokomotiv in the Russian Cup Final in 2007. (Pity he hadn't showed that sort of effort and commitment at Hampden in 2012.) Now he's on a four-month trial at Greenock Morton, aged 30, and surely now drinking in his last-chance saloon.

Suppose everything he said was true, it's still not his place to say it - surely a case of a brim-full chamberpot saying the kettle stinks.

Whatever the truth of this story is - and I'm not inclined to believe Big Gazza without a lot more corroboration than has been offered here - he isn't the one to be attacking anyone over their conduct regarding the 2012 Final.

Anyone who was there could see EXACTLY how much the game meant to him - the absolute square root of Foxtrot Alpha and not a grain more. He just couldn't wait to get the game over so he could meet his mates and go out clubbing.

I'd like to hear Ian Murray's account of the proceedings, because there's no way I'd credit O'Connor and Stack without proper corroboration. NO WAY.

Spot on! Oconnor wasnt exactly a success when he went for his recent jaunt to russia either.

[The Sea-gull]

I think we are in danger of telling ourselves that the only reason we lost that final was because of Heart's financial wrong doings.

Yes they signed players they could not afford and yes they had a better squad than us but it is not as if we were up against their 05/06 which was packed full of good players, some real quality.

Their 11/12 team was ok but finished 5th in the league and never threatened a challenge for 3rd place that year. We should not have been as poor as we were that season and only ended up that way because the club had made a series of poor managerial appointments who had signed a series of poor players. Put it this way, had we gone for an SPL experienced type like Butcher instead of an inexperienced no-mark like Fenlon, who thinks we would have lost the final 5-1?

Pat Fenlon was a terrible choice of manager. I thought that all along and would have been "delighted to have been proved wrong". But I wasn't. We go back to where the blame should lie for the state of our club and we are back at the door of the people who appointed the manager. I actually believe we have now got the right man and if he turns us round I'll be the first to congratulate the board on a good appointment but it doesn't change the fact that the club has, on the park, not been run to potential for about 6 or 7 years now.

[--------]

I'm torn on whether I think G O'C should have kept this quiet or not. On one hand, some things are better left unsaid but on the other I am fed up of football folk dodging questions all the time and sometimes it is good to get honest answers out of them live on the radio. I admire G O'C for telling it how it is. Just like I admire Michael Stewart for his honesty when he is on the radio.

I'm not a huge fan of presenter Kenny McIntyre but I do think he does a good job of producing radio that generates talking points such as this. Does anyone know why he seems to have an obsession with digging up muck about Hibs though? He seems to love to take every opportunity to talk about the whole John Collins - player revolt saga from 7 years ago, trying to get to the bottom of it. That was maybe relevant once when Michael Stewart was first a guest on the programme but it has been done to death.

He now seems to love stoking anything bad up against Fenlon. Has Fenlon or someone at Hibs ever done anything to put his nose out of joint?

Reading between the lines, I think there may be a few things about Fenlon's reign that people in football circles are aware of in full or in part but have not yet surfaced publicly. Looks like guys like McIntyre are just trying to get them out there. Suppose it is his job in a way.


I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that McIntyre's a Jambo?

But yes, he does indulge in a lot of muck-raking over the past at ER, and he did keep on and on about the player revolt against Collins seven years ago. To be fair to Michael Stewart, HE seems to have moved on - in his last couple of appearances, in particular his appearance on the 'derby' Sportscene, he's been as fair and impartial as one could wish.

I do remember that as soon as Pat was appointed, BBC Scotland started a whinge about why Hibs had appointed a 'foreign' manager when there were so many good Scottish candidates around.

I think they were thinking of John Robertson and Davie Dodds, actually, who were usually involved in the discussion, which sheds an interesting light on the MacBEEB's idea of journalistic ethics.

And I might agree that McIntyre and his ilk are right to be digging the dirt on Pat Fenlon if the had been as enthusiastic and energetic in investigating the far bigger piles of crap around Tynecastle and Ibrox. There's a difference between muck-raking and investigative journalism, and the BBC failed miserably in its responsibility as a public watchdog in the Rangers and Romanov scandals.

But of course, Pat Fenlon and Hibs are softer targets than big bad businessmen like Murray, White, Green and Romanov.

Or maybe they just don't pay as much.

[--------]

Stack confirmed what he wanted to confirm. Which from what I was told from players involved. He caused the problems. Also, did not want others in backroom and support roles ro get a very very modest slice of the pie, which others were keen they got.

Beacuse it would have ment he got a smaller share. He should have been kicked out the club their and then. It was the biggest game in our history. Nothing should have been allowed to de-rail the prep.

Sadly our club dont make big bold decisions. Apart from big eck pieing Latapy.


Which is actually one case where a wee bit of leeway might have been justified.

Watching Marc Libbra playing when Russell had been sacked? Eck didn't need to throw him out the club permanently.

I wouldn't have hanged Heinrich Himmler if the only two witnesses against him had been Stack and O'Connor.

[GreenPJ]

Having just listened to it Fenlon has gone up in my estimations and GoC fallen to a very low level. The fact that Fenlon had to put up with that waste of space who was given lots of support by the club and manager and didn't repay in any way despite pretending to be a fan as well as a professional footballer is abysmal.

He was asked the question as to the worst manager, he could easily have said Fenlon and left it at didn't agree with tactics there was no need to expand beyond that not least the fact that Fenlon gets no right of reply.

[Barman Stanton]

I think people need to listen to the interview to get some context on this. They were asked the question, and GOC clearly hesitated before giving his opinions. The bit about the cup final lasted about 1 minute.

Fwiw, I'm glad he gave a bit more of an insight into what happened that day. Players arguing the evening before is shocking but not really surprising. At least it's onwards and upwards now.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

nope

James McPake?

[The Sea-gull]

I was told that Stack was sitting on an unsigned contract, the offer of which was withdrawn on the Monday after the cup final.

It makes sense. Remember at the time he claimed to have a contract offered for the following season which was withdrawn without explanation.

Could it be that Stack has kicked off after finding out that he wasn't entitled to as much in terms of bonuses as he thought he was going to be getting and was aggrieved as he felt, as he had been the first choice until his injury in the semi, that he was only not playing in the final due to injury.

Poor show from Stack if he kicked off in the hotel in cup final week. I understand why the club would not have discussed bonuses until quite late on that season as we were still fighting a relegation battle until the second last game of the season but as soon as that was done the bonuses should have been sorted, finalised and then on with cup final prep.

I don't see why professional players should need to know how much their bonus is ahead of a final. Why are they not just told that there will be a bonus per man for winning and advised of how much they are getting if they win it. The incentive should be winning the final itself and players should not need to know how much they are getting for winning as if a bigger bonus makes them try harder to win it.

[oramhibee]

Garry mentions that Aberdeen are "maybe the third best team in Scotland." Who is the second best?

[--------]

Garry mentions that Aberdeen are "maybe the third best team in Scotland." Who is the second best?


In his mind? Probably Celtic Reserves. :devil:

[The Sea-gull]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that McIntyre's a Jambo?

But yes, he does indulge in a lot of muck-raking over the past at ER, and he did keep on and on about the player revolt against Collins seven years ago. To be fair to Michael Stewart, HE seems to have moved on - in his last couple of appearances, in particular his appearance on the 'derby' Sportscene, he's been as fair and impartial as one could wish.

I do remember that as soon as Pat was appointed, BBC Scotland started a whinge about why Hibs had appointed a 'foreign' manager when there were so many good Scottish candidates around.

I think they were thinking of John Robertson and Davie Dodds, actually, who were usually involved in the discussion, which sheds an interesting light on the MacBEEB's idea of journalistic ethics.

And I might agree that McIntyre and his ilk are right to be digging the dirt on Pat Fenlon if the had been as enthusiastic and energetic in investigating the far bigger piles of crap around Tynecastle and Ibrox. There's a difference between muck-raking and investigative journalism, and the BBC failed miserably in its responsibility as a public watchdog in the Rangers and Romanov scandals.

But of course, Pat Fenlon and Hibs are softer targets than big bad businessmen like Murray, White, Green and Romanov.

Or maybe they just don't pay as much.

It is a kind of running joke on the programe that he is a Hun. Never admits to it but his colleagues on the panel try and squeeze it out of him sometimes and he dodges the question in the manner in which he does not want his guest to doge questions. He comes out with comments like "this programme is not about me, I'm just the presenter" which in a sense is a fair point. The fact that some people in the media in Scotland feel the need to keep the team they support private is a sad fact of Sottish society more than anything else.

[Stevie Reid]

I think we are in danger of telling ourselves that the only reason we lost that final was because of Heart's financial wrong doings.

Yes they signed players they could not afford and yes they had a better squad than us but it is not as if we were up against their 05/06 which was packed full of good players, some real quality.

Their team back then was good, and they faced a Hibs team missing many vital players, but we still lost that game by four goals. Our team that day should have fared better, just as the 2012 team should have, but with Zibbi in goals, we were ****ed: -

Malkowski, Whittaker, Gary Smith, Caldwell, Murphy, Sproule, Hogg, Thomson, Glass (Konte 62), Fletcher (McCluskey 82), Benjelloun (Konde 70).



Their 11/12 team was ok but finished 5th in the league and never threatened a challenge for 3rd place that year. We should not have been as poor as we were that season and only ended up that way because the club had made a series of poor managerial appointments who had signed a series of poor players. Put it this way, had we gone for an SPL experienced type like Butcher instead of an inexperienced no-mark like Fenlon, who thinks we would have lost the final 5-1?

There's not really any point speculating about that, another manager might not have got us to the final (though that would have been preferable). The general consensus on here before Fenlon's appointment was to stay well clear of older Scottish managers, IIRC.



Pat Fenlon was a terrible choice of manager. I thought that all along and would have been "delighted to have been proved wrong". But I wasn't. We go back to where the blame should lie for the state of our club and we are back at the door of the people who appointed the manager. I actually believe we have now got the right man and if he turns us round I'll be the first to congratulate the board on a good appointment but it doesn't change the fact that the club has, on the park, not been run to potential for about 6 or 7 years now.

I don't think Fenlon was a terrible choice of manager, though he ultimately he cartainly wasn't good enough. 5-1 and 7-0 will always define his era, but the stats that I've quoted throughout this thread highlight just how bad a situation he came into after Calderwood - who was a terrible choice.

[Seveno]

O'Connor has shown a total lack of respect for Hibs. Just when you think he couldn't sink any lower.

[Stonewall]

It makes sense. Remember at the time he claimed to have a contract offered for the following season which was withdrawn without explanation.

Could it be that Stack has kicked off after finding out that he wasn't entitled to as much in terms of bonuses as he thought he was going to be getting and was aggrieved as he felt, as he had been the first choice until his injury in the semi, that he was only not playing in the final due to injury.

Poor show from Stack if he kicked off in the hotel in cup final week. I understand why the club would not have discussed bonuses until quite late on that season as we were still fighting a relegation battle until the second last game of the season but as soon as that was done the bonuses should have been sorted, finalised and then on with cup final prep.

I don't see why professional players should need to know how much their bonus is ahead of a final. Why are they not just told that there will be a bonus per man for winning and advised of how much they are getting if they win it. The incentive should be winning the final itself and players should not need to know how much they are getting for winning as if a bigger bonus makes them try harder to win it.

The whole Cup Final debacle still makes my blood boil and if for no other reason than I had to sit through it I think I'm owed an explanation, so in answer to you previous post on balance I'm glad GOC said his bit. In general these things are better left unsaid though.

However;

Is he a reliable witness? - No.
Do Slack and GOC have agendas? - Quite possibly.
Do I agree with Doddie that some further corroberation is required? - Yes.

[TowerHibs]

Absolutely no doubt the players did not turn up on that day however the managers job is exactly that. To manage the players, to control their environment and temperament.

For years, we as a site, have been screaming that something wrong with the club and management. Now when we get a tit bit of information (from an ex player who has burned his bridges obviously and Stack has confirmed this) then some go mental and say GOC should keep his trap shut!!! strange!

What its worth, the bad items lasted roughly 1 minute of a 30 minute interview. Great hearing the guys talk about Mogga's team, truely was a great time watching the Hibs. Thought the journalists knew that he had 2 guys, not savy to batting questions away and took advantage. He prompted Gary and then went and prompted Deek to talk about not liking Strachan.

Garry has wasted his career, involved in drugs at anything in life and it messes you up. The guy is still entitled to an opinion though and not ever thing he says is bollocks because he used to do drugs.

Finally, i would agree with Derek (and Garham Speirs) that it is amazing he is struggling to find a club. SPL 3 record goal scorer and Derek put up a good fight against Speirs who said he had a downward spiral. He scored 13 goals in the 6 months he had at Hibs and then 19 from left midfield. He can definately do a job for us and any other SPL team. I find it a bit worrying that Rod told him to do one when he critisied the team. Only person who should have rule over players is the gaffer. Would Rod tell Butcher that he wont let Derek play for us (purely if Butcher wanted him of course)

[silverhibee]

James McPake?

Must be KT.

[The Sea-gull]

Must be KT.

That's who I thought of but then wasn't sure if the poster was reffering to a cup final 2012 story and KT wasn't here then. KT's story is possibly more likely to be about Butcher due to the rumours about them not getting on and it always seemed he got on ok with Fenlon.

I have heard rumours about KT leaking things to the press and I'm not talking just during his first spell. When/if he leaves he is a prime candidate to be a guest on Sportsound Extra or a midweek programme. Get the impresion he'd be a fairly candid speaker and wouldn't shy away from stuff. The fact that he has been at Hibs for a wee while now has probably prevented him from adding his 10 cents worth in case he breaches his contract.

[Golden Bear]

That's who I thought of but then wasn't sure if the poster was reffering to a cup final 2012 story and KT wasn't here then. KT's story is possibly more likely to be about Butcher due to the rumours about them not getting on and it always seemed he got on ok with Fenlon.

I have heard rumours about KT leaking things to the press and I'm not talking just during his first spell. When/if he leaves he is a prime candidate to be a guest on Sportsound Extra or a midweek programme. Get the impresion he'd be a fairly candid speaker and wouldn't shy away from stuff. The fact that he has been at Hibs for a wee while now has probably prevented him from adding his 10 cents worth in case he breaches his contract.


I can't say I've ever heard KT being interviewed either on the TV or the radio.

[The Sea-gull]

Absolutely no doubt the players did not turn up on that day however the managers job is exactly that. To manage the players, to control their environment and temperament.

For years, we as a site, have been screaming that something wrong with the club and management. Now when we get a tit bit of information (from an ex player who has burned his bridges obviously and Stack has confirmed this) then some go mental and say GOC should keep his trap shut!!! strange!

What its worth, the bad items lasted roughly 1 minute of a 30 minute interview. Great hearing the guys talk about Mogga's team, truely was a great time watching the Hibs. Thought the journalists knew that he had 2 guys, not savy to batting questions away and took advantage. He prompted Gary and then went and prompted Deek to talk about not liking Strachan.

Garry has wasted his career, involved in drugs at anything in life and it messes you up. The guy is still entitled to an opinion though and not ever thing he says is bollocks because he used to do drugs.

Finally, i would agree with Derek (and Garham Speirs) that it is amazing he is struggling to find a club. SPL 3 record goal scorer and Derek put up a good fight against Speirs who said he had a downward spiral. He scored 13 goals in the 6 months he had at Hibs and then 19 from left midfield. He can definately do a job for us and any other SPL team. I find it a bit worrying that Rod told him to do one when he critisied the team. Only person who should have rule over players is the gaffer. Would Rod tell Butcher that he wont let Derek play for us (purely if Butcher wanted him of course)

Good post. Bit in bold - it was because it was a slight at Pat Fenlon and there are still a few folk who for whatever reason (perhaps feeling a bit embarrassed about publically and vehemently backing a failure) will not hear a bad word said about him.

[The Sea-gull]

I can't say I've ever heard KT being interviewed either on the TV or the radio.

I've heard him a few times. Honest and articulate. He has done a couple of decent newspaper interviews too.

[--------]

Good post. Bit in bold - it was because it was a slight at Pat Fenlon and there are still a few folk who for whatever reason (perhaps feeling a bit embarrassed about publically and vehemently backing a failure) will not hear a bad word said about him.


No - it's because this was a public attack with Pat being given no opportunity to defend himself, made by someone who is in no position to criticise anyone else's professionalism or integrity.

It's not a 'slight' to say that someone's the worst manager you've ever worked with - it's an outright attack on the person's character and competence.

And Garry O'Connor is, of course, a paragon of professionalism, good character, and integrity?

For a player who promised so much, he's achieved remarkably little in the dozen or so years he's 'graced' the game of football. And he was just as guilty as anyone else of letting the fans down that day at Hampden.

Read the posts.

[Stevie Reid]

Good post. Bit in bold - it was because it was a slight at Pat Fenlon and there are still a few folk who for whatever reason (perhaps feeling a bit embarrassed about publically and vehemently backing a failure) will not hear a bad word said about him.

Why should any Hibs fan ever feel embarrassed about backing a Hibs manager?

[s.a.m]

No - it's because this was a public attack with Pat being given no opportunity to defend himself, made by someone who is in no position to criticise anyone else's professionalism or integrity.

It's not a 'slight' to say that someone's the worst manager you've ever worked with - it's an outright attack on the person's character and competence.

And Garry O'Connor is, of course, a paragon of professionalism, good character, and integrity?

For a player who promised so much, he's achieved remarkably little in the dozen or so years he's 'graced' the game of football. And he was just as guilty as anyone else of letting the fans down that day at Hampden.

Read the posts.

Quite. Well put.

[The Sea-gull]

Why should any Hibs fan ever feel embarrassed about backing a Hibs manager?

Nobody should feel embarrassed about backing a manager while he is in post but the way in which some continue to back him after it is clear that, overall, he failed is embarrassing.

[Andy74]

Good post. Bit in bold - it was because it was a slight at Pat Fenlon and there are still a few folk who for whatever reason (perhaps feeling a bit embarrassed about publically and vehemently backing a failure) will not hear a bad word said about him.

Not really. Stuff like this should illustrate just what our club was like and credit should actually go to Fenlon for sorting that out. Laying the blame for this type of thing on him is so well wide of the mark its ridiculous.

Stick to the style and tactics debate for Fenlon. Better ground to criticise on.

[Andy74]

Nobody should feel embarrassed about backing a manager while he is in post but the way in which some continue to back him after it is clear that, overall, he failed is embarrassing.

I'm not embarrassed in the slightest. A few on this thread should be though.

[The Sea-gull]

No - it's because this was a public attack with Pat being given no opportunity to defend himself, made by someone who is in no position to criticise anyone else's professionalism or integrity.

It's not a 'slight' to say that someone's the worst manager you've ever worked with - it's an outright attack on the person's character and competence.

And Garry O'Connor is, of course, a paragon of professionalism, good character, and integrity?

For a player who promised so much, he's achieved remarkably little in the dozen or so years he's 'graced' the game of football. And he was just as guilty as anyone else of letting the fans down that day at Hampden.

Read the posts.

It's not a public attack. It is an honest answer to a question. Pat could reply any time he wants. I'm sure the media would give him air time.

Just coz G O'C wasn't always the model professional does not mean he is not entitled to answer a question about who he thought was the worst manager he worked with was.

I doubt O'Connor would get too worked up if a manager said he was the most difficult/troublesome player they had ever worked with and judging by reports there may be one or two who would say this.

[The Sea-gull]

Not really. Stuff like this should illustrate just what our club was like and credit should actually go to Fenlon for sorting that out. Laying the blame for this type of thing on him is so well wide of the mark its ridiculous.

Stick to the style and tactics debate for Fenlon. Better ground to criticise on.

Tactics, style and general management. History shows that overall he was a bad appointment and his tenure cannot be viewed as an overall success.

[SanFranHibs]

I think people need to listen to the interview to get some context on this. They were asked the question, and GOC clearly hesitated before giving his opinions. The bit about the cup final lasted about 1 minute.

Fwiw, I'm glad he gave a bit more of an insight into what happened that day. Players arguing the evening before is shocking but not really surprising. At least it's onwards and upwards now.

They were asked a 'loaded' question...."Who is the worst manager you have played under?". Not a very respectful question. Riordan was quick and smart..."One of those Chinese managers". Maybe O'Connor should have followed him blandly and said "one of those Russian managers." We could have all chuckled and thought, ' well that question was a waste of time'. O'Connor chose to be honest !!!

Was it the smartest thing to say? No. But did he mean to be disrespectful? I don't think so.

And respect goes both ways. This club including In Rod We Trust have not always been the most respectful. and fans saying the criminal crackhead was disrespectful, well that is really showing respect.

Ask Sauzee how respectful he feels Hibs were to him.

As Keane might and I say might concur, at least O'Connor was not doing it to sell a few copies of his memoirs.

[Steve20]

O'Connor was asked a question and he answered it and gave reasons why he thought that. There's nothing wrong with that.

Fenlon was a terrible manager for us. I can't believe anyone honestly thinks otherwise.

[GreenPJ]

Tactics, style and general management. History shows that overall he was a bad appointment and his tenure cannot be viewed as an overall success.

History records (i.e. results) does not reflect what Fenlon had to put up with when he first arrived and the changes that had to be made. I don't deny it was time for a change but he left us in a better position than he found us.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm not embarrassed in the slightest. A few on this thread should be though.

During Fenlons tenure, i was embarrassed far too many times with HIS teams performances and results.

[The Sea-gull]

History records (i.e. results) does not reflect what Fenlon had to put up with when he first arrived and the changes that had to be made. I don't deny it was time for a change but he left us in a better position than he found us.

There is no denying that but find that a little like saying "I had a leak in my roof. I got someone in to fix it and it doesn't let in half as much water now".

[Elephant Stone]

History records (i.e. results) does not reflect what Fenlon had to put up with when he first arrived and the changes that had to be made. I don't deny it was time for a change but he left us in a better position than he found us.

There is no denying that but find that a little like saying "I had a leak in my roof. I got someone in to fix it and it doesn't let in half as much water now".

Calderwood's last game:



Stack
02 Hart
04 Hanlon
05 O'Hanlon
20 Stephens
07 Wotherspoon
11 Galbraith
16 Stevenson
17 Sproule
24 Osbourne
09 O'Connor


With the excellent Junior Agogo, Richie Towell and Martin Scott on the bench, Matt Thornhill was injured.

If the leak in your story is synonymous with the squad Fenlon inherited then that "someone" you got to fix it must have done a fair old job if you haven't drowned.

[--------]

It's not a public attack. It is an honest answer to a question. Pat could reply any time he wants. I'm sure the media would give him air time.

Just coz G O'C wasn't always the model professional does not mean he is not entitled to answer a question about who he thought was the worst manager he worked with was.

I doubt O'Connor would get too worked up if a manager said he was the most difficult/troublesome player they had ever worked with and judging by reports there may be one or two who would say this.


I'm sorry? A radio broadcast at ten past six on a weekday evening isn't a public attack? Nor are you or I able to judge the degree of O'Connor's honesty in what he said. He may have been frank in his answer, but whether he was telling the truth is another matter entirely.

And how exactly does he defend himself? Demand equal air-time? Sue the BBC? Sue O'Connor? Give McIntyre and his Jambo-loving pals at McBEEB the gift of yet more controversy regarding the team they love to put down?

Wasn't always the model professional? I suppose that's one way of putting it. If you were as easy-going about Fenlon's shortcomings as you are about Big Gazza's we wouldn't be having this argument. But it's one law for Fenlon, and no law at all for Big Gazza?

As a known drug-user O'Connor should have had a clause in his contract obliging him to have blood and urine samples taken weekly, to make sure he was clean and to protect the club in the event of continuing drug use coming to the attention of the authorities. As soon as his renewed involvement with drugs came to light (around the time Fenlon arrived) O'Connor should have been sacked. A sensible contract would have had a clause in it allowing for this.

As for Stack, IIRC there was a period towards the end of his time at ER when he was turning out on matchdays unshaven and with the arms of his shirt cut off. That's not professional behaviour and it should have been made clear to him that while it was his personal business whether he shaved or not, he was a member of the Hibs team and respect for the club meant he didn't turn out looking as if he's spent the night sleeping it off in one of the Cowgate closes.

I would imagine that most if not ALL of the managers who've had the privilege of meeting and working with O'Connor would say he was "the most difficult/troublesome player they had ever worked with" - if they've worked with worse, then they have my utmost sympathy.

Anyhow - it's perfectly clear to me that Pat Fenlon took on a lot more than he could manage when he came to Hibs, and I'm convinced he did the right thing in leaving.

But for O'Connor to bad-mouth him in public is out of order. O'Connor needs to sort himself out before he starts criticising anyone else.

[MrRobot]

Fenlons tactics could have got us relegated; O'Connors goals kept us in the league.

I liked Fenlon as a person, he seemed to care about the club but ultimately wasnt good enough.
For all his faults, O'Connor is a decent person and a good player. Scored crucial goals when unfit and helped keep us in the SPL. He answered a question which I don't think is a bad thing. He didnt like Fenlon as a manager, don't see the big deal.

[Bostonhibby]

[QUOTE=The Sea-gull;3872692]

Calderwood's last game:



Stack
02 Hart
04 Hanlon
05 O'Hanlon
20 Stephens
07 Wotherspoon
11 Galbraith
16 Stevenson
17 Sproule
24 Osbourne
09 O'Connor


With the excellent Junior Agogo, Richie Towell and Martin Scott on the bench, Matt Thornhill was injured.

If the leak in your story is synonymous with the squad Fenlon inherited then that "someone" you got to fix it must have done a fair old job if you haven't drowned.

Jeez, some real dross there, what did one team do to deserve them all assembled together in the same colours - Christ look at the bench, and how would we be able to tell if Thornhill was injured or fit?

Just further cements Calderwoods position as the worst Hibs manager in my time. I am starting to wonder if his magic is beginning to take effect at Norwich.

[dp00]

Not how I recall events - the team went back to Easter Road and Pat himself was tearful and shell shocked. Some stayed for pleasantries and a drink however it was not a 'party' - some players didn't go to ER and some decided to go up town and got turfed out of 2 pubs in the George Street area at around 9pm-ish. Grand Cru being the first one I think. The manager asked them to leave (players) due to the players being wound up by punters and retaliating verbally and creating friction in the place. They kept on boozing elsewhere. That's what I recall.

I then recall spending a very nice long weekend down south with a rather attractive lady and not having to witness the parade :aok: I was over the final by 4pm next day :greengrin

In regards to the party I was told by someone who was there that fenlon was in tears and just kept apologising, sproule was another one they said looked gutted and was saying sorry..

Garry on other hand was laugthing and joking and was begging one of the female directors for a contract

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

[TowerHibs]

I'm sorry? A radio broadcast at ten past six on a weekday evening isn't a public attack? Nor are you or I able to judge the degree of O'Connor's honesty in what he said. He may have been frank in his answer, but whether he was telling the truth is another matter entirely.

And how exactly does he defend himself? Demand equal air-time? Sue the BBC? Sue O'Connor? Give McIntyre and his Jambo-loving pals at McBEEB the gift of yet more controversy regarding the team they love to put down?

Wasn't always the model professional? I suppose that's one way of putting it. If you were as easy-going about Fenlon's shortcomings as you are about Big Gazza's we wouldn't be having this argument. But it's one law for Fenlon, and no law at all for Big Gazza?

As a known drug-user O'Connor should have had a clause in his contract obliging him to have blood and urine samples taken weekly, to make sure he was clean and to protect the club in the event of continuing drug use coming to the attention of the authorities. As soon as his renewed involvement with drugs came to light (around the time Fenlon arrived) O'Connor should have been sacked. A sensible contract would have had a clause in it allowing for this.

As for Stack, IIRC there was a period towards the end of his time at ER when he was turning out on matchdays unshaven and with the arms of his shirt cut off. That's not professional behaviour and it should have been made clear to him that while it was his personal business whether he shaved or not, he was a member of the Hibs team and respect for the club meant he didn't turn out looking as if he's spent the night sleeping it off in one of the Cowgate closes.

I would imagine that most if not ALL of the managers who've had the privilege of meeting and working with O'Connor would say he was "the most difficult/troublesome player they had ever worked with" - if they've worked with worse, then they have my utmost sympathy.

Anyhow - it's perfectly clear to me that Pat Fenlon took on a lot more than he could manage when he came to Hibs, and I'm convinced he did the right thing in leaving.

But for O'Connor to bad-mouth him in public is out of order. O'Connor needs to sort himself out before he starts criticising anyone else.
Lol classic.....unshaven and sleaves cut is now unprofessional. They are not sitting in the cabinet. It's no the 1950s!

What a laugh!

"Here Pirlo, Hartley, pique, tim Howard call yourselves professional, get in there and give yersel a shave"

"And u pair of clowns barthez and buffon, call cutting Ur sleaves professional"

How I long for clean shaven smart footballers back in the day, a lot of whom owned boozers and loved a proper bevy.

Silly points

[SanFranHibs]

QUOTE=Doddie;3872719]I'm sorry? A radio broadcast at ten past six on a weekday evening isn't a public attack? Nor are you or I able to judge the degree of O'Connor's honesty in what he said. He may have been frank in his answer, but whether he was telling the truth is another matter entirely.

And how exactly does he defend himself? Demand equal air-time? Sue the BBC? Sue O'Connor? Give McIntyre and his Jambo-loving pals at McBEEB the gift of yet more controversy regarding the team they love to put down?

Wasn't always the model professional? I suppose that's one way of putting it. If you were as easy-going about Fenlon's shortcomings as you are about Big Gazza's we wouldn't be having this argument. But it's one law for Fenlon, and no law at all for Big Gazza?

As a known drug-user O'Connor should have had a clause in his contract obliging him to have blood and urine samples taken weekly, to make sure he was clean and to protect the club in the event of continuing drug use coming to the attention of the authorities. As soon as his renewed involvement with drugs came to light (around the time Fenlon arrived) O'Connor should have been sacked. A sensible contract would have had a clause in it allowing for this.

As for Stack, IIRC there was a period towards the end of his time at ER when he was turning out on matchdays unshaven and with the arms of his shirt cut off. That's not professional behaviour and it should have been made clear to him that while it was his personal business whether he shaved or not, he was a member of the Hibs team and respect for the club meant he didn't turn out looking as if he's spent the night sleeping it off in one of the Cowgate closes.

I would imagine that most if not ALL of the managers who've had the privilege of meeting and working with O'Connor would say he was "the most difficult/troublesome player they had ever worked with" - if they've worked with worse, then they have my utmost sympathy.

Anyhow - it's perfectly clear to me that Pat Fenlon took on a lot more than he could manage when he came to Hibs, and I'm convinced he did the right thing in leaving.

But for O'Connor to bad-mouth him in public is out of order. O'Connor needs to sort himself out before he starts criticising anyone else.[/QUOTE]

If someone asks me "who do you think is the worst manager you have seen at Hibs?" and I respond Fenlon, or Calderwood or Yogi or Turnbull (does not matter who) I am not attacking that person. I am just answering the question as honestly as I can.

And now we have jumped to Stack looking unkempt. Well, I am glad that long haired, unshaven George Best is still not around. I would be having a word or two with him. Is the bleached hair more to your liking or is that not professional?

And I am most definitely NOT a Fenlon hater. Why would I be? Do I think he tried to do well for Hibs? I certainly do. Do I think he was not good enough? I certainly do think that. Not an 'attack'. Just my opinion.

If this interview was to be an issue I would like to know more about Petries declining Riordans offer to play for free becasue he criticised the team. If that is true then I hope he does not bar any fan who dares to criticise the team. Easter Road will be mighty spasre at game times.

And it seems to me that O'Connor is doing his best at this moment to sort himself out.

[NAE NOOKIE]

G'OC Was asked a question and I presume answered it as honestly as he could. Whether he was right or wrong to do that is a matter of opinion. Gary might have to a large extent wasted his career ... but for sure if anybody has paid the price its Gary himself, what would his earnings have been up to now if he had fully lived up to his potential.

Its time IMO to draw a line under the 2012 cup final. As others have said there were a number of factors which contributed to the disaster which took place:

The Yams financial cheating, without which the probably wouldnt even have been in the final.
A referee who would have a job, given the available evidence, convincing a jury that he was not giving favour to the Yams on the day.
A Hibs manager who was out of his depth.
A set of Hibs players who's lack of effort, talent and worse of all commitment on the day was frankly staggering ... with the odd exception.
And now it appears a set of directors who failed to sort out the basics until the day before the final.

But ....... its in the past, it cant be changed and its time to move on .... apart from never to forget the lessons that day taught us.

Finally:

Theres a debate going on regarding who was the worse Hibs manager Calderwood or Fenlon. For all his faults and shortcomings as a manager and some terrible results which have dented the history of the club at least Pat Fenlon was genuinely doing his best. Calderwood disrespected Hibs as a football club and us as supporters and as far as I'm concerned that makes it a no contest.

[truehibernian]

Lol classic.....unshaven and sleaves cut is now unprofessional. They are not sitting in the cabinet. It's no the 1950s!

What a laugh!

"Here Pirlo, Hartley, pique, tim Howard call yourselves professional, get in there and give yersel a shave"

"And u pair of clowns barthez and buffon, call cutting Ur sleaves professional"

How I long for clean shaven smart footballers back in the day, a lot of whom owned boozers and loved a proper bevy.

Silly points

He smoked, he drank,he got lifted, he was a clown and he thought the 'huddle' and running about naked at training for the cameras was the way forward in football - not silly points, just facts. Hibs are well rid of that 'comedian' !

There's good reason he's at Barnet and has had more clubs than Tiger.

[Hermit Crab]

This is a classic thread. Keep it up lads.

[truehibernian]

This is a classic thread. Keep it up lads.

It is indeed - makes me even more delighted we have an experienced manager and coaching team and indeed players who if they don't value the shirt and performance will be emptied.

GOC answered a question - he should have taken the lead of Deek and been coy and taken the fifth - the bonus chat is food for media but should have stayed in-house in my opinion. What it shows is Hearts won the cup despite not being paid, Hibs argued about bonuses that were never there to begin with. Thankfully certain players are the hell out of dodge !

[Jonnyboy]

Stack confirmed what he wanted to confirm. Which from what I was told from players involved. He caused the problems. Also, did not want others in backroom and support roles ro get a very very modest slice of the pie, which others were keen they got.

Beacuse it would have ment he got a smaller share. He should have been kicked out the club their and then. It was the biggest game in our history. Nothing should have been allowed to de-rail the prep.

Sadly our club dont make big bold decisions. Apart from big eck pieing Latapy.

This kinda back's up what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Stack mouthing off should come as no surprise to anyone. Murray probably tried to shut him up.

As for GOC the laddie has dragged the name of Hibernian into the gutter with this episode. He doesn't deserve the support he's getting from some in this thread.

As was said earlier, Petrie welcomed him back into the fold and IIRC correctly was teary eyed in doing so. He wanted to help get the guy back on track but if GOC had any sense of loyalty he wouldn't have made the statements he did. IMO he wasn't just attacking Fenlon, he was damaging the club by attracting such negative publicity

[Northernhibee]

This kinda back's up what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Stack mouthing off should come as no surprise to anyone. Murray probably tried to shut him up.

As for GOC the laddie has dragged the name of Hibernian into the gutter with this episode. He doesn't deserve the support he's getting from some in this thread.

As was said earlier, Petrie welcomed him back into the fold and IIRC correctly was teary eyed in doing so. He wanted to help get the guy back on track but if GOC had any sense of loyalty he wouldn't have made the statements he did. IMO he wasn't just attacking Fenlon, he was damaging the club by attracting such negative publicity

Yep, he's blown the slim chance he had of ever playing for us again.

[Kato]

As for GOC the laddie has dragged the name of Hibernian into the gutter with this episode. He doesn't deserve the support he's getting from some in this thread.

As was said earlier, Petrie welcomed him back into the fold and IIRC correctly was teary eyed in doing so. He wanted to help get the guy back on track but if GOC had any sense of loyalty he wouldn't have made the statements he did. IMO he wasn't just attacking Fenlon, he was damaging the club by attracting such negative publicity


Exactly. Unprofessional.

[Billy Whizz]

Exactly. Unprofessional.

What happens in the changing room, stays in the changing room, is the golden rule for everyone who plays in team sports!

[Pedantic_Hibee]

I'm no fan of Fenlon but I'd rather have him at my club than GoC.

[GreenArmyyy!]

To me it comes down to the tale of two professionals. O'Connor who has been up on several drug charges, a general poor attitude, has also been caught on camera laughing and joking on video after that day. Then you have Leigh Griffiths who isn't perfect but is a fantastic professional who always wants the best and gave his best for our club. Out of O'Connors and Griffiths opinion on Fenlon I know who I believe.

[--------]

I'm no fan of Fenlon but I'd rather have him at my club than GoC.



Well, at least there would be less chance of him selling the under-21s crack cocaine .... :devil:

Trying to be rational about Pat Fenlon, the least one can say for him is that Terry Butcher inherited a much more stable and sensible squad than he inherited from Calderwood. Butcher has been able to actually put a reasonably sensible team out each week - how on earth could anyone send out a sensible team with the players Calderwood lefty behind him?

Unlike Calderwood, Pat Fenlon is a decent man who gave the job 100%, and if he didn't measure up to it, he still doesn't deserve the vitriolic abuse some folks on here like to hand him out.

BUT - the team was stagnating, the football was far from attractive, and there was no sign of a corner having been turned in the fortunes of the club. In other words, same old, same old. So it was time for him to go.

Thinking back to when he arrived, however, one might recall that one of the problems besetting the team was the absence of our star Scotland international centre-forward, allegedly the victim of a stubborn and lingering injury, but also appearing regularly in the police columns of the national press in connection with various offences already detailed above.

Whatever the failings of Pat Fenlon, that centre-forward isn't the person to go on BBC Scotland to criticise him and bad-mouth him the way O'Connor has.

And another problem was that there were major problems in the dressing-room and first-team squad, a lack of discipline, a lack of respect for the club and its fans, and no sense that anything was ever going to change. O'Connor's drugs and fraud problems were one major symptom of those problems; Stack turning out looking like an unwashed jakey from the Cowgate was another. There are such things as professional standards, and I object strongly to Stack's disrespect for the club and the supporters. Most of us over the years would have paid good money to have the privilege of pulling on that jersey, and better men that Stack have worn it with pride.

If there was a major rumpus about money in the team hotel pre-Cup Final in 2012, it doesn't surprise me that Stack might have been at the heart of it.

As Jonnyboy says: "This kinda backs up what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Stack mouthing off should come as no surprise to anyone. Murray probably tried to shut him up. As for GOC the laddie has dragged the name of Hibernian into the gutter with this episode. He doesn't deserve the support he's getting from some in this thread. As was said earlier, petrie welcomed him back into the fold and IIRC correctly was teary eyed in doing so. He wanted to help get the guy back on track but if GOC had any sense of loyalty he wouldn't have made the statements he did. IMO he wasn't just attacking Fenlon, he was damaging the club by attracting such negative publicity."

As for the idea that somehow O'Connor's serving the fans' interests by blowing the gaff about the Cup Final preparations in 2012, one, as I've already said, he's the pisspot calling the kettle black, and two, last I looked he wasn't connected in any way to Hibernian and he isn't any sort of spokesman for the club or the players.

He never was.

As as GreenArmyyy! says, I'd accept Leigh Griffiths word about PF as truth long before I accepted Garry O'Connors' as anything other than spite.

[silverhibee]

What happens in the changing room, stays in the changing room, is the golden rule for everyone who plays in team sports!

Or the PM board. :wink: :greengrin

[Stonewall]

Well, at least there would be less chance of him selling the under-21s crack cocaine .... :devil:

Trying to be rational about Pat Fenlon, the least one can say for him is that Terry Butcher inherited a much more stable and sensible squad than he inherited from Calderwood. Butcher has been able to actually put a reasonably sensible team out each week - how on earth could anyone send out a sensible team with the players Calderwood lefty behind him?

Unlike Calderwood, Pat Fenlon is a decent man who gave the job 100%, and if he didn't measure up to it, he still doesn't deserve the vitriolic abuse some folks on here like to hand him out.

BUT - the team was stagnating, the football was far from attractive, and there was no sign of a corner having been turned in the fortunes of the club. In other words, same old, same old. So it was time for him to go.

Thinking back to when he arrived, however, one might recall that one of the problems besetting the team was the absence of our star Scotland international centre-forward, allegedly the victim of a stubborn and lingering injury, but also appearing regularly in the police columns of the national press in connection with various offences already detailed above.

Whatever the failings of Pat Fenlon, that centre-forward isn't the person to go on BBC Scotland to criticise him and bad-mouth him the way O'Connor has.

And another problem was that there were major problems in the dressing-room and first-team squad, a lack of discipline, a lack of respect for the club and its fans, and no sense that anything was ever going to change. O'Connor's drugs and fraud problems were one major symptom of those problems; Stack turning out looking like an unwashed jakey from the Cowgate was another. There are such things as professional standards, and I object strongly to Stack's disrespect for the club and the supporters. Most of us over the years would have paid good money to have the privilege of pulling on that jersey, and better men that Stack have worn it with pride.

If there was a major rumpus about money in the team hotel pre-Cup Final in 2012, it doesn't surprise me that Stack might have been at the heart of it.

As Jonnyboy says: "This kinda backs up what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Stack mouthing off should come as no surprise to anyone. Murray probably tried to shut him up. As for GOC the laddie has dragged the name of Hibernian into the gutter with this episode. He doesn't deserve the support he's getting from some in this thread. As was said earlier, petrie welcomed him back into the fold and IIRC correctly was teary eyed in doing so. He wanted to help get the guy back on track but if GOC had any sense of loyalty he wouldn't have made the statements he did. IMO he wasn't just attacking Fenlon, he was damaging the club by attracting such negative publicity."

As for the idea that somehow O'Connor's serving the fans' interests by blowing the gaff about the Cup Final preparations in 2012, one, as I've already said, he's the pisspot calling the kettle black, and two, last I looked he wasn't connected in any way to Hibernian and he isn't any sort of spokesman for the club or the players.

He never was.

As as GreenArmyyy! says, I'd accept Leigh Griffiths word about PF as truth long before I accepted Garry O'Connors' as anything other than spite.

Yes.

[FitbaFolkKen]

Well, at least there would be less chance of him selling the under-21s crack cocaine .... :devil:

Trying to be rational about Pat Fenlon, the least one can say for him is that Terry Butcher inherited a much more stable and sensible squad than he inherited from Calderwood. Butcher has been able to actually put a reasonably sensible team out each week - how on earth could anyone send out a sensible team with the players Calderwood lefty behind him?

Unlike Calderwood, Pat Fenlon is a decent man who gave the job 100%, and if he didn't measure up to it, he still doesn't deserve the vitriolic abuse some folks on here like to hand him out.

BUT - the team was stagnating, the football was far from attractive, and there was no sign of a corner having been turned in the fortunes of the club. In other words, same old, same old. So it was time for him to go.

Thinking back to when he arrived, however, one might recall that one of the problems besetting the team was the absence of our star Scotland international centre-forward, allegedly the victim of a stubborn and lingering injury, but also appearing regularly in the police columns of the national press in connection with various offences already detailed above.

Whatever the failings of Pat Fenlon, that centre-forward isn't the person to go on BBC Scotland to criticise him and bad-mouth him the way O'Connor has.

And another problem was that there were major problems in the dressing-room and first-team squad, a lack of discipline, a lack of respect for the club and its fans, and no sense that anything was ever going to change. O'Connor's drugs and fraud problems were one major symptom of those problems; Stack turning out looking like an unwashed jakey from the Cowgate was another. There are such things as professional standards, and I object strongly to Stack's disrespect for the club and the supporters. Most of us over the years would have paid good money to have the privilege of pulling on that jersey, and better men that Stack have worn it with pride.

If there was a major rumpus about money in the team hotel pre-Cup Final in 2012, it doesn't surprise me that Stack might have been at the heart of it.

As Jonnyboy says: "This kinda backs up what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Stack mouthing off should come as no surprise to anyone. Murray probably tried to shut him up. As for GOC the laddie has dragged the name of Hibernian into the gutter with this episode. He doesn't deserve the support he's getting from some in this thread. As was said earlier, petrie welcomed him back into the fold and IIRC correctly was teary eyed in doing so. He wanted to help get the guy back on track but if GOC had any sense of loyalty he wouldn't have made the statements he did. IMO he wasn't just attacking Fenlon, he was damaging the club by attracting such negative publicity."

As for the idea that somehow O'Connor's serving the fans' interests by blowing the gaff about the Cup Final preparations in 2012, one, as I've already said, he's the pisspot calling the kettle black, and two, last I looked he wasn't connected in any way to Hibernian and he isn't any sort of spokesman for the club or the players.

He never was.

As as GreenArmyyy! says, I'd accept Leigh Griffiths word about PF as truth long before I accepted Garry O'Connors' as anything other than spite.

cracking post :top marks

[blackpoolhibs]

Exactly. Unprofessional.

I agree to an extent, but i'd also say the club as a whole was very unprofessional in not having a cup bonus system written up before a ball was kicked for that season.

As i have said before, i'm very surprised this did not hit the net before now?:confused:

[JimBHibees]

I agree to an extent, but i'd also say the club as a whole was very unprofessional in not having a cup bonus system written up before a ball was kicked for that season.

As i have said before, i'm very surprised this did not hit the net before now?:confused:

Completely agree seems incredibly amateurish that this wasnt sorted at the start of the season and if not then immediately after the semi final. For it not to be resolved until the week / day before the final is farcical and IMO most of the blame should be the club's.

I heard a similar story once at an SFA coaching course in Livingston last year. Mick Wadsworth (ex-Carlisle and numerous other teams and countries) was one of the speakers and he was indicating that he was manager of an African team in the African Nations tournament (think it was Guinea??) and the day before the game he had prepared the team well and they had had their evening meal. He was told the Finance Minister wanted to have a short meeting with the team so he headed to his room. He woke in the morning to find out the meeting had become a barney about bonuses etc and the players had been arguing all night until 5 in the morning. :greengrin

Their first game was at 12 noon later that day and they subsequently got horsed.

[Kato]

I agree to an extent, but i'd also say the club as a whole was very unprofessional in not having a cup bonus system written up before a ball was kicked for that season.


I don't if they did or didn't. Even if they did that wouldn't stop people arguing about it at any given time.

My experience of speaking to GOC left me looking for a few pinches of salt.

[TowerHibs]

Funny how people are picking up about the bonus thing............

What about his claims that Fenlon had changed his starting line up 3 times in the run in? We can shout from the rooftops that the players were unprofessional arguing about bonuses, i agree they were being. But being surrounded in an uncertain and uncontrolled environment helps these things escalate. Job was too big for him, end of story.
We were playing against a team who didn't know if they were receiving their normal (majorly inflated) wage but Paulo Sergio managed to get the organisation and hunger out of them

[blackpoolhibs]

I don't if they did or didn't. Even if they did that wouldn't stop people arguing about it at any given time.

My experience of speaking to GOC left me looking for a few pinches of salt.

I agree about O'Connor, he has told that many lies over the years i'd check if he told me it was friday. I disagree about folk arguing at any given time though, the bonus system if in place at the beginning of every season would stop any bickering.

I know from my time playing small time football we knew just what bonus we'd get if we got through every round of the FA cup.

Not that we got very far, but when you play in the non league game your FA cup games start as early as July/August if my memory is right?

[GreenCastle]

Well, at least there would be less chance of him selling the under-21s crack cocaine .... :devil:

Trying to be rational about Pat Fenlon, the least one can say for him is that Terry Butcher inherited a much more stable and sensible squad than he inherited from Calderwood. Butcher has been able to actually put a reasonably sensible team out each week - how on earth could anyone send out a sensible team with the players Calderwood lefty behind him?

Unlike Calderwood, Pat Fenlon is a decent man who gave the job 100%, and if he didn't measure up to it, he still doesn't deserve the vitriolic abuse some folks on here like to hand him out.

BUT - the team was stagnating, the football was far from attractive, and there was no sign of a corner having been turned in the fortunes of the club. In other words, same old, same old. So it was time for him to go.

Thinking back to when he arrived, however, one might recall that one of the problems besetting the team was the absence of our star Scotland international centre-forward, allegedly the victim of a stubborn and lingering injury, but also appearing regularly in the police columns of the national press in connection with various offences already detailed above.

Whatever the failings of Pat Fenlon, that centre-forward isn't the person to go on BBC Scotland to criticise him and bad-mouth him the way O'Connor has.

And another problem was that there were major problems in the dressing-room and first-team squad, a lack of discipline, a lack of respect for the club and its fans, and no sense that anything was ever going to change. O'Connor's drugs and fraud problems were one major symptom of those problems; Stack turning out looking like an unwashed jakey from the Cowgate was another. There are such things as professional standards, and I object strongly to Stack's disrespect for the club and the supporters. Most of us over the years would have paid good money to have the privilege of pulling on that jersey, and better men that Stack have worn it with pride.

If there was a major rumpus about money in the team hotel pre-Cup Final in 2012, it doesn't surprise me that Stack might have been at the heart of it.

As Jonnyboy says: "This kinda backs up what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Stack mouthing off should come as no surprise to anyone. Murray probably tried to shut him up. As for GOC the laddie has dragged the name of Hibernian into the gutter with this episode. He doesn't deserve the support he's getting from some in this thread. As was said earlier, petrie welcomed him back into the fold and IIRC correctly was teary eyed in doing so. He wanted to help get the guy back on track but if GOC had any sense of loyalty he wouldn't have made the statements he did. IMO he wasn't just attacking Fenlon, he was damaging the club by attracting such negative publicity."

As for the idea that somehow O'Connor's serving the fans' interests by blowing the gaff about the Cup Final preparations in 2012, one, as I've already said, he's the pisspot calling the kettle black, and two, last I looked he wasn't connected in any way to Hibernian and he isn't any sort of spokesman for the club or the players.

He never was.

As as GreenArmyyy! says, I'd accept Leigh Griffiths word about PF as truth long before I accepted Garry O'Connors' as anything other than spite.

Agreed :agree:

Some fans need to step back and actually see the bigger picture with GOC - he has dragged the clubs name into the papers in several bad ways after some of the chances he's been giving.

I am not quite sure what he's trying to achieve by going public about this possible story - other than publicity for himself. It seems throughout his career he acts without thinking - he just concentrate on playing football and avoid the headlines.

We all know Fenlon was out his depth and many could see it early on but I don't see him coming out since he left airing his dirty laundry in public about players at the club. (I am also in no way a fan of Fenlon).

[Andy74]

Funny how people are picking up about the bonus thing............

What about his claims that Fenlon had changed his starting line up 3 times in the run in? We can shout from the rooftops that the players were unprofessional arguing about bonuses, i agree they were being. But being surrounded in an uncertain and uncontrolled environment helps these things escalate. Job was too big for him, end of story.
We were playing against a team who didn't know if they were receiving their normal (majorly inflated) wage but Paulo Sergio managed to get the organisation and hunger out of them

You'd have to ask the coaching staff for their side of the time line up thing.

I haven't seen any suggestion that any of the arrangements or organisation surrounding the cup final were not professional. Other than someone with recent drug and fraud charges to his name and an exe to grind.

There are losts of reasons that team line ups would not be finalised or would be changed leading up to matches. I'm sure it happens at every level every week.

Hearts were a better team that year and that day and whay happended has happended and we all know how certain events transpired to produce the result it did.

I think questions over style of play, tactics, results and all that stuff are very valid but questioning whether people who have been succesful in football all their days know what they are doing from a professional side of things? I don't see the point. Especially when the coaching staff I'm sure could tell you what they were up against with what they had to work with.

[The Sea-gull]

Funny how people are picking up about the bonus thing............

What about his claims that Fenlon had changed his starting line up 3 times in the run in? We can shout from the rooftops that the players were unprofessional arguing about bonuses, i agree they were being. But being surrounded in an uncertain and uncontrolled environment helps these things escalate. Job was too big for him, end of story.
We were playing against a team who didn't know if they were receiving their normal (majorly inflated) wage but Paulo Sergio managed to get the organisation and hunger out of them

I thought about raising this but then sometimes wonder if it is worth the hassle suggesting that Pat might have got something wrong.

Again, we don't know if this is true but if it is it does seem to be poor management. I know different managers have different ideas about when the team should be named (eg. during the week of a game, day before, hour before KO etc) but surely once the team is named it should not be changed once, never mind three times, unless there is an injury in training or maybe some news is received about the opposition's squad.

Have heard the prep for the 2013 final in this regard was not great either but again, no way of knowing what is true and what is not but frustarting if lessons weren't learned from one year to the next.

[The Sea-gull]

You'd have to ask the coaching staff for their side of the time line up thing.

I haven't seen any suggestion that any of the arrangements or organisation surrounding the cup final were not professional. Other than someone with recent drug and fraud charges to his name and an exe to grind.

There are losts of reasons that team line ups would not be finalised or would be changed leading up to matches. I'm sure it happens at every level every week.

Hearts were a better team that year and that day and whay happended has happended and we all know how certain events transpired to produce the result it did.

I think questions over style of play, tactics, results and all that stuff are very valid but questioning whether people who have been succesful in football all their days know what they are doing from a professional side of things? I don't see the point. Especially when the coaching staff I'm sure could tell you what they were up against with what they had to work with.

I might be wrong but did Ian Murray not allude to issues on a radio programme last year some time?

[blackpoolhibs]

I thought about raising this but then sometimes wonder if it is worth the hassle suggesting that Pat might have got something wrong.

Again, we don't know if this is true but if it is it does seem to be poor management. I know different managers have different ideas about when the team should be named (eg. during the week of a game, day before, hour before KO etc) but surely once the team is named it should not be changed once, never mind three times, unless there is an injury in training or maybe some news is received about the opposition's squad.

Have heard the prep for the 2013 final in this regard was not great either but again, no way of knowing what is true and what is not but frustarting if lessons weren't learned from one year to the next.

Tactics and team selection were horrendous, we had a slight chance of winning the game but in reality we were a 1 in 10 chance.

Selecting a player who was clearly injured, and playing Thomson wide left was 2 terrible decisions, and i said so at the time.

Fenlon should have gone immediately after the Malmo shambles, another thing i said at the time. It was clear then he'd had his chance and failed.

[LioNeilMessi]

Well, at least there would be less chance of him selling the under-21s crack cocaine .... :devil:

Trying to be rational about Pat Fenlon, the least one can say for him is that Terry Butcher inherited a much more stable and sensible squad than he inherited from Calderwood. Butcher has been able to actually put a reasonably sensible team out each week - how on earth could anyone send out a sensible team with the players Calderwood lefty behind him?

Unlike Calderwood, Pat Fenlon is a decent man who gave the job 100%, and if he didn't measure up to it, he still doesn't deserve the vitriolic abuse some folks on here like to hand him out.

BUT - the team was stagnating, the football was far from attractive, and there was no sign of a corner having been turned in the fortunes of the club. In other words, same old, same old. So it was time for him to go.

Thinking back to when he arrived, however, one might recall that one of the problems besetting the team was the absence of our star Scotland international centre-forward, allegedly the victim of a stubborn and lingering injury, but also appearing regularly in the police columns of the national press in connection with various offences already detailed above.

Whatever the failings of Pat Fenlon, that centre-forward isn't the person to go on BBC Scotland to criticise him and bad-mouth him the way O'Connor has.

And another problem was that there were major problems in the dressing-room and first-team squad, a lack of discipline, a lack of respect for the club and its fans, and no sense that anything was ever going to change. O'Connor's drugs and fraud problems were one major symptom of those problems; Stack turning out looking like an unwashed jakey from the Cowgate was another. There are such things as professional standards, and I object strongly to Stack's disrespect for the club and the supporters. Most of us over the years would have paid good money to have the privilege of pulling on that jersey, and better men that Stack have worn it with pride.

If there was a major rumpus about money in the team hotel pre-Cup Final in 2012, it doesn't surprise me that Stack might have been at the heart of it.

As Jonnyboy says: "This kinda backs up what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Stack mouthing off should come as no surprise to anyone. Murray probably tried to shut him up. As for GOC the laddie has dragged the name of Hibernian into the gutter with this episode. He doesn't deserve the support he's getting from some in this thread. As was said earlier, petrie welcomed him back into the fold and IIRC correctly was teary eyed in doing so. He wanted to help get the guy back on track but if GOC had any sense of loyalty he wouldn't have made the statements he did. IMO he wasn't just attacking Fenlon, he was damaging the club by attracting such negative publicity."

As for the idea that somehow O'Connor's serving the fans' interests by blowing the gaff about the Cup Final preparations in 2012, one, as I've already said, he's the pisspot calling the kettle black, and two, last I looked he wasn't connected in any way to Hibernian and he isn't any sort of spokesman for the club or the players.

He never was.

As as GreenArmyyy! says, I'd accept Leigh Griffiths word about PF as truth long before I accepted Garry O'Connors' as anything other than spite.

Good post but I'm confused about the bit in bold. What exactly was Stack saying about the bonuses? I thought he was injured at the time so why would he be interested in the cup final appearance (or whatever it was) bonuses?

[Andy74]

I thought about raising this but then sometimes wonder if it is worth the hassle suggesting that Pat might have got something wrong.

Again, we don't know if this is true but if it is it does seem to be poor management. I know different managers have different ideas about when the team should be named (eg. during the week of a game, day before, hour before KO etc) but surely once the team is named it should not be changed once, never mind three times, unless there is an injury in training or maybe some news is received about the opposition's squad.

Have heard the prep for the 2013 final in this regard was not great either but again, no way of knowing what is true and what is not but frustarting if lessons weren't learned from one year to the next.

Not worth the hassle? Because you might get one person on this entire board who might disagree?

I wouldn't disagree either if there was anyhting to go on, as you say in your post we don't know, but then you go on to assume it's poor management.

That's the sort of thing I have issue with - the exaggeration and the frankly making stuff up. Like all managers Pat got plenty wrong, of course he did. Plenty of stuff we know as opposed to creating other stuff.

[leggeto]

I thought about raising this but then sometimes wonder if it is worth the hassle suggesting that Pat might have got something wrong.

Again, we don't know if this is true but if it is it does seem to be poor management. I know different managers have different ideas about when the team should be named (eg. during the week of a game, day before, hour before KO etc) but surely once the team is named it should not be changed once, never mind three times, unless there is an injury in training or maybe some news is received about the opposition's squad.

Have heard the prep for the 2013 final in this regard was not great either but again, no way of knowing what is true and what is not but frustarting if lessons weren't learned from one year to the next.

its a conspiracy we were never going to win that game

[Andy74]

I might be wrong but did Ian Murray not allude to issues on a radio programme last year some time?

To some extent. He disagreed, in hindsight with going away and taking the approach low key. He would have done it differently. We don't know either way what difference if any that would have made and maybe one day Ian Murray will have to make similar high profile decisions and hopefully get them all right.

[Stevie Reid]

Funny how people are picking up about the bonus thing............

What about his claims that Fenlon had changed his starting line up 3 times in the run in? We can shout from the rooftops that the players were unprofessional arguing about bonuses, i agree they were being. But being surrounded in an uncertain and uncontrolled environment helps these things escalate. Job was too big for him, end of story.
We were playing against a team who didn't know if they were receiving their normal (majorly inflated) wage but Paulo Sergio managed to get the organisation and hunger out of them


Are you suggesting that Sergio had a more difficult task managing his team in that final than Fenlon did? If so, I couldn't disagree more.

[The Sea-gull]

Tactics and team selection were horrendous, we had a slight chance of winning the game but in reality we were a 1 in 10 chance.

Selecting a player who was clearly injured, and playing Thomson wide left was 2 terrible decisions, and i said so at the time.

Fenlon should have gone immediately after the Malmo shambles, another thing i said at the time. It was clear then he'd had his chance and failed.

Fenlon should never have got the job in the first place. Don't care how well he had done in the League of Ireland, he did not have the credentials to be Hibernian (or any other SPL team) manager. Said that when he was linked with the job and on his appointment. Also said I would support him and give him a chance, give him time, until such a point where I felt he wasn't cutting it, as i would with any selected manager despite my misgivings about their appointment, I did this too. The point where I felt it really was time to go was the first derby of this season. Not sacking him then may turn out to be the difference between top 6 and bottom 6 this season. It may have already turned about to be the difference between a league cup final or even a league cup win.

[Liberal Hibby]

Tactics, style and general management. History shows that overall he was a bad appointment and his tenure cannot be viewed as an overall success.

History shows? Really?

I think in time Fenlon's tenure will seen to be crucial in turning round the playing side which had become a basket case. He wasn't a success - but he wasn't a failure and a bit of perspective is needed.

[TowerHibs]

You'd have to ask the coaching staff for their side of the time line up thing.

I haven't seen any suggestion that any of the arrangements or organisation surrounding the cup final were not professional. Other than someone with recent drug and fraud charges to his name and an exe to grind.

There are losts of reasons that team line ups would not be finalised or would be changed leading up to matches. I'm sure it happens at every level every week.

Hearts were a better team that year and that day and whay happended has happended and we all know how certain events transpired to produce the result it did.

I think questions over style of play, tactics, results and all that stuff are very valid but questioning whether people who have been succesful in football all their days know what they are doing from a professional side of things? I don't see the point. Especially when the coaching staff I'm sure could tell you what they were up against with what they had to work with.

Well from 18months/2years of Fenlon, anyone who has played football at a reasonalble level could see Hibs had very little organisation/preperation for a whole range of games.

You also mention questioning people who have been successful knowing what they are doing from a professional side. Where i understand where you are coming from, i disagree. We had a manager who had never managed or played or coached at our level. A semi pro league in Ireland is a doddle compared to even Championship, League 1 in Scotland. I have played at these levels and you get away with sending a team out to do their best in Ireland. The boys there play for the love of the game, can be talented players but lack the level required to play the game tactically. Sadly, the coaching mirrored this at Hibs

They club was too big for the manager and all this fall out regarding wages, team selection, embarrassing results support this.

The coaching staff could also say "you what we were working with". I would disagee and say you had a number of international players (full team and u21's) who were unorganised and not prepared. Over a 2 year period, not just the final.

Teams line ups can change. But how do you train for the biggest game in the clubs history for 2 weeks but have 3/4 different starting line ups. I would say that uncertainty, lack of preperation and overall lack of control made jobbing footballers (not semi pro players) moan about their money. (which to the fans seems the biggest kick in the face, i agree)

[--------]

Good post but I'm confused about the bit in bold. What exactly was Stack saying about the bonuses? I thought he was injured at the time so why would he be interested in the cup final appearance (or whatever it was) bonuses?

I'm not clear myself what exact part Stack played in this - he had played in the earlier rounds of the Cup, so he probably felt he was entitled to a share in the bonuses for the Final itself. "Gimme money" is a pretty basic human instinct.

All I can work out is that there was a major rammy in the hotel shortly before the Cup Final; the reason for the rammy was bonuses; Stack was involved, and there appears to have been a confrontation between him and Ian Murray (I know which of those two I'd want around the club, all right); and O'Connor blew the gaff about this in a BBC Scotland interview with Brian McLaughlin earlier in the week, as well as delivering himself of the opinion that Pat Fenlon had totally mismanaged the preparations to the Final, and that PF was also the worst manager he (O'Connor) had worked under in the course of his long and illustrious football career.

As I and many others have already pointed out, that's the same O'Connor to whom Rod Petrie gave the chance of a fresh start at ER - and blew it big-time.

The same O'Connor who was hardly ever out of the papers that season - not because of his performances on the football field, but because of court proceedings related to charges of the possession of Class A drugs and an attempt to defraud an insurance company of a very large sum of money. Not to mention allegations of his resisting arrest, fleeing the scene of an accident, lying to the police - all of which were on the menu at one point of the affair or another.

The same Garry O'Connor who's just been given another chance of a fresh start by Kenny Shiels at Morton. I hope Kenny's taken note of how Big Gazza rewards those who try to lend him a helping hand.

[superfurryhibby]

Scottish football is such a closed shop, We, the fans, are often the last to know what goes on at our club, if we ever find out at all.

I listened to the interview and I thought O'Connor answered questions put to him reasonably. He wasn't overboard about Fenlon and merely stated what most of us know, namely that he was tactically inept and didn't really know what he was doing. Is that so wrong?

[Andy74]

Well from 18months/2years of Fenlon, anyone who has played football at a reasonalble level could see Hibs had very little organisation/preperation for a whole range of games.

You also mention questioning people who have been successful knowing what they are doing from a professional side. Where i understand where you are coming from, i disagree. We had a manager who had never managed or played or coached at our level. A semi pro league in Ireland is a doddle compared to even Championship, League 1 in Scotland. I have played at these levels and you get away with sending a team out to do their best in Ireland. The boys there play for the love of the game, can be talented players but lack the level required to play the game tactically. Sadly, the coaching mirrored this at Hibs

They club was too big for the manager and all this fall out regarding wages, team selection, embarrassing results support this.

The coaching staff could also say "you what we were working with". I would disagee and say you had a number of international players (full team and u21's) who were unorganised and not prepared. Over a 2 year period, not just the final.

Teams line ups can change. But how do you train for the biggest game in the clubs history for 2 weeks but have 3/4 different starting line ups. I would say that uncertainty, lack of preperation and overall lack of control made jobbing footballers (not semi pro players) moan about their money. (which to the fans seems the biggest kick in the face, i agree)

If the club was too big for the manager he did an incredible job in sorting out major issues which had been established for a number of years and he overhauled a number of things such as scouting and training centre. We are in a good place now to kick on and he left us in 6th place and 5 points off second. Not too shabby from the mess he inherited. Success? We want more, but that's not faulure either, not by a long way.

The club has been to three Scottish Cup finals in my days of being old enough to watch football. He took us to two of them. Again, if this was too big a job for him then I'd love to see who the range of people it suits better are.

I think you are making up and assuming a few things just based on the background he came from. That has nothing to do with his coaching or organsisational abilities or his professionalism. He mananged reasonably successfully with little resource in Europe and he also played for Chelsea for a bit as a kid. What's your relevant experience at that level?

[The Sea-gull]

If the club was too big for the manager he did an incredible job in sorting out major issues which had been established for a number of years and he overhauled a number of things such as scouting and training centre. We are in a good place now to kick on and he left us in 6th place and 5 points off second. Not too shabby from the mess he inherited. Success? We want more, but that's not faulure either, not by a long way.

The club has been to three Scottish Cup finals in my days of being old enough to watch football. He took us to two of them. Again, if this was too big a job for him then I'd love to see who the range of people it suits better are.

I think you are making up and assuming a few things just based on the background he came from. That has nothing to do with his coaching or organsisational abilities or his professionalism. He mananged reasonably successfully with little resource in Europe and he also played for Chelsea for a bit as a kid. What's your relevant experience at that level?

It is probably fair to say that Pat was nowhere near as bad as his worst critics suggest he was but he was miles away from being as good as you think he was.

If Pat is ever in court and needs someone to defend him, he should definitely ask you to do it.

[LioNeilMessi]

I'm not clear myself what exact part Stack played in this - he had played in the earlier rounds of the Cup, so he probably felt he was entitled to a share in the bonuses for the Final itself. "Gimme money" is a pretty basic human instinct.

All I can work out is that there was a major rammy in the hotel shortly before the Cup Final; the reason for the rammy was bonuses; Stack was involved, and there appears to have been a confrontation between him and Ian Murray (I know which of those two I'd want around the club, all right); and O'Connor blew the gaff about this in a BBC Scotland interview with Brian McLaughlin earlier in the week, as well as delivering himself of the opinion that Pat Fenlon had totally mismanaged the preparations to the Final, and that PF was also the worst manager he (O'Connor) had worked under in the course of his long and illustrious football career.

As I and many others have already pointed out, that's the same O'Connor to whom Rod Petrie gave the chance of a fresh start at ER - and blew it big-time.

The same O'Connor who was hardly ever out of the papers that season - not because of his performances on the football field, but because of court proceedings related to charges of the possession of Class A drugs and an attempt to defraud an insurance company of a very large sum of money. Not to mention allegations of his resisting arrest, fleeing the scene of an accident, lying to the police - all of which were on the menu at one point of the affair or another.

The same Garry O'Connor who's just been given another chance of a fresh start by Kenny Shiels at Morton. I hope Kenny's taken note of how Big Gazza rewards those who try to lend him a helping hand.

Ah right yeah makes sense now. Not impressed with O'Connor over the past few years and thought he would now, after all the chances he's had, be keeping his head down and trying to prove he's still a decent footballer. Highlighting the nonsense that went on before cup final doesn't reflect well on him regardless of what spin he puts on it.

As for Stack I actually thought he was a decent professional and nice guy - although that could just be my "friend" status with him on Facebook clouding my judgement :greengrin

[Inch Hibs]

It is probably fair to say that Pat was nowhere near as bad as his worst critics suggest he was but he was miles away from being as good as you think he was.

If Pat is ever in court and needs someone to defend him, he should definitely ask you to do it.


He was a bottom 6 manager who led us to two of the most humiliations in the clubs history.

He had more funds than the majority of the league to build a side competing at the top end of the table and he failed. Failed why producing an eye bleeding style of football and should take responsibility for 1000s of supporters walking away until he was gone.

[The Modfather]

[QUOTE=Andy74;3873266]If the club was too big for the manager he did an incredible job in sorting out major issues which had been established for a number of years and he overhauled a number of things such as scouting and training centre. QUOTE]

I read this quite alot, but haven't ever seen anyone provide any evidence to convince me either way. What specifically did Fenlon do in overhauling the scouting and training centre?

[The Modfather]

[QUOTE=Andy74;3873266]If the club was too big for the manager he did an incredible job in sorting out major issues which had been established for a number of years and he overhauled a number of things such as scouting and training centre. QUOTE]

I read this quite alot, but haven't ever seen anyone provide any evidence to convince me either way. What specifically did Fenlon do in overhauling the scouting and training centre?

[Elephant Stone]

He was a bottom 6 manager who led us to two of the most humiliations in the clubs history.

He had more funds than the majority of the league to build a side competing at the top end of the table and he failed. Failed why producing an eye bleeding style of football and should take responsibility for 1000s of supporters walking away until he was gone.

If you rank a European result pre-season among our biggest ever humiliations then I think you must have a very short memory, or a very selective one.

[--------]

It is probably fair to say that Pat was nowhere near as bad as his worst critics suggest he was but he was miles away from being as good as you think he was.

If Pat is ever in court and needs someone to defend him, he should definitely ask you to do it.


I agree with Andy that PF was able to address certain issues. The situation he left was a lot better than the situation he inherited. He certainly made a big difference to Leigh Griffiths. And it didn't help him when the two experienced defenders he signed after that final - McPake and Clancy, from whom a lot was expected - played less than half a season before becoming long-term injury cases.

That said, I agree that it was rapidly becoming clear that the job was too big for him, and that (for whatever reasons) he wasn't the man to take the club forward. Malmo and the derbies made that clear. I think bottom line is that he was the wrong appointment for a club with as many issues as Hibs had when Calderwood left.

It occurred to me around that time that Hibs might well be becoming unmanageable, or maybe that no one can manage Hibs in a way that will satisfy the more demanding of the fans. I'm not yet convinced that this isn't so. I think - I hope - that Terry Butcher will prove me wrong, but I suspect we'll find out what those fans really think about him and Malpas by the end of this season.

[TowerHibs]

If the club was too big for the manager he did an incredible job in sorting out major issues which had been established for a number of years and he overhauled a number of things such as scouting and training centre. We are in a good place now to kick on and he left us in 6th place and 5 points off second. Not too shabby from the mess he inherited. Success? We want more, but that's not faulure either, not by a long way.

The club has been to three Scottish Cup finals in my days of being old enough to watch football. He took us to two of them. Again, if this was too big a job for him then I'd love to see who the range of people it suits better are.

I think you are making up and assuming a few things just based on the background he came from. That has nothing to do with his coaching or organsisational abilities or his professionalism. He mananged reasonably successfully with little resource in Europe and he also played for Chelsea for a bit as a kid. What's your relevant experience at that level?

To be fair, cup competitions anything can happen. We had a relavtively easy run in to the final gainst Hearts and an unbelievable 45 mins against Falkirk. Absolutley he deserves credit for that. We've had top class managers who did not take us to cup finals, doesnt make them poor. Thats what makes cup competitions great.

I would not say i'm making it up. I would say the evidence is on a 2 year term which lacked any playing style, numerous huge disappointments and the overall mood and feel at the club. There was never anything positive coming out EM or ER. His attitude with the press showed he did not know how to handle negativity and turn it into a positive.

He did leave us a half decent squad yes. With said squad however, he had the attrocious Malmo game and beat of the Hearts twice. Now the sad things about this were (aprt from 15/20mins against Hearts) nothing changed. Same clueless style and a hopeful attitude that the boys would pull through. And it is this exact attitude i mean that comes from a league like the Irish league - that teams with the better players will win.. Unfortuately, not like this at tougher leagues, you need a bit more.

In terms of my experience, i played with Scottish clubs and in Ireland. I have no doubt that Pat has been a successful manager, good guy and whatever else you like about him. However, he was not in control of his team for vasts amount of his tenure and if it were not for Leigh Griffiths or Claros at times he would have been hounded out a lot earlier. It was the wrong appointment.

To the other post above too, at no time did i say PS had a tougher job than PF. But he managed the players to concentrate on the football and dig in when it mattered. Something sadly Fenlon could not do.

Anyway, we could all argue till we are blue in the face. You have your opinion and know you wont alter from that. I just think the club should have seen the mess was in after CC and made the incorrect judgement in appointing Fenlon. His inexperience and lack of conviction contributed to embarrassing results and a dwindling crowd. In my eyes, the club is completely different in 5/6 week now Butcher is in

[B.H.F.C]

If you rank a European result pre-season among our biggest ever humiliations then I think you must have a very short memory, or a very selective one.

Aye it's only the record defeat for a Scottish club in Europe. Not that embarassing. We only knew for two months we'd have that game.

It was a competitive game which was the start of our season, not pre season.

[Elephant Stone]

Aye it's only the record defeat for a Scottish club in Europe. Not that embarassing. We only knew for two months we'd have that game.

It was a competitive game which was the start of our season, not pre season.

It doesn't even compare to recent domestic bad results. Losing 4-0 to Hearts in the semi-final of the Scottish Cup was much, much worse. That was under Tony Mowbray, who endured more than one 4 goal pumping by Hearts and a bad European result of his own (5-1 v Dnipro).

It wasn't worse than losing to Livingston in the CIS cup final.

It wasn't worse than losing the Scottish cup semi-final to Dunfermline under John Collins.

Overall, Hibs have some humiliating defeats, like all teams, maybe more so. These happen under all of our managers. I really don't think performance in Europe is a convincing measure of a manager's performance for Hibs, it's actually funny that some people think it is.

[woodythehibee]

Unsure where all the Stack information is coming from.

My understanding is that for the Hearts final, Spoony was not included in the squad due to him apparantly receiving a bonus if he were to play one more game.

[B.H.F.C]

It doesn't even compare to recent domestic bad results. Losing 4-0 to Hearts in the semi-final of the Scottish Cup was much, much worse. That was under Tony Mowbray, who endured more than one 4 goal pumping by Hearts.

It wasn't worse than losing to Livingston in the CIS cup final.

It wasn't worse than losing the Scottish cup semi-final to Dunfermline under John Collins.

Overall, Hibs have some humiliating defeats, like all teams, maybe more so. These happen under all of our managers. I really don't think performance in Europe is a convincing measure of a manager's performance for Hibs, it's actually funny that some people think it is.

I agree all those results were shockers. But the Malmo debacle just summed up the direction we were heading in at that time. Yes Collins and Mowbray had their bad moments but they also brought a lot more good results and enjoyment with them to balance them out. The Malmo result coming on the back of the garbage we'd endured for the previous 20 odd months when Pat was apparently building a team summed his tenure up perfectly.

[Inch Hibs]

It doesn't even compare to recent domestic bad results. Losing 4-0 to Hearts in the semi-final of the Scottish Cup was much, much worse. That was under Tony Mowbray, who endured more than one 4 goal pumping by Hearts.

It wasn't worse than losing to Livingston in the CIS cup final.

It wasn't worse than losing the Scottish cup semi-final to Dunfermline under John Collins.

Overall, Hibs have some humiliating defeats, like all teams, maybe more so. These happen under all of our managers. I really don't think performance in Europe is a convincing measure of a manager's performance for Hibs, it's actually funny that some people think it is.

Mental. The worst result in Scottish football's European history isn't as bad as losing to Dunfermline in the Scottish cup.

Aye ok then.

[Elephant Stone]

Mental. The worst result in Scottish football's European history isn't as bad as losing to Dunfermline in the Scottish cup.

Aye ok then.

Oh, Scottish football's proud European history? And Hibs' proud European history? I forgot that we have such a good reputation to uphold.

And yes, I found losing to Dunfermline in the Scottish cup semi final and losing to Livingston in the CIS final infinitely more embarrassing than being hammered by an established European competitor who had already started their competitive season. I suspect most people actually are the same.

[Elephant Stone]

I agree all those results were shockers. But the Malmo debacle just summed up the direction we were heading in at that time. Yes Collins and Mowbray had their bad moments but they also brought a lot more good results and enjoyment with them to balance them out. The Malmo result coming on the back of the garbage we'd endured for the previous 20 odd months when Pat was apparently building a team summed his tenure up perfectly.

Mowbray had many bad moments, he lost 4-0 to Hearts in the semi final and 5-1 to Dnipro with a far, far better team than Fenlon had. I wouldn't for a second hold the European defeat against Mowbray, neither does anybody else.

[Inch Hibs]

Oh, Scottish football's proud European history? And Hibs' proud European history? I forgot that we have such a good reputation to uphold.

And yes, I found losing to Dunfermline in the Scottish cup semi final and losing to Livingston in the CIS final infinitely more embarrassing than being hammered by an established European competitor who had already started their competitive season. I suspect most people actually are the same.

Yep both Scottish Football and Hibernian have proud European histories.

That's good for you. I see losing 7-0 at home in Europe to go down in the record books as the worst in the countries history as a lot more humiliating to losing to 2 SPL sides in cup competitions at Hampden.

[B.H.F.C]

Mowbray had many bad moments, he lost 4-0 to Hearts in the semi final and 5-1 to Dnipro with a far, far better team than Fenlon had. I wouldn't for a second hold the European defeat against Mowbray, neither does anybody else.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't enjoy those results but over the time Mowbray was there he brought many great results like back to back 3-0 wins at Ibrox and won nearly half his games. In terms of the Hearts semi look at the team we had to go in with. O'Connor sold, Brown injured, Riordan suspended, Benji debut, an 18 year old Fletcher. And don't forget we ended up with 9 men. In Dnipro we lost two late goals when chasing the game against a team who had multiple players in the Ukraine squad that got to a World Cup quarter final 9 months later. Mowbray was far from perfect. Fenlon was far from decent.

[Jonnyboy]

I suppose it was inevitable that this thread would morph into a discussion re PF but in an effort to get it back on track can I say that it's the conduct of GOC that needs attention here.

A player that put the club's name on the front pages of newspapers on a number of occasions was given a chance to resurrect his career by PF and Hibs. Nobody else would have touched him with a bargepole. To then conduct himself in that radio interview the way he did was shameful and I hope he never darkens the door at ER again, either as a player or spectator.

It's funny really, Deek gets more grief on this messageboard than GOC ever did and yet Deek's 'misdemeanours' were insignificant in relation to GOC's

[Jonnyboy]

Oh, Scottish football's proud European history? And Hibs' proud European history? I forgot that we have such a good reputation to uphold.

And yes, I found losing to Dunfermline in the Scottish cup semi final and losing to Livingston in the CIS final infinitely more embarrassing than being hammered by an established European competitor who had already started their competitive season. I suspect most people actually are the same.

Historically, three Scottish clubs have won European honours and others like Hibs have reached semi finals. I'd say that's a history such a small country has every reason to be proud of

[TowerHibs]

I suppose it was inevitable that this thread would morph into a discussion re PF but in an effort to get it back on track can I say that it's the conduct of GOC that needs attention here.

A player that put the club's name on the front pages of newspapers on a number of occasions was given a chance to resurrect his career by PF and Hibs. Nobody else would have touched him with a bargepole. To then conduct himself in that radio interview the way he did was shameful and I hope he never darkens the door at ER again, either as a player or spectator.

It's funny really, Deek gets more grief on this messageboard than GOC ever did and yet Deek's 'misdemeanours' were insignificant in relation to GOC's

I agree 100%. Derek is what is called a silly laddie. Got noised up in a few night clubs and bit the bait. He is nothing of the hellraiser people paint him out to be.

Better player than Garry too!!!

;)

[--------]

I suppose it was inevitable that this thread would morph into a discussion re PF but in an effort to get it back on track can I say that it's the conduct of GOC that needs attention here.

A player that put the club's name on the front pages of newspapers on a number of occasions was given a chance to resurrect his career by PF and Hibs. Nobody else would have touched him with a bargepole. To then conduct himself in that radio interview the way he did was shameful and I hope he never darkens the door at ER again, either as a player or spectator.

It's funny really, Deek gets more grief on this messageboard than GOC ever did and yet Deek's 'misdemeanours' were insignificant in relation to GOC's


Absolutely correct, John.

Deek managed to sidestep the question beautifully - "must have been one of the Chinese ones". And his side of the interview actually shows him in a very good light - he sounded pretty thoughtful and sensible to me.

All O'Connor had to say was something like "one of the guys fae Siberia"and McIntyre's left gnashing his falsers, but no, not only does he name Fenlon, he has to start going into details about the nasty shambles that was Hibs in May 2012, blaming it all on the manager.

As if the players (including himself) didn't carry great deal of responsibility for that shambles as well.

After all, they were the guys who were actually on the field.

And THEN he has the gall to claim that he himself was gutted about the performance and result.

Sorry, Garry, a whole lot of people got you on video later that night, very far from gutted.

In fact, carrying on as if you hadn't a care in whole freakin world.

Which is, as you say, John, THE POINT.

[scott7_0(Prague)]

Interesting snippet below. If true it just further cements how daft Derek actually is if he had an opportunity to go and train with Morton and didnt show!


Derek Riordan has been seen a proposed move to Belgium fall apart after the Royal Antwerp chairman branded him an ‘enfant terrible’.

The former Hibs and Scotland star has been without a club after being released by Bristol Rovers more than a year ago. He was supposed to train with Morton last week but didn’t turn up. (Daily Express)

[Ronniekirk]

Interesting snippet below. If true it just further cements how daft Derek actually is if he had an opportunity to go and train with Morton and didnt show!

He is living in the past sadly if he doesn't get something sorted out soon he is on the scrapheap. If he isn't already It really is a waste but he hasn't knuckled down and got himself in physical shape so that was the least he could of done .

[patlowe]

Deek managed to sidestep the question beautifully - "must have been one of the Chinese ones". And his side of the interview actually shows him in a very good light - he sounded pretty thoughtful and sensible to me.

I agree re the manager question but I have to say I was slightly disappointed in Deek's lack of insight into how his career has gone downhill. Listening to him you would think that he is in no way responsible for what has gone wrong and the entire downfall in his career is down to what he perceives as unfair treatment by other people or circumstance (Strachan didnae like me, the food wisnae right, naebody's willing to give me a chance etc). For his flaws, of which there are many, at least GOC has enough awareness to appreciate that he is to blame for the position he now finds himself in.

[Bad Martini]

For his flaws, of which there are many, at least GOC has enough awareness to appreciate that he is to blame for the position he now finds himself in.

...Apart from admitting he and his pals ****ed up the Scottish Cup Final and then looked for everyone and everything under the sun to blame. Had they burst their balls and run through walls and got slapped 5-1, we'd have taken it. We wouldnt have liked it but we would have accepted it. We didnt all stand like ****ers singing at the end of the game against celtic because we accepted defeat and loved getting slapped from those thieving *******s....it was an attempt at solidarity and the fact we were beaten by a better team, even though we gave it some.

Nothing like the pish against the yams.

****ing disgraceful behaviour from journey men and never-will-be's/has-been's and ****ing everything in between...The opinion of anyone from that cup final means less than **** all to me. Petrie, Fenlon and all those players had a hand in that scoreline and they can all look back on that day and accept they are the ****ers they are.

ENDOF

[patlowe]

...Apart from admitting he and his pals ****ed up the Scottish Cup Final and then looked for everyone and everything under the sun to blame. Had they burst their balls and run through walls and got slapped 5-1, we'd have taken it. We wouldnt have liked it but we would have accepted it. We didnt all stand like ****ers singing at the end of the game against celtic because we accepted defeat and loved getting slapped from those thieving *******s....it was an attempt at solidarity and the fact we were beaten by a better team, even though we gave it some.

Nothing like the pish against the yams.

****ing disgraceful behaviour from journey men and never-will-be's/has-been's and ****ing everything in between...The opinion of anyone from that cup final means less than **** all to me. Petrie, Fenlon and all those players had a hand in that scoreline and they can all look back on that day and accept they are the ****ers they are.

ENDOF

I wasn't referring to the cup final but that's a pretty impressive rant all the same!

[Bad Martini]

I wasn't referring to the cup final but that's a pretty impressive rant all the same!

Aimed at the losers and journey men of the final rather than yourself...Wasn't blaming you like. Unless youre Petrie, Fenlon or one of said losers :greengrin

[edinburghhibee]

...Apart from admitting he and his pals ****ed up the Scottish Cup Final and then looked for everyone and everything under the sun to blame. Had they burst their balls and run through walls and got slapped 5-1, we'd have taken it. We wouldnt have liked it but we would have accepted it. We didnt all stand like ****ers singing at the end of the game against celtic because we accepted defeat and loved getting slapped from those thieving *******s....it was an attempt at solidarity and the fact we were beaten by a better team, even though we gave it some. Nothing like the pish against the yams. ****ing disgraceful behaviour from journey men and never-will-be's/has-been's and ****ing everything in between...The opinion of anyone from that cup final means less than **** all to me. Petrie, Fenlon and all those players had a hand in that scoreline and they can all look back on that day and accept they are the ****ers they are. ENDOF

I loved reading this, as I feel similar with the exception of Lewis and sparky

[FitbaFolkKen]

...Apart from admitting he and his pals ****ed up the Scottish Cup Final and then looked for everyone and everything under the sun to blame. Had they burst their balls and run through walls and got slapped 5-1, we'd have taken it. We wouldnt have liked it but we would have accepted it. We didnt all stand like ****ers singing at the end of the game against celtic because we accepted defeat and loved getting slapped from those thieving *******s....it was an attempt at solidarity and the fact we were beaten by a better team, even though we gave it some.

Nothing like the pish against the yams.

****ing disgraceful behaviour from journey men and never-will-be's/has-been's and ****ing everything in between...The opinion of anyone from that cup final means less than **** all to me. Petrie, Fenlon and all those players had a hand in that scoreline and they can all look back on that day and accept they are the ****ers they are.

ENDOF

I felt proud to be a Hibby when I left the Celtic final, the singing at the end was a cracking act of defiance. If ever "We are Hibernian FC" meant anything it was then.

However the other one.... Night and day when you look back.

[CallumLaidlaw]

@bbccumbriasport: NEWS: Carlisle boss Graham Kavanagh confirms former Celtic and Hibs forward Derek Riordan is training with the club http://t.co/BULIgrRi1M

[EskbankHibee]

@bbccumbriasport: NEWS: Carlisle boss Graham Kavanagh confirms former Celtic and Hibs forward Derek Riordan is training with the club http://t.co/BULIgrRi1M

Come on Kavanagh sign him up!

[SHODAN]

...Apart from admitting he and his pals ****ed up the Scottish Cup Final and then looked for everyone and everything under the sun to blame. Had they burst their balls and run through walls and got slapped 5-1, we'd have taken it. We wouldnt have liked it but we would have accepted it. We didnt all stand like ****ers singing at the end of the game against celtic because we accepted defeat and loved getting slapped from those thieving *******s....it was an attempt at solidarity and the fact we were beaten by a better team, even though we gave it some.

Nothing like the pish against the yams.

****ing disgraceful behaviour from journey men and never-will-be's/has-been's and ****ing everything in between...The opinion of anyone from that cup final means less than **** all to me. Petrie, Fenlon and all those players had a hand in that scoreline and they can all look back on that day and accept they are the ****ers they are.

ENDOF

Correct.

[clerriehibs]

Oh, Scottish football's proud European history? And Hibs' proud European history? I forgot that we have such a good reputation to uphold.

And yes, I found losing to Dunfermline in the Scottish cup semi final and losing to Livingston in the CIS final infinitely more embarrassing than being hammered by an established European competitor who had already started their competitive season. I suspect most people actually are the same.

first one, yes; 2nd one, no ... those gimps cheated in those days in the same way as the yams have been.

[OsloHibs]

Gary should have shut his face and said nothing. Bitter that Fenlon got rid of him, a total fool

[clerriehibs]

...Apart from admitting he and his pals ****ed up the Scottish Cup Final and then looked for everyone and everything under the sun to blame. Had they burst their balls and run through walls and got slapped 5-1, we'd have taken it. We wouldnt have liked it but we would have accepted it. We didnt all stand like ****ers singing at the end of the game against celtic because we accepted defeat and loved getting slapped from those thieving *******s....it was an attempt at solidarity and the fact we were beaten by a better team, even though we gave it some.

Nothing like the pish against the yams.

****ing disgraceful behaviour from journey men and never-will-be's/has-been's and ****ing everything in between...The opinion of anyone from that cup final means less than **** all to me. Petrie, Fenlon and all those players had a hand in that scoreline and they can all look back on that day and accept they are the ****ers they are.

ENDOF

The players knew very quickly that day they were up against the cheat in black. Some reacted badly to the fans ranting in the aftermath. So what? It was the ******* in the black that cheated Hibs that day. The scoreline I don't give a **** about anymore, and the players involved, I don't feel particularly badly towards. The 'referee'? Hope his missus runs off with a Hibby. I also hope his life becomes a greek tragedy and he ends up on the streets or in saughton.

[Bad Martini]

The players knew very quickly that day they were up against the cheat in black. Some reacted badly to the fans ranting in the aftermath. So what? It was the ******* in the black that cheated Hibs that day. The scoreline I don't give a **** about anymore, and the players involved, I don't feel particularly badly towards. The 'referee'? Hope his missus runs off with a Hibby. I also hope his life becomes a greek tragedy and he ends up on the streets or in saughton.

No denying he was a prick too mate. Comes down to your mentality and desire to win. Shafted by a ref and backs to the wall there's two ways to react. Our lot picked the worst thing and done **** all.

Agree on the ref. A prick for sure. But our lot done nothing to bathe themselves in any Glory.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[Leishy1995]

Didn't want to start a new thread but GOC's record at Morton is already looking brilliant

[Andy74]

Did I hear Derek had been offered a trial at Morton after Garry O had a word but he didn't turn up ??

Says a lot if true.

[St.Kristopher]

Well this thread escalated slowly!

[Stax]

Didn't want to start a new thread but GOC's record at Morton is already looking brilliant
F*** me, that's some goals to games ratio..:greengrin

[silverhibee]

Did I hear Derek had been offered a trial at Morton after Garry O had a word but he didn't turn up ??

Says a lot if true.

Can assure you Derek has not spoken to KS about a trial at Morton.

There was something mentioned when the two (Garry Derek) were on the radio a few weeks ago but that was it.

Derek is training with Carlisle Utd. http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/carlisle-united/latest/ex-celtic-striker-derek-riordan-training-with-carlisle-utd-1.1113078

[Andy74]

Can assure you Derek has not spoken to KS about a trial at Morton.

There was something mentioned when the two (Garry Derek) were on the radio a few weeks ago but that was it.

Derek is training with Carlisle Utd. http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/carlisle-united/latest/ex-celtic-striker-derek-riordan-training-with-carlisle-utd-1.1113078

Fair enough. Either heard on radio or read this in last few days.

[Ronniekirk]

Didn't want to start a new thread but GOC's record at Morton is already looking brilliant
Yep see what you mean Two appearances ,no shots on target,but 16 goals .incredible stuff always though we got rid of him too soon:rolleyes:L

[Ronniekirk]

Fair enough. Either heard on radio or read this in last few days.

At Carlisle now but sure I heard or read same story so it's either fact or urban myth

[Andy74]

At Carlisle now but sure I heard or read same story so it's either fact or urban myth

Here we go:

New Cappielow chief Shiels was keen to run the rule over ex-Scotland international Riordan as he looks to strengthen his squad before the end of the transfer window next Friday.

But the controversial forward was a no-show at the Ton's Parklea training base this week and has since been linked with a switch to Belgian side Royal Antwerp.

Shiels said: "I don't know where he is. I have not heard from him and he hasn't spoken to me.

"I thought he was coming in this week, but he hasn't appeared. We are now looking at other targets.

"If he is not going to come in then we have to look elsewhere."

[silverhibee]

Here we go:

New Cappielow chief Shiels was keen to run the rule over ex-Scotland international Riordan as he looks to strengthen his squad before the end of the transfer window next Friday.

But the controversial forward was a no-show at the Ton's Parklea training base this week and has since been linked with a switch to Belgian side Royal Antwerp.

Shiels said: "I don't know where he is. I have not heard from him and he hasn't spoken to me.

"I thought he was coming in this week, but he hasn't appeared. We are now looking at other targets.

"If he is not going to come in then we have to look elsewhere."

How did Shiels think that Derek was coming in this week if he hadn't spoken to Derek.

[Ronniekirk]

Here we go:

New Cappielow chief Shiels was keen to run the rule over ex-Scotland international Riordan as he looks to strengthen his squad before the end of the transfer window next Friday.

But the controversial forward was a no-show at the Ton's Parklea training base this week and has since been linked with a switch to Belgian side Royal Antwerp.

Shiels said: "I don't know where he is. I have not heard from him and he hasn't spoken to me.

"I thought he was coming in this week, but he hasn't appeared. We are now looking at other targets.

"If he is not going to come in then we have to look elsewhere."
Thanks ,so fact not urban myth .:aok:

[silverhibee]

Thanks ,so fact not urban myth .:aok:

What's a fact. :confused:

[Pete]

Thanks ,so fact not urban myth .:aok:

I can only guess by the quotation marks that he's quoted a newspaper article...one that's pretty vague and makes a lot of assumptions. He doesn't even tell us which one.

And this is "fact"? :rolleyes:

Why would a player who is desperate to be back in the game act like that? The only "facts" are that newspapers like headlines like this as it panders to those who like to kick people who have been at the top and find themselves at a relatively low ebb.

Skacel is begging to be taken back by a club that are heading for relegation and can't even guarantee his wages....where are all the negative headlines? The difference is that Derek was chosen by Celtic and taken to a higher level (unlike caravan boy).

It's probably all Glasgow based rubbish and as there's nothing but light down at parkhead they need to hear a bit of shade to keep things interesting.

[Andy74]

How did Shiels think that Derek was coming in this week if he hadn't spoken to Derek.

I assume from the quote that he means he hasn't heard from or spoken to him since he was due in.

Shiels is directy quoted as saying he expected him in but he didn't appear.

[SlickShoes]

How did Shiels think that Derek was coming in this week if he hadn't spoken to Derek.

I know you are his uncle but can you really no work out what was meant from the article?

Shiels expected him in and he's no seen or heard from him since.

This doesn't explain anything about why he's not been at Morton or if there was some sort of legitimate mix up. I guess only Derek and his agent know what's going on.