Reflection

[Twa Cairpets]

After a couple of days of reflection and miring myself in the misery of the .net board, and with apologies for the longi-ish post, there are a few things that are repeating themes that I think are worth considering after the initial reaction to the defeat. In no particular order:

“Why the silence”

Similar I think to why referees don’t speak after games. Whatever is said would just fuel more ire, speculation and fury.

“We’re sorry for letting everyone down” – More words! We want action

“Fenlon is staying” – Incompetent appointment in the first place! Weak leadership” incompetence!

“Fenlon is going” – You should go to, the problem is deeper than him. Incompetence!

I’m not defending the board here. But if ever there’s a case of damned if you do damned if you don’t its this.

I’ll not be back until Fenlon/Petrie/All of them have gone.

Why? What are you actually seeking to achieve by way of protest? Football supporting is entirely irrational. You go to games because you want to. If the cost and hassle and emotional turmoil it causes you outweighs the enjoyment you get, don’t go. End of. Hufftie-pufftie “I won’t be back” stuff is to me just posturing bollocks. If you want to go, but don’t, the only person you’re hurting is yourself, surely. The argument – “hit Hibs in the pocket, it’s the only way things will change” is insane when you think about it. That’s just making it harder for whoever, ultimately, does come in, and harder for the players on the park playing in front of dwindling crowds.
There will be many more stop going due to apathy and that is the big worry, and that is where the impact will be seen by the club. This is different to adopting some weird version of a principled stance.

Abuse

Anyone who watched James Collins on Wednesday and still thinks it’s a good idea to boo their own players because they make a mistake should really go on some basic emotional intelligence training. Giving utterly moronic, brainless pelters to him, Vine, McPake – whoever – can, under no circumstances short of deliberately dribbling past their own defenders to slot one past Williams be justified. Ever.

Social Media

There’s a difference between a relatively innocuous post by a player and a torrent of personal abuse directed towards them. People need to seriously take a perspective check on what is acceptable behaviour. Players shouldn’t bite, of course, but the fact that they are paid as footballers doesn’t mean they automatically must also accept the type of pathetic guff that is directed at them.

“The worst Hibs team/performance/no.9/manager etc ever”

I suspect if you look back over Hibs net over the years there will be posts of this nature after every defeat. People who post these types of comments are either eleven years old or have some serious memory deficiency.

Football Men

Given that Petrie has been immersed in the professional game for well over a decade, I think the accusation of him not being a football man is facile. He may not have been a player, but then neither was Arsene Wenger. Being a “football man” doesn’t make you good at being an administrator or manager or chief exec. Look at Willie Miller, Gordon Smith or Jim Duffy.

Being a Hibby.

I know we’re all fans for different reasons, and have different levels of passion, commitment and interest. The level of interest, passion etc will vary season to season as life changes and the team changes. The one thing that is – certainly for the vast majority – is that once a Hibby, always a Hibby. The divide into “happy-clapper” or “doom-and-gloomer” is false – everyone has their own take, and that is fine. However, I do genuinely believe that as a whole, we have one serious chip on our shoulder. I’m fortunate that I’ve been to around 50 grounds in England as neutral, and I’ve not come across a support like ours, ever. When we’re good, we are genuinely up there with the very, very best – SOL at the LC Final, the last 20 at Hampden last year, and the frankly remarkable tenacity for crowds to keep going through MIxu, Hughes, Calderwood and Fenlon. But when we’re bad, it is pretty vitriolic. There are mitigating circumstances, sure, but I am convinced that a sizeable minority of the crowd go because they actually like being miserable. All you have to do is come on to .net after a defeat and the same names and posters who are conspicuously absent after a decent performance or a win are on with barely undisguised glee. It’s just weird.

I’m not going to comment on Petrie or Fenlon particularly, as they are, whatever anyone thinks, just passing through. That said, I think Fenlons position is now untenable and Farmer, probably, needs to think that the strategic management of the club needs to be refreshed.

Overall, as I put on another thread, the danger for Hibs is that the tipping point has been reached for fans where they just don’t enjoy it anymore. When they’r elost. They’re lost. I hope it doesn’t come to this for the fans on this board who are the real reason for the club to exist and its lifeblood. What doesn’t help us at all when we are at a bad place is the unthinking, unreasoned and monumentally short-term knee jerk reactions we are all prone too.

[Just_Jimmy]

Excellent post.

[hibeelin]

Well said. :top marks

[alexedwards]

Hufftie-pufftie “I won’t be back” stuff is to me just posturing bollocks.

When they're lost. They're lost. :confused:

[Stevie Reid]

A very good and well balanced post :aok:

[Elephant Stone]

Totally agree.

[khib70]

After a couple of days of reflection and miring myself in the misery of the .net board, and with apologies for the longi-ish post, there are a few things that are repeating themes that I think are worth considering after the initial reaction to the defeat. In no particular order:

“Why the silence”

Similar I think to why referees don’t speak after games. Whatever is said would just fuel more ire, speculation and fury.

“We’re sorry for letting everyone down” – More words! We want action

“Fenlon is staying” – Incompetent appointment in the first place! Weak leadership” incompetence!

“Fenlon is going” – You should go to, the problem is deeper than him. Incompetence!

I’m not defending the board here. But if ever there’s a case of damned if you do damned if you don’t its this.

I’ll not be back until Fenlon/Petrie/All of them have gone.

Why? What are you actually seeking to achieve by way of protest? Football supporting is entirely irrational. You go to games because you want to. If the cost and hassle and emotional turmoil it causes you outweighs the enjoyment you get, don’t go. End of. Hufftie-pufftie “I won’t be back” stuff is to me just posturing bollocks. If you want to go, but don’t, the only person you’re hurting is yourself, surely. The argument – “hit Hibs in the pocket, it’s the only way things will change” is insane when you think about it. That’s just making it harder for whoever, ultimately, does come in, and harder for the players on the park playing in front of dwindling crowds.
There will be many more stop going due to apathy and that is the big worry, and that is where the impact will be seen by the club. This is different to adopting some weird version of a principled stance.

Abuse

Anyone who watched James Collins on Wednesday and still thinks it’s a good idea to boo their own players because they make a mistake should really go on some basic emotional intelligence training. Giving utterly moronic, brainless pelters to him, Vine, McPake – whoever – can, under no circumstances short of deliberately dribbling past their own defenders to slot one past Williams be justified. Ever.

Social Media

There’s a difference between a relatively innocuous post by a player and a torrent of personal abuse directed towards them. People need to seriously take a perspective check on what is acceptable behaviour. Players shouldn’t bite, of course, but the fact that they are paid as footballers doesn’t mean they automatically must also accept the type of pathetic guff that is directed at them.

“The worst Hibs team/performance/no.9/manager etc ever”

I suspect if you look back over Hibs net over the years there will be posts of this nature after every defeat. People who post these types of comments are either eleven years old or have some serious memory deficiency.

Football Men

Given that Petrie has been immersed in the professional game for well over a decade, I think the accusation of him not being a football man is facile. He may not have been a player, but then neither was Arsene Wenger. Being a “football man” doesn’t make you good at being an administrator or manager or chief exec. Look at Willie Miller, Gordon Smith or Jim Duffy.

Being a Hibby.

I know we’re all fans for different reasons, and have different levels of passion, commitment and interest. The level of interest, passion etc will vary season to season as life changes and the team changes. The one thing that is – certainly for the vast majority – is that once a Hibby, always a Hibby. The divide into “happy-clapper” or “doom-and-gloomer” is false – everyone has their own take, and that is fine. However, I do genuinely believe that as a whole, we have one serious chip on our shoulder. I’m fortunate that I’ve been to around 50 grounds in England as neutral, and I’ve not come across a support like ours, ever. When we’re good, we are genuinely up there with the very, very best – SOL at the LC Final, the last 20 at Hampden last year, and the frankly remarkable tenacity for crowds to keep going through MIxu, Hughes, Calderwood and Fenlon. But when we’re bad, it is pretty vitriolic. There are mitigating circumstances, sure, but I am convinced that a sizeable minority of the crowd go because they actually like being miserable. All you have to do is come on to .net after a defeat and the same names and posters who are conspicuously absent after a decent performance or a win are on with barely undisguised glee. It’s just weird.

I’m not going to comment on Petrie or Fenlon particularly, as they are, whatever anyone thinks, just passing through. That said, I think Fenlons position is now untenable and Farmer, probably, needs to think that the strategic management of the club needs to be refreshed.

Overall, as I put on another thread, the danger for Hibs is that the tipping point has been reached for fans where they just don’t enjoy it anymore. When they’r elost. They’re lost. I hope it doesn’t come to this for the fans on this board who are the real reason for the club to exist and its lifeblood. What doesn’t help us at all when we are at a bad place is the unthinking, unreasoned and monumentally short-term knee jerk reactions we are all prone too.
Sorry, but this is just the kind of revisionism we've all seen before.

As supporters, the only power we really have is to make the decision not to attend games. Empty seats make the board take notice, in a way they never seem to do when faced with any other form of protest. I won't be back myself until Fenlon is history. As my partner and I are ST holders, this isn't going to hit the club financially, but it's making a point.

So it's unacceptable for you to indulge in throwing insults at those who have genuinely had enough bad football and the occasional outright humiliation. Indeed it's hypocritical, given your occupying the moral high ground on players being abused. I'm not tolerating the Twitter hatefests in any way, but people are angry, and they have every right to be. Sometimes that anger is not expressed in an acceptable way, especially in the heat of the moment.

And this mantra about "short-term, knee-jerk reactions" etc is just nonsense. What the majority of people are reacting two is just short of two years of underachievement, expressed through negative, unproductive football, and punctuated with outright humiliations like Wednesday. The core support of this club, the season ticket holders, are angry and frustrated at a board and a manager (despite his "nice guy" image) who arrogantly ignore their concerns and smugly assert time and time again that they know best.

I've had the same time as you have for "sober reflection" and I haven't changed my view that Wednesday night was simply the latest in a long line of demonstrations that Fenlon is way out of his depth and should have gone long ago. The idea that loyal supporters, like myself, who make the painful and difficult decision to vote with their feet as "unthinking and unreasoning" is insulting and patronising.

[NAE NOOKIE]

After a couple of days of reflection and miring myself in the misery of the .net board, and with apologies for the longi-ish post, there are a few things that are repeating themes that I think are worth considering after the initial reaction to the defeat. In no particular order:

“Why the silence”

Similar I think to why referees don’t speak after games. Whatever is said would just fuel more ire, speculation and fury.

“We’re sorry for letting everyone down” – More words! We want action

“Fenlon is staying” – Incompetent appointment in the first place! Weak leadership” incompetence!

“Fenlon is going” – You should go to, the problem is deeper than him. Incompetence!

I’m not defending the board here. But if ever there’s a case of damned if you do damned if you don’t its this.

I’ll not be back until Fenlon/Petrie/All of them have gone.

Why? What are you actually seeking to achieve by way of protest? Football supporting is entirely irrational. You go to games because you want to. If the cost and hassle and emotional turmoil it causes you outweighs the enjoyment you get, don’t go. End of. Hufftie-pufftie “I won’t be back” stuff is to me just posturing bollocks. If you want to go, but don’t, the only person you’re hurting is yourself, surely. The argument – “hit Hibs in the pocket, it’s the only way things will change” is insane when you think about it. That’s just making it harder for whoever, ultimately, does come in, and harder for the players on the park playing in front of dwindling crowds.
There will be many more stop going due to apathy and that is the big worry, and that is where the impact will be seen by the club. This is different to adopting some weird version of a principled stance.

Abuse

Anyone who watched James Collins on Wednesday and still thinks it’s a good idea to boo their own players because they make a mistake should really go on some basic emotional intelligence training. Giving utterly moronic, brainless pelters to him, Vine, McPake – whoever – can, under no circumstances short of deliberately dribbling past their own defenders to slot one past Williams be justified. Ever.

Social Media

There’s a difference between a relatively innocuous post by a player and a torrent of personal abuse directed towards them. People need to seriously take a perspective check on what is acceptable behaviour. Players shouldn’t bite, of course, but the fact that they are paid as footballers doesn’t mean they automatically must also accept the type of pathetic guff that is directed at them.

“The worst Hibs team/performance/no.9/manager etc ever”

I suspect if you look back over Hibs net over the years there will be posts of this nature after every defeat. People who post these types of comments are either eleven years old or have some serious memory deficiency.

Football Men

Given that Petrie has been immersed in the professional game for well over a decade, I think the accusation of him not being a football man is facile. He may not have been a player, but then neither was Arsene Wenger. Being a “football man” doesn’t make you good at being an administrator or manager or chief exec. Look at Willie Miller, Gordon Smith or Jim Duffy.

Being a Hibby.

I know we’re all fans for different reasons, and have different levels of passion, commitment and interest. The level of interest, passion etc will vary season to season as life changes and the team changes. The one thing that is – certainly for the vast majority – is that once a Hibby, always a Hibby. The divide into “happy-clapper” or “doom-and-gloomer” is false – everyone has their own take, and that is fine. However, I do genuinely believe that as a whole, we have one serious chip on our shoulder. I’m fortunate that I’ve been to around 50 grounds in England as neutral, and I’ve not come across a support like ours, ever. When we’re good, we are genuinely up there with the very, very best – SOL at the LC Final, the last 20 at Hampden last year, and the frankly remarkable tenacity for crowds to keep going through MIxu, Hughes, Calderwood and Fenlon. But when we’re bad, it is pretty vitriolic. There are mitigating circumstances, sure, but I am convinced that a sizeable minority of the crowd go because they actually like being miserable. All you have to do is come on to .net after a defeat and the same names and posters who are conspicuously absent after a decent performance or a win are on with barely undisguised glee. It’s just weird.

I’m not going to comment on Petrie or Fenlon particularly, as they are, whatever anyone thinks, just passing through. That said, I think Fenlons position is now untenable and Farmer, probably, needs to think that the strategic management of the club needs to be refreshed.

Overall, as I put on another thread, the danger for Hibs is that the tipping point has been reached for fans where they just don’t enjoy it anymore. When they’r elost. They’re lost. I hope it doesn’t come to this for the fans on this board who are the real reason for the club to exist and its lifeblood. What doesn’t help us at all when we are at a bad place is the unthinking, unreasoned and monumentally short-term knee jerk reactions we are all prone too.

Good post TC ..... Though theres a couple of bits I dont quite agree with the spirit of it is beyond question.

As I said on another post .... I cant pretend to be happy with whats going on at ER but stop going to support the team? Never.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

A moment of clarity amongst the maelström...

[Saorsa]

Sorry, but this is just the kind of revisionism we've all seen before.

As supporters, the only power we really have is to make the decision not to attend games. Empty seats make the board take notice, in a way they never seem to do when faced with any other form of protest. I won't be back myself until Fenlon is history. As my partner and I are ST holders, this isn't going to hit the club financially, but it's making a point.

So it's unacceptable for you to indulge in throwing insults at those who have genuinely had enough bad football and the occasional outright humiliation. Indeed it's hypocritical, given your occupying the moral high ground on players being abused. I'm not tolerating the Twitter hatefests in any way, but people are angry, and they have every right to be. Sometimes that anger is not expressed in an acceptable way, especially in the heat of the moment.

And this mantra about "short-term, knee-jerk reactions" etc is just nonsense. What the majority of people are reacting two is just short of two years of underachievement, expressed through negative, unproductive football, and punctuated with outright humiliations like Wednesday. The core support of this club, the season ticket holders, are angry and frustrated at a board and a manager (despite his "nice guy" image) who arrogantly ignore their concerns and smugly assert time and time again that they know best.

I've had the same time as you have for "sober reflection" and I haven't changed my view that Wednesday night was simply the latest in a long line of demonstrations that Fenlon is way out of his depth and should have gone long ago. The idea that loyal supporters, like myself, who make the painful and difficult decision to vote with their feet as "unthinking and unreasoning" is insulting and patronising.Only post on this thread I agree with, well said.

[HFC 0-7]

If everyone kept going with no moaning and we kept finishing 6,7,8 etc, what would motivate Petrie to change things? The fact Petrie has in the past punted managers who the fans were calling to be axed right before agm's shows that fan pressure applies, do you think those managers would have been punted if the fans were all turning up, with none of the bollocks "posturing"?

[Twa Cairpets]

Sorry, but this is just the kind of revisionism we've all seen before.

As supporters, the only power we really have is to make the decision not to attend games. Empty seats make the board take notice, in a way they never seem to do when faced with any other form of protest. I won't be back myself until Fenlon is history. As my partner and I are ST holders, this isn't going to hit the club financially, but it's making a point.

So it's unacceptable for you to indulge in throwing insults at those who have genuinely had enough bad football and the occasional outright humiliation. Indeed it's hypocritical, given your occupying the moral high ground on players being abused. I'm not tolerating the Twitter hatefests in any way, but people are angry, and they have every right to be. Sometimes that anger is not expressed in an acceptable way, especially in the heat of the moment.

And this mantra about "short-term, knee-jerk reactions" etc is just nonsense. What the majority of people are reacting two is just short of two years of underachievement, expressed through negative, unproductive football, and punctuated with outright humiliations like Wednesday. The core support of this club, the season ticket holders, are angry and frustrated at a board and a manager (despite his "nice guy" image) who arrogantly ignore their concerns and smugly assert time and time again that they know best.

I've had the same time as you have for "sober reflection" and I haven't changed my view that Wednesday night was simply the latest in a long line of demonstrations that Fenlon is way out of his depth and should have gone long ago. The idea that loyal supporters, like myself, who make the painful and difficult decision to vote with their feet as "unthinking and unreasoning" is insulting and patronising.

I honestly don't think it is revisionism. I'm not changing anything, I'm not lessening the impact the result had (certainly on me - I was and am gutted, more so than the final as it happens), but it doesn't stop me thinking about it in what I hope is a rational manner.

I don't think I'm particularly throwing insults at individuals. I'm suggesting some of the behaviours are moronic, and even if I am throwing insults, it's a common-interest, anonymous message board. I'm not directly and publicly saying "Vine/McPake/whoever you're a total c*** and you should f*** off". I am absolutely trying to take a bit of moral high ground, as I think that's where we should be. I'm glad you agree about the twitter rubbish. I don't think it's hypocritical to condemn such an action.

.net, in my opinion, has given a short term reaction. In fairness that's what it is there for to an extent - to allow people to vent. In my opinion, when I've looked through, a lot of it is knee-jerk in that it doesnt do any benefot to anyone, or is just unthinking stupidity. you may disagree, and that's fine, but if you read the comments on, for example Vine, they are pointless, witless and definitely not Hibs Class. What do people get out of it? Do they think it'll make him a better player?

As for the board, I said I think they need to address the situation. I don't agree that the long term best interests of the club are best served by a boycott, and the only individuals who are hurt are those who want to go and choose not to! That's just beyond my comprehension. It's not principled, at the end of the day it's a football club playing football games, and you're just denying yourself a thing that gives you (in theory at least) pleasure.

If you choose to feel patronised or insulted by the post that, I would suggest, is your problem, and to an extent is in my opinion evidence of more knee-jerking. I do think as noted above that to choose not to go (if you are able to) for any reason other than you simply don't enjoy it any more is unthinking and unreasoning. It may make a difference - I don't know - and I may be wrong, Petrie may look and say "oh, time to get rid", but in the meantime all that is happening is that you are reducing the ability for the club to compete in the long term. Plenty people have said "we're underachieving". We certainly will with crowds of say 6000.

Fenlon will go. It's inevitable. As I said in the OP, the only thing that clubs are, really, is their supporters. Its bizarre, to me, that many are choosing not to support.

[Shaggy]

Ive been back regular since 2001,

Highlights-
Watching our Gold vein for a couple of years and finishing 3rd.
CIS final.
Having a day out and getting pished.
Ayr away in the cup(proper party).
Beating Dunfermline away when we were dangling over the drop.
Infrastructure built and secured.
Thats what I remember of this time.

Many embarrassments over the last couple of years but hey,
Ive never known regular competitive success over this period.

See out this year, review, restart in the summer.

Fk sake, we are not good, but not crumbling away,
its the emotional venting thats ramping up a crisis.:rolleyes:

[Sammy7nil]

Sorry, but this is just the kind of revisionism we've all seen before.

As supporters, the only power we really have is to make the decision not to attend games. Empty seats make the board take notice, in a way they never seem to do when faced with any other form of protest. I won't be back myself until Fenlon is history. As my partner and I are ST holders, this isn't going to hit the club financially, but it's making a point.

So it's unacceptable for you to indulge in throwing insults at those who have genuinely had enough bad football and the occasional outright humiliation. Indeed it's hypocritical, given your occupying the moral high ground on players being abused. I'm not tolerating the Twitter hatefests in any way, but people are angry, and they have every right to be. Sometimes that anger is not expressed in an acceptable way, especially in the heat of the moment.

And this mantra about "short-term, knee-jerk reactions" etc is just nonsense. What the majority of people are reacting two is just short of two years of underachievement, expressed through negative, unproductive football, and punctuated with outright humiliations like Wednesday. The core support of this club, the season ticket holders, are angry and frustrated at a board and a manager (despite his "nice guy" image) who arrogantly ignore their concerns and smugly assert time and time again that they know best.

I've had the same time as you have for "sober reflection" and I haven't changed my view that Wednesday night was simply the latest in a long line of demonstrations that Fenlon is way out of his depth and should have gone long ago. The idea that loyal supporters, like myself, who make the painful and difficult decision to vote with their feet as "unthinking and unreasoning" is insulting and patronising.

I agree with the vast majority of this post. My reaction is not knee jerk in anway.

I think Hibs the club and the fans need to decide what we can realistically expect from our manager and players and where we feel our budget and commitment should allow at least think a top 6 finish season on season is not out of the question. I have been watching Hibs for 40 odd years since I was about 5 imho we have under achieved in about 30 or more of those seasons. The club needs simple clear strategic aims. I genuinely think fans would accept 6 - 8th place in the league if they saw progress in the style and quality of play and club stated there medium to long term ambitions of how we will play and engage with the fans and the wider community.

To watch the standard of football we have had to endure for over the past 5 - 6 years it beggers belief we can still muster crowds around the 10,000 mark.

[Spike Mandela]

After a couple of days of reflection and miring myself in the misery of the .net board, and with apologies for the longi-ish post, there are a few things that are repeating themes that I think are worth considering after the initial reaction to the defeat. In no particular order:

“Why the silence”

Similar I think to why referees don’t speak after games. Whatever is said would just fuel more ire, speculation and fury.

“We’re sorry for letting everyone down” – More words! We want action

“Fenlon is staying” – Incompetent appointment in the first place! Weak leadership” incompetence!

“Fenlon is going” – You should go to, the problem is deeper than him. Incompetence!

I’m not defending the board here. But if ever there’s a case of damned if you do damned if you don’t its this.

I’ll not be back until Fenlon/Petrie/All of them have gone.

Why? What are you actually seeking to achieve by way of protest? Football supporting is entirely irrational. You go to games because you want to. If the cost and hassle and emotional turmoil it causes you outweighs the enjoyment you get, don’t go. End of. Hufftie-pufftie “I won’t be back” stuff is to me just posturing bollocks. If you want to go, but don’t, the only person you’re hurting is yourself, surely. The argument – “hit Hibs in the pocket, it’s the only way things will change” is insane when you think about it. That’s just making it harder for whoever, ultimately, does come in, and harder for the players on the park playing in front of dwindling crowds.
There will be many more stop going due to apathy and that is the big worry, and that is where the impact will be seen by the club. This is different to adopting some weird version of a principled stance.

Abuse

Anyone who watched James Collins on Wednesday and still thinks it’s a good idea to boo their own players because they make a mistake should really go on some basic emotional intelligence training. Giving utterly moronic, brainless pelters to him, Vine, McPake – whoever – can, under no circumstances short of deliberately dribbling past their own defenders to slot one past Williams be justified. Ever.

Social Media

There’s a difference between a relatively innocuous post by a player and a torrent of personal abuse directed towards them. People need to seriously take a perspective check on what is acceptable behaviour. Players shouldn’t bite, of course, but the fact that they are paid as footballers doesn’t mean they automatically must also accept the type of pathetic guff that is directed at them.

“The worst Hibs team/performance/no.9/manager etc ever”

I suspect if you look back over Hibs net over the years there will be posts of this nature after every defeat. People who post these types of comments are either eleven years old or have some serious memory deficiency.

Football Men

Given that Petrie has been immersed in the professional game for well over a decade, I think the accusation of him not being a football man is facile. He may not have been a player, but then neither was Arsene Wenger. Being a “football man” doesn’t make you good at being an administrator or manager or chief exec. Look at Willie Miller, Gordon Smith or Jim Duffy.

Being a Hibby.

I know we’re all fans for different reasons, and have different levels of passion, commitment and interest. The level of interest, passion etc will vary season to season as life changes and the team changes. The one thing that is – certainly for the vast majority – is that once a Hibby, always a Hibby. The divide into “happy-clapper” or “doom-and-gloomer” is false – everyone has their own take, and that is fine. However, I do genuinely believe that as a whole, we have one serious chip on our shoulder. I’m fortunate that I’ve been to around 50 grounds in England as neutral, and I’ve not come across a support like ours, ever. When we’re good, we are genuinely up there with the very, very best – SOL at the LC Final, the last 20 at Hampden last year, and the frankly remarkable tenacity for crowds to keep going through MIxu, Hughes, Calderwood and Fenlon. But when we’re bad, it is pretty vitriolic. There are mitigating circumstances, sure, but I am convinced that a sizeable minority of the crowd go because they actually like being miserable. All you have to do is come on to .net after a defeat and the same names and posters who are conspicuously absent after a decent performance or a win are on with barely undisguised glee. It’s just weird.

I’m not going to comment on Petrie or Fenlon particularly, as they are, whatever anyone thinks, just passing through. That said, I think Fenlons position is now untenable and Farmer, probably, needs to think that the strategic management of the club needs to be refreshed.

Overall, as I put on another thread, the danger for Hibs is that the tipping point has been reached for fans where they just don’t enjoy it anymore. When they’r elost. They’re lost. I hope it doesn’t come to this for the fans on this board who are the real reason for the club to exist and its lifeblood. What doesn’t help us at all when we are at a bad place is the unthinking, unreasoned and monumentally short-term knee jerk reactions we are all prone too.

So, what are you trying to say likes?:cb

[Keith_M]

So, what are you trying to say likes?:cb


I was wondering that as well. I'm struggling to get a coherent point of view from the OP.

My suspicion is that he means "Hibs have always been sh*te to average and we should just be real fans and let it all blow over".

I hope I'm wrong.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Re. "Football Men" , Jose Mourinho wasn't one.

[Twa Cairpets]

I was wondering that as well. I'm struggling to get a coherent point of view from the OP.

My suspicion is that he means "Hibs have always been sh*te to average and we should just be real fans and let it all blow over".

I hope I'm wrong.

It's not that, I promise. I'm not into this uber fan crap - football is great, at least in part, because it irrationally gets people excited.

I was honing in on the reactions of people that in any other area would be seen as bonkers, at least to me.

The closest, rather crass analogy I can think of is of someone saying to their partner "right, I enjoy sex, but we're not going to do it anymore until you get better at it".

As for blowing over, it will. How many fans are still there as they've been bored to tears is another matter, but we'll have a good run again at some point with either Fenlon or someone new, and we'll all react as if the world is good again. Then we'll get papped by someone, someone will have a stinker of a game, and suddenly all is wrong on the world.

If - and it's a big if, I accept - if we had won on Wednesday and not hit the woodwork twice in the first 30 minutes, this board would have been very different. That one game in which we were unfortunate and beaten by their only meaningful shot which was, sad to admit, excellent has turned people loopy. I'm not defending Fenlon - I think as I've said his position is totally untenable, and Petrie must be aware of this, it's just if you decide not to go to see us play, say Dundee Utd because Hearts beat us then that just doesnt make sense to me.

[The Sea-gull]

After a couple of days of reflection and miring myself in the misery of the .net board, and with apologies for the longi-ish post, there are a few things that are repeating themes that I think are worth considering after the initial reaction to the defeat. In no particular order:

“Why the silence”

Similar I think to why referees don’t speak after games. Whatever is said would just fuel more ire, speculation and fury.

“We’re sorry for letting everyone down” – More words! We want action

“Fenlon is staying” – Incompetent appointment in the first place! Weak leadership” incompetence!

“Fenlon is going” – You should go to, the problem is deeper than him. Incompetence!

I’m not defending the board here. But if ever there’s a case of damned if you do damned if you don’t its this.

I’ll not be back until Fenlon/Petrie/All of them have gone.

Why? What are you actually seeking to achieve by way of protest? Football supporting is entirely irrational. You go to games because you want to. If the cost and hassle and emotional turmoil it causes you outweighs the enjoyment you get, don’t go. End of. Hufftie-pufftie “I won’t be back” stuff is to me just posturing bollocks. If you want to go, but don’t, the only person you’re hurting is yourself, surely. The argument – “hit Hibs in the pocket, it’s the only way things will change” is insane when you think about it. That’s just making it harder for whoever, ultimately, does come in, and harder for the players on the park playing in front of dwindling crowds.
There will be many more stop going due to apathy and that is the big worry, and that is where the impact will be seen by the club. This is different to adopting some weird version of a principled stance.

Abuse

Anyone who watched James Collins on Wednesday and still thinks it’s a good idea to boo their own players because they make a mistake should really go on some basic emotional intelligence training. Giving utterly moronic, brainless pelters to him, Vine, McPake – whoever – can, under no circumstances short of deliberately dribbling past their own defenders to slot one past Williams be justified. Ever.

Social Media

There’s a difference between a relatively innocuous post by a player and a torrent of personal abuse directed towards them. People need to seriously take a perspective check on what is acceptable behaviour. Players shouldn’t bite, of course, but the fact that they are paid as footballers doesn’t mean they automatically must also accept the type of pathetic guff that is directed at them.

“The worst Hibs team/performance/no.9/manager etc ever”

I suspect if you look back over Hibs net over the years there will be posts of this nature after every defeat. People who post these types of comments are either eleven years old or have some serious memory deficiency.

Football Men

Given that Petrie has been immersed in the professional game for well over a decade, I think the accusation of him not being a football man is facile. He may not have been a player, but then neither was Arsene Wenger. Being a “football man” doesn’t make you good at being an administrator or manager or chief exec. Look at Willie Miller, Gordon Smith or Jim Duffy.

Being a Hibby.

I know we’re all fans for different reasons, and have different levels of passion, commitment and interest. The level of interest, passion etc will vary season to season as life changes and the team changes. The one thing that is – certainly for the vast majority – is that once a Hibby, always a Hibby. The divide into “happy-clapper” or “doom-and-gloomer” is false – everyone has their own take, and that is fine. However, I do genuinely believe that as a whole, we have one serious chip on our shoulder. I’m fortunate that I’ve been to around 50 grounds in England as neutral, and I’ve not come across a support like ours, ever. When we’re good, we are genuinely up there with the very, very best – SOL at the LC Final, the last 20 at Hampden last year, and the frankly remarkable tenacity for crowds to keep going through MIxu, Hughes, Calderwood and Fenlon. But when we’re bad, it is pretty vitriolic. There are mitigating circumstances, sure, but I am convinced that a sizeable minority of the crowd go because they actually like being miserable. All you have to do is come on to .net after a defeat and the same names and posters who are conspicuously absent after a decent performance or a win are on with barely undisguised glee. It’s just weird.

I’m not going to comment on Petrie or Fenlon particularly, as they are, whatever anyone thinks, just passing through. That said, I think Fenlons position is now untenable and Farmer, probably, needs to think that the strategic management of the club needs to be refreshed.

Overall, as I put on another thread, the danger for Hibs is that the tipping point has been reached for fans where they just don’t enjoy it anymore. When they’r elost. They’re lost. I hope it doesn’t come to this for the fans on this board who are the real reason for the club to exist and its lifeblood. What doesn’t help us at all when we are at a bad place is the unthinking, unreasoned and monumentally short-term knee jerk reactions we are all prone too.

Good well thought post. I'll respond to your headings.

Why the silence?

Can see your points but disagree that the board would have got greif if they had come out and sacked PF yesterday or even today. Most folk would accept that it was all they could really do or say. If the board weren't going to sack Fenlon then yes agree, no point in them saying anything.

I’ll not be back until Fenlon/Petrie/All of them have gone.

Some folk will see it through. some will last a month, a week and some will say it and be there on Sunday. No getting away from the fact we have haemorrhaged fans in the last 3/4 years and it isn't all down to the recession. If you don't listen to your customers or follow market trends then your business suffers and sometimes doesn't survive.

Abuse

Abuse of players is wrong during a game. Abuse on a fans site is fine - as long it is based on opinions of their performance as a footballer. if players can't take it then they need to grow a pair.

Social Media

Personal abuse of players directed right at them is wrong anywhere, social media, on here, in the street

“The worst Hibs team/performance/no.9/manager etc ever”

Just part of being a fan and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Football Men

Petrie is a football fan I am sure but seems to have lost it completely when running the football side of the business. Overall he keeps the wolf from the door financially but he has presided over an under achieiving club for about 6 years now.

Being a Hibby.

Don't think being a Hibby is different to being a fan of any other club. We all want our teams to do well and will celebrate when we are. We'll also moan and groan when we're not. It is the same for fans of Peterheid and Plymouth and every where else inbetween.

[TrinityHibs]

I honestly don't think it is revisionism. I'm not changing anything, I'm not lessening the impact the result had (certainly on me - I was and am gutted, more so than the final as it happens), but it doesn't stop me thinking about it in what I hope is a rational manner.

I don't think I'm particularly throwing insults at individuals. I'm suggesting some of the behaviours are moronic, and even if I am throwing insults, it's a common-interest, anonymous message board. I'm not directly and publicly saying "Vine/McPake/whoever you're a total c*** and you should f*** off". I am absolutely trying to take a bit of moral high ground, as I think that's where we should be. I'm glad you agree about the twitter rubbish. I don't think it's hypocritical to condemn such an action.

.net, in my opinion, has given a short term reaction. In fairness that's what it is there for to an extent - to allow people to vent. In my opinion, when I've looked through, a lot of it is knee-jerk in that it doesnt do any benefot to anyone, or is just unthinking stupidity. you may disagree, and that's fine, but if you read the comments on, for example Vine, they are pointless, witless and definitely not Hibs Class. What do people get out of it? Do they think it'll make him a better player?

As for the board, I said I think they need to address the situation. I don't agree that the long term best interests of the club are best served by a boycott, and the only individuals who are hurt are those who want to go and choose not to! That's just beyond my comprehension. It's not principled, at the end of the day it's a football club playing football games, and you're just denying yourself a thing that gives you (in theory at least) pleasure.

If you choose to feel patronised or insulted by the post that, I would suggest, is your problem, and to an extent is in my opinion evidence of more knee-jerking. I do think as noted above that to choose not to go (if you are able to) for any reason other than you simply don't enjoy it any more is unthinking and unreasoning. It may make a difference - I don't know - and I may be wrong, Petrie may look and say "oh, time to get rid", but in the meantime all that is happening is that you are reducing the ability for the club to compete in the long term. Plenty people have said "we're underachieving". We certainly will with crowds of say 6000.

Fenlon will go. It's inevitable. As I said in the OP, the only thing that clubs are, really, is their supporters. Its bizarre, to me, that many are choosing not to support.

Two excellent posts TC. It sums up where I am with Hibs. I am a season ticket holder and will be going to the next home match because I support my club.

[HappyHibby93]

After a couple of days of reflection and miring myself in the misery of the .net board, and with apologies for the longi-ish post, there are a few things that are repeating themes that I think are worth considering after the initial reaction to the defeat. In no particular order:

“Why the silence”

Similar I think to why referees don’t speak after games. Whatever is said would just fuel more ire, speculation and fury.

“We’re sorry for letting everyone down” – More words! We want action

“Fenlon is staying” – Incompetent appointment in the first place! Weak leadership” incompetence!

“Fenlon is going” – You should go to, the problem is deeper than him. Incompetence!

I’m not defending the board here. But if ever there’s a case of damned if you do damned if you don’t its this.

I’ll not be back until Fenlon/Petrie/All of them have gone.

Why? What are you actually seeking to achieve by way of protest? Football supporting is entirely irrational. You go to games because you want to. If the cost and hassle and emotional turmoil it causes you outweighs the enjoyment you get, don’t go. End of. Hufftie-pufftie “I won’t be back” stuff is to me just posturing bollocks. If you want to go, but don’t, the only person you’re hurting is yourself, surely. The argument – “hit Hibs in the pocket, it’s the only way things will change” is insane when you think about it. That’s just making it harder for whoever, ultimately, does come in, and harder for the players on the park playing in front of dwindling crowds.
There will be many more stop going due to apathy and that is the big worry, and that is where the impact will be seen by the club. This is different to adopting some weird version of a principled stance.

Abuse

Anyone who watched James Collins on Wednesday and still thinks it’s a good idea to boo their own players because they make a mistake should really go on some basic emotional intelligence training. Giving utterly moronic, brainless pelters to him, Vine, McPake – whoever – can, under no circumstances short of deliberately dribbling past their own defenders to slot one past Williams be justified. Ever.

Social Media

There’s a difference between a relatively innocuous post by a player and a torrent of personal abuse directed towards them. People need to seriously take a perspective check on what is acceptable behaviour. Players shouldn’t bite, of course, but the fact that they are paid as footballers doesn’t mean they automatically must also accept the type of pathetic guff that is directed at them.

“The worst Hibs team/performance/no.9/manager etc ever”

I suspect if you look back over Hibs net over the years there will be posts of this nature after every defeat. People who post these types of comments are either eleven years old or have some serious memory deficiency.

Football Men

Given that Petrie has been immersed in the professional game for well over a decade, I think the accusation of him not being a football man is facile. He may not have been a player, but then neither was Arsene Wenger. Being a “football man” doesn’t make you good at being an administrator or manager or chief exec. Look at Willie Miller, Gordon Smith or Jim Duffy.

Being a Hibby.

I know we’re all fans for different reasons, and have different levels of passion, commitment and interest. The level of interest, passion etc will vary season to season as life changes and the team changes. The one thing that is – certainly for the vast majority – is that once a Hibby, always a Hibby. The divide into “happy-clapper” or “doom-and-gloomer” is false – everyone has their own take, and that is fine. However, I do genuinely believe that as a whole, we have one serious chip on our shoulder. I’m fortunate that I’ve been to around 50 grounds in England as neutral, and I’ve not come across a support like ours, ever. When we’re good, we are genuinely up there with the very, very best – SOL at the LC Final, the last 20 at Hampden last year, and the frankly remarkable tenacity for crowds to keep going through MIxu, Hughes, Calderwood and Fenlon. But when we’re bad, it is pretty vitriolic. There are mitigating circumstances, sure, but I am convinced that a sizeable minority of the crowd go because they actually like being miserable. All you have to do is come on to .net after a defeat and the same names and posters who are conspicuously absent after a decent performance or a win are on with barely undisguised glee. It’s just weird.

I’m not going to comment on Petrie or Fenlon particularly, as they are, whatever anyone thinks, just passing through. That said, I think Fenlons position is now untenable and Farmer, probably, needs to think that the strategic management of the club needs to be refreshed.

Overall, as I put on another thread, the danger for Hibs is that the tipping point has been reached for fans where they just don’t enjoy it anymore. When they’r elost. They’re lost. I hope it doesn’t come to this for the fans on this board who are the real reason for the club to exist and its lifeblood. What doesn’t help us at all when we are at a bad place is the unthinking, unreasoned and monumentally short-term knee jerk reactions we are all prone too.


Well said sir!! Finally someone has posted something that properly makes sense!!!!

[jakeshibs]

After a couple of days of reflection and miring myself in the misery of the .net board, and with apologies for the longi-ish post, there are a few things that are repeating themes that I think are worth considering after the initial reaction to the defeat. In no particular order:

“Why the silence”

Similar I think to why referees don’t speak after games. Whatever is said would just fuel more ire, speculation and fury.

“We’re sorry for letting everyone down” – More words! We want action

“Fenlon is staying” – Incompetent appointment in the first place! Weak leadership” incompetence!

“Fenlon is going” – You should go to, the problem is deeper than him. Incompetence!

I’m not defending the board here. But if ever there’s a case of damned if you do damned if you don’t its this.

I’ll not be back until Fenlon/Petrie/All of them have gone.

Why? What are you actually seeking to achieve by way of protest? Football supporting is entirely irrational. You go to games because you want to. If the cost and hassle and emotional turmoil it causes you outweighs the enjoyment you get, don’t go. End of. Hufftie-pufftie “I won’t be back” stuff is to me just posturing bollocks. If you want to go, but don’t, the only person you’re hurting is yourself, surely. The argument – “hit Hibs in the pocket, it’s the only way things will change” is insane when you think about it. That’s just making it harder for whoever, ultimately, does come in, and harder for the players on the park playing in front of dwindling crowds.
There will be many more stop going due to apathy and that is the big worry, and that is where the impact will be seen by the club. This is different to adopting some weird version of a principled stance.

Abuse

Anyone who watched James Collins on Wednesday and still thinks it’s a good idea to boo their own players because they make a mistake should really go on some basic emotional intelligence training. Giving utterly moronic, brainless pelters to him, Vine, McPake – whoever – can, under no circumstances short of deliberately dribbling past their own defenders to slot one past Williams be justified. Ever.

Social Media

There’s a difference between a relatively innocuous post by a player and a torrent of personal abuse directed towards them. People need to seriously take a perspective check on what is acceptable behaviour. Players shouldn’t bite, of course, but the fact that they are paid as footballers doesn’t mean they automatically must also accept the type of pathetic guff that is directed at them.

“The worst Hibs team/performance/no.9/manager etc ever”

I suspect if you look back over Hibs net over the years there will be posts of this nature after every defeat. People who post these types of comments are either eleven years old or have some serious memory deficiency.

Football Men

Given that Petrie has been immersed in the professional game for well over a decade, I think the accusation of him not being a football man is facile. He may not have been a player, but then neither was Arsene Wenger. Being a “football man” doesn’t make you good at being an administrator or manager or chief exec. Look at Willie Miller, Gordon Smith or Jim Duffy.

Being a Hibby.

I know we’re all fans for different reasons, and have different levels of passion, commitment and interest. The level of interest, passion etc will vary season to season as life changes and the team changes. The one thing that is – certainly for the vast majority – is that once a Hibby, always a Hibby. The divide into “happy-clapper” or “doom-and-gloomer” is false – everyone has their own take, and that is fine. However, I do genuinely believe that as a whole, we have one serious chip on our shoulder. I’m fortunate that I’ve been to around 50 grounds in England as neutral, and I’ve not come across a support like ours, ever. When we’re good, we are genuinely up there with the very, very best – SOL at the LC Final, the last 20 at Hampden last year, and the frankly remarkable tenacity for crowds to keep going through MIxu, Hughes, Calderwood and Fenlon. But when we’re bad, it is pretty vitriolic. There are mitigating circumstances, sure, but I am convinced that a sizeable minority of the crowd go because they actually like being miserable. All you have to do is come on to .net after a defeat and the same names and posters who are conspicuously absent after a decent performance or a win are on with barely undisguised glee. It’s just weird.

I’m not going to comment on Petrie or Fenlon particularly, as they are, whatever anyone thinks, just passing through. That said, I think Fenlons position is now untenable and Farmer, probably, needs to think that the strategic management of the club needs to be refreshed.

Overall, as I put on another thread, the danger for Hibs is that the tipping point has been reached for fans where they just don’t enjoy it anymore. When they’r elost. They’re lost. I hope it doesn’t come to this for the fans on this board who are the real reason for the club to exist and its lifeblood. What doesn’t help us at all when we are at a bad place is the unthinking, unreasoned and monumentally short-term knee jerk reactions we are all prone too.

fantastic post,:top marks well said!!!

[Twa Cairpets]

Being a Hibby.

Don't think being a Hibby is different to being a fan of any other club. We all want our teams to do well and will celebrate when we are. We'll also moan and groan when we're not. It is the same for fans of Peterheid and Plymouth and every where else inbetween.

Thanks for the response - all fair, but thought I'd pick up on the last point.

I've been fortunate over the past 15-20 years or so to be in a job that allows me to take in games across the UK and occasionally abroad. I try to go and see as many different teams as I can from the Premier down to the conference. The only other club in my experience I think that has come close to Hibs fans in slating their own team was Sheffield Wednesday, and perhaps there are parallels there with us. I was at a Huddersfield game last year when they were deep in relegation trouble and hadn't won on weeks, were playing poorly and there fans were completely behind them from the off.

I realise this is a very straw poll analysis and I'm much more familiar with and attuned to the nuances of being a Hibby, but I genuinely cant think, in literally hundreds of games, when I've come across players being howled at in fury for missing a goal-scoring chance. Plenty of "how the f*** did he miss that" but not much personal vitriol.

[Weststandwanab]

Two excellent posts TC. It sums up where I am with Hibs. I am a season ticket holder and will be going to the next home match because I support my club.
Me too.

[One Day Soon]

I honestly don't think it is revisionism. I'm not changing anything, I'm not lessening the impact the result had (certainly on me - I was and am gutted, more so than the final as it happens), but it doesn't stop me thinking about it in what I hope is a rational manner.

I don't think I'm particularly throwing insults at individuals. I'm suggesting some of the behaviours are moronic, and even if I am throwing insults, it's a common-interest, anonymous message board. I'm not directly and publicly saying "Vine/McPake/whoever you're a total c*** and you should f*** off". I am absolutely trying to take a bit of moral high ground, as I think that's where we should be. I'm glad you agree about the twitter rubbish. I don't think it's hypocritical to condemn such an action.

.net, in my opinion, has given a short term reaction. In fairness that's what it is there for to an extent - to allow people to vent. In my opinion, when I've looked through, a lot of it is knee-jerk in that it doesnt do any benefot to anyone, or is just unthinking stupidity. you may disagree, and that's fine, but if you read the comments on, for example Vine, they are pointless, witless and definitely not Hibs Class. What do people get out of it? Do they think it'll make him a better player?

As for the board, I said I think they need to address the situation. I don't agree that the long term best interests of the club are best served by a boycott, and the only individuals who are hurt are those who want to go and choose not to! That's just beyond my comprehension. It's not principled, at the end of the day it's a football club playing football games, and you're just denying yourself a thing that gives you (in theory at least) pleasure.

If you choose to feel patronised or insulted by the post that, I would suggest, is your problem, and to an extent is in my opinion evidence of more knee-jerking. I do think as noted above that to choose not to go (if you are able to) for any reason other than you simply don't enjoy it any more is unthinking and unreasoning. It may make a difference - I don't know - and I may be wrong, Petrie may look and say "oh, time to get rid", but in the meantime all that is happening is that you are reducing the ability for the club to compete in the long term. Plenty people have said "we're underachieving". We certainly will with crowds of say 6000.

Fenlon will go. It's inevitable. As I said in the OP, the only thing that clubs are, really, is their supporters. Its bizarre, to me, that many are choosing not to support.


I could not disagree with you more fundamentally. I will respond only to the highlighted section because the rest I think is pretty peripheral and speaks for itself.

I think it is crassly and patronisingly offensive to suggest that supporters who decide consciously and deliberately to withdraw their attendance in order to try to effect change are unthinking or unreasoning. Your sex analogy is bizarre. A more accurate one would be where trade union members withdraw their labour in dispute with management. We are being treated like fools and we only have one bargaining chip at our hands which is us: our money, our support and our voices.

You talk (rightly in my view) about the fear that supporters will drift away forever on a cloud of indifference and then appear to conclude that our best course of action is to line up with our wallets at the stadium gates like obedient sheep while Mr Petrie decides what is best for us. We have adopted that tactic for some years now and it hasn't worked has it? As Einstein observed - and you of all people should appreciate this - the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Why should we passively continue on this path? I'd rather see angry and motivated supporters withdrawing their attendance en masse as a deliberate and organised act now in order to force change at the club while they still care about it, than see a slow bleeding away from indifference which isn't organised but which is permanent and irreversible as people just stop caring.

And I say all this as a pretty dyed in the wool happy clapper. Until the Malmo game I was still prepared to give Fenlon a chance. Where we are at now though is a different and worse place altogether than where we have been previuosly. Why? Well aside from the cup final humiliations, and the Malmo humiliation, and the humiliation of being beaten twice by kids wearing Hearts jerseys, and the humiliation of a club which should be a top three contender this season failing abjectly, and the humiliation of a club that fobs its fans off with no answers or with vague assurances that any tin-pot dictatorship would be proud of, apart from all of that there's the actual football.

The way we are playing now, the way we have played for the last two years - and before that - is what is really ripping the soul out of this club and the spirit out of its supporters. It is slow, disjointed, not entertaining, negative, lacking in ambition and utterly, utterly without belief. It does not I think get a lot more basic than not having pace, not having a midfield playmaker, being serially unable to take throw-ins and retain posession, not having width, not having settled recognised full backs and clearly, clearly, clearly having a black hole in place of confidence, strength and determination.

Why should the custodians of the club (that's us, the fans) be subjected to this and then believe that our best hope is to shut up and do what we are told? This is exactly the stuff that we have ripped Hearts fans for in relation to Romanov for years. Everyone knows that Fenlon is done. He can either go at the end of his contract and so waste months of time when a new manager could be trying to fix things or he could get out of the way now and let a new manager try to restore some of the broken trust with the fans. Petrie knows this, we all do. We also know that Petrie is tough and focussed. He keeps his eye firmly on the financial ball which is why the only chance of effecting change we have is to show him we are serious about non-attendance. The financial effect of that is the one thing which could cause him to move on Fenlon.

In my view the ones who stop attending now to try and force the issue are the ones most loyal to the future of the club. They are putting the collective good before their own self-interest. That's not unthinking its rational.

[TrinityHibs]

I could not disagree with you more fundamentally. I will respond only to the highlighted section because the rest I think is pretty peripheral and speaks for itself.

I think it is crassly and patronisingly offensive to suggest that supporters who decide consciously and deliberately to withdraw their attendance in order to try to effect change are unthinking or unreasoning. Your sex analogy is bizarre. A more accurate one would be where trade union members withdraw their labour in dispute with management. We are being treated like fools and we only have one bargaining chip at our hands which is us: our money, our support and our voices.

You talk (rightly in my view) about the fear that supporters will drift away forever on a cloud of indifference and then appear to conclude that our best course of action is to line up with our wallets at the stadium gates like obedient sheep while Mr Petrie decides what is best for us. We have adopted that tactic for some years now and it hasn't worked has it? As Einstein observed - and you of all people should appreciate this - the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Why should we passively continue on this path? I'd rather see angry and motivated supporters withdrawing their attendance en masse as a deliberate and organised act now in order to force change at the club while they still care about it, than see a slow bleeding away from indifference which isn't organised but which is permanent and irreversible as people just stop caring.

And I say all this as a pretty dyed in the wool happy clapper. Until the Malmo game I was still prepared to give Fenlon a chance. Where we are at now though is a different and worse place altogether than where we have been previuosly. Why? Well aside from the cup final humiliations, and the Malmo humiliation, and the humiliation of being beaten twice by kids wearing Hearts jerseys, and the humiliation of a club which should be a top three contender this season failing abjectly, and the humiliation of a club that fobs its fans off with no answers or with vague assurances that any tin-pot dictatorship would be proud of, apart from all of that there's the actual football.

The way we are playing now, the way we have played for the last two years - and before that - is what is really ripping the soul out of this club and the spirit out of its supporters. It is slow, disjointed, not entertaining, negative, lacking in ambition and utterly, utterly without belief. It does not I think get a lot more basic than not having pace, not having a midfield playmaker, being serially unable to take throw-ins and retain posession, not having width, not having settled recognised full backs and clearly, clearly, clearly having a black hole in place of confidence, strength and determination.

Why should the custodians of the club (that's us, the fans) be subjected to this and then believe that our best hope is to shut up and do what we are told? This is exactly the stuff that we have ripped Hearts fans for in relation to Romanov for years. Everyone knows that Fenlon is done. He can either go at the end of his contract and so waste months of time when a new manager could be trying to fix things or he could get out of the way now and let a new manager try to restore some of the broken trust with the fans. Petrie knows this, we all do. We also know that Petrie is tough and focussed. He keeps his eye firmly on the financial ball which is why the only chance of effecting change we have is to show him we are serious about non-attendance. The financial effect of that is the one thing which could cause him to move on Fenlon.

In my view the ones who stop attending now to try and force the issue are the ones most loyal to the future of the club. They are putting the collective good before their own self-interest. That's not unthinking its rational.

That's not rational that's just pish. Or are you taking a hunnish approach and saying that the supporters who turn up are more faithful. Lets just chuck a flag debate in and really plumb the depths. All academic now or are the super loyalists going to get the pitchforks out for Rod, Lewis, Vine or Tam McCourt?

[One Day Soon]

That's not rational that's just pish. Or are you taking a hunnish approach and saying that the supporters who turn up are more faithful. Lets just chuck a flag debate in and really plumb the depths. All academic now or are the super loyalists going to get the pitchforks out for Rod, Lewis, Vine or Tam McCourt?

I'll file your reply under incoherent babbling, though I think that may be flattering it.

[Twa Cairpets]

I could not disagree with you more fundamentally. I will respond only to the highlighted section because the rest I think is pretty peripheral and speaks for itself.

I think it is crassly and patronisingly offensive to suggest that supporters who decide consciously and deliberately to withdraw their attendance in order to try to effect change are unthinking or unreasoning. Your sex analogy is bizarre. A more accurate one would be where trade union members withdraw their labour in dispute with management. We are being treated like fools and we only have one bargaining chip at our hands which is us: our money, our support and our voices.

You talk (rightly in my view) about the fear that supporters will drift away forever on a cloud of indifference and then appear to conclude that our best course of action is to line up with our wallets at the stadium gates like obedient sheep while Mr Petrie decides what is best for us. We have adopted that tactic for some years now and it hasn't worked has it? As Einstein observed - and you of all people should appreciate this - the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Why should we passively continue on this path? I'd rather see angry and motivated supporters withdrawing their attendance en masse as a deliberate and organised act now in order to force change at the club while they still care about it, than see a slow bleeding away from indifference which isn't organised but which is permanent and irreversible as people just stop caring.

And I say all this as a pretty dyed in the wool happy clapper. Until the Malmo game I was still prepared to give Fenlon a chance. Where we are at now though is a different and worse place altogether than where we have been previuosly. Why? Well aside from the cup final humiliations, and the Malmo humiliation, and the humiliation of being beaten twice by kids wearing Hearts jerseys, and the humiliation of a club which should be a top three contender this season failing abjectly, and the humiliation of a club that fobs its fans off with no answers or with vague assurances that any tin-pot dictatorship would be proud of, apart from all of that there's the actual football.

The way we are playing now, the way we have played for the last two years - and before that - is what is really ripping the soul out of this club and the spirit out of its supporters. It is slow, disjointed, not entertaining, negative, lacking in ambition and utterly, utterly without belief. It does not I think get a lot more basic than not having pace, not having a midfield playmaker, being serially unable to take throw-ins and retain posession, not having width, not having settled recognised full backs and clearly, clearly, clearly having a black hole in place of confidence, strength and determination.

Why should the custodians of the club (that's us, the fans) be subjected to this and then believe that our best hope is to shut up and do what we are told? This is exactly the stuff that we have ripped Hearts fans for in relation to Romanov for years. Everyone knows that Fenlon is done. He can either go at the end of his contract and so waste months of time when a new manager could be trying to fix things or he could get out of the way now and let a new manager try to restore some of the broken trust with the fans. Petrie knows this, we all do. We also know that Petrie is tough and focussed. He keeps his eye firmly on the financial ball which is why the only chance of effecting change we have is to show him we are serious about non-attendance. The financial effect of that is the one thing which could cause him to move on Fenlon.

In my view the ones who stop attending now to try and force the issue are the ones most loyal to the future of the club. They are putting the collective good before their own self-interest. That's not unthinking its rational.

I've not said that for one second.

i think there's plenty we can do that is more effective without punishing ourselves by denying ourselves the opportunity to do something we in theory enjoy. There was game in Sweden (AIK v Djurgaarden I think) where the fans of both teams were totally silent for 12 minutes I think them went mental. The idea was - what is the game without fans. That is classy.

Anyhoo, Fenlons gone now - it was inevitable. I saw a picture on Twitter of some guy who cut up his ST. Bet he feels a bit of dick. I agree with the bit about why the soul was being ripped out of the club by the way. Its why I've banged on about drift through apathy. I just want to enjoy my football, play with a bit of excitement, and feel a bit of hope again.

[One Day Soon]

I've not said that for one second.

i think there's plenty we can do that is more effective without punishing ourselves by denying ourselves the opportunity to do something we in theory enjoy. There was game in Sweden (AIK v Djurgaarden I think) where the fans of both teams were totally silent for 12 minutes I think them went mental. The idea was - what is the game without fans. That is classy.

Anyhoo, Fenlons gone now - it was inevitable. I saw a picture on Twitter of some guy who cut up his ST. Bet he feels a bit of dick. I agree with the bit about why the soul was being ripped out of the club by the way. Its why I've banged on about drift through apathy. I just want to enjoy my football, play with a bit of excitement, and feel a bit of hope again.


As on many other subjects we will have to agree to differ. Thankfully that's easy to do now that we are both looking at the same blank sheet of paper.

What you describe above would be therapeutic and entertaining. It would, however, leave Rod completely unmoved. First rule of warfare, know where the real weaknesses are.

[Twa Cairpets]

As on many other subjects we will have to agree to differ. Thankfully that's easy to do now that we are both looking at the same blank sheet of paper.

What you describe above would be therapeutic and entertaining. It would, however, leave Rod completely unmoved. First rule of warfare, know where the real weaknesses are.

No probs. Here's a link. There's a better link somewhere too but you'll get the idea.

Mental

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlfK3yMiPVY

[One Day Soon]

No probs. Here's a link. There's a better link somewhere too but you'll get the idea.

Mental

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlfK3yMiPVY

That's pretty entertaining. I'm just trying to imagine some of our basket cases attempting to observe the ten minute silence. It would be a bit like that scene in Men in Black where the alien cockroach is trying not to erupt out of the human body it is inhabiting.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was wondering that as well. I'm struggling to get a coherent point of view from the OP.

My suspicion is that he means "Hibs have always been sh*te to average and we should just be real fans and let it all blow over".

I hope I'm wrong.

He didnae say that, that's been my line.

:wink:

[TrinityHibs]

I'll file your reply under incoherent babbling, though I think that may be flattering it.

Very good. It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand where one of the less loyal supporters are coming from but I"ll keep watching the team and not abuse players and you can support the loyal uber fans on their next mission.:na na: