Were we too soft under Fenlon

[MikeyG]

When the big games came up we didn't win many of them when it really counted. There is no doubt that Fenlon was, and is a gentleman. However, was his team mentally tough enough when it mattered?

When I feel that I am up against it, I give everything I have. When players tried to intimidate me I would fight back twice as hard, and give as good as I got. I have been brought up to be mentally tough with a smile. I thought nothing of a wee knee in the back, or a pull of a shirt to give me an edge. 50/50's with the keeper I would always give 100%, so he thinks twice the next time. It is a part of the game.

I don't know if we possess that strength. I am sure that Butcher does possess that ability, and it is a large slice of what we need.

[Glesgahibby]

I remember a statement from pat about a year ago suggesting we where to "nice" i think was the word he used to teams at er.It would be fair to say there is more fight in this squad especially away from home than there was last season.confidence and expression is the real issue I think,I also think butcher would address this issue very quickly.

[Alex Trager]

See a lot of people would agree with you and in terms of maybe a few hearts games and the two cup finals I'd agree with you. But I honestly felt that the one thing he brought to Hibs was the ability to grind out a result, for example last season against Dundee united, when Skacel hit the bar and stuff Hibs stood tall and win the game. So in terms of being on the back foot whilst being up and NOT caving in I thought Fenlon brought a strength to the team. Hopefully butcher can push it forward but anyway that is my opinion

[The Modfather]

See a lot of people would agree with you and in terms of maybe a few hearts games and the two cup finals I'd agree with you. But I honestly felt that the one thing he brought to Hibs was the ability to grind out a result, for example last season against Dundee united, when Skacel hit the bar and stuff Hibs stood tall and win the game. So in terms of being on the back foot whilst being up and NOT caving in I thought Fenlon brought a strength to the team. Hopefully butcher can push it forward but anyway that is my opinion

Not sure I agree to be honest. I felt we had a tendency to simply park the bus, which I suppose you could argue is a form of grinding out a result.

While not judging his whole tenure on 1 game. The new year derby at Tynecastle made Harry Potters teams look like the Harlem Globe Trotters. 0-0, but two holding midfielders that rarely ventured from the edge of our box and the other 3 midfielders scared of the half way line. Griffiths was chasing down hoofs into the corner with literally not a Hibs player within 40 yards of him at times.

I still wake up in the night with cold sweats thinking about that performance!

[MikeyG]

I remember a statement from pat about a year ago suggesting we where to "nice" i think was the word he used to teams at er.It would be fair to say there is more fight in this squad especially away from home than there was last season.confidence and expression is the real issue I think,I also think butcher would address this issue very quickly.

I agree that confidence and expression are big issues also. A crunching tackle gets me on my feet as much as a silky pass. They are few and far between. We need to toughen up and be harder physically and mentally. The football has actually improved, and to have nothing to show from the last two games is tough.

McPake puts his head threw the ball, Hanlon puts his body infront of Stevenson, and McGivern stays strong with McManus, and it's a different story. We need to be tougher.

There are obviously other parts of the game were improvement is needed but for me this is a big one.

That's why I think Butcher is a good choice. Time will tell.

[Glesgahibby]

I agree that confidence and expression are big issues also. A crunching tackle gets me on my feet as much as a silky pass. They are few and far between. We need to toughen up and be harder physically and mentally. The football has actually improved, and to have nothing to show from the last two games is tough.

McPake puts his head threw the ball, Hanlon puts his body infront of Stevenson, and McGivern stays strong with McManus, and it's a different story. We need to be tougher.

There are obviously other parts of the game were improvement is needed but for me this is a big one.

That's why I think Butcher is a good choice. Time will tell.
Agreed but we really now need to have the same back four every week to get some stability.
A wee bit of luck required on the injury front would help.

[greenlex]

No just to negative.

[MyJo]

Tactically naive and depressingly negative, yes.

Weak, no.

[Don Giovanni]

I agree that confidence and expression are big issues also. A crunching tackle gets me on my feet as much as a silky pass. They are few and far between. We need to toughen up and be harder physically and mentally. The football has actually improved, and to have nothing to show from the last two games is tough.

McPake puts his head threw the ball, Hanlon puts his body infront of Stevenson, and McGivern stays strong with McManus, and it's a different story. We need to be tougher.

There are obviously other parts of the game were improvement is needed but for me this is a big one.

That's why I think Butcher is a good choice. Time will tell.

Whilst much of the above is correct IMO the biggest issue in the last few games is the lack of goals. Whilst defensive mistakes have been punished recently my major concern during Pat's time at the club was the failure to create enough chances.

To answer the OP, I think Pat did toughen us up.
However, that can only take you so far & Pat was unable to take us any further. IMO Pat leaves the club in a better shape than he inherited it but it was still the right decision to move on (actually I think that came at the beginning of August TBH).

[Alex Trager]

Not sure I agree to be honest. I felt we had a tendency to simply park the bus, which I suppose you could argue is a form of grinding out a result.

While not judging his whole tenure on 1 game. The new year derby at Tynecastle made Harry Potters teams look like the Harlem Globe Trotters. 0-0, but two holding midfielders that rarely ventured from the edge of our box and the other 3 midfielders scared of the half way line. Griffiths was chasing down hoofs into the corner with literally not a Hibs player within 40 yards of him at times.

I still wake up in the night with cold sweats thinking about that performance!

I don't want to sound as though my whole point is based on the one game, I just simply can't recall other games that we managed to get through. Parking the bus is something I would agree with, whether that is strong or not is down to personal opinion

[MikeyG]

Whilst much of the above is correct IMO the biggest issue in the last few games is the lack of goals. Whilst defensive mistakes have been punished recently my major concern during Pat's time at the club was the failure to create enough chances.

To answer the OP, I think Pat did toughen us up.
However, that can only take you so far & Pat was unable to take us any further. IMO Pat leaves the club in a better shape than he inherited it but it was still the right decision to move on (actually I think that came at the beginning of August TBH).

Definitely better, no doubt about it.

Once everyone is fit we have a decent squad, although I still think we need to improve upfront. We need leaders on and off the park that demand mental and physical toughness. McGivern does go to sleep now and then. Not acceptable. Players not taking control such as the first against Inverness. Thomson outstanding against Celtic, and the befter player against Brown can hardly find a player in green again Hearts. Once Hearts scored against the run of play we became pussy cats. We are not mentally tough enough nor a physical side. You always know your in a battle against Inverness.

We are not Barcelona, so need to be physically hard and mentally tough. Did it against Celtic. We were switched on and tenacious in the tackle. Need that conviction every week.

[MikeyG]

Definitely better, no doubt about it.

Once everyone is fit we have a decent squad, although I still think we need to improve upfront. We need leaders on and off the park that demand mental and physical toughness. McGivern does go to sleep now and then. Not acceptable. Players not taking control such as the first against Inverness. Thomson outstanding against Celtic, and the befter player against Brown can hardly find a player in green again Hearts. Once Hearts scored against the run of play we became pussy cats. We are not mentally tough enough nor a physical side. You always know your in a battle against Inverness.

We are not Barcelona, so need to be physically hard and mentally tough. Did it against Celtic. We were switched on and tenacious in the tackle. Need that conviction every week.

Thanks Hibs for proving that every word in these posts were correct. Big game, new manager to impress, and the same outcome. McGivern sleeping and Thomson misplacing passes. Mentally and physically weak and devoid of leaders.

Terry is the man to stop the rot, and get the team doing the right thing. His team are clearly well organised and everyone knows their role within the side. Think he will bring the best out of underachievers like Vine. There is definitely a player in there. Unfortunately, we have only rarely seen it. He played very well in Malmo and does possess ability. Not sure about Collins. He does work hard but not sure he is a finisher. I think he may score a few in the air but we have no width.

It is actually a good time to come in as a manager as the only way is up. Hope it's today.

[Bostonhibby]

Yes, physically and mentally on most occasions. Despite the statements about never being intimidated etc again.........
Onward and upward.

[Hibercelona]

I wouldn't describe us as soft.

Tough. But without the football.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

If it wasnae for Griffiths he would go down as the worst manager we've ever had, even with Leigh he wasnae that far away from it. Seemingly he is a nice guy though so thats fine.

[Houchy]

Tactically naive and depressingly negative, yes.

Weak, no.

This^ although I think we were weak also and we'll suffer for a long time thanks to PF *****ing our best playing budget since the MacLeish days.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

We weren't asking this question after the Celtic game...

What Fenlon's teams' lacked was consistency and I don't think we can underestimate the loss of mcPake's form and leadership. He and Nelson might not be silky but they've got something about them - although maybe injury and form has robbed McPake of a bit of confidence.

[blackpoolhibs]

We weren't asking this question after the Celtic game...

What Fenlon's teams' lacked was consistency and I don't think we can underestimate the loss of mcPake's form and leadership. He and Nelson might not be silky but they've got something about them - although maybe injury and form has robbed McPake of a bit of confidence.

Thats correct, and after the infamous St Mirren game he was the new fergie, but the rest of the time we were.

[Hibercelona]

We weren't asking this question after the Celtic game...

What Fenlon's teams' lacked was consistency and I don't think we can underestimate the loss of mcPake's form and leadership. He and Nelson might not be silky but they've got something about them - although maybe injury and form has robbed McPake of a bit of confidence.


We had no problems with consistency mate. Not from what I could see. :confused:

We were consistently scheidt. :greengrin

[Viva_Palmeiras]

:greengrin
We had no problems with consistency mate. Not from what I could see. :confused:

We were consistently scheidt. :greengrin

[Hibs7]

A team of marshmallows !!!

[basehibby]

I don't think softness was the problem under Fenlon - more a lack of creative options and pace and a tendency towards negative formations (2 defensive central midfielders being the norm). I think perhaps against ICT low morale was a problem compounded by being outplayed by what is at the moment a better team. This can hopefully be sorted in short order by Butcher but it will be January before the aforementioned lack of pace and players with creative instincts can be addressed.

[Jonnyboy]

On the contrary, I think Pat was really strong. He had his beliefs on how the team should be set up and despite obvious failures on numerous occasions, he stuck with those beliefs.

Problem was that because we were so predictable, other coaches had a fair chance of setting their team up to beat us

[J-C]

If what I hear about the standard of training is to be believed, we're too soft because we're not fit enough, seemingly very part time attitude down at E mains

[Andy74]

Who cares. Come on Big Tel!

[The_Horde]

A nice guy but his approach was far too negative in every sense. His negative approach was passed onto the players and that's what's held us back in big games. Too much thought on stifling opposition and not enough "get at them"