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Beefster
05-11-2013, 10:05 AM
PF tried to make Hibs hard to beat and got hounded.

Did he succeed?

greenpaper55
05-11-2013, 10:12 AM
Did he succeed?

Remember, nothing succeeds like a budgie with nae teeth !

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 10:15 AM
Did he succeed?

First season: 11th
Second season: 7th
Third season: Resigned whilst joint-sixth.

The facts are that he was in the process of succeeding but left before his contract was up. The issue is surely whether or not he was hounded out rather than whether or not he was succeeding. He undeniably was succeeding and I'd also agree with the person you quoted that he was hounded out, I don't think anyone could really say otherwise.

Steve20
05-11-2013, 10:27 AM
First season: 11th
Second season: 7th
Third season: Resigned whilst joint-sixth.

The facts are that he was in the process of succeeding but left before his contract was up. The issue is surely whether or not he was hounded out rather than whether or not he was succeeding. He undeniably was succeeding and I'd also agree with the person you quoted that he was hounded out, I don't think anyone could really say otherwise.


He led us to the most embarrassing results in my lifetime supporting Hibs.
The football he had us playing was abysmal.
Teams with smaller budgets were still finishing above us and outplaying us.

There is no way he was succeeding.

aunty joyce
05-11-2013, 10:28 AM
First season: 11th
Second season: 7th
Third season: Resigned whilst joint-sixth.

The facts are that he was in the process of succeeding but left before his contract was up. The issue is surely whether or not he was hounded out rather than whether or not he was succeeding. He undeniably was succeeding and I'd also agree with the person you quoted that he was hounded out, I don't think anyone could really say otherwise.

THIS :top marks

Ozyhibby
05-11-2013, 10:30 AM
He led us to the most embarrassing results in my lifetime supporting Hibs.
The football he had us playing was abysmal.
Teams with smaller budgets were still finishing above us and outplaying us.

There is no way he was succeeding.

This 100%

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 10:34 AM
He led us to the most embarrassing results in my lifetime supporting Hibs.
The football he had us playing was abysmal.
Teams with smaller budgets were still finishing above us and outplaying us.

There is no way he was succeeding.

Beefster asked if he was succeeding in making us harder to beat. It's not possible to argue that he didn't succeed in this respect. We've been progressively improving in this respect throughout his tenure. Whether or not this is good enough for some fans is a separate matter, most seem to feel entitled to a certain style of play as well as immediacy in improvement in results.

Bobby's Cinema
05-11-2013, 10:40 AM
Beefster asked if he was succeeding in making us harder to beat. It's not possible to argue that he didn't succeed in this respect. We've been progressively improving in this respect throughout his tenure. Whether or not this is good enough for some fans is a separate matter, most seem to feel entitled to a certain style of play as well as immediacy in improvement in results.
Pat took us as far as he could. He said it himself

Andy74
05-11-2013, 10:43 AM
Pat took us as far as he could. He said it himself

I don't think that's actually what he said. He said most of the negativity was being aimed at him and so he was taking himself out of it and hoped someone else could now take them forward. I don't think he said anywhere that he didn't have the ability if allowed to to take them forward himself.

Bobby's Cinema
05-11-2013, 10:49 AM
I don't think that's actually what he said. He said most of the negativity was being aimed at him and so he was taking himself out of it and hoped someone else could now take them forward. I don't think he said anywhere that he didn't have the ability if allowed to to take them forward himself.
You're right he never said those words exactly. That's the tone of the interview though. "I've taken Hibs as far as I can, I'm happy for someone else to come in and take over us in a better position." Not wanting to have a go at Pat anyway, onwards and upwards :aok:

HUTCHYHIBBY
05-11-2013, 10:50 AM
First season: 11th
Second season: 7th
Third season: Resigned whilst joint-sixth.

The facts are that he was in the process of succeeding but left before his contract was up. The issue is surely whether or not he was hounded out rather than whether or not he was succeeding. He undeniably was succeeding and I'd also agree with the person you quoted that he was hounded out, I don't think anyone could really say otherwise.

Is this what equates to success for a Hibs manager these days? The footballing landscape in Scotland has significantly changed, with Hearts starting with a boys club team on -15 and no Rangers in any guise you care to choose in the top division. Not success for me, maybe my expectations are too high.

E10 Rifle
05-11-2013, 10:50 AM
First season: 11th
Second season: 7th
Third season: Resigned whilst joint-sixth.

The facts are that he was in the process of succeeding but left before his contract was up. The issue is surely whether or not he was hounded out rather than whether or not he was succeeding. He undeniably was succeeding and I'd also agree with the person you quoted that he was hounded out, I don't think anyone could really say otherwise.

Last seasons position is without Rangers, this season without Hearts and Rangers...there's nothing to shout about there and nothing any Hibs supporter should be proud of.

Phil D. Rolls
05-11-2013, 10:51 AM
Beefster asked if he was succeeding in making us harder to beat. It's not possible to argue that he didn't succeed in this respect. We've been progressively improving in this respect throughout his tenure. Whether or not this is good enough for some fans is a separate matter, most seem to feel entitled to a certain style of play as well as immediacy in improvement in results.


I don't think that's actually what he said. He said most of the negativity was being aimed at him and so he was taking himself out of it and hoped someone else could now take them forward. I don't think he said anywhere that he didn't have the ability if allowed to to take them forward himself.

Don't let logic, or facts, get in the way of a good argument.

E10 Rifle
05-11-2013, 10:53 AM
Is this what equates to success for a Hibs manager these days? The footballing landscape in Scotland has significantly changed, with Hearts starting with a boys club team on -15 and no Rangers in any guise you care to choose in the top division. Not success for me, maybe my expectations are too high.

(just nicked on in front of me...but spot on)

Hibby Bairn
05-11-2013, 10:53 AM
He led us to the most embarrassing results in my lifetime supporting Hibs.
The football he had us playing was abysmal.
Teams with smaller budgets were still finishing above us and outplaying us.

There is no way he was succeeding.

:agree:

Thecat23
05-11-2013, 10:54 AM
I don't think that's actually what he said. He said most of the negativity was being aimed at him and so he was taking himself out of it and hoped someone else could now take them forward. I don't think he said anywhere that he didn't have the ability if allowed to to take them forward himself.

Yes he did, here is a direct quote..


“A lot of the anger is directed at me, and rightly so because I’m at the helm, and I can understand the frustration of the supporters. It’s time to change that by taking myself out of the equation.

“I certainly think the team can go further. I don’t think I am the man to take it forward but there is a hell of a lot more to come from these players.”

Bobby's Cinema
05-11-2013, 10:55 AM
Don't let logic, or facts, get in the way of a good argument.


Yes he did, here is a direct quote..


“A lot of the anger is directed at me, and rightly so because I’m at the helm, and I can understand the frustration of the supporters. It’s time to change that by taking myself out of the equation.

“I certainly think the team can go further. I don’t think I am the man to take it forward but there is a hell of a lot more to come from these players.”
ahah! :wink:

Purehibee_MYB
05-11-2013, 10:58 AM
Loving all this talk about whether Terry Butcher is our manager yet guys! :aok:

PatHead
05-11-2013, 10:58 AM
I think PF succeeded in the extent that Hibs are for the first time in years not in crisis. When the new manager takes over he will have a club heading in the right direction and with more half decent players than poor ones. The club is more stable than it has been for a long time. It is easy to forget how much of a mess Hibs were in when Pat arrived and for how long we had been in decline. An earlier poster compared Pat's job to that of Craig Brown at Aberdeen. McInnes is now reaping the benefits. I hope we are in the same position in a few months and with hindsight PF will get some credit.

Phil D. Rolls
05-11-2013, 10:59 AM
ahah! :wink:
:taxi

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 10:59 AM
Don't let logic, or facts, get in the way of a good argument.

What facts or logic would get in the way of what I said? The question was "did he succeed in making us harder to beat?" He did, because our results have progressively improved over his tenure. It seems rather that facts and logic are getting in the way of the counter argument, that he didn't succeed in this respect.

Liberal Hibby
05-11-2013, 11:02 AM
I think PF succeeded in the extent that Hibs are for the first time in years not in crisis. When the new manager takes over he will have a club heading in the right direction and with more half decent players than poor ones. The club is more stable than it has been for a long time. It is easy to forget how much of a mess Hibs were in when Pat arrived and for how long we had been in decline. An earlier poster compared Pat's job to that of Craig Brown at Aberdeen. McInnes is now reaping the benefits. I hope we are in the same position in a few months and with hindsight PF will get some credit.

Indeed - that's my view too.

blackpoolhibs
05-11-2013, 11:05 AM
He succeeded in driving more and more people away from Easter Road.

southsider
05-11-2013, 11:08 AM
No, complete falure and only slightly less bad than CC. 2 utter humiliations and some of the worst football i have ever saw. Left us with a squad of players with no pace and who seem chicken hearted.

easty
05-11-2013, 11:09 AM
First season: 11th
Second season: 7th
Third season: Resigned whilst joint-sixth.

The facts are that he was in the process of succeeding but left before his contract was up. The issue is surely whether or not he was hounded out rather than whether or not he was succeeding. He undeniably was succeeding and I'd also agree with the person you quoted that he was hounded out, I don't think anyone could really say otherwise.

The fact our league positions improved isn't a marker as to whether Pat did or did not succeed for me. You have to factor in the standard of the opposition, cos they weren't a constant in the equation, and the relative budget PF had to work with.

PF did not succeed as manager of Hibs. Unless of course you equate success to bringing the worst Hibs results in my lifetime. That cup final. That European game. The absolute disgrace that is our two defeats to them this season. They are an absolute shambles and we handed them 2 massive confidence boosts, and gave thier fans bragging rights when they should be too embarrassed to look a Hibs fan in the eye and even talk about football.

SlickShoes
05-11-2013, 11:11 AM
Not a complete failure, he got us out a calderwood shaped hole. Beyond that though he led us to some of the worst games I have ever watched as a Hibs supporter. I think this more than anything else led to him getting the bullet. We have been terrible to watch, if you couple that with losing to the worst hearts team ever TWICE, losing 9-0 in europe and losing two cup finals both in a terrible manner he had to go.

Sergio sledge
05-11-2013, 11:16 AM
Did he succeed?

In his only full season we had the second lowest losing record since Mowbray's first season in 2004 - 2005, 2006 - 2007 being the lowest. We also had the best defensive record (goals per game) since Mixu's only full season in charge in 2008 - 2009.

He failed to get us playing winning football, but we are harder to beat IMHO.

HibsNibs
05-11-2013, 11:17 AM
Worst home result in our history & multiple other humiliations = complete failure

yekimevol
05-11-2013, 11:23 AM
Pat was a success at Easter road, the issue was the playing mentality was not what we expect from a hibs side.

Season one Task - when he arrived, avoid relegation. [done] Bonus - Cup run.

Season two task - Improve league standing after the hell of last two seasons, finishes 7th best finish in two years. Bonus - Cup Run.

Season three - Top 6 / Europe, was 6th when he left.

If pat had us playing attacking football on the deck, he would still be at the club.

Mark79
05-11-2013, 11:24 AM
No. League is our bread and butter. You cant make it look better with 2 cup finals especially when we lost both comfortably.

Turnaround of personnel is frightening and largely his squads have been murder with very little real quality.

Leithenhibby
05-11-2013, 11:34 AM
For me he was a success. :wink: We were going in the right direction, all be it very slowly.......

When we beat Dunfermline in that relegation battle, my only wish was that our season ended there.... :rolleyes:

Andy74
05-11-2013, 11:36 AM
Yes he did, here is a direct quote..


“A lot of the anger is directed at me, and rightly so because I’m at the helm, and I can understand the frustration of the supporters. It’s time to change that by taking myself out of the equation.

“I certainly think the team can go further. I don’t think I am the man to take it forward but there is a hell of a lot more to come from these players.”

In the context of the current negativity towards him, not that he didn't have the ability to do it.

Pretty Boy
05-11-2013, 11:40 AM
First season: 11th
Second season: 7th
Third season: Resigned whilst joint-sixth.

The facts are that he was in the process of succeeding but left before his contract was up. The issue is surely whether or not he was hounded out rather than whether or not he was succeeding. He undeniably was succeeding and I'd also agree with the person you quoted that he was hounded out, I don't think anyone could really say otherwise.

That party when we finished 7th in a league with no Rangers and a depleted Hearts will live long in the memory.

Treadstone
05-11-2013, 11:42 AM
Fenlons home league record this year.

D L D D L D D W L D D W D L

Pretty Boy
05-11-2013, 11:43 AM
Pat was a success at Easter road, the issue was the playing mentality was not what we expect from a hibs side.

Season one Task - when he arrived, avoid relegation. [done] Bonus - Cup run.

Season two task - Improve league standing after the hell of last two seasons, finishes 7th best finish in two years. Bonus - Cup Run.

Season three - Top 6 / Europe, was 6th when he left.

If pat had us playing attacking football on the deck, he would still be at the club.

I don't believe the task in his 1st season was to avoid relegation. We were 9th when he took over so i'd assume a new manager was brought in to improve us, not drop another couple of places and avoid relegation in the 2nd last game of the season.

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 11:46 AM
That party when we finished 7th in a league with no Rangers and a depleted Hearts will live long in the memory.

His failure to transform a relegation battling club into a party celebrating club in twelve months is not an argument against him I find very convincing.

Hibercelona
05-11-2013, 11:47 AM
Beefster asked if he was succeeding in making us harder to beat. It's not possible to argue that he didn't succeed in this respect. We've been progressively improving in this respect throughout his tenure. Whether or not this is good enough for some fans is a separate matter, most seem to feel entitled to a certain style of play as well as immediacy in improvement in results.

3-0 down in the first half against a young Falkirk side
5-1 in a final against your biggest rivals
3-0 in a final where we just never really showed up again
7-0 at home at the hands of a similar sized club
1-0 to a bunch of kids
1-0 to a bunch of kids again at home

The myth that we were "hard to beat" is just that, a "myth".

Any team that set out to have a go at us, beat us.

Pretty Boy
05-11-2013, 11:48 AM
His failure to transform a relegation battling club into a party celebrating club in twelve months is not an argument against him I find very convincing.

Yet Ross County went from the 1st Division straight into the top 6.

Not making the top 6 last year, especially with the Rangers and Hearts situations, was a failure pure and simple.

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 11:52 AM
3-0 down in the first half against a young Falkirk side
5-1 in a final against your biggest rivals
3-0 in a final where we just never really showed up again
7-0 at home at the hands of a similar sized club
1-0 to a bunch of kids
1-0 to a bunch of kids again at home

The myth that we were "hard to beat" is just that, a "myth".

Any team that set out to have a go at us, beat us.

Listing a number of poor results doesn't prove that we are not harder to beat. Calderwood won 24% of his matches, Fenlon won 35% of his. This does prove that we are harder to beat. Maybe you should go ahead and list some more poor results though and then that will turn these facts into myths. :aok:

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 11:54 AM
Yet Ross County went from the 1st Division straight into the top 6.

Not making the top 6 last year, especially with the Rangers and Hearts situations, was a failure pure and simple.

Ross County also had a good manager and had momentum from promotion. We had Colin Calderwood. 11th to 7th in twelve months, considering the true state of the team left by Calderwood, is not something that I find damaging to Fenlon's credibility, in the slightest.

Pretty Boy
05-11-2013, 11:56 AM
Ross County also had a good manager and had momentum from promotion. We had Colin Calderwood. 11th to 7th in twelve months, considering the true state of the team left by Calderwood, is not something that I find damaging to Fenlon's credibility, in the slightest.

A promotion they gained only a season after avoiding the play offs by the skin off their teeth.

You're right about 1 thing though, they did have a good manager, we didn't.

lyonhibs
05-11-2013, 11:56 AM
Some folk seem to be equating "success" with "being less murder than we were under Calderwood"

Call me unrealistically ambitious if you will, but that's not a success.

Hibercelona
05-11-2013, 11:57 AM
Listing a number of poor results doesn't prove that we are not harder to beat. Calderwood won 24% of his matches, Fenlon won 35% of his. This does prove that we are harder to beat. Maybe you should go ahead and list some more poor results though and then that will turn these facts into myths. :aok:

You're missing the point. The bad results came in games that mattered most to the fans. All because players were unable to lift themselves enough for the occasion.

We brought Pat in to change that and he didn't, pure and simple.

steakbake
05-11-2013, 11:59 AM
Fenlons home league record this year.

D L D D L D D W L D D W D L

Poor record at home.

Two of the worst results in the club's history, arguably 3 with the Celtic cup final - at least it was a "fun" day out.

Maybe 4 or 5 - losing to a very depleted Hearts side twice.

30 players have come and gone: some good, some bad, some distinctly average.

Poor to watch.

Relatively easily beaten by anyone who set out in the right way.

Fairly negative football.

Tactics were a Plan A, cannot remember a time when a change of tack changed a game all that noticeably.

I think PF brought us as far as he could. Seemed like a decent bloke, probably did try his best behind the scenes but I'm left feeling that his ability to take Hibs much further than where he got us to was seriously debatable.

Success - a disastrous European campaign which was treated as little more than a glorified pre-season friendly after the result.

Successive league placings seeing us go up - but we're a relatively big fish in a small pond. Two bottom six finishes for what is, by most measures a top 6 club, is not a good return.

Successive cup finals: humiliated in one and written off as just a fun day out in another.

He succeeded in steadying a sinking ship - credit to him definitely for that. When he did finally get the team playing well, we could put on a game but beyond that, no consistency. No building on results.

I don't think the next man will need a complete squad overhaul like in previous years and nor do I think they should expect it.

Not necessarily a failure, but in as harsh as deeming him to have failed would be, I think calling his time a success would be a bit generous.

Hibernia&Alba
05-11-2013, 12:01 PM
We hadn't become that much harder to beat, let's be honest. I really wanted things to work out for Pat, but we'd reached the point where we all realised our expectations weren't going to be met. The derby cup final and the Malmo game will always live in the memory. Over time his tenure will be remembered as a failure, IMO.

hibby rae
05-11-2013, 12:01 PM
In my opinion, yes to an extent.

1st season he was given the remit to keep us up which he achieved. 2nd season, definite improvements were made on the previous couple of seasons and we were unlucky to not be top 6. Although, we did finish with a higher points total that 6th place. For this season, many will say no but I think the jury will be out till the end of the season. If his successor pushes on and improves results part of that will be down to Pat for the squad he managed to assemble. So although we weren't a blistering success, improvements were made year on year.

Treadstone
05-11-2013, 12:01 PM
Some folk seem to be equating "success" with "being less murder than we were under Calderwood"

Call me unrealistically ambitious if you will, but that's not a success.

:top marksSome folk would have getting humped 4-1 off the yams in a Scottish cup final as progress.

Just_Jimmy
05-11-2013, 12:02 PM
Yet Ross County went from the 1st Division straight into the top 6.

Not making the top 6 last year, especially with the Rangers and Hearts situations, was a failure pure and simple.

I agree and whilst I'd further say I don't see top six as the limit of ambition only the minimum he was desperately unlucky last year.

Griffiths freekick against hearts and the penalty that never was away to Dundee United. 4 points thats cost us a top six place.

That plus the final would have certainly seen him til his contracts end should he wanted.

Luck plays a big part.

Viva_Palmeiras
05-11-2013, 12:05 PM
Did he succeed...?
what was outlined to him by the board as success?
Preventing relegation
Root and branch review and structural overhaul?
Scouting was restructured
Changing the culture and mentality
Going undefeated against hearts for a season
Developing youth and providing opportunities
An injury-free season ;)
...
Etc.

There are many elements to being successful some of which will only bear fruit in time (or not).
It's a results business and boy did he suffer there.
My hope is that Pats "success" will have been in the transformation of the club unfortunately that didn't immediately translate to results on the pitch.

IF Pat has provided us with a stable platform - a pool of players capable of developing and putting a decent challenge together without radical overhaul of the squad then we are in a better place than the constant and corrosive effect of "transition".

Time will tell.

Hibercelona
05-11-2013, 12:07 PM
I agree and whilst I'd further say I don't see top six as the limit of ambition only the minimum he was desperately unlucky last year.

Griffiths freekick against hearts and the penalty that never was away to Dundee United. 4 points thats cost us a top six place.

That plus the final would have certainly seen him til his contracts end should he wanted.

Luck plays a big part.

That would be true if luck (or lack of) only had an effect on us and none of the other clubs in the league.

Other instances would have occured last season that fans from other clubs would have felt went against them.

So there's no real point saying that luck plays a big part.

We simply haven't been good enough.

Saorsa
05-11-2013, 12:10 PM
Some folk seem to be equating "success" with "being less murder than we were under Calderwood"

Call me unrealistically ambitious if you will, but that's not a success.I think you need tae lower your expectations a bit, far too lofty IMO :agree:

Just_Jimmy
05-11-2013, 12:15 PM
That would be true if luck (or lack of) only had an effect on us and none of the other clubs in the league.

Other instances would have occured last season that fans from other clubs would have felt went against them.

So there's no real point saying that luck plays a big part.

We simply haven't been good enough.

Ok. Luck didn't play a part. Blatent cheating and two pish poor decisions cost Pat Fenlon two points his team had earned on both occasions.

Disagree?

Hibs beat hearts that day in all but the refs mind and give the scandelous penalty up there was 88 mins its fair to say would have beat united 2-1 as well after a good performance at a difficult venue.

Your point about other teams is of course correct but there is no getting away from it. These two decisions were scandelous.

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 12:17 PM
You're missing the point. The bad results came in games that mattered most to the fans. All because players were unable to lift themselves enough for the occasion.
We brought Pat in to change that and he didn't, pure and simple.

We brought Pat in first and foremost to keep us in the league. He did that.

We brought him into take out the utter deadwood that Calderwood brought in: Agogo, Martin Scott, Matt Thornhill, Akpo Sodge, and replace them with good players. We now have a strong squad, most professional football players now publicly say the same, as do football commentators. We'll see where it ends up, I expect that a capable manager will be able to achieve good things with the team.

As for the bad results in matches that mattered most: did the quarter finals and semi finals along the way not matter to the fans? Kilmarnock away was a difficult match and the kind of match we've lost all too frequently in the past. Winning the semi against Aberdeen with the relegation fighting squad was a magnificent result. These were the kind of matches that we lost under Collins and Mowbray with vastly superior squads to the opposition (Dundee United Scottish cup semi; Dunfermline Scottish Cup semi).
Getting to the final in 2012 was a miracle and a tragedy at the same time, getting that squad there seemed like an impossible task but ultimately it was tragic because that squad was in no shape or form able for such an occasion. He vastly overachieved in the cups with the squads that he had. I think it's hugely unfair to say that the bad results came in the matches that mattered most when he had teams punching well above their weight to get to those matches.

The absolute facts are that we've been in steady improvement throughout his tenure. This can't be denied no matter how badly you want to bring up bad results along the way. There was nothing to suggest the improvement was coming to a hault and, IMO, it's a pity that he never got to finish the job he came in to do.

Liberal Hibby
05-11-2013, 12:23 PM
He succeeded in driving more and more people away from Easter Road.

Um no he didn't:

2011/12

24/07/2011 0-2 Vs Celtic in Scottish League = 12,523
20/08/2011 1-2 Vs St Mirren in Scottish League = 8,886
11/09/2011 0-0 Vs Aberdeen in Scottish League = 8,972
24/09/2011 3-3 Vs Dundee United in Scottish League = 9,360
28/09/2011 3-2 Vs St Johnstone in Scottish League = 8,323
15/10/2011 0-0 Vs Motherwell in Scottish League () = 8,518
05/11/2011 0-1 Vs Dunfermline Athletic in Scottish League = 9,531

Calderwood sacked

2013/14

04/08/2013 0-1 Vs Motherwell in Scottish League = 9,237 (+719)
17/08/2013 1-1 Vs Dundee United in Scottish League = 9,171 (-189)
31/08/2013 0-0 Vs Ross County in Scottish League = 9,569
21/09/2013 2-0 Vs St Mirren in Scottish League = 9,417 (+531)
19/10/2013 1-1 Vs Celtic in Scottish League = 14,220 (+1,693)
26/10/2013 0-2 Vs Aberdeen in Scottish League = 12,810 (+3,832)

Fenlon resigns

Saorsa
05-11-2013, 12:28 PM
We brought Pat in first and foremost to keep us in the league. He did that.

We brought him into take out the utter deadwood that Calderwood brought in: Agogo, Martin Scott, Matt Thornhill, Akpo Sodge, and replace them with good players. We now have a strong squad, most professional football players now publicly say the same, as do football commentators. We'll see where it ends up, I expect that a capable manager will be able to achieve good things with the team.

As for the bad results in matches that mattered most: did the quarter finals and semi finals along the way not matter to the fans? Kilmarnock away was a difficult match and the kind of match we've lost all too frequently in the past. Winning the semi against Aberdeen with the relegation fighting squad was a magnificent result. These were the kind of matches that we lost under Collins and Mowbray with vastly superior squads to the opposition (Dundee United Scottish cup semi; Dunfermline Scottish Cup semi).
Getting to the final in 2012 was a miracle and a tragedy at the same time, getting that squad there seemed like an impossible task but ultimately it was tragic because that squad was in no shape or form able for such an occasion. He vastly overachieved in the cups with the squads that he had. I think it's hugely unfair to say that the bad results came in the matches that mattered most when he had teams punching well above their weight to get to those matches.

The absolute facts are that we've been in steady improvement throughout his tenure. This can't be denied no matter how badly you want to bring up bad results along the way. There was nothing to suggest the improvement was coming to a hault and, IMO, it's a pity that he never got to finish the job he came in to do.signed

Hans Christian Andersen

PeeJay
05-11-2013, 12:29 PM
Did he succeed?

Did he resign because he succeeded? No.
Did he think he could succeed if he stayed? No.
Is a manager who thinks he is unable to take the team forward a success? No.
Did he make us harder to beat? No.
Did he get us into the top 6? No
Did we win any cups under him? No
While not getting relegated may be a measure of success for some clubs, can we accept it as "success" for ours? No
Has he improved the style of football? No
Did he have people flocking back to ER to see the Hibs? No
Did he improve the atmosphere at Easter Road with exciting and entertaining football? No
Will we look back one day and say, I wish Fenlon had stayed, we were really going places with him? No.
If he was so successful as some would have us believe, wouldn't he still be here? Yes.
Is he? No
I rest my case...

Persevere80
05-11-2013, 12:38 PM
I've not been to see hibs much this season. Only on special occasions due to finance. The three games I did go to were the cup final, the malmo game at easter road then the derby last week. A total of about £60 on tickets to watch 11 goals get put past us. The only goal I got to cheer was the offside one at the malmo game. So in my eyes he was not good enough although to be fair we did improve from Colin Calderwood's time.

jacomo
05-11-2013, 12:43 PM
The absolute facts are that we've been in steady improvement throughout his tenure. This can't be denied no matter how badly you want to bring up bad results along the way. There was nothing to suggest the improvement was coming to a hault and, IMO, it's a pity that he never got to finish the job he came in to do.

Credit to Pat for his achievements, but there are only so many demoralising defeats a club can take before people beg for change. In the end, he seemed to come to the same conclusion.

TowerHibs
05-11-2013, 12:46 PM
Some folk seem to be equating "success" with "being less murder than we were under Calderwood"

Call me unrealistically ambitious if you will, but that's not a success.

this is the best post on this thread.

agree 100%

Sammy7nil
05-11-2013, 12:46 PM
No

Islington Hibs
05-11-2013, 12:50 PM
I cast Not Proven.

He did many good things. There may be some way to go but he improved the culture and turfed out the drunks. He brought in, overall better players and I don't think we are far from being a reasonable side. Relegation ceased to be a worry. At times we played well with flowing football . The 2 Cup Finals undoubtedly helped the coffers not just on the day but with substantial extra season ticket sales- perhaps worth £1-1.5m to the club over two years. He was clearly a decent and honourable man.

However we were far too inconsistent and for every flowing game there were far too many turgid ones. Home form was abysmal. We bottled it when it really mattered with a number of clearly dreadful results (one of which, with retrospect, wasn't entirely his fault given the doping over the road). But perhaps he was unlucky. Just as we finally thought we had pay back for Hearts cheating we blew it - twice. The last defeat was, in my view, a freak result. On another day we would have been 3-0 up and who knows what that would have done for confidence. Sure we couldn't respond to Hearts only strike and that is fate, but unlucky, in my view, we were. Ultimately it was the failure to beat Them that caused such upset as this was supposed to be out time. He paid a very heavy price for that.

Most on this board will disagree with me but I would have preferred if he could have stayed until the end of the season to see if his team could turn the corner or not.

silverhibee
05-11-2013, 12:52 PM
What facts or logic would get in the way of what I said? The question was "did he succeed in making us harder to beat?" He did, because our results have progressively improved over his tenure. It seems rather that facts and logic are getting in the way of the counter argument, that he didn't succeed in this respect.


Did he make us harder to beat at ER, and how many games did he win for his time at ER.

I really can't remember home results improving, mind you i was to busy playing games on my phone as it was more interesting to do than watch the dire negative football that was on show from Pats team.

Just thought i would add that when Pat took over at the club we were siting 9th in the league, now it has become .net fact that he was brought in to save us from relegation :faf:, i would think the folk who had so much faith in him (the board) never said that to him, more of push on up the league and hopefully get a top 6 finish would have been spoken about, the fans Tam McCourt Tealady everyone thought we would kick on and move us up the league in the remaining months to get us a top 6 finish, sadly we got in to a relegation battle with Dunfermline and finished 11th in the league that season.

Never, no way was he told just to keep us from being relegated that season, if i am wrong and that was his instructions from the folk above then it really shows how much ambition they have for the club, but i don't believe he was told just to save the club from being relegated as most on here have said.

silverhibee
05-11-2013, 12:58 PM
I agree and whilst I'd further say I don't see top six as the limit of ambition only the minimum he was desperately unlucky last year.

Griffiths freekick against hearts and the penalty that never was away to Dundee United. 4 points thats cost us a top six place.

That plus the final would have certainly seen him til his contracts end should he wanted.

Luck plays a big part.


It does, just like the Heffs goal against celtc when he was a yard offside.

Captain Trips
05-11-2013, 12:59 PM
He improved us from what CC left, that IMO was something most managers currently working in SPL could have managed. His legacy is he was better than CC a wee bit.

All his sucesss is based on CCs record what a simply awful state of affairs. How was he against a good manager? Wanting I expect.

Doing better than CC isnt a success IMO and thats basically it.

silverhibee
05-11-2013, 01:04 PM
We brought Pat in first and foremost to keep us in the league. He did that.

We brought him into take out the utter deadwood that Calderwood brought in: Agogo, Martin Scott, Matt Thornhill, Akpo Sodge, and replace them with good players. We now have a strong squad, most professional football players now publicly say the same, as do football commentators. We'll see where it ends up, I expect that a capable manager will be able to achieve good things with the team.

As for the bad results in matches that mattered most: did the quarter finals and semi finals along the way not matter to the fans? Kilmarnock away was a difficult match and the kind of match we've lost all too frequently in the past. Winning the semi against Aberdeen with the relegation fighting squad was a magnificent result. These were the kind of matches that we lost under Collins and Mowbray with vastly superior squads to the opposition (Dundee United Scottish cup semi; Dunfermline Scottish Cup semi).
Getting to the final in 2012 was a miracle and a tragedy at the same time, getting that squad there seemed like an impossible task but ultimately it was tragic because that squad was in no shape or form able for such an occasion. He vastly overachieved in the cups with the squads that he had. I think it's hugely unfair to say that the bad results came in the matches that mattered most when he had teams punching well above their weight to get to those matches.

The absolute facts are that we've been in steady improvement throughout his tenure. This can't be denied no matter how badly you want to bring up bad results along the way. There was nothing to suggest the improvement was coming to a hault and, IMO, it's a pity that he never got to finish the job he came in to do.

Did we, do you have any quotes from Pat or others at the club that this was the case, .net myth if you ask me, i would have expected us to move up the table under Pat not fall further back that season.

Captain Trips
05-11-2013, 01:09 PM
Did we, do you have any quotes from Pat or others at the club that this was the case, .net myth if you ask me, i would have expected us to move up the table under Pat not fall further back that season.

Correct the alarm bells where there when we basically continued to do FA. If I was told when PF joins we will win 5 SPL games I would be bricking it.

The Voice Of Reason
05-11-2013, 01:15 PM
Positives
1. We got to 2 Cup Finals - so fair play for that
2. Undefeated against Hearts last season
3. Alleged "behind the scenes" improvements (but can anyone please tell me what there were?)

Negatives
Hammered by Hearts 5-1
Didn't turn up against Celtic in the Cup Final
Finished 11th in first season
Finished bottom 6 in second season (in a dreadful SPL minus Rangers)
Only 2 home league wins in 2013
Beaten twice this season by a Hearts Under 20 team who are murder
Kuqi, Kujabi, Vine, Collins.........etc
Eye bleeding football at times
STILL no pace in the team

So it has to be a resounding "NO" from me folks.

Hibercelona
05-11-2013, 01:17 PM
He improved us from what CC left, that IMO was something most managers currently working in SPL could have managed. His legacy is he was better than CC a wee bit.

All his sucesss is based on CCs record what a simply awful state of affairs. How was he against a good manager? Wanting I expect.

Doing better than CC isnt a success IMO and thats basically it.

:agree:

You can't do any worse than a manager that simply didn't give a crap. Fenlon cared for the club and did things to the best of his own abilities. It just wasn't good enough.

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 01:17 PM
Did we, do you have any quotes from Pat or others at the club that this was the case, .net myth if you ask me, i would have expected us to move up the table under Pat not fall further back that season.

Hibs don't make public targets like that so I suspect there wouldn't be any relevant quotes to that effect. I don't think there were any teams worse in the league than Dunfermline's and ours so I think it's fair to say that his first job upon coming in was to keep us up.

Speedy
05-11-2013, 01:19 PM
First season: 11th
Second season: 7th
Third season: Resigned whilst joint-sixth.

The facts are that he was in the process of succeeding but left before his contract was up. The issue is surely whether or not he was hounded out rather than whether or not he was succeeding. He undeniably was succeeding and I'd also agree with the person you quoted that he was hounded out, I don't think anyone could really say otherwise.

I think you're mixing up succeeding and progressing.

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 01:24 PM
I think you're mixing up succeeding and progressing.

I was talking about succeeding in making us harder to beat, that's what the initial point was about. He did succeed in making us harder to beat because we've accumulated more points than we did before he came. Improving upon Calderwood would not be sufficient to render someone a success generally, I agree, but he has succeeded in making us better than we were before he came in. And I think we'd have improved further if he was allowed to finish his job.

Stevie Reid
05-11-2013, 01:25 PM
In context of other managers: -

Mixu - win 31% loss 40%

Hughes - win 35% loss 43%

Calderwood - win 24% Loss 53%

Fenlon - win 35% loss 43%

The best thing of all is that looking back, under JC we had win 43% loss 30%, had a great home record, scored loads of goals (6 goals twice and 5 goals twice), won a national cup final with a 5-1 against a team that finished above us, had good results v OF and Hearts, and played some lovely football - and yet not only do some people not consider him to be a good Hibs manager, but actually write about him in really disrespectful terms when his name is brought up on here.

Fenlon's record is the same as Hughes' and you can argue that it should have been better given that there was no Rangers in the SPL last year and Hearts were comparatively weak (though we did finish above them). However, you can also look at the fact that Hughes took over a top 6 squad which was miles away from what Pat inherited from CC. It doesn't matter now anyway, he's gone, and as far as I am concerned, is the only manager out of all of those listed above to leave us in a better state than he found us.

Overall I'm glad we appointed Pat, and - whilst sorry that it didn't work out for him - glad he's no longer here.

#FromTheCapital
05-11-2013, 01:26 PM
Positives
1. We got to 2 Cup Finals - so fair play for that
2. Undefeated against Hearts last season
3. Alleged "behind the scenes" improvements (but can anyone please tell me what there were?)

Negatives
Hammered by Hearts 5-1
Didn't turn up against Celtic in the Cup Final
Finished 11th in first season
Finished bottom 6 in second season (in a dreadful SPL minus Rangers)
Only 2 home league wins in 2013
Beaten twice this season by a Hearts Under 20 team who are murder
Kuqi, Kujabi, Vine, Collins.........etc
Eye bleeding football at times
STILL no pace in the team

So it has to be a resounding "NO" from me folks.

On some of your negative points... Yes we were hammered by hearts in the final but there were mitigating circumstances such as an incompetent ref and a financially steroid pumped hearts team. Don't think it would've been such a fisting if a few things had actually went our way that day, as they should have.
I wouldn't say we didn't turn up against Celtic in the final, we were just beaten by a much better team. And even though our star player played, he was clearly injured. A fully fit Griffiths was essential if we were to have any chance that day.
Finished 11th but his only remit was to keep us up, which he did. Nobody was expecting us to finish much higher.
Can't argue with the rest

Elephant Stone
05-11-2013, 01:27 PM
In context of other managers: -

Mixu - win 31% loss 40%

Hughes - win 35% loss 43%

Calderwood - win 24% Loss 53%

Fenlon - win 35% loss 43%

The best thing of all is that looking back, under JC had win 43% loss 30%, had a great home record, scored loads of goals (6 goals twice and 5 goals twice), won a national cup final with a 5-1 against a team that finished above us, had good results v OF and Hearts, and played some lovely football - and yet not only do some people not consider him to be a good Hibs manager, but actually write about him in really disrespectful terms when his name is brought up on here.

Fenlon's record is the same as Hughes' and you can argue that it should have been better given that there was no Rangers in the SPL last year and Hearts were comparatively weak (though we did finish above them). However, you can also look at the fact that Hughes took over a top 6 squad which was miles away from what Pat inherited from CC. It doesn't matter now anyway, he's gone, and as far as I am concerned, is the only manager out of all of those listed above to leave us in a better state than he found us.

Overall I'm glad we appointed Pat, and, whilst sorry that it didn't work out for him, I'm glad he's no longer here.

He sure is.

Saorsa
05-11-2013, 01:33 PM
On some of your negative points... Yes we were hammered by hearts in the final but there were mitigating circumstances such as an incompetent ref and a financially steroid pumped hearts team. Don't think it would've been such a fisting if a few things had actually went our way that day, as they should have.
I wouldn't say we didn't turn up against Celtic in the final, we were just beaten by a much better team. And even though our star player played, he was clearly injured.
Finished 11th but his only remit was to keep us up, which he did. Nobody was expecting us to finish much higher.
Can't argue with the restWhere did this come from? When he was hired did somebody say tae him 'We're 9th now but dinnae worry if you finish lower than that as long as we dinnae get relegated'?

hibby rae
05-11-2013, 01:37 PM
Where did this come from? When he was hired did somebody say tae him 'We're 9th now but dinnae worry if you finish lower than that as long as we dinnae get relegated'?

I reckon we would have went down under Calderwood. I reckon he would have been told just keep us up and anything else is a bonus. Anything else would have been incredibly unrealistic.

#FromTheCapital
05-11-2013, 01:40 PM
Where did this come from? When he was hired did somebody say tae him 'We're 9th now but dinnae worry if you finish lower than that as long as we dinnae get relegated'?

With the squad he inherited and the general state we were in at the time a lot of fans feared relegation and if we'd kept Calderwood there was a higher chance of that happening. Staying up was the main thing as far as I was concerned.

Stevie Reid
05-11-2013, 01:41 PM
Where did this come from? When he was hired did somebody say tae him 'We're 9th now but dinnae worry if you finish lower than that as long as we dinnae get relegated'?

I would agree that it's a bit off to suggest that that was the mission statement when he came in, but we had just lost at home to Dunfermline and were on a massive downwards trajectory, it is understandable that it took time to get things together.

To put things in perspective, Calderwood lost 11 of his first 15 league games in charge, during which time we also lost to 2nd division Ayr Utd in the cup in the middle of a run of seven games (six losses) without scoring. We miraculously then had the 5 wins on the bounce, but after that he lost 13 of his remaining 24 league games. We were a basket case under Calderwood.

Scouse Hibee
05-11-2013, 01:44 PM
Despite some brief sunshine it was frequently cloudy and more often than not pished with rain so no he was not.

jeffers
05-11-2013, 01:46 PM
See my post yesterday on the Pat Fenlon thread. One of the things he admitted to my mate was he believed he had lost the dressing room and that the players were no longer listening. So when I read on this thread that he was hounded out I don't believe that to be the case.

Golden Bear
05-11-2013, 01:47 PM
It's time to look forward and forget about the dismal last few years.

Onwards and upwards!!

:flag:

Saorsa
05-11-2013, 01:52 PM
I reckon we would have went down under Calderwood. I reckon he would have been told just keep us up and anything else is a bonus. Anything else would have been incredibly unrealistic.


With the squad he inherited and the general state we were in at the time a lot of fans feared relegation and if we'd kept Calderwood there was a higher chance of that happening. Staying up was the main thing as far as I was concerned.It's the only remit bit that I find tae be nonsense. That may have been the minimum requirement that he was asked for but only? Nah.

IberianHibernian
05-11-2013, 02:02 PM
What Hibs managers have succeeded ? In the time I`ve been watching Hibs 3 won LCs ( Turnbull who later led us to relegation , Miller who was given 10 years which seemed like 20 and Collins who has done nothing since leaving us ) and among others Yogi took us to Europe but was not considered successful and Mixu had a reasonable record but was also shoved out . Of others , Franck didn`t get much time and CC and to a lesser degree Williamson were considered failures . That leaves McLeish who did well but with a lot of money and Mowbray who gave us attacking football but some huge letdowns in cup semis , both of whom have failed after leaving Hibs . No time to mention Duffy , Auld etc. So was PF a success ? For most here no ( I`m in a minority who would have liked him to stay a bit longer ) but what other managers have been successful ? And most of the contenders for new boss have also failed at several clubs .

Saorsa
05-11-2013, 02:03 PM
He did some good, but no enough of it happened where it matters, we're probably in a slightly better position now but success?

Having results marginally better than than colin deadwood and a style of fitba just as brutal isnae success in my book. When you have people who have already paid but would rather waste the money than actually go, there's something wrong.

ian cruise
05-11-2013, 02:05 PM
He steadied the ship and has left a decent starting point for another manager IMO. I don't know what targets the club set him so I can't say if he succeeded or not. I think we made good progress under Pat but he took us as far as he could. As I've said before I don't think he has a bad eye for a player I just don't think he knows what to do to get the best out if them. I ding think he was an abject failure but I expected better. 5/10.

#FromTheCapital
05-11-2013, 02:09 PM
It's the only remit bit that I find tae be nonsense. That may have been the minimum requirement that he was asked for but only? Nah.

Maybe could've worded it better then, but going back to the initial post I don't think it's so much of a negative that we finished 11th that season. We really were gash when he took over and on a downward spiral. Staying up was all that really mattered at the end of the day.

silverhibee
05-11-2013, 02:25 PM
Maybe could've worded it better then, but going back to the initial post I don't think it's so much of a negative that we finished 11th that season. We really were gash when he took over and on a downward spiral. Staying up was all that really mattered at the end of the day.

So you would expect our Board to bring in a manager who would give us a lift and get us going on a upward spiral, he had more than half a season and a transfer window to make changes to the team and get us moving up the table.

Looks like the Board got the managers appointment wrong in the first place, the Board signed the wrong man.

#FromTheCapital
05-11-2013, 02:36 PM
So you would expect our Board to bring in a manager who would give us a lift and get us going on a upward spiral, he had more than half a season and a transfer window to make changes to the team and get us moving up the table.

Looks like the Board got the managers appointment wrong in the first place, the Board signed the wrong man.

Dont think it was quite as simple as you make out but I get your point.

Hindsight is is a wonderful thing, don't remember many calling for his head after the end of that season although it's apparent now that it was the wrong man.

Paisley Hibby
05-11-2013, 02:59 PM
Beefster asked if he was succeeding in making us harder to beat. It's not possible to argue that he didn't succeed in this respect. We've been progressively improving in this respect throughout his tenure. Whether or not this is good enough for some fans is a separate matter, most seem to feel entitled to a certain style of play as well as immediacy in improvement in results.

Ask Malmo if they thought we were hard to beat.

Stevie Reid
05-11-2013, 03:04 PM
So you would expect our Board to bring in a manager who would give us a lift and get us going on a upward spiral, he had more than half a season and a transfer window to make changes to the team and get us moving up the table.

Looks like the Board got the managers appointment wrong in the first place, the Board signed the wrong man.

With respect, that's a very simplistic way of looking at things. I highlighted in an earlier post how bad things were under Calderwood, and whilst PF's own league form wasn't great in 2011-12, he had 8 league games gone before the transfer window closed, and most of the business was done at the end of the window - from the end of January when he began to get some of his own influence into the team, mainly via loans, the overall record was P 18 W 7 D 3 L 8, including the Scottish Cup.

The painful memories of that final are overwhelming, but don't underestimate how moral boosting the run to the final was with regards to our struggles in the league.

southsider
05-11-2013, 03:09 PM
With respect, that's a very simplistic way of looking at things. I highlighted in an earlier post how bad things were under Calderwood, and whilst PF's own league form wasn't great in 2011-12, he had 8 league games gone before the transfer window closed, and most of the business was done at the end of the window - from the end of January when he began to get some of his own influence into the team, mainly via loans, the overall record was P 18 W 7 D 3 L 8, including the Scottish Cup.

The painful memories of that final are overwhelming, but don't underestimate how moral boosting the run to the final was with regards to our struggles in the league.

Rather we had lost in the semi.

Stevie Reid
05-11-2013, 03:11 PM
Rather we had lost in the semi.

Me too.

jeffers
05-11-2013, 03:12 PM
Me too.

so does PF

LancsHibs
05-11-2013, 03:17 PM
Positives
1. We got to 2 Cup Finals - so fair play for that
2. Undefeated against Hearts last season
3. Alleged "behind the scenes" improvements (but can anyone please tell me what there were?)

Negatives
Hammered by Hearts 5-1
Didn't turn up against Celtic in the Cup Final
Finished 11th in first season
Finished bottom 6 in second season (in a dreadful SPL minus Rangers)
Only 2 home league wins in 2013
Beaten twice this season by a Hearts Under 20 team who are murder
Kuqi, Kujabi, Vine, Collins.........etc
Eye bleeding football at times
STILL no pace in the team

So it has to be a resounding "NO" from me folks.

And don't forget about destroying any lingering European credibility!

The simple answer for me is NO. You can measure success subjectively. I would say to deem Pat's tenure as a success you would have to have pretty low aspirations.

Nailrod
05-11-2013, 03:18 PM
Beefster asked if he was succeeding in making us harder to beat. It's not possible to argue that he didn't succeed in this respect. Oh absolutely. We've lost four and drawn one of our last five games, and scored one goal in the process.

I'm not sure I could have taken much more of this 'success' in making us 'harder to beat'.

Nailrod
05-11-2013, 03:31 PM
The 'two cup finals' achievement doesn't look quite so bright when you take into account the fact that on neither cup run did we have to face a team that finished in the top 6 of the SPL that year until we got to the final, and when eventually we did, on both occasions we were thrashed.

Having trawled back through the records, it's rather depressing to see that the last time we actually won a game in the cup against a top-6 finishing SPL team was in 2007 (Aberdeen 4-1).

The Voice Of Reason
05-11-2013, 04:01 PM
And don't forget about destroying any lingering European credibility!

The simple answer for me is NO. You can measure success subjectively. I would say to deem Pat's tenure as a success you would have to have pretty low aspirations.

Nail On Head :top marks

Beefster
05-11-2013, 04:07 PM
Rather we had lost in the semi.

To be fair to Fenlon, if we had lost the Aberdeen and Falkirk semis, two of the worst results in a long time (them/Malmo) would have been avoided. Might have stopped him going into 'safety-first' mode.

HUTCHYHIBBY
05-11-2013, 04:16 PM
I wonder where we would be if the board hadnae got rid of Sauzee before the game at ER v The Pars, anyone on here could've managed Hibs to a victory that day!

Couldnae decide where to post this, move as necessary. ;-)

Jonnyboy
05-11-2013, 04:16 PM
I wonder where we would be if the board hadnae got rid of Sauzee before the game at ER v The Pars, anyone on here could've managed Hibs to a victory that day!

Was it not St Johnstone? :wink:

HUTCHYHIBBY
05-11-2013, 04:18 PM
Was it not St Johnstone? :wink:

Just as I posted it I was doubting myself!

Jonnyboy
05-11-2013, 04:19 PM
Just as I posted it I was doubting myself!

:greengrin

HUTCHYHIBBY
05-11-2013, 04:21 PM
:greengrin

Anyone on here could've managed Hibs to victory in the game after he was emptied! ;-)

Jonnyboy
05-11-2013, 04:29 PM
Anyone on here could've managed Hibs to victory in the game after he was emptied! ;-)

Probably true. I loved Franck and was gutted when he was sacked. I do feel, however that he would have struggled had he stayed on. I also feel he shouldn't have been appointed as he had no experience and going from Franck to Gaffer in the dressing room probably hastened his departure

HibbyAndy
05-11-2013, 04:30 PM
Failure for me.

Keep hearing he has built the foundations and the ground work has been set..Really??..Derek Mcinnes has done more in 2 months than Fenlon did in 2 years..

His boring uninventive crappy formations and the worst results in history under him for me make him a failure.

Nice guy Pat but we never really went forward did we.When you really think about it.

jacomo
05-11-2013, 04:33 PM
Probably true. I loved Franck and was gutted when he was sacked. I do feel, however that he would have struggled had he stayed on. I also feel he shouldn't have been appointed as he had no experience and going from Franck to Gaffer in the dressing room probably hastened his departure

Who was Franck's assistant during his short reign? We often think of the manager as being on their own, but the right partnership can help. Who did he have to back him up and manage that transition from one of the boys to the man in charge?

Jonnyboy
05-11-2013, 04:36 PM
Who was Franck's assistant during his short reign? We often think of the manager as being on their own, but the right partnership can help. Who did he have to back him up and manage that transition from one of the boys to the man in charge?

When Franck was appointed he immediately selected Donald Park as his assistant. Parky is a great coach and was highly regarded by a whole host of players and yet the transition failed to materialise. I think there were a few strong personalities in that dressing room who could have been more supportive of Franck

HibbyAndy
05-11-2013, 04:36 PM
Who was Franck's assistant during his short reign? We often think of the manager as being on their own, but the right partnership can help. Who did he have to back him up and manage that transition from one of the boys to the man in charge?


Donald Ford

silverhibee
05-11-2013, 04:36 PM
Who was Franck's assistant during his short reign? We often think of the manager as being on their own, but the right partnership can help. Who did he have to back him up and manage that transition from one of the boys to the man in charge?

Donald Park.

HibbyAndy
05-11-2013, 04:39 PM
Donald Park.

Donald park :hilarious

Was nearly right :greengrin

Stevie Reid
05-11-2013, 04:40 PM
Park was also assistant to Mixu here, and Robertson at Hearts, IIRC.

Jonnyboy
05-11-2013, 04:40 PM
Donald Ford

Epic fail there Andy :greengrin

HibbyAndy
05-11-2013, 04:43 PM
Epic fail there Andy :greengrin

Kent it was Donald somebody :greengrin

No Daffy ;-)

silverhibee
05-11-2013, 04:58 PM
Donald Ford

:faf:

JimBHibees
05-11-2013, 04:59 PM
When Franck was appointed he immediately selected Donald Park as his assistant. Parky is a great coach and was highly regarded by a whole host of players and yet the transition failed to materialise. I think there were a few strong personalities in that dressing room who could have been more supportive of Franck

I kind of wish that Franck had brought his own guy in as you really need someone you can bounce things off and trust. Not to say Donald Park wasnt that however a manager and especially a new one would have maybe benefitted from a trusted outsider. Can vividly remember one of the last home games of Francks era with Franck at one end of the bench and DP at the other not communicating at all? Always a difficult jump going from a player to a manager in the same dressing room IMO.

Saorsa
05-11-2013, 05:00 PM
Donald Ford:hilarious

JimBHibees
05-11-2013, 05:00 PM
Donald Ford

LTYF. :greengrin

HibbyAndy
05-11-2013, 05:05 PM
Aye awrite guys :greengrin

I just tried to be a smart erse and get in first with the answer :hilarious Least a never said donald trump :Ummm:

HUTCHYHIBBY
05-11-2013, 05:08 PM
Probably true. I loved Franck and was gutted when he was sacked. I do feel, however that he would have struggled had he stayed on. I also feel he shouldn't have been appointed as he had no experience and going from Franck to Gaffer in the dressing room probably hastened his departure

If he had been left in charge and won that next game he would in effect have had a free run of games and get his feet under the table before utilising his contacts in the close season. Unfortunately he wasn't given the chance.

Come back and see us Le God!

Jonnyboy
05-11-2013, 05:09 PM
If he had been left in charge and won that next game he would in effect have had a free run of games and get his feet under the table before utilising his contacts in the close season. Unfortunately he wasn't given the chance.

Come back and see us Le God!

:agree:

lyonhibs
05-11-2013, 08:09 PM
Aye awrite guys :greengrin

I just tried to be a smart erse and get in first with the answer :hilarious Least a never said donald trump :Ummm:

You'd have been closer with Donald Duck to be honest :greengrin

MWHIBBIES
05-11-2013, 08:12 PM
3-0 down in the first half against a young Falkirk side
5-1 in a final against your biggest rivals
3-0 in a final where we just never really showed up again
7-0 at home at the hands of a similar sized club
1-0 to a bunch of kids
1-0 to a bunch of kids again at home

The myth that we were "hard to beat" is just that, a "myth".

Any team that set out to have a go at us, beat us.Do people really blame Pat for that, good lord. I remember coming on here that night and people were blaming everyone but him, funny how things change :rolleyes:

Swedish hibee
05-11-2013, 08:14 PM
Yes.

Eyrie
05-11-2013, 09:01 PM
Fenlon undoubtedly improved us, but not to the extent that his time here could be considered a success on the pitch.

Cropley10
05-11-2013, 09:12 PM
He succeeded in driving more and more people away from Easter Road.

He succeeded in playing eye-bleedingly-bad football.

He succeeding in winning two league games at home in 2013.

He succeeded in getting out after losing twice to Hearts U20s within the space of 3 months.

Cropley10
05-11-2013, 09:14 PM
The 'two cup finals' achievement doesn't look quite so bright when you take into account the fact that on neither cup run did we have to face a team that finished in the top 6 of the SPL that year until we got to the final, and when eventually we did, on both occasions we were thrashed.

Having trawled back through the records, it's rather depressing to see that the last time we actually won a game in the cup against a top-6 finishing SPL team was in 2007 (Aberdeen 4-1).

Precisely

Andy74
05-11-2013, 09:44 PM
Precisely

There is lots to criticise but dismissing two Scottish Cup finals is just ridiculous and does your arguments no favours.

We've been in a total of three of them in the 30 odd years I've been going to games. Two of them in the last two years.

HibbyAndy
05-11-2013, 09:50 PM
There is lots to criticise but dismissing two Scottish Cup finals is just ridiculous and does your arguments no favours.

We've been in a total of three of them in the 30 odd years I've been going to games. Two of them in the last two years.

Let it go Andy FFS.

Fenlon failed in his time here..Seriously.mate drop it.

MikeyG
05-11-2013, 09:50 PM
[QUOTE=Stevie Reid;3796518]Me too.[/QUOT

And Pat Fenlon

stantonhibby
05-11-2013, 09:51 PM
There is lots to criticise but dismissing two Scottish Cup finals is just ridiculous and does your arguments no favours.

We've been in a total of three of them in the 30 odd years I've been going to games. Two of them in the last two years.

Exactly. Mowbray & Collins both failed at the semi final stage with far better teams as did McLeish on 1 of his attempts.

Speedy
05-11-2013, 09:51 PM
Do people really blame Pat for that, good lord. I remember coming on here that night and people were blaming everyone but him, funny how things change :rolleyes:

:agree:

I might be in the minority but I'm not really bothered about losing 5-1 and wasn't really bothered at the time. The team was utter ****, I knew that before the game, during the game and after the game, and I fully expected a humping.

spike220
05-11-2013, 10:12 PM
:agree:

I might be in the minority but I'm not really bothered about losing 5-1 and wasn't really bothered at the time. The team was utter ****, I knew that before the game, during the game and after the game, and I fully expected a humping.
Is that you Matt Doherty??

The Voice Of Reason
05-11-2013, 10:13 PM
:agree:

I might be in the minority but I'm not really bothered about losing 5-1 and wasn't really bothered at the time. The team was utter ****, I knew that before the game, during the game and after the game, and I fully expected a humping.

No "might" about it !!!!!

Strange viewpoint :confused: but you are entitled to your opinion!

The Voice Of Reason
05-11-2013, 10:14 PM
:
Is that you Matt Doherty??

:tee hee:

B.H.F.C
05-11-2013, 10:16 PM
There is lots to criticise but dismissing two Scottish Cup finals is just ridiculous and does your arguments no favours.

We've been in a total of three of them in the 30 odd years I've been going to games. Two of them in the last two years.

The Celtic on can be forgiven because it was Celtic.

In 2012 I really wish we'd just got knocked out in the semi final.

stantonhibby
05-11-2013, 10:19 PM
The Celtic on can be forgiven because it was Celtic.

In 2012 I really wish we'd just got knocked out in the semi final.

I think he is saying that actually getting to the 2 finals deserves some credit.

B.H.F.C
05-11-2013, 10:40 PM
I think he is saying that actually getting to the 2 finals deserves some credit.

What I really meant to say was that the way the final in 2012 ended meant he wasn't going to get any credit. And rightly so IMO.

OsloHibs
05-11-2013, 10:50 PM
It's a Yes for me

cleanyman
05-11-2013, 10:54 PM
2 consecutive Scottish Cup Final's can't be ignored, mind you neither can the Cup final results.

A Cup Final generally is a rare thing for a Hibs fan, and to get to two on the bounce can be considered a success.

Two sticky wins over Aberdeen,pumping Hearts out, a fabulous away win at Kilmarnock and a cracking semi final tie against Falkirk are the games I will remember Fenlon for.

I'm a happy guy mind you.

rcarter1
05-11-2013, 11:04 PM
The Celtic on can be forgiven because it was Celtic.

In 2012 I really wish we'd just got knocked out in the semi final.

I remember being quietly pleased when Hearts beat Celtic in the semi's, as if fate would be on our side. It might have been better if both sides were put out, that Hibs team was not up to playing in a Cup Final.

neil7908
05-11-2013, 11:10 PM
If he was succeeding he would still be at the club surely?I don't think Hibs fans are so bad that we'd hound out a manager that most folk felt was a decent bloke unless he was failing in his duties.


Ok we did improve but the bar was set so low by CC that its hardly something to shout about.When he joined the club we were sitting in 9th place, we finished 11th that season, 7th last and now 7th again.


Clearly we have "improved" by 2 league places in his time at the club but as many others have mentioned without Rangers and a crippled Hearts its simply not good enough.

Liberal Hibby
05-11-2013, 11:15 PM
Let it go Andy FFS.

Fenlon failed in his time here..Seriously.mate drop it.

Really? He left the team stronger than he found it - not a definition of failure in any book.

MWHIBBIES
05-11-2013, 11:20 PM
Let it go Andy FFS.

Fenlon failed in his time here..Seriously.mate drop it.Don't really see much wrong with his statement, it certainly isn't an indisputable fact that Fenlon failed at Hibs.

Crazyhorse
05-11-2013, 11:21 PM
Pat was a success at Easter road, the issue was the playing mentality was not what we expect from a hibs side.

Season one Task - when he arrived, avoid relegation. [done] Bonus - Cup run.

Season two task - Improve league standing after the hell of last two seasons, finishes 7th best finish in two years. Bonus - Cup Run.

Season three - Top 6 / Europe, was 6th when he left.

If pat had us playing attacking football on the deck, he would still be at the club.

Ironically if he hadn't got us to those two cup finals he might still be in a job. The hearts defeat was hard to stomach and the Malmo debacle was the final straw for many.

Saorsa
05-11-2013, 11:29 PM
Really? He left the team stronger than he found it - not a definition of failure in any book.Hardly a success though it, the last two years? Why can't people just see it how it was, he's done some good, he was responsible for some poor/terrible stuff too. We're in a slightly better place than we were efter colin deadwood, no sure why people have tae dispute that either. Ultimately though over 2 years there wisnae enough improvement where it really mattered. Absolutely nae doubt about his effort, commitment and passion for the job (unlike deadwood who didnae give a ****), I'm sure he absolutely did his best but in the end it just wisnae good enough.

Hibercelona
05-11-2013, 11:33 PM
Really? He left the team stronger than he found it - not a definition of failure in any book.

Who wouldn't have left the team looking stronger than how CC left it?

Just because he bettered CC, doesn't make him good enough, or a success.

Hibercelona
05-11-2013, 11:34 PM
Hardly a success though it, the last two years? Why can't people just see it how it was, he's done some good, he was responsible for some poor/terrible stuff too. We're in a slightly better place than we were efter colin deadwood, no sure why people have tae dispute that either. Ultimately though over 2 years there wisnae enough improvement where it really mattered. Absolutely nae doubt about his effort, commitment and passion for the job (unlike deadwood who didnae give a ****), I'm sure he absolutely did his best but in the end it just wisnae good enough.

This entirely. :agree:

jacomo
05-11-2013, 11:45 PM
Do people really blame Pat for that, good lord. I remember coming on here that night and people were blaming everyone but him, funny how things change :rolleyes:

The 5-1? I remember drinking in a sombre tavern in Leith that night and a fair bit of flak was heading PF's way.

As Andy74 keeps saying in his circular way, you need to take Pat's time in charge as a whole. Apparently he's a nice guy and he sorted out a lot of problems at Hibs - but he was at the helm for some real bad days too.

He chose the team for Hampden and he set them up. On the touch line he looked the loneliest man in the world at times but that's the privilege and pain of being a football manager.

Sir David Gray
05-11-2013, 11:58 PM
I don't think he can be described as a success.

I think he did a lot of good things for us and I don't think he is as bad as some people are making out but a successful manager wins a cup or gets the
team playing consistently well in the league.

Unfortunately we did neither under Fenlon.

I don't think he was a terrible appointment and I think he will succeed at another club of our size.

Who knows how he would have done if he had stayed with us.

hibeedonald
06-11-2013, 12:00 AM
Definitely didn't succeed, better than Colin Calderwood.

Kaiser1962
06-11-2013, 07:21 AM
He succeeded in driving more and more people away from Easter Road.

Sorry G but the stats show a steady increase in attendances during Fenlon's tenure. When he took over crowds were certainly down and averaged 9,909 in 2011-2012. This increased to 10,489 the next season (2012-2013) and Fenlon leaves us with an average attendance for this season of 10,971.

The Voice Of Reason
06-11-2013, 10:29 AM
Really? He left the team stronger than he found it - not a definition of failure in any book.

So could you please list any other reasons why you think Fenlon was a "success" at Hibs ? :aok:

Cropley10
06-11-2013, 10:42 AM
Sorry G but the stats show a steady increase in attendances during Fenlon's tenure. When he took over crowds were certainly down and averaged 9,909 in 2011-2012. This increased to 10,489 the next season (2012-2013) and Fenlon leaves us with an average attendance for this season of 10,971.

Of course the two back to back Cup Finals created a scenario where if you renewed your ST you got a Cup Final ticket. Plenty renewed on this basis.

No way are net attendances going up. My first game of the Season was Celtc. Plenty of folk I know picking and choosing, despite having a ST.

GreenOnions
06-11-2013, 10:44 AM
Some good points and some seriously bad.

It's difficult to assess his level of "success" using statistics because anyone who inherits something virtually at rock bottom is likely to produce positive stats over a period of time because the only way is up.

I think Pat had a lot to deal with in his first 12 to 18 months but this season we really should have been starting to see more if what he was doing was really working I feel. We've seen some fleeting glimpses of the football we'd all like to watch - such as against St Mirren at home and during the first half against Hearts in the cup. We' ve also managed a respectable number of away wins.

Overall though - Pat has improved us but not nearly to the extent that he ought to have done IMO. Lovely man - good luck to him. He did his best.

Andy74
06-11-2013, 11:05 AM
Let it go Andy FFS.

Fenlon failed in his time here..Seriously.mate drop it.

No thanks. Whilst there are still threads and posts on the matter I will give my views.

Mikey
06-11-2013, 11:19 AM
He did some good stuff at Hibs but it was all in the background and it hadn't filtered through to match day. Those 90 mins are what he's judged on by us and that wasn't good.

I've been saying for months that whoever comes in after him will find it easier to kick on and I still believe that.

blackpoolhibs
06-11-2013, 11:31 AM
He did some good stuff at Hibs but it was all in the background and it hadn't filtered through to match day. Those 90 mins are what he's judged on by us and that wasn't good.

I've been saying for months that whoever comes in after him will find it easier to kick on and I still believe that.

Most folk don't give a toss about what's happening behind the scenes, and rightly or wrongly we only as you say judge every manager on what's happening each week on the park.

Fenlons team improved slightly over his tenure, and we dont appear now to be relegation candidates. He might have been a nice man, i don't know never met the man, but his football bored the tits off me, and some of his results were as bad as i have witnessed in 40 odd years supporting the club.

I keep saying it when we appoint every new manager, surely this one can't be as bad as the one thats just left, and if what you say is true hopefully i'm right at last? :pray:

PeterboroHibee
06-11-2013, 11:40 AM
I think some aspects of Fenlons reign at Hibs were successful. He managed to move on a lot of the garbage from our squad, and has built what I think is a reasonably good core of players (although still lacking in some key attributes). He was key in the development of Griffiths which maybe hasnt benefited us long term, but he was by far the best player Ive seen at Hibs for a number of years - it took Fenlon coming in to get the best out of him as it just wasnt happening under Calderwood. He improved the league position on the previous season where we almost got relegated, and also reached two cup finals and Europe (although the results were horrific), something which hadnt happened for a few seasons.

Mikey
06-11-2013, 11:44 AM
I keep saying it when we appoint every new manager, surely this one can't be as bad as the one thats just left, and if what you say is true hopefully i'm right at last? :pray:

To be fair, PF was an improvement on CC :greengrin

Holmesdale Hibs
06-11-2013, 12:02 PM
When he took over, we were a **** SPL team that played brutal football and had a poor squad.

We're now an average SPL team, playing slightly better but still pretty brutal football. The squad is definitely better than under CC.

So I don't think he's been a disaster but a 'success' would be pushing it given the performance in high profile games.

He definitely left us a lot more gracefully than CC and genuinely did his best. Hope he does well in the future.

Dashing Bob S
06-11-2013, 04:50 PM
He was an 'improvement' on Calderwood, in much the same way that Jimmy Tarbuck is an 'improvement' on Jimmy Saville.

But I wouldn't go so far as to call him a 'success.'

Kaiser1962
06-11-2013, 05:09 PM
Of course the two back to back Cup Finals created a scenario where if you renewed your ST you got a Cup Final ticket. Plenty renewed on this basis.

No way are net attendances going up. My first game of the Season was Celtc. Plenty of folk I know picking and choosing, despite having a ST.

But paying customers are showing an increase for whatever reason.

OsloHibs
06-11-2013, 07:41 PM
So could you please list any other reasons why you think Fenlon was a "success" at Hibs ? :aok:

We never got relegated last again season. Got rid of most of the 1-5 squad and rightly so. Brought in Ben Williams- our best keeper for a long time. Worked hard with Leigh that summer, and Leigh credits him with his change as a player last season, had a whole season not getting beat by Hearts, there was a point last season where we were top/2nd in the league, back to back cup finals... and the 2nd half of the Falkirk game- my fave since 6-2. But I'm guessing that's not what you want to hear.

Speedy
06-11-2013, 08:14 PM
No "might" about it !!!!!

Strange viewpoint :confused: but you are entitled to your opinion!

Is it really that strange? Do you think that team was anything other that vastly inferior? Add to that the penalty that wasn't.

The Hearts fans can sing "it should've been 10" all they like, it should've been so that's a failure on their part if anything.

SouthamptonHibs
06-11-2013, 08:28 PM
Pat' s only success for Hibs was not getting us relegated.

Season 1 = finished 11th and pumped by Hearts 5-1 (worst result in history)

Season 2 = finished 7th with no Rangers in the league and Hearts in Admin = total failure plus pumped out the League cup from second div QoS = terrible. Football was dire saved by SReuper Leighs goals. Mini succes was a day out at Hampden in the cup final

Season 3 = worst Scottish European result ever, failed to get the players in and ready for start of Euro campaign, beat from Hearts twice, out league cup, football is dire, 9 league goals all season and Rowan Vine. = terrible so far note once again no Rangers in the league and Hearts in admin on -15.

Academy = still not producing great young talent into the first team. East Mains is 6 years old in Dec, surely the benefits must be here soon!

Verdict = waste of two years and last two seasons, some scares will always be there due to two horrendous results.

steakbake
06-11-2013, 08:31 PM
Anyone else ever thought the time Pat should have gone was much earlier?

A 5-1 doing off your local rivals in a cup final would be a dismissal in many European countries, I reckon. Even if you did survive it, a 7-0 doing at home should have been enough, but I think the timing is down to money.

blackpoolhibs
06-11-2013, 08:33 PM
Anyone else ever thought the time Pat should have gone was much earlier?

A 5-1 doing off your local rivals in a cup final would be a dismissal in many European countries, I reckon. Even if you did survive it, a 7-0 doing at home should have been enough, but I think the timing is down to money.

The Malmo shambles should have seen him out the door that night. :agree:

Beefster
06-11-2013, 08:37 PM
We never got relegated last again season. Got rid of most of the 1-5 squad and rightly so. Brought in Ben Williams- our best keeper for a long time. Worked hard with Leigh that summer, and Leigh credits him with his change as a player last season, had a whole season not getting beat by Hearts, there was a point last season where we were top/2nd in the league, back to back cup finals... and the 2nd half of the Falkirk game- my fave since 6-2. But I'm guessing that's not what you want to hear.

Fenlon recruited about half of the 1-5 squad. Of those that he inherited and played, only Brown, O'Connor and Osbourne left and I'm not sure any were by choice.

hibsbollah
06-11-2013, 08:39 PM
What an odd thread. He self evidently wasnt a success, not much else to add.

stantonhibby
06-11-2013, 08:43 PM
Pat' s only success for Hibs was not getting us relegated.

Season 1 = finished 11th and pumped by Hearts 5-1 (worst result in history)

Season 2 = finished 7th with no Rangers in the league and Hearts in Admin = total failure plus pumped out the League cup from second div QoS = terrible. Football was dire saved by SReuper Leighs goals. Mini succes was a day out at Hampden in the cup final

Season 3 = worst Scottish European result ever, failed to get the players in and ready for start of Euro campaign, beat from Hearts twice, out league cup, football is dire, 9 league goals all season and Rowan Vine. = terrible so far note once again no Rangers in the league and Hearts in admin on -15.

Academy = still not producing great young talent into the first team. East Mains is 6 years old in Dec, surely the benefits must be here soon!

Verdict = waste of two years and last two seasons, some scares will always be there due to two horrendous results.

Hearts weren't in Admin last season.

rcarter1
06-11-2013, 08:43 PM
Pat' s only success for Hibs was not getting us relegated.

Season 1 = finished 11th and pumped by Hearts 5-1 (worst result in history)

Season 2 = finished 7th with no Rangers in the league and Hearts in Admin = total failure plus pumped out the League cup from second div QoS = terrible. Football was dire saved by SReuper Leighs goals. Mini succes was a day out at Hampden in the cup final

Season 3 = worst Scottish European result ever, failed to get the players in and ready for start of Euro campaign, beat from Hearts twice, out league cup, football is dire, 9 league goals all season and Rowan Vine. = terrible so far note once again no Rangers in the league and Hearts in admin on -15.

Academy = still not producing great young talent into the first team. East Mains is 6 years old in Dec, surely the benefits must be here soon!

Verdict = waste of two years and last two seasons, some scares will always be there due to two horrendous results.

Agree with the overall assessment, but Hearts weren't in administration last season, although they were pretty poor. I agree that he basically steadied the ship and brought in a few players, Griffiths being the standout of course. He was however drifting backwards, and crucially doing so in a horrible to watch fashion.

jdships
06-11-2013, 08:44 PM
Surely " success" is like " beauty" .
" It is in the eye of the beholder "
Everyone will probably have a different idea of what constitutes success so it comes down to our old friend OPINION :greengrin

For myself I am a " don't know" given we promised , at times, so much and then quickly the team fell flat on its face

:flag:

basehibby
06-11-2013, 08:45 PM
Qualified success for me - obviously not an outright success or he wouldn't have ended up walking! I think if you look at the downward spiral that we were on in the preceding few seasons then the fact that was turned round into improving league positions, successive cup finals and something approaching the spine of a decent team was something of a success. His major downfall was a very unadventurous style which has lead in large part to some truly dreadful home form - I really think that the pastings suffered at Hampden and in Europe would have been forgiven by most had there been some goals and glory to indulge in for the home support - including a couple vs the Yams the other week! Despite these failings though, I honestly think PF has left the club in significantly better shape than he found it and for that he can hold his head high.

Baldy Foghorn
06-11-2013, 08:51 PM
The Malmo shambles should have seen him out the door that night. :agree:

Agreed. PF was never going to get a contract extension. It suited both parties for him to leave IMO.

Speedy
06-11-2013, 09:28 PM
Anyone else ever thought the time Pat should have gone was much earlier?

A 5-1 doing off your local rivals in a cup final would be a dismissal in many European countries, I reckon. Even if you did survive it, a 7-0 doing at home should have been enough, but I think the timing is down to money.

At half time in the Falkirk game I thought he was away.

The 5-1 game would've been too early. We've had a high turnover of managers and the main aim in his first season was to keep us up imo so starting again wouldn't make sense.

The Voice Of Reason
06-11-2013, 09:28 PM
We never got relegated last again season. Got rid of most of the 1-5 squad and rightly so. Brought in Ben Williams- our best keeper for a long time. Worked hard with Leigh that summer, and Leigh credits him with his change as a player last season, had a whole season not getting beat by Hearts, there was a point last season where we were top/2nd in the league, back to back cup finals... and the 2nd half of the Falkirk game- my fave since 6-2. But I'm guessing that's not what you want to hear.

Wow - we should organise a ticker tape parade !!!!!

:faf:

SouthamptonHibs
06-11-2013, 09:30 PM
Hearts weren't in Admin last season.
Sorry on there way to admin, ie selling all the best players trying to keep there head above water. Hearts were bang in trouble from about Nov / Dec last year mate

jacomo
06-11-2013, 09:32 PM
We never got relegated last again season. Got rid of most of the 1-5 squad and rightly so. Brought in Ben Williams- our best keeper for a long time. Worked hard with Leigh that summer, and Leigh credits him with his change as a player last season, had a whole season not getting beat by Hearts, there was a point last season where we were top/2nd in the league, back to back cup finals... and the 2nd half of the Falkirk game- my fave since 6-2. But I'm guessing that's not what you want to hear.

All valid points in my book.

stantonhibby
06-11-2013, 09:42 PM
Sorry on there way to admin, ie selling all the best players trying to keep there head above water. Hearts were bang in trouble from about Nov / Dec last year mate

True and we beat them twice and should have been 3 times if Griffiths goal had been given.

The Baldmans Comb
07-11-2013, 05:53 AM
He could hardly be regarded as a "success" but he had his moments.

Unfortunately they were rather few and far between but he did make Hibs a better club with better playing staff than when he arrived but progress was pitifully slow.

Is there realy that many fans sorry to see him go.?

Beefster
09-11-2013, 05:33 PM
When Calderwood was sacked, he had 13 points from 14 games, Fenlon's team now has 15 points from 13 games. Not much of an improvement after 2 years.

HiBremian
09-11-2013, 05:36 PM
PF's success = Sparky, no more, no less.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Tapatalk 2

B.H.F.C
09-11-2013, 05:40 PM
When Calderwood was sacked, he had 13 points from 14 games, Fenlon's team now has 15 points from 13 games. Not much of an improvement after 2 years.

But he's changed loads behind the scenes. Apparently.

We are harder to beat. Apparently.

We were mediocre losers when he took over. We are still mediocre losers.

Can anybody seriously look at that line up today and say he built he strongest squad outside Celtic?

Davy Mac
09-11-2013, 05:41 PM
In a word - No

Treadstone
09-11-2013, 05:45 PM
When Calderwood was sacked, he had 13 points from 14 games, Fenlon's team now has 15 points from 13 games. Not much of an improvement after 2 years.

Agree with everything Beefster even thread title is laughable. PF is away now though and I think we should be looking forward. I expect TB to improve us in the short term with better performances and in the medium to hopefully long term with results too. The football won't be as silky as some expect but it will surely be better than the product served up over the last 4-6 years (especially this calendar year).

The Voice Of Reason
09-11-2013, 07:30 PM
Really? He left the team stronger than he found it - not a definition of failure in any book.

I ask again :-

So could you please list any other reasons why you think Fenlon was a "success" at Hibs ? :aok:

erskine-hibby
09-11-2013, 08:10 PM
Fenlon successfully turned a cr@p team into a cr@p bunch of individuals.

leggeto
09-11-2013, 08:20 PM
He took over from calderwood so wasn't hard to look good after him,he did save us from relegation,gradually got a better finishing league position,got to 2 cup finals id wish we didn't,but I think Sparky kept him in a job so when he left it was only a matter of time he had to go

Hibeesforever
09-11-2013, 09:10 PM
I thought in the end he had to resign but to the question was he successful ? In relative terms and based upon how bad things were when he arrived, the answer for me would be yes...
Avoid relegation, two Scottish Cup finals, qualification for Europe and at one point last year, we were top of the league.
However, under his stewardship we had three of the worst results in our history and after today, it can be seen that it will be a while before cavalier football will grace the hallowed ground again.

h1bs4life
09-11-2013, 09:21 PM
No. In charge for some of the worst results in our history. Eye bleeding football, more interested in not getting beat rather than winning.Seen every home game and all cup games he was in charge , can't think off too many I actually enjoyed.

Jones28
10-11-2013, 03:10 AM
Was he ****

He's had 2 minor successes, griffiths and Williams. That's it.

Was in charge for some of the worst results in our history. I'm a fenlon hater but anyone claiming he was a success is ****ing deluded

blackpoolhibs
10-11-2013, 12:21 PM
Look where he took us over from, and look where we are now. Its 2 bald men fighting over a comb. :rolleyes:

IWasThere2016
11-11-2013, 11:38 AM
No.

The last successful Hibs manager was John Collins. Nearly 7 years ago ffs! :grr:

blackpoolhibs
11-11-2013, 11:50 AM
No.

The last successful Hibs manager was John Collins. Nearly 7 years ago ffs! :grr:

No the last manager who was successful was John Hughes, unless 4th place is not success these days?

LancsHibs
11-11-2013, 12:05 PM
Unfortunately for Yogi and Mixu they followed the Mowbray and Collins era when expectations were high and we're judged accordingly. The next man is following Calderclown & Fenlon so it won't take much to look good!!

The Voice Of Reason
11-11-2013, 12:40 PM
Unfortunately for Yogi and Mixu they followed the Mowbray and Collins era when expectations were high and we're judged accordingly. The next man is following Calderclown & Fenlon so it won't take much to look good!!

Nail on head - Fenlon will be spoken about in the same category as Blunderwood..........therefore anyone labelling Feblon as a "success" really does need their head examined !!!!!!!!!

GreenCastle
11-11-2013, 12:51 PM
A success ? Seriously !! No he wasn't - success isn't making us boring to watch - several hammerings and leaving us mid - season.

Regarding the Falkirk semi final - while I was there and it was horrific 1st half and completely different for the rest of the game - that wasn't genius or success - that was the only thing he could have done otherwise we were out the cup. We should never have been losing that game in the manner we did.

Please Hibs fans - success is winning a trophy like Collins did! Not finishing mid / lower half of the table in a pish poor league!

Hibs7
11-11-2013, 01:37 PM
In a word - No

Agreed !!!

Cabbage_Patch
11-11-2013, 01:44 PM
If the 5-1 and the 9-0 hadnt happened(Even if they were narrower losses) do you think he would have resigned so soon? I am not sure but as much as he was a nice guy... he didn't take the club forward very much from the Calderwood and Yogi Era therefore it's right hes stepped aside and I respect him for doing so

Hibercelona
11-11-2013, 01:59 PM
If the 5-1 and the 9-0 hadnt happened(Even if they were narrower losses) do you think he would have resigned so soon? I am not sure but as much as he was a nice guy... he didn't take the club forward very much from the Calderwood and Yogi Era therefore it's right hes stepped aside and I respect him for doing so

The fact that the 5-1 and 9-0 (Agg) happened (and a series of other losses), should have seen him leaving sooner than he did.

Massive blows like that at the end of a season and the start of a new season can have a detrimental effect on how the rest of the season pans out.

I'm still very disappointed that we were relying on him resigning, because Rod and the Board didn't want to admit that they got things wrong again.

southsider
11-11-2013, 02:06 PM
Left us with Collins and Vine. Says it all sadly.

IWasThere2016
11-11-2013, 02:32 PM
No the last manager who was successful was John Hughes, unless 4th place is not success these days?

No for me. Do they hand medals oot for 4th?

smurf
11-11-2013, 03:47 PM
The performances and results in the last four games are proof of the shambles he's left. We are where we were when he was appointed. In need of a clearout.

jacomo
11-11-2013, 04:28 PM
No for me. Do they hand medals oot for 4th?

Nope they hand out a place in Europe - a test we flunked under Yogi as we have under every manager in recent history. He also left an 'unworkable legacy' at the club, c.Rod Petrie

snooky
11-11-2013, 05:01 PM
Was PF a success?

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?start=779&rlz=1T4SUNC_enGB361GB361&biw=1171&bih=605&tbm=isch&tbnid=3Pr04j0Foxy3AM:&imgrefurl=http://bcockman.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/no-english-no-service-no-way-jose/&docid=-4sUQt8nfB1N8M&imgurl=http://bcockman.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/jose.gif%253Fw%253D300%2526h%253D186&w=500&h=311&ei=wQyBUpecD9LxhQf_5YGoAQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&page=43&tbnh=163&tbnw=262&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:92,s:700&tx=154&ty=122

Golden Bear
11-11-2013, 05:05 PM
Certainly not.

He'll be remembered for all the wrong reasons.

blackpoolhibs
11-11-2013, 05:07 PM
No for me. Do they hand medals oot for 4th?

When you qualify for Europe through your league position, that means you have won enough games over the season to do so, won more games than the other teams who wanted to finish 4th and take the prize that comes with that finish.

If you only class success as winning medals, Fenlon won 2 what a ****in success he's been then.:rolleyes:

RestalrigBeans
11-11-2013, 05:16 PM
He'll be remembered as the manager who got us pumped rotten in two consecutive cup finals, and was in charge for our worst european result ever.
Had his teams play shiiite fitbaw, and I mean shiiite, it was woeful at times wasnt it.
Had no control over players attitudes, fitness etc,.
and Griffiths would played for us anyway without PF.
Im not that old, but in my time, he was the worst manager weve ever had.

Good riddance to the man.

Jonnyboy
11-11-2013, 05:17 PM
He's gone and the new man has arrived. Time to move on I reckon :agree:

snooky
11-11-2013, 05:21 PM
He's gone and the new man has arrived. Time to move on I reckon :agree:

FFS, not Arthur Numan??????? :shocked:

WindyMiller
11-11-2013, 05:47 PM
Did he succeed?


8500 attended Saturday's match.

A resounding NO.

IWasThere2016
11-11-2013, 07:18 PM
When you qualify for Europe through your league position, that means you have won enough games over the season to do so, won more games than the other teams who wanted to finish 4th and take the prize that comes with that finish.

If you only class success as winning medals, Fenlon won 2 what a ****in success he's been then.:rolleyes:

I said 'no' :wink: and although PF's cup record is better than Hughes (and a fair few others), he failed.

RIP Bestie
14-11-2013, 11:42 PM
If the 5-1 and the 9-0 hadnt happened(Even if they were narrower losses) do you think he would have resigned so soon? I am not sure but as much as he was a nice guy... he didn't take the club forward very much from the Calderwood and Yogi Era therefore it's right hes stepped aside and I respect him for doing so
Not forgetting the 3 zip in the last final that could easily have been a lot more if Smelic had decided to move into second gear. His successes would be what he got out of Griffiths and Claros when not many Hibs fans wouldn't have bothered if they came back after the first final. Same with Robertson this season who looks a completely different player from what we seen last season. All in all a club like Hibs should never look at success being bottom 6 finishes regardless of cup final appearances. So PF although a really nice man, was not a success and simply had to go.

AgentDaleCooper
15-11-2013, 04:09 PM
IMO fenlon's success as a hibs manager is comparable to that of blobby - got us to hampden but shat it (spectacularly), and steadied a rather rocky ship - albeit at the expense of watchable football. he's blooded a few youngsters as well (though nothing like the crop that we had 9/10 years ago, obviously). the only difference with fenlon was the repeated humiliations we suffered under him (but then again, bobby had his own 5-1 to apologise for, as well as 4-4...he was hardly completely free from debacles).

all in all, i'd say fenlon, like bobby, was by no means a success, but performed a function for us. he didn't bring us much joy - at all - but he has moved us away from the relegation struggles and general slumps we faced under calderwood and yogi, and given the club a (relatively) steady platform on which to build something genuinely exciting.

Springbank
16-11-2013, 09:25 AM
IMO fenlon's success as a hibs manager is comparable to that of blobby - got us to hampden but shat it (spectacularly), and steadied a rather rocky ship - albeit at the expense of watchable football. he's blooded a few youngsters as well (though nothing like the crop that we had 9/10 years ago, obviously). the only difference with fenlon was the repeated humiliations we suffered under him (but then again, bobby had his own 5-1 to apologise for, as well as 4-4...he was hardly completely free from debacles).

all in all, i'd say fenlon, like bobby, was by no means a success, but performed a function for us. he didn't bring us much joy - at all - but he has moved us away from the relegation struggles and general slumps we faced under calderwood and yogi, and given the club a (relatively) steady platform on which to build something genuinely exciting.

The biggest ever home defeat in our history

Single handedly throwing away all of the glitter that surrounded the scoreline zero7

The worst European score in our nation's history (not just our club)

Likelihood that his 2 worst results will still be talked about in 80, 90, 100 years time

Not exactly rip-roaring

I'll never forgive him

green day
16-11-2013, 09:55 AM
The biggest ever home defeat in our history

Single handedly throwing away all of the glitter that surrounded the scoreline zero7

The worst European score in our nation's history (not just our club)

Likelihood that his 2 worst results will still be talked about in 80, 90, 100 years time

Not exactly rip-roaring

I'll never forgive him

This - 100%, and before anyone goes 'he was a nice guy' - re-read springbanks quote above and tell me if we should even be talking about PF - lets just move on.

dodecar
16-11-2013, 11:13 AM
I think Pat succeeded up to a point,let's not forget how poor we were under CC. I also feel he was unlucky with injuries Clancy ,McPake and Harris all have had long term problems. Fenlon was also rather conservative about playing youth ,I'm sure Harris could well have been introduced before he was and he was reluctant to keep Forster in the side even after playing well. His signings have been mixed ,I can't for the life of me see what he saw in Collins,but I hope to be proved wrong.PF is a nice ,hard working and earnest guy .I'm sure we all hope he'll find work and do well in the future ,it's a tough racket the management game.

dodecar
16-11-2013, 11:25 AM
IMO fenlon's success as a hibs manager is comparable to that of blobby - got us to hampden but shat it (spectacularly), and steadied a rather rocky ship - albeit at the expense of watchable football. he's blooded a few youngsters as well (though nothing like the crop that we had 9/10 years ago, obviously). the only difference with fenlon was the repeated humiliations we suffered under him (but then again, bobby had his own 5-1 to apologise for, as well as 4-4...he was hardly completely free from debacles).

all in all, i'd say fenlon, like bobby, was by no means a success, but performed a function for us. he didn't bring us much joy - at all - but he has moved us away from the relegation struggles and general slumps we faced under calderwood and yogi, and given the club a (relatively) steady platform on which to build something genuinely exciting.

I agree . He did a job,steadied the ship ,but we still looked a bit rudderless at times . He did make it bit easier for the next guy.

RIP Bestie
16-11-2013, 12:38 PM
I think Pat succeeded up to a point,let's not forget how poor we were under CC. I also feel he was unlucky with injuries Clancy ,McPake and Harris all have had long term problems. Fenlon was also rather conservative about playing youth ,I'm sure Harris could well have been introduced before he was and he was reluctant to keep Forster in the side even after playing well. His signings have been mixed ,I can't for the life of me see what he saw in Collins,but I hope to be proved wrong.PF is a nice ,hard working and earnest guy .I'm sure we all hope he'll find work and do well in the future ,it's a tough racket the management game.
When it comes down to measuring success results play a massive part in assessing what level someone is at. Unfortunately where this is concerned Pat was found wanting. Some of the results that were produced by his teams were an embarrassment to the club and will long live in the memory for all the wrong reasons. Pat could have and should have in my opinion addressed the McPake and Clancy situation, why was Clancy the only recognised right back at the club or so long even although he was unavailable for most of that time? His signing policy baffled me at best. So many central midfield players signed over two transfer windows when we were crying out for width and quality in defence.
in my opinion there is far too much hope and expectation being pinned on the shoulders of young Harris and Forster. These are two young boys who have played a handful of first team games but it's as if they are the ones who are expected to take us to the next level. In my opinion they should be introduced gradually rather that be thrust in and expected to carry the team. I understand why people want to see them in the team and that's because they are seen as better than we have got. Surely Pat should have addressed this? Because he didn't we had to endure the like of McPake who in my opinion is a bombscare. The players he did bring in for these areas seemed to me to be desperation rather than anything else although I don't include Nelson in that. Need I say any more than Matt Done? I get your point about Pat being a nice guy and I'm sure as a manager his persona and attitude rubbed off on the team. In life the nice guy tends to get rolled over, I don't see how that would be different in football.

Ross4356
16-11-2013, 03:22 PM
Nice guy, failure, good riddance

dodecar
17-11-2013, 08:13 PM
When it comes down to measuring success results play a massive part in assessing what level someone is at. Unfortunately where this is concerned Pat was found wanting. Some of the results that were produced by his teams were an embarrassment to the club and will long live in the memory for all the wrong reasons. Pat could have and should have in my opinion addressed the McPake and Clancy situation, why was Clancy the only recognised right back at the club or so long even although he was unavailable for most of that time? His signing policy baffled me at best. So many central midfield players signed over two transfer windows when we were crying out for width and quality in defence.
in my opinion there is far too much hope and expectation being pinned on the shoulders of young Harris and Forster. These are two young boys who have played a handful of first team games but it's as if they are the ones who are expected to take us to the next level. In my opinion they should be introduced gradually rather that be thrust in and expected to carry the team. I understand why people want to see them in the team and that's because they are seen as better than we have got. Surely Pat should have addressed this? Because he didn't we had to endure the like of McPake who in my opinion is a bombscare. The players he did bring in for these areas seemed to me to be desperation rather than anything else although I don't include Nelson in that. Need I say any more than Matt Done? I get your point about Pat being a nice guy and I'm sure as a manager his persona and attitude rubbed off on the team. In life the nice guy tends to get rolled over, I don't see how that would be different in football.

There's a great deal in what you say ,I would contend that Harris and Forster are good enough and any team should play their best 11.The right back area Fenlon was really unlucky with ,that has to be said ,but taking that guy from the Yak was panic ,pure and simple.

The Voice Of Reason
23-11-2013, 08:16 PM
Approx 460 minutes without a goal..........it's Fenlon's team.:grr:

Does anyone still think Fenlon was a "success" ?!

:devil:

Albion Hibs
23-11-2013, 09:10 PM
No.