John Collins

[greenpaper55]

Good article on the way the game should be played with just a hint of what went on at ER.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/interview-john-collins-believes-in-beautiful-game-1-3138422

[Thecat23]

This reads like one of my posts from the Partick game :D

“We talk about wanting to see football played the right way – passing and moving through the team. People might say that’s just my opinion on how to play the game, but no, no, sorry. There are different ways to win games, yes, but there is only one proper way to teach players how to play football. It is called foot-ball, so we use the foot and players should know how to pass the ball and receive it. It’s not air-ball, or head-ball."

[Fife-Hibee]

That was a good read, got a lot of time for JC !

[Craig_in_Prague]

Wonder if he is a fan of Fenlon lol

[Scorrie]

Really good article. Wondered what would have happened if he had stayed at Hibs. Am sure he wanted us to play the right way though not sure about some of his signings

[Golden Bear]

Really good article. Wondered what would have happened if he had stayed at Hibs. Am sure he wanted us to play the right way though not sure about some of his signings

I often think that it's a pity that Hibs were JC's first stab at Club management as I'm sure he would have benefited from cutting his teeth elsewhere. As for his signings, then were they really his or were they based on the knowledge of Tommy Craig?

Either way, I'd have him back at ER anytime but there's zero chance of that ever happening.

[GlenrothesHibee]

I'd much rather have Fenlon in charge than Collins. Even Duffy's signings were better than JC's ones! Won us a cup with a fantastic set of footballers and then failed miserably. I wouldn't want him anywhere near Easter Road again.

[coco22]

I really like Collins and his vision of the game is definitely to be applauded. There are significant changes being made to the game, with regards to skills focus and achievement, at early stages that should filter through over coming years.

Unfortunately, as Collins found out, unless you get everyone on board with changes then it is very difficult to move forward with a plan. I hope he manages to put his strategy into place somewhere so he can be proven right.

[Golden Bear]

I'd much rather have Fenlon in charge than Collins. Even Duffy's signings were better than JC's ones! Won us a cup with a fantastic set of footballers and then failed miserably. I wouldn't want him anywhere near Easter Road again.

Heathen!

:wink:

[worcesterhibby]

It's a pity he wasn't brought in as a coach rather than a manager. He obviously had a lot to learn about man management and I'm sure he has learned from some of those mistakes. I'll bet players like Fletcher and Scott Brown who have now played at a higher level, realise that the fitness regimes that collins tried to bring in were standard for more successful clubs. I just got the feeling that he never bonded with the players first and never managed to get them to buy in to his vision.

[Brooster]

Collins can talk the talk just a pity he couldn't walk the walk. His signings were atrocious.

[Geo_1875]

It's a pity he wasn't brought in as a coach rather than a manager. He obviously had a lot to learn about man management and I'm sure he has learned from some of those mistakes. I'll bet players like Fletcher and Scott Brown who have now played at a higher level, realise that the fitness regimes that collins tried to bring in were standard for more successful clubs. I just got the feeling that he never bonded with the players first and never managed to get them to buy in to his vision.

Probably better as a director of football type role with others dealing with players. If there were more people who bought into his philosophy we might have moved forward. And the fitness thing does not come naturally to our homegrown players.

[Peevemor]

I'd much rather have Fenlon in charge than Collins. Even Duffy's signings were better than JC's ones! Won us a cup with a fantastic set of footballers and then failed miserably. I wouldn't want him anywhere near Easter Road again.

Well said.

[J-C]

I remember hearing that the younger players at the club Stevenson etc were right into his football ethos and loved it, as has been mentioned a certain faction didn't appreciate the clean living, hard working professional set up he was trying to instil in the squad. This pro attitude does make a huge difference to players, look at Charlie Adams, always over weight and never realised his potential, till he realised what he had to do to get to the top in the game, all the talent but zero professionalism.

As for his signings, I think he relied heavily on Craig at that time.

[Andy74]

This reads like one of my posts from the Partick game :D

“We talk about wanting to see football played the right way – passing and moving through the team. People might say that’s just my opinion on how to play the game, but no, no, sorry. There are different ways to win games, yes, but there is only one proper way to teach players how to play football. It is called foot-ball, so we use the foot and players should know how to pass the ball and receive it. It’s not air-ball, or head-ball."

When he left we were in a lower position than we are now.

The football may have been based on a vision of playing football but in its own way was getting fairly dire at that stage too. Short pass from the keeper to defenders who passed it to each other circa while before the opposition took the ball off us back there.

I'd have loved to have seen his ideas work but comparing the records of Fenlon and Collins shows that only one of them could call themselves a football manager.

[clerriehibs]

I'd much rather have Fenlon in charge than Collins. Even Duffy's signings were better than JC's ones! Won us a cup with a fantastic set of footballers and then failed miserably. I wouldn't want him anywhere near Easter Road again.

I wish failure in everything they ever do on every single one of those 'players' that marched up to Petrie's door. Not one of them could lace JC's boots, and never will be able to.

Their child-like actions, and probably Petrie's acceptance of it, have led to us having years in the doldrums.

[Peevemor]

I remember hearing that the younger players at the club Stevenson etc were right into his football ethos and loved it, as has been mentioned a certain faction didn't appreciate the clean living, hard working professional set up he was trying to instil in the squad. This pro attitude does make a huge difference to players, look at Charlie Adams, always over weight and never realised his potential, till he realised what he had to do to get to the top in the game, all the talent but zero professionalism.

As for his signings, I think he relied heavily on Craig at that time.

Wendy Craig?

[Peevemor]

When he left we were in a lower position than we are now.

The football may have been based on a vision of playing football but in its own way was getting fairly dire at that stage too. Short pass from the keeper to defenders who passed it to each other circa while before the opposition took the ball off us back there.


This.

[allezsauzee]

I'd much rather have Fenlon in charge than Collins. Even Duffy's signings were better than JC's ones! Won us a cup with a fantastic set of footballers and then failed miserably. I wouldn't want him anywhere near Easter Road again.

Nobody's signings were worse than Jim Duffy's! JC didn't get the financial backing other managers have had. He signed players who had good physical attributes with the hope that he could coach them

[J-C]

Wendy Craig?


Eh Tommy Craig :confused::confused:

[The Modfather]

To me it's very telling that by and large we all agree on Collins principles and ethos, there was some sort of "revolt" that bitterly splits opinion but we all agree was fundamental in the parting of ways. Yet just a few years later we had players having to have a second pre season midway through the season and then a chairman who could no longer ignore the rotten culture that prevailed within the club.

I really do wonder if the end if the season is the time for a few egos, on both sides, to be swallowed, and time for the return of JC. Fenlon appears to have done some/a lot of work behind the scenes in improving the culture and attitude of the club. With this new lay of the land is it the perfect opportunity for Collins to really take us forward. Also bring in someone (Jimmy Nicholl?) with real experience and a player network to help with recruitment - not a jobs for the boys type in Tommy Craig.

I would buy in 100% to that project.

[HH81]

Anyone have any thoughts on why Collins has not made it as a manger at higher level than Hibs?

[J-C]

Anyone have any thoughts on why Collins has not made it as a manger at higher level than Hibs?

By the sounds of the article, it looks like he's been going all round Europe learning and gaining more experience talking to coaches etc plus he's doing his tv pundit stuff.

[Craig_in_Prague]

Anyone have any thoughts on why Collins has not made it as a manger at higher level than Hibs?

Neither will Fenlon and he is getting 3 years at it at Hibs.

Poor signings but some of the football was brilliant. He didn't have a long stay so who knows how it would have went, but the 81% cup game and taken the jarkko wiss out of the huns at Ibrox + our best day as a Hibs supporter are just some highlights. I will remember Pat for several humiliations and horrible football that drove thousands of fans away, perhaps forever.

[HH81]

Neither will Fenlon and he is getting 3 years at it at Hibs.

Poor signings but some of the football was brilliant. He didn't have a long stay so who knows how it would have went, but the 81% cup game and taken the jarkko wiss out of the huns at Ibrox + our best day as a Hibs supporter are just some highlights. I will remember Pat for several humiliations and horrible football that drove thousands of fans away, perhaps forever.

On paper Collins to me has everything to be a top manager, it has not happened for him. I am going to guess it wont either.

I agree a lot of PF time at Hibs has been poor, a lot of English clubs will look at his record in the cups and take a punt in him, I think he will have to drop to maybe league 2. He will not be offered a new contract at Hibs though IMO.

[greenpaper55]

As someone else suggested he was to close to Tommy Craig and for a first time manager it made a lot of sense to have someone of his experience working with him but the reality was some poor signings who were obviously Craigs recommendations , maybe we would still be toiling in the league if he was still our manager but at least it would be easier on the eye !.

[Ozyhibby]

I've been on course presented by JC and have another two day one coming up at the end of the month. He's perfectly suited to the role he is in just now and I happen to think it's more important than being manager of a football club. If we are going to change the way we play the game in this country then coach education is the most important part of it.

[jdships]

Collins can talk the talk just a pity he couldn't walk the walk. His signings were atrocious.

:thumbsup:
Says it all for me plus he was struggling with " Man Management"
Great guy to spend time with - as you say he is a great conversationalist on many subjects :agree:
Sadly proves , once again , a good/great player doesn't always make a good manager

[johnbc70]

Said it before and will say it again, would happily give JC complete control of the football club to reshape it top to bottom.

[Kaiser1962]

Collins can talk the talk just a pity he couldn't walk the walk. His signings were atrocious.
:agree:
There's a lot of it about.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

You can see how Collins can be comfortable behind a presenters desk and holding fast to these opinions, but you can play neat wee triangles all day but there has to be a positive outcome more often than not. If you do not win games it does not make any odds how you played if you still lose.

[RickyS]

When he left we were in a lower position than we are now.

The football may have been based on a vision of playing football but in its own way was getting fairly dire at that stage too. Short pass from the keeper to defenders who passed it to each other circa while before the opposition took the ball off us back there.

I'd have loved to have seen his ideas work but comparing the records of Fenlon and Collins shows that only one of them could call themselves a football manager.

i used to be terrified when Makalamby (who had clearly been told he MUST pass to a defender from a goal kick) gave the ball to Jones who just did not want it, teams used to just press us high up the pitch, that system lead to quite a few howlers from those two.

[Thecat23]

When he left we were in a lower position than we are now.

The football may have been based on a vision of playing football but in its own way was getting fairly dire at that stage too. Short pass from the keeper to defenders who passed it to each other circa while before the opposition took the ball off us back there.

I'd have loved to have seen his ideas work but comparing the records of Fenlon and Collins shows that only one of them could call themselves a football manager.

Have to agree with you Andy, his vision on the game was great but sadly after the cup game we didn't play anywhere near good enough. His signings were shocking as well. If you could have Fenlon's signings and play the way Collins wanted that would be worth a watch.

[Thecat23]

i used to be terrified when Makalamby (who had clearly been told he MUST pass to a defender from a goal kick) gave the ball to Jones who just did not want it, teams used to just press us high up the pitch, that system lead to quite a few howlers from those two.

I was the same, you just knew a **** up was never far away. The players used to panic when closed down. It's great to know how to play but you need to do it right and with confidence. When we did it was great to watch like the cup final. Other games though was poor.

[Craig_in_Prague]

What was JCs total W/D/L? What is Pats?

[Craig_in_Prague]

Have to agree with you Andy, his vision on the game was great but sadly after the cup game we didn't play anywhere near good enough. His signings were shocking as well. If you could have Fenlon's signings and play the way Collins wanted that would be worth a watch.

Very harsh to say only one of them is a football manager. I have more respect for the guy that produced our best ever performance at Hampden obviously than others.

[GreenPJ]

What was JCs total W/D/L? What is Pats?

Who cares - I would watch a Collins team more than I would watch a Fenlon team. He had some good players with attitude and ability and then a significant number were sold/moved on. Whilst some of his signings were dodgy I would liked to have seen what the team was like after 3 years and would have expected a few more of the youngsters to have made it through the ranks playing in a consistent way with the ability to generate a sell on value.

[Craig_in_Prague]

Who cares - I would watch a Collins team more than I would watch a Fenlon team. He had some good players with attitude and ability and then a significant number were sold/moved on. Whilst some of his signings were dodgy I would liked to have seen what the team was like after 3 years and would have expected a few more of the youngsters to have made it through the ranks playing in a consistent way with the ability to generate a sell on value.

Was asking as some are slating JC whilst I aint!

[Expecting Rain]

It is an article which throws up no surprises really, money more than anything plays a major part in the way most teams set out to play, the players with the best techniques and footballing brains are bought at a high price. I remeber Alex Miller starting a season with three centre halfs at the back based on the Ajax system unfortunately we didn`t have the same personel, they had three dutch internationals!
I do agree though with trying to teach youngsters to try to play football on the ground with the focus being on skill, technique and movement and enjoying the process more than focusing on results, medals and cups.

[Thecat23]

Very harsh to say only one of them is a football manager. I have more respect for the guy that produced our best ever performance at Hampden obviously than others.

I never said only one is a manager. I thought Collins vision was superb for how he wanted us to play. But I know his man management was really poor. Also his signings were very poor. Tommy Craig as No.2 was laughable as well. I'm no fan of Pat btw and his football is eye bleeding at best. But if you could mix the two managers together I'd take that.

[blackpoolhibs]

Collins has said all the right things in that article, if we are all honest its what we'd all like to see at our club.

Collins is NOT the man to instill that vision though, as soon as he come up against anything that is a problem, his toys are out the pram and he's walked away from that problem.

Great philosophy i agree, but no balls to see it through.

[Vini1875]

I believe if Collins was backed by the board and allowed to progress younger players, while getting rid of the older pros who did not like the football ethos then we would be in better shape. As for his signings, it was bargain basement stuff, where it was difficult to find players who were up to the job. For what it is worth I think is slowly changing things at the club, but we still persist in the culture of players having a beevy and a bet, of thinking we shouldn't try to aspire to the levels of Spain and Germany.

If Hibs had a proper football ethos running through the club from 8 year olds to the first team we would see results instead of balancing the books each year and hoping for the best. More guys like Collins at the club would help that.

[blackpoolhibs]

I believe if Collins was backed by the board and allowed to progress younger players, while getting rid of the older pros who did not like the football ethos then we would be in better shape. As for his signings, it was bargain basement stuff, where it was difficult to find players who were up to the job. For what it is worth I think is slowly changing things at the club, but we still persist in the culture of players having a beevy and a bet, of thinking we shouldn't try to aspire to the levels of Spain and Germany.

If Hibs had a proper football ethos running through the club from 8 year olds to the first team we would see results instead of balancing the books each year and hoping for the best. More guys like Collins at the club would help that.

Can you tell me ANY manager we have employed who has not been backed to do this?

As for his signings, Boozy, Murphy,Jones,Killen,Benji,Zemamma,Stewart and Konte are just 8 players the manager before him managed to sign from the very same bargain bucket.

[Capt Mainwaring]

Got a lot of time for JC but the harsh reality is that he was an incredibly poor man manager, had no talent for signing players and frankly bottled it and left Hibs when the going got tough.

Talks a great game and I'm sure would be a good coach but never a Manager. I think his managerial career after he left Hibs is testament to that.

I'll always be grateful to him for his performances in a Hibs jersey ( easily in my all time Hibs XI) and for a fantastic day at Hampden in 07.

[_hucks_]

what was jcs total w/d/l? What is pats?

jc 23/15/16
pf 31/18/35

[Golden Bear]

Got a lot of time for JC but the harsh reality is that he was an incredibly poor man manager, had no talent for signing players and frankly bottled it and left Hibs when the going got tough.

Talks a great game and I'm sure would be a good coach but never a Manager. I think his managerial career after he left Hibs is testament to that.

I'll always be grateful to him for his performances in a Hibs jersey ( easily in my all time Hibs XI) and for a fantastic day at Hampden in 07.

:agree:

Plus he earned our Club a cool £1 million when he was transferred to Celtic.

Thank you JC - for these things I'll be eternally grateful.

[KeithTheHibby]

I'd much rather have Fenlon in charge than Collins. Even Duffy's signings were better than JC's ones! Won us a cup with a fantastic set of footballers and then failed miserably. I wouldn't want him anywhere near Easter Road again.


Don't talk nonsense. What we are watching under Fenlon is abysmal. You have totally missed the point anyway about the article. JC may have bought some duds but then again so does every manager. The way JC wants to play the game was not bought by the Hibs players at the time and the majority of them went greeting to Petrie. I ask you now how many of those players have went on to achieve anything in the last 6 years? I will give you Steven Fletcher and perhaps Scott Brown but that is it.

[KeithTheHibby]

Collins can talk the talk just a pity he couldn't walk the walk. His signings were atrocious.

Don't let this article get in the way of a reason to slag off JC.

Remind me who was the last manager to lead us to a trophy? Don't even try to say it wasn't his team, JC had to win 3 games with that team and had been in charge almost 6 months by the time the final came along.

[Craig_in_Prague]

jc 23/15/16
pf 31/18/35

So 43% win compared to 37%.
5.1 cup final win compared to a loss.
Some of the best performances in modern times (81% game, Ibrox performance, 3-2 against Celtic, amongst others).
Hmmmm

Not to mention it was his 1st managerial job, Pat is experienced.

[KeithTheHibby]

When he left we were in a lower position than we are now.

The football may have been based on a vision of playing football but in its own way was getting fairly dire at that stage too. Short pass from the keeper to defenders who passed it to each other circa while before the opposition took the ball off us back there.

I'd have loved to have seen his ideas work but comparing the records of Fenlon and Collins shows that only one of them could call themselves a football manager.


One of them had 10 years experience prior to taking the job. Oh and the other one won us our last national trophy.

[_hucks_]

So 43% win compared to 37%.
5.1 cup final win compared to a loss.
Some of the best performances in modern times (81% game, Ibrox performance, 3-2 against Celtic, amongst others).
Hmmmm

Not to mention it was his 1st managerial job, Pat is experienced.

There needs to be a large dollop of perspective when looking at the raw percentages, remember. JC took over an excellent squad performing well, PF took over a terrible squad in a relegation dogfight. That's not to say that I don't think Pat has underperformed, but looking at the two records is like apples and oranges when thinking about the jobs each of them had.

[KeithTheHibby]

:thumbsup:
Says it all for me plus he was struggling with " Man Management"
Great guy to spend time with - as you say he is a great conversationalist on many subjects :agree:
Sadly proves , once again , a good/great player doesn't always make a good manager


The Hibs gig was his first in management and looking back he would probably admit it was too much too soon.
I am delighted that the guy has taken time out from management and is now focusing on the coaching side as I believe he will come back and be a very successful manager. Probably not in this country as we are a shower of lazy *****s.

[KeithTheHibby]

Got a lot of time for JC but the harsh reality is that he was an incredibly poor man manager, had no talent for signing players and frankly bottled it and left Hibs when the going got tough.

Talks a great game and I'm sure would be a good coach but never a Manager. I think his managerial career after he left Hibs is testament to that.

I'll always be grateful to him for his performances in a Hibs jersey ( easily in my all time Hibs XI) and for a fantastic day at Hampden in 07.


How do you know that he has not turned down jobs?

Agree with your last point 100%.

[Golden Bear]

There's no way you can compare JC with PF - they're as different as chalk & cheese.

JC believed in the beautiful game while PF has introduced a devil's own brand of football to ER but we are where we are I guess.

Sadly.

[lapsedhibee]

Can you tell me ANY manager we have employed who has not been backed to do this?

As for his signings, Boozy, Murphy,Jones,Killen,Benji,Zemamma,Stewart and Konte are just 8 players the manager before him managed to sign from the very same bargain bucket.

7 players.

[The Falcon]

So 43% win compared to 37%.
5.1 cup final win compared to a loss.
Some of the best performances in modern times (81% game, Ibrox performance, 3-2 against Celtic, amongst others).
Hmmmm

Not to mention it was his 1st managerial job, Pat is experienced.

That's a bit of an unfair comparison. Collins inherited the best squad of players since the seventies and Fenlon inherited possibly the worst ever.

[Keith_M]

I realise this is a bit of a madcap, wacky notion but I actually think Fenlon and Collins would make an interesting management team.

Fenlon can spot a player and, as has been testified to by Leigh, he does have (at least some) man-management skills. Collins kows how the game should be played and would set out a team both to win and play in an entertaining manner.

Never gonna happen, obviously.

[Miguel]

To do what JC wants, you would have to do it with young players brought through an established system and that takes a long time. Most fans will not give a manager that amount of time and you also have the problem of the promising youngsters being picked off by bigger clubs as they show promise. The philosophy is a no brainier, but until supporters become more patient and structures like bigger leagues are created to allow for this to be implemented, it won't happen.
Maybe JC's place is as head of a framework to introduce this nationally rather than trying to do it via managing one club?

[RickyS]

I realise this is a bit of a madcap, wacky notion but I actually think Fenlon and Collins would make an interesting management team.

Fenlon can spot a player and, as has been testified to by Leigh, he does have (at least some) man-management skills. Collins kows how the game should be played and would set out a team both to win and play in an entertaining manner.

Never gonna happen, obviously.

i agree with you in principle but it was not him who spotted or signed him, he merely extended an existing agreement

[Keith_M]

To do what JC wants, you would have to do it with young players brought through an established system and that takes a long time. Most fans will not give a manager that amount of time and you also have the problem of the promising youngsters being picked off by bigger clubs as they show promise. The philosophy is a no brainier, but until supporters become more patient and structures like bigger leagues are created to allow for this to be implemented, it won't happen.
Maybe JC's place is as head of a framework to introduce this nationally rather than trying to do it via managing one club?


Or at his brainchild, East Mains?


:hmmm:

[Keith_M]

i agree with you in principle but it was not him who spotted or signed him, he merely extended an existing agreement


I know, I didn't mean that part of it. I was referring to the article this week where Leigh attributed his newer maturity and a turn around in his career to Fenlon.

[yekimevol]

I'd much rather have Fenlon in charge than Collins. Even Duffy's signings were better than JC's ones! Won us a cup with a fantastic set of footballers and then failed miserably. I wouldn't want him anywhere near Easter Road again.
:top marks

[yekimevol]

He walked out on hibs, thats enough for me.

[Keith_M]

I find the fact that Collins decided to walk out on Hibs unforgiveable, but that doesn't mean we should start distorting the facts.


To say that he won the cup then failed miserably is a gross distortion. After the cup win, we then had a terrible run of games, then won 10 league games in a row to go top of the league, then Hibs hit the customary winter slump.

The home attendances leading up to Collins' departure were as follows:

13,795 v Gretna
15,280 v Aberdeen
13,258 v ICT
16,125 v Celtc
14,500 v Kilmarnock
13,884 v St Mirren
17,015 v Hearts
14,440 v Dundee United
12,391 v Falkirk
16,217 v Rangers

Avg: 14,690 (The stadium capacity was 17,500)


If he was such a failure, why were so many people turning up every week to watch?

[Andy74]

I find the fact that Collins decided to walk out on Hibs unforgiveable, but that doesn't mean we should start distorting the facts.


To say that he won the cup then failed miserably is a gross distortion. After the cup win, we then had a terrible run of games, then won 10 league games in a row to go top of the league, then Hibs hit the customary winter slump.

The home attendances leading up to Collins' departure were as follows:

13,795 v Gretna
15,280 v Aberdeen
13,258 v ICT
16,125 v Celtc
14,500 v Kilmarnock
13,884 v St Mirren
17,015 v Hearts
14,440 v Dundee United
12,391 v Falkirk
16,217 v Rangers

Avg: 14,690 (The stadium capacity was 17,500)


If he was such a failure, why were so many people turning up every week to watch?

He wasn't a terrible failure.

The crowds were there from the Mowbray era and hung about.

Just now we are still recovering from Mixu, Hughes, CC and whilst Fenlon I think is doing fine we've had the Cup Final and European results that haVe scared away the walk ups that ventured back.

[Ozyhibby]

The ideal job for JC is to take over from Mark Wotte when he moves on. Hopefully that is a bit in the future as Mark Wotte is doing a good job but eventually you would want someone local in there.

[HibbiesandtheBaddies]

To do what JC wants, you would have to do it with young players brought through an established system and that takes a long time. Most fans will not give a manager that amount of time and you also have the problem of the promising youngsters being picked off by bigger clubs as they show promise. The philosophy is a no brainier, but until supporters become more patient and structures like bigger leagues are created to allow for this to be implemented, it won't happen.
Maybe JC's place is as head of a framework to introduce this nationally rather than trying to do it via managing one club?

:agree:

[Keith_M]

He wasn't a terrible failure.

The crowds were there from the Mowbray era and hung about.

Just now we are still recovering from Mixu, Hughes, CC and whilst Fenlon I think is doing fine we've had the Cup Final and European results that haVe scared away the walk ups that ventured back.

That's right, they all just carried on turning up in massive numbers purely out of habit.

OK, I give up. I've tried reason with you and you seem to have a warped way of looking at the world. Fair enough, if that's what floats your boat, you carry on.

[Andy74]

That's right, they all just carried on turning up in massive numbers purely out of habit.

OK, I give up. I've tried reason with you and you seem to have a warped way of looking at the world. Fair enough, if that's what floats your boat, you carry on.

I think I'm agreeing with you. Crowds come with good results and good football. Collins carried both for a bit then when we did have a bad spell I think we had enough leeway from the previous couple of years.

We've pretty much had neither other than small flurries the last few years.

[The Falcon]

Or at his brainchild, East Mains?


:hmmm:

Really?

East Mains was Collins brainchild?

[Finbar]

After reading the article I'd be interested to know how people feel about what Collins is saying. When he talks about Scottish players being as good as Spain does anyone take him seriously?

[Keith_M]

I think I'm agreeing with you. Crowds come with good results and good football. Collins carried both for a bit then when we did have a bad spell I think we had enough leeway from the previous couple of years.

We've pretty much had neither other than small flurries the last few years.


Sorry Andy, I'm in a bit of a grumpy mood today


:greengrin

[scoopyboy]

I find the fact that Collins decided to walk out on Hibs unforgiveable, but that doesn't mean we should start distorting the facts.


To say that he won the cup then failed miserably is a gross distortion. After the cup win, we then had a terrible run of games, then won 10 league games in a row to go top of the league, then Hibs hit the customary winter slump.

The home attendances leading up to Collins' departure were as follows:

13,795 v Gretna
15,280 v Aberdeen
13,258 v ICT
16,125 v Celtc
14,500 v Kilmarnock
13,884 v St Mirren
17,015 v Hearts
14,440 v Dundee United
12,391 v Falkirk
16,217 v Rangers

Avg: 14,690 (The stadium capacity was 17,500)


If he was such a failure, why were so many people turning up every week to watch?

No danger they won 10 league games in a row.

[scoopyboy]

Really?

East Mains was Collins brainchild?

IIRC it was Tony Mowbray that pushed for a training ground.

[Keith_M]

No danger they won 10 league games in a row.


Sorry, I can't believe I wrote that. I had intended to write 10 games undefeated. It was seven wins and three draws.



I should just go for a lie down before I write anything else stupid :greengrin

[Hiber-nation]

Sorry, I can't believe I wrote that. I had intended to write 10 games undefeated. It was seven wins and three draws.



I should just go for a lie down before I write anything else stupid :greengrin

5 wins and 3 draws in the league in 2007-08 up to and including the 1-0 at ibrox. The only game we lost was in the League Cup at Motherwell. Then we lost to Motherwell in the league when Morais got sent off and it all went downhill....

[Keith_M]

Statistics for 2007-08 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Hibernian_F.C._season) Season

The ten games undefeated were final game of 2006-7 against Celtic plus first nine of the season above.

[Golden Bear]

IIRC it was Tony Mowbray that pushed for a training ground.

:agree:

That's when I first heard it mentioned.

[scoopyboy]

Sorry, I can't believe I wrote that. I had intended to write 10 games undefeated. It was seven wins and three draws.



I should just go for a lie down before I write anything else stupid :greengrin


Undefeated is fine, couldn't remember 10 wins on the bounce.

[The Modfather]

Collins man management is often questioned. How did the players get on with him at Charleroi and Livingston? I'm sure there might be a degree of truth, but I wonder just how accurate these claims are given the context of Hibs and the rotten culture we've had/having to address.

It's not like there weren't players that bought into him and speak highly of him. Especially the younger players at the time.

[Ozyhibby]

Collins man management is often questioned. How did the players get on with him at Charleroi and Livingston? I'm sure there might be a degree of truth, but I wonder just how accurate these claims are given the context of Hibs and the rotten culture we've had/having to address.

It's not like there weren't players that bought into him and speak highly of him. Especially the younger players at the time.

A good manager will take a player who doesn't buy into what he's doing aside and tell him everything he needs to hear to get the best out of him while quietly engineering his departure. Full on confrontation rarely benefits anyone.

[blackpoolhibs]

7 players.

Which one is the odd one out?

[The Modfather]

A good manager will take a player who doesn't buy into what he's doing aside and tell him everything he needs to hear to get the best out of him while quietly engineering his departure. Full on confrontation rarely benefits anyone.

True, however when the players don't want to act like professional sportsmen (numerous indiscretions, drinking culture, Fenlon coming in and having to do a pre season mid way through the season as the players weren't fit enough etc etc)and things get so bad the chairman has to come out with "new summer, new Hibs" etc. Maybe a shape up or ship out approach is all that could be done with those impostors.

[lapsedhibee]

Which one is the odd one out?

Amadoodoo

[Hibby Bairn]

Leaving aside man management issues etc what JC says is spot on IMO. We actually do make a decent fist of this when our young 'uns play soccer sevens and then they start playing for trophies at U13 on full size pitches and goalies start lashing the ball up the park. It tends to go down hill from there IMO.

A bit shocked at some of the nastiness on here re JC. He won us our last cup and at times had Hibs playing some brilliant football. Will always remember beating 'Well 6-1 at Fir Park in his first game I think. :not worth Ripped them a second one.

Oh for such entertainment now.

[Unseen work]

I liked Collins but lets not forget there were a lot of rumours about him which you wouldn't want from a manager at the time. Yes he spoke well and played not bad football but he still had the majority of mowbarys team who were already playing that way and had some brilliant youngsters coming through. He did sign terrible players tho and hasn't done anything since leaving that makes me think it was a shame he left.

End of the day any random guy can speak about football and how it should be played and how he speaks is exactly what we would love to see. But he is in a non pressure situation so it's easy to say how easy it is and that everyone should play this way.

However... Actions speak louder than words though

[blackpoolhibs]

Amadoodoo

Thats just madness. :wink:

[Jonnyboy]

Thats just madness. :wink:

Nope. This is madness :wink:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwIe_sjKeAY

[--------]

Collins man management is often questioned. How did the players get on with him at Charleroi and Livingston? I'm sure there might be a degree of truth, but I wonder just how accurate these claims are given the context of Hibs and the rotten culture we've had/having to address.

It's not like there weren't players that bought into him and speak highly of him. Especially the younger players at the time.


That's true, but it would seem to me that the senior players didn't buy in and didn't think at all highly of him. In some cases it must have been very difficult having to work for a boss who was physically fitter than they were and who could demonstrate that fact any time he chose. In other cases it might have been no more than an attitude of "Who does he think he is telling me how I should keep myself fit?" Well actually, he was the manager and first-team coach, and he had every right to tell the players how he expected them to keep themselves fit, and to what exact standard.

I often wonder what would have transpired had Hibs appointed someone other than Tommy Craig as JC's "mentor" - someone with experience of football on the Continent, for example, someone with some idea of what honesty and integrity meant, someone who supported him and guided him rather than undermining him as Craig did. I'm not even sure he needed a 'mentor' - probably an assistant manager/coach with a more player-friendly appraoch would have done. JC the bad cop, the other guy the good cop, working together to push the players forward.

I can't say I wouldn't have touched Craig with a barge-pole, but if I had, I'd have made sure I hit him VERY VERY HARD INDEED with it. And then pushed him under the water and held him down. :devil:

I also wonder what would have transpired if Petrie had given him 100% unequivocal support when those players turned up on his doorstep that night, sent them packing, then called their bluff and terminated a few contracts?

I mean, if I have a boss who tells me how he wants me to do my job, then that's how I do my job. And if his methods prove successful (as JC's methods did on March 18th 2007), then I don't see what justifiable complaint I could possibly have about continuing to do my job as my boss tells me to do. It wasn't as if JC hadn't brought home the silverware.

[Jonnyboy]

That's true, but it would seem to me that the senior players didn't buy in and didn't think at all highly of him. In some cases it must have been very difficult having to work for a boss who was physically fitter than they were and who could demonstrate that fact any time he chose. In other cases it might have been no more than an attitude of "Who does he think he is telling me how I should keep myself fit?" Well actually, he was the manager and first-team coach, and he had every right to tell the players how he expected them to keep themselves fit, and to what exact standard.

I often wonder what would have transpired had Hibs appointed someone other than Tommy Craig as JC's "mentor" - someone with experience of football on the Continent, for example, someone with some idea of what honesty and integrity meant, someone who supported him and guided him rather than undermining him as Craig did. I'm not even sure he needed a 'mentor' - probably an assistant manager/coach with a more player-friendly appraoch would have done. JC the bad cop, the other guy the good cop, working together to push the players forward.

I can't say I wouldn't have touched Craig with a barge-pole, but if I had, I'd have made sure I hit him VERY VERY HARD INDEED with it. And then pushed him under the water and held him down. :devil:

I also wonder what would have transpired if Petrie had given him 100% unequivocal support when those players turned up on his doorstep that night, sent them packing, then called their bluff and terminated a few contracts?

I mean, if I have a boss who tells me how he wants me to do my job, then that's how I do my job. And if his methods prove successful (as JC's methods did on March 18th 2007), then I don't see what justifiable complaint I could possibly have about continuing to do my job as my boss tells me to do. It wasn't as if JC hadn't brought home the silverware.

Agree with most of what you say Doddie but it shouldn't be forgotten that JC insisted upon TC as his assistant. They go back a long way and Craig, by JC's own admission, was a a very positive influence on JC's early days as a professional.

Maybe JC let his heart rule his head but TC was not the right man for the job, as you allude to in your post

[truehibernian]

The youngsters at Livi loved him - mind they hadn't been blinded by being overpaid, thinking they're important celebrities and know it all 😉

The type of stuff Michael Stewart is coming out with now on a nauseating scale.

Collins was ruthless in a sense and relentless in what he wanted - to me that's leadership qualities. He could have done with a younger assistant who could have been the bridge between players and management and not Tommy Craig.

[truehibernian]

In fact, a Collins and Mixu partnership would have worked a treat - both hate losing but Mixu is a players manager and has great humour.

[blackpoolhibs]

The youngsters at Livi loved him - mind they hadn't been blinded by being overpaid, thinking they're important celebrities and know it all 

The type of stuff Michael Stewart is coming out with now on a nauseating scale.

Collins was ruthless in a sense and relentless in what he wanted - to me that's leadership qualities. He could have done with a younger assistant who could have been the bridge between players and management and not Tommy Craig.

He insisted on Tommy Craig, he got his wish. He walked away after Petrie backed HIM not the players.

He'd be better suited to managing a club like Man City or Chelsea, where he can spend what he likes, and any player he replaces would mostly be a better quality one than the one thats left.

Managing at Hibs level is always going to throw up problems, and by walking away it told me he did not have the fight or bottle for it, thats not leadership qualities in my book.

[MWHIBBIES]

Impossible to compare him to Fenlon, the situations the took over in are completely different

[--------]

Agree with most of what you say Doddie but it shouldn't be forgotten that JC insisted upon TC as his assistant. They go back a long way and Craig, by JC's own admission, was a a very positive influence on JC's early days as a professional.

Maybe JC let his heart rule his head but TC was not the right man for the job, as you allude to in your post


Aye - I still can't quite work out why he wanted Craig. Craig did him no favours once the whatsit hit the air-con. The apple-eating interview ... :rolleyes:

If I'd been Petrie I'd have told him the job was his, but not with Craig. To start so well, and end in such a mess ....

[blackpoolhibs]

Aye - I still can't quite work out why he wanted Craig. Craig did him no favours once the whatsit hit the air-con. The apple-eating interview ... :rolleyes:

If I'd been Petrie I'd have told him the job was his, but not with Craig. To start so well, and end in such a mess ....

Can you imagine what would have been said if that had happened?

[Golden Bear]

[QUOTE=blackpoolhibs;3770222]He insisted on Tommy Craig, he got his wish. He walked away after Petrie backed HIM not the players.

He'd be better suited to managing a club like Man City or Chelsea, where he can spend what he likes, and any player he replaces would mostly be a better quality one than the one thats left.

Managing at Hibs level is always going to throw up problems, and by walking away it told me he did not have the fight or bottle for it, thats not leadership qualities in my book.[/QwUOTE]

That's the only flaw in his character that I can see. He MAY have seen that his halo was slipping and decided to cut and run while the going was good.

I suspect we'll never find out the truth.

[The Modfather]

That's true, but it would seem to me that the senior players didn't buy in and didn't think at all highly of him. In some cases it must have been very difficult having to work for a boss who was physically fitter than they were and who could demonstrate that fact any time he chose. In other cases it might have been no more than an attitude of "Who does he think he is telling me how I should keep myself fit?" Well actually, he was the manager and first-team coach, and he had every right to tell the players how he expected them to keep themselves fit, and to what exact standard.

I often wonder what would have transpired had Hibs appointed someone other than Tommy Craig as JC's "mentor" - someone with experience of football on the Continent, for example, someone with some idea of what honesty and integrity meant, someone who supported him and guided him rather than undermining him as Craig did. I'm not even sure he needed a 'mentor' - probably an assistant manager/coach with a more player-friendly appraoch would have done. JC the bad cop, the other guy the good cop, working together to push the players forward.

I can't say I wouldn't have touched Craig with a barge-pole, but if I had, I'd have made sure I hit him VERY VERY HARD INDEED with it. And then pushed him under the water and held him down. :devil:

I also wonder what would have transpired if Petrie had given him 100% unequivocal support when those players turned up on his doorstep that night, sent them packing, then called their bluff and terminated a few contracts?

I mean, if I have a boss who tells me how he wants me to do my job, then that's how I do my job. And if his methods prove successful (as JC's methods did on March 18th 2007), then I don't see what justifiable complaint I could possibly have about continuing to do my job as my boss tells me to do. It wasn't as if JC hadn't brought home the silverware.

You've made the point, a lot more eloquently than me, that I was trying to make. I find it impossible to believe Collins high standards and ethos and the revolt, and the subsequent rotten culture that got so bad Petrie had to public ally address are unrelated coincidences.

Collins is renowned for his high levels of fitness and professionalism, and a culture that required a mid season fitness programme. I know what I believe went on behind the scenes.

I'm willing to accept that it is plausible Collins approach/arrogance may naturally put some backs up, but the events post Collins and the subsequent culture issues suggests to me that the revolt may have been more about self interest and preservation of low standards rather than Collins' reported flaws.

[blackpoolhibs]

[QUOTE=blackpoolhibs;3770222]He insisted on Tommy Craig, he got his wish. He walked away after Petrie backed HIM not the players.

He'd be better suited to managing a club like Man City or Chelsea, where he can spend what he likes, and any player he replaces would mostly be a better quality one than the one thats left.

Managing at Hibs level is always going to throw up problems, and by walking away it told me he did not have the fight or bottle for it, thats not leadership qualities in my book.[/QwUOTE]

That's the only flaw in his character that I can see. He MAY have seen that his halo was slipping and decided to cut and run while the going was good.

I suspect we'll never find out the truth.

You could be right, but there is a lot of pish written about his time at the club. He walked away, nothing will change that. He also won us a cup, and some of the games he was in charge of were superb, nothing will change that either.

He was backed by the club with more money than previous managers, he was backed by the board when the players went to Petrie, but HE decided to walk.

Nothing will change the fact that he walked, and did not finish the job he wanted to do. I personally think he's not cut out to be a manager at Hibs level, i think he cant manage the problems that turn up at this level.

[The Modfather]

he was backed by the board when the players went to Petrie

No one knows what really went on, so it is all about opinions. However my opinion is I'm not 100% sure that statement is definitely true. I'm not necessarily saying Petrie backed the players over Collins, I think it could be a more complicated issue than simply who Petrie backed. To me Petrie is, and has been for a long time, proving he doesn't know how to run the football side of the business. So the subsequent cultural issues we've had/have since Collins really does make me wish I'd been a fly on the wall when all this was happening.

[Kaiser1962]

I also wonder what would have transpired if Petrie had given him 100% unequivocal support when those players turned up on his doorstep that night, sent them packing, then called their bluff and terminated a few contracts?



Other than send them packing, which would have been very foolish indeed, is that not pretty much what happened?

[Andy74]

Other than send them packing, which would have been very foolish indeed, is that not pretty much what happened?

It is.

[B.H.F.C]

Can debate all day what went on with JC, Petrie and the players but looking at it just from a football point of view I will always remember his time at Hibs because he won a trophy. That gave me the best day of my Hibs supporting life. In years to come I won't remember that we were 8th in the league or whatever it was when he left but I will remember that day at Hampden.

[Tyler Durden]

He wasn't a terrible failure.

The crowds were there from the Mowbray era and hung about.

Just now we are still recovering from Mixu, Hughes, CC and whilst Fenlon I think is doing fine we've had the Cup Final and European results that haVe scared away the walk ups that ventured back.

Don't really follow your logic here.

Fenlon is doing fine but we have had the 5-1 and Malmo results keeping fans away. Is Fenlon not responsible for those results and the consequences?

[blackpoolhibs]

Don't really follow your logic here.

Fenlon is doing fine but we have had the 5-1 and Malmo results keeping fans away. Is Fenlon not responsible for those results and the consequences?


Crowds did seem to come quite quickly when Mowbray took over, now we did have the stand up and be counted campaign.

Does anyone think it was that initiative that pulled the crowds in, or was it folk being entertained by the football on show?

[Andy74]

Don't really follow your logic here.

Fenlon is doing fine but we have had the 5-1 and Malmo results keeping fans away. Is Fenlon not responsible for those results and the consequences?

Whether he is responsible for those is probably a long conversation !

[TowerHibs]

Crowds did seem to come quite quickly when Mowbray took over, now we did have the stand up and be counted campaign.

Does anyone think it was that initiative that pulled the crowds in, or was it folk being entertained by the football on show?
i wouldnt open the curtains if the current hibs team were plying in the garden, let alone 25 sheets. i went every week under mowbray, collins as i saw a team who tried to entertain and with some footballers in amongst it.
ok jc team wasnt the greatest but they tried to play entertaining football. last 3/4 years there has been no effort to string 4/5 passes together and it shows with the drop in crowds. just watch the youtube video of us passing ball about at ibrox and only dream of it happening now

j

[--------]

Can you imagine what would have been said if that had happened?


I really don't know. Most of what's on this thread (including my own contributions) is largely surmise.

But I'm absolutely totally unconvinced that Petrie backed him after the players turned up on his doorstep (a well-publicised event IIRC - I wonder who called the press?). My recollection is of a fair bit of faffing about leading up to that embarrassment of a press conference when Craig was eating an apple and whispering in Collins' ear, and Rob Jones' interview when he gave the most unconvincing performance of his career.

The captain backing his manager? Aye, right.

On the other side of the issue I distinctly remember reading (at the time) that Collins had told the goalkeepers that in no circumstances were they to hoof the ball long out of their penalty area. If this indeed was the case, and I'm pretty certain it was, he was wrong. A goalie has to clear his lines long once in a while - if the opposition know that the ball's coming out short to the defenders every time, all they have to do is close those defenders down and they make life exceedingly difficult for them - especially if the defenders mostly have two left feet like Jones and Hogg had.

Collins' philosophy of the game was the right one, IMO, but he failed to appreciate the huge leap he was expecting some of the players to make if they were to master paying the ball out from the back as he wanted them to. When it came off it was superb (Ibrox a case in point) but when it didn't, it could lead to all sorts of embarrassments.

It also lead to the back four dropping deeper and deeper until they were playing right on the toes of the goalie.

All this said, these problems should have been all sorted out a long time ago. There's been a lot more things wrong at ER the past five years than the shortcomings or otherwise of the managers.

[FranckSuzy]

i wouldnt open the curtains if the current hibs team were plying in the garden, let alone 25 sheets. i went every week under mowbray, collins as i saw a team who tried to entertain and with some footballers in amongst it.
ok jc team wasnt the greatest but they tried to play entertaining football. last 3/4 years there has been no effort to string 4/5 passes together and it shows with the drop in crowds. just watch the youtube video of us passing ball about at ibrox and only dream of it happening now

j

Really? Wow.

[dp00]

Remember watching Collins in Ian Murray testimonial and think he still appeared fitter than some of the players who were playing

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

[God Petrie]

JC needs to apologise for the disgraceful way he left Hibs and the ludicrous excuses he gave for leaving the club.

He lost the dressing room and ultimately failed despite this weird romanticism about his time as manager.

[lucky]

Poor man's Roy Keane, fantastic player , but could not and will never understand lesser.players . His lack vision means he will .ever be employed by a top flight club again

[blackpoolhibs]

I really don't know. Most of what's on this thread (including my own contributions) is largely surmise.

But I'm absolutely totally unconvinced that Petrie backed him after the players turned up on his doorstep (a well-publicised event IIRC - I wonder who called the press?). My recollection is of a fair bit of faffing about leading up to that embarrassment of a press conference when Craig was eating an apple and whispering in Collins' ear, and Rob Jones' interview when he gave the most unconvincing performance of his career.

I'm no Petrie fan, and when it comes to waffle he's up there with the best. I do believe he backed Collins though. Its strange how you thought Craig was a terrible appointment as Collins number 2, and Petrie should never have sanctioned his appointment, yet Petrie is now somehow responsible for Craigs actions in that interview and Rob Jones too?

My information from this episode is Collins was indeed backed by Petrie, he was told he could do whatever it took to get this team how he wanted it, but under the same financial conditions he had when he took over.

The captain backing his manager? Aye, right.

Nothing to do with Petrie, and i agree the captain did not back the manager but Jones was told to get on with it and do as he was told.

On the other side of the issue I distinctly remember reading (at the time) that Collins had told the goalkeepers that in no circumstances were they to hoof the ball long out of their penalty area. If this indeed was the case, and I'm pretty certain it was, he was wrong. A goalie has to clear his lines long once in a while - if the opposition know that the ball's coming out short to the defenders every time, all they have to do is close those defenders down and they make life exceedingly difficult for them - especially if the defenders mostly have two left feet like Jones and Hogg had.

You will get no arguments about this from me, its great to play total football, but sometimes the ball has to move forward quicker, and especially as if you say those central defenders are not the best on the ball?

Collins' philosophy of the game was the right one, IMO, but he failed to appreciate the huge leap he was expecting some of the players to make if they were to master paying the ball out from the back as he wanted them to. When it came off it was superb (Ibrox a case in point) but when it didn't, it could lead to all sorts of embarrassments.

Again we agree.

It also lead to the back four dropping deeper and deeper until they were playing right on the toes of the goalie.

And again.

All this said, these problems should have been all sorted out a long time ago. There's been a lot more things wrong at ER the past five years than the shortcomings or otherwise of the managers.

Guesswork at best, each and every manager has had more to spend than most of our competitors, but Petrie has somehow managed to appoint men who are just not very good at all. Even you have said we have the players?

Personally i disagree, i dont think we have the players, i think we have a terrible defence and i'm not convinced we have the forwards either to score enough, and this is down to who the manager gets in, he has more funds than everyone else bar Celtic, how could this possibly be Petries fault other than who he appointed?

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

JC needs to apologise for the disgraceful way he left Hibs and the ludicrous excuses he gave for leaving the club.

He lost the dressing room and ultimately failed despite this weird romanticism about his time as manager.

Think that there is an awful lot more to being the manager of a football club than just how you want your team to play. Not sure that he grasped that and although he had huge experience gained both home and abroad about how to play the game, I am not sure he was equipped to deal with "desk" bits of the role and that found him out.

[blackpoolhibs]

Think that there is an awful lot more to being the manager of a football club than just how you want your team to play. Not sure that he grasped that and although he had huge experience gained both home and abroad about how to play the game, I am not sure he was equipped to deal with "desk" bits of the role and that found him out.

It's one thing to be able to play football, its another knowing how to teach it, especially to players nowhere near as good as he was.

[PeeJay]

Whether he is responsible for those is probably a long conversation !

Only if we succumb to practising the selective amnesia Fenlon apologist like yourself are prone to: according to your "logic" beating the mighty Partick Thistle is his responsibility, but losing to Hearts 1-5 in a cup final and getting destroyed 0-7 at Malmö or failing to make top 6 is something that requires a lengthy discussion to find the cuplrit responsible - that's really funny: your finest yet - maybe you meant is as a joke: either way it worked for me :faf:

[The Modfather]

JC needs to apologise for the disgraceful way he left Hibs and the ludicrous excuses he gave for leaving the club.

He lost the dressing room and ultimately failed despite this weird romanticism about his time as manager.

Lucky for us the dressing room prevailed. A better bunch of professional sportsmen dedicated to their profession you will not find. We've been basking in the culture they left for the last 6 years or so....:rolleyes:

I'd be a lot more inclined to look back critically at Collins' time had the subsequent culture in the club not been so poisonous. Fenlon appears to be getting credit for all the work "behind the scenes" and the work he has done on changing our culture. Collins tries to do the same, while winning a trophy and playing a brand of football that pulled the crowds in, yet he gets savaged by some for this. I just don't get it.

[Kaiser1962]

The youngsters at Livi loved him - mind they hadn't been blinded by being overpaid, thinking they're important celebrities and know it all 

The type of stuff Michael Stewart is coming out with now on a nauseating scale.

Collins was ruthless in a sense and relentless in what he wanted - to me that's leadership qualities. He could have done with a younger assistant who could have been the bridge between players and management and not Tommy Craig.

Not so sure about the overpaid bit in that Hibs were costcutting at the time and the wage bill was significantly less than when Mcleish was at the helm. I recall that Mowbrays wage budget in was 7th biggest in the SPL and a good number of those carried over into the Collins era.

Michael Stewart was, to all intents and puposes, sacked for his part in the "mutiny" so it is not the biggest shock I have had to hear his comments now.

Collins knew what he wanted, which is similar to what we all want, but his intent was tempered by reality and the bottom line was rather than work at it he walked away. So now he sits, sadly, talking about the game (I thought his recent interview was ghost written by Blackpool Hibs :greengrin ) rather than at a football club (any football club) puting his excellent words into action.

[matty_f]

Collins would have, in theory, been great as a Director of Football where he was given maybe 5 years to implement the changes from grass roots through to first team.

I think if he'd been given that role rather than the manager's job then he may well have revolutionised the club. The flip side is that history tells us he probably would've walked before finishing the job.

His views and theories are sound, imho. I would genuinely love to see if them put into practice over a period of time.

[blackpoolhibs]

Not so sure about the overpaid bit in that Hibs were costcutting at the time and the wage bill was significantly less than when Mcleish was at the helm. I recall that Mowbrays wage budget in was 7th biggest in the SPL and a good number of those carried over into the Collins era.

Michael Stewart was, to all intents and puposes, sacked for his part in the "mutiny" so it is not the biggest shock I have had to hear his comments now.

Collins knew what he wanted, which is similar to what we all want, but his intent was tempered by reality and the bottom line was rather than work at it he walked away. So now he sits, sadly, talking about the game (I thought his recent interview was ghost written by Blackpool Hibs :greengrin ) rather than at a football club (any football club) puting his excellent words into action.

:greengrin He has like myself always talked a good game, :wink: but even i would not have the likes of Rob Jones playing the ball out from defence like Baresi?

It ok to have his philosophy on the game, but first off you have to have the players to implement it. He tried to fit round squares into square holes, and rather than wait until he could get the right player, he decided to jump.

His players he brought in were in the main awful, we were on a downward slope when he left.

Someone else said he walked while his stock was still high, i wouldn't argue with that.

[Hibbyradge]

Collins talked a good game. No doubt about it.

But he didn't have the ability to make it happen.

His signings were almost unanimously very poor and his managerial style provoked a revolt amongst the players.

It matters not if what he wanted was desirable, the way he went about trying to achieve it was disastrous.

Players are human beings. It doesn't matter how much their being paid: if they're not being treated properly, they will react like anyone else.

A football manager needs people skills, tactical awareness and an ability to spot and recruit suitable staff.

2 out of three isn't enough and in my opinion, Collins only had one.

[Brightside]

The youngsters at Livi loved him - mind they hadn't been blinded by being overpaid, thinking they're important celebrities and know it all 

The type of stuff Michael Stewart is coming out with now on a nauseating scale.

Collins was ruthless in a sense and relentless in what he wanted - to me that's leadership qualities. He could have done with a younger assistant who could have been the bridge between players and management and not Tommy Craig.

I'd have JC back in a second. But it will never happen.

[eastterrace]

i wouldnt open the curtains if the current hibs team were plying in the garden, let alone 25 sheets. i went every week under mowbray, collins as i saw a team who tried to entertain and with some footballers in amongst it.
ok jc team wasnt the greatest but they tried to play entertaining football. last 3/4 years there has been no effort to string 4/5 passes together and it shows with the drop in crowds. just watch the youtube video of us passing ball about at ibrox and only dream of it happening now

j
glad a lot of the fans arent like you cause we wouldnt have a team left to support, well support you ever more ( as long as your half decent):rolleyes:

[The Modfather]

Collins talked a good game. No doubt about it.

But he didn't have the ability to make it happen.

His signings were almost unanimously very poor and his managerial style provoked a revolt amongst the players.

It matters not if what he wanted was desirable, the way he went about trying to achieve it was disastrous.

Players are human beings. It doesn't matter how much their being paid: if they're not being treated properly, they will react like anyone else.

A football manager needs people skills, tactical awareness and an ability to spot and recruit suitable staff.

2 out of three isn't enough and in my opinion, Collins only had one.

Why do you automatically assume the players were acting in a reasonable manner and acting like professional athletes? Do you believe it was a mere coincidence the culture that required Petrie to publicly address took root after Collins and the two are unrelated?

[Hibbyradge]

Why do you automatically assume the players were acting in a reasonable manner and acting like professional athletes? Do you believe it was a mere coincidence the culture that required Petrie to publicly address took root after Collins and the two are unrelated?

Well, I'll turn that around - why would you take the side of one person against a delegation of players when you don't know what was happening? That makes no sense.

The assumption I make is that something must have been very wrong for the players to do what they did.

It hadn't happened before and it hasn't happened since, either collectively or individually.

I also assume that the manager was aware that the players weren't happy in the weeks leading up to the meeting with Petrie. It was his job to resolve that unhappiness. If he wasn't aware, he should have been.

Whether he was trying to bring in change too quickly or just that his methods were universally unpopular, he should have managed it better.

The fact that Collins, despite his fine words, is now out of management totally, also suggests he's not cut out for it.

[ahibby]

I wouldn't blame either Tommy Craig or JC for the signings then. JC made it clear to all who would listen that he was asked to make lists of players he wanted for positions. Starting at 1st choice down to 5th choice. So he would name five players for one position he wanted to fill. He is on record as having said that he never got first or second choices, he did get third and fourth and even on one occasion fifth choice. That wasn't down to him or TC but the board. I am sure there are those who will nit pick about that. As some have pointed out on here his final season was abysmal, but he didn't have East Mains and look at the standard of football now that we do have it. He won the league cup and finished in the top six in the same season, with a quality of football that ensured we didn't just win the league cup but won it at a canter. Have we beaten an SPL team by four goals since? There is no doubt that he had the ability and vision to make players better if only they would listen. However, I am sad that the board took the side of those players who had no intention of staying with Hibs anyway to the detriment of those who have stuck with Hibs, namely Lewis Stevenson, who was man of the match in the League Cup final, has he played as well since? Having sung his praises I have to look at his weaknesses which surely where picking the wrong people to coach for him. In my view Tommy Craig wasn't the right man and evidence of that was brought to bare when he became caretaker manager and won nowt. He then went on to take Gareth Evans to Livingston and that failed too. So although his sentiment towards the game is admirable and in a perfect world probably would lead to attractive and successful football, and I can only say probably because there are just too many variables in football, his approach must be fundamentally flawed. However, I still believe he is capable of making players better if they are willing to follow his guidance and methods and I am sure that his tactics would be admirable in producing stylish attractive teams.

[blackpoolhibs]

I wouldn't blame either Tommy Craig or JC for the signings then. JC made it clear to all who would listen that he was asked to make lists of players he wanted for positions. Starting at 1st choice down to 5th choice. So he would name five players for one position he wanted to fill. He is on record as having said that he never got first or second choices, he did get third and fourth and even on one occasion fifth choice. That wasn't down to him or TC but the board. I am sure there are those who will nit pick about that. As some have pointed out on here his final season was abysmal, but he didn't have East Mains and look at the standard of football now that we do have it. He won the league cup and finished in the top six in the same season, with a quality of football that ensured we didn't just win the league cup but won it at a canter. Have we beaten an SPL team by four goals since? There is no doubt that he had the ability and vision to make players better if only they would listen. However, I am sad that the board took the side of those players who had no intention of staying with Hibs anyway to the detriment of those who have stuck with Hibs, namely Lewis Stevenson, who was man of the match in the League Cup final, has he played as well since? Having sung his praises I have to look at his weaknesses which surely where picking the wrong people to coach for him. In my view Tommy Craig wasn't the right man and evidence of that was brought to bare when he became caretaker manager and won nowt. He then went on to take Gareth Evans to Livingston and that failed too. So although his sentiment towards the game is admirable and in a perfect world probably would lead to attractive and successful football, and I can only say probably because there are just too many variables in football, his approach must be fundamentally flawed. However, I still believe he is capable of making players better if they are willing to follow his guidance and methods and I am sure that his tactics would be admirable in producing stylish attractive teams.

When your first targets are £2m players, is it really any wonder he didn't get them and had to get cheaper options?

[Hibbyradge]

However, I still believe he is capable of making players better if they are willing to follow his guidance and methods .

Maybe, but it's the manager's job to motivate the players to follow his methods.

People can be persuaded to do just about anything if they're handled properly.

[ahibby]

When your first targets are £2m players, is it really any wonder he didn't get them and had to get cheaper options?

Which £2m players are you referring to?

[J-C]

Which £2m players are you referring to?

Pretty sure someone in another thread, or maybe this one suggested he wanted Naismith, the board didn't sanction it and he went to Gers instead

[The Modfather]

Well, I'll turn that around - why would you take the side of one person against a delegation of players when you don't know what was happening? That makes no sense.

The assumption I make is that something must have been very wrong for the players to do what they did.

It hadn't happened before and it hasn't happened since, either collectively or individually.

I also assume that the manager was aware that the players weren't happy in the weeks leading up to the meeting with Petrie. It was his job to resolve that unhappiness. If he wasn't aware, he should have been.

Whether he was trying to bring in change too quickly or just that his methods were universally unpopular, he should have managed it better.

The fact that Collins, despite his fine words, is now out of management totally, also suggests he's not cut out for it.

A fair question, my assumption is that Collins came in with higher standards (both fitness wise and where he wanted/thought we should be) than those in charge of the club (I'll not go into that and take the conversation of topic, there's enough separate threads on that subject) who were happy just drifting along.

They say great players sometimes find it difficult to understand when lesser players can't do what they did naturally, there may have been an element of that, as well as a degree of arrogance etc, I'm happy to concede it's very plausible. The fact the youngsters bought into Collins suggests to me that the unhappiness was more to do with players who were set in their way, had it easy at their work, could do the minimum required and live the, relative, playboy lifestyle. That is the way it had always been/been for a long time, so when someone comes in who expects, as a minimum, fitness and professionalism the players threw the toys out the pram.

As "Player power" won out in the end, the culture escalated and successive squads proceeded to drag what the minimum effort (in all aspects of them being a footballer, not just specifically on the park every Saturday) required to get by further and further down. Until it got to the point where we needed a mid season fitness camp, and the chairman had to come out and promise a new culture.

To my mind, Collins was the right person to implement the "good work behind the scenes" that Fenlon is reportedly doing. That Collins was in effect the trailblazer in bringing the rotten culture to the surface and it subsequently having to be addressed. I'd take Collins back in a heartbeat (with the correct right hand man who has the scouting contacts to help the player recruitment) to finish the job he started in dragging us kicking and screaming into the modern world in line with the rest of the European leagues.

That's my assumptions, neither right nor wrong, merely my take on it all. :thumbsup:

[ahibby]

Maybe, but it's the manager's job to motivate the players to follow his methods.

People can be persuaded to do just about anything if they're handled properly.

You can lead a horse to water etc, but the players in question had little ambition. One went to Hearts for big money which shows his ambition was to get more money without having to work any harder or become better to get it, money for old rope, and another disappeared into obscurity in England. If Collins had a team of Lewis Stevensons, Lewis by the way had no complaints about JCs methods and became better for it, then the outcome would have been different. Some players were motivated by it because they didn't complain. Others where simply just not up to the challenge, lacked belief and work ethic and were at the wrong time in their career and that is the only reasonable excuse they could have had.

[ahibby]

A fair question, my assumption is that Collins came in with higher standards (both fitness wise and where he wanted/thought we should be) than those in charge of the club (I'll not go into that and take the conversation of topic, there's enough separate threads on that subject) who were happy just drifting along.

They say great players sometimes find it difficult to understand when lesser players can't do what they did naturally, there may have been an element of that, as well as a degree of arrogance etc, I'm happy to concede it's very plausible. The fact the youngsters bought into Collins suggests to me that the unhappiness was more to do with players who were set in their way, had it easy at their work, could do the minimum required and live the, relative, playboy lifestyle. That is the way it had always been/been for a long time, so when someone comes in who expects, as a minimum, fitness and professionalism the players threw the toys out the pram.

As "Player power" won out in the end, the culture escalated and successive squads proceeded to drag what the minimum effort (in all aspects of them being a footballer, not just specifically on the park every Saturday) required to get by further and further down. Until it got to the point where we needed a mid season fitness camp, and the chairman had to come out and promise a new culture.

To my mind, Collins was the right person to implement the "good work behind the scenes" that Fenlon is reportedly doing. That Collins was in effect the trailblazer in bringing the rotten culture to the surface and it subsequently having to be addressed. I'd take Collins back in a heartbeat (with the correct right hand man who has the scouting contacts to help the player recruitment) to finish the job he started in dragging us kicking and screaming into the modern world in line with the rest of the European leagues.

That's my assumptions, neither right nor wrong, merely may take on it all. :thumbsup:


I would not disagree with you.

[J-C]

A fair question, my assumption is that Collins came in with higher standards (both fitness wise and where he wanted/thought we should be) than those in charge of the club (I'll not go into that and take the conversation of topic, there's enough separate threads on that subject) who were happy just drifting along.

They say great players sometimes find it difficult to understand when lesser players can't do what they did naturally, there may have been an element of that, as well as a degree of arrogance etc, I'm happy to concede it's very plausible. The fact the youngsters bought into Collins suggests to me that the unhappiness was more to do with players who were set in their way, had it easy at their work, could do the minimum required and live the, relative, playboy lifestyle. That is the way it had always been/been for a long time, so when someone comes in who expects, as a minimum, fitness and professionalism the players threw the toys out the pram.

As "Player power" won out in the end, the culture escalated and successive squads proceeded to drag what the minimum effort (in all aspects of them being a footballer, not just specifically on the park every Saturday) required to get by further and further down. Until it got to the point where we needed a mid season fitness camp, and the chairman had to come out and promise a new culture.

To my mind, Collins was the right person to implement the "good work behind the scenes" that Fenlon is reportedly doing. That Collins was in effect the trailblazer in bringing the rotten culture to the surface and it subsequently having to be addressed. I'd take Collins back in a heartbeat (with the correct right hand man who has the scouting contacts to help the player recruitment) to finish the job he started in dragging us kicking and screaming into the modern world in line with the rest of the European leagues.

That's my assumptions, neither right nor wrong, merely may take on it all. :thumbsup:

Great post :top marks

[J-C]

You can lead a horse to water etc, but the players in question had little ambition. One went to Hearts for big money which shows his ambition was to get more money without having to work any harder or become better to get it, money for old rope, and another disappeared into obscurity in England. If Collins had a team of Lewis Stevensons, Lewis by the way had no complaints about JCs methods and became better for it, then the outcome would have been different. Some players were motivated by it because they didn't complain. Others where simply just not up to the challenge, lacked belief and work ethic and were at the wrong time in their career and that is the only reasonable excuse they could have had.

:top marks

[TowerHibs]

glad a lot of the fans arent like you cause we wouldnt have a team left to support, well support you ever more ( as long as your half decent):rolleyes:
im fully aware that i am not an uber fan however i would argue that there are a lot of fans like me, look at our attendances. how our club has been run and how we play makes forking out at least £25 to be bored every week unjustifyable (is that a word?)

i agree thats its not what a "true" supporter should be like but following the club blindly when i disagree with so much of what has happened is also wrong. its sad but i think there are thousands with similar feelings

[Keith_M]

Collins out - Fenlon in.

[Hibbyradge]

You can lead a horse to water etc, but the players in question had little ambition. One went to Hearts for big money which shows his ambition was to get more money without having to work any harder or become better to get it, money for old rope, and another disappeared into obscurity in England. If Collins had a team of Lewis Stevensons, Lewis by the way had no complaints about JCs methods and became better for it, then the outcome would have been different. Some players were motivated by it because they didn't complain. Others where simply just not up to the challenge, lacked belief and work ethic and were at the wrong time in their career and that is the only reasonable excuse they could have had.

The team that won the league cup included Stephen Fletcher, David Murphy, Scott Brown, Kevin Thomson, Guillaume Beuzelin, Steven Whittaker and Merouane Zemmama. As a matter of interest, Michael Stewart didn't get a game.

Regardless of that, the manager's job is to motivate the players he has at his disposal regardless of their perceived levels of ambition.

The manager should make them ambitious and driven.

Collins failed to do that.

In fact, he demotivated them to the extent that they felt the need to complain to his boss.

Edit: The players apologised publicly for going to Petrie and Collins accepted it and promised to move on. Instead, he quit.

[Onceinawhile]

I wouldn't blame either Tommy Craig or JC for the signings then. JC made it clear to all who would listen that he was asked to make lists of players he wanted for positions. Starting at 1st choice down to 5th choice. So he would name five players for one position he wanted to fill. He is on record as having said that he never got first or second choices, he did get third and fourth and even on one occasion fifth choice. That wasn't down to him or TC but the board. I am sure there are those who will nit pick about that. As some have pointed out on here his final season was abysmal, but he didn't have East Mains and look at the standard of football now that we do have it. He won the league cup and finished in the top six in the same season, with a quality of football that ensured we didn't just win the league cup but won it at a canter. Have we beaten an SPL team by four goals since? There is no doubt that he had the ability and vision to make players better if only they would listen. However, I am sad that the board took the side of those players who had no intention of staying with Hibs anyway to the detriment of those who have stuck with Hibs, namely Lewis Stevenson, who was man of the match in the League Cup final, has he played as well since? Having sung his praises I have to look at his weaknesses which surely where picking the wrong people to coach for him. In my view Tommy Craig wasn't the right man and evidence of that was brought to bare when he became caretaker manager and won nowt. He then went on to take Gareth Evans to Livingston and that failed too. So although his sentiment towards the game is admirable and in a perfect world probably would lead to attractive and successful football, and I can only say probably because there are just too many variables in football, his approach must be fundamentally flawed. However, I still believe he is capable of making players better if they are willing to follow his guidance and methods and I am sure that his tactics would be admirable in producing stylish attractive teams.

Beat motherwell 4-0 away from home last aeason.

[Jonnyboy]

im fully aware that i am not an uber fan however i would argue that there are a lot of fans like me, look at our attendances. how our club has been run and how we play makes forking out at least £25 to be bored every week unjustifyable (is that a word?)

i agree thats its not what a "true" supporter should be like but following the club blindly when i disagree with so much of what has happened is also wrong. its sad but i think there are thousands with similar feelings

I understand your hurt. It's not easy watching Hibs just now.

What ticks me off though is the fact that one of the ways we can improve is to sign better players. That has an obvious financial implication. Staying away deprives the club of funds and punishes the supporter who wont go to support the team. For those stay away fans to then come on here and tell us all that those who still go are settling for the poor football on display. In a way, that's pretty insulting to those of us who choose to stay with the team, regardless of the fare on offer.

It's a great pity that you and many like you are sick of paying good money to watch poor players. Like I said, I understand and I know it's not easy.

It's a conundrum

BTW, unjustifiable is indeed a word :greengrin

[Kaiser1962]

You can lead a horse to water etc, but the players in question had little ambition. One went to Hearts for big money which shows his ambition was to get more money without having to work any harder or become better to get it, money for old rope, and another disappeared into obscurity in England. If Collins had a team of Lewis Stevensons, Lewis by the way had no complaints about JCs methods and became better for it, then the outcome would have been different. Some players were motivated by it because they didn't complain. Others where simply just not up to the challenge, lacked belief and work ethic and were at the wrong time in their career and that is the only reasonable excuse they could have had.

Which player went to Hearts for big money?

edit; if it was Michael Stewart we chased him.

They were up to the challenge when they beat Killie 5-1.

[Kaiser1962]

Statistics for 2007-08 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Hibernian_F.C._season) Season

The ten games undefeated were final game of 2006-7 against Celtic plus first nine of the season above.

Which was the first game he won after the Killie cup final.

Browns last game for Hibs (he scored) and Riordan scored for Celtic who had made a number of changes, only three of Celtic's starting eleven started the Cup Final against Dunfermline a week later.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I'm not so sure the phrase "following A team blindly" is helpful and wonder just exactly when this term surfaced.

Like others I can only express my personal opinion and having been through the darkest days of the Mercer takeover I just could not foresee not doing what I can to support the team where financially possible. Perhaps I'm lucky in the sense the worst years in recent times coincided when I could not attend due to family commitments and financial constraints. I know however that there comes a time when everyone has had their fill...

In a throwaway society has "Stickability" become more illusive?

[cmcd]

Very harsh to say only one of them is a football manager. I have more respect for the guy that produced our best ever performance at Hampden obviously than others.
Collins team played well in the cup final but best ever performance at Hampden NO I would say Eddie Turnbulls side of 1972 put in a better performance against a very good Celtic side

[blackpoolhibs]

Collins team played well in the cup final but best ever performance at Hampden NO I would say Eddie Turnbulls side of 1972 put in a better performance against a very good Celtic side

To be fair to Collins, we did play very well that day. I have been at all 3 of our League cup wins, and maybe because its the most recent, its been the best one.

I wish we had this argument much more often. :greengrin

[jacomo]

Said it before and will say it again, would happily give JC complete control of the football club to reshape it top to bottom.

I'm with you.

[jacomo]

The team that won the league cup included Stephen Fletcher, David Murphy, Scott Brown, Kevin Thomson, Guillaume Beuzelin, Steven Whittaker and Merouane Zemmama. As a matter of interest, Michael Stewart didn't get a game.

Regardless of that, the manager's job is to motivate the players he has at his disposal regardless of their perceived levels of ambition.

The manager should make them ambitious and driven.

Collins failed to do that.

In fact, he demotivated them to the extent that they felt the need to complain to his boss.

Edit: The players apologised publicly for going to Petrie and Collins accepted it and promised to move on. Instead, he quit.

Disagree. Hibs played well at times at the beginning of 2007/8 season. JC could certainly get a performance out of them.

Undoubtedly though the new signings weren't great and then he resigned rather than staying to turn it around. Never thought TC was up to much but Collins had to make sure he had the right team around him.

[Kaiser1962]

To be fair to Collins, we did play very well that day. I have been at all 3 of our League cup wins, and maybe because its the most recent, its been the best one.

I wish we had this argument much more often. :greengrin

We did play well in the Killie match but the same starting eleven failed to see off Dunfermline four weeks later. Collins made one change for the replay (Gray in for Fletcher).

[blackpoolhibs]

We did play well in the Killie match but the same starting eleven failed to see off Dunfermline four weeks later. Collins made one change for the replay (Gray in for Fletcher).


Another black day in the history of Hibs. :boo hoo:

[greenpaper55]

Another black day in the history of Hibs. :boo hoo:

Aye ,the wheels had come off by then but was that the season we lost Killen to injury for a long spell ?, i always thought he added a wee bit of class and gave us another option with his height. Collins biggest problem for me was he thought he could pluck players out of the French Div 2 and turn them into SPL players overnight which clearly failed, he was at ER for just over a year and if he had stayed it surely could not be any worse than some of the stuff we have had to endure over the last few years.

[blackpoolhibs]

Aye ,the wheels had come off by then but was that the season we lost Killen to injury for a long spell ?, i always thought he added a wee bit of class and gave us another option with his height. Collins biggest problem for me was he thought he could pluck players out of the French Div 2 and turn them into SPL players overnight which clearly failed, he was at ER for just over a year and if he had stayed it surely could not be any worse than some of the stuff we have had to endure over the last few years.

Maybe aye maybe naw, what will not change is HE decided to leave. He was not pushed or given any ultimatum to get better results, he just walked.

All managers have problems at their clubs, whether its at the top or the bottom. Walking away from them problems in my opinion is a sign of weakness, and in Collins case a sign he does not need the hassle.

I have had the opinion, rightly or wrongly that he's far too rich to need the problems football clubs throw up, and its so much easier for him to walk away from them.

Add that to his inability to accept some players need a cuddle and others need a boot up the arse, and my opinion is he's much better as a pundit than he'd ever be as a manager.

[The Harp Awakes]

Maybe aye maybe naw, what will not change is HE decided to leave. He was not pushed or given any ultimatum to get better results, he just walked.

All managers have problems at their clubs, whether its at the top or the bottom. Walking away from them problems in my opinion is a sign of weakness, and in Collins case a sign he does not need the hassle.

I have had the opinion, rightly or wrongly that he's far too rich to need the problems football clubs throw up, and its so much easier for him to walk away from them.

Add that to his inability to accept some players need a cuddle and others need a boot up the arse, and my opinion is he's much better as a pundit than he'd ever be as a manager.

Or you could take the view that walking was a sign of desperation that the Chairman didn't share his vision and ambition for the Club.

[Hibbyradge]

Or you could take the view that walking was a sign of desperation that the Chairman didn't share his vision and ambition for the Club.

He has also walked away from football management entirely.

[blackpoolhibs]

Or you could take the view that walking was a sign of desperation that the Chairman didn't share his vision and ambition for the Club.

Yes you could say that, although how many managers have we had recently who wanted to sign £2m players and thought it unreasonable we never signed them? (Naysmith)

Or went after £1m or was it £1.5m player Barry Robson, and never signed him either, i suppose that was unreasonable too?

Maybe to prove that point he signed Brian Kerr instead? :dunno:

[Keith_M]

Which was the first game he won after the Killie cup final.

Browns last game for Hibs (he scored) and Riordan scored for Celtic who had made a number of changes, only three of Celtic's starting eleven started the Cup Final against Dunfermline a week later.


I'm not sure if I'm getting your point, so apologies if not....

One game doesn't nullify the run of matches udefeated. We had ten league games without defeat, 9 of them at the beginning of the following season. My point in mentioning that was that the general consensus in the thread was that Collins time was a complete disaster after the Cup Final. Evidently, that is not completely the case, if having a run of the first 9 league games without defeat and being top of the league at the end of it is anything to go by.

I also mentioned that the average home attendance for all league games where Collins was still manager in that season was 14,690, to show that a lot of people were obviously still enjoying the style of football overall. I'm sure we would all love to see crowds like that again.


FWIW, I have never thought of Collins as the perfect manager and already mentioned his deficiencies. I actually think a combination of Fenlon (signings, man-management) and Collins (formation and general tactics) would make a fairly good management team :wink:

[The Modfather]

Yes you could say that, although how many managers have we had recently who wanted to sign £2m players and thought it unreasonable we never signed them? (Naysmith)

Or went after £1m or was it £1.5m player Barry Robson, and never signed him either, i suppose that was unreasonable too?

Maybe to prove that point he signed Brian Kerr instead? :dunno:

You can't just ignore the context to suit your point. As an example, Sell Brown for 4.5m and replace with genuine quality like Bary Robson for 1-1.5m. Seems very reasonable to me. Make a massive profit that is not to the detriment of the team.

[J-C]

You can't just ignore the context to suit your point. As an example, Sell Brown for 4.5m and replace with genuine quality like Bary Robson for 1-1.5m. Seems very reasonable to me. Make a massive profit that is not to the detriment of the team.

I can understand and fully respect Collins for walking away, Hibs had just made £8 million on Brown, Whittaker and Thomson, and was given a pittance in monies for future transfers, instead of re investing, our chairman sees this as a windfall and the rest is history, we've went downhill since, poor teams and poor managers and still with a penny pinching chairman taking us nowhere.

[Hibbyradge]

I can understand and fully respect Collins for walking away, Hibs had just made £8 million on Brown, Whittaker and Thomson, and was given a pittance in monies for future transfers, instead of re investing, our chairman sees this as a windfall and the rest is history, we've went downhill since, poor teams and poor managers and still with a penny pinching chairman taking us nowhere.

Where do people think the money for those players went?

[marinello59]

Where do people think the money for those players went?

It's all under Rod Petrie's bed. All of it.

[dangermouse]

The team that won the league cup included Stephen Fletcher, David Murphy, Scott Brown, Kevin Thomson, Guillaume Beuzelin, Steven Whittaker and Merouane Zemmama. As a matter of interest, Michael Stewart didn't get a game.

Regardless of that, the manager's job is to motivate the players he has at his disposal regardless of their perceived levels of ambition.

The manager should make them ambitious and driven.

Collins failed to do that.

In fact, he demotivated them to the extent that they felt the need to complain to his boss.

Edit: The players apologised publicly for going to Petrie and Collins accepted it and promised to move on. Instead, he quit.

A pedant writes; Thomson may have a League Cup Winners medal (maybe even more than one) but he never got it/them playing for Hibs:greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

It's all under Rod Petrie's bed. All of it.

:agree: Proof!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Xa8cgMehYk/UUoM6b81MYI/AAAAAAAAAP0/0tulzpsFcdU/s1600/Money+under+teh+bed.jpg

[Hibbyradge]

A pedant writes; Thomson may have a League Cup Winners medal (maybe even more than one) but he never got it/them playing for Hibs:greengrin

Of course! How remiss of me.

Shelton Martis did though. :wink:

[Keith_M]

Where do people think the money for those players went?


Petrie's underground lair below East Mains.

If he ever gets money from another Golden Generation, he'll have enough to finish the rocket launch pad currently being built secretly below Arthur's Seat, to send rockets into space and eat up US and Russian space ships.

He'll then control all the satellites around earth and his plan for world domination will be complete.



11139

[J-C]

Where do people think the money for those players went?

Instead of answering in a cryptic manner, why don't you enlighten us by telling us where the money went, it sure as hell didn't go back into the playing squad that's for sure.

[Keith_M]

Instead of answering in a cryptic manner, why don't you enlighten us by telling us where the money went, it sure as hell didn't go back into the playing squad that's for sure.


Paying off debts.

[Hibbyradge]

He'll then control all the satellites around earth and his plan for world domination will be complete.



11139

Ah ha! At last we discover the fabled 5 year plan!

[Peevemor]

Paying off debts.

... including the full purchase and development costs for East Mains.

[JimBHibees]

Instead of answering in a cryptic manner, why don't you enlighten us by telling us where the money went, it sure as hell didn't go back into the playing squad that's for sure.

Training ground, new East, existing debt, players? Cant imagine AOB who I am pretty sure we paid money for :rolleyes: Maka, Kerr etc werent that cheap.

[Hibbyradge]

Instead of answering in a cryptic manner, why don't you enlighten us by telling us where the money went, it sure as hell didn't go back into the playing squad that's for sure.

I didn't answer in a cryptic manner.

I asked a question.

Why don't you tell me where you think the money went, if the chairman is "penny pinching" and saw the transfer fees as "a windfall"?

[J-C]

So we clear a bit of debt, get a training ground which has yet to be worthwhile, then buy players who we find out are our 4th or 5th choice options, no surprised we are where we are.

[Hibbyradge]

So we clear a bit of debt, get a training ground which has yet to be worthwhile, then buy players who we find out are our 4th or 5th choice options, no surprised we are where we are.

The debt was accrued by paying for players like Sauzee, Latapy, Zitelli etc.

[Peevemor]

So we clear a bit of debt, get a training ground which has yet to be worthwhile, then buy players who we find out are our 4th or 5th choice options, no surprised we are where we are.

How many of Collins' 1st, 2nd or even 3rd choices were realistic targets? 11 players on £5k per week net would account for almost the entire wage budget (including non playing staff).

[J-C]

I didn't answer in a cryptic manner.

I asked a question.

Why don't you tell me where you think the money went, if the chairman is "penny pinching" and saw the transfer fees as "a windfall"?

TBH it's a question that a lot have asked since.

It's been well documented that we've lost out on certain players due to Petrie's penny pinching.

Training ground could have been payed up like a mortgage, we didn't have to pay for it all at once, I'm assuming that's what we did with the £8m in transfers of the 3 players. The point being Collins felt the monies brought in were not re invested back into the squad, something which a lot of the supporters have said since. We seem to sell for £2-4m, then buy for £50K, good players go and crap comes in.

We also lost Murphy in January 2008 for £1.5M and replaced him with Zarabi, enough said.

[J-C]

As an aside, I was looking at the squad for the 2007 cup final and notice Stevenson was at left midfield (natural position) in front of Murphy, IIRC he was MOM that day, funny playing in his natural position and not as a defender which he seems to be seen as today.

[blackpoolhibs]

You can't just ignore the context to suit your point. As an example, Sell Brown for 4.5m and replace with genuine quality like Bary Robson for 1-1.5m. Seems very reasonable to me. Make a massive profit that is not to the detriment of the team.

Then you don't understand just how much it costs to buy and pay that type of players wages?

Look over the city to see just where paying players £12k-£17k a week has got them, with similar crowds we'd expect to get if doing the same.

Unless you think buying just one of those players i mentioned was going to do it all himself, and replace Brown Thomson Whittaker and Murphy and the likes? :confused:

[J-C]

How many of Collins' 1st, 2nd or even 3rd choices were realistic targets? 11 players on £5k per week net would account for almost the entire wage budget (including non playing staff).


Don't think Collins wanted 11 players on £5k, just players to replace the ones we sold.

[Hibbyradge]

Don't think Collins wanted 11 players on £5k, just players to replace the ones we sold.

How are we supposed to do that with nearly £20m of debt and a TV deal worth a fraction of what it had been?

[blackpoolhibs]

As an aside, I was looking at the squad for the 2007 cup final and notice Stevenson was at left midfield (natural position) in front of Murphy, IIRC he was MOM that day, funny playing in his natural position and not as a defender which he seems to be seen as today.

He was Ian McCalls man of the match, there were at least 6 or even 7 players better than Stevenson that day, Fletcher, Benji, Brown Boozy Whittaker Murphy and Jones were better, and who could forget Andy McNeils superb save that kept us in the game? :wink:

Stevenson was good, but come on use your own eyes? McCall was looking to be seen as more knowledgeable than the average football fan, he picked someone young and new to the team IMO.

[Peevemor]

Don't think Collins wanted 11 players on £5k, just players to replace the ones we sold.

Possibly, but I'm taking that as an average. Collins' first choice players would likely have cost in excess of £5k per week.

[blackpoolhibs]

Don't think Collins wanted 11 players on £5k, just players to replace the ones we sold.

Who were the players he wanted to replace them with, and what kind of money would it have cost to A replace them and B pay them? :confused:

[ChilliEater]

Scotsman article from September 2003, about a possible groundshare with Hearts:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/hibs-survival-is-my-desire-1-893074

The clubs decided to think the unthinkable given the burgeoning debts both are suffering - Hibs expect theirs to peak at between 16 million and 17m this season while Hearts are some 15m in the red - prompting the belief that moving in together while selling their respective grounds could be the answer.

Bloody penny pinchers :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

Scotsman article from September 2003, about a possible groundshare with Hearts:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/hibs-survival-is-my-desire-1-893074

The clubs decided to think the unthinkable given the burgeoning debts both are suffering - Hibs expect theirs to peak at between 16 million and 17m this season while Hearts are some 15m in the red - prompting the belief that moving in together while selling their respective grounds could be the answer.

Bloody penny pinchers :rolleyes:

Time for another thread, methinks. :wink:

[blackpoolhibs]

Scotsman article from September 2003, about a possible groundshare with Hearts:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/hibs-survival-is-my-desire-1-893074

The clubs decided to think the unthinkable given the burgeoning debts both are suffering - Hibs expect theirs to peak at between 16 million and 17m this season while Hearts are some 15m in the red - prompting the belief that moving in together while selling their respective grounds could be the answer.

Bloody penny pinchers :rolleyes:

SShhhhhhhhhhhhsh We just needed a few million pound players and that would all go away.

[J-C]

How are we supposed to do that with nearly £20m of debt and a TV deal worth a fraction of what it had been?

He replaced Brown, Whittaker, Thomson, Murphy with.....................Kerr(free), Gathuessi(free), Zarabi(undisclosed)and Rankin(£110k), not exactly raiding the bank with their wages I'd have thought.

Add to that Canning (free) Murray (free) Morais (free) Donaldson (free) Only real money we spent was £200K for AOB, who's that good he's now playing at Hungerford Town in the Southern League, Makalamby (£100K) and Nish (£100k)

So by looking at those list of players and money spent, I think the 3rd, 4th and 5th option players are definitely a no go.

[J-C]

Who were the players he wanted to replace them with, and what kind of money would it have cost to A replace them and B pay them? :confused:

We'll never know G because the ones we did get we're truly awful signing, AOB, Gathuessi and Zarabi :confused::confused:

[blackpoolhibs]

He replaced Brown, Whittaker, Thomson, Murphy with.....................Kerr(free), Gathuessi(free), Zarabi(undisclosed)and Rankin(£110k), not exactly raiding the bank with their wages I'd have thought.

Add to that Canning (free) Murray (free) Morais (free) Donaldson (free) Only real money we spent was £200K for AOB, who's that good he's now playing at Hungerford Town in the Southern League, Makalamby (£100K) and Nish (£100k)

So by looking at those list of players and money spent, I think the 3rd, 4th and 5th option players are definitely a no go.


We'll never know G because the ones we did get we're truly awful signing, AOB, Gathuessi and Zarabi :confused::confused:

Mowbray managed to sign Sheils Jones Murphy Killen Stewart Zemmama Benji in the same bargain bucket Collins went to?

Can you spot the difference?

[scoopyboy]

He replaced Brown, Whittaker, Thomson, Murphy with.....................Kerr(free), Gathuessi(free), Zarabi(undisclosed)and Rankin(£110k), not exactly raiding the bank with their wages I'd have thought.

Add to that Canning (free) Murray (free) Morais (free) Donaldson (free) Only real money we spent was £200K for AOB, who's that good he's now playing at Hungerford Town in the Southern League, Makalamby (£100K) and Nish (£100k)

So by looking at those list of players and money spent, I think the 3rd, 4th and 5th option players are definitely a no go.

Were Zarabi and Rankin not Mixu signings?

[Stevie Reid]

Were Zarabi and Rankin not Mixu signings?

:agree:

Martin Canning, Nish and Murray were also.

[J-C]

Were Zarabi and Rankin not Mixu signings?

Yea forgot about that, Mixu's ones, TBH they were simply awful signings that year, went from one of the best squads in 2007 to absolute honking in 2008, whether it was Mixu or Collins, they left us with pants.

[scoopyboy]

Yea forgot about that, Mixu's ones, TBH they were simply awful signings that year, went from one of the best squads in 2007 to absolute honking in 2008, whether it was Mixu or Collins, they left us with pants.

Totally agree.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Were Zarabi and Rankin not Mixu signings?

The last 2 were Petrie signings. He had tried to force them on JC and as soon as he was gone they were in talks waiting on Mixu agreeing with Petrie's decision.

[jacomo]

The last 2 were Petrie signings. He had tried to force them on JC and as soon as he was gone they were in talks waiting on Mixu agreeing with Petrie's decision.

Same w Nish? Wasn't that signing held up a week or two because Mixu said he wanted to go see him first?

[Danderhall Hibs]

Same w Nish? Wasn't that signing held up a week or two because Mixu said he wanted to go see him first?

I meant Nish and Rankin - could've sworn his name was in the post I quoted. I think Mixu let him get cup tied so he could go watch him but Petrie already had him (and Rankin) lined up.

[Kaiser1962]

I'm not sure if I'm getting your point, so apologies if not....



My point was really the unpredictability and lack of consistency of the players at our level, if they could do the business week in week out they wouldnt be at a club like ours, at least not for long. The cup final team gave most of us the biggest high for 16 years and some of the young uns their best day supporting Hibs.

But same team, same manager and same venue a matter of weeks apart took us from ecstasy to agony when we beat Killie, who finished above us in the league to defeat over two matches from the team that was subsequently relegated.

To going nine without a win towards then end the season following such a high to nine without loss at the start of the next following a number of players being sold/moving on/being moved on. Go figure.

FWIW I think AOB was a No 1 target.

[Kaiser1962]

I meant Nish and Rankin - could've sworn his name was in the post I quoted. I think Mixu let him get cup tied so he could go watch him but Petrie already had him (and Rankin) lined up.

So why bother to let Mixu even have a look if he "already had him"? If he already had him he couldnt have played for Killie and been cup tied.

[Danderhall Hibs]

So why bother to let Mixu even have a look if he "already had him"? If he already had him he couldnt have played for Killie and been cup tied.

That would be mixu trying to assert authority. I'm pretty sure Nish playing for 60 minutes against Clyde or whoever told him nothing.

[greenpaper55]

That would be mixu trying to assert authority. I'm pretty sure Nish playing for 60 minutes against Clyde or whoever told him nothing.

Think you are right, everybody on here knew that Nish was coming well before Mixu was appointed !, very strange.

[TheFamous1875]

http://www.veoh.com/iphone/#_Watch/v320676n2cG2NH2

Always thought this video was a good insight into how John Collins approached management whilst at Hibs. One thing I found disappointing regarding his signings was that given the contacts he must have had on the continent, I wonder why he was unable to utilise them as successfully as GJP managed to use his?

[lapsedhibee]

http://www.veoh.com/iphone/#_Watch/v320676n2cG2NH2

Always thought this video was a good insight into how John Collins approached management whilst at Hibs. One thing I found disappointing regarding his signings was that given the contacts he must have had on the continent, I wonder why he was unable to utilise them as successfully as GJP managed to use his?

Shirley not a fair comparison, given the vast amount of lolly GJP had at his disposal to tempt his contacts to come here?

[GlenrothesHibee]

Gjp?

[lapsedhibee]

Gjp?

Ginger jolly person (McLeish)

[Scooter]

It have Collins back. But I would want to have an experienced assistant like we have now. Then allow him the time to change it, anyone not happy with it can go and the manager backed

[blackpoolhibs]

It have Collins back. But I would want to have an experienced assistant like we have now. Then allow him the time to change it, anyone not happy with it can go and the manager backed

What has changed from when he left to how things are now? What makes you think he'd suddenly be any different and his signings would be any better than the dummies he signed for us when he was last in charge? :confused:

[lapsedhibee]

What has changed from when he left to how things are now? What makes you think he'd suddenly be any different and his signings would be any better than the dummies he signed for us when he was last in charge? :confused:

Suddenly? 'twas many years ago now that he left. He's definitely older, and he could be wiser.

[blackpoolhibs]

Suddenly? 'twas many years ago now that he left. He's definitely older, and he could be wiser.

Yes it was. he is definitely older and who knows if he's wiser, i certainly dont know the answer to that.

[--------]

Guesswork at best, each and every manager has had more to spend than most of our competitors, but Petrie has somehow managed to appoint men who are just not very good at all. Even you have said we have the players?

Personally i disagree, i dont think we have the players, i think we have a terrible defence and i'm not convinced we have the forwards either to score enough, and this is down to who the manager gets in, he has more funds than everyone else bar Celtic, how could this possibly be Petries fault other than who he appointed?


Like I said, BH - most or all of what I said was surmise (which is just a posh word for guesswork!).

I think that with the players we have right now we should be playing more attractive football and more consistently.

I think that most managers would have done far more to establish as solid settled back four that PF has done - I've always believed in building a team from the back and he hasn't done so.

Alan Maybury's the best of our RBs and he's in his mid-30s.

I'm far from convinced by Nelson (I've seen milk turn faster).

McPake's fitness is now extremely questionable to say the least - they seek him here, they seek him there, they find him on the treatment table. At least he's company for Clancy on trips to the infirmary ...

Paul Hanlon I think gets a worse press on here than he deserves given what goes on around him but again not convincing.

Lewis Stevenson at least works hard, maybe a reasonable stopgap at LB but not a RB by any stretch of the imagination.

McGivern I really don't see as the answer either at LB or CB (just don't reckon him); and the rest are effectively untried.

(I'm trying to be charitable and positive here, mind. But neither the individual players nor the way they're "organised" instill confidence in this spectator.)

Bottom line it comes back to the question - have Hibs just been terminally unlucky in finding a succession of gash managers who all just happened to interview really well?

Or is it possible that the guy who appointed them hasn't a clue?

I'm inclined to quote Lady Bracknell here - "To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, might be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both seems like carelessness."

One duff appointment - even two - might be understandable. But FIVE? Collins, Paatelainen, Hughes, Calderwood, Fenlon - all incompetent, or is there a deeper reason for our serial horribleness in the way Petrie (mainly) and Farmer run the club?

[GlenrothesHibee]

Like I said, BH - most or all of what I said was surmise (which is just a posh word for guesswork!). I think that with the players we have right now we should be playing more attractive football and more consistently.I think that most managers would have done far more to establish as solid settled back four that PF has done - I've always believed in building a team from the back and he hasn't done so. Alan Maybury's the best of our RBs and he's in his mid-30s.I'm far from convinced by Nelson (I've seen milk turn faster).McPake's fitness is now extremely questionable to say the least - they seek him here, they seek him there, they find him on the treatment table. At least he's company for Clancy on trips to the infirmary ...Paul Hanlon I think gets a worse press on here than he deserves given what goes on around him but again not convincing.Lewis Stevenson at least works hard, maybe a reasonable stopgap at LB but not a RB by any stretch of the imagination.McGivern I really don't see as the answer either at LB or CB (just don't reckon him); and the rest are effectively untried.(I'm trying to be charitable and positive here, mind. But neither the individual players nor the way they're "organised" instill confidence in this spectator.)Bottom line it comes back to the question - have Hibs just been terminally unlucky in finding a succession of gash managers who all just happened to interview really well? Or is it possible that the guy who appointed them hasn't a clue?I'm inclined to quote Lady Bracknell here - "To lose one parent, Mr Worthing, might be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both seems like carelessness."One duff appointment - even two - might be understandable. But FIVE? Collins, Paatelainen, Hughes, Calderwood, Fenlon - all incompetent, or is there a deeper reason for our serial horribleness in the way Petrie (mainly) and Farmer run the club?Its a difficult one to judge as on paper they looked good choicesCollins - Talks a very good game and had the same philosophy on the game as Mowbray. Should have been a smooth transaction but instead it was the start of the decline into mediocrity. Was a risk giving him his first managerial job but it worked with TM. Unfortunately lightning didn't strike twiceMixu - Did well with Cowdenbeath and like TM and JC, liked football played the right way. Deserved a chance at Hibs and was quite a popular appointment at the time. Didn't work out with us but did well at Killie and now an international managerYogi - Again a popular choice. Did very well with no resources at Falkirk. Signed some good players and had us playing some good stuff but unfortunately he didn't have a plan B. Couldn't get us out of our slump and ultimately paid with his job.Calderwood - The only one i was perplexed about. Out the game with not many people having much good to say about him. Terrible appointment for many reasons and the only one i blamee Petrie for.Fenlon - Not a Petrie appointment. He left it to other board members and rightly so. Unfortunately for Pat he has had the hardest job of the last 5 because of his predecessor. He took control of a group of players heading to division one with zero confidence and kept us up with the help of a few loan signings. Again he had to rebuild and gave us some stability which we hadn't had in years. We now have a strong squad with good players at this level. Some of his tactics are suspect but we are in a better place now than we have been in a long long time. If Pats contract is not renewed he will at least have left a solid platform for the next guy.

[GlenrothesHibee]

Its a difficult one to judge as on paper they looked good choicesCollins - Talks a very good game and had the same philosophy on the game as Mowbray. Should have been a smooth transaction but instead it was the start of the decline into mediocrity. Was a risk giving him his first managerial job but it worked with TM. Unfortunately lightning didn't strike twiceMixu - Did well with Cowdenbeath and like TM and JC, liked football played the right way. Deserved a chance at Hibs and was quite a popular appointment at the time. Didn't work out with us but did well at Killie and now an international managerYogi - Again a popular choice. Did very well with no resources at Falkirk. Signed some good players and had us playing some good stuff but unfortunately he didn't have a plan B. Couldn't get us out of our slump and ultimately paid with his job.Calderwood - The only one i was perplexed about. Out the game with not many people having much good to say about him. Terrible appointment for many reasons and the only one i blamee Petrie for.Fenlon - Not a Petrie appointment. He left it to other board members and rightly so. Unfortunately for Pat he has had the hardest job of the last 5 because of his predecessor. He took control of a group of players heading to division one with zero confidence and kept us up with the help of a few loan signings. Again he had to rebuild and gave us some stability which we hadn't had in years. We now have a strong squad with good players at this level. Some of his tactics are suspect but we are in a better place now than we have been in a long long time. If Pats contract is not renewed he will at least have left a solid platform for the next guy.Apologies this was not how the post looked when i typed it. Bloody phone

[RoslinInstHibby]

What has changed from when he left to how things are now? What makes you think he'd suddenly be any different and his signings would be any better than the dummies he signed for us when he was last in charge? :confused:

his playing style and attitude to the way professional athletes should be was spot on, pity his signings were naff.

Still reckon JC should be involved in the scotland setup, get him looking after youth development, teaching them the right habits at a young age

[--------]

Its a difficult one to judge as on paper they looked good choices

Collins - Talks a very good game and had the same philosophy on the game as Mowbray. Should have been a smooth transaction but instead it was the start of the decline into mediocrity. Was a risk giving him his first managerial job but it worked with TM. Unfortunately lightning didn't strike twiceMixu - Did well with Cowdenbeath and like TM and JC, liked football played the right way. Deserved a chance at Hibs and was quite a popular appointment at the time. Didn't work out with us but did well at Killie and now an international managerYogi - Again a popular choice. Did very well with no resources at Falkirk. Signed some good players and had us playing some good stuff but unfortunately he didn't have a plan B. Couldn't get us out of our slump and ultimately paid with his job.Calderwood - The only one i was perplexed about. Out the game with not many people having much good to say about him. Terrible appointment for many reasons and the only one i blamee Petrie for.Fenlon - Not a Petrie appointment. He left it to other board members and rightly so. Unfortunately for Pat he has had the hardest job of the last 5 because of his predecessor. He took control of a group of players heading to division one with zero confidence and kept us up with the help of a few loan signings. Again he had to rebuild and gave us some stability which we hadn't had in years. We now have a strong squad with good players at this level. Some of his tactics are suspect but we are in a better place now than we have been in a long long time. If Pats contract is not renewed he will at least have left a solid platform for the next guy.



I agree - on paper they did, I have to admit the only one I had doubts about was Calderwood, but even he had positives about him.

Which takes me back to my big question - are we somehow cursed with an instinctive propensity for signing managerial numpties, or is there something either in the club culture or in the way it's run that makes it well-nigh impossible for a manager to prosper at ER?

Or have we reached a point in time when we need to bite the bullet and let Pat Fenlon get on with the job and fulfill his contract because what Hibs need more than anything is a wee bit of stability and consistency.

I really REALLY don't like the idea of yet another descent into another round of musical chairs among the coaching and playing staff right now. ER's been the football managerial equivalent of Death Row the last five years.

[Speedway]

I can understand and fully respect Collins for walking away, Hibs had just made £8 million on Brown, Whittaker and Thomson, and was given a pittance in monies for future transfers, instead of re investing, our chairman sees this as a windfall and the rest is history, we've went downhill since, poor teams and poor managers and still with a penny pinching chairman taking us nowhere.

Not the whole £8m was sat as cleared funds when Collins needed to spend money. Collins reported spent £1.1m in total with the vast majority of that going on signing and transfer fees for AknOB and Crapalamby. Rod paid off the debt and still gave Collins a slice. Crapalamby had been courted since the previous transfer window.

The scared canary took years to shift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6ExCGQh55g


TBH it's a question that a lot have asked since.

It's been well documented that we've lost out on certain players due to Petrie's penny pinching.

Training ground could have been payed up like a mortgage, we didn't have to pay for it all at once, I'm assuming that's what we did with the £8m in transfers of the 3 players. The point being Collins felt the monies brought in were not re invested back into the squad, something which a lot of the supporters have said since. We seem to sell for £2-4m, then buy for £50K, good players go and crap comes in.

We also lost Murphy in January 2008 for £1.5M and replaced him with Zarabi, enough said.

And we spent more acquiring Zarabi than we did Murphy. Investment.


He replaced Brown, Whittaker, Thomson, Murphy with.....................Kerr(free), Gathuessi(free), Zarabi(undisclosed)and Rankin(£110k), not exactly raiding the bank with their wages I'd have thought.

Add to that Canning (free) Murray (free) Morais (free) Donaldson (free) Only real money we spent was £200K for AOB, who's that good he's now playing at Hungerford Town in the Southern League, Makalamby (£100K) and Nish (£100k)

So by looking at those list of players and money spent, I think the 3rd, 4th and 5th option players are definitely a no go.

So we spent more on the players who replaced Mowbray's side than Mowbray did getting them...yet they were crap. Who's fault is that?


Its a difficult one to judge as on paper they looked good choicesCollins - Talks a very good game and had the same philosophy on the game as Mowbray. Should have been a smooth transaction but instead it was the start of the decline into mediocrity. Was a risk giving him his first managerial job but it worked with TM. Unfortunately lightning didn't strike twiceMixu - Did well with Cowdenbeath and like TM and JC, liked football played the right way. Deserved a chance at Hibs and was quite a popular appointment at the time. Didn't work out with us but did well at Killie and now an international managerYogi - Again a popular choice. Did very well with no resources at Falkirk. Signed some good players and had us playing some good stuff but unfortunately he didn't have a plan B. Couldn't get us out of our slump and ultimately paid with his job.Calderwood - The only one i was perplexed about. Out the game with not many people having much good to say about him. Terrible appointment for many reasons and the only one i blamee Petrie for.Fenlon - Not a Petrie appointment. He left it to other board members and rightly so. Unfortunately for Pat he has had the hardest job of the last 5 because of his predecessor. He took control of a group of players heading to division one with zero confidence and kept us up with the help of a few loan signings. Again he had to rebuild and gave us some stability which we hadn't had in years. We now have a strong squad with good players at this level. Some of his tactics are suspect but we are in a better place now than we have been in a long long time. If Pats contract is not renewed he will at least have left a solid platform for the next guy.

Folklore has it that when the Stevie 'Mikey says put your mortgage on it' Clarke deal fell through, we had farted around getting a manager for so long, we had to act fast. Calderwood was contacted on the friday and given the job on the Sunday. The ultimate panic buy.