Hibs Managers' Debuts

[Hibbyradge]

It occurred to me yesterday that unlike most clubs, Hibs don't seem to get the usual lift when a new manager arrives, so I decided to do a bit of research.

Make your own mind up.

Pat Fenlon's first game was abandoned, but then we had to wait 7 weeks before our first win.

Calderwood lost his first 3 games, but Yogi's debut was a win against St Mirren.

Mixu beat ICT at ER, but that was only 2 days after his arrival and the next game, against Hearts, was a defeat.

Collins first game was a home draw with Killie followed by 3 wins, a draw and another win. Certainly the most successful start we've had in recent years.

Mowbray lost his first game against Killie, but surprisingly. to me at least, Williamson won his first 2 games before predictably, losing to Hearts.

Frank Sauzee lost against Dunfermline and with him in charge, we only won once in 15.

Not a great record by any means.

Will Terry Butcher buck the trend?

[BroxburnHibee]

Pretty obvious isn't it.

Bring back JC :devil:

[Hibbyradge]

Pretty obvious isn't it.

Bring back JC :devil:

:agree:

And give him Mowbray's team to manage. :wink:

[MKHIBEE]

It occurred to me yesterday that unlike most clubs, Hibs don't seem to get the usual lift when a new manager arrives, so I decided to do a bit of research.

Make your own mind up.

Pat Fenlon's first game was abandoned, but then we had to wait 7 weeks before our first win.

Calderwood lost his first 3 games, but Yogi's debut was a win against St Mirren.

Mixu beat ICT at ER, but that was only 2 days after his arrival and the next game, against Hearts, was a defeat.

Collins first game was a home draw with Killie followed by 3 wins, a draw and another win. Certainly the most successful start we've had in recent years.

Mowbray lost his first game against Killie, but surprisingly. to me at least, Williamson won his first 2 games before predictably, losing to Hearts.

Frank Sauzee lost against Dunfermline and with him in charge, we only won once in 15.

Not a great record by any means.

Will Terry Butcher buck the trend?


If he doesnt I am sure Hibs.netters will be patient, understanding and focus on the positives.

[SMAXXA]

It occurred to me yesterday that unlike most clubs, Hibs don't seem to get the usual lift when a new manager arrives, so I decided to do a bit of research.

Make your own mind up.

Pat Fenlon's first game was abandoned, but then we had to wait 7 weeks before our first win.

Calderwood lost his first 3 games, but Yogi's debut was a win against St Mirren.

Mixu beat ICT at ER, but that was only 2 days after his arrival and the next game, against Hearts, was a defeat.

Collins first game was a home draw with Killie followed by 3 wins, a draw and another win. Certainly the most successful start we've had in recent years.

Mowbray lost his first game against Killie, but surprisingly. to me at least, Williamson won his first 2 games before predictably, losing to Hearts.

Frank Sauzee lost against Dunfermline and with him in charge, we only won once in 15.

Not a great record by any means.

Will Terry Butcher buck the trend?

Do these stats actually back up your point about us not getting a lift? Mixed bag no? Certainly no trends there for me

btw we were Wining at Motherwell when the game was abandoned which you didn't add

[Hibbyradge]

Do these stats actually back up your point about us not getting a lift? Mixed bag no? Certainly no trends there for me

btw we were Wining at Motherwell when the game was abandoned which you didn't add

I didn't draw any conclusions. I said, "make your own mind up".




btw we were Wining at Motherwell when the game was abandoned which you didn't add

Yeah, we were winning 1 - 0 at half time. However, neither you or I know how that game would have finished (maybe 6 - 6?) so it's useless for analysing debuts.

[Sas_The_Hibby]

If he doesnt I am sure Hibs.netters will be patient, understanding and focus on the positives.

:greengrin

Some of them are sharpening their daggers as we speak... :wink:

[Spike Mandela]

Win, draw or defeat today won't really tell us anything. Improved form over the period to the transfer window including a win in the cup might suggest TB has given us a bounce.

[Blaster]

:agree:

And give him Mowbray's team to manage. :wink:

Was thinking about that old argument this morning. Does that mean if butcher wins the Scottish this season it was Fenlons team?
:greengrin

[Lendo]

Was Mowbray's first game not in the Inter Toto Cup? Sure we lost and it pished with torrential rain.

[erin go bragh]

It occurred to me yesterday that unlike most clubs, Hibs don't seem to get the usual lift when a new manager arrives, so I decided to do a bit of research.

Make your own mind up.

Pat Fenlon's first game was abandoned, but then we had to wait 7 weeks before our first win.

Calderwood lost his first 3 games, but Yogi's debut was a win against St Mirren.

Mixu beat ICT at ER, but that was only 2 days after his arrival and the next game, against Hearts, was a defeat.

Collins first game was a home draw with Killie followed by 3 wins, a draw and another win. Certainly the most successful start we've had in recent years.

Mowbray lost his first game against Killie, but surprisingly. to me at least, Williamson won his first 2 games before predictably, losing to Hearts.

Frank Sauzee lost against Dunfermline and with him in charge, we only won once in 15.

Not a great record by any means.

Will Terry Butcher buck the trend?

Reff sent Luna off early doors at Dunfermline for next to nothing , we had a great backing that game too . "Sauzee , they couldnt beat Sauzee "

Ggtth

[Alfred E Newman]

Willie McFarlane 2-0 at Tynie. :thumbsup:

[Ronniekirk]

[QUOTE=Hibbyradge;3815317]I didn't draw any conclusions. I said, "make your own mind up".

You may not have drawn any conclusions but a draw was the only thing we were getting today and when Hefferman went off it was odds on it would be 0. 0 , big tell needs to send Stevie m on a few Spying Missions for Strikers as there was a lot of Subterfuge out there today .

[frazeHFC]

Yeah, we were winning 1 - 0 at half time. However, neither you or I know how that game would have finished (maybe 6 - 6?) so it's useless for analysing debuts.


This, cause in the replay we were also 1-0 up at half time iirc, however went on to lose the game.

[Ray_]

Willie McFarlane 2-0 at Tynie. :thumbsup:

He followed it up in his first couple of months with a 2-1 win at darkheid [Stanton & Hamilton] & 3-1 at Ibrox [marinello x2 & McBride]. Plus at school, I won the sweep for him being named as manager [I did buy about five goes and put his name down on all of them, does that mean I was once in the know? :) ] :not worth


He bought Jim Blair though :boo hoo:

[IberianHibernian]

Willie McFarlane 2-0 at Tynie. :thumbsup:I remember being at a Derby ( August / September ) where we won 2v0 with 2 late goals at School End at least one by Cropley . I was also at cup win in 1971 ( 2 v 1 Hazel and Duncan maybe ) . Same season ? In those days of only 2 league Derbies per season , venue alternation was strict so New Year 71 must have been Tynecastle ( cause we all know where 1973 match was played ! ) so cup game ( 71 ) must have a few weeks after league match at Tynecastle and league win in August / September in 71 ( under Turnbull ? ) r 2 years earlier under MacFarlane ?

[theonlywayisup]

Do these stats actually back up your point about us not getting a lift? Mixed bag no? Certainly no trends there for me

btw we were Wining at Motherwell when the game was abandoned which you didn't add

Yes and no! I actually think it says a lot, when you consider the quality of the players we had and their confidence levels. The trend that is Hibernian football team, saw an upward trend with McLeish and Mowbray, stagnation and/or slightly dipping with Williamson, Collins, Mixu and Yogi and downward trend with Sauzee, Calderwood and Fenlon. You can't go on the result of the first game, more look at the first 6 or 7 games.

Williamson, who inherited a reasonably good but low confidence squad from Sauzee, won his first 2 games, the first one being a must-win relegation match, before losing to Hearts. An initial boost, before returning back to poor displays that were common all during Sauzee‘s reign and at the end of McLeish‘s. Williamson transitioned the team from relatively high wage earners to young inexperienced, though skillful players. However, we stagnated during his time in charge.


Once, Williamson decided to leave (i.e. not sacked), Mowbray then inherited this group of talented young players and had them playing great football from the start, but unluckily, lost his first game against Killie - we played great football that day and were unlucky to lose. Thereafter, Mowbray had us playing great football, but results especially away from home were not always great. An upward trend, resulting in him being poached by West Brom.


Once, Mowbray decided to leave (i.e. not sacked), Collins took over this experienced talented group of players and started with a home draw with Killie, followed by 3 wins, a draw and another win. A good start, by Hibs records, led to a League Cup win on a magic day, but thereafter the rot set in, with Collins making some baffling decisions. We had plateaued and were beginning to dip at the end of Collin's reign.


Once, Collins decided to leave (i.e. not sacked), Mixu took over a slightly less talented group of players that had only won one of their previous ten games and had slipped into the bottom half of the SPL, and beat ICT at ER, but the next game, against Hearts, was a defeat. Mixu made Hibs hard to beat with some anti-football and the fans lost patience, despite the top six finishes. We had again plateaued during Mixu's reign.


Once, Mixu was removed despite the top six finishes, Yogi took over a reasonable group of players and improved what he had resulting in a debut win against St Mirren, followed by a first half of a season that was good. However, the latter half of the season was poor and we have been struggling ever since, especially at Easter Road. By the end of Yogi's reign, the downward spiral had began.


We then made two poor managerial selections, both of which has resulted in the quality of the squad diminishing, allied to managers that seemed incapable of inspiring their players. Hibs were now in freefall.


Calderwood inherited a team that had little creativity and pace and made it worse, resulting in losses for his first 3 games. Hibs displays during his era were typically poor. The downard spiral continued.


Pat Fenlon, inherited a team that had little creativity and pace and made it worse, with his team having to wait 7 weeks before our first win. Displays were generally poor and without a special player, that was Leigh Griffths, we would have been relegation candidates in his only full season. The downard spiral continuing though the rate of decent slowed down.


Sauzee was unfortunately the wrong man at the wrong time. We needed someone with greater experience to develop a reasonably good squad inherited from McLeish, but were beginning to under-perform.

We have, hopefully, hit the bottom and we will now see an upward trend in performances and results. That will not happen overnight as the above has shown. We have to give Terry time to develop a winning mentality and improve displays. It will take time.

[Ray_]

I remember being at a Derby ( August / September ) where we won 2v0 with 2 late goals at School End at least one by Cropley . I was also at cup win in 1971 ( 2 v 1 Hazel and Duncan maybe ) . Same season ? In those days of only 2 league Derbies per season , venue alternation was strict so New Year 71 must have been Tynecastle ( cause we all know where 1973 match was played ! ) so cup game ( 71 ) must have a few weeks after league match at Tynecastle and league win in August / September in 71 ( under Turnbull ? ) r 2 years earlier under MacFarlane ?


The 2-0 league with Willie Mac was in 1969 and the cup game was, as you said, 1971 [Dave Ewing].

[Famous Fiver]

I disagree completely that Sauzee was the wrong man at the wrong time. I would have followed (and still would) follow that guy and his team anywhere. He inherited a team from McLeish on which big money(comparatively) had been spent and was breaking up. He didn't get nearly long enough. I was at the Ayr United semi which was a bad night, BUT, he didn't preside over a heavy cup final derby defeat, a seven goal home Europa League defeat or a home cup exit to the paedos, and yet he got emptied, when Fenlon ( who presided over all these things, didn't. Sauzee was not called Le God for nothing. I'd have him back at Easter Road in a heartbeat.

[Hibby Bairn]

Excellent summary theonlywayisup.

[theonlywayisup]

I disagree completely that Sauzee was the wrong man at the wrong time. I would have followed (and still would) follow that guy and his team anywhere. He inherited a team from McLeish on which big money(comparatively) had been spent and was breaking up. He didn't get nearly long enough. I was at the Ayr United semi which was a bad night, BUT, he didn't preside over a heavy cup final derby defeat, a seven goal home Europa League defeat or a home cup exit to the paedos, and yet he got emptied, when Fenlon ( who presided over all these things, didn't. Sauzee was not called Le God for nothing. I'd have him back at Easter Road in a heartbeat.

Le God is, and always will be, Le God. One of the Hibernian greats and probably the greatest Hibs player I have ever seen.

But, he was not ready to be Hibs manager. Since he left as Hibs manager, he has not gone on to manage any other football club at any level. A great player, but that does not mean he will be a great manager. With a team struggling, we needed a more experienced manager to steady the ship. Like I said, the wrong man at the wrong time. However, with Sauzee as an assistant to a more experienced manager (possibly Williamson), Sauzee could have grown into the role and become an ever greater Hibs legend.

I am not disagreeing that he didn't get much time and I don't disagree that Fenlon had much worse results (and thank goodness he has gone), but we were being dragged into a relegation dog-fight and we needed someone with experience to see us through. Hence the call to Williamson.

This is not a dig at Sauzee. Le God is, and always will be, Le God. There is only one Sauzee.

[Alfred E Newman]

I remember being at a Derby ( August / September ) where we won 2v0 with 2 late goals at School End at least one by Cropley . I was also at cup win in 1971 ( 2 v 1 Hazel and Duncan maybe ) . Same season ? In those days of only 2 league Derbies per season , venue alternation was strict so New Year 71 must have been Tynecastle ( cause we all know where 1973 match was played ! ) so cup game ( 71 ) must have a few weeks after league match at Tynecastle and league win in August / September in 71 ( under Turnbull ? ) r 2 years earlier under MacFarlane ?

The McFarlane derby was won by 2 late goals at the school end , the second by Johnny Hamilton. I remember it well as I finished up standing on top of a barrier and falling backwards into a mass of bodies. Great days!

[rcarter1]

:agree:

And give him Mowbray's team to manage. :wink:

:tee hee:

Anyone got a Tardis?