The other Tornadoes

[Jonnyboy]

Anyone who lived through those halcyon days will agree that the line up of Herriot, Brownlie and Schaedler, Stanton, Black and Blackley, Edwards, O'Rourke, Gordon, Cropley and Duncan were the team christened Turnbull's Tornadoes. It's all the more surprising therefore that the eleven named only lined up 22 times as a team! With that in mind I thought it might be interesting to see the variations from their first game together on 23 August 1972 until the transfer out of Jim Herriot meant they would never line up as that eleven again.

Of course the leg break to John Brownlie and the absurdly long suspension handed down to Mickey Edwards meant that the eleven were not always available. Even then, however, Turnbull used other players even when some of the original eleven were still available for selection. Another factor is that after his horrendous performance in Split, Jim Herriot never played for Hibs again.

With apologies for the length of the post, I've detailed below all of Hibs' results from 23 August 1972 until the last game of that season on 28 April 1973. Those games in italics represent those the eleven played in. As a unit, that eleven won 18, drew 2 and lost 2 scoring 71 goals and conceding 22. All of this information came courtesy of the fantastic website http://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/

23/8/72 v Aberdeen at home in the league cup; won 2-1 Sub was Johnny Hamilton. Goals O’Rourke and Cropley

26/8/72 v Queens Park away in the league cup; won 1-0 Alan Gordon scored. John Hazel replaced Cropley in starting line up

30/8/72 v Queen of the South away in the league cup; won 3-1 Blackley, Gordon and Duncan. Tony Higgins replaced Jimmy O’Rourke in the starting line up.

2/9/72 v Aberdeen away in the league; lost 1-0. John Hazel replaced Jimmy O’Rourke in the starting line up. Billy McEwan was on the bench

9/9/72 v Hearts at home in the league; won 2-0 Stanton and Cropley

13/9/72 v Sporting Lisbon away in the cup winners cup; lost 2-1 Duncan

16/9/72 v East Fife away in the league; won 1-0 Gordon

20/9/72 v Dundee Utd away in the league cup; won 5-2 O’Rourke 3 Cropley 2

23/9/72 v Dundee Utd at home in the league; won 3-1 Gordon 2 + o.g. Johnny Hamilton on the bench

27/9/72 v Sporting Lisbon at home in the cup winners cup; won 6-1 O’Rourke 3, Gordon 2 and o.g.

30/9/72 v St Johnstone at home in the league; won 3-2 O’Rourke 2 Gordon. Billy McEwan replaced John Blackley in the starting line up. Johnny Hamilton was on the bench

4/10/72 v Dundee Utd at home in the league cup; drew 0-0. Johnny Hamilton replaced Blackley in the starting line up.

7/10/72 v Dundee away in the league; lost 1-0.

11/10/72 v Airdrie away in the league cup; won 6-2 Brownlie 2, Duncan 3 and O’Rourke pen.

14/10/72 v Airdrie at home in the league; won 5-2 O’Rourke 3 (1pen), Gordon and Duncan

21/10/72 v Partick Thistle away in the league; won 3-1 Gordon 2 and Duncan

25/10/72 v FC Besa at home in the cup winners cup; won 7-1 Brownlie, O’Rourke 3, Cropley and Duncan 2.

28/10/72 v Dumbarton away in the league; drew 2-2 Gordon and Duncan. Jim McArthur replaced Jim Herriot in the starting line up.

1/11/72 v Airdrie at home in the league cup; won 4-1 Stanton, Edwards and O’Rourke 2. Bobby Robertson replaced Jim Herriot in the starting line up.

4/11/72 v Kilmarnock at home in the league; won 4-1 Stanton 2, O’Rourke and Duncan. Jim McArthur replaced Jim Herriot in the starting line up.

8/11/72 v FC Besa away in the cup winners cup; drew 1-1 Gordon. Bobby Robertson was on the bench and came on to replace Jim Herriot.

11/11/72 v Morton away in the league; won 3-0 O’Rourke 3 (2 pens). Jim McArthur replaced Jim Herriot in the starting line up.

18/11/72 v Rangers at home in the league; lost 2-1 Stanton. Jim McArthur replaced Jim Herriot in the starting line up and John Hazel replaced Alan Gordon

22/11/72 v Rangers at Hampden in league cup semi; won 1-0 Brownlie

25/11/72 v Arbroath away in the league; won 3-2 Gordon 2 and Duncan

2/12/72 v Falkirk at home in the league; won 3-0 Stanton, Gordon and Duncan

9/12/72 v Celtic at Hampden in the league cup final; won 2-1 Stanton and O’Rourke. Johnny Hamilton was on the bench.

16/12/72 v Ayr Utd at home in the league; won 8-1 Stanton, O’Rourke 3, Gordon 3 and Cropley

23/12/72 v Celtic away in the league; drew 1-1 Gordon

30/12/72 v Aberdeen at home in the league; won 3-2 Stanton, O’Rourke and Gordon

1/1/73 v Hearts away in the league; won 7-0 O’Rourke 2, Gordon 2, Duncan 2 and Cropley

6/1/73 v East Fife at home in the league; won 1-0 Gordon. Brownlie suffered a leg break and Johnny Hamilton came off the bench

13/1/73 v Dundee Utd away in the league; lost 1-0. Des Bremner replaced John Brownlie and Bobby Smith was on the bench

27/1/73 v Dundee at home in the league; drew 1-1 Gordon. Bremner replaced Brownlie, Tony Higgins replaced Stanton and Johnny Hamilton replaced O’Rourke who was on the bench

3/2/73 v Morton at home in the Scottish cup; won 2-0 Higgins and Cropley. Bremner replaced Brownlie, Higgins replaced Stanton and Hamilton replaced O’Rourke.

10/2/73 v Airdrie away in the league; won 4-0 Gordon 4. Bremner replaced Brownlie and Higgins replaced O’Rourke

21/02/73 v St Johnstone away in the league; won 3-1 Schaedler, Gordon and Duncan. Bremner replaced Brownlie and Hamilton replaced Edwards

24/2/73 v Rangers away in the Scottish cup; drew 1-1 Gordon. Bremner replaced Brownlie and Hamilton replaced Edwards

28/2/73 v Rangers at home in Scottish cup replay; lost 2-1 Duncan. Bremner replaced Brownlie, Hamilton replaced Edwards and Higgins replaced O’Rourke.

3/3/73 v Dumbarton at home in the league; won 5-0 Hamilton, Gordon, Cropley 2 and Duncan. Bremner replaced Brownlie, Hamilton replaced Edwards and Higgins replaced O’Rourke who was on the bench.

7/3/73 v Hajduk Split at home in the cup winners cup; won 4-2 Gordon 3 and Duncan. Bremner replaced Brownlie and Higgins replaced O’Rourke.

10/3/73 v Kilmarnock away in the league, drew 2-2 Stanton and Higgins. Bremner replaced Brownlie, Hamilton replaced Edwards and Higgins replaced O’Rourke.

13/3/73 v Partick Thistle at home in the league; won 2-0 O’Rourke and Cropley pen. Billy McEwan replaced Brownlie and Higgins replaced Edwards

17/3/73 at home to Morton in the league; won 2-1 Higgins and Gordon. Billy McEwan replaced Brownlie and Higgins replaced Edwards

21/3/73 away to Hajduk Split in the cup winners cup; lost 3-0. Bremner replaced Brownlie and Higgins replaced O’Rourke who was on the bench alongside Bobby Smith

24/3/73 away to Rangers in the league; lost 1-0. McArthur replaced Herriot, Bremner replaced Brownlie, McEwan replaced Schaedler, Smith replaced Edwards and Higgins replaced O’Rourke.

31/3/73 at home to Arbroath in the league; drew 0-0. McArthur replaced Herriot, Bremner replaced Brownlie, McEwan replaced Schaedler, Smith replaced Edwards and Higgins replaced O’Rourke who was on the bench.

7/4/73 away to Falkirk in the league; lost 1-0. McArthur replaced Herriot, Bremner replaced Brownlie, and Higgins replaced Edwards.

10/4/73 away to Motherwell in the league; drew 1-1 Higgins. McArthur replaced Herriot, McEwan replaced Brownlie, Higgins replaced Blackley and Smith replaced O’Rourke.

14/4/73 v Motherwell at home in the league; lost 1-0. McArthur replaced Herriot, Tam Stevens replaced Brownlie, Higgins replaced Blackley, Smith replaced O’Rourke and Hazel replaced Duncan.

21/4/73 away to Ayr Utd in the league; drew 1-1 O’Rourke. McArthur replaced Herriot, Bremner replaced Brownlie, Derek Spalding replaced Blackley and Smith replaced Cropley.

28/4/73 at home to Celtic in the league; lost 3-0. McArthur replaced Herriot, Bremner replaced Brownlie and Spalding replaced Blackley.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

A great season no doubt about it but a wee pattern emerges here is that when MacArthur replaced Herriot we seldom won, we either lost or drew, the start of our downward spiral had began.

[TRC]

fantastic as always jb, your insight into hibs is always a pleasure to read even being to young to remember these guys, I have my dad (who's a Dundee fan) remind me all the time the players he saw growing up and as a young adult. these names crop up on a regular basis. Also at this time of year when I take a couple of drams remember my granddad who would have been 90 this year (and loved a wee dram) would sit me and my brother down and tell us about great players he had seen and described 7-0 on numerous occasions, so much so that I had a brilliant idea of how it looked in my head so good was his story telling that when I first saw it I could describe goal for goal almost to perfection. so thanks JB for letting me think about my granddad with one of your posts!:top marks

[Jonnyboy]

fantastic as always jb, your insight into hibs is always a pleasure to read even being to young to remember these guys, I have my dad (who's a Dundee fan) remind me all the time the players he saw growing up and as a young adult. these names crop up on a regular basis. Also at this time of year when I take a couple of drams remember my granddad who would have been 90 this year (and loved a wee dram) would sit me and my brother down and tell us about great players he had seen and described 7-0 on numerous occasions, so much so that I had a brilliant idea of how it looked in my head so good was his story telling that when I first saw it I could describe goal for goal almost to perfection. so thanks JB for letting me think about my granddad with one of your posts!:top marks

No worries my friend. Glad you enjoyed reading it :thumbsup:

[Tom Hart RIP]

Great memories. I remember Tam Stevens who was 18 but completely bald when that wasn't fashionable. I met him years later and he was shocked when I mentioned that I'd been at his only game for Hibs.

[Jonnyboy]

Great memories. I remember Tam Stevens who was 18 but completely bald when that wasn't fashionable. I met him years later and he was shocked when I mentioned that I'd been at his only game for Hibs.

Pretty sure Tam suffered from Alopecia. Left to join the growing band of ex Hibs players at Hamilton IIRC

[houstonhibbee]

I had remembered that the Tornadoes had played in the 1972 Scottish Cup Final and am surprised that they didnt play together until the following season. I thought Hazel was the sub that day.

[houstonhibbee]

A bit of research and Hazel played in the 72 Cup Final but only because Cropley was injured - otherwise it would appear that the 72 Cup Final would have been the first appearance of the Tornadoes.............hadnt realized that

[greenpaper55]

I remember the first part of the season well but not so much of the later slump in form, i was at Tannadice to see Bremner make his debut and thought we had a straight replacement for Brownlie but it was not to be. We lacked Brownlies dash on the right and then there was always the John Hazel factor , Cropley dropped at times to let Hazel get a game was something i could never understand !.

[Tom Hart RIP]

A bit of research and Hazel played in the 72 Cup Final but only because Cropley was injured - otherwise it would appear that the 72 Cup Final would have been the first appearance of the Tornadoes.............hadnt realized that

I think Alex Cropley missed the end of that season when Alex Ferguson broke his ankle at Brockville.

[happiehibbie]

I remember the TT and think back to the European nights and the expectation to WIN. the funny thing is the OP is right the 11 guys roll of the tongue, I could not name the team from Saturday maybe one day we will all be able to remember a line up to be proud of again

[Lucius Apuleius]

Got that team framed and right above me as I speak. Gobsmacked they only played 22 times together to be honest!

[Hibby Bairn]

Thx JB. What was the reason O'Rourke was on the bench so much after New Year?

[Ray_]

Pretty sure Tam suffered from Alopecia. Left to join the growing band of ex Hibs players at Hamilton IIRC

I remember the Friday edition of the evening news on the eve of the game and there was a picture of Tam [I won't say young Tam as he was older than me :greengrin], he had a full mop of shoulder length fair hair, it was a fair shock to see him run out on the Saturday afternoon.

[Ray_]

Thx JB. What was the reason O'Rourke was on the bench so much after New Year?

I think it would indicate that it was more than just having Joe Harper come in that decided the brilliant Jimmy O'Rouke's time at Hibs. Hard to understand, as well as the goals, he worked his socks off for the club.

[Ray_]

Got that team framed and right above me as I speak. Gobsmacked they only played 22 times together to be honest!

It is a total surprise to be honest, Alan Gordon joined in January 1972 and the rest of the TT's were already there, Alex Cropley's injury must have been a factor, I remember John Hazel playing in the 1972 SC semi against Rangers, which was his best game for the club.

[Jonnyboy]

I remember the Friday edition of the evening news on the eve of the game and there was a picture of Tam [I won't say young Tam as he was older than me :greengrin], he had a full mop of shoulder length fair hair, it was a fair shock to see him run out on the Saturday afternoon.

Think the lad wore a wig when not playing, Ray.

[Ray_]

Think the lad wore a wig when not playing, Ray. Yeah he did, but I don't many people knew about it before he started that Saturday, I certainly never and the hair on the wig was pretty long.

I remember the last game that season against Celtic and I must admit that in my memory we had more young players than we did playing that day. I was moving to Manchester that July so it was a pretty emotional day for me and I got lumbered in to taking a female workmate, who had no interest in football and I had no interest in her, especially on matchday!!!! So i'm not surprised I got it wrong.

[heretoday]

I remember the TT and think back to the European nights and the expectation to WIN. the funny thing is the OP is right the 11 guys roll of the tongue, I could not name the team from Saturday maybe one day we will all be able to remember a line up to be proud of again

Indeed. Also I hope we have a manager who doesn't ruin the good thing that he has built.

[Ghaax]

Indeed. Also I hope we have a manager who doesn't ruin the good thing that he has built.


Think JOR's mouth and Eddie's stubbornness may have been the reason for Jimmy missing a few games. :rolleyes:

Coincidently enough only got to know of this fact (the 22 games) a couple of weeks ago when chatting to Alan G's son.

Must admit, as I was a little nipper at the time, I have better (and good) memories of the likes of Bremner and Smith. Even Jim McArthur! However when you read some of the line ups, unless there was a lot of injury problems to the 11, then Turnball has more than the Harper criticism to answer for.....
:confused::confused:

[Lucius Apuleius]

It is a total surprise to be honest, Alan Gordon joined in January 1972 and the rest of the TT's were already there, Alex Cropley's injury must have been a factor, I remember John Hazel playing in the 1972 SC semi against Rangers, which was his best game for the club.

Yet I still remember his goal against the yams at tynie in the cup. 3rd round, diving header, thing of beauty. I liked John hazel.

[Iggy Pope]

14/4/73 v Motherwell at home in the league; lost 1-0. McArthur replaced Herriot, Tam Stevens replaced Brownlie, Higgins replaced Blackley, Smith replaced O’Rourke and Hazel replaced Duncan.


The bold bits suggest that the lack of depth was the biggest factor in the subsequent (but hardly immediate) decline and it wasnae wee fat Joe's fault really.
Much as I adored Bobby Smith and big Tony, these names just are not in the same class. John Hazel and Johnny Hamilton were habitual No. 12s (when you only had the one :greengrin) and the likes of Stevens, Billy McEwan and Bobby Robertson seldom made that lofty status as far as I recall.
I wish we had found another half dozen Des Bremners.

[Jonnyboy]

14/4/73 v Motherwell at home in the league; lost 1-0. McArthur replaced Herriot, Tam Stevens replaced Brownlie, Higgins replaced Blackley, Smith replaced O’Rourke and Hazel replaced Duncan.


The bold bits suggest that the lack of depth was the biggest factor in the subsequent (but hardly immediate) decline and it wasnae wee fat Joe's fault really.
Much as I adored Bobby Smith and big Tony, these names just are not in the same class. John Hazel and Johnny Hamilton were habitual No. 12s (when you only had the one :greengrin) and the likes of Stevens, Billy McEwan and Bobby Robertson seldom made that lofty status as far as I recall.
I wish we had found another half dozen Des Bremners.

I'd settle for one of his like in the current team :greengrin

[Ray_]

Yet I still remember his goal against the yams at tynie in the cup. 3rd round, diving header, thing of beauty. I liked John hazel.

Yes, remember it well, plus the winner from Arthur that brought all the English scouts sniffing around. I concur with John Hazel, I liked him as well, but we were in the minority and that semi final performance was something else, I never saw him play as well again.

[McD]

My dad can still roll out the names like he's talking about family, but probably couldnt name some of yesterday's team.

Would have loved to have seen them play.

stunned that they only played 22 times together, especially as everyone knows the names so well together.

[superfurryhibby]

Very interesting JB, I would have guessed that the team played many more games together.

Without wishing to undermine Turnbull, surely no Hibs manager could have built then dismantled such a team so quickly. Reading his book, it was clear that Turnbull held a lot of bitterness around his time as manager at ER. He arrived with a tremendous pedigree from Aberdeen and transformed what we had at ER, supplemented by a couple of key signings and then kind of lost the plot after two or three seasons.

For me there were a lot of bizarre decisions made, starting with the signing of Harper. I cannot comprehend why Hart sanctioned this and why Turnbull felt it was needed. If we had signed an international class goalkeeper and/or a top quality centre half then that would have made sense. The sale of Gordon, O'Rourke and Cropley hit that team very hard. The swapping of the emerging talent that was Iain Munro was also a strange one too.

Turnbull was clearly and incredibly driven individual and he didn't acknowledge any sense of regret or responsibility for how it went at Hibs. It's also clear that his man management skills were not always the best, although I do feel his players have been pretty discrete about that with the media.

Oh what could have been

[heretoday]

Instead of splashing out on Harper, Turnbull should have shored up the defence with a couple of top players. They got caught square on several occasions. The classic was the 6-1 Hampden defeat. Dixie Deans was a tough old striker but he wasn't that good.

I reckon Turnbull has had a pretty easy ride from us green-tinted spectators over the years.

[Jonnyboy]

Very interesting JB, I would have guessed that the team played many more games together.

Without wishing to undermine Turnbull, surely no Hibs manager could have built then dismantled such a team so quickly. Reading his book, it was clear that Turnbull held a lot of bitterness around his time as manager at ER. He arrived with a tremendous pedigree from Aberdeen and transformed what we had at ER, supplemented by a couple of key signings and then kind of lost the plot after two or three seasons.

For me there were a lot of bizarre decisions made, starting with the signing of Harper. I cannot comprehend why Hart sanctioned this and why Turnbull felt it was needed. If we had signed an international class goalkeeper and/or a top quality centre half then that would have made sense. The sale of Gordon, O'Rourke and Cropley hit that team very hard. The swapping of the emerging talent that was Iain Munro was also a strange one too.

Turnbull was clearly and incredibly driven individual and he didn't acknowledge any sense of regret or responsibility for how it went at Hibs. It's also clear that his man management skills were not always the best, although I do feel his players have been pretty discrete about that with the media.

Oh what could have been


Instead of splashing out on Harper, Turnbull should have shored up the defence with a couple of top players. They got caught square on several occasions. The classic was the 6-1 Hampden defeat. Dixie Deans was a tough old striker but he wasn't that good.

I reckon Turnbull has had a pretty easy ride from us green-tinted spectators over the years.

All good points, well made. My own view is that ET wanted to get the better of Jock Stein. He was obsessed by it and when the eleven men we all know and love as his Tornadoes couldn't achieve that, he started tinkering and instead of improving the side, he dismantled it and never realised his own dream

[eastterrace]

All good points, well made. My own view is that ET wanted to get the better of Jock Stein. He was obsessed by it and when the eleven men we all know and love as his Tornadoes couldn't achieve that, he started tinkering and instead of improving the side, he dismantled it and never realised his own dream

yes turnbull hated stein but the harper signing was the start of it falling apart. tho he did score a cracker past cruickshank in the derby at easter road.

[Tom Hart RIP]

While Joe Harper turned out to be a bad move for Hibs, it shows the ambition of the club as this (if memory correct) was the largest fee ever paid by a Scottish team at the time. Imagine us doing that now? It's unthinkable.
Despite how things turned out at Easter road Harper was a prolific goal scorer with Aberdeen.

[Ray_]

While Joe Harper turned out to be a bad move for Hibs, it shows the ambition of the club as this (if memory correct) was the largest fee ever paid by a Scottish team at the time. Imagine us doing that now? It's unthinkable.
Despite how things turned out at Easter road Harper was a prolific goal scorer with Aberdeen.


The ambition in paying out 132K [120k transfer fee & 12k vat] at the start of 1974 was short lived as Tom Hart sold Alex Cropley later that year to balance the books. I was delighted when we signed Harper as he was immense at Aberdeen and was performing well at Everton, but at the expense of losing Sojer, never in a million years.

[Jonnyboy]

The ambition in paying out 132K [120k transfer fee & 12k vat] at the start of 1974 was short lived as Tom Hart sold Alex Cropley later that year to balance the books. I was delighted when we signed Harper as he was immense at Aberdeen and was performing well at Everton, but at the expense of losing Sojer, never in a million years.

This :agree:

[whiskyhibby]

Wonderful memories, I was a 7 year old taken to the main stand by my dad and his friend Micky during this period, great memories of sitting on the wall on the left side of the main stand nearest to what is now the famous five stand watching in awe as my favourites routinely ripped teams apart..... :-))

[whiskyhibby]

The ambition in paying out 132K [120k transfer fee & 12k vat] at the start of 1974 was short lived as Tom Hart sold Alex Cropley later that year to balance the books. I was delighted when we signed Harper as he was immense at Aberdeen and was performing well at Everton, but at the expense of losing Sojer, never in a million years.

Always remember ( I think it was his first or second home game ) Harper playing keepy uppy on the main stand side whilst moving forward with the ball, great skill and a great if eventually destructive addition to the squad, I really thought we were going to win the league that year after signing Harper....

[Phil D. Rolls]

I remember the TT and think back to the European nights and the expectation to WIN. the funny thing is the OP is right the 11 guys roll of the tongue, I could not name the team from Saturday maybe one day we will all be able to remember a line up to be proud of again

Short term memory is the first thing to go. :greengrin

[ancient hibee]

While Joe Harper turned out to be a bad move for Hibs, it shows the ambition of the club as this (if memory correct) was the largest fee ever paid by a Scottish team at the time. Imagine us doing that now? It's unthinkable.
Despite how things turned out at Easter road Harper was a prolific goal scorer with Aberdeen.


He was pretty prolific at Hibs too-a goal every two games.

[Ghaax]

He was pretty prolific at Hibs too-a goal every two games.

Yeah - but if you check that run listed by JB, Alan Gordon scored 26 goals in 21 league games at one stage (missed 1 game and not counting cup matches).
:not worth:not worth:not worth

Better go check my counting now............ :wink: