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superfurryhibby
09-10-2013, 12:08 PM
I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Treadstone
09-10-2013, 12:19 PM
I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Plenty teams do it but not usually in a four four two. They usually have genuine wide men and overlapping full backs so protecting a back four can be crucial. I too would like to see either Robertson or Craig in the centre probably more so Robertson as Craig is still effective where he is currently playing. Scotts game has suffered being asked to play where he is but does give his all for the team. PF won't be changing it against Celtic though.

Andy74
09-10-2013, 12:22 PM
I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

Ozyhibby
09-10-2013, 12:24 PM
Loads of teams do it now, usually with inverted wingers and overlapping fullbacks and rarely with two strikers.
It's the overlapping full backs we have never had.

hfc_chris
09-10-2013, 12:28 PM
Loads of teams do it now, usually with inverted wingers and overlapping fullbacks and rarely with two strikers.
It's the overlapping full backs we have never had.

Not since the David Murphy and Steven Whittaker days!

patlowe
09-10-2013, 12:31 PM
I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Personally I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing two defensive midfielders but it should all depend on what kind of players you have in the other midfield/forward positions. This should also be balanced against the playmaking abilities of the holding midfielders selected. For me, two disciplined defensive midfielders can be really effective if you have a goal-scoring floating 'number 10', two good wingers and a hard working centre forward. However, we tend to play two defensive midfielders and two slightly less defensive midfielders out wide.

Maybe a tad too attacking for some but perhaps we could go with something like:

Tudor Jones Thomson

Craig
Zoubir Harris

Heffernan/Collins

Edit: Not sure how to format it properly but Craig is in front of the midfield two, with Zoubir and Harris as wingers.

JimBHibees
09-10-2013, 12:45 PM
Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

I agree, dont think Thomson could be classed as that at all. They dont get forward very much that is for sure. You would think one could go and one could sit but dont see that happening very often.

MWHIBBIES
09-10-2013, 12:48 PM
Bayern won the champions league with Schweinsteiger and Gustavo/Martinez sitting last season.

TowerHibs
09-10-2013, 12:56 PM
plenty teams do it yeah.....no one expcept us though in Scotland.

Game is far to fast to allow for 2 defensive holding midfielders. Hence why we are slow and pedestrian going forward

cabbageandribs1875
09-10-2013, 12:59 PM
Bayern won the champions league with Schweinsteiger and Gustavo/Martinez sitting last season.



lazy gits :bitchy:

MWHIBBIES
09-10-2013, 01:00 PM
lazy gits :bitchy::greengrin

Kato
09-10-2013, 01:01 PM
Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

They are totally dedicated to being defensive players, this means they physically incapable of passing forward or moving into forward positions (when you are playing a computer game).

Pretty Boy
09-10-2013, 01:17 PM
I don't think we play 2 players as sitting midfielders we just play 2 players who like to sit.

I suppose one solution may be to drop 1 of Thomson or Taiwo, move Robertson to the centre and play Zoubir wide. Although that won't work every week.

A case of horses for course perhaps.

superfurryhibby
09-10-2013, 01:18 PM
Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

Never played football manager.

I think the key might be in the bit where I suggested that neither Thomson or Taiwo are able to get forward and link with the strikers or go beyond them and create some goal menace. I wondered what Fenlon feels the gameplan is with the obvious limitations of both players in terms of their attacking abilities.

I thought it was more traditional to combine central midfield with one defensive midfielder and a player with who knew how to try and score a goal or two maybe?

Anyone able to try and explain Fenlon's logic here or is that kind of analysis beyond us mere football supporting mortals

hibees 7062
09-10-2013, 01:21 PM
plenty teams do it yeah.....no one expcept us though in Scotland.

Game is far to fast to allow for 2 defensive holding midfielders. Hence why we are slow and pedestrian going forward

Are the yams not doing it ?

TowerHibs
09-10-2013, 01:24 PM
Are the yams not doing it ?

not sure but if that is the case then i'm sure it's because they don't have a choice. Robinson in paper today slating Locke for his tactics and you can hardly say the Yams set the place on fire in an attacking sense

Ozyhibby
09-10-2013, 01:24 PM
plenty teams do it yeah.....no one expcept us though in Scotland.

Game is far to fast to allow for 2 defensive holding midfielders. Hence why we are slow and pedestrian going forward

So the top European sides that use this system would struggle in Scotland? Why are we not doing better in Europe then?

Treadstone
09-10-2013, 01:28 PM
Anyone able to try and explain Fenlon's logic here or is that kind of analysis beyond us mere football supporting mortals

Its his default position. We are a predictable team to line up against.

Mr White
09-10-2013, 01:53 PM
Did we go 4-1-4-1 on Monday once zoubir and otj replaced Collins and tt? Looked like it to me, kt seemed to be playing a bit further forward with otj in behind?

BVB Hibs
09-10-2013, 01:53 PM
In fairness, having two deep midfielders is an effective way of approaching a game. However, you need 2 different types of players, one ball winner, and one deep lying playmaker. Obviously the playmaker still needs to be able to make a tackle, or he's a bit useless in that position, but the idea of one player sitting deep, winning the ball and giving it to out sideways to the other defensive midfielder has it's merits. We don't really need a midfielder to come in and score goals, which is why Craig would be pretty useless in the centre if we continue playing a 4-4-2. It's all about being able to thread the ball into an advanced position, so the wingers can stick in a cross, or so the forwards gain possession in the attacking third, able to lay off to create the chance. In America they have a stat called a second assist, which is the pass that is given to create the assist. That's exactly the stat you're going for with a two deep men, and I actually think it's the right tactic to take as our front 4 in a 4-4-2 are actually quite decent and do a good job in an advanced position. The issue is that we have nobody to fulfil this role. OTJ, KT and Taiwo are all defensive midfielders, but none of them the type that will be able to put a 40 yard ball onto the foot of a winger to attack down the flank. Times like this I'd love to have Claros back.

Treadstone
09-10-2013, 02:02 PM
In America they have a stat called a second assist, which is the pass that is given to create the assist. That's exactly the stat you're going for with a two deep men, and I actually think it's the right tactic to take as our front 4 in a 4-4-2 are actually quite decent and do a good job in an advanced position. The issue is that we have nobody to fulfil this role.

Confused as why this would be 'the right tactic' considering you also say we have nobody to fulfil this role ?

Stringer
09-10-2013, 02:02 PM
I think we should attack teams, with our wealth of CMs we should play 4 1 4 1

OTJ

Zoubir. Robertson. KT Craig.

Collins

Andy74
09-10-2013, 02:04 PM
I think we should attack teams, with our wealth of CMs we should play 4 1 4 1

OTJ

Zoubir. Robertson. KT Craig.

Collins

Attack teams by removing our best striker?

Jones28
09-10-2013, 02:05 PM
I think we should attack teams, with our wealth of CMs we should play 4 1 4 1

OTJ

Zoubir. Robertson. KT Craig.

Collins

Quite like that :agree:

J-C
09-10-2013, 02:09 PM
I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Usually played with a 4-2-3-1 formation, the 2 holding players are generally just good solid midfielders who help protect the back 4, when 1 goes forward in attack the other will stay back and act as defensive cover and vice versa.

We have the personnel to play this system but Fenlon will never be attack minded enough to use it

Williams

Maybury
McPake/whoever
Hanlon
McGivern/Stevenson

Taiwo/OTJ
Thomson/OTJ

Zoubir/Vine
Craig/Robertson/Cairney
Harris/Craig/Cairney

Collins/Heffernan

IWasThere2016
09-10-2013, 02:26 PM
Two's fine if you plenty pace and flair in the other 4 positions - something we don't have.

Brightside
09-10-2013, 02:30 PM
Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for!

Nope they are not just CM. He plays a flat 4 thats the problem. In a flat 4 system the 2 CM sit direct in front of the CBs. you then have a LM and RM but critically you have no creative midfielder... The game is then reliant on movement through the wings. But Robertson and Craig are also not natural wingers so this fails and we end up with a static midfield which will often get bypassed by long balls from CB to CF. Hope that helps. "Coaching for Dummies" (No offence intended to anyone on the forum)

J-C
09-10-2013, 02:38 PM
Nope they are not just CM. He plays a flat 4 thats the problem. In a flat 4 system the 2 CM sit direct in front of the CBs. you then have a LM and RM but critically you have no creative midfielder... The game is then reliant on movement through the wings. But Robertson and Craig are also not natural wingers so this fails and we end up with a static midfield which will often get bypassed by long balls from CB to CF. Hope that helps. "Coaching for Dummies" (No offence intended to anyone on the forum)

Exactly why very few teams play a 4-4-2 nowadays, it's old hat and the game has moved on. Take a look at Arsenal, they play a 4-2-3-1 with Ozil in the whole behind the striker, Rooney plays the same at Man U, just behind RVP, they both play with 2 wide men(with pace).

We had Harris and we cried out for more pace out wide, Zoubir was a late panic buy because Harris was injured, we need 3 wide men(1 for cover) with pace and at the moment we have 1, who's not allowed onto the pitch until the 60th minute at the earliest.

Feed McGraw
09-10-2013, 02:52 PM
Aren't they just central midfielders? Football Manager has a few things to answer for! Yeah they are, but only the central bit of their own half. :greengrin

Andy74
09-10-2013, 02:57 PM
Nope they are not just CM. He plays a flat 4 thats the problem. In a flat 4 system the 2 CM sit direct in front of the CBs. you then have a LM and RM but critically you have no creative midfielder... The game is then reliant on movement through the wings. But Robertson and Craig are also not natural wingers so this fails and we end up with a static midfield which will often get bypassed by long balls from CB to CF. Hope that helps. "Coaching for Dummies" (No offence intended to anyone on the forum)

Helps with what you think you are seeing, so yes. :greengrin

Brightside
09-10-2013, 03:21 PM
Helps with what you think you are seeing, so yes. :greengrin

hahaha. Thats exactly what we are seeing in most games. Cmon Andy please tell me you can see that too.
4231 or 4141 is what we should be playing with teh squad we have... we really dont suit 4442 with the current personnel.

patlowe
09-10-2013, 03:33 PM
hahaha. Thats exactly what we are seeing in most games. Cmon Andy please tell me you can see that too.
4231 or 4141 is what we should be playing with teh squad we have... we really dont suit 4442 with the current personnel.

I completely agree with this (see my previous post). The problem is that when Fenlon plays one up top it's in such a manner that the centre forward receives next to no support from the midfield and we are left playing long, hopeful balls to an increasingly frustrated striker. If this happens the fans will get on his back again, "it's a disgrace for Hibs to play one upfront at home" etc, and he'll revert back to 4-4-2.

Fergus52
09-10-2013, 03:37 PM
Personally I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing two defensive midfielders but it should all depend on what kind of players you have in the other midfield/forward positions. This should also be balanced against the playmaking abilities of the holding midfielders selected. For me, two disciplined defensive midfielders can be really effective if you have a goal-scoring floating 'number 10', two good wingers and a hard working centre forward. However, we tend to play two defensive midfielders and two slightly less defensive midfielders out wide.

Maybe a tad too attacking for some but perhaps we could go with something like:

Tudor Jones Thomson

Craig
Zoubir Harris

Heffernan/Collins

Edit: Not sure how to format it properly but Craig is in front of the midfield two, with Zoubir and Harris as wingers.


so a 4231 basically?

I was thinking that would probably be our strongest team too.

With thomson and any one of robertson tawio or OTJ holding, Craig in the middle and Harris and Zoubir out wide, pretty strong IMO.

hibees 7062
09-10-2013, 03:46 PM
hahaha. Thats exactly what we are seeing in most games. Cmon Andy please tell me you can see that too.
4231 or 4141 is what we should be playing with teh squad we have... we really dont suit 4442 with the current personnel.

We would lose the points for cheating if we won :wink:

BVB Hibs
09-10-2013, 03:52 PM
Confused as why this would be 'the right tactic' considering you also say we have nobody to fulfil this role ?

The idea of a deep player to win the ball in the midfield, with a man beside him to feed the ball to our front four in advanced positions is the right tactic. This is because I reckon our defence could do with the cover, and because I think our 4 front men in a 4-4-2 (especially when Harris comes back) bearing down on any defence in the SPFL is going to cause major difficulties.

But, we don't have the player to fulfil that role. We have nobody who can play the ball in the right areas for us to end up in 4 on 4 or 4-3 situations. If we did, I reckon we'd be making most effective use of the players we have at our disposal, outwith the deep lying playmaker position. Just because I think it's the best tactic for Hibs to approach a game, doesn't mean it should be done, especially with the players currently at our disposal. I did mention I wanted Claros back, as I think he'd fulfil the role well. Picking up somebody decent for that position in January would open new doors to us I feel. Unfortunately, we have too many players for that position, so acquiring another DM, even one who'll add something different, is pretty unlikely.

patlowe
09-10-2013, 03:54 PM
so a 4231 basically?

I was thinking that would probably be our strongest team too.

With thomson and any one of robertson tawio or OTJ holding, Craig in the middle and Harris and Zoubir out wide, pretty strong IMO.

Yep, pretty much :greengrin it's all about flexibility and an emphasis on attack for me!

Andy74
09-10-2013, 04:11 PM
hahaha. Thats exactly what we are seeing in most games. Cmon Andy please tell me you can see that too.
4231 or 4141 is what we should be playing with teh squad we have... we really dont suit 4442 with the current personnel.

I think Heff and Collins have linked pretty well. Not the other night, or maybe at Inverness either, granted.

I think when we have played at our best, it's been with the 442.

TowerHibs
09-10-2013, 04:37 PM
So the top European sides that use this system would struggle in Scotland? Why are we not doing better in Europe then?

Strange post - sure the top teams in europe will do well in any league. And we have only played 2 games in europe and got thumped (we also played 442 in that)

Game in scotland is faster played by players with lower skill. Balls into channels are common with, pressing all over park just makes 2 holding midfielders a.waste of a jersey.

Le Guen tried it at rangers, failed. Mogga at celtic, failed. U need at least 2 quality wingers/attacking midfielder and an outstanding centre forward. Can u name last time anyone had that in scotland???

ancient hibee
09-10-2013, 05:27 PM
Surely the reason we have 2 defensive midfielders is because PF hasn't been able to play his first choice(or even 2nd choice)defence yet and if there is one thing certain about football it's that if we don't lose a goal we'll take something from the game-the same doesn't apply to scoring a goal.

RIP
09-10-2013, 09:11 PM
The games we've won we have had both Maybury and Stevenson overlapping.

When McGivern overlaps he gets caught out if position and lopes back exposing Hanlon.

Stevenson recovers more quickly on the left than on the right, so losing Maybury is a double whammy

SunshineOnLeith
09-10-2013, 10:29 PM
Maybe it was because we were away from home against a better footballing side that us?

And it worked. However eye-bleedingly.

HibeeHutch
09-10-2013, 10:46 PM
I agree.

I would really like us to try (when everyone is fit) the formation below. OTD acting as a very defensive midfielder, shielding a back 3 and covering/linking with our midfield. Sick of the hoof ball from players who can't compose themselves and play football (Stevenson, McGivern, Hanlon).

Forster
McPake (Ball Winner)
Clancy

OTJ (Ball Player)

Zoubir
Thomson
Robertson
Craig

Heffernen
Collins

Unseen work
09-10-2013, 11:45 PM
I agree.

I would really like us to try (when everyone is fit) the formation below. OTD acting as a very defensive midfielder, shielding a back 3 and covering/linking with our midfield. Sick of the hoof ball from players who can't compose themselves and play football (Stevenson, McGivern, Hanlon).

Forster
McPake (Ball Winner)
Clancy

OTJ (Ball Player)

Zoubir
Thomson
Robertson
Craig

Heffernen
Collins


Would definitely have either of them 3 mention play rather than Clancy and think they are all better on the ball than him IMO. To me right now Hanlon is first choice centre back

MrRobot
10-10-2013, 08:17 AM
Thomson
Robertson Craig Harris/Zoubir
Heffernan Collins

Brightside
10-10-2013, 08:34 AM
I think Heff and Collins have linked pretty well. Not the other night, or maybe at Inverness either, granted.

I think when we have played at our best, it's been with the 442.

We played 4141 when Zouby came on during the Thistle game. Its not about the strikers linking well (which i also think they do) but in the flat 442 that Fenlon plays those guys dont get the balls needed to win games. A 442 is fine as long as we dont play is flat - you dont need Thomson and Tiawo in the same team unless you are playing for a 0-0 away from home.

Brightside
10-10-2013, 08:53 AM
Would definitely have either of them 3 mention play rather than Clancy and think they are all better on the ball than him IMO. To me right now Hanlon is first choice centre back

Exactly and the only ball player in defence.

Aldo
10-10-2013, 09:45 AM
Would definitely have either of them 3 mention play rather than Clancy and think they are all better on the ball than him IMO. To me right now Hanlon is first choice centre back

Have to agree with you re Hanlon. Not the finished article but once again proving to be the best CH we have at club at this moment in time.

Takes a lot of stick on here at times.

Andy74
10-10-2013, 10:46 AM
We played 4141 when Zouby came on during the Thistle game. Its not about the strikers linking well (which i also think they do) but in the flat 442 that Fenlon plays those guys dont get the balls needed to win games. A 442 is fine as long as we dont play is flat - you dont need Thomson and Tiawo in the same team unless you are playing for a 0-0 away from home.

So how did we manage in the St Johnsone and St Mirren games which were probably our best recent performances?

Kato
10-10-2013, 10:50 AM
So how did we manage in the St Johnsone and St Mirren games which were probably our best recent performances?

Don't ask complicated questions like that. It puts people's opinions at odds.

Brightside
10-10-2013, 11:36 AM
So how did we manage in the St Johnsone and St Mirren games which were probably our best recent performances?

Maybury played and we pushed up with the full backs. Also Taiwo played much further forward against St Mirren. As i said IF we play at Flat 4 we are wasting our time.

The Sea-gull
10-10-2013, 11:58 AM
Funny as I mentioned a few weeks back that while I though the midfield of Robertson - Taiwo - Thomson - Craig was doing well, I also felt it wasn't for the long term as it lacks balance.

Yes, it did well v St Johnstone and St Mirren though I would say that St Mirren were even poorer than we were against Partick the other night.

It has not performed v ICT and Partick so I suppose that is two good games and two bad games so it should not be ruled out just yet.

I still feel we would be better utilising Robertson's strengths in the middle to offer a bit more of a contrast as KT and TT are very similar. For me it has to be TT who drops out and then we bring in Zoubir on the right though maybe he is not ready and/or would be too cavileer. Could give it a try at least.

I still don't really think Craig is an out and out wide midfielder but he is getting a decent return out there. We could mix it up a bit and paly a 4-3-3 with Thomson sitting and Craig and Robertson either side of him. Then give Zoubir - Heffernan - Vine a chance up top. Harris and Handling could come into contention when they are fit. A very attacking approach and might not work every week but could be worth a try now and again.

Dinkydoo
10-10-2013, 12:09 PM
If we have two defensive 'type' Centre midfielders then we absolutely must have quick guys on the wings to support the forwards - and the holding midfielders need to be prepared to do a hell of a lot of work in the engine room to win and retain possession, and turn defence into attack by getting the ball played quickly out to the winger's feet.


------------Thomson---Craig-----------

Harris-----------------------------Zoubir

---------Collins--------Heff----------


In place of Harris and Zoubir Fenlon plays Robertson and Craig, who are not wingers.

Harris is injured but why not play Handling instead of Robertson?

The Sea-gull
10-10-2013, 12:24 PM
If we have two defensive 'type' Centre midfielders then we absolutely must have quick guys on the wings to support the forwards - and the holding midfielders need to be prepared to do a hell of a lot of work in the engine room to win and retain possession, and turn defence into attack by getting the ball played quickly out to the winger's feet.


------------Thomson---Craig-----------

Harris-----------------------------Zoubir

---------Collins--------Heff----------


In place of Harris and Zoubir Fenlon plays Robertson and Craig, who are not wingers.

Harris is injured but why not play Handling instead of Robertson?

Handling is injured too is he not? He was getting some game time before he got injured. In fairness to PF, maybe he is a bit hamstrung selection wise as of his wide options (Harris, Zoubir, Cairney, Handling, Mullen and Vine) three are injured (Harris, Cairney, Handling), two are a wee bit off form/a bit untested (Vine and Mullen) and one (Zoubir) is coming into a new league and a new country. That said, Zoubir is only here for a season and we can't wait forever for him to get up to speed. Need to start using him a bit more, step up his involvement and maybe we will in the coming games.

J-C
10-10-2013, 12:28 PM
If we have two defensive 'type' Centre midfielders then we absolutely must have quick guys on the wings to support the forwards - and the holding midfielders need to be prepared to do a hell of a lot of work in the engine room to win and retain possession, and turn defence into attack by getting the ball played quickly out to the winger's feet.


------------Thomson---Craig-----------

Harris-----------------------------Zoubir

---------Collins--------Heff----------


In place of Harris and Zoubir Fenlon plays Robertson and Craig, who are not wingers.

Harris is injured but why not play Handling instead of Robertson?

Unfortunately with that formation we get overran in midfield, hence why we can't play with 2 strikers up top, we need an attacking mid to link with the striker, Craig.

Winston Ingram
10-10-2013, 12:33 PM
I wondered if folks could give their thoughts on why Fenlon persists with the notion of playing two defensive midfielders in the centre midfield positions? I can't pretend to have any profound tactical awareness, but it seems fairly apparent to me that we need someone who can link and break past forwards from the centre midfield position, especially if we persist with playing other central midfielders out wide.

What would happen if we played someone like Craig or Robertson alongside Thomson in the centre midffield role?

Is this a pattern that's reflected in other teams formations or is it Fenlon's inate over-cautious approach that we reflected here?

Absoultely baffles me. This coupled with fact that Craig & Robertson aren't wide players usually results in the midfield spending the vast amjority of the match 50 yards away from the strikers:agree:

Speedway
10-10-2013, 01:23 PM
Quite clearly we've signed players for specific roles.

Right now we have Taiwo sitting and Thommo holding.

Robbo's crouching whilst Craig is hopping. Hanlon is honking.


What we need to do is have Thommo sitting with Robbo shifting, Harris speeding and Zouby tricking once Craig is gasping.

That's the way forward.

ancient hibee
10-10-2013, 05:57 PM
Absoultely baffles me. This coupled with fact that Craig & Robertson aren't wide players usually results in the midfield spending the vast amjority of the match 50 yards away from the strikers:agree:

Would I be right in thinking that with this baffling formation Craig is the top scoring midfielder in the league?

IWasThere2016
10-10-2013, 06:26 PM
Would I be right in thinking that with this baffling formation Craig is the top scoring midfielder in the league?

And how's the team Goals For total doing???

leggeto
10-10-2013, 06:52 PM
Not too bad as long as Craig supports and chips in with a few goals

Brightside
11-10-2013, 08:31 AM
Maybe it was because we were away from home against a better footballing side that us?

And it worked. However eye-bleedingly.

And if anyone on this forum thinks thats acceptable Im ashamed.

marinello59
11-10-2013, 08:38 AM
And if anyone on this forum thinks thats acceptable Im ashamed.

If we adopted those tactics at Parkhead and came away with three points this forum will be a no go zone for you then, the shame would be unbearable.

Brightside
11-10-2013, 09:43 AM
If we adopted those tactics Parkhead and came away with three points this forum will be a no go zone for you then, the shame would be unbearable.

Aye very good... it was PARTICK THISTLE!

leggeto
11-10-2013, 10:22 AM
Aye very good... it was PARTICK THISTLE!

the mighty jags;-)

flash
11-10-2013, 10:24 AM
the mighty jags;-)

i hear they have a better shop than us.

marinello59
11-10-2013, 10:25 AM
Aye very good... it was PARTICK THISTLE!

Why don't you read back what you replied to?
So it's not the tactics or style of play you have an issue with but the fact that we got three points using them against a team you see as beneath us?

Alex Trager
11-10-2013, 10:43 AM
I've read about half of the first page of this thread, and have found there to be exactly what I have been saying for some while appearing time and time again. It's obvious, then, that most can see where our lack of creativity is coming from. I said last night that I would play, when Harris is back, him on one wing, Zoubir on the other with Heffernan up top on his own with Craig/Cairney behind him then Thomson and Tudor-Jones or Taiwo, from what I seen on Monday probably the former. That for me would be a decent side, if not as others have said, I would bring Robertson/Craig into the middle and put Zoubir in one of their places. Taiwo is brutal to watch now, I used to think he was ok but it is a no no for me, out of the two Thomson is better at going forward, rarely I know, but more so than Taiwo.

Brightside
11-10-2013, 10:51 AM
Why don't you read back what you replied to?
So it's not the tactics or style of play you have an issue with but the fact that we got three points using them against a team you see as beneath us?

for the love of the wee man... as i have said YES playing a flat 4 can be handy against proper sides. IF we are really saying that we are not able to take a game to partick Thistle then our future is brutal. Its not about 3 points. No one wants to watch that kind of football. IT MUST CHANGE.

GreenCastle
11-10-2013, 11:04 AM
We can talk all day about formations and tactics -but the crunch of the matter is the philosophy Fenlon seems to have - he want's us to be hard to beat / hard to score against.

Now this is not the worst idea - simply if you don't concede you won't lose but we have a few problems. We don't have the most reliable defenders - once we get the ball we usually seem to worried about defending / being hit on counter we aren't being creative enough or taking chances in the middle to final 3rds. Therefore we end up with close wins or dull draws / easy beatings.

The reason teams started with 1 holding midfield -the Makelele role / Matty Jack role was to stop opposition strikers who played in between the lines - in between the back 4 and midfield 4. Now teams deploy 2 to keep the balance and screen in front as well as sometimes behind. If your playing against players like Messi sometimes it helps...(usually not as Messi is a genius anyway!).

In the SPL I believe we would win more than we lose if we actually were more attacking all over the pitch - the fans could also accept a defeat once in a while if we went for it. The problem lies when every 1st half is dull viewing usually 0v0 or we are 1v0 down and we have to by default come out and attack more 2nd half and usually do ok or if we are playing a better team we lose 3v0 onwards as it's too hard to get back into the game.

If the team is to improve we should be looking at a better player than Nelson who can pass the ball and retain it for longer periods of time.

A midfielder who can pick a final pass - not Ozil but we have Thompson and Craig who can pass the ball well - Thompson passes the ball well but not enough assists to his game. Craig played better when he was the key man in midfield.

Wide players who can stretch the pitch and allow space for midfielders and strikers to link up / provide an outlet out wide.

Fenlon claims he's not defensive but it's clearly obvious players don't play with complete freedom and it's restricting our progress.

marinello59
11-10-2013, 02:31 PM
for the love of the wee man... as i have said YES playing a flat 4 can be handy against proper sides. IF we are really saying that we are not able to take a game to partick Thistle then our future is brutal. Its not about 3 points. No one wants to watch that kind of football. IT MUST CHANGE.

Aye, we should just turn up to beat those diddy teams eh?
There have been 35 league draws between us and Thistle, they have beaten us 63 times and we have beaten them 83 times That doesn't suggest we have ever enjoyed any sort of real dominance against them does it? I hated the fitba we played the other night but some of the stuff being typed on here since is totally out of proportion. People seem to be trying to outdo each other in how outraged they were and as the week goes on our performance gets worse.
As for your last point...that brings us back to my original comment to you. Would it be acceptable to play that style of fitba and tactics at Parkhead if we left with three points? If it's not about 3 points against what you see as lesser teams then I take it taking 3 points from Parkhead in that manner would not be acceptable.

leggeto
12-10-2013, 08:08 AM
i hear they have a better shop than us.

wonder if chico works there

SunshineOnLeith
12-10-2013, 12:42 PM
Fenlon out, underscore in.

Del Boy
13-10-2013, 03:14 PM
Dundee United play 2 sitting midfielders in Paton and Rankin, then 4 attacking players ahead from Armstrong, GMS, Ciftci, Gauld and Goodwillie.

Dinkydoo
13-10-2013, 06:32 PM
Handling is injured too is he not?

I forgot about that.

Dinkydoo
13-10-2013, 06:36 PM
Unfortunately with that formation we get overran in midfield, hence why we can't play with 2 strikers up top, we need an attacking mid to link with the striker, Craig.

Maybe this then;


------Thomson--------Taiwo------

---------------Craig-----------------
Harris--------------------------Zoubir
-------------Heffernan---------------

If Harris was fit that is.

Craig has the ability to attack the ball and put in a good defensive shift; a player like that utilised correctly could orchestrate from a more central position than we've been using him whilst allowing Zoubir/Harris to run at defenders.

I don't see what Fenlon thinks Robertson gives us that he needs to be starting every week.

J-C
13-10-2013, 10:00 PM
Maybe this then;


------Thomson--------Taiwo------

---------------Craig-----------------
Harris--------------------------Zoubir
-------------Heffernan---------------

If Harris was fit that is.

Craig has the ability to attack the ball and put in a good defensive shift; a player like that utilised correctly could orchestrate from a more central position than we've been using him whilst allowing Zoubir/Harris to run at defenders.

I don't see what Fenlon thinks Robertson gives us that he needs to be starting every week.

That's the team I've been harping about for weeks, OTJ, Cairney and Collins to come in at DM, LW and CF. Robertson is a box to box player who can also chip in with a few goals, his energy is a big plus for him and could do a job as attacking mid.

NorthNorfolkHFC
14-10-2013, 09:00 AM
Unfortunately with that formation we get overran in midfield, hence why we can't play with 2 strikers up top, we need an attacking mid to link with the striker, Craig.

We haven't tried though.

I like Heffernan but I also think we could be better with.

Thomson
Robertson Craig
Zoubir. Harris
Collins

That way we don't get overrun?