Pat Fenlon - What would it take to keep him?

[TheFamous1875]

I was just thinking off the back of our shroud defensive display against Celtic in which Pat set us up to be hard to beat and it paid off. Personally, I have nothing but full credit to Pat Fenlon for Saturdays performance against a better team where we battled and didn't let them play their game. it's just what we have to do just now, against them, unfortunately. Every team in the Premiership should follow our example when it comes to playing Celtic.
It got me thinking about Pat, and his last season of his contract. The majority of us are not happy with the way we have been playing football under Fenlon (Celtic being the only notable exception where it is appropriate to play that type of game IMO), and would rather see someone who subscribes to the Hibernian philosophy of fast-paced, creative attacking football at the helm.

In regards to this years League Cup, we have a very good chance of getting our hands on the trophy, with the main threat already eliminated, it could be a shout, especially given Pat's pedigree when it comes to tournaments.

My question is this - if we were to win a trophy this season under Pat, would you feel obliged to give him more time, despite the fact that a lot of us have already made our minds up about him?

For me personally, I think a trophy would more than merit him staying on and really getting to instil his philosophies and beliefs in our club, he would earn the right to drive on the club, as it would show that his approach can pay off. However, I'm just not sure that I believe in him enough when it comes to managing this club, or buy into his policies. I'm far from convinced that he knows when to attack, and when to play football, and when to dig deep( or make a sub!). His approach to football has left me wanting for more.

This is not to say that he can't improve the more control he has over the proceedings our club, but so far, he's not shown enough potential for me to think this is achievable (we have very rarely attacked under him, I can't remember many counter attacks with speed and energy during his tenure, for example.)

I like his attitude to working hard together as a team, his recruitment policy has mostly been great, if I'm honest, and he's been bringing through youth and getting rid if the billybigboots culture that was at our club for many years, but tactically, when it comes to what happens on the park, I'm not convinced.

So there's good and bad, but I would like to see other people's opinions on the matter.

Would a cup win be enough to keep him?

[Andy74]

I was just thinking off the back of our shroud defensive display against Celtic in which Pat set us up to be hard to beat and it paid off. Personally, I have nothing but full credit to Pat Fenlon for Saturdays performance against a better team where we battled and didn't let them play their game. it's just what we have to do just now, against them, unfortunately. Every team in the Premiership should follow our example when it comes to playing Celtic.
It got me thinking about Pat, and his last season of his contract. The majority of us are not happy with the way we have been playing football under Fenlon (Celtic being the only notable exception where it is appropriate to play that type of game IMO), and would rather see someone who subscribes to the Hibernian philosophy of fast-paced, creative attacking football at the helm.

In regards to this years League Cup, we have a very good chance of getting our hands on the trophy, with the main threat already eliminated, it could be a shout, especially given Pat's pedigree when it comes to tournaments.

My question is this - if we were to win a trophy this season under Pat, would you feel obliged to give him more time, despite the fact that a lot of us have already made our minds up about him?

For me personally, I think a trophy would more than merit him staying on and really getting to instil his philosophies and beliefs in our club, he would earn the right to drive on the club, as it would show that his approach can pay off. However, I'm just not sure that I believe in him enough when it comes to managing this club, or buy into his policies. I'm far from convinced that he knows when to attack, and when to play football, and when to dig deep( or make a sub!). His approach to football has left me wanting for more.

This is not to say that he can't improve the more control he has over the proceedings our club, but so far, he's not shown enough potential for me to think this is achievable (we have very rarely attacked under him, I can't remember many counter attacks with speed and energy during his tenure, for example.)

I like his attitude to working hard together as a team, his recruitment policy has mostly been great, if I'm honest, and he's been bringing through youth and getting rid if the billybigboots culture that was at our club for many years, but tactically, when it comes to what happens on the park, I'm not convinced.

So there's good and bad, but I would like to see other people's opinions on the matter.

Would a cup win be enough to keep him?

I'm so glad we've finally got a thread about this.

Are we the only set of fans who would be debating the manager's position in these circumstances?

A few weeks ago maybe if you didn't see things changing, but now?

[Lucius Apuleius]

I was just thinking off the back of our shroud defensive display against Celtic in which Pat set us up to be hard to beat and it paid off. Personally, I have nothing but full credit to Pat Fenlon for Saturdays performance against a better team where we battled and didn't let them play their game. it's just what we have to do just now, against them, unfortunately. Every team in the Premiership should follow our example when it comes to playing Celtic.
It got me thinking about Pat, and his last season of his contract. The majority of us are not happy with the way we have been playing football under Fenlon (Celtic being the only notable exception where it is appropriate to play that type of game IMO), and would rather see someone who subscribes to the Hibernian philosophy of fast-paced, creative attacking football at the helm.

In regards to this years League Cup, we have a very good chance of getting our hands on the trophy, with the main threat already eliminated, it could be a shout, especially given Pat's pedigree when it comes to tournaments.

My question is this - if we were to win a trophy this season under Pat, would you feel obliged to give him more time, despite the fact that a lot of us have already made our minds up about him?

For me personally, I think a trophy would more than merit him staying on and really getting to instil his philosophies and beliefs in our club, he would earn the right to drive on the club, as it would show that his approach can pay off. However, I'm just not sure that I believe in him enough when it comes to managing this club, or buy into his policies. I'm far from convinced that he knows when to attack, and when to play football, and when to dig deep( or make a sub!). His approach to football has left me wanting for more.

This is not to say that he can't improve the more control he has over the proceedings our club, but so far, he's not shown enough potential for me to think this is achievable (we have very rarely attacked under him, I can't remember many counter attacks with speed and energy during his tenure, for example.)

I like his attitude to working hard together as a team, his recruitment policy has mostly been great, if I'm honest, and he's been bringing through youth and getting rid if the billybigboots culture that was at our club for many years, but tactically, when it comes to what happens on the park, I'm not convinced.

So there's good and bad, but I would like to see other people's opinions on the matter.

Would a cup win be enough to keep him?

He will be the death of us going by your opening sentence. :-)

[Wheat Hound]

I agree to an extent with the OP but bottom line is if we don't beat Hertz in the cup the knives will be out for Pat again. I have definitely seen signs of improvement and progression in the last month or so though.

[Keith_M]

I wish people would stop talking about winning a trophy. All I want for now is to beat Hearts in the next round. If and when that happens, then we should discuss further rounds.

IMHO, Pat will leave Hibs at the end of this season. I think he's taken a lot of stick here and may think the best thing to do would be to move on.

[andy1875]

Win the League Cup.

Win the Scottish Cup.

Finish 2nd in the league.

Anything other than all of the above and I'd bin him.

[PeeJay]

"What would it take to keep him" ... :crazy:???? As far as I'm concerned he should be emptied as soon as possible. He has shown nothing to convince me that he can produce a team that we can be proud of, one that will challenge for 2nd spot in the SPFL and win trophies. I don't expect him to do any of that, to be honest. Having said that - if he won a trophy for the club - and I wouldn't want him here to achieve it by default, the other team would have to turn up - then I would feel that he had deserved the chance to remain a bit longer in the manager's seat. We don't win trophies often enough to chase anyone who succeeds in doing so out the door just after having done so. Still, it's not going to happen. The more interesting question, I feel is: what will it take to get rid of him? Getting beat 0-7 at home to some Swedish outfit, or losing 1-5 to Hearts in a cup final is not enough apparently .... how bad does it have to get?

[Pretty Boy]

We have looked better the last few weeks, Partick and ICT excepted.

If we continue to battle as we have done and show continued improvement, as well as looking to start introducing elements that are easier on the eye, then i'd be perfectly ok with Fenlon getting a new contract.

If we collapse for 3/4 months again as we did last year then he probably hasn't done enough. The new contract is in the balance imo.

[147lothian]

Other managers will sit up and recognise that the way Pat set his team up against Celtic is what they have to do to get anything out of the game, it made me laugh to hear Lennons comments because he did exactly the same when they played the superstars of Barcalona and it worked then too

I would like to see the board showing some faith in Fenlon, and letting him bring in quality which isn't cheap, d'utd's board did it when they let McNamara sign goodwillie on 5.5k a week, our board should do the same, show faith in Fenlon, by letting him, buy, the rewards will be through the turnstyle, and also so faith in Fenlon by offering him a longer contract, that way we have stability, look at the topteams in England, they all got success by having stability at the top.

[LioNeilMessi]

Win the League Cup.

Win the Scottish Cup.

Finish 2nd in the league.

Anything other than all of the above and I'd bin him.

Following that logic you would bin him if he won the league.

Finish 2nd in the league: No More, No Less :greengrin

[hibeemikey21]

Win the League Cup.

Win the Scottish Cup.

Finish 2nd in the league.

Anything other than all of the above and I'd bin him.


So you would.....

I would snap your hand off for any of the above, let alone all 3.

Fed up with the sacking culture/managerial carousel at hibs. Pat's fine. Team has steadily improved (now that he has got his squad together) and we have reached 2 SC finals in the 2 seasons he has been here. Let's stick with him.

[Andy74]

"What would it take to keep him" ... :crazy:???? As far as I'm concerned he should be emptied as soon as possible. He has shown nothing to convince me that he can produce a team that we can be proud of, one that will challenge for 2nd spot in the SPFL and win trophies. I don't expect him to do any of that, to be honest. Having said that - if he won a trophy for the club - and I wouldn't want him here to achieve it by default, the other team would have to turn up - then I would feel that he had deserved the chance to remain a bit longer in the manager's seat. We don't win trophies often enough to chase anyone who succeeds in doing so out the door just after having done so. Still, it's not going to happen. The more interesting question, I feel is: what will it take to get rid of him? Getting beat 0-7 at home to some Swedish outfit, or losing 1-5 to Hearts in a cup final is not enough apparently .... how bad does it have to get?

Recent short to medium term form suggest we can very much challenge for 2nd place. Our averages over 9, 12, 15 games all bring a points tally that would get 2nd or 3rd.

Going out a bit longer over 19 games gets back down to tally that would have got 4th last year.

Over the last 38 games we'd be 6th.

We've been in two cup finals with him so suggest we are nearer challenging for cups than with most previous managers.

Are we giving Hearts the 5-1 fair and square now are we? And Fenlon was responsible for the state the club was in then? Should have been a miracle getting us there.

[andy1875]

So you would.....

I would snap your hand off for any of the above, let alone all 3.

Fed up with the sacking culture/managerial carousel at hibs. Pat's fine. Team has steadily improved (now that he has got his squad together) and we have reached 2 SC finals in the 2 seasons he has been here. Let's stick with him.

I was clearly at the wind up.

Fwiw if he were to take us to any of the cups or finish top 4 then I think that would be enough to see him given a new contract.

[DJ HIBBY]

Recent short to medium term form suggest we can very much challenge for 2nd place. Our averages over 9, 12, 15 games all bring a points tally that would get 2nd or 3rd.

Going out a bit longer over 19 games gets back down to tally that would have got 4th last year.

Over the last 38 games we'd be 6th.

We've been in two cup finals with him so suggest we are nearer challenging for cups than with most previous managers.

Are we giving Hearts the 5-1 fair and square now are we? And Fenlon was responsible for the state the club was in then? Should have been a miracle getting us there.


I know Andy you have backed Pat Fenlon to the hilt but can I ask you a serious question - would you say we are an enjoyable team to watch?

Would you also agree that you can win football matches playing a much better style of football?

In my opinion there are too many games like the Partick Thistle game where we have won but have played awful eye bleeding football.

[hibby rae]

So you would.....

I would snap your hand off for any of the above, let alone all 3.

Fed up with the sacking culture/managerial carousel at hibs. Pat's fine. Team has steadily improved (now that he has got his squad together) and we have reached 2 SC finals in the 2 seasons he has been here. Let's stick with him.


:agree:

[Jim44]

So you would.....

I would snap your hand off for any of the above, let alone all 3.

Fed up with the sacking culture/managerial carousel at hibs. Pat's fine. Team has steadily improved (now that he has got his squad together) and we have reached 2 SC finals in the 2 seasons he has been here. Let's stick with him.

I want a manager whose main aim is greater than making us a difficult team to beat. That approach is unlikely to see us near the top of the league by the end of the season, so, lifting the Scottish cup is the only certain result which would merit a new contract. Personally, I think he will be away at the end of the season.

[Onceinawhile]

We have looked better the last few weeks, Partick and ICT excepted.

If we continue to battle as we have done and show continued improvement, as well as looking to start introducing elements that are easier on the eye, then i'd be perfectly ok with Fenlon getting a new contract.

If we collapse for 3/4 months again as we did last year then he probably hasn't done enough. The new contract is in the balance imo.

I think this is pretty fair, I'd add the two provisos that should we win the league cup (still a long way away) then he should get at least a years extension. If we don't however and we are in the bottom six, I would bin him as soon as bottom six is confirmed.

[jacomo]

I'm so glad we've finally got a thread about this.

Are we the only set of fans who would be debating the manager's position in these circumstances?

A few weeks ago maybe if you didn't see things changing, but now?

I think you are being a tad harsh. Sentiment has definitely improved with recent results, which seems only fair.

It seems to be more or less the 'settled will' of the support that Pat will see out his contract. But the club can't really leave it until next summer to offer him a new deal if we want him to stay.

Personally, I'm undecided about that. It seems a reasonable topic for discussion to me.

[Andy74]

I know Andy you have backed Pat Fenlon to the hilt but can I ask you a serious question - would you say we are an enjoyable team to watch?

Would you also agree that you can win football matches playing a much better style of football?

In my opinion there are too many games like the Partick Thistle game where we have won but have played awful eye bleeding football.

Yeah we are sometimes. I think we lacked wide and creative players after Wotrherspoon and Cairney lost their form and welooked better when Harris was around.

We've also looked fine this year in quite a few of the games though I'm sure most of the more vocal members on here didn't see them.

The Partick game was pretty brutal but we are having a laugh if we think we will play well every week regardless of who is manager.

Yes you can win playing a more expansive style, you can also lose.

I think Fenlon has shown over his career he knows how to get the teams he has to win football matches.

I've watched Hibs now for over 30 yrs, most here will beat me on that front but my time so far tells me having a debtate about HOW we win games is mental. I'd love to win games with passing, fast football every week, it can't always happen though. I've seen Hibs teams keep trying to play that way and get nothing and we'd have given something then to have a bit more about us in terms of being hard to beat.

Take John Hughes - loved us to pass the ball, we didn't have another option, we started losing games and we wanted him gone.

Pat for me about gets the right balance and I think we will improve as an attacking team as we go on.

The thought of taking a risk on another manager now just in case he can get us attacking a bit more makes me quite nervous.

[Andy74]

I want a manager whose main aim is greater than making us a difficult team to beat. That approach is unlikely to see us near the top of the league by the end of the season, so, lifting the Scottish cup is the only certain result which would merit a new contract. Personally, I think he will be away at the end of the season.

Take the last 9 league games, that approach over the season would get us 63 points. Last 12, 66 points. Last 15, 66 points.

We've a bit to go to carry this on longer term but when you say unlikely - how do you get that?

Great stuff when we are going to ask a manager to do what none has done in 111 years to justify his job. What nonsense.

[--------]

I was just thinking off the back of our shroud defensive display against Celtic in which Pat set us up to be hard to beat and it paid off. Personally, I have nothing but full credit to Pat Fenlon for Saturdays performance against a better team where we battled and didn't let them play their game. it's just what we have to do just now, against them, unfortunately. Every team in the Premiership should follow our example when it comes to playing Celtic.
It got me thinking about Pat, and his last season of his contract. The majority of us are not happy with the way we have been playing football under Fenlon (Celtic being the only notable exception where it is appropriate to play that type of game IMO), and would rather see someone who subscribes to the Hibernian philosophy of fast-paced, creative attacking football at the helm.

In regards to this years League Cup, we have a very good chance of getting our hands on the trophy, with the main threat already eliminated, it could be a shout, especially given Pat's pedigree when it comes to tournaments.

My question is this - if we were to win a trophy this season under Pat, would you feel obliged to give him more time, despite the fact that a lot of us have already made our minds up about him?

For me personally, I think a trophy would more than merit him staying on and really getting to instil his philosophies and beliefs in our club, he would earn the right to drive on the club, as it would show that his approach can pay off. However, I'm just not sure that I believe in him enough when it comes to managing this club, or buy into his policies. I'm far from convinced that he knows when to attack, and when to play football, and when to dig deep( or make a sub!). His approach to football has left me wanting for more.

This is not to say that he can't improve the more control he has over the proceedings our club, but so far, he's not shown enough potential for me to think this is achievable (we have very rarely attacked under him, I can't remember many counter attacks with speed and energy during his tenure, for example.)

I like his attitude to working hard together as a team, his recruitment policy has mostly been great, if I'm honest, and he's been bringing through youth and getting rid if the billybigboots culture that was at our club for many years, but tactically, when it comes to what happens on the park, I'm not convinced.

So there's good and bad, but I would like to see other people's opinions on the matter.

Would a cup win be enough to keep him?


Quarter-finals and a game against our derby rivals doesn't translate into "a very good chance" to me.

I've no problems with folks being optimistic, but on these boards optimism of that sort tends to be followed up by the manager and team being flayed alive on the message boards if they don't go through.

Last time I looked, there were another 7 teams in the draw, and Hibs aren't obviously superior to most (any?) of them.

We've just drawn with the League leaders (very unlucky not to beat them) with the team showing plenty of guts and determination (an no little skill).

So let's all start picking away at the old sore of whether the manager should be allowed to get on with his job.

Cannae just enjoy the result, eh? :rolleyes:

[Jim44]

Nonsense to you maybe but not to me. I thought this was a question of opinion. In my opinion, his approach to the game will not amass enough points over the rest of the season. I think we will lose quite a few and draw quite a few I think we are a terrible team to watch and in my opinion, nothing less than something out of the ordinary like a SC win, will change my wish to see the back of him. If the thread is not about opinion, but about what you think will actually happen, then I suppose his negative approach might get him a new one year contract. I repeat and hope and think he will slip quietly out the door in May.

[jeffers]

Nonsense to you maybe but not to me. I thought this was a question of opinion. In my opinion, his approach to the game will not amass enough points over the rest of the season. I think we will lose quite a few and draw quite a few I think we are a terrible team to watch and in my opinion, nothing less than something out of the ordinary like a SC win, will change my wish to see the back of him. If the thread is not about opinion, but about what you think will actually happen, then I suppose his negative approach might get him a new one year contract. I repeat and hope and think he will slip quietly out the door in May.

Totally agree with all of that. I still feel under Fenlon we are only ever one game away from a shocking result.

[Andy74]

Totally agree with all of that. I still feel under Fenlon we are only ever one game away from a shocking result.

Why aren't the stats showing that up to now ?

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Top six is the minimum requirement. If we are not comfortably in that position by the turn of the year I can't see him getting another shot at the transfer window.

[jeffers]

Why aren't the stats showing that up to now ?

Why would the stats show that ? I said I feel under him we are only ever one game away from a shocking result. It was only 3 league games ago we lost by 3 to Inverness and could quite easily have lost by 5 or 6 by all accounts.

I have been to every home game this season, of them I quite enjoyed the St Mirren game and the games against Stranraer and Celtic on Saturday. The rest of the games I have been bored stiff by his negative football.

[Andy74]

Why would the stats show that ? I said I feel under him we are only ever one game away from a shocking result. It was only 3 league games ago we lost by 3 to Inverness and could quite easily have lost by 5 or 6 by all accounts.

I have been to every home game this season, of them I quite enjoyed the St Mirren game and the games against Stranraer and Celtic on Saturday. The rest of the games I have been bored stiff by his negative football.

So we are really three away from a shocking result?

[jeffers]

So we are really three away from a shocking result?
I'm pretty sure you know full well what I meant.

[Franck Stanton]

Whilst watching the game on BT Sport yesterday, had to laugh when one of the guest commentators when speaking of the pressure Fenlon had recently been under stated that he was impressed by the manner in which it was handled by the Club, Players and Fans. He also went on to say that they didn't make a big deal of it and were not shouting for the managers head. Obviously isn't a reader of .Net now is he.

[Speedy]

Mowbray available :greengrin

[brydekirk]

Not the football I want to watch, sorry.

[DaveF]

Why aren't the stats showing that up to now ?

Stats can be a right bugger at times. 2 home wins in the league this year is a bit of a naff one don't you think?

[Andy74]

I'm pretty sure you know full well what I meant.

Not really. You are saying we've had one bad result in 9 but we are only one away from a shocking result. We are not really are we?

[B.H.F.C]

Big thing for me that he still needs to do is get the home form sorted out. It's been one of the things Pat has continually talked about since he came in but has never really improved to the extent it should have. Here we are at the end of October with two home wins in the league this year.

Pat has delivered, arguably, the two worst results in our history. If for instance we finish fourth this year and he goes we aren't going to look back in years to come and talk about Pat Fenlon being the man that led us to fourth place in the league. He will be remembered for those two games. Therefore I think he needs something that is a major achievement. That probably means winning something for me. We have a great chance of doing that this year.

Results wise we can't complain with what we've seen recently. I just hope that the results give the players the confidence to kick on and play some stuff that is a bit easier on the eye. We were in the same position at the start of last season, 8 unbeaten I think, and things unravelled once we hit winter. Hopefully that doesn't happen this time.

I really believe next Wednesday is massive for Pat. Get through this tie and I think he could start to get some people back on side. Lose and I think it'll be like being back to square one.

[jeffers]

Not really. You are saying we've had one bad result in 9 but we are only one away from a shocking result. We are not really are we?

OK fair enough, maybe you didn't get me. I'm saying he doesn't convince me and I have no confidence that any run we are on won't be ended by another shocking result, it's been that way since he has been in charge. You appear to be happy with what you are seeing and with the recent set of results - I'm not.

[FitbaFolkKen]

I genuinely don't think he s getting enough credit for the turn round in our fortunes, I said in another thread if a new man had come in and done it he would be a "miracle worker".

For years we have complained about being soft touches, losing games too easily and being walked over. We finally have a side with a bit pf pride that appear to genuinely be fighting for the club, and more importantly the manager. As plenty have said a couple of these results have been some of the worst in our history. Look at how quickly some of our previous managers have lost the dressing room, it appears there is no indication of that under Pat. In fact quite the opposite after the 4 defeats at the start of the season the team have rallied.

His signings for this season on the whole look strong, our squad is night and day to what he inherited and we are actually winning games. The style will come with confidence and the return of players like Cairney and Harris.

Look around the SPFL and our club is in a decent place right now, still work to do but I would definitely rather be in our position than the majority of the other clubs.


For what it is worth I would have quite happily seen the back of him after the first four games of the season as I thought he was out of his depth. I would be delighted if he continues to prove me, and many others on here wrong.

[Sir David Gray]

I would give it until around Christmas before making a certain decision but I would be very tempted to extend his contract.

This year is the first season for a while where I feel that there is any kind of stability within the club in terms of the players on the pitch. I think that we finally have players, in the main, who I feel could be with us for the next 2-3 years. Since Fenlon has come in, we have been overloaded with loan players and players on short term deals who were never going to be with us for any length of time.

I think we are starting to see the benefits of that and although we are still some way away from where we want to be, I think the signs are positive that we are heading in the right direction.

I really want it to work out for Fenlon. He has had a lot of criticism thrown his way during his time in charge and I feel some of that criticism has been over the top. I would be delighted for him if he manages to have some success with us.

[Andy74]

OK fair enough, maybe you didn't get me. I'm saying he doesn't convince me and I have no confidence that any run we are on won't be ended by another shocking result, it's been that way since he has been in charge. You appear to be happy with what you are seeing and with the recent set of results - I'm not.

Every run will be ended by a bad result.

[Andy74]

Big thing for me that he still needs to do is get the home form sorted out. It's been one of the things Pat has continually talked about since he came in but has never really improved to the extent it should have. Here we are at the end of October with two home wins in the league this year.

Pat has delivered, arguably, the two worst results in our history. If for instance we finish fourth this year and he goes we aren't going to look back in years to come and talk about Pat Fenlon being the man that led us to fourth place in the league. He will be remembered for those two games. Therefore I think he needs something that is a major achievement. That probably means winning something for me. We have a great chance of doing that this year.

Results wise we can't complain with what we've seen recently. I just hope that the results give the players the confidence to kick on and play some stuff that is a bit easier on the eye. We were in the same position at the start of last season, 8 unbeaten I think, and things unravelled once we hit winter. Hopefully that doesn't happen this time.

I really believe next Wednesday is massive for Pat. Get through this tie and I think he could start to get some people back on side. Lose and I think it'll be like being back to square one.

Worst two results in our history??

[superbam]

regardless of how successful we are this season, I doubt he will stick around.

[Northernhibee]

I would offer him another two seasons.

[Northernhibee]

For the record I'm unhappy with Pat re: the Malmo game but I don't blame him for 5-1, with Calderwood starting that season for us we would have been gubbed regardless of dodgy ref.

I'd have fancied my chances with this team.

[Thecat23]

Ok the way I see it, he stays and we play mostly negative boring football and scrape results. Crowds don't improve and we keep losing money through this.

Or

We keep grinding out results and end up top 3. Not saying either will happen by the way. As Andy pointed out about 1 loss in 9 or something, we've only won two league games since Jan or something like that. Stats can work in favour of both arguments.

It comes down to what most football fans want to see. A team who tries but may fail and finish bottom/mid/top table or a team that sets not to lose and also could finish bottom/mid/top of the table. I'll be honest the way Hibs are now and believe me in much better shape than the previous years when managers have left us. This could be a great time to say, thanks Pat you steadied the ship took us as far as you could and then bring in say "hypothetically" McCall to try install a better style of play along with what Pat has installed defensively?

I personally wouldn't care if he left if I'm honest I think the club is ready to move forward with a better man.

[B.H.F.C]

Worst two results in our history??

A 5-1 defeat to Hearts in the Scottish Cup final. A 7 nil defeat at home in Europe, 9 nil on aggregate. I did say arguably, but surely there can't be too many worse? I don't just mean the actual score lines but the context of the results.

In fact I don't think there is anything to argue about. Hibs losing 5-1 to Hearts in a cup final is the worst ever.

[Elephant Stone]

What makes you think he'll want to stay?

[Robinho08]

I wish people would stop talking about winning a trophy. All I want for now is to beat Hearts in the next round. If and when that happens, then we should discuss further rounds.

This!

[Andy74]

A 5-1 defeat to Hearts in the Scottish Cup final. A 7 nil defeat at home in Europe, 9 nil on aggregate. I did say arguably, but surely there can't be too many worse? I don't just mean the actual score lines but the context of the results.

In fact I don't think there is anything to argue about. Hibs losing 5-1 to Hearts in a cup final is the worst ever.

I think it's the context of both that means they aren't amongst the very worst. Not sure either were truly the fault of this manager either.

[B.H.F.C]

I think it's the context of both that means they aren't amongst the very worst. Not sure either were truly the fault of this manager either.

He was the man in charge of for them. He is the man that has said he is responsible for footballing issues. In terms of the context of the results 5-1 to them speaks for itself. The European one was the heaviest defeat suffered by a Scottish club in Europe which puts us in the record books for the wrong reasons. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that he needs to do something that puts him in the record books for the right reason. Otherwise when we look back at his time whenever he has left those results I mentioned will be what he is remembered for.

Just getting back to topic what I would say is that based on his two years in charge I haven't seen enough to keep him. It's clear that he will be there for at least the remainder of his contract so he has a chance to change that. If we sustain the current results we will finish in a decent position. Would that alone be enough to convince people to come back? I'm not so sure it would be based on what a lot of people are saying about lack of entertainment and also some of the disastrous results that have went before.

[Northernhibee]

He was the man in charge of for them. He is the man that has said he is responsible for footballing issues. In terms of the context of the results 5-1 to them speaks for itself. The European one was the heaviest defeat suffered by a Scottish club in Europe which puts us in the record books for the wrong reasons. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that he needs to do something that puts him in the record books for the right reason. Otherwise when we look back at his time whenever he has left those results I mentioned will be what he is remembered for.

Just getting back to topic what I would say is that based on his two years in charge I haven't seen enough to keep him. It's clear that he will be there for at least the remainder of his contract so he has a chance to change that. If we sustain the current results we will finish in a decent position. Would that alone be enough to convince people to come back? I'm not so sure it would be.

If we have a consistent season that sees us high up the table we'd be mad not to keep him on IMO.

[The Modfather]

Not sure either were truly the fault of this manager either.

Is there just one of you or is there a team Andy74s, similar to the Hibernian Retro team ;), that scour the internet for anything critical of Fenlon. You never miss a post.

If those results weren't truly his fault then I'm not giving him any credit for Saturday either. You can't pick and choose what results Fenlon is responsible for to suit your view.

[SMAXXA]

OK fair enough, maybe you didn't get me. I'm saying he doesn't convince me and I have no confidence that any run we are on won't be ended by another shocking result, it's been that way since he has been in charge. You appear to be happy with what you are seeing and with the recent set of results - I'm not.

Yiu could say that about most teams tho, look at ICT and the pumping they got from St J and Partick beat them, both teams we have beat?

I happy with the steady progress we are making personally and believe it will only get better.

[FranckSuzy]

Is there just one of you or is there a team Andy74s, similar to the Hibernian Retro team ;), that scour the internet for anything critical of Fenlon. You never miss a post.

If those results weren't truly his fault then I'm not giving him any credit for Saturday either. You can't pick and choose what results Fenlon is responsible for to suit your view.

I hope not :rolleyes:

[snooky]

I would offer him another two seasons.

:agree: Tell him it's Thyme he got the Fingerroot!

[Emerald]

Is there just one of you or is there a team Andy74s, similar to the Hibernian Retro team ;), that scour the internet for anything critical of Fenlon. You never miss a post.

If those results weren't truly his fault then I'm not giving him any credit for Saturday either. You can't pick and choose what results Fenlon is responsible for to suit your view.
Spot on mate.

[Hero76]

Is there just one of you or is there a team Andy74s, similar to the Hibernian Retro team ;), that scour the internet for anything critical of Fenlon. You never miss a post.

If those results weren't truly his fault then I'm not giving him any credit for Saturday either. You can't pick and choose what results Fenlon is responsible for to suit your view.

andy is all over the interwebs especially FB, usually spouting crap.

[Jonnyboy]

Is there just one of you or is there a team Andy74s, similar to the Hibernian Retro team ;), that scour the internet for anything critical of Fenlon. You never miss a post.

If those results weren't truly his fault then I'm not giving him any credit for Saturday either. You can't pick and choose what results Fenlon is responsible for to suit your view.

Hasn't stopped him doing it so far :wink:

[stantonhibby]

"What would it take to keep him" ... :crazy:???? As far as I'm concerned he should be emptied as soon as possible. He has shown nothing to convince me that he can produce a team that we can be proud of, one that will challenge for 2nd spot in the SPFL and win trophies. I don't expect him to do any of that, to be honest. Having said that - if he won a trophy for the club - and I wouldn't want him here to achieve it by default, the other team would have to turn up - then I would feel that he had deserved the chance to remain a bit longer in the manager's seat. We don't win trophies often enough to chase anyone who succeeds in doing so out the door just after having done so. Still, it's not going to happen. The more interesting question, I feel is: what will it take to get rid of him? Getting beat 0-7 at home to some Swedish outfit, or losing 1-5 to Hearts in a cup final is not enough apparently .... how bad does it have to get?

So even if Fenlon wins a cup youll only give him credit if the other team has turned up? No idea what that means . He really cant win with some folk. Bit pathetic really.

[SMAXXA]

So even if Fenlon wins a cup youll only give him credit if the other team has turned up? No idea what that means . He really cant win with some folk. Bit pathetic really.

This :agree:

[Northernhibee]

"What would it take to keep him" ... :crazy:???? As far as I'm concerned he should be emptied as soon as possible. He has shown nothing to convince me that he can produce a team that we can be proud of, one that will challenge for 2nd spot in the SPFL and win trophies. I don't expect him to do any of that, to be honest. Having said that - if he won a trophy for the club - and I wouldn't want him here to achieve it by default, the other team would have to turn up - then I would feel that he had deserved the chance to remain a bit longer in the manager's seat. We don't win trophies often enough to chase anyone who succeeds in doing so out the door just after having done so. Still, it's not going to happen. The more interesting question, I feel is: what will it take to get rid of him? Getting beat 0-7 at home to some Swedish outfit, or losing 1-5 to Hearts in a cup final is not enough apparently .... how bad does it have to get?

Is it that bad? Four wins from five, avoided defeat in eight out of nine games, a settled squad, looking at yet another cup semi final, squad depth, good youngsters getting game time...

A couple more flair players in the next couple of windows to add more excitement and we should be very good IMO.

[PeeJay]

So even if Fenlon wins a cup youll only give him credit if the other team has turned up? No idea what that means . He really cant win with some folk. Bit pathetic really.

OK .... physically turn up on the day, i.e. at the stadium, on the park, I wouldn't want him to win because the other team failed to arrive on time, then he wouldn't deserve as much credit ... poor attempt at "humour" on my part :hide:, but not PATHETIC as in getting beat 1-5 by Hearts of 0-7 at home by Malmö - and he really "can't win" with me by beating Partick or drawing with Celtic: it will have to be a miracle of ginormous proportions before he wins with me: winning one trophy or one league won't be enough.(not a joke :greengrin)....

[PeeJay]

Is it that bad? Four wins from five, avoided defeat in eight out of nine games, a settled squad, looking at yet another cup semi final, squad depth, good youngsters getting game time...

A couple more flair players in the next couple of windows to add more excitement and we should be very good IMO.
I can see where you are coming from; I think the results you refer to - in a short-term view are of course OK, the league standing is currently OK. The "football" is awful however, and long-term I see no future with this man and his "vision" - I don't think he actually has a vision; we are a million miles from modern-day football or FFF! A battling Hibs against Celtic is fine, but against Partick Thistle? Generally, I am shocked at how poor we are as a team in an extremely poor SPFL with Hearts in free fall and Rangers gone. We haven't won anything yet or achieved anything - and from what I've seen of his teams, we won't do either.

[Beefster]

I think it's the context of both that means they aren't amongst the very worst. Not sure either were truly the fault of this manager either.

I can just about see the logic behind the "5-1 wasn't his fault" (but it was really) but you really believe that the heaviest defeat in Scottish European footballing history, after 21 months in the job, wasn't his fault?

How can you give him credit for good results and absolve him of blame for horrific ones?

[gorgie greens]

Win the League Cup.

Win the Scottish Cup.

Finish 2nd in the league.

Anything other than all of the above and I'd bin him.

some people will never be happy,i know we all like silky football pleasing on the eye,and we have had to watch stuff where you want to stick neadles in them,
PF had to go back to basics at ER and changing managers like underwear is not the answer,we need some stable times at ER and credit where credit is due,he has turned us around after the worse start anyone would imagine,if we keep reaching Scottish cup finals like we have under PF i wont complain because one day it will go our way,
Look at Chelski under the Jose ,they are not pretty on the eye,but they get trophies and PF had a good CV before he came to Hibs and i would like us to be a bit more consistant than we have been,
i must admit i love the games like we had against Celtic ,total passion and a get in tae them ,and id rather have a team giving 100% ,I for one hopes the tash is in talks over a new contract with PF

[Andy74]

I can just about see the logic behind the "5-1 wasn't his fault" (but it was really) but you really believe that the heaviest defeat in Scottish European footballing history, after 21 months in the job, wasn't his fault?

How can you give him credit for good results and absolve him of blame for horrific ones?

More responsible for that than the 5-1. However, I think playing a European game without getting many players in yet or getting them up to speed then having to go with one recognised defender and four 19 year olds wouldn't really have been his choice of approach.

[Andy74]

andy is all over the interwebs especially FB, usually spouting crap.

Not sure what Andy you are talking about but that's not me.

[Beefster]

More responsible for that than the 5-1. However, I think playing a European game without getting many players in yet or getting them up to speed then having to go with one recognised defender and four 19 year olds wouldn't really have been his choice of approach.

The pre-Malmo home game situation probably wasn't ideal but every result could be put down to a combination of positive or negative factors. A manager gets paid to make decisions based on the players he has available and the opposition. In the Malmo game (and the Cup Final(s)), Fenlon got it horrifically wrong IMHO.

[SMAXXA]

I can see where you are coming from; I think the results you refer to - in a short-term view are of course OK, the league standing is currently OK. The "football" is awful however, and long-term I see no future with this man and his "vision" - I don't think he actually has a vision; we are a million miles from modern-day football or FFF! A battling Hibs against Celtic is fine, but against Partick Thistle? Generally, I am shocked at how poor we are as a team in an extremely poor SPFL with Hearts in free fall and Rangers gone. We haven't won anything yet or achieved anything - and from what I've seen of his teams, we won't do either.


We are definitely not as bad as you make us out to be that's for sure. In a short term view we were poor (start if the season) although unlucky to lose against hearts and Motherwell as nothing in the games, the last 9 games is not short term in comparison to the poor period of results we had at the start. Rather than focus on the positives and say we have and are improving, you just keep bringing it back to these results to fit your agenda IMO.

[The Modfather]

More responsible for that than the 5-1. However, I think playing a European game without getting many players in yet or getting them up to speed then having to go with one recognised defender and four 19 year olds wouldn't really have been his choice of approach.

We had players missing from Saturdays draw, should we withold the credit for Fenlon until he gets a full team available or does it only not count if it's a negative result. I know I am being a little obtuse, but given a part time team more than held their heads high against Malmo in the previous round I don't think you can absolve any blame from Fenlon.

Ever since the Falkirk semi final we knew when the Europa league dates would be, so it is a very thin argument, IMO, to use the lack of signings in time for that game as an excuse.

By all means back Fenlon if that is your perspective, but try and at least step out of your romantacised view of history once every so often.

[Winston Ingram]

I would say if the team started performing on a regular basis. Not just getting results. We more often that not look disjointed, we don't play good football and far more often than not, if we do get a result we sneak it.

In comparison to nearly every SPL club, we have a far bigger budget than they do yet we continue to struggle. He's had 2 years and signed almost 30 players.

We are woefully inconsistent, he continues to play players in wrong position, him leaving us woefully short in wide areas and the football we play is poor.

I'd be really surprised if he gets a new deal cos he certainly hasn't earned one.

[Andy74]

We had players missing from Saturdays draw, should we withold the credit for Fenlon until he gets a full team available or does it only not count if it's a negative result. I know I am being a little obtuse, but given a part time team more than held their heads high against Malmo in the previous round I don't think you can absolve any blame from Fenlon.

Ever since the Falkirk semi final we knew when the Europa league dates would be, so it is a very thin argument, IMO, to use the lack of signings in time for that game as an excuse.

By all means back Fenlon if that is your perspective, but try and at least step out of your romantacised view of history once every so often.

Yes he is responsible for it, but that's different from saying that he caused it. Our squd needed to be built for the,ong term with the right players so tough, the Euro games were too early for that and we suffered.

I don't think we can legistlate too much for the players we laos had missing or the fact it all just went for Malmo on the night.

It was a very poor and embarassing result but in the scheme of things there needs to be some persepctive on it and why it happened.

At the time the chat here was we were miles behind St Johnstone and SPFL teams would hammer us every week. Hasn't really worked out that way has it?

[The Modfather]

Yes he is responsible for it, but that's different from saying that he caused it. Our squd needed to be built for the,ong term with the right players so tough, the Euro games were too early for that and we suffered.

I don't think we can legistlate too much for the players we laos had missing or the fact it all just went for Malmo on the night.

It was a very poor and embarassing result but in the scheme of things there needs to be some persepctive on it and why it happened.

At the time the chat here was we were miles behind St Johnstone and SPFL teams would hammer us every week. Hasn't really worked out that way has it?

So you're saying was "responsible" for those two results also not "truly at fault" for them. I don't really understand your position, it sounds like political spin to me.

I just think it is as ridiculous and revisionist to try and absolve Fenlon from those results as it is to simply ignore our results in the last 8 or so games.

[Andy74]

So you're saying was "responsible" for those two results also not "truly at fault" for them. I don't really understand your position, it sounds like political spin to me.

I just think it is as ridiculous and revisionist to try and absolve Fenlon from those results as it is to simply ignore our results in the last 8 or so games.

There is a difference between responsibility and whether the persons actions caused the issues.

He was manager so of course he was responsible.

Would you argue the 5-1 was the fault of Fenlon though? I'm sure there was the odd thing he could have done differently but he didn't cause the factors that all came to play on that one.

I'd say he was more at fault for the Malmo game but again I'm not sure how much of it I would say he caused through his own choices or actions.

It's more the singling out of these two things as if they were horrifically bad abberations on his part that he caused which is wrong. Yes they are part of an overall performance but theey are being used to far outweigh anything else and in the cirumstances of both that's not really telling the whole story.

The 5-1 thing is particularly pathetic as its only now being brought back out. I though it was broadly agreed that it was Hearts cheating along with a very poor refereeing performance that were the main things and that it was the ultimate reference of Hearts overspending when they were owing money to creditors and charities all over the place?

[147lothian]

When we played our ugly neightbours in the cup final, everyone knows what the budget for their team was compated to ours, yet I feel, if Fenlon went out to stop them playing, he would have had the old chestnut of too negative, thrown up again, he has eventually got us hard to beat, you can only play certain ways if you have the right type of player, if Fenlon can get another creative midfielder/forward and Harris back, his style of play will change.

When you look at our league positions the two years prior to Fenlon and the two after, I think he's doing quite well with whats available to him

[Thecat23]

There is a difference between responsibility and whether the persons actions caused the issues.

He was manager so of course he was responsible.

Would you argue the 5-1 was the fault of Fenlon though? I'm sure there was the odd thing he could have done differently but he didn't cause the factors that all came to play on that one.

I'd say he was more at fault for the Malmo game but again I'm not sure how much of it I would say he caused through his own choices or actions.

It's more the singling out of these two things as if they were horrifically bad abberations on his part that he caused which is wrong. Yes they are part of an overall performance but theey are being used to far outweigh anything else and in the cirumstances of both that's not really telling the whole story.

The 5-1 thing is particularly pathetic as its only now being brought back out. I though it was broadly agreed that it was Hearts cheating along with a very poor refereeing performance that were the main things and that it was the ultimate reference of Hearts overspending when they were owing money to creditors and charities all over the place?

The one thing he got horrifically wrong that day and the players brought it up was that Hearts battered us doen the left hand side and Kujabi had 2 players to try track and was left very exposed. Fenlon didn't address this and Kajabi as poor as he was didn't stand a chance and Hearts exposed this weakness. That's just poor management plain and simple. As for the over all result we all know the ref did help them out with a lot of decisions and that helped with the scoreline.

[Golden Bear]

If we go back to the 5-1 mauling in that embarrassing Cup Final, I had the misfortune to see the team bus on its way to Hampden and if ever there looked like a team of losers on board, then that was us.

With the exception of Griffiths, the players looked absolutely petrified at the very thought of the occasion and what transpired proved that they were just not "winners"

It's the Manager's job to mentally prepare the players for what should have been a chance to make history and he singularly failed to do so. (and the final v Celtic was not much better).


Nah - enough's enough, there's no way I want PF at the helm for much longer.

[NatureBoy]

I'm a lot like many Hibs fans who wanted Fenlon gone after the first two games, at that point I just couldn't see a way back for him. Credit where it's due he's stuck to his guns and rode out the storm somewhat.

I remain far from convinced, but if he keeps progressing us I would like to see him get a new deal. He has given the club much needed stability and on the whole has signed a better quality of player.

I agree with folk saying the football has been awful to watch at times. I suspect people wouldn't have a issue with this IF it produced consistent results, which it hasn't thus far and therein lies the problem.

My worry is gambling on a new manager and ending up with another CC or Yogi. We can all be guilty of having short memories of those dark days.

[Andy74]

If we go back to the 5-1 mauling in that embarrassing Cup Final, I had the misfortune to see the team bus on its way to Hampden and if ever there looked like a team of losers on board, then that was us.

With the exception of Griffiths, the players looked absolutely petrified at the very thought of the occasion and what transpired proved that they were just not "winners"

It's the Manager's job to mentally prepare the players for what should have been a chance to make history and he singularly failed to do so. (and the final v Celtic was not much better).


Nah - enough's enough, there's no way I want PF at the helm for much longer.

Yep and he had identified that and emptied them all largely.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I still wonder why there are so many "football managers" on here who know exactly what was wrong and how it should have been addressed yet have never managed a football team. Strange one to me.

[PatHead]

I am still a bit unsure of PF however I do feel he has gotten a lot of un-necessary criticism and some supporters are just unwilling to change their minds. I have only been to home games and missed the Malmo one so I might have slightly rose tinted spectacles. We were bad against Motherwell, awful against Ross County and until the sending off poor against Dundee United. However we were good against Celtic and St Mirren and scored 5 goals against Stranraer. It is a big improvement and I think things will get better. Wish more folk would get behind the team instead of boycotting it until Fenlon gets the sack. These keyboard experts get on my tits

[ronaldo7]

If he gets us top 4 and another visit to Hampden, I think the board will offer a rolling 1 year contract. Whether Pat accepts it is another matter.

[Beefster]

I still wonder why there are so many "football managers" on here who know exactly what was wrong and how it should have been addressed yet have never managed a football team. Strange one to me.

Using your logic, the only folk in the media qualified to speak about football are the ones who are ex-managers.

I've never been a politician or run the country but I still feel able to give an opinion on where they go wrong.

[Thecat23]

I still wonder why there are so many "football managers" on here who know exactly what was wrong and how it should have been addressed yet have never managed a football team. Strange one to me.


I managed a team and in my first season won the league cup :greengrin So i'm more qualified than you!!!!:wink:

[Aldo]

I managed a team and in my first season won the league cup :greengrin So i'm more qualified than you!!!!:wink:

Aye but that was FM11 was it not. :-)

[Thecat23]

Aye but that was FM11 was it not. :-)

Nope, was real life football. Sunday league mind you!! :greengrin

[Glesgahibby]

Win the League Cup.

Win the Scottish Cup.

Finish 2nd in the league.

Anything other than all of the above and I'd bin him.
This comes close IMO
I have told "all I know"that IMO hibs will finish second and play in 2 finals this year :cb
This may be a bold statement(i know)but at the end of the day why not?
I think we are at that stage where the benifits of consistency within the management of our club is starting to bare fruit :agree:.
This is now Pat Fenlons squad and his alone,it has taken an age in manys eye to get this far:agree:
I think we have(without injuries)the strongest squad in the league(without Celtic)
This stage is when we should judge pat on his tactics and team selections :agree:
so far all I can see is "one game at a time" and so far all I can see is it working :agree:
:pfgwa:pfgwa:pfgwa:thumbsup::wink:

[Aldo]

Nope, was real life football. Sunday league mind you!! :greengrin

;-)

[147lothian]

Some people seem to think PF should bring on Arthur Duncan to add a different style of football, I too would love to see a return to that type of football, but I hate to be the barer of bad news but its just not possible with the personel available to PF, Lennons critism should be seen as a back handed compliment, because he knows his team were in a game and Hibs were hard to beat.

Getting the team to play like that shows that PF has learned from the 5 - 1 and 7 - 0 games added to that the recent religation battles, Fenlon seems to be addressing the issue of being a soft touch, this I think he has been his primary objective, and he deserves a bit of credit for that

[Just_Jimmy]

Short of a cup and second. Nout. Even then it would be grudged.

Still awful to watch
Still cant change a game often enough

[Captain Trips]

It lloks like we are difficult to beat, really? Is that it? Is this what 2yrs down the line we are at? This is everything that is wrong with the appointment.

Dotting the i(s) and crossing the t(s) by this juncture not perhaps we are difficult to beat which IMO we no more difficult to beat than lots of other teams.

[hibbydog]

I think we're a bit quick to forget the scale of the task pat faced when he arrived. He's achieved the initial objectives of

1. Getting rid of the deadwood
2. Changing our culture
3. Make us fight as a unit

It's now time to kick on and

4. Achieve a good league finish (4th or higher)
5. Start playing more entertaining football
6. Give hearts a good pasting
7. Win a trophy

He's archived the first half of the list, albeit with a coupe of disastrous results along the way. It's taken a couple of years which I reckon is reasonable. I'm happy to give him more time if he achieves 2 or 3 of the points on the second half of objectives.

He's making steady progress and has proven to be a decent bloke who genuinely cares. Too much of a risk to change again at the end of the season I'd say. So long as it's made clear that the entertainment needs to improve

[SMAXXA]

I think we're a bit quick to forget the scale of the task pat faced when he arrived. He's achieved the initial objectives of

1. Getting rid of the deadwood
2. Changing our culture
3. Make us fight as a unit

It's now time to kick on and

4. Achieve a good league finish (4th or higher)
5. Start playing more entertaining football
6. Give hearts a good pasting
7. Win a trophy

He's archived the first half of the list, albeit with a coupe of disastrous results along the way. It's taken a couple of years which I reckon is reasonable. I'm happy to give him more time if he achieves 2 or 3 of the points on the second half of objectives.

He's making steady progress and has proven to be a decent bloke who genuinely cares. Too much of a risk to change again at the end of the season I'd say. So long as it's made clear that the entertainment needs to improve

Hasnt he pretty much achieved all his targets then so far. Gradual progression just it as quick as some would believe is realistic.

lets not forget, despite he results getting to 2 Scottish cup finals has brought some much needed cash into the club which has allowed him to bring in the quality he has this season. Now it's starting to settle down a bit I think we will kick on, albeit with some failings on the way.

[Sir David Gray]

I think we're a bit quick to forget the scale of the task pat faced when he arrived. He's achieved the initial objectives of

1. Getting rid of the deadwood
2. Changing our culture
3. Make us fight as a unit

It's now time to kick on and

4. Achieve a good league finish (4th or higher)
5. Start playing more entertaining football
6. Give hearts a good pasting
7. Win a trophy

He's archived the first half of the list, albeit with a coupe of disastrous results along the way. It's taken a couple of years which I reckon is reasonable. I'm happy to give him more time if he achieves 2 or 3 of the points on the second half of objectives.

He's making steady progress and has proven to be a decent bloke who genuinely cares. Too much of a risk to change again at the end of the season I'd say. So long as it's made clear that the entertainment needs to improve

You've hit the nail on the head for me in your first sentence.

The club was an absolute mess when Calderwood left and we were in serious danger of being relegated that season and I think that is sometimes overlooked by a lot of people.

Things haven't been great at times under Fenlon and it was disappointing last season, considering how well we started but we saw a massive improvement on the year before and this season, I think we are seeing another step forward.

I don't think Fenlon is anywhere near as bad as some people make him out to be and I believe he does have the club's best interests at heart.

I hope we do well this season and I would be more than happy if he does enough to earn an extension to his contract.

[147lothian]

Some people seem have forgotten that one year we never got religated because Hamilton were really ***** the next because Dunfermline were really shyyyyte, thats how bad we were before Fenlon came in and its the extent of the task that he was faced with, also just because we have a fantastic fan base doesn't mean PF got a fantastic budget, Fenlon could only dream of being to attract a player that can demand a salary of 5.5k a week like Goodwillie does at dundee united

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I still wonder why there are so many "football managers" on here who know exactly what was wrong and how it should have been addressed yet have never managed a football team. Strange one to me.

If people didn't state their opinions on forums such as this they wouldn't last long.

[Beefster]

Some people seem have forgotten that one year we never got religated because Hamilton were really ***** the next because Dunfermline were really shyyyyte, thats how bad we were before Fenlon came in and its the extent of the task that he was faced with, also just because we have a fantastic fan base doesn't mean PF got a fantastic budget, Fenlon could only dream of being to attract a player that can demand a salary of 5.5k a week like Goodwillie does at dundee united

Dundee United are decreasing their wage bill and did so over the summer, irrespective of how much of Goodwillie's wages they are paying. It just means they pumped more into one player than the three or four they actually need.

On the other hand, Dundee United could only dream of shelling out £200k on a new striker or recruiting a fair number of players from established SPL clubs and giving them an increase in salary. Some of the arguments in Fenlon's defence have some substance. Any arguments about his budget in relation to the vast majority of the SPL outside Celtic don't.

[IWasThere2016]

Some people seem have forgotten that one year we never got religated because Hamilton were really ***** the next because Dunfermline were really shyyyyte, thats how bad we were before Fenlon came in and its the extent of the task that he was faced with, also just because we have a fantastic fan base doesn't mean PF got a fantastic budget, Fenlon could only dream of being to attract a player that can demand a salary of 5.5k a week like Goodwillie does at dundee united

There is no way on this earth that DUFC are paying £5.5k a week for Goodwillie.

Arabs paid £2k a week of Webster's c. £15k a week to Der Hun - and I would make an educated guess it's £2k for Goodwillie also.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Using your logic, the only folk in the media qualified to speak about football are the ones who are ex-managers.

I've never been a politician or run the country but I still feel able to give an opinion on where they go wrong.

No, that is not what I said. I said that people feel they know better how to manage a team than people who are qualified to do it. I personally would always prefer a professional to an amateur.


I managed a team and in my first season won the league cup :greengrin So i'm more qualified than you!!!!:wink:

Totally agree. I am not qualified to manage a football team at all. Just the same as the vast majority of people on here:wink:

[Lucius Apuleius]

If people didn't state their opinions on forums such as this they wouldn't last long.

Good. :wink::greengrin

There is a difference between having an opinion, in my opinion, and slating a professional for doing a job that you are not qualified for.

[Captain Trips]

I think we're a bit quick to forget the scale of the task pat faced when he arrived. He's achieved the initial objectives of

1. Getting rid of the deadwood
2. Changing our culture
3. Make us fight as a unit

It's now time to kick on and

4. Achieve a good league finish (4th or higher)
5. Start playing more entertaining football
6. Give hearts a good pasting
7. Win a trophy

He's archived the first half of the list, albeit with a coupe of disastrous results along the way. It's taken a couple of years which I reckon is reasonable. I'm happy to give him more time if he achieves 2 or 3 of the points on the second half of objectives.

He's making steady progress and has proven to be a decent bloke who genuinely cares. Too much of a risk to change again at the end of the season I'd say. So long as it's made clear that the entertainment needs to improve

Nobody forgets and 2yrs on that is still used as an excuse. We should be well passed that now but arguably we are still just difficult to beat apparently. PF needs compared to managers whom where up fighting for 3rd or 4th not CC.

It all seems to go back to CC, it shouldnt have been too hard to be a better manager than CC should it? CC isnt a marker and just because we are doing better doesnt mean its acceptable.

There has been progress and IMO it is all rather stagnant.

[hibbydog]

Nobody forgets and 2yrs on that is still used as an excuse. We should be well passed that now but arguably we are still just difficult to beat apparently. PF needs compared to managers whom where up fighting for 3rd or 4th not CC.

It all seems to go back to CC, it shouldnt have been too hard to be a better manager than CC should it? CC isnt a marker and just because we are doing better doesnt mean its acceptable.

There has been progress and IMO it is all rather stagnant.

It depends on what you're expectations are. I think we should be second in the league and getting a shout in one if the cups, but I'm prepared to accept that we aren't going to get there overnight.

But yes, 2 years is a decent period to address the mess. We now need to kick on and improve the style of football/ league position / pump hearts a couple of times.

So pats made steady, modest, incremental improvement but the jury's still out.

Opinions eh?!

[LioNeilMessi]

There is no way on this earth that DUFC are paying £5.5k a week for Goodwillie.

Arabs paid £2k a week of Webster's c. £15k a week to Der Hun - and I would make an educated guess it's £2k for Goodwillie also.

I don't have a source on hand but I think it's pretty well known that Utd are paying half of Goodwillie's wage, which is at least 10k at Blackburn. Sale of Russell in the Summer and a bunch of their players leaving the club make £5.5k a week entirely possible, although perhaps not sensible.

[PatHead]

I don't have a source on hand but I think it's pretty well known that Utd are paying half of Goodwillie's wage, which is at least 10k at Blackburn. Sale of Russell in the Summer and a bunch of their players leaving the club make £5.5k a week entirely possible, although perhaps not sensible.

Dundee Utd are definitely not paying £5.5k a week for Goodwillie (from a very good source though I doubt he can compete with a Hibs.net FACT). I can also tell you that a lot of Goodwillie's wages from Blackburn were depending on number of appearances, goals etc so it may not be as high as £10k per week. The majority of the Jonny Russell money went to reducing debt which means Dundee Utd are doing well financially just now, hence they turned down £400k for the young centre half. They would not ruin all that just to get Goodwillie back. It was still a good bit of business though

[LioNeilMessi]

Dundee Utd are definitely not paying £5.5k a week for Goodwillie (from a very good source though I doubt he can compete with a Hibs.net FACT). I can also tell you that a lot of Goodwillie's wages from Blackburn were depending on number of appearances, goals etc so it may not be as high as £10k per week. The majority of the Jonny Russell money went to reducing debt which means Dundee Utd are doing well financially just now, hence they turned down £400k for the young centre half. They would not ruin all that just to get Goodwillie back. It was still a good bit of business though

My source isn't even a hibs.net FACT, the Goodwillie signing sparked a bit of an argument amongst some United fans I worked with over the summer (is he worth the 5k a week etc etc), so my sources probably originates from a DUFC.net FACT :greengrin

If your guy is right and he is on a reasonable wage then I would agree it is good business.

[147lothian]

There is no way on this earth that DUFC are paying £5.5k a week for Goodwillie.

Arabs paid £2k a week of Webster's c. £15k a week to Der Hun - and I would make an educated guess it's £2k for Goodwillie also.

DUFC are reducing their wage bill like everyone else in the SPL, thats a fact, but I remember, reading that when he signed his 4 year contract with Blackburn Rovers, the agreement was that DUFC would pay half his wages and that he was on 11k

[GreenPJ]

Good. :wink::greengrin

There is a difference between having an opinion, in my opinion, and slating a professional for doing a job that you are not qualified for.

On that basis its always wrong for a manager to be sacked because of fan pressure?

[Keith_M]

I went to the Bakers today and got two steak Pies. When I got them home, I discovered the meat wasn't properly cooked and the crust had mould on it.

I decided that, as someone who has never spent the years required to train as a Baker and having no qualifications in the subject, it wasn't right for me to criticise. So, I just ate them.

[Emerald]

I went to the Bakers today and got two steak Pies. When I got them home, I discovered the meat wasn't properly cooked and the crust had mould on it.

I decided that, as someone who has never spent the years required to train as a Baker and having no qualifications in the subject, it wasn't right for me to criticise. So, I just ate them.

At least your pies came in the team colours then :greengrin

[Keith_M]

At least your pies came in the team colours then :greengrin


Naw, it was blue mould. Quite tasty though :wink:

[Lucius Apuleius]

I went to the Bakers today and got two steak Pies. When I got them home, I discovered the meat wasn't properly cooked and the crust had mould on it.

I decided that, as someone who has never spent the years required to train as a Baker and having no qualifications in the subject, it wasn't right for me to criticise. So, I just ate them.

Quite rightly so. However if you don't see the difference in this scenario which is objective compared to the subjective, in my opinion, of the football scenario then you deserve to be eating mould pies. :-). Sure hope it wasn't one of Lindleys pies.

[Miguel]

If we beat Hearts in QF, finish top six, avoid any more humiliating results and show genuine signs of progress, I would keep him, but anything short of that...