Pat Stanton - 1974 World Cup

[allmodcons]

Can somebody tell me how or why the great man never made the 1974 World Cup Squad.

Don't get me wrong it was great squad of players, but no Pat Stanton at time when he was somewhere near at the top of his game?

[Dalkeith Boy]

Because he did not play for Celtic or Rangers!

[Jack]

Because he did not play for Celtic or Rangers!

What he said

[Phil D. Rolls]

Probably more to do with Jim Holton, and Martin Buchan being first choice pics. Willie Ormond wasn't shy at picking East Coast players in front of OF players. One of the reserve goalies was Thomson Allan if Dundee, and Donald Ford also made the trip.

[JimBHibees]

Probably more to do with Jim Holton, and Martin Buchan being first choice pics. Willie Ormond wasn't shy at picking East Coast players in front of OF players. One of the reserve goalies was Thomson Allan if Dundee, and Donald Ford also made the trip.

John Blackley started the first game. Scotland did have a very strong squad though it has to be said.

[CentreLine]

Probably more to do with Jim Holton, and Martin Buchan being first choice pics. Willie Ormond wasn't shy at picking East Coast players in front of OF players. One of the reserve goalies was Thomson Allan if Dundee, and Donald Ford also made the trip.

So did John Blackley and Eric Scheadler. Pat had everything except pace they said at the time IIRC

[Stantons Angel]

Apart from the obvious, he didn't play for an old firm team, there were a few English based players preferred before him. It wasn't till later in his career that he moved back to play sweeper as Turnbull preferred to play him in a midfield roll.

Scotland at the time had a glut of good midfield players in Kenny Dalgleish, Billy Bremner and Peter Lorimer available for selection.

Pat was at the height of his career and if he had worn the other colour of green he would have had many more caps than he did.

The man was majestic in every way, he glided over the grass prodding and spreading passes everywhere with inch perfect precision.

He was a joy to watch in full flight pushing on his team never letting them forget they were HIBERNIAN!

Oh for his likes again!!!

[Bostonhibby]

What he said

:agree: If I remember correctly had been voted Scottish footballer of the year just before as well, Right man, wrong club in my honest opinion.

[hhibs]

I seem to remember that there was something of a" love in" by the pundits and media for Martin Buchan. which pretty much screwed Pat out of a place in the squad.

[Ray_]

:agree: If I remember correctly had been voted Scottish footballer of the year just before as well, Right man, wrong club in my honest opinion.

He won the player of the year award in 1970, but his talent indicated that should have gone anyway. Pat was captain of the team that came second in a Scottish League that contained far more quality than it does today. Celtic regularly got to the later reaches of what is now the champions league, Rangers won the Cup Winners Cup the previous season, beating a Bayern Munich team that contained much of the 1974 World Cup winning team on the way.

Scottish football was littered with star names, Dalglish, McGrain, Jardine, Andy Gray, Ian Wallace, Ray Stewart, Alan Hanson, Gordon Strachan, Steve Archiebald, to name but a few and I didn't even mention any from Scotland's second best team, from which Pat Stanton topped the lot.

[bigwheel]

Probably more to do with Jim Holton, and Martin Buchan being first choice pics. Willie Ormond wasn't shy at picking East Coast players in front of OF players. One of the reserve goalies was Thomson Allan if Dundee, and Donald Ford also made the trip.

He wasn't a defender though ...he competed with billy Bremner , davie hay etc for places in that team more than Holton and Buchan

[Ray_]

He wasn't a defender though ...he competed with billy Bremner , davie hay etc for places in that team more than Holton and Buchan

He was a defender and captain under the previous Scotland manager, Tommy Docherty.

[ancient hibee]

He was a defender and captain under the previous Scotland manager, Tommy Docherty.


Who compared him favourably to Bobby Moore.Pat seldom played in his best position for us which of course was sweeper which makes his excellent performances in midfield even more praiseworthy.

[Franck Stanton]

Stanton was an international class midfield player and a WORLD class sweeper. However, Blackley could only play sweeper so to accommodate him St Pat played midfield. As has already been stated, If he played for either of the ugly sisters he would have won a lot more international caps.

[bigwheel]

He was a defender and captain under the previous Scotland manager, Tommy Docherty.

By 73/74 Stanton was a high performing midfielder and would have been considered in that role more than a sweeper ...

[johnrebus]

My favourite memory of Pat is the match played at Hampden as a benefit match for the Ibrox disaster victims in 1971. Scotland V Rangers/Celtic Select.


Pat nicked the ball off someone in midfield then glided effortless past a couple of others before spraying a perfectly weighted ball out to the wing.

Bobby Charlton stood and stared at him. hands on hips, as if to say, 'who the **** is this guy?'


:not worth

[Stantons Angel]

My favourite memory of Pat is the match played at Hampden as a benefit match for the Ibrox disaster victims in 1971. Scotland V Rangers/Celtic Select.


Pat nicked the ball off someone in midfield then glided effortless past a couple of others before spraying a perfectly weighted ball out to the wing.

Bobby Charlton stood and stared at him. hands on hips, as if to say, 'who the **** is this guy?'


:not worth


I was at the game that night and remember seeing Charlton and Best playing and thinking just what a player Charlton was. He and Best seemed to have a telepathic understanding and when Charlton had the ball he didnt need to look up he knew where Best would be. I was so impressed by him that night.

[leggeto]

Here's one for the older heeds,who was the better player sir pat or le god

[brog]

He was a defender and captain under the previous Scotland manager, Tommy Docherty.

Quite correct & as Ancient Hibee says TD said Pat was better than Bobby Moore. Unfortunately Pat had to pull out of a close season tour to South America for family reasons which I won't disclose here. Docherty then did a Levein & took the huff & I don't think picked Pat again. By the time Willie Ormond took over Pat was seen exclusively as a midfield player & was competing against established & excellent players such as Bremner. As other posters have said Blackley went to the WC in 1974 & played in the first game. He was however treated shamefully by wee Willie who bowed to pressure from Buchan & Willie Morgan, they said they were going home if not selected for game 2. 16 caps for Pat was a shameful return for a wonderful player.

[allmodcons]

Thanks for replies, actually thought he might have been injured, but looks like he was just omitted.
Can't believe he only won 16 caps for Scotland (41 less than Roy Aitken ffs)!!!

[Jonnyboy]

Here's one for the older heeds,who was the better player sir pat or le god

Never easy comparing players from different era's. If you go by their impact while playing for Hibs then Pat's the man.

[Ray_]

[QUOTE=bigwheel;3832719]By 73/74 Stanton was a high performing midfielder and would have been considered in that role more than a sweeper ...[/QUOTE

That wouldn't fit in with the fact that Pat played in midfield for Hibs when he won the Scotland's player of the year in 1970, he remained in the same position for Hibs when he captained Scotland, from the back, under Tommy Docherty in 1971 and throughout 1972 [Docherty took the MU post December 1972].

It was well known in that era that he could play in both roles, for both club and country and although he played a vast majority of his time with Hibs in midfield, most, if not all, of his Scotland caps in the seventies was at the back. Docherty was the only Scotland manager to have the guts to play a non-old firm player on a regular basis, when he had options in Glasgow.

[Jonnyboy]

[QUOTE=bigwheel;3832719]By 73/74 Stanton was a high performing midfielder and would have been considered in that role more than a sweeper ...[/QUOTE

That wouldn't fit in with the fact that Pat played in midfield for Hibs when he won the Scotland's player of the year in 1970, he remained in the same position for Hibs when he captained Scotland, from the back, under Tommy Docherty in 1971 and throughout 1972 [Docherty took the MU post December 1972].

It was well known in that era that he could play in both roles, for both club and country and although he played a vast majority of his time with Hibs in midfield, most, if not all, of his Scotland caps in the seventies was at the back. Docherty was the only Scotland manager to have the guts to play a non-old firm player on a regular basis, when he had options in Glasgow.

:agree:

Pat was an outstanding player who wore the wrong club colours

[Ray_]

My favourite memory of Pat is the match played at Hampden as a benefit match for the Ibrox disaster victims in 1971. Scotland V Rangers/Celtic Select.


Pat nicked the ball off someone in midfield then glided effortless past a couple of others before spraying a perfectly weighted ball out to the wing.

Bobby Charlton stood and stared at him. hands on hips, as if to say, 'who the **** is this guy?'


:not worth

I remember that, mind you, Charlton and Best sprayed enough passes themselves that night :not worth [2-1 to Scotland and what a great game of football to boot].

[--------]

Here's one for the older heeds,who was the better player sir pat or le god


Stanton. The best player I've ever seen in a Hibs shirt.

Franck was a terrific player, but Paddy was just something else.

[O'Rourke3]

King Pat. Still not sure I could even talk to the man.... :notworty:

[Hibrandenburg]

Said it before and I'll say it again "if Pat was German then Beckenbauer would have struggled to get in that German team."

[clerriehibs]

He won the player of the year award in 1970, but his talent indicated that should have gone anyway. Pat was captain of the team that came second in a Scottish League that contained far more quality than it does today. Celtic regularly got to the later reaches of what is now the champions league, Rangers won the Cup Winners Cup the previous season, beating a Bayern Munich team that contained much of the 1974 World Cup winning team on the way.

Scottish football was littered with star names, Dalglish, McGrain, Jardine, Andy Gray, Ian Wallace, Ray Stewart, Alan Hanson, Gordon Strachan, Steve Archiebald, to name but a few and I didn't even mention any from Scotland's second best team, from which Pat Stanton topped the lot.

Bit of a mix of eras there, methinks. Few of the above are Stanton's time.

[Ray_]

Bit of a mix of eras there, methinks. Few of the above are Stanton's time.

:confused: The only one to be pushing it a bit is Ray Stewart who played for DU in 76. The Celtic pair played in the 72 league cup final, Sandy Jardine played for Rangers in Barcelona the same year, Andy Grey joined Villa in 75 after shining for DU for a couple of years, Ian Wallace spent three years in Scottish football before joining Coventry in 76, Gordon Strachan joined Aberdeen in 77 after four years at Dundee, Alan Hanson spent four years at the jags before joining Liverpool in 77 [I remember him scoring an OG at ER at the end of 74, 2-2 draw] and Steve Archiebald joined Aberdeen from Clyde in 77 after first playing for Fergie with East Stirling four years earlier.

[greenpaper55]

Here's one for the older heeds,who was the better player sir pat or le god

Pat was best IMO, for consistency year in year out he was hard to beat, he always had pace and i remember reading back in the dark ages that the players had a sprint competition and Pat won easily and that was when we had Arthur Duncan who was no slouch, Pat would be worth a fortune these days.

[Bill Milne]

An old story, if Pat had played for Smeltic or the Old Huns, he would have got over 100 Scottish caps.

[JimBHibees]

Pat was best IMO, for consistency year in year out he was hard to beat, he always had pace and i remember reading back in the dark ages that the players had a sprint competition and Pat won easily and that was when we had Arthur Duncan who was no slouch, Pat would be worth a fortune these days.

I would genuinely find that hard to believe.

[brog]

:confused: The only one to be pushing it a bit is Ray Stewart who played for DU in 76. The Celtic pair played in the 72 league cup final, Sandy Jardine played for Rangers in Barcelona the same year, Andy Grey joined Villa in 75 after shining for DU for a couple of years, Ian Wallace spent three years in Scottish football before joining Coventry in 76, Gordon Strachan joined Aberdeen in 77 after four years at Dundee, Alan Hanson spent four years at the jags before joining Liverpool in 77 [I remember him scoring an OG at ER at the end of 74, 2-2 draw] and Steve Archiebald joined Aberdeen from Clyde in 77 after first playing for Fergie with East Stirling four years earlier.

Indeed, Andy Gray's last home game for DU was against us at Tannadice & I clearly recall him heading a net bound header from Pat off the line. We lost 1-0 but it was one way traffic in last few mins with Pat almost playing striker for us & Gray being deployed as an extra Centre Half!

[hhibs]

I would genuinely find that hard to believe.


I am with you on his,no way would Pat out sprint Arthur Duncan.

[Jonnyboy]

I am with you on his,no way would Pat out sprint Arthur Duncan.

Only if he tied Arthur's legs together first and even then it would be close :greengrin

[McD]

:confused: The only one to be pushing it a bit is Ray Stewart who played for DU in 76. The Celtic pair played in the 72 league cup final, Sandy Jardine played for Rangers in Barcelona the same year, Andy Grey joined Villa in 75 after shining for DU for a couple of years, Ian Wallace spent three years in Scottish football before joining Coventry in 76, Gordon Strachan joined Aberdeen in 77 after four years at Dundee, Alan Hanson spent four years at the jags before joining Liverpool in 77 [I remember him scoring an OG at ER at the end of 74, 2-2 draw] and Steve Archiebald joined Aberdeen from Clyde in 77 after first playing for Fergie with East Stirling four years earlier.

To be fair, Strachan was probably not quite there in 74, he was born in 57 so would only have been 17

[Ray_]

To be fair, Strachan was probably not quite there in 74, he was born in 57 so would only have been 17

He actually signed for Dundee soon after ET became Hibs manager in 1971, he made his first team debut for them in 1974 and was a regular by 1975.

[IWasThere2016]

To answer an earlier post:

1) Stanton
2) Sauzee

There will never be another Pat Stanton.

[ancient hibee]

To answer an earlier post:

1) Stanton
2) Sauzee

There will never be another Pat Stanton.


Sad but true.

[McD]

He actually signed for Dundee soon after ET became Hibs manager in 1971, he made his first team debut for them in 1974 and was a regular by 1975.


Ah cool, always happy to be corrected :aok:

[calmac12000]

Because he did not play for Celtic or Rangers!
Very cynical, but nail head hit.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mepPmVNnTK0

:not worth

[superfurryhibby]

:confused: The only one to be pushing it a bit is Ray Stewart who played for DU in 76. The Celtic pair played in the 72 league cup final, Sandy Jardine played for Rangers in Barcelona the same year, Andy Grey joined Villa in 75 after shining for DU for a couple of years, Ian Wallace spent three years in Scottish football before joining Coventry in 76, Gordon Strachan joined Aberdeen in 77 after four years at Dundee, Alan Hanson spent four years at the jags before joining Liverpool in 77 [I remember him scoring an OG at ER at the end of 74, 2-2 draw] and Steve Archiebald joined Aberdeen from Clyde in 77 after first playing for Fergie with East Stirling four years earlier.

The last five guys you quoted Ray were all in the early stages of a career in 74 and were more prominent by 78-82 world cups.

In midfield Stanton competed for a place with top quality, english based players, Bremner, Lorimer etc. I'm sure he was named in the initial 40 but never made the cut for the final 22.

[superfurryhibby]

1 GK David Harvey 07 Feb 1948 Leeds United (ENG)
2 DF Sandy Jardine 31 Dec 1948 Glasgow Rangers
3 DF Danny McGrain 01 May 1950 Glasgow Celtic
4 MD Billy Bremner 09 Dec 1942 Leeds United (ENG)
5 DF James Holton 11 Apr 1951 Manchester United (ENG)
6 DF John Blackley 12 May 1948 Hibernian
7 MD Jimmy Johnstone 30 Sep 1944 Glasgow Celtic
8 FW Kenny Dalglish 04 Mar 1951 Glasgow Celtic
9 FW Joe Jordan 15 Dec 1951 Leeds United (ENG)
10 MD David Hay 29 Jan 1948 Glasgow Celtic
11 FW Peter Lorimer 14 Dec 1946 Leeds United (ENG)
12 GK Thompson Allan 05 Oct 1946 Dundee FC
13 GK Jim Stewart 09 Mar 1954 Kilmarnock
14 DF Martin Buchan 06 Mar 1949 Manchester United (ENG)
15 MD Peter Cormack 17 Jul 1946 Liverpool (ENG)
16 DF William Donachie 05 Oct 1951 Manchester City (ENG)
17 MD Donald Ford 25 Oct 1944 Heart of Midlothian
18 MD Thomas Hutchinson 22 Sep 1947 Coventry City (ENG)
19 FW Denis Law 24 Feb 1940 Manchester City (ENG)
20 FW William Morgan 02 Oct 1944 Manchester United (ENG)
21 DF Gordon McQueen 26 Jun 1952 Leeds United (ENG)
22 DF Eric Schaedler 06 Aug 1949 Hibernian

Coach: Willie Ormond 23 Feb 1927

I would question picking three goalkeepers. I also didn't realise Peter Cormack made the cut and I wonder HTF "jug ears" Ford made the squad, A pretty impressive squad, oh to have players of that quality around today.

[stu in nottingham]

A pretty impressive squad, oh to have players of that quality around today.

I've still got a vinyl album Scotland Scotland made by the 1974 squad. Denis Law performing a duet with Rod Stewart etc!

http://www.discogs.com/Scotland-World-Cup-Squad-Scotland-Scotland/release/779017

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TGisiI_dI2E/TAi0UmykpyI/AAAAAAAACuA/gBdA-jFEFMg/s400/1.SCOT+LP+74.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TGisiI_dI2E/TAoBA5XgYlI/AAAAAAAACuI/ixLpiJraxCU/s1600/1.sss1.jpg

[Ray_]

The last five guys you quoted Ray were all in the early stages of a career in 74 and were more prominent by 78-82 world cups.

In midfield Stanton competed for a place with top quality, english based players, Bremner, Lorimer etc. I'm sure he was named in the initial 40 but never made the cut for the final 22.

You seem to have lost the context of this particular part of the conversation, it had nothing to do with world cup rivals, it was to do with the quality of player that was within Scottish football when Hibs finished second in the Scottish league in 1974 & 75.

I.E. earlier posts, Celtic were still reaching the latter stages of the European Cup, Rangers still had many of their cup winning cup squad and Scottish football was "littered" with talented players. There were others that I could have mentioned, the ones I did were playing then and they were the first from the top of me head. Do keep up :greengrin

[ancient hibee]

1 GK David Harvey 07 Feb 1948 Leeds United (ENG)
2 DF Sandy Jardine 31 Dec 1948 Glasgow Rangers
3 DF Danny McGrain 01 May 1950 Glasgow Celtic
4 MD Billy Bremner 09 Dec 1942 Leeds United (ENG)
5 DF James Holton 11 Apr 1951 Manchester United (ENG)
6 DF John Blackley 12 May 1948 Hibernian
7 MD Jimmy Johnstone 30 Sep 1944 Glasgow Celtic
8 FW Kenny Dalglish 04 Mar 1951 Glasgow Celtic
9 FW Joe Jordan 15 Dec 1951 Leeds United (ENG)
10 MD David Hay 29 Jan 1948 Glasgow Celtic
11 FW Peter Lorimer 14 Dec 1946 Leeds United (ENG)
12 GK Thompson Allan 05 Oct 1946 Dundee FC
13 GK Jim Stewart 09 Mar 1954 Kilmarnock
14 DF Martin Buchan 06 Mar 1949 Manchester United (ENG)
15 MD Peter Cormack 17 Jul 1946 Liverpool (ENG)
16 DF William Donachie 05 Oct 1951 Manchester City (ENG)
17 MD Donald Ford 25 Oct 1944 Heart of Midlothian
18 MD Thomas Hutchinson 22 Sep 1947 Coventry City (ENG)
19 FW Denis Law 24 Feb 1940 Manchester City (ENG)
20 FW William Morgan 02 Oct 1944 Manchester United (ENG)
21 DF Gordon McQueen 26 Jun 1952 Leeds United (ENG)
22 DF Eric Schaedler 06 Aug 1949 Hibernian

Coach: Willie Ormond 23 Feb 1927

I would question picking three goalkeepers. I also didn't realise Peter Cormack made the cut and I wonder HTF "jug ears" Ford made the squad, A pretty impressive squad, oh to have players of that quality around today.

In fact Ford was playing very well at the time and should have played instead of Dalglish who had a poor tournament.Ormond of course had lost his trust in Johnstone and failed to play him.

[One Day]

To answer an earlier post:

1) Stanton
2) Sauzee

There will never be another Pat Stanton.

Other players come and go, the KING will always be the KING