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Jonnyboy
21-12-2013, 07:56 PM
From the BBC

I've a feeling folk might concentrate on the 'fear' aspect but for me the most important point he makes is ...... "You can't repair what's been going on for quite some time here in four or five games. If I did that, it would be miraculous.

bingo70
21-12-2013, 08:09 PM
I think he's just talking about confidence.

Jonnyboy
21-12-2013, 08:16 PM
I think he's just talking about confidence.

Good chance aye :agree:

Alfred E Newman
21-12-2013, 08:34 PM
I think he's just talking about confidence.

I'm not so sure. Sitting up in the stand today would enable him to see our problems in all their glory.
Chronic lack of real pace throughout the team and inability to cross the ball with any accuracy are only two.

bingo70
21-12-2013, 08:42 PM
I'm not so sure. Sitting up in the stand today would enable him to see our problems in all their glory.
Chronic lack of real pace throughout the team and inability to cross the ball with any accuracy are only two.

Very true.

SmashinGlass
21-12-2013, 08:48 PM
I'm not so sure. Sitting up in the stand today would enable him to see our problems in all their glory.
Chronic lack of real pace throughout the team and inability to cross the ball with any accuracy are only two.

I said that very thing to my mate during the game. We lack pace and, as a result struggle to attack quickly. It was clear that our crosses weren't very good today and I'd like to see us trying to hit the bye line, but with no pace, that's not going to happen. We badly need Harris back, as well as one or two additions in January. Butcher will know what is needed by now I feel.

down-the-slope
21-12-2013, 08:50 PM
I think to some extent Terry is having some of the same issues Pat had....players who look great in training and somehow fail to bring that on match day (particularly at ER) Confidence or what ever it is.

Think about this - Our midfield was the poorest area of team today (Defence & Forwards OK) and yet OTJ who Terry knows well and was main stay of his team for some time is not even making the bench...so Terry must think those who are in team / on he bench are better? why is that not reflected on pitch?.

I think that had one of the multitude of chances in last Derby had gone in we would have seen whole season transformed via the confidence feel good produced...While Terry has brought something new and some changes I still feel we need that kind of break through to see the best of the squad..

weonlywon6-2
21-12-2013, 10:37 PM
We need to trust terry.He aint gonna change much in a couple of weeks,it will take time.
Once harris and heffernan are back we should be seeing better performances

Andy74
21-12-2013, 11:19 PM
I'm not so sure. Sitting up in the stand today would enable him to see our problems in all their glory.
Chronic lack of real pace throughout the team and inability to cross the ball with any accuracy are only two.

Well Lewis Stevenson as a winger isn't a way to sort that one!

Eyrie
21-12-2013, 11:44 PM
Butcher's midfield isn't working - Craig is too deep, Stevenson lacks creativity and Cairney is too slow.

Simple solution is to have Thomson sitting with Craig and Harris (when back) flanking Robertson and supporting the strikers. Stevenson can move to LB or provide midfield depth along with Stanton and one of Taiwo or Tudur-Jones. I'd let the other one leave together with Cairney and bring in a genuine winger to compete with Craig and Harris.

IWasThere2016
21-12-2013, 11:48 PM
He's pissing a lot better with the cock he has than Fenlon did .. So to speak :greengrin

Saorsa
21-12-2013, 11:50 PM
From the BBC

I've a feeling folk might concentrate on the 'fear' aspect but for me the most important point he makes is ...... "You can't repair what's been going on for quite some time here in four or five games. If I did that, it would be miraculous. I agree with him, I can see a difference but there's definitely hangovers from the previous regime that look like they're going tae take a while tae get rid of. :agree:

matty_f
21-12-2013, 11:52 PM
He's pissing a lot better with the cock he has than Fenlon did .. So to speak :greengrin

To be fair, he's not really. We're not scoring goals or picking up wins, we do attack more I suppose but we don't look like we are going to score.

madabouthibs
21-12-2013, 11:53 PM
I think Harris is a great wee player, but we're not half heaping some huge pressure on this lad! Everyone seems to think we're gonna become some sort of contender when he's back! :rolleyes:
Yes, it'll be good to see him back doing what he does best, but we still need someone to pop those crosses and channel balls in the net, and of course another micfielder on the other side, Harris isn't the 15-20 goals a season striker we need so badly. :agree:

The Modfather
22-12-2013, 12:21 AM
Well Lewis Stevenson as a winger isn't a way to sort that one!

Not easy trying to fit the square pegs Fenlon has left us with into the round holes is it.

Onceinawhile
22-12-2013, 06:41 AM
He's pissing a lot better with the cock he has than Fenlon did .. So to speak :greengrin

Not really,

Fenlon beat partick, st mirren and st johnstone and took a point off celtic in the league as well. So butcher is 7 points down on him.

Hibercelona
22-12-2013, 08:07 AM
No player who goes out there should ever lack confidence. If they are, then something is seriously wrong.

Tyler Durden
22-12-2013, 08:44 AM
No player who goes out there should ever lack confidence. If they are, then something is seriously wrong.

Happens to bigger and better than us - look at Torres.

Liam Craig is the worst at the moment for me. The players are so careful to keep the ball that every pass is a cert after 2/3 touches, there's no risk taken to beat a man or take the ball in a tight area.

What we'd give for the quality of a Beuzelin or a Shiels and yet some posters here tell you they had 1 good game in 5. What's the ratio for current team?

IWasThere2016
22-12-2013, 08:56 AM
To be fair, he's not really. We're not scoring goals or picking up wins, we do attack more I suppose but we don't look like we are going to score.

The only comparison can be games played as TB's not had the 4 or 5 windows PF had.

Is TB's first few games better or not than PF's?

cocopops1875
22-12-2013, 09:17 AM
No player who goes out there should ever lack confidence. If they are, then something is seriously wrong.

Utter Pish:confused:

Hibercelona
22-12-2013, 09:21 AM
Happens to bigger and better than us - look at Torres.

Liam Craig is the worst at the moment for me. The players are so careful to keep the ball that every pass is a cert after 2/3 touches, there's no risk taken to beat a man or take the ball in a tight area.

What we'd give for the quality of a Beuzelin or a Shiels and yet some posters here tell you they had 1 good game in 5. What's the ratio for current team?


Utter Pish:confused:

I don't want any player going out there in a Hibs top who doesn't believe they can win games.

You should never go out onto that pitch lacking confidence or belief.

Tyler Durden
22-12-2013, 09:23 AM
I don't want any player going out there in a Hibs top who doesn't believe they can win games.

You should never go out onto that pitch lacking confidence or belief.

We should also win every game scoring a minimum of 4 goals - I demand nothing less

Hibercelona
22-12-2013, 09:26 AM
We should also win every game scoring a minimum of 4 goals - I demand nothing less

That's not what i'm saying.

But sending players out in a Hibs top who aren't confident and who are "afraid of winning"? :confused:

That just shouldn't happen.

ginger_rice
22-12-2013, 10:52 AM
Heard TB on the radio yesterday he identified a lack of pace as something that needs addressing, also said he's looking to get some players in in important positions but wouldn't speculate on where, he also suggested that some "older" players may need to move on.

Andy74
22-12-2013, 11:05 AM
He's pissing a lot better with the cock he has than Fenlon did .. So to speak :greengrin

He's not though is he?

Andy74
22-12-2013, 11:08 AM
The only comparison can be games played as TB's not had the 4 or 5 windows PF had.

Is TB's first few games better or not than PF's?

Easiest way is how they both did with this team.

Every team Butcher has played in the league we've had a worse result than the first time we played them.

When Fenlon left we were 6th and 5 points off second place. We are well adrift now. Granted Jimmy Nic had a couple of games in there too.

Danderhall Hibs
22-12-2013, 11:32 AM
Easiest way is how they both did with this team.

Every team Butcher has played in the league we've had a worse result than the first time we played them.

When Fenlon left we were 6th and 5 points off second place. We are well adrift now. Granted Jimmy Nic had a couple of games in there too.

Haha. The man that wouldn't let it lie.

Butcher out, Fenlon in,

Heisenberg
22-12-2013, 11:38 AM
Fenlon should have definitely been given another 2 years to make us even slower and more unbalanced, IMO. Butcher out, Fenlon in.

Craig_in_Prague
22-12-2013, 11:45 AM
Easiest way is how they both did with this team.

Every team Butcher has played in the league we've had a worse result than the first time we played them.

When Fenlon left we were 6th and 5 points off second place. We are well adrift now. Granted Jimmy Nic had a couple of games in there too.

Its embarrassing to defend Fenlon, please, stop.

Hibbyradge
22-12-2013, 11:48 AM
You should never go out onto that pitch lacking confidence or belief.

What should you do?

Saorsa
22-12-2013, 12:11 PM
Are you still here Pat? I thought you'd gone hame. :agree:

silverhibee
22-12-2013, 12:36 PM
Have we really only scored 10 goals in the league this season, or have i got that wrong.

Hibercelona
22-12-2013, 12:42 PM
What should you do?

Go out believing you can win the game.

Thats what winners do, don't they? :confused:

We don't seem to want winners at this club though, judging by some comments.

Hibercelona
22-12-2013, 12:46 PM
Have we really only scored 10 goals in the league this season, or have i got that wrong.

10 goals.

That's what you get from players that fear big crowds and winning. Astonishing attitude.

steviehibsleith
22-12-2013, 01:10 PM
No pace in the team - jeso honest the fans have been saying that for years. When we bring in a few guys with pace i wonder how the rest will look in training when they are up against someone who can actually run. Next up ability- sorry but many have now shown to be bang average and will be moved on as soon as contracts up. If Lewis Stevenson is a fixture in a Hibs team then sorry we are a bottom six club no matter how honest and hard working he is. The squad will change with a better balance but will take 2 transfer windows for this too happen but im sure TB will have us a top 6 club and bring the fans back.

Onion
22-12-2013, 01:26 PM
No pace in the team - jeso honest the fans have been saying that for years. When we bring in a few guys with pace i wonder how the rest will look in training when they are up against someone who can actually run. Next up ability- sorry but many have now shown to be bang average and will be moved on as soon as contracts up. If Lewis Stevenson is a fixture in a Hibs team then sorry we are a bottom six club no matter how honest and hard working he is. The squad will change with a better balance but will take 2 transfer windows for this too happen but im sure TB will have us a top 6 club and bring the fans back.

:top marks All you had to do was watch the ICT v Dons match yesterday to see just how far off the pace our players are. Ok, defensively there were a few bad goals given away, but the movement, control, awareness, enthusiasm to go forward were on a completely different level to Hibs. This is not going to get addressed in a Jan window. Will take at least 2 or 3 before we get shot of the duds and TB starts to raise the teams overall standards and expectation. There are still far too many players in that team who are either not bothered or not good enough to look bothered.

edwards
22-12-2013, 01:39 PM
We have never replaced Griffiths who was by far one of the best forwards in years, Collins who will run his heart out just can't match him.
We badly need a goalscorer in January and would love to see Boyd at Er if the rumours are true.
We also lack a leader on the park I know Terry has given Craig a chance as captain and Criag and Robertson are our best pair in the centre of midfield but feel we need a captain who will add a bit of steel in the centre of defence and lead from the back, Mcpake done this on arrival but due to his injury worries has spent as much time out as in the team.
I am sure Butcher will already have a couple of targets in place for January. :wink:

IWasThere2016
22-12-2013, 06:10 PM
Easiest way is how they both did with this team.

Every team Butcher has played in the league we've had a worse result than the first time we played them.

When Fenlon left we were 6th and 5 points off second place. We are well adrift now. Granted Jimmy Nic had a couple of games in there too.

:faf: And when the same was said about Calderwood leaving us in a higher place than Fenlon did - it was CC's team that was the issue! Even when Fenlon had a window.

You are a belter Andy.. I trust you're no gonna answer my post then 'cos you dinnae do facts :wink: :greengrin

The_Horde
22-12-2013, 06:38 PM
Collins would be the perfect partner for LG.

weonlywon6-2
22-12-2013, 09:27 PM
Easiest way is how they both did with this team.

Every team Butcher has played in the league we've had a worse result than the first time we played them.

When Fenlon left we were 6th and 5 points off second place. We are well adrift now. Granted Jimmy Nic had a couple of games in there too.


We have stood still whilst the dons utd inverness and well have been playing decent stuff.We are a long way behind these teams and it will be next season before we can start competing.
Most of the players we have just now are just average.
Our squad over the last few years has got poorer.
Watched the 2 nil win v them from several years ago and the football we played was brillian,we can only dream of that now

Stevie Reid
23-12-2013, 10:10 AM
:faf: And when the same was said about Calderwood leaving us in a higher place than Fenlon did - it was CC's team that was the issue! Even when Fenlon had a window.

You are a belter Andy.. I trust you're no gonna answer my post then 'cos you dinnae do facts :wink: :greengrin

You brought Fenlon up and had (IMO) a pretty cheap dig at him, and (again IMO) haven't backed up your argument with any substance. You did similar after Yogi left - you would constantly bring him up in threads, and when posters took issue they were accused of being 'obsessed' with him.

FWIW, I'm happy we have Butcher, and am prepared to give him all the time he needs - however, to claim that we are significantly better under him already is inaccurate, especially when judged on results. My mate very accurately described our style at the weekend as 'quicker crap', i.e. we still get the same end product - no goals, and very few chances - from doing things more quickly, and being in the opposition third with greater regularity. Loads of crosses into the box and decent periods of keeping the opposition hemmed in - you would expect that against ten men - but no real quality at all. The threats we offer at the moment are very, very basic ones, and of course Fenlon has to be to blame for us being in this position, squad-wise.

IMO the difference that Butcher has made so far has been similar to the impact that Fenlon made when he first came in - there's more endeavour and bit more of an edge to what we're doing, but it hasn't really translated to results. FWIW, I'm aware that Fenlon lost 8 of his first 11 games, but he took over a team and squad in far worse condition than Butcher - Butcher is rightly claiming that it will take a long time to fix our current problems, Fenlon said similar when he took over and that was just as understandable then. It was only really after the January window that we saw a significant improvement in our fortunes under Fenlon, and it will be the same with Butcher.

There is no argument that Fenlon left us with a squad that is deficient in vital areas (whilst the injuries to Harris and Heffernan have been unfortunate, we still should have had much more to offer) and had to go when he did, but he is gone now, so that really should be that. IMO the only Hibs manager who deserves abuse and ridicule is Calderwood, for not only doing an horrendously bad job, but also for treating the whole club with such disdain - guys like Yogi and Fenlon wanted to be Hibs manager, and whilst it didn't work out, they did their best.

I look forward to the future under our new management team, I especially look forward to who we will bring in given Marsella's record at finding the type of player that we need right now. Butcher has only won one game so far, and if I had to pick any of them it would have been the cup game, as that seems like the only chance we'll have of retaining some interest towards the end of the season. I'm not happy with what I've seen so far but I'm hopeful that it will get better - however, I've thought that way many, many times in the last few years. Regardless, I'll be as patient with TB as I have been with other managers. I'll also remain respectful of those previous managers who gave their best to improve us, regardless of how it turned out.

matty_f
23-12-2013, 10:57 AM
Great post, Stevie.

blackpoolhibs
23-12-2013, 11:05 AM
Go out believing you can win the game.

Thats what winners do, don't they? :confused:

We don't seem to want winners at this club though, judging by some comments.

How do you know they dont think this way? I could play for Hibs at 53, and believe i'd be able to play better than my opposite number, but that wouldnt make the slightest difference when he went passed me for the 20th time.

I used to think i talked some **** in my time, but by just believing the team could win, we could have a title winning side.

I wonder why Pat Fenlon never thought of this, as i'm sure Terry Butcher has? :faf:

GreenOnions
23-12-2013, 11:18 AM
Easiest way is how they both did with this team.

Every team Butcher has played in the league we've had a worse result than the first time we played them.

When Fenlon left we were 6th and 5 points off second place. We are well adrift now. Granted Jimmy Nic had a couple of games in there too.

I know what you're saying Andy and I have some sympathy with what I believe to be your view.

I would certainly agree that Pat moved us forward. The question was - would he be able to take us on from there.

I happen to think that Pat chose the right time to move on and I think he did the honourable thing.

Whilst results since he's gone have not been great I think that most people attending games can see some things that are now much more positive than at the end of Pat's time.

The most important one for me is "shots at goal". Despite the fact that we still don't have anywhere near enough creativity TB has had an immediate impact on the extent to which we are "taking the game to the opposition".

I believe that much of that is down to approach and belief and that TB etc has had a strong influence on that.

Much more required I'd agree but also a step change

Hibiza
23-12-2013, 11:34 AM
no matter who or why. Our goal scoring and general chances are shocking. any team like Hamilton for an e.g would score more goals than us. prob give bags more away . not the point re- goals scored.:flag:

ancient hibee
23-12-2013, 06:34 PM
We have nobody in the team that can make a goal.Nobody with vision or skill to see an opening.Passes have to be direct to a man or a punt up the wing.Nobody can draw a defender and play a striker in.Strikers expend energy controlling or chasing clearances.We have suffered this for 3 seasons now.Many of Griffiths'goals were made by him or ferocious shots.This hid the dreadful ordinariness of the team and this is the legacy of Calderwood and Fenlon who had the opportunity and financial backing to get it right and failed miserably.

greenpaper55
23-12-2013, 07:25 PM
Butcher has recently built a successful team on a budget that is a fraction of ours, it beggars belief that he will not do the same at ER.

Andy74
23-12-2013, 07:31 PM
Butcher has recently built a successful team on a budget that is a fraction of ours, it beggars belief that he will not do the same at ER.

I hope he does. Long term I'm sure he will.

All I'm taking exception to is this nonsense that is being repeated about us improving so much the last few weeks. I'm not sure there's any sort of measure that would back that up. Our results are worse against the teams we've played so far than the last time we played them. Cup game excepted. In a cup we've made the last two finals in right enough.

Jonnyboy
23-12-2013, 07:35 PM
I hope he does. Long term I'm sure he will.

All I'm taking exception to is this nonsense that is being repeated about us improving so much the last few weeks. I'm not sure there's any sort of measure that would back that up. Our results are worse against the teams we've played so far than the last time we played them. Cup game excepted. In a cup we've made the last two finals in right enough.

I agree that we haven't improved much but I'm not surprised by that as it's the same group of players with the same levels of ability. This obsession with comparing records after a few games is baffling (not saying it's only you Andy). Surely it's what happens from now forwards rather than harping on about past managers?

matty_f
23-12-2013, 07:40 PM
I agree that we haven't improved much but I'm not surprised by that as it's the same group of players with the same levels of ability. This obsession with comparing records after a few games is baffling (not saying it's only you Andy). Surely it's what happens from now forwards rather than harping on about past managers?

Exactly. :agree: Comparisons are nonsense at this stage, a point I've been (badly) ring to make on the pm board. There is no meaningful comparison at this stage. Fwiw, I think we look better under Butcher but as Andy points out there is little in the way of tangible evidence to back that up.

blackpoolhibs
23-12-2013, 08:18 PM
I agree that we haven't improved much but I'm not surprised by that as it's the same group of players with the same levels of ability. This obsession with comparing records after a few games is baffling (not saying it's only you Andy). Surely it's what happens from now forwards rather than harping on about past managers?

I'd say the only thing thats improved is we do make a few more chances, and we play the game further up the park.

Its still awful to watch and its still the same poor players who Fenlon brought to the club. If Terry had the same amount of time with these players, i believe we'd still be pish and we'd have even poorer gates than we are getting now.

I don't for one minute think we will be this awful to watch and play this poorly in 2 years time, but if we were Butcher would be rightly punted like the last one was.

Every manager needs time, and Butcher will get a fair crack of the whip like they all do. Please let this manager be the right one, and lets hope he's got the ability to get this club where it should rightly be. :pray:

Speedway
23-12-2013, 08:34 PM
Afraid of winning translates to me as prefer not to win.

As 1950's as this may sound, I'd drop every player suspected of that attitude, no opportunity of redemption.

SOOOOO bored of this *****